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Dick Cheney’s Torture Delusion Destroyed by Timeline

Dick Cheney continues to insist that “enhanced interrogation” kept Americans safe and, until now, has had some success pushing this nonsense. But if you examine the timeline for Abu Zubaydah from the time he was captured until he was subjected to American-style torture you will realize that Dick Cheney is completely, utterly full of shit.

Let’s start with the canard that the techniques employed are part of SERE training. SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) is the acronym for a training program for military and intelligence officers designed to simulate what might happen if one is captured by tyrants who ignore the Geneva Conventions.

What is the number one thing you are taught in the SERE program if you are captured?

Delay for as long as possible in giving up information. Are you familiar with Bravo Two Zero? It is both a book and a movie recounting the events surrounding the capture and torture of a British Special Ops unit in Iraq during 1991. The author, Andy McNabb, recounts in detail the SERE strategy for giving out information in snippets and buying time. Why? Intelligence is perishable. Once a combatant/terrorist is captured any information they have starts to degrade with the passage of time. If the prisoner is no longer in touch with their chain of command they will not know about changes in plans in operations.

Those who endure SERE training go in with the expectation of trying to hold out for at least 48 hours in divulging any information. Got that? 48 HOURS!!!

So let’s look at the case of Abu Zubaydah. He was captured in March of 2002. He was interrogated starting in March of 2002 by the FBI (Ali Soufan). The FBI interrogation, which conformed to U.S. legal standards continued in April, May and June. Sometime in June the CIA intervened and tossed the FBI out. July? Nothing. August? The Department of Justice releases the infamous memo authorizing the so-called “enhanced” interrogation techniques. But these methods supposedly are not employed until September 2002.

That is more than SIX MONTHS since the capture of Abu Zubaydah. If we go stictly by SERE standards, Zubaydah no longer had relevant actionable intelligence justifying extreme interrogation techniques. His information at best was dated. It may have been useful in compiling a historical picture of Al Qaeda operations but it was not time-sensitive, ticking-timebomb kind of information.

Dick Cheney is lying when he insists that enhanced interrogation was critical in extracting essential information from Abu Zubaydah. His explanation would make sense if Zubaydah was subjected to these techniques in the first week of captivity. But that did not happen. The CIA reports that six months passed before Zubaydah was tortured. Perhaps the CIA is lying about the time. Maybe they started down this path in July. Even if that is true we are still talking about three months elapsing between the date of capture and the date of torture.

When you look at the timeline it becomes clear that Dick Cheney does not know what he is talking about and is indulging some kind of TV fantasy. Waterboarding someone six months after they were captured is an illegal and unnecessary descent into brutality. The fact that Cheney insists on embracing such techniques informs us of the kind of tyrant he is at heart. Good riddance Dick.

  • termo

    “Dick Cheney continues to insist that “enhanced interrogation” kept Americans safe and, until now, has had some success pushing this nonsense.”

    The answer to this: release ALL the information concerning the use of harsh interrogation on all three Al Qaeda terrorists. It has been over 6 or 7 years so how sensitive could that information be now? Afterall we are no longer engaged in a “war on terror.”

    By intentionally withholding only that information, Obama and his cadre of socialists bring suspicion on themselves and what was actually learned and give Cheney greater credibility.

    Otherwise, this is a useless parlor game of “what if” and reckless name calling.

    • Doc99

      And isn’t it interesting that Cheney’s is the loudest voice favoring release of all the memos?

      • tminu

        And isn’t it interesting that Obama did not mention during his speech, the foiled plot to blow up a NYC Synagogue? And isn’t it interesting that Obama continues to refuse permission to release the remaining memos?
        Obviously Obama is hiding any successes, and hiding the continued dangers.

        Obama wants to mix radicals in with the American prison population, and this radicalization mixture has produced some of the very worst terrorists.

        Obama is still obviously guilty of treason and is working to try and bring on more terror attacks.

      • Dawnelle

        Dick Cheney is completely, utterly full of shit.

        Larry, nuff said.

        Except, in this house we don’t speak his name

        (evil words never spoken here)

        the ONLY people that actually believe a WORD that comes out of “it’s” mouth are his minions of the dark.

        the ONLY 2 people I would swear could get away with shooting someone in the face would be our X-VP and NEW CIC

        spawn

    • DefiantOne

      Stamp.

      The fact is we don’t know who’s telling the truth until Obama releases all the information, which he will not do.

      I assume he won’t do it because (God forgive me) Cheney is right?

      Obama opened up this Pandora’s Box, now he needs to man up and release the rest of the memos. Until that time, Cheney is pwning him.

      He can’t cherry pick: release the rest of the doggone memos!

      • Murray

        Def

        Let it go. He will release nothing. Just because the ex-vice-president is providing a little PR challenge? That’s nothing.

        He won’t even release his birth certificate.

        • tminu

          We should never, ever, never let it go.

      • http://noquarter foxyladi14

        along with all those other papers we want to see,beginning with the b,c,

        • Dawnelle

          I want the college transcripts

          I want to see if Barry Sore-TOES entered his COLLEGE years on some GRAND GRANT given out to FOREIGN EXCHANGE students or some GIFT package of foreign student AIDE

          then I want to see him (worm) twist and try to explain how THAT was somehow OK????

          maybe he really IS AMERICAN
          but he’s a HUGE HUGE SCAM ARTIST

    • James Guglielmino

      Oh, my GOSH, we can’t have those socialists providing any information that would clarify what the nazis preceeding them did, can we….God, you are cute. Obama is a socialist like I am in the CIA. Larry, don’t out me.
      Gug

    • KmX

      Perhaps Obama should just rename Guantanomo Bay and be done with it. I am sure his PR unit can come up with a great campaign strategy to rebrand Guantanaomo Bay. Here is my suggestion: Peace Instutitute for Reform Learning. lol

      • dcmediagirl

        KmX: You’re an absolute genius. If the euphamism “enhanced interrogation technique” has replaced “torture” thereby stripping the term of its brutal reality, why the hell not re-name Guantanamo? Brilliant!

  • Paco

    Good to see you begin to carry the water for Oba-Mao like a good little Demmie.

    I’m disappointed in you, I had learned to expect more.

    • Rob G in Chicago

      Paco:

      This isn’t a Democrat/Republican thing. This is a person who understands and appreciates the U.S. Constitution, and the oath of office to uphold and protect the U.S. Constitution (the oath says nothing about protecting the U.S. or its scared citizenry) vs. a draft dodging, lawyer/friend shooting, lying weasel with regal delusions who understands only the stoking of fear and crapping all over the Constitution and the laws of the United States for his own political and economic advantage.

      • Zoom

        Amen to that.
        A lotta-love for Papa Cheney around here, but so far nobody has refuted Larry’s points and timeline.

        • tek

          Zoom: Don’t you think Cheney is out trying to defend the “Bush” administration’s national security methods because he’s getting nervous about being tried for war crimes? I wonder. And Bush says nothing because Cheney was running the show.

    • James Guglielmino

      Love it. The man proves that he isn’t all “hate Obama,” like you want him to be and you diss him. Where (fucking) wingnuts like you are concerned, a oersib blows all his bona fides, no matter how much he have spoken “the word,” if he demonstrates an ounce of open-mindedness. Thus, Colin Powell became Jack The Ripper when he supported Obama. People like you ought to be sent to live in “Darkisstan,” wherever that is (as long as it is cold and dark).

      • Karma

        No….now your timeline has some delusions.

        Colin Powell became ‘Jack the Ripper’ at the UN when he lied to get us into a war of convenience.

        Powell’s hands are bloodstained with real blood….not fake analogy blood.

        Of course, ‘Jack the Ripper’ Obama has even Powell beat because his hands are now stained with Pakistani blood.

        • morris1030

          Yes. When I heard Colin Powell lie at the UN, and watched him with his pointer as he enabled total untruths in the race to a war I was creeped out. The reasons for war were so frail fake intel was needed to creep out the public with fear. Remember the Nukes and other fantasies?

          Listen up, we are tired of Cheney’s fantasies and the GOP’s efforts to distract us by going after Pelosi about nada. It isn’t about Pelosi, as she’s the excuse to damage this administration. What else does the GOP have?

          At the moment they have Cheney. Yesterday’s herring wrapping.

    • Karma

      Snap out of it.

      Facts are facts.

    • whoisjohngalt

      If the Dems & Larry are so cock sure they are right, then let the House of Reps investigate. But no:

      http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98AOBGO0&show_article=1

      they are chicken & have something to hide.

      If we get attacked in the next 8 years & thousands die, then the Dems & Larry will have blood on their hands. The CIA will probably not care because they did try when more sane people respected them. Why bother now?

      • elise

        9/11 happened while Bush was president. Dick Cheney has lied to the American people for eight long years. Why is he still in Washington still trying to vindicate decisions he and the Bush administration made? I have a hard time believing he is so worried about our safety he continues to insert himself into arguments he had years to present to the country.

        Obama’s release of the memos was politically motivated, but Mr Cheney should remember to be careful what he wishes for. On the other hand, Gault, I would be happy to see all of the documents re the war and torture declassified and exposed to the light of day and I don’t care who gets burned or which party pays.

        Cheney had the lowest approval of any VP in history. Even Republicans didn’t like him, but he is still peddling his lies.

  • JRD

    Sorry, Cheney wiped the floor with Dr. Utopia today!

    • Yeah Right

      I absolutely agree with you!!

    • http://noquarter foxyladi14

      he ate bo,s lunch with great gusto..

    • getfitnow

      I agree too. I’m no fan of Cheney and believe the Iraq war illegal. But the man has convictions–right or wrong. He absolutely stands up for what he believes. And the problem with BO is he has none. He’s an opportunist that stand for nothing. The “best administration ever” is looking weak and ridiculous. Black Agenda has a great read on BO and health care. He needs to be challenged on everything. Cheney seems to be the only one standing up.

      • Nellie

        getfitnow,

        This statement proves the contradictions being used in summary.

        I’m no fan of Cheney and believe the Iraq war illegal. But the man has convictions–right or wrong

        You know, the moderate founder of Muslim TV in Buffalo, NY, Muzzammil Hassan, also had convictions – right or wrong. He believes in his “rights” to

        1, discipline his wife as he sees fit;

        2. use of honor killings to salvage his “family name”;

        3. battering of females if they are not compliant and “supportive”

        4. Marital RAPE

        All beliefs still held in Pakistan today.

        According to the twisted logic of But the man has convictions–right or wrong then anyone who commits any heinous crime should not be prosecuted because of their beliefs !!!

        Do you see where that type of thinking leads and how many of you actually want to live in a society that results from such thinking? How can anyone term someone who believes in such atrocities be labeled “moderate” in any manner?

        http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024838.php

  • Yeah Right

    Larry, I find your analysis of Cheney’s speech AT BEST to be jaded!

    You take one part of his speech and want to dissect it and make strong attempts to beat him up, yet you give Obama’s false words HUGE praise!

    Your analysis of both speeches is something that I would expect to come from Keith Olbermann or Sean Hannity, (even though I like Hannity)he along with Olbermann are DEEP partisans who relishes on attacking the other party!

    The sad truth for me is that I trust Cheney more than I do Obama—- and believe you me, it is VERY hard to say something positive about Cheney!

    • Elle

      I second the notion of trusting Cheneys words over Obama and though taking note of the accomplishments of Cheney (few to note),I felt the security for our country was far more in check.

      • tek

        Elle: you have got to be kidding. Do ;you Bush/Cheney fans not realize that ANYONE can walk right across the Mexican border and bring ANYTHING they want into this country? No criminal check. No medical check. The terrorists could infect someone with a deadly virus and send them right into TX, CA, AZ and kill us all. If there really were lots of Muslim terrorists trying to destroy the U. S., we’d be dust by now.

        The Mexican drug cartels have figured out to work in conjunction with American street gangs who hate the U. S. Do you think these phantom Muslims would be any less savvy? Most all of this terrorist threat is nonsense, or the government is watching who’s coming across the border and ALLOWING Mexican criminals free entry.

        • getfitnow

          You’re right tek, but, the borders are still open and there’s no obvious plan to deal with this horrendous problem. that’s one of the problems with BO’s administration–they come up with all these new policies, but no strategy to enforce them. I guess they’re too busy dismantling the un derpinnings of our society.

      • James Guglielmino

        Ummmm, yeah. They arrogantly ignored the now known to be, plethora of warnings that we were going to be hit and you find that they made our nation more safe.

      • Nellie

        Elle and Yeah Right,

        It has been documented in so may ways _ Cheney WAS NOT worried about America’s Security Cheney was worried about his personal wealth and standing with oil concerns. When Bush took office in 2000 Halliburton’s stock was in the toilet.

        Cheney ginned up his war in Iraq for the purpose of pouring Billions of our tax dollars into Halliburton’s coffers, and to take care of his “oil buddies”

        To think otherwise is not only naive, but also very dangerous.

    • termo

      You are right (no pun intended).

      Obama and his cabal entered office swinging at everything that was Bush: from foreign policy to domestic policy. Former Bush administration sat back and did not defend themselves against an unprecendented assault by a new President.

      Until Cheney ended that.

      Since then, Obama and Democrats have been on the defensive with Obama actually reversing previous policy positions.

      I take exception with self-righteous left wingers who are outraged that anyone can say anything bad about Obama.

      • Elle

        Yes,”reversing previous policy positions” as the truth concealed is too hot to handle by the current administration and their credibility resembles a dirt ridden stick.

    • Diana

      I never got to hear Cheney’s speech. Has anyone got a link to the video or text of it? I’d like to read the whole thing. I can’t watch Hannity for long periods of time and he’d be partisan in his assessment of it anyway. I’d like to see or read it for myself so I can make my own decision on who I believe more. After all the lies we were fed during the primaries I’ve learned there is a lot of truth in the saying, “Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.” Especially when it comes to our politicians.

      • Juliet16
        • Diana

          Thank you Juliet. I don’t know what to think anymore. Cheney also made a lot of sense, but they didn’t do a very good job of protecting our borders either. Bin Laden went to school in San Diego. He knows as well as others that have been to school in CA that those borders are not protected. Not even close.

          If they were so concerned about an attack, why is it they didn’t protect those borders? How many illegals run across them every night…along with how many that want to harm this country, her citizens, that we have no idea about. We have no idea what their plans are because we have no idea who has come across that border. Nor what they brought with them. I would not hold Obama solely responsible for another attack on this country. The fingers will also point right back to Bush and Cheney.

  • Elle

    Pelosi is quite the expert in they ” Lying Department”.Cry wolf while covering the truth of the dems knowledge and passive standby approach.
    Credibility on that issue has long left the socialist gang.

  • trish

    Obama could release the information immediately. He refuses to do so because it contradicts the use of interrogation techniques HE wants to implement, even though he made it clear that the same interrogation tecniques of the Bush administration would be used if he saw a need for it. Obama talks out of both sides of his mouth.

    I am not a fan of Cheney, but he is more professional and precise than Obama ever will be.

    • Diana

      Ass. He talks out both sides of his Ass. Just wanted to fix that for you…;) And I agree, although I think a great deal of them do.

      • Murray

        HAHAHAHAHA!

        Thank you for clarifying that, Diana.

  • Diana L. C.

    The overwhelming evidence provided by all the posts here on NQ on the subject of torture make Cheney look like the Darth Vader or the Sith Lord he’s been called.

    The man’s the most evil man ever elected since I’ve been following politics.

  • Doc99

    In another CIA-related matter, Obama sides with Bush over Plame.

    • DefiantOne

      Shocker.

      Obama gives a speech this morning about how terrible Bush’s intelligence and CIA policies were…and then he continues them.

      Obama is full of crap!

    • Juliet16

      Anyone have any theories as to why Obama would do this?

      • http://noquarter foxyladi14

        he just reads the speeches.he doesn’t listen to them..lol.to busy waiting for the applause.

    • TeakwoodKite

      That would come under “Not gonna re-litgate, it woulkdn’t be prudent” clause.

      The Wilson’s were not falling all over BO and this is how his justice department shows a new found vigilance.

      Question; Why on Earth is BO protecting these folks?
      Answer: They own his marker.

    • Scout

      This makes me sick. What was done to Plame was despicable. It does not look to me that B0 will protect any American who is in true service to the country. He hates our country, IMHO.

      • TexasMirth

        He hates our country, IMHO.

        Based on Obama’s recent apology tour, I’m inclined to agree with you.

  • J_Gocht

    I’ve been made aware of a rather significant difference in security classification procedures between the Reagan Administration and that of Bush the Second.

    It seems under Reagan there was a strict defined procedure for classifying or declassifying documents.

    Under Bush Two, the President, found for himself the sole liberty of instantaneously classifying or revealing any document or other information at his own whim or pleasure.

    “Whatever the President does is lawful and correct…”

    Who said that?

    • Animal Control

      Right Wing nut cases and Nazi’s

      • Animal Control

        And soon to be recited by Obots

        • TeakwoodKite

          Animal Control to Unit One…
          Are those barking Obots in your cages?

          That has to be a deep insult to this nation and stain on BO.

          Pity he has not the courage of any convictions, if that ain’t voting present, I do not know what is.

          I never expected BO to support the laws of this land, but hoped that a change would surprise me.

          Silly Kite.

    • tek

      J: Richard Nixon said that in an interview. Maybe with David Frost.

  • Maria3

    What has kept us safe for the past eight years? We have not been hit since 9/11. Yet, now, Iran is testing missiles and aiming them at our troops in the middle east.

    This is interesting – -

    CNN Poll: Favorable opinion of Dick Cheney on the rise

    “Is Cheney’s uptick due to his visibility as one of the most outspoken critics of the Obama administration? Almost certainly not,” says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. “Former President George W. Bush’s favorable rating rose six points in that same time period, and Bush has not given a single public speech since he left office.”

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/21/cnn-poll-favorable-opinion-of-dick-cheney-on-the-rise/

    • Docelder

      We tend to not see things we don’t want to see. We are all weary of the yellow and red alerts and taking off our shoes to be x-rayed in the airport. So, we want to believe we don’t need any of that… that we never did really. But, wishing doesn’t make it so. The world was forever changed on 9-11. It will never be the same again. So when Obama came around, telling us what we wanted to hear…well it was too much for most people to ignore. But because his words are like a salve to our wounds… that doesn’t mean he can keep us safe, or that there never was a real threat. Unfortunately, people usually have to learn things the hard way. There is not an Easter bunny, and Obama is just another smarmy politician.

      • tek

        Docelder: have you not read all the hundred of reports of all the successful instances of people getting on planes with loaded guns, knives, etc? Some 13 yr. old kid got on a plane and changed flights twice with no ticket and no I. D. So much for airport security.

        And why do the government and the American people focus solely on airports, like the terrorists wouldn’t have enough brains to attack us in another way. Under Bush we had absolutely no border security and no port security.

        Obama is not doing any better in this regard, but he’s certainly no worse. For that matter, he allowed the NSA or whoever to keep spying on all of us all the time.

  • Maria

    You got it wrong Larry.

    First, the GENEVA COVENTION does not apply to the terrorist (the terrorist are not a government). I don’t like the Bush Administration but lets get one thing straight, they kept us safe by all means possible. Why wont Obama declassify the attacks that were stopped? Should we all give potential terrorist a lawyer (taxpayer money by the way) and wait to see if they can talk? Are you serious? We are facing terrorist that will take there own lifes away just to accomplish of what they were brained washed to do and is “kill every US man, women and baby” by all costs.

    By the way, once a terrorist steps one foot into the American soil, they are protected by our laws which will delay them of talks of “FUTURE” attacks (parents can’t even spank kids because it’s called abuse). Dont you think that terrorists know what our laws protect. Were our people that were on their soil given human rights? NO..instead they beheaded them.

    I know you hate the Bush administration but facts are facts which once again Obama is not telling the whole truth nor releasing the truth. Obama is also mad by the senates that didn’t see eye with him on Guantanamo “90 to 6 votes” He was crushed!

    • listing starboard

      Your blind hatred of Bush and Cheney is obvious. I would take Dick Cheney over Rahm Emmanuel, David Axelrod and the Chicago mob anyday. There were many flaws in the speech Obama gave, most notably that he gave himself wiggle room as usual to reverse himself at anytime. Why on earth would you praise him?

    • Animal Control

      Your understanding of the Geneva Conventions is pitiful and compounded by your ignorance of our Constitution. The Constitution is the document that gives our elected Representatives/military their power. It is not stagnant, where our Military goes they are always under the power of The Constitution. That is their oath, they don’t leave it at the water’s edge.
      Learn some history before acting like you know something.

      • Tom Cat wodie j Jefferson Esq

        My understanding is that the Geneva Convention only covers UNIFORMED COMBATANTS. No?

        Obama won’t release the memos for the same reason he won’t release his own records-he doesn’t want the truth to come out.

        • DefiantOne

          Precisely. If Obama is so right, why is only the releasing the memos which make him look good?

          He needs to stop giving telepromted speeches and start releasing all the friggin’ information so we know who’s telling the truth.

        • ces

          The Fourth Article covers non-uniformed “civilians” which still have to be treated relatively humanely.

          • Animal Control

            That’s right, even nudists are covered (he he) by the Geneva Conventions.

            • ces

              Too bad torture is such a funny subject.
              /sarcasm

              • Animal Control

                I hope you know I was referring to the uniform right. Torture is neither funny nor legal. I was trying to make a point–that even nudists who, don’t wear uniforms nor poor persons who can’t afford a uniform have human rights and dignity ” endowed by their creator” as Jefferson wrote. Anyway, nice to have some interaction.
                Have a nice Memorial Day weekend everyone–(not the right wing neo-con America love it or leave it, my country right of wrong crowd).

                • ces

                  AC, nah, I knew what you meant. Sorry, I just get my hackles up on this subject.

    • Ellen D

      You got it right, Larry.
      For all the people who say we have been protected by a negative – no attacks – I say we also haven’t been invaded from outer space. Is that thanks to NASA?

      Where you are quite right – that technique was and continues to be useless – IF YOU ARE TRYING TO GET THE TRUTH, it continues to be useful IF YOU ARE GETTING THEM TO LIE TO FIT YOUR PURPOSE.

      The simple fact is that these guys were tortured to get them to link Iraq to Al Quaeda. And some did. I know I would if I were waterboarded.

      • termo

        “The simple fact is that these guys were tortured to get them to link Iraq to Al Quaeda”

        You said it is a “fact” so prove it.

        • Ellen D

          Please read:

          Note to Nancy Pelosi: Colin Powell Got Snookered at CIA, too

      • Tricia Spiegel

        Agreed Ellen D. Good analogy also!

      • Diana

        When I was a child I drowned in the Ohio River. I was 9. I got pulled under by an undertow. When I came to I was getting CPR and Mouth to Mouth. Choking up and vomiting water.

        We grew up along the river, so swam in it from the time we were tots, but I got out too far before anyone realized I was gone. After that of course our parents put us in any swim class they could find, so they have shelfs of trophies.

        Along with defensive classes to learn what to do in situations like being pulled under. You know what it’s like when you’ve just recently drown to be pulled under water over and over to teach you what to do? Till your little body just gives out and you quit fighting it? Which is what they did to us back in the 70′s and what they wanted us to do. It’s the only way to survive.

        I think I lasted longer than most of the children because I knew what it’s like to be stuck under the water. I wanted no part of it, but my father was afraid I’d be afraid of water if they didn’t do something. Just like when I got hit by a truck on my bike, he made me get out and go riding a bike as soon as I could. I was thrown up in the air and landed on the top of another car. Fear was not part of my vocabulary as a child. When my mother was taking care of the younger ones, we older ones would jump out of our second story bathroom window into a three foot swimming pool. It’s amazing we all survived.

        But, I also know what it feels like to breath water. I’d confess to anything they wanted…

      • tek

        Ellen D: You’ve got it totally right. The torture started big time when we got into Iraq and there were no links to Al Quaeda. Bush /Cheney knew they were cooked so they were willing to try anything to get someone to make the connection–even if fictional.

        • Docelder

          I think what we are seeing by now is that it took a ruthless dictator to keep the peace in Iraq. If you can even call what they had then “peace”. So, if we have to become Saddam to rule over his land… then what is or was the point to begin with? Were we not better when we acted as if it was out of our control and our allies were doing business with Iraq under the table in defiance of UN embargoes? Honestly, I think we would have been better off to not have stepped in that “pile” which is Iraq. Did it make the world safer though? Maybe it did, but nobody cares because no attack happened. Are Iraqis better off? Probably truthfully yes, though saying that gets them nothing, and so we will never hear it from them or as much as a thank you in return.

          • indigogrrl

            I believe the point to begin with was to get control over the contracts in the oil fields…. in other words, as usual money. Providing “freedom” or “democracy” was the propaganda to get us all to look the other way.

    • Nellie

      Maria,

      Larry DID NOT get it wrong. Since the American Revolution, Washington and Jefferson insisted and held to the belief that WHOMEVER was captured from the other side of a conflict would be treated with respect for their HUMAN RIGHTS.

      Perhaps a reading of the founding fathers papers might clarify that for you.

      Terrorists are members of the Human Race. My personal loathing is for Pedophiles. That does not give me the right to treat them worst than predatory animals treat others in the wild.

      Its not what THEY think or believe – it is about who and what WE are that matters. It is NOT a matter of political ideology but a matter of who we are as Americans and as a people.

      And my dislike of Obama and his gang of thugs is the equivalent of my distaste for Cheney and his blood lust.

      • Animal Control

        Well said (expressed).

      • TeakwoodKite

        Nellie, thanks.

        My contempt for them as well.

    • elise

      Maria how do you know the 300 or so detainees still in Gitmo are guilty? No evidence has been presented or charges brought. How do we know they are enemy combatants or innocent men turned over for a reward? Doesn’t it bother you?

      FYI there are presently several terrorists in US supermax prisons including the Blind Sheik and the Shoe Bomber and there is no way they will be breaking out of there or released early for good behavior.

      • TeakwoodKite

        Being blind or deprived of your shoes makes escape difficult.

        What I find a specious arguement is that having “radical muslims” in our prisons to “radicalize the prison population. That is already occuring.

  • J_Gocht

    Condi Rice Pulls A Nixon:

    When the President Does It, That Means It is Not Illegal…

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Condoleezza-Rice-or-Richar-by-Betsy-L-Angert-090501-349.html

  • ces

    People, read Jane Mayer’s “The Dark Side”. The case Larry is expounding upon is detailed in the book. Buy it or get it from the library. Just read it, m’kay?

    The FBI was getting info from Zubaydah BEFORE the CIA took him over. When the torture started, Zubaydah clammed up. After awhile, he became a raving lunatic (and not just ‘cuz he was a terrorist, mind you.)

    Cheney is playin’ ya for chumps, if you believe him that torture, and torture alone, got actionable, tactical information about impending attacks.

    Cheney is, in part, the reason we have oZero in office.

    At least in this case, you have to set aside your fear/hate of oZero, and know that Cheney is full of shit. And do anyone of us know if we were safer with Cheney in office? How the flamin’ cowpie do you really know? It’s an absurd notion.

    It’s sick that other people’s suffering can be twisted into utter partisan politics.

  • http://hillarynme.com/ sportsone234

    I am writing this comment as a former Democrat and now proud PUMA and independent.

    No one could be a harsher critic of the Bush Administration, the war, and Cheney. But I gotta tell you, Cheney made more sense to me today than Fauxbama.

    BTW, I’m getting sick and tired of hearing the Bush CIA lied to us but the Obama CIA isn’t. I thought there was only one CIA.

    Release all the papers, seems to me we can figure out who is lying … Pathetic Pelosi or Leon Panetta.

    • ConfusedAmerican

      I’m getting tired of Obama trying to imoraltilize his family….Did you notice how Obama was again trying to make his daddy a hero again?
      What really gets me is it seems that Obama seems to think everything is all about him and his perfect family.

      • Hank

        He always wants to talk about himself, one of the differences in today’s speeches was that Cheney stuck to the message, while me myself and I glorified himself and his father.

      • listingstarboard

        Unless his father was really Frank Marshall. Then it makes sense.

  • Diana L. C.

    The idea that the Bush administration kept us safe all these years doesn’t ring true for me. Other than the fact that there has not been another 9/ll, where is the proof? (Maybe another attempt like that has not been tried since then.) I want to know exactly HOW their policies made a difference. Give us the evidence. So, yes, I want full disclosure.

    Maybe, as has been mentioned, we’ve had more American deaths and earned more hatred through our blundering in Iraq than would have occurred if we had taken a different approach from W and Cheney. Their efforts surely didn’t help in Iraq and have resulted in mor American deaths (not to mention innocent deaths of Iraqis) than occurred on 9/11. The best way to protect American is to concentrate on our country. How do we help the FBI and the various law enforcement agencies seek out and find the people who might commit another 9/11? How do we make sure that next time we have good intelligence as we did before 9/11, it gets noticed and acted upon?

    I don’t think we’re doing that. And as a recent post pointed out, our reactionary measures at airports are quite silly. That post featured Denver’s DIA, and boy could I relate as I had passed through it the day before the post. It would be easy to create havoc in almost every airport by simply concentrating on the security lines.

    I don’t think torturing people will get us the information we need at all. It’s time consuming and just all-out wrong.

    We can learn from some European countries how to mainatain security–countries that don’t stoop to torture!

  • Docelder

    I don’t have any firsthand knowledge of any of this sere training, or for that matter I haven’t even watched a single episode of 24. But, is there not some distinction to be found between uniformed troops and non-uniformed combatants… I mean beyond the obvious. For example, if a SEAL is captured is he not likely to be captured as a part of an active mission? In that case, giving his people 48 hours allows his team to get to safety, or otherwise begin to react to his own capture. Whereas, say a non-uniformed combatant is captured. Is not the information about where he was recruited, where he was trained, the names of everybody he can recall at the training camp… etc. would that not have importance beyond a 48 hour time frame? I am not back slapping Cheney here, that isn’t my intention. Just that we give our people the fair credit that is due them.

    • ces

      The problem is that a good number of the QBay detainees weren’t captured by US forces. They were turned in for unspecific bounties by other locals.

      Don’t like your neighbor? Turn him in for cold cash!

      Or they were drug warlord factions fighting each other for territory…not necessarily Taliban or Al Qeada.

      But of course there are the filth who WERE captured by US forces in the act of fighting against coalition forces. Those guys need to be held up in international LAW.

      If you make the case that to apply the Geneva Conventions to only military folk…? Well, better get CIA and FBI and all contractors out of the ME, because you’ve just said it’s open season on anybody.

      You either cover everybody (including coalition forces) or you cover nobody. And I don’t want our troops in the latter position.

      • Docelder

        I think there are problems with paying informants in general, and that doing this leads to false arrests probably more often than we like to think. But, I was referring to the few prisoners that were water boarded. Yes, it is torture, it is undeniable to me that it is. But, does the fact that 48 hours have passed mean that there is nothing significant to extract from these prisoners? I don’t think so. But, the case can be made that anything critical enough to warrant the enhanced techniques would have a time relevance to it. But, even so, for the few that were water boarded… tortured… maybe it would have been done if they never knew anything? Aren’t we better then that? I saw a video last night on Fox… police officers chased a van, the van rolled over throwing the suspect out of the van and onto the roadside… police officers ran up to him and immediately began kicking the unconscious driver… so are we better than that?.. apparently not it would seem. Is the water boarding justified? That is above my pay grade.

        • ces

          The conundrum of waterboarding those who “know something” is…how do you know they know something BEFORE you start waterboarding?

          My sense of morals says waterboarding is wrong. And that is backed up by federal and international law.

          We are better than that. Or should always strike to be better than that.

          The video of the police chase resulting in kicking the unconscience man…of course hind sight makes it abhorrent. But what was the preceeding actions of said driver that put himself and many others in such a position? Could he not have stopped? And of course our “peace” officers beating anybody seems bad. It’s part of the high-stress position; not unlike the reservists told to “soften up” detainees.

          It’s like “try one and you can’t stop.” Unless someone catches you, and punishes you. Those five officers have been fired. And both W and Zero are protecting EVERYONE involved with the torture sessions.

          Of course you can’t determine a person’s guilt or even the presumption of guilt in 48 hours. But by god, you should be able to after six years!!

          • ces

            s/b striVe

    • J_Gocht

      “…say a non-uniformed combatant is captured. Is not the information about where he was recruited, where he was trained, the names of everybody he can recall at the training camp… etc. would that not have importance beyond a 48 hour time frame?”

      So Doc, what you’re saying is…if you are more interested in strategic information rather then time critical tactical intelligence, torture might be the answer?

      Provided we all agree; that given enough time and vise big enough, we can get anyone we have, to say anything we want…?

      Then, I’m inclined to agree with you; if Cheney’s primary reason for using EIT’s, was to get Zubee to admit that AQI was in league with Sadden, to justify the link the Administration was trying to make with respect to 911, that’s a… ding, ding, ding…!

      You get the brass ring!

      • Docelder

        Sure, what I am saying is that for a uniformed troop captured, where we know we are fighting their government and not them personally… how they joined the army, who recruited them, where they went to boot camp and who they trained with is nominal and maybe useless information. For Al Qaeda though, the same information may all be very useful. Such information though useful, may not have such a short shelf life. The whole debate over torture in general and whether it should be used at all, or ever is justified… well I don’t think that is the point in this discussion. Rather, was there any use for water boarding this one prisoner past getting a witch hunt type confession from him? I don’t think we know that. But, maybe the rest of the documents will spell it out.

        • J_Gocht

          “…was there any use for water boarding this one prisoner past getting a witch hunt type confession from him?”

          None.

  • xax

    You’re confusing. You do not think that they worked. That’s cool. But this is weird to me:

    “That is more than SIX MONTHS since the capture of Abu Zubaydah. If we go stictly by SERE standards, Zubaydah no longer had relevant actionable intelligence justifying extreme interrogation techniques.”

    According to you there are no ticking time bomb scenarios, in fact it can take weeks or months to gather good intelligence. It’s what you said. So how do you make the leap that after six months Zubaydah no longer had any good intel? Are you contradicting yourself or trying desperately to make a point?

    “Dick Cheney gets results.”

    LOL!!

    I don’t think he’s indulging in TV fantasies, but your constant references lead me to think that you might be.

  • http://www.madinthemiddle.blogspot.com churl

    If Joe has a nuke in the basement ticking away, you waterboard him immediately to find out where the basement is– not two days later after the bomb has exploded.

    And– gosh all this Dick love here– have any of the Dims murdered any quail or shot a lawyer in the face? Yes, draft-dodging Dick, quite the role model.

  • roger

    A con artist is a con artist is a con artist. POtuS got his first big public spanking yesterday on Gitmo, so he’s back in campaign rhetoric mode.

  • listing starboard

    Funny, I don’t see any posts about Norm Hsu and his relationship with Clinton? Just to be fair ya know? I think the best blog out of Montgomery County is Michelle Malkin.

    • Wisewoman

      I’m sure you are aware that Hillary gave back the over 800,000 he contributed. He also contributed to Obama and he did not return the money. Stop the Hillary bashing.

  • J_Gocht

    Hey Sailor,

    Yah can’t “kid a kidder” can yah…?

  • graywolf

    You may be entirely correct about the timeline (and the pointless CIA waterboarding of Abu Zubaydah)
    BUT what was the FBI doing with this guy during the critical 48 hours – and following months?

    Miranda rights and cookies and milk.
    If that worked, why did the CIA take over?

    • ces

      CIA took over because Tenet (good buddy of Bush that he was) felt he needed “results.”

      And that, despite the fact that the FBI, through their non-extreme methods, got enough info to find Padilla.

      Then Bush made the CIA lead agency, so even though the FBI was brought in later, they couldn’t do anything to change what the CIA was then doing on orders from the War Council.

      -my summary of Jane Mayer’s book, The Dark Side, pg.156

      • J_Gocht

        “ces”

        Yah don’t get it yet…soldat…!

        Yer an outrider…

        • ces

          They’re called aspirin. Take two now and two more tomorrow when you wake up. Something tells me you’ll need em…

          • J_Gocht

            What did that pilot chick say, in that Alaskan TV series…?

            “In your dreams…”
            Huh…!

            I have a life threatening allergy to aspirin…

            Two aspirins now, and two in the morning could…?

            Oh shit…!
            I get your drift…!
            Yah Ok…if you insist…!

            Are you copasetic…?
            Soldat…!

            Get my drift…?
            I hope…!

  • Seattle Moss

    You got to love drudge.
    Cheney in total command staring down in his menacing style, twice the size of a timid and unsure Obama.

    Just to let you know..

    I bet on Cheney to protect me!

    He’s winning the debate big time!

  • KmX

    President Obama cannot expect to win this debate when he relies on a teleprompter. VP CHenney got up there and spoke form notes. He looked more sincere than Obama. Obama is just reading and making his decisions base on the Polls.

    Natioal security is too serious to be looking for compromies. Obama needs to be firm with his decisions even if the polling is bad.

    I can’t wait to watch to Lyne CHenney tonight on Hannity. Mark my words, the next leader of the republican party will be a WOMAN.

  • Desert Diva

    Don’t agree w/Larry ever, see there’s a first
    time for everything. Good points of evidence

  • Baba Rum Raisin

    The normal rules tend not to apply when dealing with adversaries who:

    (1) Take their orders direct from God;
    (2) Aren’t afraid to, rather EXPECT to, die.

    Simply ratcheting up the brutality, though viscerally satisfying on a PR, “nuke-the-camel f*****s” level, is likely, IMO, to just make the adversaries meaner and more determined.

    Seems odd to me that we taxpayers are feeding large numbers of the imagination- and logic-challenged at a high level of compensation who can’t figure this out.

    But, I’m NOT very smart…

  • http://noquarter foxyladi14

    imho..a good steak dinner and a big bottle of wine works better.

  • J_Gocht

    Cheers, foxy…!

  • http://! stodgie

    i have to laugh at our hapless dims. the only reason they are refusing funding on gitmo is because their phones are ringing and they are being chewed on big time. what a shame they didn’t pay attention years ago when this all began. a study in being acoward if i ever saw one.

    as for obama, let him send those gitmo detainees to chicago. i bet rev wright and the rest of the gang will just love it.

  • Retired

    I generally agree with Larry’s conclusions, but not the above analysis. Trying to equate the perishability of the information held by special operators on a mission with the type of information that we generally seek from captured Al Qadans (I use this term not just for “members” of Al Qaedsa, but for all terrorists of similar ilk) is like comparing apples to oranges. The perishability of information from captured Al Qadans potentially has a much longer shelf life, for reasons that neither Larry or I are disposed to discuss because, frankly, that is a secret and needs to remain so.
    Which is exactly the reason why we don’t need to employ “enhanced interrogation techniques” against most high value Al Qaeda capturees. Rather, we can employ much more sophisticated techniques that, in the long run (which we have time for), will yield much better information.
    It is the rate politician that understands this, and former VP Cheney has proved that he isn’t one of this breed of rare politician.
    There may be some day when we find ourselves in an actual “ticking time bomb” situation. What will we do then? Probably what John McCain advises (look it up, it’s on the web). And we will have to live with the result.
    Why employ “enhanced interrogation techniques” when we don’t have to?

    • J_Gocht

      Is that you “snooper”…?

      • Retired

        ‘fraid not. More like “pooper.”

  • Doc99

    On a related matter, House rejects probe into Pelosi’s CIA claims.

    • J_Gocht

      There’s somethin’ about this post that get’s my “unger’situation and life mead…!

      I gotta luv all you fabulous gals and guys, from here..!

      An everywhere…!

  • TeakwoodKite

    That is more than SIX MONTHS since the capture of Abu Zubaydah.

    Mr. Johnson, in your professional opinion, what are the chances that Abu Zubaydah sat in a cell doing nothing for 6 months?

    If this is the same time frame of the CIA tape purging, then is any record of what went on after this most dedicated FBI agent left?

    It is one of those Mulder moments where the true is out there but any recording of it is missing.

    Why?

  • Hank

    BHO is nothing but a fraud, every speech he makes has to have the perfect setting. This guy still thinks he is campaigning. Why doesn’t he ever give a speech from the heart? Because he is a READER!! I hope Cheney keeps being his THORN. We need to get a Tumbleweed full Thorns on him and Congress. I thought he looked annoyed during his speech today. GREAT JOB CHENEY!!

  • Mr.Murder

    The only person Cheney ever studied keeping safe was himself, aside fromt he bin laden family members who were in America on 9-11.

    He had better things to do during ‘nam that fighting in uniform, but it did not stop him from getting into Nixon’s web of war enablers back in the day, right beside his partner in crime Rumsfeld.

  • J_Gocht

    An everywhere…!
    Gosh…
    Teakwoodee,…Kite…
    Actually TWK…I’m the sorriest sucker you’d ever wanna meet…!

    You say…he say…she said…

    Gosh dammit…who the hell are they…?

    I’m doin’ fine!
    Did yah ask…?

    OK, ok…!
    Now let’s get down to particulars…!

    The fact that Cheney insists on embracing such techniques informs us of the kind of tyrant he is at heart. Good riddance Dick…”

    Does that make sense too you…?

    H&K’s Teakwoodie…!

    • TeakwoodKite

      I’m the sorriest sucker you’d ever wanna meet…!

      Huh? Unforgiven?

  • Dave

    I would still trust Cheney before I would trust ANYONE in Obammys administration !!!!!!!!!!

  • TexasMirth

    Cheney’s approval rating is up 8% since January, according to this CNN poll:
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/21/cnn-poll-favorable-opinion-of-dick-cheney-on-the-rise/
    Love him or hate him, you know where he stands, which is something that cannot be said about Obama, who seems to be caught in a revolving door, reversing himself almost daily.

    Watching Cheney’s speech tonight, I couldn’t help but hum Tom Petty’s “Stand My Ground.”

    • TeakwoodKite

      Pity he’s standing on sand.

  • mountainaires

    This is what happens when leaders devise illegal and immoral policies of torture. The abuse filters down to the lowest common denominators. That is why, I believe, Obama is wrong not to hold those leaders accountable. And, in light of these truths about the horrors of the Bush/Cheney policy of torture, the fact that this doesn’t even enter into the “speeches” or the “interviews with major media” is just Orwellian. We are having a discussion about “enhanced interrogation” without even acknowledging what that means in its full scope. Policies have consequences. So, read this and you can see what it means. The American people are being kept in the dark by the past administration and by the present administration.

    http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/05/us-officials-admitted-that-boys-were.html

  • Mary

    Larry,

    I would be interested in reading a post from you (perhaps your next one?) explaining what the term “preventive detention” actually means, whether it is Constitutionally legal, and whether Obama’s demand for Congressional approval of the legal structure required makes him any different than Bush/Cheney.

    Many thanks. I’m looking forward to your post.

  • Oral Green

    Dick Cheney is an habitual serial liar who has no credibility whatsoever. He lied in support of the war in Iraq when he knew what he was saying was not supported by the intelligence. According to a Pentagon report, Iraq was not connected to 9/11. The Iraq war was an absolutely needless war which has resulted in the deaths of more us citizens than 9/11 terrorist attacks.

  • afather&mother who lost two that day 9/11

    those MURDERERS

    Ok so it’s ok to blow up 4,ooo + people that day of 9/11

    Would we ever got information who did what?

    Well I wonder how many people here had a family member(s)that day in those buildings and on the planes.I say..keep them locked up till the day they freak’n die..those Murders

    I felt like Dick Cheney is…. I would like to get my freak’n hands on those Murders..I would have done the same

  • afather&mother who lost two that day 9/11

    Where is the birth certificate 22. millions of our tax dollars went to Hammas to support his regiume.So that’s ok?

    I say good for Dick Cheney! Blow those MURDERS UP WHO KILLED AMERICAN PEOPLE.

    Bless those who died that day 9/11 R.I.P AMERICANS

    OBAMA THE FRAUD !

  • afather&mother who lost two that day 9/11

    Where is the birth certificate 22. millions of our tax dollars went to Hammas to support his regiume.OUR TAX DOLLARS

    I say good for Dick Cheney! Blow those MURDERS UP WHO KILLED AMERICAN PEOPLE.

    Bless those who died that day 9/11 R.I.P AMERICANS

    OBAMA THE FRAUD !

  • checkforthetruth

    At least 4,000 American citizens have died in the Iraq war and another 30,000 have been greviously injured. Iraq had no involvement in 9/11 and Cheney knew Iraq was not involved in 9/11…yet Cheney repeatedly lied to the American people to support the Cheney/Bush war folly in Iraq. An unneccessary war! Simply put: Cheney is a known liar and can not be believed!