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“We’re Becoming A Puritanical Society”

By Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy on May 29, 2009 at 8:07 PM in California, Current Affairs, Don't Ask Don't Tell, GLBT, Gay Rights, Hate Speech, Hillary Clinton, Human Rights

The other day, I wrote a post about Proposition 8 being upheld by the California Supreme Court. In response to that post, faithful reader, SFIndie, made this comment, which I want to share with you here. She does, in fact, live in San Francisco, and knows whereof she speaks. Anyway, I thought it particularly good, and wanted to share it with you, with her permission, of course:

We’re becoming a Puritanical society, bit by bit. No same sex marriage, no domestic partnership benefits, no rights for any couple unless they’re married under the eyes of the law. What’s next? No divorce allowed? We have to protect marriage, after all. Governmental approval of choice of spouse before marriage can take place? I wonder what their criteria would be.

Here in SF, the gay community is despondent, and rightly so. (But now I’m going to rant a bit, because I’m so freaking tired of the blindness and apathy and non-accountability and hypocrisy I run into daily.)

The folks I talk to here in the Castro are very nastily taking their frustrations out on Carrie Prejean who, while I certainly don’t agree with her views, has the exact same views as the man they voted for President. Yet when I mention this, I get no response, or “that’s different”.

Mention The Pretender’s turnaround with DADT and DOMA? No response. Mention some of the anti-gay people he’s appointed to positions in his administration? No response. Mention his non-support of equal marriage rights for everyone, his non-support of the gay community, his never once having marched in any gay pride parade? No response.

But mention Carrie Prejean? Well, you’d think she was the devil incarnate. Like I said, I certainly don’t agree with her views, but would someone please tell me why she’s bad and The Pretender is still The One???

I agree we ALL have to fight for marriage equality, gay and straight alike. I wish someone would tell the gay community here in SF. I’m seeing a lot of anger at the outcome of the CSC decision, but where were they all when Prop 8 was on the ballot? The level of involvement was almost zero. Easier to blame its passing on others rather than take responsibility for educating and enlightening those people outside of their community.

Okay, time for me to go hide again and pretend I’m in the midst of a nightmare and I’ll be waking up any minute and turn on the news and find out what President Hillary Clinton is accomplishing today.

What SFIndie said. Couldn’t have said it better myself…Thanks, SFIndie, for letting me post this!

Brodie

I ask similar questions of Bark’s supporters & get similar non-answers. Fffft. Piss on all of ‘em. I understand that I have no rights. I don’t think most people understand that if one group has no rights, then nobody has any.
Brodie

I meant “Barky” didn’t get that “y” in there….
SHV

We’re becoming a Puritanical society, bit by bit.
***********
I think surveys show just the opposite, at least as far a gay marriage is concerned. Younger age correlates with more tolerant attitudes, even among “evangelicals”.

Ellen D

I think rather than Puritanical we are becoming a society where it is OK to stick your nose in other people’s personal business even if they are complete strangers.
I just read a column by a pregnant woman who has Starbucks servers lecturing her on how she should be drinking Decaf.
I used to think it strange that Roe vs Wade was decided as a privacy issue, but now I think that was exactly right.
I’d like the phrase “Mind your own business” to make a comeback.

Animal Control

I’d like the phrase “Mind your own business” to make a comeback.

Hear Hear!
Ferd Berfle

I think rather than Puritanical we are becoming a society where it is OK to stick your nose in other people’s personal business even if they are complete strangers.

For sure. It seems to me that there are a lot of control freaks out there who can’t keep their own lives in order but still insist on meddling in those of others.

elise

SHV what does it matter what survey’s show when the most “liberal” state in the country passes a law defining marriage in such a narrow way? There exists today as much gay bashing and misogyny in schools as I have ever seen in my life.

Mary

Indeed.

Even the President of the United States is against gay marriage.

And in the California Prop 8 referendum, studies have shown that 7 out of 10 Obama voters were also against gay marriage.

One must understand the Black conservative churches’ influence on that vote, given that homosexuality and gay marriage are considered “abominations” amongst these preachers, and most gay relationships are conducted on the “down low” in that culture (think Southern Baptist). They do not consider gay civil rights to be the same as Black civil rights at all.

Obama knows this. He took his stand in the primary AGAINST gay marriage, and did so, publicly, for political reasons.

But you won’t hear that on Digby’s site, or on MSNBC. They protected Obama from his own complicity, by blaming Mormons instead and ignoring the Black church’s influence during the Prop 8 discussion.

Due respect.

Scout

This is, I think, entirely accurate. And we (gay activists) won’t confront it. Last night I was at a National Center for Lesbian Rights dinner in San Francisco. One of the speakers said “and it wasn’t the black churches that passed Prop 8, it was the white churches.) Well, it was both–generally speaking, because we all know that not all predominately black churches were pro-8, and neither were all predominately white churches.

I personally think that if we give an ongoing pass to black churches we will never win this struggle. But we are too afraid of being called racists.

mountainaires

I completely understand the frustration, but I reject the argument that we are becoming a puritanical society. I’ve been around far too long to acquiesce to that argument. I’ve seen far too many changes for the better to think we’re going backwards. I was in my early 30s in 1984 when AIDS reared its ugly head in the media. I remember how it was then.

I’m no optimist; I’m in fact, a confirmed Irish pessimist, BUT. The way I see it, we are becoming less puritanical. More and more people have family and friends who are openly gay, and more and more, they support same-sex marriage. The changes in people’s mindsets often seem infinitesimal. But I see them; they’re there, and they’re growing every day.

Right now, there are pockets of resistance, thanks to propaganda, spin and corporate media. But there are states which have ratified equality in same-sex marriage, despite California’s recent setback….it keeps on happening, state by state.

Yes, it’s a slow, relentless march forward, but it is relentless…they can try, but they can’t stop it forever.

mountainaires

I mean, really. I know people are frustrated and dejected, and depressed and angry about what happened in the court case in Cali. They DESERVE to be angry, depressed, and tired. But take a breath; lick your wounds, and then fight back again. It’s all you can do. Keep fighting.

Think about it. Time IS on our side. You don’t like her? Okay. But, nonetheless, Rachel Maddow is an openly gay woman anchoring a major news cable program.

That’s not a MORE puritannical society. It’s a more progressive society.

Moreover, people here at this site, don’t think twice about critiquing Maddow’s reports or her opinions on her show. She’s gay; she’s getting equality of viewer criticism despite the fact that she’s gay. And, she’s a top ratings getter on MSNBC.

Again, you may not like her personally; but isn’t the fact that she’s gay–publicly–and anchoring a cable news program which you can criticize openly as if she’s just another anchor–a huge step forward from a decade ago?

Yes. It is.

Now, just keep fighting the good fight, and those of us out here in the rest of society have your backs, because we are not more puritanical, and we are the majority.
SFIndie

I agree, mountainaires, things are definitely better than they were. I have friends and family members who could not come out of the closet until they were grown, and it screwed them up for a very long time. I have another friend whose brother died of AIDS in the early 1980s, and for years he was afraid to tell people for fear of how they would react.

And, if you read Reverend Amy’s post, you’d know that despite the advances made, we now have Prop 8 in California; Amendment 2 in Florida; Marriage Protection in Michigan; an attempt to eliminate domestic partner benefits for employees of state universities in Kentucky; and 41 states that have defined marriage as being between a man and a woman. We have yet another President who does not support marriage equality; who has gone back on his word with regard to DADT and DOMA; and who condoned and contributed to the revival of sexism and misogyny in this country.

So, my comment that we’re becoming a puritanical society? Perhaps a bit dramatic, I admit, but when I see what is happening state by state across this country, I cannot help but feel apprehensive and uneasy. And I see the apathy of the gay community here in San Francisco, and I see women ignore the overt misogyny and sexism of the past two years, and I see in the White House a man who was put there by the very people he appears to disdain, and I wonder what has to happen before we all wake up and put a stop to this backward slide before it’s too late.

Doc99

An cavalry forms to challenge Prop 8.

Fomer Bush v Gore opponents, Ted Olson and David Boies have teamed up to fight Prop 8.
Doc99

An unlikely cavalry forms to challenge Prop 8.

Fomer Bush v Gore opponents, Ted Olson and David Boies have teamed up to fight Prop 8.
Retired

As long as the gay community is willing to excuse the most powerful man in the world (Obama-”That’s different”) while blaming a powerless beauty pageant contestant for their troubles, they can expect to remain frustrated. California, by the way, has the most liberal domestic partner rights and benefits laws in the country, so trying to make the case that California is leading the way to a more puritanical world, while an understandable rant born of frustration, merely serves to isolate that gay community rather than educate the populace.
How about another tactic? Just say, “We’re glad we’ve got pretty much everything else that opposite sex married couples have. May we just take that last step and be married?” I think that this approach would be far more appealing the the majority outside of the gay community who are really apathetic about this issue rather than the current approach.
But that’s just my opinion.
Ani

Some friends who opted to vote for him are still in denial as well on these issues. Rather than saying anything, I find myself avoiding talking to them at all, which is painful to be sure. But I don’t feel like watching them apply this ridiculous double standard to their thinking. I got enough derision one way or the other from a few because I told them about all this before the election. Truly, I can’t be bothered. I hang with the people who are sensible and honest now — regardless of who they chose to vote for.
Babs

I think the gay community has to realize two things here. Number one, until you stop letting your message nationwide be dictated by the likes of Perez Hilton, you are losing the battle for the hearts and minds of those who now oppose you. Gay rights are human rights, sing it loud and sing it clear, and forget the crude attacks on those with opposing views, for the minute the word “homophobe” comes into the conversation, you have lost the high ground of the argument before you’ve begun. Number two, until you become equal opportunity opposition, with as much criticism for the actions (or non-actions)of President Obama as you display for people like Miss California, you will be branded as a left wing cause, and your sincerity will always be in question. The choice to criticize only select people who are in opposition to gay marriage is obviously a political one, but this argument should be one of human rights, period, and the farther away from the political arena you can run, the less opposition you will have. The hypocrisy of attacking Miss California while remaining silent about the inactions of President Obama in this fight is startling, and that silence is becoming deafening to the very people you are trying to convert to acceptance of this very basic human right.

This is just a humble opinion from an old straight lady with no horse in this race, and I may be wrong in the eyes of those of you on this blog who are more personally involved in this fight. Just trying to give you a perspective I see and hear every day in my world.

Docelder

Yes, I think that is right on. I think most people are ambivalent about this, and maybe can see things from both sides. When, something like the Miss California thing happens or the hanging of the Palin effigy in West Hollywood… well the ambivalence shifts to the side of Miss California as an example, because she seems more moderate and fair in her opinion. I just think the whole “were here” thing has been done and it’s time is past.
SFIndie

Comment by Babs | 2009-05-29 21:53:43
The hypocrisy of attacking Miss California while remaining silent about the inactions of President Obama in this fight is startling, and that silence is becoming deafening to the very people you are trying to convert to acceptance of this very basic human right.

My point exactly, Babs! I’m just an old straight lady too, but I’ve got friends and family members who are affected by Prop 8 here in California who don’t seem to be able to see the hypocrisy of their actions.
http://www.rabblerouserruminations.blogspot.com/ Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy

I cannot believe that Perez Hilton has become a spokesperson for the GLBT community. I don’t even know how that happened. He sure doesn’t speak for ME. That kind of vitriol is not the way to win friends and influence people, IMHO.

And I can appreciate that people think we have moved so far forward, but do remember that marriage has been defined as between a man and a woman in 41 states, and is only legal for GLB people in 5. Those are some mighty telling numbers.

Honestly, just because Rachel Maddow has her own show, or Ellen Degeneres has one, cannot be extrapolated into things are great for us around the country. Some of the most homophobic responses I’ve endured have been in states like MA and NY (as in NYC), two fairly liberal states. The US is still a difficult place for many in the GLBT community to live, CA notwithstanding (and there are hate crimes against GLBT people in CA, too).

Don’t forget that it was a lot of Obama supporters that helped pass Prop 8 in CA in the first place, and that it passed at ALL is evidence that we are not as accepted as some here might think (or hope). If we were, it would not have passed, right?

I’m just saying that while you may disagree that the US is not becoming Puritanical, it is by no means the most welcoming country for many, many GLBT people.

http://in Elizabeth

And I can appreciate that people think we have moved so far forward, but do remember that marriage has been defined as between a man and a woman in 41 states, and is only legal for GLB people in 5. Those are some mighty telling numbers.

The political waters have been tested and while support for gay marriage is on the rise, it is still somewhere between 30 and 40 percent. The more states that adopt same sex marriage laws, the more others will fear those couples moving to their state and expecting it to be honored there as well. No social justice struggle has ever been won in a day, or a year, or even six years. The backlash is inevitable. What is important is that we are moving forward…

But gay marriage proponants will need greater support and a consensus for their cause to prevent social conservatives from reviving in the GOP before moving forward. The relative radical gay marriage option wasn’t even on the table a few years ago and the country as a whole simply isn’t there yet.

Retired

You are absolutely correct, “old straight lady” with no horse (LOL). You cannot excuse the President and attack Miss California for taking the same position. When one does so, people just say, “uncommitted political hypocrite.” And they are right.
I had this same discussion once with a young AIDs activist early in GW Bush’s term. At the time, the Bush administration was very openly and actively embracing an anti-AIDs campaign. I asked this single-issue activist whether she was going to support Bush in his efforts, and she said, “Absolutely not, because that’s different.” Well, I’ll tell you, when one says they are committed to a cause and then excuses a powerful member of the opposition to that cause because “that’s different,” one has just lost a potential ally. NOW’s shrinking support over the past few years as they abandon capable women in favor of male opponents that they perceive to be in a better position politically bears this out.
Mary

The Black community, led by its own conservative church preachers, does NOT consider gay rights to be the same as human rights or civil rights.

Most of the rest of us do, but the Black community within their churches, does NOT.

7 out of 10 Obama voters were FOR Prop 8.

NomNomNom

I don’t actually support any marriage at all or any marriage benefits for anyone and don’t want to be married. Still I am sorry for your situation. I certainly don’t think it’s fair or in accordance with what I feel are supposed to be American values of equality, valuing of diversity, and separation of church and state.
Saying that eventually you’ll get rights to marry is like telling women that eventually they’ll achieve wage parity. It begs the question of well when then, dammit?
This upholding of Prop 8 certainly does suck. Presently North Carolina is the only southern state that doesn’t have an anti-gay constitutional amendment on marriage, but there’s been talk of one. If we have any crap like that on the ballot here in NC, I’ll vote against it.
Pingback: Conspirama
Babs

Retired: There was a report out a month or so ago from the Global AIDS Alliance that, since its inception, President Bush’s program to fight disease and poverty in Africa has resulted in saving the lives of over one million AIDS victims. Did you see that anywhere in the MSM? Did any of them commend him for his humanitarian efforts? Contrast that with the fact that Obama, in the budget he just signed, has cut $3.3 billion from the budget for that same US global AIDS funding. Bet you didn’t hear about that in the MSM either.

Retired

“That’s different.”
JozefAL

Babs, you might want to recheck your slam.
Here’s what I found (from TexasDarlin’s blog):

A pledge to spend £4.3 billion on bilateral Aids programmes under the Mr Obama’s Emergency Plan for Aids Relief (Pepfar) has been shaved back to £3.3 billion.

Mr Obama had also promised to contribute about £1.8 billion on the Global Fund to fight Aids, tuberculosis and malaria, but his budget request fell short by £1.2 billion, the GAA said.

Note, that symbol is the symbol for the British Pound Sterling–NOT the US Dollar.
According to the site, Obama is STILL intending to spend 3.3 Billion Pounds Sterling (that equates to 5.3 Billion US Dollars) which is down 1 billion Pounds (or roughly 1.6 billion dollars).
Do you remember how much George W Bush pledged to global AIDS programs during HIS first two years? A TOTAL of $700 MILLION. It wasn’t until 2003 that Bush pledged anything of significance (which would only begin with FY2004), and then that would be $15 billion over 5 years (that comes to an average of $3 billion a year, which is still some $2 billion less than what Obama is still intending to spend). Also, I’d point out that the Bush Administration had some pretty massive strings attached to those funds. For starters, “sex workers” had to be excluded before a group could get the Bush funds. Even groups that didn’t have outreach programs to prostitutes were required to put IN WRITING that they opposed commercial sex work. (A number of other groups, while opposed to sex work, still reached out to prostitutes, offering free condoms to help stem AIDS/HIV. Yet such action violated the Bush Administration’s policies.) It seems to me that the Bush Administration’s programs were already evidence of that “puritanical society”.

glennmcgahee

Separation of church and state. Why were Presidential candidates required to have a “Gospel debate”? Why does the President have so many religious advisors? Why the candidate’s forum at Saddleback? I tell my friends to go to ther time machine and remember the very beginning of Obama’s Presidential bid. It was called “The Gospel Tour”. That was the one held throughout predominately African American churches in the South that featured “ex-gay”, Donnie McClurkin speaking about Jesus saving him from homosexuality. There were several of those tours. Our gay community was aware of them, yet, nobody said a thing. So why is a beauty queen, who stated, “no offense to anybody, but that is how I was raised”, why is she being demonized for her honesty?

Doc99

Obama’s co-opting everything he needs to remake this country. Why not religion too?

marktarheel

In this case…the majority is right…vote no on same sex marraige…..its not only obama, but also hillary that is against same sex marraige……..it should be 1 man and 1 woman…….thats my position….and im not gonna change it to be pol. correct…

http://360.yahoo.com/ommotherlifeforce fred heidrick

i totaly agree i will never accept the gay cult because like or not we are the majority and dont have to give up our rights.maybe this comment woulnt be deleted,like my last one was.

Ferd Berfle

I totaly agree i will never accept the gay cult because like or not we are the majority and dont have to give up our rights.

Specifically, how are you giving up any rights by allowing gays the right to marry? Giving them right does not subtract from yours.

Animal Control

You can’t ask reasonable questions like this, how can one respond.
http://360.yahoo.com/ommotherlifeforce fred heidrick

i have the basic right to believe that men and wonen should marry and biologicy produce childens.the gays want to take away my right to my own point of view away.there are 2+ points of view the heterosexual point of view and the homosexual point of view.the homosexuals say that now there is only ,one, point of view [the homosexual point of view ] [and that i have no right ] to believe that marrage should be between a man and a woman.
your trying to take away my right to the majority point of view and only accept your minority point of view
Mary

I’d like to hear Barak Obama answer your question, Ferd.

http://360.yahoo.com/ommotherlifeforce fred heidrick

the enemey of my enemy is my friend,no matter what ever faults he has he has a wife and children.

Scout

No one is asking you to give up anything. I don’t want to take anything away from you.

I do want to have the same rights and economic benefits that straight married couples have. And guess why?

I am as good as you are.

http://noquarterusa No-nonsense-Nancy

Why is gay marriage a political issue, anyway? It has no place in politics, the same as abortion rights or stem cell research. I think the politicians put these issues out there just to cloud over the real issues so that we don’t see what damage they are doing to our country, how they are daily taking away more of our rights and freedoms.
Let people live the kind of life they want to live, if it means gay people marrying and having equal rights. They want and expect your vote when they are running for office and then proceed to destroy our country. Any politician who doesn’t support gay rights, abortion, or stem cell research should be voted out of office. Period.

marktarheel

so…any politician that doesnt agree with your radical agenda needs to be voted out………wow…sounds pretty facist to me…..

marktarheel

no nonsense nancy…….If I fall in love with my horse……..should I be able to marry it?….I could use another tax break……….it costs a fortune to feed trigger…..
MrMike

Historically, when the economy goes in the crapper people get religion.
The Cali supremes ruled on the constitutionality of Prop 8 not the morality.
How many of you remember that as governor, Sarah Palin vetoed a law denying same sex partners of state employees benefits on the advice of her AG that it was unconstitutional. Another fact the O-bots choose to ignore.
Amanda

its no big secret that the Castro street bunch are at heart woman-haters. ive lived there and know whereof I speak also.
the difference between Carrie and the Prez is simply that one has a penis.
http://360.yahoo.com/ommotherlifeforce fred heidrick

didnt know that above i know allso for a fact lived there 6 years that the fayetville ark. radical lesbians are man haters.they broke up marrages telling the wonen that the men were no good and that they should leave there husbans and boy friends and join there strugel to liberate all woman and hate all men.
Gert

SEPARATION OF RAUNCH AND STATE

(It’s still legal – and always God-honoring – to air messages like the following. See Ezekiel 3:18-19. In light of government backing of raunchy behavior (such offenders were even executed in early America!), maybe the separation we really need is the “separation of raunch and state”!)

In Luke 17 in the New Testament, Jesus said that one of the big “signs” that will happen shortly before His return to earth as Judge will be a repeat of the “days of Lot” (see Genesis 19 for details). So gays are actually helping to fulfill this same worldwide “sign” (and making the Bible even more believable!) and thus hurrying up the return of the Judge! They are accomplishing what many preachers haven’t accomplished! Gays couldn’t have accomplished this by just coming out of closets into bedrooms. Instead, they invented new architecture – you know, closets opening on to Main Streets where little kids would be able to watch naked men having sex with each other at festivals in places like San Francisco (where their underground saint – San Andreas – may soon get a big jolt out of what’s going on over his head!). Thanks, gays, for figuring out how to bring back our resurrected Saviour even quicker!

[If you would care to learn about the depraved human "pigpen" that regularly occurs in Nancy Pelosi's district in California, Google "Zombietime" and click on "Up Your Alley Fair" in the left column. And to think - horrors - that she is only two levels away from being President!]
Gert

SEPARATION OF RAUNCH AND STATE

(It’s still legal – and always God-honoring – to air messages like the following. See Ezekiel 3:18-19. In light of government backing of raunchy behavior (such offenders were even executed in early America!), maybe the separation we really need is the “separation of raunch and state”!)

In Luke 17 in the New Testament, Jesus said that one of the big “signs” that will happen shortly before His return to earth as Judge will be a repeat of the “days of Lot” (see Genesis 19 for details). So gays are actually helping to fulfill this same worldwide “sign” (and making the Bible even more believable!) and thus hurrying up the return of the Judge! They are accomplishing what many preachers haven’t accomplished! Gays couldn’t have accomplished this by just coming out of closets into bedrooms. Instead, they invented new architecture – you know, closets opening on to Main Streets where little kids would be able to watch naked men having sex with each other at festivals in places like San Francisco (where their underground saint – San Andreas – may soon get a big jolt out of what’s going on over his head!). Thanks, gays, for figuring out how to bring back our resurrected Saviour even quicker!

If you would care to learn about the depraved human “pigpen” that regularly occurs in Nancy Pelosi’s district in California, Google “Zombietime” and click on “Up Your Alley Fair” in the left column. And to think – horrors – that she is only two levels away from being President!