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Pointers and Setters

The one thing that pleases me about the current administration is that there appears to be a good number of women in powerful positions; more than I recall seeing in previous administrations, and certainly more than on The West Wing. I’m just happy to see it, for the sake of progress in gender representation.

It’s obvious that men and women will have different perspectives on certain issues, and try as we may, the opposite sexes will never understand each other. Because of that difference in perspective, I always enjoy seeing strong women in dominant positions. It’s kind of a thing with me.

I became a feminist on March 7, 1974. That was the day my daughter was born. The mother of my baby was my “practice wife,” age 21. I was 22.

That was during the early years of allowing husbands in the Delivery Room. I had to sit across the room and watch the “proceedings” in a mirror. It was kind of like watching for shoplifters at 7-11.

As soon as the doctor announced the baby’s gender, my then-wife turned to me and asked, “Is that OK?” I laughed, knowing she was not in her right mind. Of course it was OK! Why wouldn’t it be? Never mind that the father determines the gender!

Recently, there have been many heated discussions about Bobo’s nominee for the Supreme Court. I haven’t had time to read it all, let alone research her, so this post is not about her. However, it was inspired by some of the comments I have read here this week.

Where I take issue with some female feminists is a tendency by some to vent their anger toward males at large. Anger that is born of frustrations, building for lifetimes, sometimes manifests itself most when women see other women treated badly by men. At other times, it is the result of men in power keeping women out of the loop. I don’t disagree with them, but I do sometimes feel as if I am personally being blamed for all the injustices ever committed by men against women. No doubt about it, many men are out and out pricks, and I don’t defend them. Sadly, though, many women are evil too.

I often hear such phrases as “old white men making decisions for women that have direct impacts on women’s lives.” Well, I’m an old white man. But I am innocent. I have never voted against anything that would benefit women, I’ve always championed their political causes, and I have never mentioned any difference of genitalia as a political or social reason for discrimination, aside from the issue of public toilets. I don’t believe there’s a whole lot of controversy on that issue.

As a daily reader and weekly writer for No Quarter USA, I am often offended by comments from women that I perceive to be anti-male. I’m just prudish enough to be disconcerted over references to genitalia in a political discourse. Statements like “just because she lacks a penis” or “her vagina has nothing to do with her abilities” are uncalled for, in my opinion.

I feel very strongly about this, and this is why:
Differences in the urinary or reproductive plumbing of the genders have nothing whatsoever to do with the issues. It’s not because we use separate restroom facilities that men and women think differently. It’s much more about the relationships between men and women as married couples, extrapolated to include the outside world. If a woman is dominated and controlled by her husband, she instinctively paints all men with the same brush as befits her husband. Conversely, if a man is dominated and controlled by his wife, he thinks of all women as being like her. She thinks all men are bastards. He thinks all women are witches. See? I’m literally afraid to use the real word I was thinking of!

Our peers are those like us. I consider the female writers of NQ to be my peers, although in truth they are my superiors. On certain issues relating to the “battle of the sexes,” I have kept my mouth shut, until now. Some of the comments I make might cause offense to my female friends. And no matter how hard I try, I cannot always tell when my observations about gender issues will land me in hot water. My experiences as a boy taught me to never fight with girls — because they always win in the end!

My personal credo is that all people are equal under the eyes of the law, and therefore there should be no discrimination based on the gender, race, or religious beliefs of people. I believe the laws should protect against such discrimination. On the other hand, I believe quotas and affirmative action are wrong. The person who is best qualified should get promoted, whether their superior qualifications are the result of privileges or opportunities others rarely get, or simply having a better personality for the job. A highly qualified white man should not be discriminated against in favor of a less-qualified individual of any color, gender, or belief system. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination.

The majority of the readers of this blog will agree with this statement: Hillary Clinton was much better qualified to be President than Barack Obama. She should have gotten the job. Most of us feel that Obama benefited from “white guilt” voters who felt it assuaged their consciences to vote for the “poor black man” who has never had a chance at the office before. These are not grade school games, folks. We don’t need to take turns choosing team captains based on demographics. We just need to make it absolutely clear that we will not tolerate discrimination. We only need to be certain that the “old white men’s club” is not deliberately keeping women and minorities out.

I’ve heard and read many times that the dearth of women and minorities in Congress and Big Business management is somehow the fault of old white men protecting their turf from these newcomers. I take issue with that. I believe, based on my many years of experience as an employer and/or as the human resources manager at companies, that the majority of applicants for higher level positions are white males. If there is one female applicant whose credentials are about the same as the ten men who are qualified, she doesn’t have to be better than all ten to have a fair shot, she just needs to be “as good.” Based on qualifications, if she ranks second out of ten, she should not automatically get preference over the man who ranks first. The same goes for race, age, religion, or sexual orientation.

Also, I have been discriminated against in the workplace based on my gender. My profession is Office Manager. In my job searches, I have found that about 90% of the people making those hiring decisions have been female, and that they almost always give the job to another female. Why? Because it has come to pass that clerical positions are the turf of women. Men without MBAs have to take labor jobs to survive. Since I’m mildly handicapped, labor is out of the question for me. Since I am in my late 50s, that doesn’t help either. But because I was the best applicant for my current job, I got it.

Having had the chance to analyze this close-up over the last few years, it became apparent to me that the women HR Managers were hiring other women for the clerical jobs for a variety of reasons. One reason would appear to be that they are protecting their own turf, being true to the sisterhood, and making sure that these typically-female positions are reserved for females. I discovered along the way, and this has been confirmed by several women, that the other primary reason I was denied employment in an office full of women is that they don’t want a heterosexual man in their midst, especially a man old enough to be their grandfather. It kills the feminine atmosphere. Suddenly they can no longer speak freely amongst themselves about the things “typical” women talk about. Please don’t make me spell that out!

The same applies to men. I work for a construction company, and until lately, there were no female employees. I was hired for the position of Office Manager, which had always previously been given to women. Recently, a woman was hired as Office Manager for another company my boss owns. He moved her office into our building. Suddenly, with the addition of a female in the office, the men all have to start watching their language, what they talk about, what they look at on their computers, and so on. They curse less. They no longer discuss female anatomy. It’s like having your mother move in with you!

I haven’t heard a fart in weeks!

The company I work for is all male, mostly white with a few Hispanics. Not one single woman has applied for a job there since I started. Only about three black men have applied, and none of them had any experience. It’s not a deliberate cabal, a secret conspiracy to keep women and minorities out. It’s just that the job is hard work, requiring a lot of upper body strength, and quite a bit of First Aid. The hands of our workers are like chewed rawhide. Most men we hire can’t handle it, so we have a lot of turnover. That probably explains why no women have applied. I don’t know why we have so few black applicants. But what are we supposed to do? Must we recruit a bunch of inexperienced women and minorities, and refuse to hire experienced white men? We’d go broke in a month!

I’m convinced of this: there would be more women and minorities in all branches of business and government if people of those demographics applied or campaigned in equal ratios to white men. Why do we have only a few female senators? How many have run for those offices? How many white men have also run for those offices? If white male candidates outnumber female or minority candidates at a ratio of 20:1, which group will capture the most seats? So my point is that I don’t buy the argument that women and minorities are being “locked out” of the process. It’s strictly a numbers game. And it’s obviously changing, fortunately.

So I ask this favor of the women: before going off about how sexist men are, I hope you will first think about all the wonderful men you know. Guys like me! And sometimes Larry. :)

And before making comments that seem to imply that the only difference between men and women is whether our reproductive organs are inside or outside, please consider that most men were never trained to be compassionate nurturers, and most women were never trained to kill the enemy with their bare hands. There’s more than plumbing that separates us. There are hormones, how we were raised, and how our peers pressure us.

And of course there’s that bathroom thing! No doubt about it, there really is a huge difference between pointers and setters!

Thank God!

  • Tricia Spiegel

    You are so right, Steve in KC. There ARE wonderful men who have it all together with regards to women. I am so lucky to be married to one.

  • oowawa

    So I ask this favor of the women: before going off about how sexist men are, I hope you will first think about all the wonderful men you know. Guys like me! And sometimes Larry.

    Well Steve, I have to say, you are certainly a courageous sort, venturing onto NQ with this story! But speaking of Mr. Wonderful, about 10 years ago someone gave my wife a doll that looks like Dudley DooRite, named Mr. Wonderful! When you squeeze his hand, he says various things. Among them:

    “Yes Dear!”
    “No! You don’t look at all fat in that dress! How could anything make you look fat?!?!”
    “Honey, why don’t you just relax and let me fix dinner . . . ”
    “Mmmmm–You look so beautiful in the morning!”
    “You know, I think it’s really important that we talk about our relationship!”
    “Did you have a hard day honey? Why don’t you just sit down, and let me rub your feet?”
    “The ball-game really isn’t that important. I’d rather spend time with you!”
    “Hello darling! Have I told you ‘I love you’ lately?”
    “Let’s just cuddle tonight, smoochie-poo!”
    “Actually, I’m not sure which way to go . . . I’ll turn in here, and ask directions!”
    “You’re going shopping by yourself? How about if I tag along and carry your bags?”
    “Here, you take the remote. As long as I’m with you, I don’t care what we watch . . . ”

    Well, you get the idea . . . .
    Now I wonder why someone thought my wife needed a “Mr. Wonderful” doll . . .

    • Steve_in_KC

      oowawa said:
      “Now I wonder why someone thought my wife needed a “Mr. Wonderful” doll . . .”

      I would guess they thought you needed some training!

      Thanks for the laugh, Dudley. :)

  • jbjd

    Two statements jumped out at me.

    As soon as the doctor announced the baby’s gender, my then-wife turned to me and asked, “Is that OK?” I laughed, knowing she was not in her right mind.

    Regardless of the basis on which you determined your “wife was not in her right mind,” I wonder on what basis you assumed she was not honestly expressing her fear that, you would have preferred a son to a daughter.

    The majority of the readers of this blog will agree with this statement: Hillary Clinton was much better qualified to be President than Barack Obama. She should have gotten the job. Most of us feel that Obama benefited from “white guilt” voters who felt it assuaged their consciences to vote for the “poor black man” who has never had a chance at the office before.

    I know HRC was more qualified than BO but, this is not the reason I am outraged he is our President. In addition to the fact I believe he is not a NBC, I know that she won the primary, and observed the DNC rigged the nomination. This is the reason he is POTUS, and not that “guilty whites assuaged their consciences.”

    • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

      I took the ‘right mind’ comment to be a very empathetic one. Not many parents (including fathers) are in their normal state at that moment: fear, anxiety, and extreme fatigue can certainly get the best of anyone.

      • jbjd

        SNK, I cannot address whether the author is being empathetic to his wife’s ‘condition’; my criticism to his comments was based on the fact, he ‘excused’ her concerns that he might be disappointed she had given birth to a girl, to her being in that ‘abnormal state.’ I merely wondered why, assuming the state she was in made her susceptible to blurting out whatever crossed her mind, she blurted out her fear that he might have wanted a boy instead of a girl; and, instead of introspection on what he might have said or done to arouse her concern he favored one gender over the other, he rationalized it made no sense for him to have a preference because being a man, he was responsible for the baby’s sex.

        • Steve_in_KC

          jbjd,

          I would like to address your concerns openly and honestly. Thank you for your contribution to this dialogue. This gets pretty personal, so please bear with me as I cautiously bare my soul.

          First, this was 35 years ago, when I was barely an adult.

          I honestly didn’t care which gender the baby was. Four years earlier, the same woman gave birth to our son prematurely, and he died two days later. I know that she still grieved for him, and that she felt some obligation to replace him. She blamed herself for the premature birth. I had no such thoughts about replacing a lost son. I was equally at peace with either gender. And of course I never blamed her for the death of our son.

          Keeping in mind the year was 1974, my memory tells me she was partially anesthetized, and that is what I meant by saying she was not in her right mind. My memory could be wrong, but I have always thought she was under the influence of gas.

          I laughed because it struck me as very funny, under the circumstances. I laughed because the gender of the baby didn’t matter to me. I laughed because I knew that gender determination comes from the spermatozoa, not through any effort on the mother’s part. And I laughed because I loved her and our baby, and I was very happy.

          As a postscript, we divorced within the year, and she died 25 years later. My recollections of our youthful marriage 35 years ago are not all pleasant, but there is no doubt that we were in love, had deep respect for each other, and planned the pregnancy. It just wasn’t meant to last.

  • rw

    -Where I take issue with some female feminists is a tendency by some to vent their anger toward males at large.-

    I think that was the fighting cry of the second wave of feminism of 50 years ago. IMO, it’s old, it’s dated, it’s counterproductive, it’s not reality.

    • TexasMirth

      rw- The reality? The feminists of today are venting at women – look what they said and wrote about Sarah Palin. I once respected Gloria Steinem, but her hypocrisy during this last election revealed an ugly truth – women succeeding in the political realm are only applauded if they mirror the opinions of the women of NOW. Otherwise, they get demonized for daring to enter the arena.

      • rw

        Didn’t NOW not support Hillary…Didn’t NARAL support Obama….here was a woman with the qualifications to be president vs a younger, lesser experienced male and they support him, wtf were they thinking. And they are the leadership of women’s rights…don’t think so.

        What about the electorate, was it 40+ percent of women voters that voted for Obama….right, there’s sisterhood for you. Voting for an older more experienced woman just didn’t make them feel chic and progressive, not like voting for the younger (47, that’s only 13 years mind you) cool black dude did….’cause the media “told them” that voting for Obama was “cool”. How about the younger set, screaming for him….or wearing Sarah Palin is a ****….meanwhile, let’s keep blaming “old white men” for women being so stupid.

        • elise

          Are you saying the women are stupid, rw? NOW doesn’t represent me anymore, nor does NARAL or Emily’s List. Those organizations have become weakened by the system that threw out a bone, but no meat.

          This post isn’t about how some women betrayed their own gender. It is about whether the original rule makers and masters of the universe have moved beyond sexism and are now the victims.

          • rw

            -Are you saying the women are stupid, rw?-

            Yes, in respect to 2008.

            -This post isn’t about how some women betrayed their own gender. It is about whether the original rule makers and masters of the universe have moved beyond sexism and are now the victims.-

            My comment was to Texasmirth.

          • lorac

            Given that everyone who voted for Obama (except perhaps the corporate world) voted against their own best interests, I don’t imagine we really need to single out one group of voters to call stupid.

        • NomNomNom

          NOW endorsed Hillary at the end of March in 2007 and through the entire primary season. They did not endorse BHO until mid September 2008, well after the primaries had concluded.
          http://www.now.org/press/03-07/03-28.html
          http://www.now.org/press/09-08/09-16.html
          NARAL endorsed BHO preferentially to Clinton in late May.
          http://guerillawomentn.blogspot.com/2008/05/naral-endorsement-of-obama-enrages-pro.html
          EMILY’S list also waited until just after the primaries to endorse BHO on June 6. At the time that NARAL endorsed him, EMILY’s list president, Ellen Malcolm said, “I think it is tremendously disrespectful to Sen. Clinton – who held up the nomination of a FDA commissioner in order to force approval of Plan B and who spoke so eloquently during the Supreme Court nomination about the importance of protecting Roe vs. Wade – to not give her the courtesy to finish the final three weeks of the primary process. It certainly must be disconcerting for elected leaders who stand up for reproductive rights and expect the choice community will stand with them.”

          • rw

            -NOW endorsed Hillary at the end of March in 2007 and through the entire primary season.-

            I thought it had been just the NY Chapter. Thanks for the clarifications….

          • elise

            Nom, where was the fight against the media when the awful sexist remarks began or the DNC which allowed the attacks to go unanswered.

            I had a running email dialogue with all three of these organizations for months and I got excuses. The straight fact is they were afraid of sexist accusations. Unlike the NAACP and civil rights activists among the AA community speaking out on a daily basis making unfounded accusations against the Clintons, women’s organizations made half hearted protests, didn’t call press conferences or organize in an effective way to fight for women’s rights.

            • NomNomNom

              I am not a member of any of these organizations, nor do I support their decision to endorse BHO, ever. I was only disagreeing about the timeline of their endorsements. I recollect Pappas of NY’s NOW chapter dissenting re- the Ted Kennedy gang rape comments, lol, and not much else. I agree with your statements regarding their cowardice entirely. I remain disgusted by them.
              It’s my opinion that they should have endorsed Cynthia McKinney, who has been a consistent voter of their platforms and who was on the ballot in all 50 states and who was no disenfranchiser of voting. Indeed she was the principal representative speaking against vote theft and against electronic balloting.

  • arran

    Steve, I enjoyed your frankness and honesty. After reading about the New Haven firefighters’ reverse discrimination case, I’ve been re-thinking discrimination in the workplace. Yes, I’ve wondered, “Don’t I want the best, most knowledgeable firefighters to arrive at my house to put out the fire?” I hope the engineers who designed this bridge, this over-pass, this car were top drawer.

    Earlier today, I was comparing my experience reading the posts and comments at a feminist blog and at noq and I noted that I laugh a lot here, but rarely over there. I find the men widen my scope of interest and offer more varying opinions. I enjoy the joking around and the humor (of both genders). Maybe it’s our age, but I too move over the anatomical references without stopping. However, the sexism and misogyny of the last year was appalling and has re-energized women. Many of us long for our 52 % of the population to be represented in Congress and for a woman to be elected president, like almost happened.

    I’m happy to know you’re a feminist and your 34-35 year old daughter drew a trump card with you as her dad.

    By the way, equality is my goal — superiority ?, neh.

    • Steve_in_KC

      Thank you, Arran. I’m with you, I like seeing women getting motivated. Too bad it took such blatent misogyny as we witnessed in 2008 to light a fire under them.

      As Caroline Kennedy learned, you don’t get to be a Senator by just sitting around the house waiting for them to call and invite you! Women will only get parity in representation when they step forward en masse and dig in for the long haul. There’s a lot of work to be done by both genders.

  • fif

    Actually, isn’t it true that Obama has fewer women, comparatively, than other administrations, and is only equal to “W” on this score?

  • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

    Steve–very nicely (and courageously) said! While being supportive of women, we should not tear down men. I want to live in a whole society, not a half.

  • jwrjr

    I agree with much of what Steve said. If the person is qualified for the job, then gender or race are irrelevant. If the person is not qualified for the job, race or gender do not make them more qualified.

  • hmk_me

    I have lived through the days when a married woman with children was told she should stay home with the kids, and she was only working for extras.
    I have worked in the newspaper industry and the railroad industry. Both very male dominated. Yes there are some of the old boy stupidity but some things are changing.
    If we alienate half the population we lose. To get equal rights it will take both men and women working together. That truth may upset some women but it is reality.
    I try to make a point in my signoff and hope people will understand it.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  • http://www.homestudioessentials.com/ A-Nony-Mouse

    I think it’s unwise to say that people voted for Obama because of “white guilt” — I think it’s no more fair to say that than to say that people voted for Hillary Clinton simply because she was a woman.

    On the other hand, I voted for Dennis Kucinich because he was the only real liberal on the ballot!

    • Steve_in_KC

      A-Nony-Mouse said: “On the other hand, I voted for Dennis Kucinich because he was the only real liberal on the ballot!”

      Oh! So YOU’RE the one!

      Actually, I think it’s entirely fair to say that many people voted for Hillary because she is a woman. And many people voted against her for the same reason.

      And I’m not backing down on the white guilt motivation. I’ve seen it quite clearly.

    • NomNomNom

      Cynthia McKinney had 12 years experience in the House, a liberal voting record and platform equal to Kucinich, and she didn’t take her name off of the Michigan ballot as part of Barky’s plan to disenfranchise voters and screw Clinton, as Kucinich tried to do, and BHO, Biden, Richardson & Edwards did.
      She announced a bill to impeach Bush on Dec 8, 2006. Kucinich didn’t suggest that until Jun 9 2008. Your boy is behind the curve in every way.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G3eq-I7CzM

  • http://deleted Betsy Buzz Ross Latte

    Thanks Steve in KC , it’s great to read a male perspective. I’m one of those ladies (ooh, that word makes a few angry women cringe) who lived through the “we gotta demean men to make ourselves more worthy” and the “men, you have to change ALL your behaviors because my girly self esteem is too shaky and I’ll get angry and sue you if you make a joke” 1970′s.

    Yeah, we had men who were azzholes for bosses, yes, we had to put up with jokes and pats on the azz, and yes, we were overlooked because a man was hired in order to take care of his family. Those were the days!

    But what took the mens’ place in the 1980′s were stressed out super women with families and a full time job as bosses. They were exceedingly more nasty, vindictive, and demeaning to other women in many ways. They may not have told sexist jokes but their vitriol against another woman or two was far worse than any off color joke. The Devil Wears Prada movie illustrates what I’m talking about to a tee.

    The male bosses taught me how to deal with life and the job on a very real level. The female bosses taught me to duck when someone was having a bad hair day.

    A male boss once changed my flat tire in the parking lot while a female boss ran to her car and drove off with me standing next to my flat tire another time! Those are true events that happened to me. I learned to buy better tires upon the suggestion of a few men in both my work and personal lives.

    I realize those are my experiences and that women are still trying to change the other half of the planetary inhabitants. I just wish that this time around there will be more teamwork WITH men instead of all the demeaning and hateful vitriol against men.

    • Steve_in_KC

      BBRL, thank you so much for your comments. That gave me a good laugh! Love your phrasing. :)

      Your descriptions of some female bosses reminds me of Nancy Pelosi. I am convinced she torpedoed Hillary because the didn’t want another woman outranking her. As it stands, as Speaker of the House, Pelosi is third in line to the presidency. She’s arguably the most powerful woman in US history. Pelosi’s the Queen Bee. No competitors allowed!

      • lorac

        LOL Because we know there are no men who are ever competitive, never sabotage each other trying to get to the top! It’s a woman’s thing.

        I did want to mention, you mused about society needing more women applying for certain positions, such as senator. I think that needs to be in the context of the treatment they receive that men don’t, such as what we saw happen to Hillary and Sarah.

        Personally, I think a LOT of troubles in the world would be greatly minimized if more men were like you, as a father. For one thing, they say if men were more involved as nurturers, we wouldn’t have all these guys kidnapping, raping, and killing little children. And just think – with your empathy, you could be a Supreme Court Justice! lol

      • http://deleted Betsy Buzz Ross Latte

        That’s exactly what I thought about Nancy Pelosi, also. I’d seen it too many times in my own professional work situation to think any different.

        Women are going to still have a large uphill battle if the reigning queen of power is Nancy Pelosi. There are too many people who sense her vindictiveness – the fingernails approach – to other women.

        Women must stop, take a breath, and really look at themselves in the mirror.

        Many times their actions continue to create problems for them. They still remain part of the problem instead of part of the solution. Women who didn’t vote for Hillary or criticized Harriet Christian for standing up are still part of the problem. Women who must demean and whine against everyday men push solutions away from their cause. Women in CA who vote for Nancy Pelosi in 2010 are going to continue the unequal treatment of women.

        Now, this is not to say that women should not speak out. Male aggression such as abuse and rape do need to be stopped. But the blanket approach against ALL men has been 40 years of counter-productiveness in many ways.

        On a lighter note: How many young women today are asked, “Are you a womens’ libber?” Sheesh, men wouldn’t even talk to you if you said, “Yes.” LOL!!

        And, yes, the two sexes still make the world go ’round!

  • T

    Part of the reason that you hardly ever see women applying for certain jobs is because there’s so much sexism toward women that prevents them from wanting to work in those professions.

    You said you work in the construction industry? Yep, that’s one of those industries that women steer clear from.

    Just because women don’t apply, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re dis-interested in the profession.

  • http://deleted Betsy Buzz Ross Latte

    Many women also don’t want to lift 50 lbs and over, set footings for cement pours, drive frontloaders, graders, dig pipelines and drain fields, do heavy physical labor on a daily basis, work air nailers, lift sheet rock, carry up the materials to roof houses, take the noise, the chemical exposure, and the long hours, either.

    So let’s qualify the situation and relate it to the type of real work construction is rather than just saying it’s because of the men involved.

  • Mr.Murder

    OT, but not really so:

    “Premier Silvio Berlusconi is fighting back in a scandal feeding on his fondness for young women, with his lawyer acknowledging Saturday the media mogul has moved to block publication of hundreds of photos taken of guests at his sumptuous Sardinian villa.

    State television reported that among the photos were some taken last New Year’s Eve, with the guests including an 18-year-old Neapolitan woman at the heart of the political and personal scandal.

    The 72-year-old Berlusconi’s wife, Veronica Lario, announced a few weeks ago that she was seeking a divorce, in part because of what she lamented was her husband’s infatuation with young women.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090530/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_berlusconi_teen_scandal

    Yet the British government has learned….
    How close exaclty is the Vatican Embassy of Niger to Italy?

    A broken watch, the traditional Persian wedding gift, was also missing from he office where the Niger forgery occurred?

    “One photo shows several women crowded close to Berlusconi as they sit on a bench on the villa’s sprawling grounds. One of the women is sitting on Berlusconi’s leg. In another photo, Berlusconi is shown strolling with two women, one holding his right hand and the other holding his left.”

    I can’t help but wonder if Tony Blair likes eating fine Italian?
    Certainly Aznar’s buddy the EU minister(Spanish) at the time probably does, along with Mike Ledeen. They wined and dined on think tank banquet tickets for AEI here and there!

    You know, the Italian Navy was who the real aluminum tubes shipments were for, entirely unrelated to procurement of uranium. With conventional usage, a known known! Who could have ever imagined?

    How would ordinance for the Italian Navy fall into CIA case reports well after the fact? Was Mr.Ledeen’s wife not on Sen.Santorum’s(R-Dog on Man) Senate staff as part of the minority report’s summary statements of the Intelligence Committee?

    Can’t we all do like Berlesconi, Blair, Aznar, Santorum, Bush, Cheney, Addington, or Botlon and take some time off to put food on our families? Or someone’s eighteen year old put food on the Prime Minister?

  • elise

    Steve, I’m sure you are a good person with good intentions, but I’m not sure you understand fully what sexism is. Don’t worry. There are plenty of women who don’t recognize it and are unaware they are internalizing the underlying idea of inferiority.

    Our experiences are obviously different. After graduation, I applied for a job as a statistician and was offered a job as clerk. When I turned the job down, the HR director, a man, made a pass.

    When I got a job, it was in an office where the only other women were secretaries. My bosses, both men, came into my office and told each other off color jokes. I was also told I couldn’t wear pants in the office even though the men often wore jeans and I had no meetings with the public without appointments and never wore jeans for them.

    In my first marriage, I allowed my husband to take over every aspect of our lives. Decisions about money, children, friends were not made on an equal partnership basis. When we got to the point of divorce, he said one of the problems was I was a “little mouse”.

    My second marriage is more successful partly because I’m willing to fight for my equality. But I am positive, if I stopped fighting he would gladly take over even though he is a good man and is not overtly sexist. He respects me because I call him out when I don’t agree with him.

    I cherish my independence and never take it for granted. Nor do I believe all men are sexist, but old, learned habits and attitudes are hard to change. I can’t afford to feel sorry for men (white or black) as a group. To interpret that as being hostile to the gender is, in my mind at least, a form of sexism. What is the message? Feminists are bad because they aren’t always sweet while demanding equality? Ambitious women can complain about one man who passed them over for promotion, but can’t call attention to all of the others who have made the rules which kept them enslaved for centuries and still put limits on what they can achieve?

    May I ask you Steve, how would you fight for your rights when some of the members of your segment of society don’t want to fight out of fear of not being accepted by the group you know would keep their foot pressed firmly on your back and on theirs too? This is what we saw in 2008 in the media, in politics and the election process with Hillary and Sarah Palin. I believe we will be ignored if we whisper our protests instead of speaking in a loud, clear and united voice.

    I’m 5’2″ and weigh 120lbs. It’s hard to look up at someone taller and stronger and say, “I demand my rights”. Until women began to do that in the 1970s, I’m sure men had no complaints. Women were nurses and school teachers, housewives and mothers as a general rule and never thought they had the potential to be more if they wanted.

    I had a male professor tell me mathematics was not a field for women and this was the late 1970s. Prof Summers, currently an adviser to Obama, said just last year or the year before, women were less able to understand mathematics and other sciences as though the gene responsible for abstract thought was missing my gender.

    I am sorry if some men think I am aggressive or some women would prefer I shut up out of fear of being challenged. Just keep quiet and don’t rock the boat? I don’t think so. Some men and women will understand what I’m saying, others won’t, but I will continue to speak out for MY daughter and granddaughter.

    • arran

      No, you shouldn’t be quiet, elise, for you have had experiences that illustrate the reason for women’s out-cry over sexism and misogyny, and discrimination.

      Many years ago (1971 or 1972), I remember being told that men with military service would have 10 or 15 (can’t remember the exact number) points added to their test scores on the state test I was about to take for a state level job. Up until around 1963, women were not allowed to enter the state university as fresh(wo)men, unless they were nursing or pharmaceutical majors.

      The importance of having a family and children for many women can’t be minimized. Recently I read that professional women aren’t rating their lives as “happy.” They’re exhausted with working two jobs, at home and work. Steve didn’t explore how the business world still plays to the man with a wife at home to rear the children, and enough husbands haven’t taken their responsibilities as fathers seriously. We women need to fill in the blanks for men from our perspectives.

      But, hey, Steve, is thinking about these issues and I gave him a pass.

      • elise

        arran, I have some strong opinions about raising children, which probably comes as no surprise. I didn’t want to put them in daycare and I was fortunate to have a choice. But I’m not going to judge other women for the choices they make and recognizing some have no choice.

        Most women who have planned their children have thought about their approach to budgeting time (uninterrupted) to devote to their children. Too many children come into the world by accident and the sacrifices necessary are resented. I know this statement may cause some disagreement, but when the birth control pill became available, most of us saw it as a way to take responsibility for family planning. Very few viewed it as a way to be promiscuous without having to pay a price.

        I made a decision to postpone everything else until my children were both in school, others decided to postpone families. An increasing number of young women are not making a choice at all unless you call inaction action. This new trend should disturb everyone since not only has it increased the burden on society to take care of it’s citizens, but IMO, it illustrates a lack of awareness, self respect and the old curse of women thinking their only function in life is having a boyfriend/husband and babies only later to realize they have narrowed their options. The decision to have children brings with it a lifelong commitment and it is irreversible. IMO this is a direct function of sexism and the road back to the past.

    • Steve_in_KC

      Hi elise. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

      Of course I don’t pretend to have all the answers to the issues you’ve raised. Nobody does. The fight for true equality between the sexes will be long and frustrating. There are many reasons for this. Many women prefer the status quo, and as long as that continues, those who are not satisfied are in the minority.

      Out of over 304 billion Americans, roughly 52% are female; that’s around 158 billion females. How many women have participated in protests or campaigns to bring attention to the inequities in our society? I reckon it to be less than one billion easily. So with .01% of women working for parity with men, the ranks remain razor thin. It is difficult for many people to take seriously a campaign for social change that has such a small contingent of spokespeople.

      It is my hope, for the sake of all women, including my daughter and four step-daughters, that common sense will prevail sooner rather than later. No sane person could stand before the world and claim that women have opportunities equal to what men have. It will take men standing with women to achieve these goals. One of the points I was trying to make is that women cannot win this battle without the support of male feminists, we men who understand the unfairness women are faced with and are willing to speak out against it.

      Unfortunately, it’s nowhere near as easy as it sounds, nowhere near as obvious as it should be. The law is already on our side, but the society of men and women who wish we would just shut up outnumbers us a hundred-fold.

      I’m not saying that women should not be strident and outspoken in their complaints and demands. But as long as there remains such a vast majority of people who refuse to take us seriously, it’s going to be a long war comprised of many small battles.

      The point I tried to make in this essay was that it’s not ALL men who are to blame, and in my opinion there are just as many women to blame as there are men. When women in power do not help other women rise to the top, I call them Queen Bees who don’t want the competition. Of course the same selfishness exists in competitive men, but they are only fighting amongst themselves to be the alpha male in the pack. Women should be helping other women, not distancing themselves from them. If women don’t more universally support and help other women rise to the top, it’s going to be that much harder to convince more men to take our side.

      I believe the key to winning this long war is in the recruitment of those who haven’t cared before. That will require education and, yes, nurturing.

      Like the office sign says: The beatings will continue until morale improves. That sarcastic statement points out that you don’t raise morale by beating people down. You raise morale, and in the case of this topic, you raise consciousness, with a combination of the force of numbers, consistent messages (both to men and women), and avoiding demonizing the innocent.

      I have never sought to excuse chauvinistic males for their bad behavior. I do not for an instant hold blameless those men who disrespect women or try to keep them out of “the club.” I have nothing but contempt for men like those described by you and others on the pages of NQ.

      I encourage women to stand up for their rights, stand up to their abusers and those who would exclude or demean them, and stand WITH the many men who take your side.

      Female bashing would never be tolerated at NQ. I hope and trust that male bashing would get the same treatment. It’s not fair to the many men who fight alongside you to be lumped with the assholes and pigs who have made life miserable for women.

      Believe me, I’ve been kicked around plenty by women in my life, so I do empathize. It’s not a one-way street. Both genders are guilty, and both have the responsibility to listen to reason and to spread the message that we all deserve respect to the degree that we have earned it as individuals.

      • elise

        Steve, the fact is I’ve been sitting here wondering how I can answer your reply and some of the reasoning with which I disagree without insulting a group of people, like you, well meaning and sincere supporters of women who, though sympathize, don’t fully understand my life as a woman. I put everything on the line. My dreams as a fellow human being absent the strictures of my gender, my hopes for the future where my granddaughter will not only find open doors, but will not have to question if she will be judged on her abilities instead of her sex.

        She is so stunning, people look when she walks into a room. It has been this way since she was twelve years old when I threatened to put a sign around her neck with her age. This is not an empty brag by a grandmother and I can already see
        how it effects the way she views herself. She is so much like my younger sister who was blessed/cursed with a genetic jackpot. My sister believed it was all she had to offer so she tried to improve perfection with diets and purges. She died four years ago this month from the ravages of anorexia.

        I was a 1970s feminist and I joined with others in a joyful, exciting campaign to improve our lives. Like many others, I stopped fighting so hard for different reasons. For some reason I believed everyone had seen the problem and younger women would continue the fight. I also was convinced the Democratic Party would not let me down. I always believed the next election would see a reintroduction of the ERA and this time it would pass. When the next election came around, I always believed it will happen this time because it’s really so small a request and why is it that we even have to ask?

        I always believed the Democratic Party was the only thing standing between me and spending the rest of my life on the sidelines. I know now how foolish it was to believe in exchange for my support, the party would have my back. I don’t have a party anymore. I can’t support either party. I have been politically active for so long, I’m lost now and part of my heart is lost too.

        If I’ve given you the impression I don’t like men, I can tell you that is absolutely not true. One of my favorite activities at this stage of my life is sitting with my husband talking about philosophy, politics, math and physics. He is the most intelligent man I’ve ever known and his opinions matter to me because they come from a different perspective. It would seem taking on someone with so much brain power would be like walking through a minefield, but when he is right, I concede. When I am right, it’s difficult to get him to admit it. Whether that comes from the legendary male ego or too much confidence, I still don’t know after all this time.

        When I refer to men in a generic sense, I don’t say, except for Steve, my husband and list the other men I know fighting beside me. I am referring to the history of men who never wanted a change since they had created a world in which they were superior, made the laws. enforced the laws/rules and have demeaned efforts by women for equality and recognition. I don’t see men as my enemy, what I see instead comes from a quote by Confucius: He who knows not and knows he knows not, He is a child. Teach him. I want men (and women)to understand what they don’t know about the experience of women everywhere and throughout history.

        • lorac

          You don’t sound like you hate men, Elise. There are people who set up straw men, insisting that feminists hate men, that feminists think that all women are perfect and that men are evil. Maybe a handful of women in Berkeley in the 60s, and maybe some men are total misogynists, but generally, most people don’t have such a black/white view of the world. But some like to set up the straw man, to have a target for their misplaced anger. Your narratives are very good.

    • NomNomNom

      When I was 4 or 5 the preacher at the church my family attended said something like women were created to serve men. I never went back. That was the start of my feminist life.
      When I was in the first grade and the teacher asked what everyone wanted to do for a career, all the other girls said “correctly” that they wanted to be a wife and mother. I said I wanted to be an astrophysicist and the entire class laughed hilariously, including the woman teacher.
      Throughout grade school I was studied like a lab rat and made to take iq and other tests that the other students did not take and placed in numerous special “classes” that were masked psychological experiments.
      The testing stopped when we moved, but I cannot say that my situation in school markedly improved. The school system was quite offended that I performed better than the (usually male) students that they favored. I had many classes where multiple exams were given out, so that they could achieve the grades that they wanted for each student. Guess who got to be the only student taking the hardest exam? I recollect a math class where I made an error on a test–it was the only one the entire year– and the other students cheered; and the teacher, a man, let them.
      I went to college on the only mathematical and physical sciences scholarship offered by the university I attended and I left in the middle of the second semester due to repeated sexual harassment. Despite the fact that I had the highest SAT scores of anyone entering the college that year (the criterion for the scholarship, which is how I know) and a 3.98 GPA, I found that a male professor was allowed to grope my breasts and ass with impunity. Nor was the that the only incident, just the final one. When I reported this (as I had all the other incidents) to the dean of my college and then the dean of my university, I was told they had no plans to do anything about it (again).
      I quit that day rather than give one more cent or minute of mine to them. However, the consequences fell only on me. Needless to say being un-degreed has had some impact on my ability to earn money.
      After over 20 years I returned to college where I am still treated as less than the equal of men students despite maintaining a 3.95 average while working full time.
      I work in a male dominated field now and earn less than most men in the field do, particularly as I have almost 30 years of experience. The field I am pursuing is also male dominated.
      These are just the tip of the iceberg of the institutionalized forms of educational and financial discrimination I have experienced.
      I do not speak here of the physical violence and social discrimination.
      I do not expect to ever see any form of equality in my life, though I assure you I was told incessantly when I was young that equality for women would be achieved in my lifetime: yet here we are not 10 cents on the dollar closer after 43 years.
      If you don’t like the portrayal of men by feminists, all I can say is too freaking bad.
      The truth is that men as a group have earned far more condemnation than they will ever receive, sort of like if you took Dick Cheney out behind the shed and only you came out.
      Sometimes women say things you think are uncalled for? Awww.
      All men personally receive many unearned benefits: educational and financial advantages.
      http://www.aauw.org/research/upload/behindPayGap.pdf
      Also, higher social status in all aspects. You do not walk into every bookstore and convenience store and grocery store and see your kind displayed as a product for consumption by women. You do not walk down every street and wonder if you will be raped that day.
      You do not sit in your own house and wonder if you will be raped that night.
      You do not have the leading cause of death of your kind in your age group murder at the hands of my kind.
      When you are in a mixed group and you speak you are given a higher perception of competence.
      You have the immense advantage of religious authority. After all, your kind is made in the image of god.
      You get to wake up every morning and “know” how much better you are than my kind each and every f#cking day. And whether or not you think that you have internalized any of these things, let me say that you have.
      You have received and will continue to receive these benefits every day of your life.

      When I see an end to religion which teaches that mena re superior to women and promotes the dominance of men over women and a Constitutional amendment guaranteeing me wage parity, I’ll be inclined to have some sympathy for you for enduring the mean feminist remarks that won’t be occurring very much since they won’t be relevant.
      Until then, not so much.

      • arran

        Excellent, NomNomNom.

        I’m older than you are and, since I don’t have recent examples of discrimination, I’m *always* interested in reading the experiences of younger women. Yours saddened me, however, after all these years.

        I’ve been thinking about the women’s movement of the ’60 and ’70 and have wondered what would anger women to a point that they would again demand changes. I don’t 100% accept this answer, but would it take women losing some of their rights that should be protected by the Constitution and Supreme Court rulings?

      • Steve_in_KC

        Nom, thank you for sharing your experiences and perceptions on this touchy subject.

        I’m not entirely sure whether part of your rant was addressed to me directly, but it seemed to be, so I’d like to respond.

        I write from the gut. In order to keep my ramblings short enough for the blog, I can’t cover every contingency, nor would I try. But here is a sampling of my thoughts on your comments.

        I think the main theme of my essay is that alienating men in general is not, in my opinion, going to recruit more men to the feminist cause. It’s counter-productive.

        If I were the editor of this blog, what I wrote could serve as editorial guidelines, or advice, to writers. It’s about marketing. We want to attract, educate, and entertain readers. We want to build a consensus, not be divisive.

        If male readers come to No Quarter and see a lot of male bashing, we not only lose them as a reader, we run the risk of having these inflammatory quotes being attributed to this blog and circulated. This in turn has the potential to alienate potential readers. If they don’t come here, we can’t educate them.

        I’ve tried to make very clear that I can’t understand the opposite gender any better than anyone else can. I am on the side of women and “women’s issues” but I’m still a man, and therefore unable to truly empathize or even fully realize what some women have had to endure at the hands of men. All I ask is that women try to remember that there are many good men, too, and we don’t approve of any of the injustices and attitudes you described.

        Here’s an example, comparing one kind of discrimination to another. It’s been my misfortune to have been a victim of crime several times. Every single time that I can recall or identify, the perpetrator has been a black male. Never a woman, never a white man. So, would I be justified in blaming black men in general for crime, since only black men have victimized me? I say no.

        Thank you again for adding your perspective. :)

        • NomNomNom

          “So, would I be justified in blaming black men in general for crime, since only black men have victimized me? I say no.”
          I would agree not, but only because your experience cannot be said to be representative of the experiences of white(?) men in their interactions with black men, on the average; whereas mine, unfortunately are all too representative of women as from men.
          When the discrepancy is as great as that of women with men, then yes, I fault all men for not doing enough to control the actions of their group. Others certainly disagree with me, but this is my view.
          My man is a Native American. When I hear the white people rant, I may roll my eyes as I am white, but I do not actually disagree with what he says, as I recognize that it is as a generalization, by and large factually correct.

          One thing I would like to point out: this is a political forum: feminists are likely to have more political disagreements with men in this venue then they might in another, say, a bird-watching blog.
          In fact, I generally get along better with men than women, because women are prone to tedious exposition about their own children, babies in general and specific, shoes and nail polish, and I do not find these topics at all interesting.

  • helenk

    People will do to you what you allow. When a person steps over the line let them know it is not acceptable.
    In todays world there are laws against sexual harassment. I know that sounds naive but it does work.
    I have worked with women that can be the shrews from hell. Do not accept it. I have worked with men that think with the wrong head. Do not accept it.
    If you expect respect most of the time you will get respect.
    What happened to Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin was and is unacceptable. Both men and women should speak out to make sure it never happens again.
    Mutual respect is more than just an ideal, it must become a way of life.
    I just got home from work where I tell a bunch of railroaders they have to work and do not the the weekend with their families.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  • helenk

    I am getting ready to go to sleep now and I had this thought.
    In the bible it says woman was made from the rib of man. The rib is from his side. Not his foot so she should be lower than him. Not his head so she should be above him, From his side so she should be equal and both stand together.
    Good night hope all will come together and have mutual respect.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  • SoCalDem

    I love the title of this post, so on point. I guess I am from the first wave, but to say we were against all men is a bit much, for me the only issue is equal pay. I worked in the Construction field for 30 years, not fresh construction but fire restoration. Its dirty work but very satisfying. I started at the bottom with Demolition and worked my way up to Supervisor. My problem was the pay, when I would ask for a raise my boss would tell me the guys need more money cause they had families to support, guess he forgot I was a widow with 6 children. My kids didn’t have a Father for support, and all I wanted was a level playing field. Then I had to have an operation and could no longer work in the field. I became Office Manager at a pay cut. I hate office work, it is not as fulfilling as working with people.

  • kat in your hat

    I agree with this:

    “I’m convinced of this: there would be more women and minorities in all branches of business and government if people of those demographics applied or campaigned in equal ratios to white men.”–Steve in KC

    One part jumped out at me though…and it’s when you discussed a new woman working on the job and how it’s like your mother moved in. Why is she getting blamed for the men reacting to their work environment in a more professional manner? Farting, checking out porn (or whatever) online, and cursing up a storm in the work place is not usually considered professional in general. It’s not her fault that unprofessional behavior existed before she arrived. Even if the job is a labor intensive and/ or blue collar job, etc–there is no reason to behave in a low brow manner at work. I don’t want to think, “oh, that’s just how guys are when they are together,” because I doubt all men bond via low brow actions alone.

    • Steve_in_KC

      kat, thanks for your comments!

      What I said is true. However, the context was humorous observation.

      I said that offices that are 99% female (and I’ve seen plenty of them) don’t want a regular guy in their midst because it inhibits the free flow of female communication. Women have told me this straight out, no doubt about it, no embarrassment.

      And I said the same phenomenon occurs in male-only workplaces. Do you really think that “professional” men never curse, ogle women, or fart? Frankly, I’ve witnessed first-hand that many so-called professional women also curse, tell off-color jokes, check out men’s bodies, and discuss their sex lives. My wife is always forwarding “dirty joke” emails to me that she received from other women.

      I guess it’s just a low-brow world. :)

      • Ferd Berfle

        Frankly, I’ve witnessed first-hand that many so-called professional women also curse, tell off-color jokes, check out men’s bodies, and discuss their sex lives.

        So have I. But that’s OK by me as I’ve been known to tell a few off-color jokes and to curse like a sailor when the occasion warranted it. The people I work with have been together for years and know what to expect. We get our work done ahead of schedule and under budget, so complaints are rare. Really, I wouldn’t call it low-brow so much as being at ease with one’s colleagues.

  • mountainaires

    I applaud your post, Steve in KC. I hope I’m not speaking out of turn to say I think your daughter is so fortunate to have a father who believes in her innate capabilities and strengths, and her value as a person. Hard to believe, but some men actually don’t think the way you do. On the other hand, a father can be profoundly enlightened once he has a daughter, and watches her struggles to be free to be the best she can be.

    My beloved spouse, as a squadron commander in the Air Force, happened to be in command at the moment the first female fighter pilot was assigned to our wing. While the other squadron commanders–all male of course–tittered and joked about it, my beloved just went ahead and REQUESTED that she be assigned to his squadron. He had a reputation for fairness and accountability. So, she was assigned to his squadron; she didn’t expect anything but to be given the same opportunity, the same often brutal “debriefings” as the other pilots, and the same assessment as a pilot that all other pilots got, from peers, trainers, and commanders. That is what she got; and she worked and trained hard to gain her commander’s respect. She turned out to be a valuable asset to the squadron and the wing, and was a good pilot. Better than some of her male peers.

    After a time, she was just one of the pilots, and was respected for her skills, her dedication to her job, and for her comraderie in the squadron.

    That’s the way it’s supposed to be. Judged for the quality of your contribution, your excellence and commitment to the mission, whatever it is.

    Women still have to fight for the opportunities that are far too easily awarded in the habit of “white male privilege.” But, just because women have to fight harder, doesn’t mean that we should be indulging in “man-hate-mongering” as a leverage to garner our own “privilege.”

    I rather respect the quaint notion that each one of us is expected to earn our respect. That no one is entitled to it without earning it. And, that once earned, that respect obligates one to be responsible for its continued gift from others.

    I’m not a group joiner, and don’t much empathize with “women’s groups.” I support New Agenda’s mission of highlighting sexism, but sometimes I do get annoyed by the constant focus on it. It begins to sound like whining. Now before people go and jump on me, I just have to add that I was a barrier-breaker in the early 70s as well, in the military, when I was one of the first women to be assigned to an all-male career field. I had to fight some battles to get what was due me; I just put my head down, did my job, and patiently fought for equal opportunities. It’s not a huge thing, and I don’t want to make much of my personal experience, except to say that I was there, I had to struggle, and I fought for my own space to make my own decisions. I still do. Always will. And, so does our daughter.

    • Steve_in_KC

      Thank you, mountainaires, for your comments and your inspiring story!

      I agree 100% on the respect issue. You have to earn it to get it, and to keep it.

      My best wishes go to your daughter, and it would seem she has an outstanding chance of success, judging from the character that you and your husband have apparently instilled in her.

  • http://deleted Betsy Buzz Ross Latte

    Mountainaires presents the best case scenario. EARNING RESPECT.

    Her story is a blaring example of success through earning it – self actualization, if you will.

    Others still need to cling to the “He, (the situation or life) done me wrong!” meme.

    That’s counterproductive and self defeating.

    That’s why I’ll take my lead from Hillary Clinton. She doesn’t ever present herself as a victim. Hillary has earned respect from many. Just look at the situation with Germany and GM. They didn’t call Nancy Pelosi or some women’s group. They called the person who could make a difference. Why? Respect!

  • http://noquarter foxyladi14

    Steve said it was like mom moved in.great..
    make them act like adults and not kids..

    • Steve_in_KC

      Well, where’s the fun in that?? :D

  • elise

    Correction should have been, “They were afraid of racist allegations”.

  • gorgonica

    Hi just a short background to begin. I was and still am an ardent Hillary supporter. I voted for Cynthia McKinney when the time came to make a choice. I could never vote for anyone man or woman who held a position that restricted a woman’s right to make choices about her body or anyone’s right to love and be with the adult partner of their choice. While I admired and respected John McCain’s sacrifice for his country and Sarah Palin’s gritty rise in politics, I couldn’t vote for their policies.

    Regarding the post, I have a few questions:

    1) Affirmative action benefited women as well as people of color. Would the tenor of comments change in that regard if we found that Hillary had been given benefit in that way? Did her entry in college bypass some more qualified man? Would that change the conversation in that area? Certainly at the time a large part of the male population considered letting women into university a type of affirmative action. They considered women unqualified. Imagine the women of Afghanistan living under the Taliban. They couldn’t say “When a person steps over the line let them know it is not acceptable.” they would be killed. Nor do they have the same training, education, or experience as their male counterparts. When the Taliban is ousted, should the men tell them that they shouldn’t be members of the government because they aren’t qualified, don’t have the experience, and so forth? Although there is a striking degree of difference now, in the recent past, the too recent past and all too often in the present, women are held back by the palpable threat of violence. This is all too evident by the comments made in threat against Hillary and Sarah and even Nancy Pelosi. No mainstream newscaster has ever said I want to take George Bush in the back and only one of us comes out. Amazing that given his abuse of power.

    2) While I sympathize with the poster, I would believe him more if he modeled what he said. Based on his rhetorical stance, its as if he walked up to me slapped me and belittled my sex and then said you should stopped being so harsh on men. He chastises women by criticizing them and then attempts to dominate their behavior by telling them how they should act. He criticizes their entry in a male-dominated workplace, he criticizes their behavior to other women. He expects better behavior from women than from men. He expects them to take power more quickly – the laggards. Think about how long it took from the Magna Carta to the Declaration of Independence with many a misstep along the way. By that scale women are moving quite fast in taking their reins of power. The critique does not really survey the context of taking political power. I see it as reinforcing the stereotypes of women. It rather reminds of the irony of My Fair lady – “If only a woman were more like a man.” Male politicians are constantly trashing each other why not condemn them as their own worst enemies? In this case, the writer holds women to a different standard than men. In this blog, though written from a kind attitude, it actually resurrects all the traditional tropes about women: women backstab other women, women just don’t step up to the plate, women change the nature of the workplace (That’s what the men of the Supreme Court judges said about Sandra Day O’Conner) and the writer states the same thing! Though intended kindly a gilded cage of kindness is still a cage. Women are not better than men nor are they less then men. They are actually humanly roughly the same in the two areas that really count: courage and compassion. And of course the flip side.

    Here is a way of making the same request that I would have responded more positively to had the poster blogged the following:

    Hi all,

    I have been really hurt by the negative blogging about men as a gender and as reduced to mere male anatomy. I would like to be embraced as a male feminist and recognized for my support of women – the strong and the weak. I believe that we can curb male misogyny without resorting to negative male stereotypes, as tempting as that may be when we are hurt by men both personally and in institutional oppression.

    I fight hard for women’s equality. Help me keep the faith by seeing each male as an individual and slam the men who are sexist as individuals lacking in character not as an entire faceless gender reduced to negative anecdotes and punch lines. I know women experience this all the time and I don’t want to hold them to a higher standard than men. However, I’d like for you to not focus on saying men think with their genitalia say Obama’s sexism is a failure of his courage, his character, and his upbringing and not entirely because he enjoys the privileges of being a male in a male-dominant society. I know it’s hard to acknowledge my request and need especially because I too enjoy the benefit of being a man in a society that rewards me more for being so. However, I sometimes get discouraged and I don’t want to. I want to fight for woman’s equality. They deserve the same right to make the wise choices and mistakes as men. I will do my utmost to do the same in regard to women.

    • NomNomNom

      wow, I wish I had seen your post earlier, gorgonica: you make a lot of excellent points.
      it’s also nice to see another McKinney voter! plz keep posting at nq :)