Current Article

For Al Qaeda, the implication is clear.

By NewHampster on May 19, 2008 at 8:53 PM in Al Qaeda, Barack Obama, Muslim

Barack Obama – Muslim apostate?

For Al Qaeda, the answer – and the implication – is clear.

By Shireen K. Burki
from the May 19, 2008 edition of The Christian Science Monitor

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0519/p09s02-coop.html

Stafford, Va. – Osama bin Laden must be chuckling in his safe house. After all, the 2008 campaign could very well give Al Qaeda the ultimate propaganda tool: President Barack Hussein Obama, Muslim apostate.

I'm not a religious person and I could care less if Obama is an atheist but I wondered what this Apostate thing is. Sometimes understanding the words helps one to understand the meaning of an Op-Ed.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apostate

a·pos·tate   [uh-pos-teyt] –noun
1.    a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.
–adjective
2.    of or characterized by apostasy.

So, the writer is speaking about Obama abandoning his religion.

The fact that Senator Obama – the son of a Muslim father – insists he was never a Muslim before becoming Christian is irrelevant to bin Laden. In bin Laden's eyes, Obama is a murtad fitri, the worst type of apostate, because he was blessed by Allah to be born into the true faith of Islam.

There are two types of apostates according to sharia (Islamic law) and the Hadith (sayings of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him).

The first type is murtad milli, one who converted to Islam and later renounced the faith. The second, and most egregious, type is murtad fitri. It refers to a person born of a Muslim father who renounces his birthright. Two recent examples of the latter are Magdi Allam (a male Egyptian who converted to Catholicism in Italy) and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (Somali-born woman who's now an atheist). Both now face death threats.

According to Islamic jurisprudence, children of a Muslim father – even an apparently nonpracticing one, such as Obama's father, and irrespective of the mother's faith – are automatically Muslims. Most Muslims around the world agree: A child of a Muslim father is a Muslim. Period.

What is Obama afraid of? Why does he deny his heritage and the heritage of his father? Is he simply embarassed to be called a Muslim? Is it perhaps for political reasons?

I myself am called a Jew. I was raised in Jewish traditions, but I consider myself an atheist. I have not practiced the religion in over thirty years but you know what? I'm still a Jew.

Jewish Talmudic Law says if your mother is Jewish then you are. Do or say whatever you want, you are still a Jew. That is how Islam looks upon those born to a Muslim father.

Apostasy according to Wkipedia:

In Islam, apostasy is called “ridda” (“turning back”) and is considered to be a profound insult to God. A person born of Muslim parents that rejects Islam is called a “murtad fitri” (natural apostate), and a person that converted to Islam and later rejects the religion is called a “murtad milli” (apostate from the community).

The appropriate penalty for apostasy in Islam (i.e. in the Qur'an or under shariah law) is a highly controversial topic that is passionately debated by various scholars. The Quran itself speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but is silent on the appropriate punishment. In practice, however, Islam has enforced harsh penalties against apostasy for hundreds of years.

According to most scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time given to him/her by a judge for research, then the penalty for male apostates is death, and for women, life imprisonment. However, this view has been rejected by a small minority of modern Muslim scholars (eg Hasan al-Turabi), who argues that the hadith in question should be taken to apply only to political betrayal of the Muslim community, rather than to apostasy in general.[10] These scholars regard apostasy as a serious crime, but argue for the freedom to convert to and from Islam without legal penalty, and consider the aforementioned Hadith quote as insufficient justification for capital punishment. Today apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania and the Comoros. In Qatar apostasy is a capital offense, but no executions have been reported for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy

This opinion piece was printed in the pages of one of our most respected newspapers, The Christian Science Monitor. The piece I'm quoting is not from some freeper site or a trash paper.

The opinion piece should be read in its entirety as the argument Burki makes is quite compelling.

Shireen K. Burki is an adjunct professor of political science at the University of Mary Washington, in Fredericksburg, Va. The daughter of a Muslim father and a Christian mother, she spent her childhood in Islamabad, Pakistan, where she studied Islam at school.

hillarysmygirl

But this is the best part of the article:

Should Obama become US commander in chief, there is a strong likelihood that Al Qaeda’s media arm, As-Sahab, will exploit his background to argue that an apostate is leading the global war on terror (read: attacks against fellow Muslims). This perception would be leveraged to galvanize sympathizers into action.

Al Qaeda, though, has struggled recently to recruit volunteers for this jihad.

But an apostate as head of the United States could change this equation. It would be a propaganda boost for Al Qaeda’s mission.

That’s why Obama is bin Laden’s dream candidate.

Once branded as an apostate, President Obama would face enormous difficulties in the foreign policy realm, especially in the fight against terrorism.

Yet another reason Hillary is our only hope!

hillarysmygirl

Sorry, Hampster, forgot to thank you for the great post!

http://hillarysbloggers.soapblox.net NewHampster

ur welcome and thank you for the comment

Shainzona

Hey, send a copy of this to John Kerry – you know, he who believes Barack Obama has a special connection to the Middle East and will cure all of our ills there?

I. Don’t. Think. So!!!

BernieO

You hit on the real issue here – that naive men like Kerry think Obama will magically heal the divide with Muslims and therefore use it as one reason to support his candidacy. That being said, how Bin Laden reacts to our nominee should not be a factor in our choice of nominee. After all fundamentalist Muslims would also freak at the idea of a woman in power (as a lot of fundamentalist Christians also do) and Bin Laden would surely a female candidate as a reason to fire up his supporters.

workingclass artist

Bin Laden is Sunni….His argument with the Saudis is fundamentalist political…it is not theological except where Saudi political relationship with the West…If given the chance Bin Laden would gladly OBLITERATE every single Shia in his path…The Schism is old and erupts in violence between the factions…ANY ALLIANCE BETWEEN SHIA AND SUNNI IS TEMPORARY AND UNEASY….IN THE PAST WE HAVE EXPLOITED IT AS WELL AS SOUGHT TO INTERVENE…
IRAN IS A SHIA NATION….IT IS SURROUNDED BY SUNNI NATIONS.

Taters

Ya did good, Hamp. Real good.
workingclass artist

New Hampster….a thought provoking article….However I do think that it is perhaps too general in that there is no consideration of Sunni and Shia and the politial as well as theological differences between the two….This is a common mistake…Lumping all the Muslims together is a fallacy akin to lumping all the Christian Denominations together.
SUNNIS DO NOT RECOGNIZE SHARIA LAW….IT IS SHIA…
SHIAS CONSIDER SUNNIS TO BE HERETICS….IN ERROR…

Dawnelle

I was JUST asking that question earlier today on this very blog.

I’m glad you are bringing it to the fore.

Good to see New Hampster again as well!

Sad – that BO will be branded by followers of a father he never knew as DEAD to THEM.

That is a very sad thing to grow up knowing. And BO is not stupid. He knows this too.

WTF are they thinking running this poor guy – like dangling raw meat in front of a Tiger. He must have some sick death wish or something.

CRAZY!!
workingclass artist

SUNNIS do not Recognize SHARIA LAW…Bin Laden is SUNNI…
IRAN IS A SHIA NATION SURROUNDED BY SUNNI NATIONS…BIG DIFF…
SUNNI HAVE NO THEOCRATIC AYATOLLAHS….SAUDI ARABIA IS SUNNI
Sadam Hussien ( Iraq ) attacked Iran ( Shia ) and this was both a war over geography and ideaology…Each faction of Islam considers the other to be HERETIC….IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY…THEY WOULD GLADLY OBLITERATE EACH OTHER….IN MOST ISLAMIC STATES EACH LIVES IN SEGREGATED ISOLATION AND UNEASY COHABITATION….OFTEN THIS ERUPTS IN VIOLENCE AS IT HAS FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE SCHISM….

florence

Please don’t put things in all caps. It’s difficult to read. The eyes love white spaces.

Centrocitta

If his keyboard gives him an ALL CAPS option, he has the right to take that option. By the way, are you still paying his bills?

workingclass artist

New Hampster..I think it would be great if you applied your excellent analysis in more depth as to the political ramificaions of Sunni and Shia….
The main reason we have the geo-political relations we do with say Saudi Arabia is because it is Sunni….It is a Sunni Monarchy which traditionally has been more flexible with dealings with the West…It is not a theocracy like Iran….When Iran was a monarchy things were different…I will look forward to more posts on this issue as I agree that it is important…Good Job

** Bin Laden is a traditional Sunni at war with his government Saudi Arabia and he as declared Jihad against the West who he believes has corrupted Saudi Arabia….But he is not Shia…it is an uneasy alliance in Al Queda **

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com TexasDarlin

Hampster, thanks for the analysis of that CSM piece.

I wrote in a post a while back that Obama was not being truthful about his religious background. There’s nothing wrong with being muslim, and it’s unfortunate for all of the peaceful muslim Americans that the word has turned into a smear. But Obama lying about it is the problem.

Here’s my post: http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/mystery-man-obama/
http://www.12counts.com tam

I started thinking about this months ago. With all the talks of him being better able to deal with the Muslim world, I immediately thought that wouldn’t be the case because his father is Muslim but he is not. This would be a HUGE problem for some of the Muslim world, and certainly the radical sects.
Manu

If people think that Obama has shed his Muslim roots, they’re deluding themselves. His church’s tie to Muslims (e.g., Farrakhan) is well known and well documented. This guy is Christian in name only, but underneath, his soul is wrapped in a turban.

http://hillarysbloggers.soapblox.net NewHampster

I could care less what he is. I don’t like that he’s a hypocrite, that the first person he threw under the bus was his own dad and that this will make him a horrible liability in dealing with the Muslim world.
cc

I agree 100 percent
Ash McGonigal

You’re an idiot. For many reasons, but one of them is that Muslims don’t wear turbans. And yet here you are, trying to sound like you know a crap, spouting the same Muslim and Louis Farrakhan nonsense as the right wing, and then suggesting that in addition to being a fake Christian and closeted Muslim, he is also a Sikh.

You know what? In eight months he’ll also be the leader of the free world, and then it won’t matter whether he’s a Christian, a Muslim, a Sikh, or an atheist. He’ll be Mr. President, and anyone who gives a damn what al Qaeda thinks about this needs to breathe into a bag.

oy

oh snap!
pm317

Wow! what ignorance? How old are you?
http://hyper-educated-uppity-woman.blogspot.com Uppity Woman

Barack Obama will not be President.

http://deleted AnninCA

I read this article this morning. Excellent piece, although I wasn’t sure just it would affect matters.

But food for thought.

http://hillarysbloggers.soapblox.net NewHampster

Makes me wonder why nobody in the media cares

Tom Plumb

They’re bought and paid for, you can’t expect an honest original thought behind all that apathetic self hate.

When was the last time they actually had to WORK?
http://hyper-educated-uppity-woman.blogspot.com Uppity Woman

They are basting him for the Roast.

BBB

Are we trying different ways to perpetuate “Obama is a Muslim” now?

This is stooping pretty low.
BBB

I mean, come on – even the GOP in the Deep South hasn’t been sinking to THIS depth.
Sj

Why have we never seen a copy or Obama’s birth certificate, it would be interesting to see what is stated on there. We saw so many bits of Bush documents during that election, I think its time someone start to look at some of this stuff and see if there is anything in there.
hunkerdown

But if you mention BO’s muslim problem over a taylormarsh, you get censored and reprimanded…..

Whether Obama is Christian or Muslim is irrelevent. Who really cares what religion he adopts? Not me. It is totally his choice and it does not sway my vote one way or the other.
MD4Hill | 05.19.2008 – 5:09 pm | #

So seven years after 9/11 we elect a muslim president to show solidarity?????

http://hillarysbloggers.soapblox.net NewHampster

This diary is not about whether he is or isn’t. It is about the Muslim world’s perception of him as a Muslim who abandoned the faith.

Please read the diary and the referenced article.

jwrjr

Exactly. By Sharia, Obama is, by definition either Muslim or murtad fitri. Since he denies being Muslim, that only leaves one alternative. What we think is irrelevant to the Muslim world. Can you say “jihad”?

workingclass artist

I think the question should be framed as to whether Obamas father was Sunni or Shia…If Sunni then the Sharia law is irrelevant…
If Shia then well that is another story….

Martin

NH, all of this is relevant to this election. Thank you.

Since questions will not be answered by Obama, he must be defeated in order to avoid the national security implications of his identity.

IndyBoomer

I’ve been reading and enjoying this blog for months, and am finally posting. Got tired of the hand-slaps and reprimands over at Taylor Marsh–not directed at me personally, but whenever a particularly juicy topic got going, Taylor appeared and put a stop to it. It’s her site, but she sure does limit free speech sometimes. Feels better here (except for a few persistent trolls).

Re: this Muslim issue with Obama..is there no end to the controversy with this man?
Northwest rain

There are some PC trolls over at TM who seem to have dominated. You can’t call Mrs. Obama names.

Oh well what do you expect of TM who says she will vote for Obama — if the worst happens.

Not everyone is as strong and as outspoken as Gerry Ferraro who won’t vote for Obama — if Dean and Donna (traitors) prevail.
Tom Plumb

It is also about the Muslim’s world attitude toward Israel.

Remember this includes Farrakhan, and Ondiga, Qaddafi, and Hamas, also Central America, and those who have an oil interest in the middle east, and Africa.

How do they feel about Israel?

http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/ Gloria

This is a very informative article, especially in light of how much we have heard about the “face” Obama will present to the world…

Maybe he’ll present a “target” instead….

It’s just another complication to deal with…
LA Confidential Pantload

Juan Cole has a good post on this on his blog. IIRC, if a person leaves the faith prior to adulthood, he/she is not considered an apostate. Of course, Bin Laden isn’t exactly a mainstream Muslim, so who knows what his take on it is.

Dawnelle

whew!

http://OTliesvideo Lyn

didn’t Obama say Wright brought him to Jesus AFTER he graduated from college I might add, that is an adult

http://www.danaseilhan.com Dana

OK, that reconciles the conflict I saw between Islam being voluntary (again, taking Shahada is one of the five pillars of the faith!) and it being passed down to a Muslim man’s children. It would be nice if Miss So-And-So had bothered sharing this with the class, but I guess this is part of the right wing’s latest flip-flop. If he won’t admit to being Muslim, he MUST be an apostate. Yawn.

I propose the Democrats run an atheist next, then a Pagan after that. Why don’t we just get all these disfavored religions out of the way in the next half-century so America can stop having frigging hissy fits about them. I mean, the Dems have already run the Catholic and the Jew, even though the Jew would obviously rather be a Republican. Why not continue the trend? I could use the entertainment. More howling than at Yellowstone on a full moon.
rwc

The problem is we don’t know when he renounced Islam. IMS he didn’t renounce until her joined Trinity, which makes him a adult.

If thats the case, the guy is fatwa material for every Salafist mullah around.

Add to it the fact that he recited the call to prayer which includes the Shahada(which is the Muslim affirmation of faith) in front of Nick Kristoff during a interview and stated that the Muslim call to prayer is the most beautiful sound he ever heard. then factor in that Trinity accepts devout Muslims as worshipers and practices Black Separatism disguised as Christianity.

Its fair to say we don’t really know what Barky is. We have to take his word and thats not worth much.

workingclass artist

Agree this is cause for concern especially in foreign policy…
The one thread that ties all this together in the case of Obama manifests thus…
Black Liberation Theology is Marxist/Fascism wrapped in the Baby Jesus.
Fascism is traditionally both racist and totalitarian…
Marxcism promotes class warfare and the overthrow of traditional social structures in favor of the Collective/State Authoritarian Super Structure
Islam Theocracy is the antithesis to democratic republican societies…
Both Islam and Black Liberation Theology have strong ideological anti-semitic/anti-zionist strains that tend to identify both politically an racially…

Ga6thDem

Yes, but he didn’t leave the faith prior to adulthood. He left it at 28. He may have been nonpracticing for years prior but he was still considered a muslim.

http://Supergram.blogspot.com Melissa

Hi NH- yet another great article! This whole push to get the Precious elected just gets curiouser and curiouser!
Is there some cabal trying to bring about Armageddon??? What the F***?
Obama has pissed off mass numbers of voters- women, white people, clingers to guns and religion who are bitter, garlic noses, my apologies to anybody I forgot- the list gets longer by the minute.
His denial of his Muslim heritage is not going to make the radical jihadists very happy so we add one mroe group of pissed off people. But with the cold call center in Gaza, maybe they know something we don’t?
http://www.hillaryclinton.com President Hillary Clinton will defeat Obama and his troll army!

These links will give you the heads up as to what is coming. Have a barf bag ready when you read what the Obama campaign is up to. No big surprises though.

Clinton camp warns Obama against victory lap

Obama Expected to Hit Milestone in Tuesday’s Votes
Sj

I am sick of it so I don’t know why he did not just go ahead with his plan and declare his self the winner, the media is going to say he is anyway so what is the big deal with it now.

I hope Dean and the gang took sometime to watch FOX tonight so they would see what is in store for the one, it was just a preview of things to come, but who care anyway seems as if America has gone mad, and the democrats really did not want the WH after all.

Tom Plumb

It was a psy ops move to add pressure to Clinton, IMO it backfired, making Obama look out of touch with reality, like Cheney.

http://humorhasit.blogspot.com Shez

I’d like to know why I didn’t find out until today that Obama met privately ~~secretly~~ with the Dearborn Imam Hassan Qazwini last Wednesday when he decided to arrogantly step foot here in Michigan. From the Detroit Free Press online: (We checked our metro DFP newspapers here at home, no sign of this article or pic in it. h/t to rezkowatch)

Local Muslim leader met privately with Obama
[..] Imam Hassan Qazwini, head of the Islamic Center of America, said in an email that he met with Obama at Macomb Community College. A mosque spokesman, Eide Alawan, confirmed that the meeting took place. During the meeting, the two discussed the Presidential election, the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the Iraq war, according to Qazwini.

At the end of the meeting, Qazwini said he gave Obama a copy of new book, “American Crescent,” and invited Obama to visit his center.

The meeting with Obama came about after Qazwini had asked David Bonior, the former U.S. Rep. from Michigan, if he could meet with Obama during his visit. Qazwini was not selected to be part of a group of 20 people who met with Obama, but Qazwini later got a private meeting with Obama, Alawan said.

“They gave him an opportunity for a one-on-one,” Alawan said.

Googling around I see the wingers are all over this story and have excerpts of reviews of the book. Reading about this meeting gave me new insight into the timing of his gaffes with Bush, and his odd statements about Iran while in Oregon and anything he has said about foreign policy since last Wed. I’d sure like to know what they talked about in this private one-on-one.

rwc

Hassan Qazwini has ties to Hizbollah and preaches hatred against the west. A foul creature that ought to spend time in Gitmo. Also WTF is it with Barky and hanging with terrorists and terrorist supporters?

The miscreant seems to have a aversion to associating with anyone who isn’t a crook, on the take, ripping off poor people, promoting hatred or likes blowing people up.

And yeah the GOP is going to have a field day labeling Obama and rightfully so as a supporter of Islamic terrorism.

baby_puppy

TM refugee also, although have enjoyed this site for a while with one previous post.

We do in fact have a Muslim Congressman I believe. I was more than a little perturbed when he insisted on using the Koran instead of a Bible when being sworn in. Atleast that’s how I remember it.

Anyways, it’s a shame we are so afraid of radical Islam that we are compelled to elect a man only on the basis of the color of his skin — to Appease — the Muslim community and countries. I thought we were home of the brave. So, after 9/11 we care more about “sending a signal” to the world than taking care of business.

http://www.danaseilhan.com Dana

Why would you be perturbed by a Muslim swearing in on the Qur’an? Why *should* he swear in on the Bible? That’s stupid and it’s asking him to commit blasphemy.

By the way, that Qur’an was originally owned by Thomas Jefferson, who was aware of Muslims and felt that religious freedom should apply to them too. (He called them Mohammedans, a common practice in that time.)

http://nobloodforhubris.blogspot.com No Blood for Hubris

Not a good argument against Obama, really.

But probably true.

Look at Salman Rushdie.

workingclass artist

Salman Rushdie had a fatwa sworn out on him because he had committed the sin of Blasphemy and there were some Muslim scholars who also felt he was Heretical….Heresy and Blasphemy are serious theological crimes in the three Traditional Religions of the Book…Jews…Roman Catholics…Muslims
Jews and Catholics argue and censure the author….and in Catholicism there is ex-communication….although even this can be revoked…chuckle

** Pope John Paul II revoked the ex-communication of Martin Luther **

Mulims tend to have real and corporal punishments for these crimes and these vary depending on the faction ( sunni or shia )…the country…The tribal traditions…and Ethinicity…
Sharia Law is Shia…It is not sanctioned or recognized by Sunnis…
In terms of sheer numbers Sunnis far outnumber Shias…Iran is a Shia Nation….Saudi Arabia is a primarily Sunni Nation….
We are witnessing a reformation in Islam imho….and this will escalate similar to the Reformation in Christendom…

http://www.danaseilhan.com Dana

I’m confused.

I was aware of the transmission of Islam from father to children. It’s the reason Muslim women are forbidden to marry non-Muslim men, not even People of the Book who would otherwise be acceptable marriage partners.

However, I never reconciled that with the fact that the declaration of faith is one of the five pillars of Islam without which one is not Muslim. In short, if you don’t declare yourself a Muslim, a believer in the One God and in Muhammad as His final prophet, you aren’t a Muslim. Period.

Not to mention the verse in the Qur’an which says there is no compulsion in religion. (It echoes Paul in the New Testament stating that conversion only comes from the Holy Spirit.)

So how is Islam possibly heritable? I think the original understanding might have been that the father was expected to convey religious education to his children. Otherwise, “born Muslims” can’t possibly be real Muslims without taking Shahada, or else the five pillars of the faith are not as carved in stone (no pun intended) as we’ve all been told they are.

This is important and it is something I would like to see Ms. Burki answer.

Meanwhile, glad to see Islamophobia and racism are alive and well in America. For Pete’s sake… I have Muslim neighbors downstairs from me, the wife always wears hijab outdoors or when she has guests, and I have yet to see the husband or the sons in turbans. What about Sikhs, eh, or Hindu gurus? They wear turbans too.

For that matter, what about the Constitution which says there is to be no religious test for public office? Once upon a time it was unthinkable that a Catholic should be President because bigots thought he would answer first and foremost to the Pope. Then came JFK. You know, I hope Obama IS a closet Muslim. Maybe once people were confronted with him being a normal, decent human being, well-meaning Americans could finally stop being assaulted with these hateful statements everywhere we go.

Oh, and by the way? The Nation of Islam? Is not real Islam. Nice try though. (I think some of its mosques reverted to traditional Islam, but the original strain of NOI is not orthodox in the slightest.)

pm317

I don’t think the author of the blog or the original article is saying that Obama’s candidacy should be rejected because he is a Muslim. They are discussing how the rest of the world and especially Muslim world may react to his presidency. I think this is a valid foreign policy issue and one that could be helped by Obama if he discusses his own Muslim heritage fearlessly. Nobody is seeking that he deny or reject his Muslim heritage but the fact that he brushes it under the carpet is problematic — especially when we have wars going on in two major Islamic nations and we have Al quaeda to deal with. My problem with him is not his religion but his fundamental lack of preparation to deal with these huge foreign policy issues. It is enough we had one Bush for 8 years.
pm317

Also BTW dismissing (or scoffing at or distorting)legitimate voter concerns in the course of evaluating the candidates as Islamphobia or racism will not help advance an elevated political discourse. Not everybody is as highly evolved as you are!

pm317

Thanks for the blog. I do think this will be another complication in the foreign policy area if Obama becomes the nominee and then GoP will distort and makes his Muslim by birth notion an issue to make the situation worse. We have not had rational discussions on race (how it is being misused by his own campaign), religion (how it will be misused by the GoP). The only person who can help us here on both race and religion is Obama but he does not seem up to that big challenge. He has used his race in the most blatant fashion so far to win and that has not helped in any positive way for us to become post-racial — it has only hardened age old divisions. He has not confronted his Muslim heritage in a candid fashion for us to understand how his candidacy will fit into this global war on terrorism where whether we like it or not Muslim religion has continued to play a very significant role. As this article points out whether we agree or not, the worldview will consider his Muslim heritage and react accordingly. I think it will be a big mistake to nominate him for all these glaring inadequacies. The fact that he is unprepared but yet running for this humongous leadership position leads me to believe he is putting himself before his country and its safety and well being.
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com Joseph Cannon

“Jewish Talmudic Law says if your mother is Jewish then you are. Do or say whatever you want, you are still a Jew.”

Not entirely true. I used to know a lady whose parents “sat Shiva” for her when she married a gentile. I imagine that something similar occurs in cases of actual conversion.

workingclass artist

If her family sat shiva because she married outside Judaism than it must be because they are orthodox….The most common interfaith marriages are between Roman Catholics and Jews….Each Religion has specific requirements for this as a pragmatic solution usually having to do with children…Most of these interfaith marriages are between reformed Jews and mainstream Roman Catholics ( American )
Some conversions occur…usually if it involves more Orthodox Jews in the case of the Female being Catholic converting to Judaism…It is a very tricky theological conudrum for the Catholic….

Centrocitta

…..The most common interfaith marriages are between Roman Catholics and Jews……..

Most common for whom? If a Roman Catholic chose to marry outside of Catholocism, it would likely be to a CHRISTIAN of another denomination and NOT to a Jew. Furthermore, Catholics do not undergo conversion no matter what the faith of the partner AND the Catholic must agree to have all children of the marriage baptized in the Catholic faith. Any Catholic who does not agree prior to marriage to a non-Catholic is ex-communicated from the church.

workingclass artist

I am quoting a statistic…in terms of christians and non-christians.
Scuse’ that I wasn’t clear. Actually there are cases of catholics ( female ) who did covert to orthodox judaism….and of course they were ex-communicated…So I don’t disagree except that I’m not quoting fiction.
These marriages are more common than you think…and usually the children are baptised Catholic…celebrate both traditions but I’m not sure of Barmitzvah….I think mostly the kids do the catholic thang….I knew one guy who didn’t find out he was Jewsih until an adult and he’s still on his quest for integration…I’m just sayin’

workingclass artist

I might also add that in Catholicism…other denominations of christianity are not considered other faiths….They are considered to stem from the original source….Even the Greek Orthodox which split from the Roman Mother in the First Great Schism….
Interfaith in utilizing the vatican definition of understanding would be different THEOLOGIES….of the Worlds Great Religions…
Interdenominational would refer to the different christian churches,
i,e…Protestant…Greek Orthodox…Manchean…Coptic…etc…

Stop Obama/Marx 08

Obama’s loose lips showed his true Islamic background.
Getting caught telling us about the 57 nation states of Islam and not knowing how many states are in our union petrifies me to the core.
This is an attempt to buy entry into our government by foreign powers aligned with the petro governments of the 57 Islamic states,the loser elite within the democrat party and the DNC.
If this is in fact the case then Dean and all are looking like traitors.

rwc

Obama made it clear in his books that he has no use for the west or white people including his grandparents who raised him whom he viewed with contempt. He has nothing good to say about anything the west.

His wife is no better. She could give Winnie Mandela lessons on necktie parties.

Whats amusing about all of this, is that for the last 8 years the DNP has been fighting and losing against charges they are weak on national security.

Now they hand the GOP a candidate that is straight out of hell on national security and may as well be a mole for radical Islam given his associations.

The DNP will never ever be able to live it down if he gets the nomination.

Idiots.

Martin

Well said. The party has a death wish. Well, they will get it.

cows4us

Obama cannot win, with or without us – do you not see how they have already branded him:
- an arrogant elitist (Ted Kennedy and John Kerry supporting him doesn’t help)
-with questionable terrorist ties with radical Muslims (Odinga, Farrakhan) and left-wing bomber nuts (Ayers)
-and corrupt money-guys (Rezko)
-and crazy white-hating preacher (Wright)
-and ungrateful, angry, gloomy “never-proud” wife,
- while he who disparages “bitter” poor, working-class “clingy” Americans who already fear he will take over this country and cause race wars or implement Sharia law!

And you think the right-wing is going to let someone like this get elected? They were ready to bear arms for “value” issues like abortion and gay marriage.

A terrorist Muslim Manchurian candidate?

They will turn out in record numbers! Obama can’t even convince the Democrats in the party to vote for him – let alone the rest of the country of Independents and Republicans.

Wishful dreaming to the utmost. A candidate who doesn’t even pass average American’s smell test.

If you think I’m exaggerating, let it be noted that the movie “The Manchurian Candidate” is making a huge comeback in DVD rentals everywhere. A lot of Americans believe Obama is Muslim – many more just don’t trust him because of his associations with Wright, Ayers, Auchi, Rezko, Odinga, etc. Those who are kind, at the very least, question his judgment in making such awful acquaintances, and for a poor, non-existent public accomplishments record for the people of Chicago for whom he served, let alone that of America.

We like to think we’re important – but truth is, Obama couldn’t get elected even if they forced every one of us to vote for him.
nate

So now it’s important what the terrorists believe about us? According to Sharia we would probably all be sentenced to death for doing things that you would consider to be a normal weekend. But I don’t see anyone wringing their hands about how we are perceived by people that we consider maniacs.

You people are sick. Try and get some fresh air every once in a while.

workingclass artist

In sharia law there are provisions ascribed for the case of ignorance in the infidel….Christians and Jews are considered People of the Book in that we share the same theological source of Holy Scripture…The Old Testament or the Torah….The Koran is considered to be a correction and addendem to the Old Testament…The New Testament is considered to be in Error…
Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet….But consider his devinity to be in Error….Since each of the tree religions profess faith in the God of Abraham each qualifies as the People of the Book although Jews are in error and Christians are potential heretics ( Muslims scholars are still wiggling around with that one as the theological concept of the trinity still baffles them and so they tend to be cautious )….Buddists, Athiests and Pagans have different proscriptions under the law which historically used to be much more severe…This is why during the Soviet Occupation of Afganistan there were specific instruction about an anything goes policy towards the treatment of captured russian soldiers if they were athiest…and it was not pretty…I’m just sayin’…

Dave

PROTEST OBAMA IN HOLLYWOOD FLORIDA ON THURSDAY

protesting Obama’s event at the Diplomat Hotel in Hollywood, Florida on May 22, 2008 because he will not support counting our votes.

PROTEST OBAMA IN HOLLYWOOD FLORIDA ON THURSDAY
workingclass artist

Good article….Muslims…Jews…and Catholics are both cultural and theological. In these…The tradition is both the practice and the birthrite and is expressed in a variety of ways….For Catholics it is the infant baptism.
These are traditions which are ancient and interspesed within the cultures in marriage…customs…doctrinal theologly that are specific to each. This is often difficult for protestants to understand as protestantism was founded in reaction to the theological, political, and cultural customs pervasive in these older religions. One thing that the traditional factions share is the custom that is a shared birthrite….In other words born a Jew…Muslim…Catholic…Always a Jew…Muslim…Catholic….whether actively practicing or not. APOSTASY IS DEFINED IN EACH AND IS A SERIOUS THEOLOGICAL CRIME IN THAT IT IS A GREAT OFFENSE AGAINST GOD….
Judaism and Catholicism have moved into the modern age in that these infractions have theological/spiritual consequences as well as cultural which usually result in social rejection within the church and or family although there is the possibility of redemption if sought depending on the sect. For instance Catholics quit burning infidels, apostates, heretics and witches by the 18th c. Jews quit stoning blasphemers,heretics and apostates after the great Diaspora set in motion with the destruction of Jerusalem.
Severe punishment for the crimes of Apostasy…Heresy…Blasphemy are still pervasive in Muslim Theocracies….This is a fact.
PaganPower

Because according to Obama he turned his back on his birthright religion he would represent an even more hated figure to Muslims around the world. In their religion someone that turns away from Islam is even worse than an infidel. And those folks don’t like infidels at all.
Patrick Walker

Well, not to come across as defending Obama, but so what if he is or is not a Muslim? Is being Muslim dirty and wasn’t Obama’s contact with his father very limited? Didn’t his father leave when he was like two? Wasn’t his mother an athiest during her adult life?

What I’m trying to say is that him being Muslim, Athiest or Christian when he is obviously more flawed in just about any other respect you can think of. F*ck religion. This guy’s policy platform is garbage.

Finally, who cares what Osama thinks, really. No matter who wins the election it certainly will not lead to a change of heart in him, nor will it stop him from making those silly videotapes.

workingclass artist

Patrick…I actually have no opinion on the matter…I just enjoy theology and philosophy as hobbies to investigate…What does matter is that most folks are informed by their culture…And with Obama this is vague…The indications are that those who shaped this man are imo fascist and racist…

TeakWoodKite

Hampster…the views of many people in this country are influenced by feelings instead of fact.

Thanks for the ones your curiosity sought out.

I caught a clip of L Farrakhan on Democracy now last night. Goodwin showed it ’cause it was his birthday.

In the clip which was filmed a year before his death,
I heard many of the same words that Rev. Wright speaks and in turn what BO can’t “disown”…

“BY any means necessary” is still stuck in my head along with hearing him say the US Constitution “right to bear arms” is something Farrakhan was in favor of.
Pingback: More Facts about Mr Obama … « Obama who ?
HillaryMadamePresident

Great commentary. This is not something I have considered before….there are just too many negatives for an Obama presidency…and not that he is a muslim by birthright, but that it could undermine the very thing that people who support him, hope having him in office would bring. He is suspect on so many levels and it makes him unelectable.
candy

You’re leaving out a scenario…

What if he visited Qazwini to say ‘the brothers do know it’s taqiyya right?, they’re not gonna kill me because they really think i’m a Christian?

Why do think al Jazeera’s first poll on our presidency had him leading in every muslim country (i’m talking 80% averages), who can explain that.

But it does explain why he doesn’t know scripture after 20 years and how he threw his pastor away for convenience… he has no clue and wore that church as a coat to get where he wanted to go… and i’m sure, since rev. wright was so tight with Hamas anyway… it wasn’t a problem.

I said before, the whole denounce thing was a setup, that’s why you never heard from Wright again, Axelrod hired the PR firm for him and the church.

It also explains his madrassa type fountain of American History. When he named presidents who met with tyrants, he was wrong and they were the worst examples (re: the outcome he spoke on), for the subject.

It also explains a lot of votes (when he did) and legislation in Illinois… not to mention last years vote against John Doe in the flying imams case… but maybe i’m dum and didn’t get the legal genius.
Ulahane

I agree with your premise here, for once. However, this does make a mockery of Kerry’s claim that Obama’s background makes him uniquely qualified to negotiate with Middle Eastern countries.
Hope

We don’t want to do what Bin Laden DOES approve of. We need to serve as a constant obstacle to his plans. In that sense, if any terrorist group/person is in favor of Obama, why wouldn’t that cause us to wonder?
Obama’s questionable judgment, questionable associations, questionable stance against our known enemies is dangerous. Why do his supporters not see this? He has given no indication of supporting America and our way of life. His whole argument is the WE need to “change” OUR ways to pacify,and condone other countries’/leaders’ viewpoints. We have always stood as the champion of democracy, has that CHANGED?
Tom Plumb

Kerry’s argument would be valid if Obama’s’ unique Muslim background weren’t full of Jew haters.

Not the brightest thing, Kerry.

This, from the same group who never could recognize the republican threat as real, still can’t even thought Cheney and Bush opened an f’ing military concentration camp, in Gitmo, and endorsed TORture…

Yep, that Kerry and Dean, brilliant.
workingclass artist

Well in my observation…OBAMA IS A FASCIST…WHETHER THIS BE MUSLIM OR LIBERATION THEOLOGY…THE RESULT IS THE SAME…
HE IS FASCIST AND A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY AS WE KNOW IT…
Tom Plumb

Btw, Bush is a stinking hypocrite, but his remarks about Obama, in Jerusalem, were dead on.

Just because the democrats are somewhere where else, doesn’t meant the rest of the world, and the US is, too.

We don’t buy Obama, and we don’t buy the weak attempts to rationalize Obama’s hate, his strategy, his truth.

Like the Clinton votes, (she is winning – they refuse to acknowledge the truth of Clinton’s success over Obama), they refuse to understand the IMPACT of Bush’s remarks, given Obama’s background and social circle of Jew haters.

Bush told the truth.

(Sorry, I was going to say Israel haters, but this is about Jewish people with Obama’s group, pure and simple).
AXT

Kerry couldn’t grasp that he had to fight back against the “swiftboaters”.
So don’t be suprised that Kerry doesn’t see any downside to Mr. Obama.
Tom Plumb

I don’t know, maybe Kerry thinks he can reason with Farrakhan, maybe he sees himself as a missionary to crazy, but given it didn’t work out with Cheney, Bush, and the republicans, I wouldn’t expect much here, either.

If people like Wright and Farrakhan were rational, this wouldn’t be an issue.

Like Cheney, they have no intention of compromising, ever.
ndree

Kerry should crawl under a slimy rock……in shame.
out of the mouth of corruption, murky corrupt thoughts shall flow. All a bunchy of bitter losers, desperate for a legacy, willing to take the country DOWN in the effort!
Tom Plumb

You can’t deal with crazy people, they have NO intention on compromise.

Just like Bush and Cheney, it’s a deliberate strategy, everything is a scam with that group, everything.

The sooner they wise up, the better.

You can’t deal with that type of neocon, and you can’t deal with Al Queda, and you can’t deal with Obama, and co.

Someone made the point in another thread scientists were aware Pluto may have existed before it was discovered because of the behavior of the planets around it.

This is an analogy for how to fight crazy.

The democrats did not understand this about the republicans they were dealing with, the republican can’t understand it in terms of the world.

These people are NOT rational, and war will not work, ever, it simply results in mutual destruction.

SO, now what?

Well, I certainly wouldn’t ask a neocon, look at the level of troll here, everything can be resolved by force and sophistry in their little heads, but that just isn’t true, now, is it?

Too many complications, they can’t deal, so they shut down, and use more force.

Just like everyone KNEW they would.

And they’re losing, all of them.