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Dick Cheney’s Lying Mind

How can Dick Cheney have any credibility about anything? This guy is on the record multiple times after 9-11 making the case that Saddam Hussein was in league with Osama bin Laden. And now he claims no such thing? Let’s start with the video evidence:

Want more?

Too bad John Edwards was not as concerned about telling the truth of his extramarital affair, but he did get it right in challenging Cheney. So now we have the spectacle of Dick Cheney debunking Dick Cheney. He tells Greta van Sustern:

“On the question of whether or not Iraq was involved in 9-11, there was never any evidence to prove that,” he told the Fox host. “There was “some reporting early on … but that was never borne out… [President] George [Bush] … did say and did testify that there was an ongoing relationship between al-Qaeda and Iraq, but no proof that Iraq was involved in 9-11.”

Watch the extended interview here:

Richard Clarke wrote an excellent op-ed recently recalling the fixation of the Bush Administration on Iraq in the immediate aftermath of 9/11:

The first response they discussed was invading Iraq. While the Pentagon was still burning, Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld was in the White House suggesting an attack against Baghdad. Somehow the administration’s leaders could not believe that al-Qaeda could have mounted such a devastating operation, so Iraqi involvement became the convenient explanation. Despite being told repeatedly that Iraq was not involved in 9/11, some, like Cheney, could not abandon the idea. Charles Duelfer of the CIA’s Iraq Survey Group recently revealed in his book, “Hide and Seek: The Search for Truth in Iraq,” that high-level U.S. officials urged him to consider waterboarding specific Iraqi prisoners of war so that they could provide evidence of an Iraqi role in the terrorist attacks — a request Duelfer refused. (A recent report indicates that the suggestion came from the vice president’s office.) Nevertheless, the lack of evidence did not deter the administration from eventually invading Iraq — a move many senior Bush officials had wanted to make before 9/11.

Thank God for videotape. While Bush and Cheney will try desperately to rewrite history, we know what they said and how they did their best to propagandize the American people.

  • Seattle Moss

    Folks,
    I want to take a moment to acknowledge both Ces and Doc for their relentless pursuit of peace through their efforts at trying to stop the hate fest that has been going on tonight.
    So I will wish everyone here at NQ the very best as we are all in this whirlwind together.
    I want to include all of you including the animals out there that have strong disagreements with me.

    • Docelder

      Yes Seattle, Remember that upcoming test for Obama. Tomorrow may be that pop quiz. We need everybody. ;)

      • Seattle Moss

        Doc,
        I’m still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that we are a Muslim country.

        Gosh darn!…
        I never got done reading the bible and now I’m probably going to have to start reading the Koran.
        I hope they have cliff notes. Better yet I will just watch the Al Queda training videos.

  • problem here

    So Larry, can I ask you if you will ever be able to MOVE ON? You keep posting about Cheney and Valarie. man that is history. Got anything pertinent to say about the last 120 days or are you going to stay in a time warp?

    Cheney lied, Bill Clinton lied, Bush lied but the 0 only tells the truth?

    I tire of old news, especially rehashed old news. Can we try something relevant to TODAY?

    • ScottVA

      I was going to make a similar comment about the “old news” part….

      I’m not sure why it’s important to keep hashing up all of this now that it’s over… It has been talked about re talked about and talked about again…

      We know he’s a liar (like the rest of them INCLUDING NOBAMA)… I think most people have come to terms with it all … well actually many more need to come to terms with NOBAMA being a liar and a cheat….. Frankly, I think this current crackpot we have in office is far worse and way more dangerous then the last regime we had here. I can’t even believe I’d ever say that after the Bush/Cheney years either….

  • Animal Control

    What was it they kept repeating that the smoking gun could come in the form of a mushroom cloud?
    Lying bastards all.

    • Seattle Moss

      I guess if we had seen the mushroom cloud you would be happy right.

      How’s that arm chair working for you?

      • Docelder

        My dear brothers, never forget, when you hear the progress of enlightenment vaunted, that the devil’s best trick is to persuade you that he doesn’t exist!

        Baudelaire 1864. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

      • Animal Control

        Seattle you are really just a sack of shit! You know everything and everybody and you cruise around Seattle and everyone is afraid of you, you’ve been everywhere. You’re more full than Johnny on the Spot. Have another drink you ignoramus!

        • Seattle Moss

          Why don’t you change your moniker you dip shit!

          Or take another hit of angel dust moron!

          • Onofre’s arm

            Another moniker for Animal Control? How about “Incontinent Critter”?

            • Docelder

              Incontinent Critter

              That would be my wife’s Malschi. ;)

        • Seattle Moss

          Yo Animal,
          Sure don’t like me much do you .Maybe you don’t have any skin in the game.

          I made a comment as an analogy about how I survived twenty years ago.
          My point is that if you are good at scaring your enemy then you don’t actually have to fight them
          No scars on my face asshat.

          As for people being afraid of me now..
          You wish jealous one!

          However as the manufacturer in this town I give my distributors all the opportunity to buy from me so that I won’t take it direct. I make it very clear to them that if they don’t buy from me, then I will surely take that business away from them and give it to somebody else.

          As a result of my strategy everyone does buy from me and in return they get the best service, the best product and protection from other distributors or manufacturers.

  • hokma

    Whatever the opinion on what happened and why we got into Iraq it is very old news and frankly irrelevant.

    The “brilliant” foreign policy of the great Obama has now allowed North Korea the open door to put the Pacific rim at the brink of a nuclear confrontation.

    And his now obvious anti-Israel policy has placed that country on a go-it-alone position against Iran, who Obama now says is acceptable to have nuclear power – as long as they give the great Obama a reasonable explanation by the end of the year. Israel is seriosuly gearing up for an attack on Iran which could develop into a full scale war.

    None of this was happening on Clinton or Bush’s watch because there was no Kumbaya naivety to foreign affairs prior to Obama.

    If you want to catch people at lying, watch Obama. He said he would never allow Iran to have nuclear weapons. He lied.

  • Ken Hoop

    Those who claim BushCheney protected America after 9/11 disparage the status as Americans of the thousands of US troops killed and maimed in the Iraq war they lied us into. Even most of the families of those killed agreed the war was not worth it by around 2006, according to an Editor and Publisher survey.

    The new Iraq government has pledged to defend Iran
    in event of US attack, and a Bush defender above claims the US now has Iran “surrounded.” LOL.

    • Seattle Moss

      The new Iraq government has pledged to defend Iran
      in event of US attack, and a Bush defender above claims the US now has Iran “surrounded.” LOL.

      I think it was just the other day that a General was talking about the next ten years in Iraq.
      Bottom line… WE will get out when we want to get out and not when Maliki or anybody else tells us to get out.
      As for Iraq defending Iran…LOL

      Our military controls the Iraq army the skies and everything that happens in that country.

  • candymarl

    Bush and Cheney’s job was to protect us from the moment they took the oath of office.

    The August 6th PDB clearly stated that Bin Laden was planning an attack here in America. What did Bush and Cheney do? According to Richard Clarke – nothing. Mr. Clarke warned them. The CIA warned them.

    To quote an old saying “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”

    • Seattle Moss

      So we should have spent 500 billion in 6 months creating homeland security which has taken years to put in place.
      I guess we could have shut the airspace down and called out the National guard to protect the airport gates.

      What would your response be to watching the economy collapse trying to prevent an event like 911. With no planes taking off..No attacks!

      of course you would blame bush for overreacting to the threats and bringing the economy to a halt…

      Sometimes you can’t win for losing!

      • candymarl

        You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m just saying heightened vigilance and following up on intelligence reports, something I know a little bit about, was in order. There were FBI agents sounding the alarm as well. They were shut down by their superiors.

        As someone else mentioned, the flight school instructor was concerned about the behavior of the flight trainees.

        I said an ounce of prevention. I never suggested that an entire bureaucracy needed to be created.

        The millennium attacks never took place because the word was passed to the proper national and international agencies. There was no Department of Homeland Security then. Just good old-fashioned intelligence and police work.

        • Seattle Moss

          The millennium attacks never took place because the word was passed to the proper national and international agencies. There was no Department of Homeland Security then. Just good old-fashioned intelligence and police work.

          The Millennium attacks never took place by pure luck
          A border guard in Port Angeles, Wa just happened to not trust an individual that was shifty and sweaty so they checked his trunk and found bombs
          Totally a local event and nothing to do with anything else….

        • Seattle Moss

          The millennium attacks never took place because the word was passed to the proper national and international agencies. There was no Department of Homeland Security then. Just good old-fashioned intelligence and police work.

          Only the sharp eye of a lonely border security guard in Port Angeles, Wa prevented the millennium attacks
          Nothing more…Nothing less!

      • FLDemFem

        If the FAA had been notified of the threat, then they could have set up metal detectors and prevented the terrorists from boarding the planes with box cutters. That wouldn’t have cost $500 billion, and could have been put in place in a matter of days, not months. It would have saved us from the attacks and from spending untold billions on a war we shouldn’t have started in the first place. So, we wouldn’t be in the huge debt hole we are currently in, we would still have the World Trade Center, and thousands of Americans would still be alive. Saddam, who was mostly bluster and bombast, would still be a secular buffer between Iran and Afghanistan. Saddam hated Al Queda, he did not support them or enable them in any way, despite Cheney’s claims. We would be much better off all around if only Bush had informed the FAA and the FBI of the threat mentioned in the August briefing document. The person who handed him that document was told, “Fine, now you have covered your ass.” Now Cheney is trying to cover his ass, and Bush’s, for ignoring that same document.

        • Seattle Moss

          If the FAA had been notified of the threat, then they could have set up metal detectors and prevented the terrorists from boarding the planes with box cutters.

          Who’s paying for them…
          Who’s building them.
          Who’s installing them.
          Where’s the contract.
          What’s the lead time..

          You have six months to respond..

          Get real!

          • TeakWoodKite

            Seattle, I recall the gits that came down from Maine to Logan were seen on camera passing through metal detectors, to no avail.

            What was and is needed is communication via a lucid chain of command and lines of authority that work in concert with each other, not as Mr. Johnson has recently raised a real concern, that the “wall” is back and turf battles are on the rise.

            None of this bodes well.

    • Hg

      You have to know the make-up, call it character or attitude, of the Texas oilman to even begin to understand the Shrub. In their mind they are always right and nothing will ever change that attitude and/or thought till the day they die. Even mama Bush can never convince her son that he might be in error and papa Bush is just another opponent who he had to overcome and/or prove wrong. That is why he was such a poor business man. Shrub was an incorrigable when on the sauce.

      • Seattle Moss

        You have to know the make-up, call it character or attitude, of the Texas oilman to even begin to understand the Shrub. In their mind they are always right and nothing will ever change

        Watching movies again.
        I bet you don’t even know one person that was an oil man….I know many including my father who was a democrat.
        One thing about oil folks. All have made lots of money and most have lost it all and started all over again..You know what they call that..Character!

        • FLDemFem

          Bush never made any money as an oil man. He lost millions of his investors money drilling dry holes. His daddy’s friends kept funding him, though, as a favor to Bush, Sr. And I know several oil men, my father was a Texan, and my uncle still lives in Dallas. He has lots of friends in the oil business, and none of them is anything like George Bush. They are honest men who work hard for a living, not self-indulgent narcissists whose way through life was greased by daddy’s money and influence.

          • Seattle Moss

            What’s your point!

            Enjoy Obama..Your hate earned him….

            • FLDemFem

              I voted for Hillary in the primaries and for Green Party in the election. I am in no way responsible for Obummer being in office. But people like you who seem to take him at face value without looking behind the curtain are. I cannot enjoy Obummer, he is on the way to destroying my country. I am sure you will enjoy the profit you make while he does so. As long as he lets you keep it.

              • Seattle Moss

                I voted for Hillary in the primaries and for Green Party in the election.

                I voted for Hillary in the primary and was no fool to waste my vote on the Green party that considers business the enemy. I voted for McCain and I’m proud of my vote.

                I am in no way responsible for Obummer being in office.

                Big deal neither am I…

                But people like you who seem to take him at face value without looking behind the curtain are.

                What are you talking about??
                I’m against Obama on just about everything especially his willful capitulation of american power and his assault on those that employ people and are productive

                I am sure you will enjoy the profit you make while he does so.

                My goal is to keep my business running and the folks that manufacture product for me in their jobs so that they can continue to care for their families..
                Got a problem with that?

      • http://! stodgie

        Hg, stop acting silly! you are embarrasing yourself. i never liked bush as governor or president. however i also don’t like unfair dissing by people like yourself who don’t know a dang thing about texas.

  • HARP

    Cheney lied…….not exactly breaking news. Once again did MSM do any investigative reporting….crickets.

    Cheney can`t have any influence on my life anymore…..Obama can….move on for God`s sake.

    • Ladydawnelle

      It might be easier to move on if the OLD BALD BUZZARD would just get the hail out of dodge and stfu!

      but will he?

      NoOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo! :-/

      go away chainsaw
      just go away

    • Hg

      Let sleeping dogs lie. Watch the cur that is barking. Cheney wants to sell a book, I say let him go for it. As for the barking cur, a coward who stated “I was not lucky enough to have served” [in the Armed Forces] is a liar and a thief, who inherited nothing but stole his position and is the greatest danger ever posed to America.

      • Ladydawnelle

        yea was it 4 or 5 deferments?

        punk coward

        • Seattle Moss

          Lot of punk cowards back then

          Everyone for themselves…Ask WJC

  • Craig Della Penna

    The problem with sociopaths such as Cheney and Obama is that they have no connection with referential truth, that is, they do not connect their words and thoughts with anything external to their own internal narrative.

    This is why they can lie so effectively: at the moment they are making a statement they actually believe it to be true. Their next statement can completely contradict the first one and they will deliver it as compellingly as the first one since they believe the new statement to be true as well.

    It can take quite some time to discover this fundamental property about them (some people never do and continue to drink the koolaid) but once they have been identified as sociopaths, the solution is plain: since they always lie – never believe anything they say.

    Listening to Cheney about anything at all is a complete waste of time. In like wise, listening to Obama…

  • beebop

    we know what they said and how they did their best to propagandize the American people.

    … this is happening daily in this country without dicky and shrub taking any active role in what is happening contemporaneously. I’m less concerned about rewriting history than I am with 0bama’s WRITING of it!

    Crickets for what is happening in North Korea? I think they are a more real problem than anyone would know from reading this blog!

    • Ladydawnelle

      I know I was sooooo shocked yesterday when the news of the long range missile tests came on FOX (BIG NEWS TO ME) and immediately (as they went to commercial) switched to CNN and MSNBO and neither one had or reported DIDDLY about it for (who knows how long cuz I went back to Fox after about 5 minutes, which is a friggen LIFE time in NEWS time trust me)

      NOT a word!!

      (admittedly they “could have” already reported on it but I believe FOX holds the title of getting MOST war news, etc, first)

      the others just do NOT want to hear about it
      friggen sad beyond words

      • Seattle Moss

        switched to CNN and MSNBO and neither one had or reported DIDDLY about it

        You have met the enemy within!

    • Seattle Moss

      I’m less concerned about rewriting history than I am with 0bama’s WRITING of it!

      Exactly!
      We live in a time where terrorism no longer is seen as a threat to some. Some have mentioned that we have very little chance personally of getting attacked and we are more likely to get hit by lightening.
      For those that think that terrorism is no big deal..

      Let me remind you that all of you have suffered greatly by the 911 attacks…I mean all of you!!

      We are still suffering today the consequences of a hundred dollars worth of box cutters.

      The economic collapse today the collapse of America and most of the world economy can be directly linked to that fateful day. Instead of having the depression in 2001 Greenspan put off that date by hyping the housing market which led to collapse and the ruin of many companies and lives.

      • beebop

        The family of yesterday’s two victims of Islamic terrorism don’t need any further proof.

      • ziggy

        I agree.

        But are we suffering more from the event itself, or from the consequences of our ill-considered, knee-jerk reaction to it?

        The attack cost the terrorists less than $500 thousand to carry out. The invasion of Iraq has so far cost us nearly $675 billion. A bit of arithmetic suggests the degree to which our chosen reaction has potentiated their effort and multiplied our damages.

        Not to mention the fact that Iraq has cost more American lives than the attack itself did.

        No point dwelling on the past. But there may be important lessons we have missed that could guide us in the future.

      • TeakWoodKite

        Some have mentioned that we have very little chance personally of getting attacked and we are more likely to get hit by lightening.

        That line of thinking has always bothered this Kite.

        I need no reminder Seattle Moss. “suffering today the consequences” of a failure of imagination. The Box cutters are just a manifestation of this.

        It is of note that UBL himself was quite plain spoken about his intentions in economic terms.

    • Hg

      Odd you should bring that up. Obama wants to make history but he is so damned secretive of his own [past]history. Its like, focus on what I am doing and not on what I did and who I am (like where is the damned genuine birth certificate) But what he is doing is camouflaged with wedge issues like judges, gay rights, bailouts, ETC ETC ETC! Trevor Louden @ New Zeal had a helluva an article out the other day on Obama’s “Communist Ties”.

    • FLDemFem

      But..but..but..Obummer told them to not do that anymore. And that it was a bad thing to do!! So that should be the end of it, right? Right? So why report on something that Obummer has already dealt with?

      oh, btw, that was pure snark..hehehe.

  • FLDemFem

    Well, don’t worry about it, Obummer will fix it all when he apologizes to the Middle East for our bad attitude towards Islam. Or so CNN reports.
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/02/obama.trip/index.html

    “There are misapprehensions about the West on the part of the Muslim world. And, obviously, there are some big misapprehensions about the Muslim world when it comes to those of us in the West,” Obama said in a recent interview with the BBC.

    And he is going to fix it with a speech. I wonder if he is going to apologize to them for our “attitudes” making 9/11 necessary. Is he going to work on their misconceptions about us, or just tell them that we don’t have a clue about Muslims and hate them because a few of them blew up the World Trade Center?

    As for Cheney, why hasn’t anyone asked him why the August report saying that Al Queda was reported to be planning to use planes in an attack wasn’t followed up? Why was the report ignored and no memo to the FBI to keep an eye out for reports such as the one sent by the owner of a FL flying school who sent them the information that he had had two students who were foreigners and interested in learning to fly, but not learning to land? That alone should have raised red flags all over the place, and the FAA should have been alerted. But I guess that Bush and Cheney’s vacations were more important than national security. And besides, 9/11 gave them the opportunity to expand exponentially the powers of the President, and Vice President. So, apart from the 3,000+ dead people, it was a win/win situation for them. Why hasn’t anyone asked these questions of Cheney while he is spewing forth his BS??

    • Doc99
    • Docelder

      That hopey changey voice inflected trance speak won’t work so well on somebody who doesn’t speak native English. He is in for a rude awakening.

    • Seattle Moss

      And besides, 9/11 gave them the opportunity to expand exponentially the powers

      of the United States and grow the American sphere of influence where we now have the enemy Iran surrounded on two sides.
      We have also extended permanently our position logistically in the center of the middle east to thwart blackmail and attempts and using oil as a weapon
      What was that word I like to use….

      Oh yeah…Brilliant!!

      Yes, the Iraq war is brilliant and someday you will remember Moss telling you so…

      • Docelder

        Painting Al Qaeda into a corner and marginalizing them in Afghanistan was brilliant as well. Until, Obama increased the troops in Afghanistan and flushed them into Pakistan. Not so brilliant. People want to criticize Bush for not finishing Afghanistan… who in all of history finishes Afghanistan? That was never the plan. The plan was for Al Qaeda to occupy Afghanistan, so they would be the empire that dies trying to do this. Not us.

        • ces

          Talk about revisionism….

          • Seattle Moss

            Even for you ces that’s pretty lame come back don’t you think…

            • Docelder

              Yep, but how does somebody refute the truth? When we are bogged down in Obama’s “Vietnam” named Afghanistan… people may start to get it. Maybe. Don’t call it Bush’s Afghanistan, Bush knew better than to try to occupy the “end of the Earth”. Bush had painted Al Qaeda into that role. Obama has flipped it. Now Al Qaeda has Pakistan going unstable with nukes. Meanwhile we are doubling down in occupying Afghanistan. I thought he was supposed to be the smartest President ever?

              • Seattle Moss

                Afganistan is Obama’s waterloo!

                Didn’t anybody tell him about the geography of the place.

                Even the terrorists don’t like eating dirt and living in caves.

                They got Swat valley on their minds and nukes in their dreams

                • http://! stodgie

                  seattle, i am sitting thinking about the plural of waterloo. in fact i think there will be more than one. apologizing for the usa and “thoughtful comtemplation” won’t impress the world’s bad guys.

            • ces

              What more do I need to say? The entire post’s premise is absurd on its face.

              So the surge (of cash) in Iraq “worked” but now oBlunder does the same thing in Afghanistan and it’s suddenly wrong? (I’m not saying it’s wrong or right, but I’m questioning Doceleder’s assertion.)

              Bush didn’t study history so of course he repeated it by “not finishing” Afghanistan.

              The plan was go find the bloody SOB who actually inspired 9/11, not set ourselves up as intruding Zionists that will for generations to come create people who hate us.

              Saddam was secular, so he ruled everybody with an iron fist, including relgious radicals like the Taliban and Al Qaeda. OSB has no footing in Iraq, because he was perceived as a threat to Saddam’s influence.

              The reason we went after Saddam was because he was withdrawing giving us cheap oil, like the Saudi’s do (who also provided us with most of he hijackers, if you remember.)

              We will NEVER paint Al Qaeda into a corner by using shock and awe type military force. Using Special Forces troops to win over the warlords is what has worked in Afghanistan.

              We don’t mess with Pakistan because 1) the bomb, and 2) India (ie. we mess with Pak., Indian gets hit–again–for being our buddy).

              Our “sphere of influence” will ebb as the money ebbs, regardless of the Green Zone. That and our influence isn’t exactly working that well as it is, right now seeing as European companies are still doing biz with Iran.

              Which brings us back to those who put us into this mess. Bush and Dick. Which is why Cheney’s book tour opens him up to continued criticism. These clowns squandered what international goodwill we had post 9/11.

              You want national security, ride a bike to work!

              • Docelder

                I have heard Obama say that Bush dropped the ball by letting Al Qaeda reorganize in Afghanistan. I heard Kerry say much the same thing, that Bush neglected the real fight for 7 years. O.K. Just consider that eliminating Al Qaeda is not feasible. What then? Marginalize them. If you were to do that, how would you do it? Paint them into a corner in Afghanistan. Let them occupy the land that has ruined empires since we can remember. Or like seattle said, not even Al Qaeda likes living in caves, eating dirt and I might add living with camel spiders. If there was an end to the Earth, surely it would be in Afghanistan. So, now Obama wants to eliminate Al Qaeda, do the same thing that he said would not work in Iraq. Afghanistan is not Iraq, and we need not try to eliminate Al Qaeda. Marginalizing them and giving them a stifled kingdom in Afghanistan is all we need. They think they are doing well, and let them think that. So long as we keep the violence off our turf, we win. No this is not perfect, I don’t think perfect is an option we have anymore.

                • ces

                  Docelder,

                  Your premise is that Al Qaeda was somewhere else before 9/11 and that post-9/11 we needed to marginalize them by pushing them INTO Afghanistan.

                  That premise is false. They were ALREADY based in Afghanistan, not Iraq. We didn’t need to go to Iraq to push them to Afghanistan. But by us going into Iraq, we first brought all religious/sectarian fighters to Iraq, including, I’m sure, the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Then after our brothers and sisters died from all those IEDs, we then decide, “oh, maybe Afghanistan is where the bad guys are at.”

                  And moreover, the premise also assumes that we can contain them like cattle. This was my point about persons vs. ideology. You can fight people (meatware) with the Tools of War, but you can’t fight ideology with lead and jet fuel. You can’t contain the ideology with guns.

                  And finally, it’s foolish (in my opinion) to think that just because we have boots on the ground in the largest embassy in the world, that religious radicals won’t try another 9/11 here at home. Finding those buggers take the same kind of international investigative work that stopped the Centennial bombers and put the 1993 WTC bombers in jail forever. And it takes stronger borders here at home, as well as international police support abroad. Because of the torture and secret rendition “issue” most countries don’t want to give up that public support, because the don’t want to be seen by their own people as being torturers.

                  And finally, it is our overwhelming military presence in Iraq (and other places like Saudia Arabia) that will be the rallying cry for a larger increase in Al Qaeda membership.

                  • Seattle Moss

                    And finally, it is our overwhelming military presence in Iraq (and other places like Saudia Arabia) that will be the rallying cry for a larger increase in Al Qaeda membership.

                    Your solution is to cut and run and hide and apologize like little wimpy pacifists and hopefully they will just thank us for leaving.

                    Just to let you know…
                    It’s our overwhelming presence in the region that keeps the oil flowing so that you can keep blogging on your computer made of plastic and being able to afford to pay the electrical bill to keep the turned on.

                    • ces

                      Oh sMoss…[sigh]…. ;)

                      1. And CUTting and PASTEing GOP talking points
                      a. doesn’t make the statement true.
                      b. doesn’t advance the dialogue.

                      2. Being against an unjustified and arguably illegal invasion does NOT make anyone a WIMPY PACIFIST by default. [Analogy: just because I need water to drink, doesn't mean I go try to kill everyone out on the reservoir.]

                      3. Iraq’s oil production finally recovered to pre-2003 levels in 2007. But where has the oil gone? Our domestic gasoline/diesel prices have not gone down, ie. supply has not increased. If you have statistics showing how much oil the US is getting from Iraq, I’d love to see it.

                      4. Moreover, most of our imported oil is still from Saudi Arabia. And further, the price of our Hummer Elixir ™ has not dropped because of peak oil.

                      5. So, regardless of how many Green Zones we set up in the ME, oil ain’t gonna be the solution to much longer.

                      Which is where I differ from my other Tree Huggers: I’m all for tax subsidized and govt. regulated NUKE power (like most of Europe and UK uses).

                      6. I use my computers into the ground (my 11 year old Powerbook G3-Lombard is still used. And when they’re dead, I recycle. And when we buy a new house? Geothermal, solar, and hopefully even wind. And our next car will be an Insight or Prius. AND before moving the south, I rode my bike or walked to work. So, the view from up here on MY soapbox is damn good.

                      Dinner bell….! (That’s one rule I don’t dare break!!)

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      Thank you, ces. You have an ability to cut through the claptrap with a clarity that I pay tribute to.

                    • Seattle Moss

                      Hey Ces,
                      No GOP talking points from this guy. I was against the war as I have said many times, but conditions have changed and so have I based on the developing threats that we are now positioned to confront.
                      I’m saddened that you can’t get past the hate and are stuck in the past and are unable to see with fresh eyes the new reality of today.
                      I can walk around all day telling everyone I told them so about Iraq and the rise of Obama as a result but I can say that about a lot of things.
                      I’m just glad we are in the middle of what is emerging as the FINAL CONFLICT of our times

                      Enjoy your dinner!

                    • Seattle Moss

                      So, the view from up here on MY soapbox is damn good.

                      I’m glad you think the view is so good.
                      Enjoy the windmills.They make a lot of noise and they kill birds.
                      Enjoy your Prius..It takes more energy to manufacture and uses more harmful elements to the environment than a regular car.

                      I’m sure you eat food from the store

                      Do you realize what it takes to put a single apple in your mouth

                      Without my industrial bags you don’t get to eat apples or fish or anything that requires a barrier to nature in transport to keep fresh.
                      and that’s just the bag
                      The amount of energy to farm, produce, to cultivate, to transport to put on the shelf, so that you can drive home with that single apple is mind boggling.

                      Keep your soapbox..Even that took oil to produce…

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      I’m just glad we are in the middle of what is emerging as the FINAL CONFLICT of our times

                      Not by a long shot. This isn’t about the Bible or anything else. It is, however, about truly stupid neocons and their failure to learn a thing from history.

                      That Bush did this and then laid it in the lap of a neophyte like Odumba speaks volumes about the idiocy of the previous administration. They did not even consider the potential administrations to come after them. Cheney, the ignorant, only thought of his own aggrandizement and potential for dollars. Try weaseling out of this fiasco.

                      Oh, BTW: The “end times” to which you refer are non-existent. Stop it, I mean, really.

                    • Seattle Moss

                      From your posts I know you hate Israel and could care less if they get nuked someday.

                      Are you not comprehending what’s happening with the rise of Iran and the threats that are building in Pakistan.
                      I don’t think you care. As long as Israel is going down your fine with it..Right?

                      I have a life to live and a company to build. I will be damned if I allow my country to surrender it’s influence in the world and allow a regional genocidal war to occur where the United States is unable to affect the outcome.

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      If you are talking to me, Seattle, you are truly way off-base. My mother is a Nash and also a Greek Jew, which makes me Jewish by birth. However, I do not share you Xtian view that the world will end tomorrow because “your” God wills it. You Xtians need to consult a Rabbi prior to making any statement about our book, which you gave up long ago.

                      And stop the melodrama about the terrorists as it will be your undoing. This country is stronger than That One, you, and any terrorists. I mean, really, you do go on for no reason other than scaring the wits out of people who know no better. Just stop it.

                    • Seattle Moss

                      Did you not read my post the other day about the continuing costs of 911.
                      I know you didn’t respond!
                      You yourself right now are being affected by what a hundred dollars in box cutters did to this nation.
                      Your stocks and the value of your house and the costs of oil can all be directly linked to what happened on 911.
                      The world economy is like a swiss watch. Every person on the planet continues to feel the effects of what these so called malcontents did that day.
                      I’m no religious freak and I sure don’t have time to read the crap you just brought up.
                      I’m a realist and I see the threats.
                      Living on both sides of the Atlantic I have spent my entire life studying history and current events.
                      I see history repeating itself right now.
                      No religious gobbligook for me.

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      I see history repeating itself right now.

                      Yeah, Seattle, the dumb in this country seem to be re-asserting the dumb. I am sick of the lowest-common denominator and people who shouldn’t vote. Those who voted for Dubya and That One are beyond help.

                      And don’t ever lecture me again on Israel or Judaism, or those continuing “costs” of 9/11. If your hero Dumbya and Dickless Cheney had actually done something, we might be in a better position now,

                      Face it–you are wrong about the last administration but correct about the current one. The truth will set you free. That One = Chimpy Mc Flight-Suit.

                    • ces

                      Oh my, where to begin….

                      I hate Israel? They are big boys and girls and can/do take care of themselves. They have nukes and wouldn’t hesitate to use them. I have no problem with someone defending themselves. But our support of Israel who is heavy-handed a good bit of the time just adds to the tension, which adds to Iran’s desire for Nukes. Or course, the Iran prez is nuts, but the mullahs have the power, not him. And I don’t think Dick and Bush and all their evangelical pals care about Israel either. They want oil, and they think Israel helps with that. And those KJVers want the end of times to come, so they want Iran to launch the missle. More wings for them. Sorry, I’m a bit attached to living my life to worry about helping a society stay afloat long enough so they can be blinked out by a bomb, just so I meet St. Peter.

                      So, I care, sMoss, just not THAT much.

                      Despite our presence in Iraq and the ME since what 1994 (with GWI), Iran still has its nuclear program moving forward. So again, our presence has NOT made a DAMN bit of difference to Iran.

                      The phrase “cut and run” was/is a GOP talking point. Fact.

                      Hate? What am I hating? Dick and Bush? What does hate have to do with it? I just think their policies and nation crush-n-building was wrong from the start and were executed poorly. Your FEAR of Obama has lead you to embrace a completely opposing view. The past influenced what happens today. We’re at a more severe disadvantage today compared to early 2003 because of those clownsn.

                      Do I like oBlunders Prostrate Tour? Of course not. I think it’s JUST as dangerous. But do I suddenly forgive the War Council for their crimes because Mr. Zero is doing some ass kissing? HELL NO. Two wrongs just don’t add up.

                      We have O because of W. (I hope I don’t have to explain that.)

                      Windmills: There’s personal size, too. And let’s talk about those mountains-that-not-be-anymore out East. Clean cool, my arse. Prius/cars: My carbon footprint for the life of the car will be less, despite the auto/oil/tire lobbyists propaganda. And that’s not even touching on the fact that the cars available in the UK/Europe are about twice as efficient. And if we had plugin hybrids, we could cut down on oil even more.

                      Industrial agriculture is wrong at so many levels, and hasn’t done anyone any favors. We’d still eat our apples or other fruit, but we’d pay the real cost and eat it in season. It’s what freezers are for. And if we had a rail system in place we could reduce those exports costs by not relying on inefficient and higher-polluting semi-trucks. And gosh, I just happen to be a product of two farming families, so I know a thing or two about what it takes to eat our apple pie.

                      Does your company’s future depend on Israel? Wow. Kosher bags, kewl! ;) You’re a smart human, you have the capability to create whatever you need to to survive. And we should using recycled plastics as much as we can, so you’re livelihood doesn’t depend on foreign oil, period.

                      REDUCE. REUSE. RECYCLE…(talking points need not apply)

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      ces, you are a treasure and I concur. With a little bit of luck, such centrist views could be the norm, heaven forbid.

                      Ferd

                    • Seattle Moss

                      Ces,Does your company’s future depend on Israel? Wow. Kosher bags, kewl! ;) You’re a smart human, you have the capability to create whatever you need to to survive. And we should using recycled plastics as much as we can, so you’re livelihood doesn’t depend on foreign oil, period.

                      REDUCE. REUSE. RECYCLE…(talking points need not apply)

                      You can’t make my bags from recycled resin.They are not strong and fall apart. All bags used in food processing must be FDA approved and use virgin resins….
                      sorry for the reality!

                    • Seattle Moss

                      industrial agriculture is wrong at so many levels, and hasn’t done anyone any favors.

                      You may have never had the opportunity to be born without the shear number of people that exist only because there is enough food and energy to keep them alive.
                      Do you know why we have 6 billion people on this planet…
                      Industrial agriculture!
                      Unless you want a population implosion your stuck with the world we have….
                      I’m more than happy to be an integral part of the food chain and defend which I must those who have no clue on how the world really works.

                    • ces

                      But don’t you have the tools to create bags for other products that DO use recycled plastic.

                      Of course it’s a huge reinvestment, but you COULD do it, right?

                      Not sayin’ I want to put you out of biz, of course!!!

                    • ces

                      Do you know how many people are starving now BECAUSE of corp ag?

                      Sell the seed that doesn’t produce viable seed, so the country has to buy seeds every year.

                      Now there’s IMPROVEMENT, I tell ya.

                      /snark

                      And we wouldn’t have to worry about those 6 billion and the resources (oil…ding ding ding) if we’d as a species live within our means ala REDUCE.

                    • ces

                      Thanks Ferd. I try. [shrug]

                      My parents are staunch GOP, my bro is on the wacky side of Libertarian, and many of my close friends are flaming liberals. What’s a poor bloke to do?!?!

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      You may have never had the opportunity to be born without the shear number of people that exist only because there is enough food and energy to keep them alive.

                      Does it ever occur that perhaps we have just a tad too many people? Forget what God said about going forth and multiplying–we’ve done it by more than a geometric progression or two. Which part of finite planet fails to get through to you Bible bangers?

                    • Seattle Moss

                      Population implosion does seem to be in our future
                      Just like other bubbles Mankind has created an unsustainable population which will lead to famine and wars.

                      As for recycled bags.
                      I produce millions of bags that use a blend of recycle and virgin material and all plastic is reused within my plant.
                      However, recycled bags are used to cover or bag products not coming into contact with food.
                      I also make biodegradable bags but they cost twice as much and are much weaker and used more as a marketing gimmick by my customers because plastic really is forever.Just broken down into smaller inert pieces over time.

                      As long as we have the level of population in the world today there is no escaping the manufacturing processes that provide for maximum yield of food.
                      My job is to point out the realities and how vulnerable we are to any interruption in this cycle.

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      My parents are staunch GOP, my bro is on the wacky side of Libertarian, and many of my close friends are flaming liberals. What’s a poor bloke to do?!?!

                      Laugh and cry, all at the same time. That river which is constituted of my tears isn’t going away anytime soon.

                      That being said, I have left the Democratic party because they or no better than Republicans. Where I’m at in East Tennessee, I at least have access to Republicans and make my feelings known. Surprisingly, they do listen. What a concept.

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      My job is to point out the realities and how vulnerable we are to any interruption in this cycle.

                      Oh, for God’s sake. Let’s look at the reality, shall we?

                      Sounds like the realities that GM was talking about only a few years ago, along with the dipshit neocons. Why, there is no need to conserve; why we wouldn’t be selling these houseboat-size gas guzzlers if they weren’t being purchased. LMAO-what a stupid bit of pandering. Sounds like That One, doesn’t it?

                      We can’t possibly cater to those who want fuel-efficient vehicles. LMAO again. They should be allowed to fold.

                      Ask Cheney–he was a proponent of take and take and give nothing back.

                      Guess who is eating those words about now?

                    • Seattle Moss

                      I’m done with you…

                      Enjoy retirement!

                    • ces

                      Yeah, at least I was blessed with decent fair follicle genes; if they were any weaker, I’d be bald.

                      Where I live, I could spit be guaranteed to hit an Elephant. (no zoo jokes, please!) But then Texas is…well, Texas. I think it’s the heat….

                      Live long and wear condoms! Or ah, something like that…

                    • ces

                      Hopefully you’re not mad, Seattle Moss, none of this is personal. At least, it hasn’t been from or to me.

                      It’s good meaningful banter. Good for the soul. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here at NQ.

                      So, I’m just gonna say, Good Night!

                      Be Well!

                    • Seattle Moss

                      One reason why I left Texas twenty years ago was because I realized that we live in a world of finite resources and that Cities that rely on artificial means to survive will some day cease to exist.
                      I don’t have an air conditioner!
                      I don’t need one and even though it’s 90 degrees here today I also don’t run a fan. I commute less than 2 miles to work. There is an abundance of good soil and beautiful rain that allows us to harvest many types of crops. The fish that comes from Alaska and brought here using my bags are the only self sustainable fishing grounds in the entire world.
                      Crunch time is coming and those that have to spend money on energy to keep cool and live in the suburbs where they have to drive to buy a loaf of bread are the big losers.
                      My degree is in Resource use and Planning..I guess you can say I’m way ahead of the curve on that…

                    • Seattle Moss

                      Ces,

                      Just so you know…I still love Texas and the individualistic minded people that live in that great state.
                      I count you among them and appreciate your willingness to see the world through a manufacturers eyes.
                      I have lived in Austin,San Marcos and Houston and my mother still lives there and I always get nostalgic visiting each year.
                      Hey Mom if you’re lurking out there I love you!

                    • Docelder

                      Seattle, the San Marcos area is one of my favorite places in Texas. I never lived there, but I love that town. It is clean, has a college and is an hour from Austin or San Antonio. It even has all the outlet malls. If I could though, I would pick Wimberly I think. That crystal clear river running through the town.. it is nice. There is no way to get out of Florida right now. My house has lost nearly half it’s value and there are way too many empty ones to even try to sell anytime soon. But, I miss Texas. If I ever get back there, I would never leave. ;)

                    • Seattle Moss

                      Hey Doc,
                      You have hit my number..

                      My first wife and I went on our honey moon to Wimberly Texas.
                      We didn’t have much money so we stayed in a bed and breakfast and swam out in the local rivers which are always cool in the Texas heat.

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      But, I miss Texas. If I ever get back there, I would never leave.

                      As a born and raised Oklahoman, I’d say you aren’t missing much. The last time I was in Texas, (Plano) it was so polluted my sinuses hurt for a week. I also have to ask why on God’s earth you would live in Florida with bugs bigger than my fist.

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      I’m done with you…

                      Enjoy retirement!

                      This Jewish, not pandering, real American will not retire since I plan on working until I die. You see, you silly “business” types think you can talk the rest of us into the grave and get your free work from our neighbors to the south. I was on to you Seattle a long time ago. Your only claim to fame is your ability to talk up a non-existent terrorist threat against your own need for cheap labor from Mexico. You won’t pay prevailing wage, because you don’t have to. Stop the nonsense, I mean, really.

                      I lived in West Richland from 1999 to 2007 and I know about your type. I bet you are a Tim Eyeman fan, who was nearly named a horse’s ass. You are no patriot and I am done with you, too.

                    • Seattle Moss

                      So tell us what you know about San Marcos and the Edwards aquifer and the cool river that flows out of the side of the hills in a waterfall that surrounds the area.
                      Tell us all about Wimberly and the gentle rolling hills.
                      Tell us about Central Texas and the beautiful bonzi forests that represent all four ecosystems in the US.
                      Of course you know none of that because you come from dreadful flat ass Oklahoma and only have an impression of Texas based on Plano.
                      Sometimes Ferd you should just shut the fuck up if you don’t have something positive to say.
                      Your posts are getting stranger by the day…Maybe you should pull that Cheney out of your hate mongering ass and join the rest of us..
                      At least ten other people in just the past few days have said the same thing about you…
                      Get some help dude!

                    • Docelder

                      We came 10 years ago to Florida to be near my wife’s folks. They since moved back North, because it became unaffordable to live in Florida. Now, everybody’s houses have fallen to about half and a lot are sitting empty. I grew up in Oklahoma myself. Funny, growing up in Oklahoma, all I ever wanted to be was a Texan. Oklahoma is or was such a boom or bust place. When I went into college, I was the only male in the school to do so. Everybody else I knew who could went to the oil fields. They made insane money for high school kids, of course it was short lived. So, of course when I could I went to Dallas. Dallas is chock full of Oklahomans it seems. That is the thing, you always meet people “from” Oklahoma… I think because young people leave there as soon as they can. I even miss Dallas, just not I-635 traffic. I think mostly I miss the Texas attitude… and the food, Texas has the best food. ;)

                    • ces

                      Oh guys(?) stop it, or I’ll have to tell you about Oregon….[sigh]…my body doesn’t like this humidity. Ouch.

                      Ferd, try riding a bike in DFW…egads. I’ve had more sinus problems here than the other five states I’ved lived in, including the Detroit area!!

                      Texas has at least one good thing…my wife! ;)

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      Dallas is chock full of Oklahomans it seems. That is the thing, you always meet people “from” Oklahoma…

                      False generalization, huh, Tex?

                      I’ve never lived in Texas and don’t plan on it.

                      Try again. Better yet, I do hope that your Governor makes good on his intent to secede from the union. It is within the right of Texas to so do and I, for one, would encourage it.

                    • Ferd Berfle

                      Ferd, try riding a bike in DFW…egads. I’ve had more sinus problems here than the other five states I’ved lived in, including the Detroit area!!

                      ces:

                      I rode a bike from Dallas to Amarillo–a water buffalo.

                      That being said, I will not and cannot concede to the sorts that populate South Oklahoma (Texas). They gave us both Johnson and Bush and were proud of it–why should I care a tinker’s cuss about them?

                    • Seattle Moss

                      Poor Ferd,

                      your own need for cheap labor from Mexico. You won’t pay prevailing wage, because you don’t have to.

                      You can’t be taken serious anymore!

                      My product is made in Seattle by folks that live in Seattle and unlike Unions all employees have a real stake in the company. We have the lowest turnover in the industry and was the first to hire a woman to run the plant.
                      Since you’re wrong about my business maybe you might be wrong about other things too

                      Just saying…

                    • Docelder

                      I do hope that your Governor makes good on his intent to secede from the union.

                      Ferd to be honest, if Texas did that I would use my Texas born kids as anchor babies and try to get back. Oklahoma is a great place to be from. Not so much to live there, but that is just me. They do have the best barbeque ribs of anywhere though. I will give it that much.

                      ces, I still have brothers in the Dallas area. Mostly, I miss the food, though my wife makes really good Tex Mex herself. I would probably go nuts were it not for that. I miss going to La Calle Doce, Campisi’s and the Traildust… but maybe I just need to get something to eat. ;)

                    • ces

                      Ain’t NQ great?!?!!

                      :D

                      I won’t ask ya kiss up or anything, but…This place wouldn’t be worth nuthin’ if ya’ll get banned for not playin’ nice.

                      Be happy we have what we have. M’kay?

                      /referee’s hat

                    • Docelder

                      I hate to see these guys beating each other up. We are all in the same boat as it were… the USS Hopenchange. We need all eyes looking out for icebergs and mines, because they are coming.

                    • Seattle Moss

                      Doc,
                      All I can say
                      HopeHeChanges!

                    • Docelder

                      These are hard times for everybody. This is probably more accurately an undeclared depression. Bu we will prevail. Payback will be a mf… to borrow creatively from Samuel L. Jackson… for these socialists. ;)

            • ces

              We’ll see if my response gets out of the NQ’s filter…

              • Seattle Moss

                time to e-mail susan…

                • ces

                  Gotta love blog CPR. ;)

                  Now we’ll see if it’s even there! Ha!

                  • Seattle Moss

                    You know I always love reading your thoughtful comments….

                    • ces

                      I’m actually working right now, so I’ll give Susan a bit to fish it out. That, and a second attempt is never the same.

                      But I’ll check back in later.

                    • ces

                      Ok, it made it through….

                      Thanks, Susan!

      • FLDemFem

        The Iraq war was illegal. The United States has laws against pre-emptive war. Bush lied about the Iraq/Al Queda connection. He fixed the intelligence reports to reflect what he wanted them to say, then he took them to Congress and lied through his teeth to get the authorization to use military force. He had the Iraq campaign planned before 9/11. In fact, he was discussing it with advisers before he even took the oath of office. And as for expanding the US sphere of influence, invasion and murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians isn’t the way to make people like the US. It may make us feared, but not influential. If you don’t want oil to be used as an economic weapon, then develop energy sources that don’t require it. If we had spent one tenth the money on doing that that was spent in Iraq, we wouldn’t have to worry about OPEC or anyone else.

        As the daughter of a diplomat, I have seen that helping people and providing the means for them to better their lives is a much more permanent way of influencing them than wholesale butchery. I remember when an American could walk into any small village in India or Pakistan and be greeted with smiles. It’s a pity that day is gone. That sort of influence did a lot more for us than bombs and bullets ever will.
        Oh, and one of the main reasons the US has been influential in the past is our economic power. Given the country is sliding into bankruptcy, thanks to Bush and Obummer, that won’t be a factor any more. And we won’t be able to maintain that military presence that seems to stiffen your little penis when we are broke, either. So any influence that came from the fear of it will be gone. I wonder how “brilliant” you will think the Iraq war was when you take the last few large boxes from your factory so you will have somewhere to live when it is owned by a non-American, having been taken from you and given to them to help pay the US debt to their country.

        • Seattle Moss

          The Iraq war was illegal. The United States has laws against pre-emptive war. Bush lied about the Iraq/Al Queda connection.

          Nobody will remember what’s right or wrong but who controls the game. after the fall of the Soviet Union the United States had a unique opportunity to change the power equation of the world and the middle east. Looking forward to a world of finite resources and a rise of Islamic fundamentalism the United States decided on a permanent beach head in Iraq.
          I know you don’t get it right now, but soon enough you will..
          It’s a cruel world and to to the victor go the spoils. Iraq is part of the American sphere of influence now to the dismay of the terrorists and the Iranians.
          I’m glad that we moved in and exert our influence in the area. Forever more America controls the agenda in the region.
          Now it you don’t want America to have power then you can clutch to legalities,but future conflicts will be decided by Americans and not Iranians or others.
          We control the destiny …Not them!

          • FLDemFem

            No occupied country can be said to be in a sphere of influence. A sphere of influence does not occur at the point of a gun. And as for control, we have very little control in Iraq. If we don’t get out when the Iraqis ask us to go, we will be what we have always deplored in other countries, fascist invaders. No better than the Nazis who tried to do the same thing in Russia, among other places. And there are some resources that are not finite, solar and wind power to name two. Others are sustainable, with care. You are like a two year old who wants what he wants NOW, no matter what the cost to others. To claim resources that do not belong to us is tantamount to piracy. Which makes us the same as the Somali pirates who are hijacking ships. They have no right to take those ships or the things and people on them, but they do anyway because they want to. If that is the way you want this country to behave then, please, move to Somalia where the standards of behavior are on a par with yours.

            • Seattle Moss

              please, move to Somalia where the standards of behavior are on a par with yours.

              Actually I think I will continue to invest in Iraq where freedom and Liberty are on the march.

              Thanks anyway…..

          • Ferd Berfle

            Bullshit. After the fall of the Soviet Union we saw the rise of terrorism, especially in the -stan countries, which no longer had a Soviet Union to deal with. Doesn’t it never occur to you pinheads that when a power such as the Soviet Union goes down, some sort of power has to take its place because of the vacuum that occurs when it is gone. No–you silly and truly dumbass neocons never thought of that simple truth at all. Oh, and thanks for making our world so much less safe. At least with the Soviets, we only had on adversary. Christ.

            Really. you must read your history and stop this “we’re right and They’re wrong” bullshit and that anything a Republican says must be the Gospel. I’m here to tell you it isn’t.

            • Docelder

              But Ferd, Russia is currently kicking our butts in capitalism. Meanwhile we seem to be embracing their old failed Marxist model. I was doing some research the other day. Russia has a flat tax rate for individuals of 13%. 13%. Think about that, and it is reported that since they cut their tax rate their revenues have gone up 50%. They have a variant of Reaganomics happening there in Russia… and we now have hopenchange. Go figure.

  • Seattle Moss

    It really doesn’t matter whether Cheney lied or not as most people who were suckered into supporting the Iraq war are now lying about their original support of the war.
    Last year the only one that didn’t speak was Cheney. The revisionists have been blindsided by his strategy now.
    Cheney came out and blew the revisionists right out of the water…I got to admit that it was fun to watch!
    Now let’s get on with saving the country so that in four years we don’t have a nationalist fascist republican takeover of the country.
    There is a force in this country that if you push the envelope far enough you will see the biggest backlash in history.

    • Doc99

      To which I politely reply: Palin – 2012!

      • Hg

        Palin or Pain–their choice. If not Palin or a facsimile thereof-then let the games begin.

        • Ladydawnelle

          forget Sarah

          not even the fools men on the right like her (only the neocons)

          I love her but her close ties with the neos bothers me bad! She’s a little too cozy with the Kristols (not that he’s like Cheney but his ideology is too similar) don’t cha think?

          Maybe TODD’s influence would keep her off the NEOcon band wagon long enough to secure some of the PUMA – maybe

          it would depend on the crowd she brings with her
          just like BAMBI’s South Side Crowd – I don’t trust em.

          • Hg

            Not Sarah in particular– but one with her character and intellect, be it female or male, so long as it is an AMERICAN with AMERICA in mind.

            • Ladydawnelle

              ahhh ok yes I agree

              after all this IS America (last I looked)

              Last I checked Merkel (being German) seems to care a LOT about taking care of Germany (with little apology)

              same for Sarkozy (born in france I assume to FRENCH parents? NON? OUI? MON DIEU!!)

              even that smart arse from South America was BORN there right? Why r we trying so hard to distance ourselves from our OWN country? What we did hundreds of years ago has very little relevance today. Or should have. (Israel take note)

              Didn’t EVERY country at one time get taken over or consumed by another stronger people? IT’s what MEN do. And some CRAZY women. STEAL.

              ok not all – I’m being a general cynic

              • Hg

                Well, it is a historical fact that every nation that has EVER BEEN ON TOP has FALLEN. BUT GAWD, we have been on top for the least amount of time [historically speaking]. Some [historians] seem to think that the Roman Empire imploded under its own weight(size), hence they were never conquered but rather ABSORBED their enemies that overthrew the Emperors. In short the Barbarians for example simply continued the programs instituted by the former Emperors whom they replaced. ;) . Yeah. me too. I am a cynic also. I refuse to be an old person at the age of—– Yep you guessed it. LOL! I care for America, But I care for myself first and foremost and I enjoy freedom and detest those who would challenge it. That is why I carried an M1 in the Marine Corps–:). Will Obama continue on with democracy? I doubt it.

                • oowawa

                  That is why I carried an M1 in the Marine Corps

                  A pre M-14 Marine–the Old Corps indeed! I salute you sir–Semper Fi!

                  • Hg

                    Semper Fi indeed! Semper Fidelis is another matter–ALWAYS FAITHFUL– semper fi? LOL! In the old corps as you call it, semper fi (the short version) means F— you. I always get a good laugh when I see “semper fi” . Nothing nasty meant by the explano! :) . Actually semper fi meant ” I got what I want, get yours the best way you can”. You had to be there to understand. It was a good experience and a some sad memories.

                    • oowawa

                      LOL Hg–I’m a Vietnam era ex-Marine, and I never once heard that explanation of “Semper Fi” (the short version). We always used it, and still do, as an expression of respect, and that’s the way I meant it. Thanks for the surprising bit of Corps history!

                    • Hg

                      Excuse me— A salute right back at you.

              • oowawa

                Why r we trying so hard to distance ourselves from our OWN country?

                Ladydawnelle, sometimes it sure seems that way. The Hummer was a big pig vehicle, but it was at least OUR big pig vehicle. Now Hummer was sold to a Chinese company, and it’s going to be a Chinese big pig vehicle. What’s next? Perhaps Government Motors will sell Corvette to the Chinese, where it will be renamed the Red Star Roadster for import to the USA, and everybody will cheer! Maybe this doesn’t directly relate to your perceptive comment, but somehow I feel these items are connected. I’m starting to feel like a stranger in my own country.

            • http://noquarter foxyladi14

              here here.thats what we need.

          • Docelder

            Hatred of Bush gave us Obama. I don’t see that hate going away. We are stuck with him indefinitely.

            • Ladydawnelle

              omg that’s the damn truth

            • NomNomNom

              imo bush’s backers–the “defense” contractors and financial sector gave us BHO. voting didn’t seem to have much to do with it. I’m sure they’ll give us someone else when they’re done with BHO. Palin or Jeb maybe.

    • Docelder

      biggest backlash in history.

      Yes Seattle, and folks like you and I are going to look like the liberals when that happens I am afraid.

    • Ferd Berfle

      Cheney came out and blew the revisionists right out of the water…I got to admit that it was fun to watch!

      Your ability to accept the truly preposterous is mind-numbing. Cheney wouldn’t know the truth it it was tattooed to his gay daughter’s forehead. The only thing Cheney did was lie through his false teeth.

      I’m done. You win, Seattle. You are your own worst enemy, no friend of America, and will suffer for it. Cheney is a coward, un-American, and a worthless piece of shit.

      • Seattle Moss

        Coming from you…
        That’s a compliment bitter old man…

  • Kim

    I just wish Cheney would crawl back under his rock and stay there for good.

    • NomNomNom

      I wish it would fall on his head.

  • Ivory Bill Woodpecker

    Off-topic: The state of Georgia is still trying to execute a man whose guilt is dubious at best.

    http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=jhKPIXPCIoE&b=2590179&aid=12361&ICID=D0906A01&tr=y&auid=4922153

    • Hg

      WTF? I thought you was extint, Ivory Bill!

  • Tricia Spiegel

    Cheney lied. He said whatever he needed to say to get what he wanted. That he uses little wiggle-wrods here and there does not change anything.

  • trish

    It’s time to move on to something more important. Cheney isn’t worth the effort of hunting for something to write about.

    Obama is ruining the country as we sit here and read about Cheney…enough!

    • Yeah Right

      Good point, Trish!! I agree with you——

    • politicalidentitycrisis

      I also agree with you and none of the Bush Cheney stuff matters. We’re in Iraq and the time to oppose that (as many did) was before going in. Now we’re in it and we all have to just support the troops and make sure we act responsibly when getting out.

      What I’d really like to see is everyone keep your eye on the ball. Watch the Obama administration, like a hawk. The f-ing around about Cheney only takes the focus off of what destruction the Obama administration is doing. All that will do is put us in hindsight mode, yet again. If the democrats chose in 2006 to “take impeachment off the table”, which they did, then it is irrelevant. That means neither the dem nor the Republicans will pursure it and no one here has the power to do so. What we can do is stop making this mistake. Hold the current administration accountable for everything they do. They work for us, remember?

      I’m getting a little concerned, Larry. I certainly hope that you are not trying to distract us here from something Obama is doing that you agree with that is shady. Let’s shine the spotlight on the one in office at the current time, now and forever after.

      BTW, I could not help but find it ironic that Cheney supports gay marriage. My ex boyfriend told me I was a gay hater for supporting Obama because his daughter is gay and he believed McCain/Palin hate gays. I pointed out to him, even after the Palin/Biden debate, that the two candidates held the excat same view on Gay’s rights/marriage. Ha, now to have Cheney support Gay marriage? Even Obama doesn’t do that. I hope my ex bf heard about that, but I am leaving it in the past anyway.

      We need to focus on the present and the future and drop the nastiness of the past. After all, isn’t it similar to why we had to have the black guy? To make up for the past, right? Let us never make stupid mistakes like that ever again.

      • ziggy

        Someone very wise once said, “Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.”

        It helps to know what actually occurred in the first place. With Bush/Cheney, the picture of our immediate past still hasn’t come into clear and detailed focus and Cheney seems to be determined to distort it before it gets into the history books. I think he’s hoping for a repetition in the very near future.

        • politicalidentitycrisis

          I didn’t say I’d forget the past now did I? What I said actually helps us not make the same mistake again! Look at what is happening now. you cannot change the past, but you can learn from it! What I learned is that too much power in the wrong hands is very dangerous. Therefore, I will follow the dems advice and take the Bush administration off the table and watch WTF they are doing with this massive power grab. Obama wants everyone to focus on Bush so you don’t see what he is doing until it’s too late. It is almost too late already, but it is way past too late to think we can change Bush/Cheney!

          Larry, don’t fall for Obama tricks. Too many did that last year and well, here we are, about to go over the cliff!

          • Just Me

            politicalidentitycrisis said:

            “What I learned is that too much power in the wrong hands is very dangerous. Therefore, I will follow the dems advice and take the Bush administration off the table and watch WTF they are doing with this massive power grab. Obama wants everyone to focus on Bush so you don’t see what he is doing until it’s too late. It is almost too late already…”

            All I can add is an Amen!

    • http://! stodgie

      thanks trish. keept that thought! smile!

    • Zoom

      We wouldn’t be reading about Cheney if he were not popping up everyday on the teevee, in every network, busy trying to save his ass.
      If he had retired to his undisclosed location to watch the torture tapes by the fire we wouldn’t be talking about him, it’s his choice to keep coming back like a zombie.
      So try telling HIM it is time to move on…

    • NomNomNom

      all of these war criminals need to be put on trial. suggesting that I want Cheney punished in no way indicates approval of BHO, or lack of interest in pursuing whatever criminal charges may be appropriate for him. There is not a statute of limitations on war crimes. This is not an either or proposition.

  • JRD

    You can`t always get what you want,
    You can`t always get what you want,
    But if you try some time,
    You just might find,
    You get what you need.

    What I did like that Cheney said yesterday was that freedom is for everybody and that he supports gay marriage but, the decision rests with the states!

    You get what you need!

    Cheney`s daughter Mary and her partner have a 3 year old named Sam.

    • http://noquarter foxyladi14

      and better yet.Sam is not adopted.Mary carried and gave birth to him..

  • marktarheel

    cheney is clearly not lying……..I have watched it 3 times……….sorry but that dog dont hunt….

    • Ferd Berfle

      .sorry but that dog dont hunt….

      Apparently you don’t hunt either as you are about as stupid a southerner as i’ve ever met, troll. You should change you moniker to markshithead.

  • Doc99

    A reasonable man might conclude that the surest way to get Mr. Johnson’s goat is to whisper the name, “Dick Cheney.” Surely, Cheney is Johnson’s white whale.

    • viking

      Doc, you’re hilarious!

    • http://! stodgie

      doc, your humor is appreciated.

  • viking

    I watched the clips. Its clear that Cheney says “the Czechs have reported…”

    Close but no. This is not impeachment. We’ll see from other comments if it stands as a successful smear though.

    oh, and I’m prepared for “smackdown” LJ.

    • TeakWoodKite

      Captain Ahab: Speak not to me of blasphemy, man; I’d strike the sun if it insulted me. Look ye, Starbuck, all visible objects are but as pasteboard masks. Some inscrutable yet reasoning thing puts forth the molding of their features. The white whale tasks me; he heaps me. Yet he is but a mask. ‘Tis the thing behind the mask I chiefly hate; the malignant thing that has plagued mankind since time began; the thing that maws and mutilates our race, not killing us outright but letting us live on, with half a heart and half a lung.

      from the op-ed. Clark was there.

      …for months, top officials had ignored warnings from the CIA and the NSC staff that urgent action was needed to preempt a major al-Qaeda attack.

      Yes, Dick Cheney and Condoleezza Rice may have been surprised by the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 — but it was because they had not listened

      .

      • viking

        You want credit for referencing Moby Dick too? I don’t get it but okay.

        • TeakWoodKite

          I wish no credit for anything of this world.

          Captain Ahab speaks to why I would not.

        • Ferd Berfle

          You don’t get it, primarily because you are bereft of intelligence. Why do you post here, stupid?

          • Seattle Moss

            I can see why you can’t retire and have to work till the day you drop.

            Not to good with that prediction stuff are you…
            If you were good at something besides ranting on people you wouldn’t be here night and day making a fool of yourself to everyone.

            I can count 10 people that believe that you’re not working with a full deck…

            Your bitterness sure is stinking up the place!

            • Animal Control

              If you were good at something besides ranting on people you wouldn’t be here night and day making a fool of yourself to everyone.

              Ah, so you do look in the mirror.

              • Seattle Moss

                Hey Sloth,
                Since Sloths like you have the smallest brains and you have shown nothing but unhinged hate towards me probably because you have no animal skin in the game..

                So Animal Control you are really just a sack of shit! You know nothing really and everybody laughs as you cruise around in the barn and every fellow animal is pissing in your stall, you’ve been absolutely nowhere. You’re more pathetic than Mr Ed on the Spot. Have another drink from pig trough you ignoramus!

                Mirror back at you sloth!

                • Animal Control

                  Like I care what any cretin thinks–oh sorry didn’t realize you can’t think cause you’ve got shit for brains. Why don’t you tell us all again how you walk down the street and everyone is afraid of you. You poor excuse for a human.

                  • Seattle Moss

                    Maybe your just a wildc animal…

                    One thing is for sure sloth,

                    You ain’t got much of a come back do you.
                    You certainly didn’t read my post correctly as you manipulated it for your own ends just like your politics.
                    You have zero credibility!
                    I haven’t ever read a post that’s not full of shit from you…

                    Go away sloth!

                  • Seattle Moss

                    Considering you didn’t read my post and the analogy I was making about my life twenty years ago and considering the only posts I have read of yours are juvenile attacks on people
                    I will consider everything you say as a compliment…Thank you!

                    I hope you start feeling a bit better about your lousy life soon.
                    I know that the visits to the Wild Sloth exhibit are down some, but don’t fret maybe some productive types might walk by and throw you some peanuts soon.

  • marktarheel

    the bush-cheney bashing is getting old…..the idea of iraqi and al-qaeda agents having meetings is firmly established in the 9-11 comm report…..The report says “no evidence of cooperation, in 9-11 attacks…but that their was indeed contacts…..I am comfortable saying that any link is one to many….thank you mr bush and cheney for keeping america safe since 9-11…and if you want the truth……the killing of the soldier outside the recruiting office yesterday is the first terror killing on american soil since 9-11…..nice going obama……the terrorist trained in yemen……obama owns this one….not dick cheney……sorry idf the truth hurts…

    • Nellie

      Marktarheel,

      Do you EVER get past ideology and use critical thinking skills? And it is not just you personally, but a whole group here. Check out Rev Amy’s post below on the killing of the two young soldiers shot at in Little Rock Arkansas.

      The first thing a whole bunch of people jumped on was that Obama spoke out within hours when the abortion Doctor was killed but says not a word about the soldiers.

      I fully agree that the Useless 0Zero is dead wrong in not saying anything about the soldiers. His silence speaks volumes about the total emptiness of his leadership and personal abilities.

      However, have ANY of you even thought that perhaps the Black Muslim who assassinated one soldier and wounded another, did so as a result of the DOJ and Eric Holder droping the charges against the Black Panthers who intimidated voters in Philadelphia? And that it was NOT a result of the abortion divide? Perhaps that fully armed one man platoon now thinks he too will get off lightly like the Black Panthers based strictly on skin color?

      Most of the comments I read reflexively jump on the Ideological stuff and never even take time to link events or do some analysis. Does it not seem strange to you that the Black Muslim’s father refuses to speak and refers all questions to the police department? Is it because the father has given up on his son, or is it because someone “got to him” and told him to keep his mouth shut?

      Larry’s post stems from Dick Cheney once again lying through his teeth in a TV recent interview. His daughter Liz already acknowledged that Cheney is doing so because he fears prosecution for war crimes.

      My view just happens to coincide with Larry’s because I had 2 relatives who were tortured during WWII and I grew up in a town with several Jewish camp victims. Seeing the results of the deep scars to their souls and psyches, I came to the conclusion long ago that the monsters who perpetrate these atrocities are much worse than rabid wounded beasts in the wild. So I am fully in agreement that prosecution and justice be based on the actions of each individual regardless of politics, party or any other artificial grouping. These monsters are bestial, and the world would be a better place without hearing or acknowledging them in any manner IMHO.

      Larry is NOT bashing – he is informing. Cheney was the one with the perverted blood lust during the Bush years. However, according to Nuremberg standards, Pelosi Jay Rockerfeller, Yoo and and others also deserve prosecution as accomplices/collaborators in regards to these atrocities.

      WHY oh why does everything denigrate to some kind of left/right ideological divide? Why don’t people use their brains and awareness and connect things? It would make discussions a lot more interesting, if people could just get past ideological talking points.

      I am neither Democrat nor Republican. As of June 1st 2008, I am a proud Independent who will carefully review each INDIVIDUAL based on merit, not ideology.

      Seldom do I comment, because lately we seem to have gone back to the talking point era of 2006. As a professor, Larry Johnson is one of the most factual, patient and best Teachers I have ever known. The few times his language becomes “colorful” I am already at the point of walking out and slamming the door.

      For those of you who are wedged firmly in your ideology, would you please allow space for the rest of us to explore possibilities that transcend trite, old and boring ideological talking points?

      • Ladydawnelle

        Puma W00T!!

      • marktarheel

        im just stating facts…….it isnt partisan…..bush-cheney DID keep this country safe….and if you think the muslim killed those soldiers because he thought obama would go easy on him……..Ive got a bridge to sell you…real cheap……nothing in my post was left or right……it was straight down the middle….and in the middle….we recognize and appreciate the efforts bush and cheney took to keep my kids safe…..how non-partisan do I have to be?.jeeeeez

        • TeakWoodKite

          bush-cheney DID keep this country safe

          You have more string than me and I am a kite.

          You feeeeeeel safe? Bush and Cheney did not “keep us safe”. 9/11 occured on thier watch, they sent our blood and treasure to Iraq on false pretense, tortured people, rendered people and you think this keeps us safe?

          On top of which Bush and Cheney flat out lied to your face. Is that what you tell your children keeps them safe? The reason the bridge is cheap is because of Bush.

          I taught mine to watch out for your type of BS and to QUESTION EVERYTHING they are told or hear.

          Whats with the dots anyway? I know, maybe they are the droppings of your game of “whack a mole”?

          • Seattle Moss

            Teak,
            Have you ever lived on the bad side of town. When I first moved to Seattle twenty years ago I was penniless with just my car and education to help me.
            Today I’m a survivor and self made man.
            Why…
            Because, when bad people threatened me I acted meaner than them and scared the heck out of them.
            I developed a reputation as somebody you don’t mess with.
            People only respect the strong and those that are cunning and sometimes don’t play by the books.

            I’ve never stepped on anybody getting to the top and to many people I’m just a big cuddly bear, but there is not a street in this town where I can’t walk in confidence and wherever I go people respect me.

            Thank you Cheney
            You changed the Carter dynamic and showed the enemy how the game of hard ball is really played.

            • TeakWoodKite

              Yes Seattle, I have lived in some VERY nasty places. Nothing like hearing guns going off every night while you try to sleep or having to disarm some clown(s) on a subway or on the streetmore times than I care to live NYC.(this being nothing compared to our brothers and sisters in arms)

              And while you have “acted meaner” and used what advantages were available to you in the mean streets, I admire your grit. I grew up in the middle of race riots and Bada Bing violence.

              I would simply disagree that Cheney did anything but get people killed under false pretense and has no honor. Do NOT misunderstand me. Bushido Code.

              I respect you and the reason for that has nothing to do with an overt physical presence. As someone said “size matters not”.

              It is my sense that even though we disagree on some subjects at the end of the day what matters is the security of this nation and her Constitution that we find common cause in.

              • Seattle Moss

                It is my sense that even though we disagree on some subjects at the end of the day what matters is the security of this nation and her Constitution that we find common cause in.

                Teak..You are a Patriot front and center!

                I salute you!

                • Just Me

                  Teak and Moss:

                  An excellent exchange! Hats off to both of you.

                  I too have lived in dangerous times and situations. Shot once, had four cars “shot up”, with me inside 3 of the 4, during civil rights struggles of 60s and 70s.

                  Each episode made me more fearless and more determined. Inever failed at anything I set out to do, except passage of the ERA. That still haunts me as a failure.

                  I say all of this to point out the agreement, with both of you, that most of us on this site may approach things from different perspectives, may often disagree, but most likely share some commonality which affords understanding and civility.

                  Again thanks to each of you for making that extremely clear.

                  • TeakWoodKite

                    Shot once…and lived to tell.

                    Go in peace JustMe.

          • marktarheel

            teak take off your blinders and join the real world.. you claim 9-11 happened on their watch…ok fine. by your logic, bill clinton was responsible for the embassy bombings and the first wtc attack and the cole bombing right? and lets not forget that clinton had a chance to kill usama bin laden but he didnt….Im not gonna second guess clinton…but in your hatred of bush, you happily try to place blame. you are the partisan. not I

            • TeakWoodKite

              marktarheel,
              lets not forget that clinton had a chance to kill usama bin laden but he didnt.

              The fact remains that GW wanted him “dead or alive” and then “I don’t think about it much” …

              President Clinton wanted him dead on a consistant basis. Can’t say that about GW. And the reference to UBL with a party of falconeers is amusing since you are hawking the same arguement Mikey was pushing on “Bad Morning America.”

              (Note to LJ, Why do people use this arguement?)

            • Ferd Berfle

              bill clinton was responsible for the embassy bombings and the first wtc attack and the cole bombing right?

              How stupid are you? Bill Clinton could not be responsible as he was not a party to it. Are you insane? You could just as easily say that your boy Shrub was responsible for 9/11. Are you, dumbass, willing to say that?

              Didn’t think so.

    • Desert Diva

      McCain Lost
      Obama won
      get over it!

      • TeakWoodKite

        Drinkin Cactus juice eh?

    • Ferd Berfle

      There is no connection between Iraq and 9/11, toothless one. When will you get it?

  • tminu

    “There was evidence early on that Muhammad Atta had met with Senior Iraqi intelligence officials, but that was never born out”