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Incarceration Nation

By Pat Racimora on June 18, 2009 at 6:05 PM in Crime

We have a big problem here!

For the first time in our country’s history, one of every 100 Americans is behind bars.* Ten out of every 100 Black Americans between the ages of 20 and 34 is behind bars. Men are about 13 times more likely to be incarcerated than are women. However, rate of incarcerated women is growing faster than the rate for men. With the economy continuing to tank, the crime rate is expected to rise. Perpetrators will increasingly include otherwise-honest-but-now-desperate folks along with those with more malevolent intent.

So, what are our options? (A couple of them might concern you greatly.)

1. Build more prisons to alleviate the overcrowding. That would mean billions more tax payer dollars not to mention the $30,000 average per year we pay for each person locked up in state prisons. Indoctrinating even more citizens into a “prison culture” is not healthy for our society. Short answer: Even if anyone thinks this is a good idea, we don’t have the money.

2. Just release a bunch of inmates to reduce the prison population as well as costs. In California, especially, this option is being widely contemplated. The “3 strikes” law means that many convicted felons have served far more time than the usual penalty for that third conviction. Those who have already served some jail time for so-called “victimless crimes” may be good candidates to let loose. Those who committed crimes of passion, despite the seriousness of their actions, appear to be less likely to reoffend. Maybe some current inmates would be suitable for serving the rest of their sentences under house arrest. But where is that bright line that separates those who will not likely hurt anyone and predators who will again mess with our property, our rights, and our bodies? It’s not an easy call.

3. Allow district attorneys to decide to prosecute felonies as misdemeanors. This is an outrageous “Crime Can Pay” solution, yet is exactly what is being proposed in California. Fewer trials, fewer convictions, lowered expenses for jails and penitentiaries. Sounds good until you learn what some of the crimes on the list of “wobblers” (translation: crimes that can be reduced to misdemeanors) are: fraud, forgery, grand theft, identity theft, auto theft, making a false bomb report, owning a chop shop, and destruction of utility lines to name a few. This option appears to make crime an attractive alternative to legitimate work. One just needs to be careful and not get caught. And if you do get caught, no need to break a heavy sweat. Maximum time = one year in county jail. Then out again to steal our identities and our cars.

4. Deport all those who are not American citizens to their own countries. Wow—what a great idea, until you look a little deeper that is. Immigrants convicted of crimes are deported only after they serve out their sentences here. (Also, many non-citizens who are incarcerated in the United States had gained legal status, but it was revoked after their conviction.) So here’s the thing: If we just open the prison gates and send them home, or send them home as soon as they have been convicted, what do we expect their homelands to do with them? Their countries of origin typically have their own serious economic and social problems and are not in the business of solving ours. This “solution” appears to be another in the “crime pays” category.

Furthermore, it is a myth that foreigners comprise the main group clogging our jails and prisons. It appears, according to Ruben Rumbaut, a professor of sociology at UC Irvine, that American men ages 18 to 39 are five times more likely to land in prison than male immigrants in the same age range.

5. Just take some crimes off the books. Low level crimes that involve consensual behavior and violate no one else’s rights warrant reconsideration. Making marihuana cultivation, dealing and smoking legal is one proposal that would solve some problems, but possibly cause new ones. Legalizing prostitution may save money for the police, courts, and jails, yet possibly enable the destruction of families in the process. Assisted suicide is a more charged issue, but some states are looking at that. Public nudity doesn’t seem like an offense that requires doing any time. Maybe a ticket.

Yet not all crimes considered “victimless” are victimless at all. For example, choosing to not wear a motorcycle helmet is against the law and considered as a low-level victimless crime. But, what about the person driving the car that accidentally hits and kills this moron? That driver, despite being blameless, could be haunted for a lifetime. Knowingly receiving stolen property does not hurt the crook from whom it is purchased, but what about the person from whom it was taken? Is being one step from the crime OK?

6. Finally, provide more programs aimed at preventing people from engaging in the kind of behavior that gets them into legal trouble in the first place. Over half of the inmates in our jails and prisons have mental health problems. According to Dr. Michale Norko, writing for the Psychiatric Times, despite the crippling cost to the economy, we get a false sense of security from tossing people who we think we need to be afraid of behind bars. Risk assessment works off probabilities, often based on other than hard scientific evidence, and rounds up a lot of people who may act oddly or be self-destructive but don’t pose any substantial risk to anyone besides, perhaps, themselves. Putting funding into mental health programs and directing the substance dependent and the mentally ill to treatment rather than confinement would ultimately save money, lives, and families in the longer run.

How do you see this problem?

Postscript: Actually, I would willingly contribute to a fund to pay for the prison stays of some of the fancy so-called “white-collar criminals” who knowingly committed acts that are bringing down our economy.

*Stats are from a recent Pew Research Center study,

old one

The motorcycle helmet laws referenced in paragraph 5 were designed to reduce the catastrophic medical costs (ultimately covered by taxpayers) for traumatic brain injuries. Laws are not passed to relieve a third-party (the other driver) of “guilty feelings.”
http://noquarter foxyladi14

as the economy worsens the crime rate will go up.

TeakWoodKite

In my town they are laying of 17 police officers.

A whole shift.

As for the “Three strikes law” in California, it is one I would vote for every time. By the time a violent offender gets 3 strikes, the odds are they do not care about the law.

Pat thanks for the art and the topic. Not an easy one to find answers to. We call this country a country of laws. The size of the prison population is a reflection of the disintegration of the fabric of our society.

The personal responsibility that accompanies freedom is missing. Book ‘em Dano.

Ferd Berfle

Judges would disagree with you. Each one I’ve talked to would like discretion to either increase or decrease, as appropriate, the sentence. Lawmakers are mainly grandstanders who care not a tinker’s cuss about the efficacy of laws they pass and are only in it for the appearance of toughness and the re-election such appearance will grant them. Judges, on the other hand, are in the trenches actually working in the system devised by the out-of-touch politicians. There is a substantive difference between careless enacting and actually use of laws on the books.

TeakWoodKite

Ferd Berfle…call me crazy but Prop 66 was defeated in California. Three strikes was passed by the voters of California not politicians. Is it harsh in some circumstanse? Perhaps.
The event that triggered this law happened on June 29th, 1992 when Kim Reynolds 18,was killed by Joe Davis.

Walker and friend Joe Davis targeted Kimber Reynolds, an 18-year-old design student, for a robbery in the Tower District on June 30, 1992. She was shot to death as she fought the robbers for her purse.

Davis, the gunman who killed Reynolds, was later killed in a police shootout. To avoid murder charges, Walker accepted a plea agreement in Fresno County Superior Court, saying he was guilty of robbery, attempted robbery and accessory charges. In December 1992, he was sentenced to nine years in prison. The sentence also gave him two strikes.

After Walker served 4-1/2 years in prison, he was paroled. Within a few weeks, he violated parole and was arrested and sent back to prison.

He since has been in and out of prison, last being released in February, according to records with the California Department of Corrections.

.

Real victims of career criminals.

graywolf

Yeah right!!!
Drug dealers need the money for food and books for their kids….
LMFAO

Hg

Not long ago PBS ran a show in which a woman in her late 30s was complaining that her children would not have a good christmas because the state (law enforcement) had burned the family’s marijuana crop. This was in Arkansas.

Ferd Berfle

I made my opinion on the useless, pointless drug laws known before so I’ll only say that ending them would solve several thorny issues, among them ending an expensive war that cannot be won thus freeing up prison space for those who actually should be behind bars, ending the life-cycle of a then superfluous governmental administration, ending the escalating cycle of violence between cops and better-armed thugs, and enabling law enforcement to work on more pressing matters. With respect to the “creating new problems” statement, if one wants simplicity and a lack of problems, then democracy and a free society are not the way to go. Philosophers since ancient Greece have been arguing that point for years. And to those in this country who are so gung-ho on incarcerating those who use drugs (or who work in or frequent brothels, as another example), then be prepared to pay for a bloated penal system into perpetuity.

BlueTopaz

I lived in Amsterdam for 15 years (and will be moving back asap). They have a much lower crime rate, for many reasons. My Boyfriend’s parents (in their 70s) had no problem with decriminalized soft drugs. In fact, we gave his mom some hash because she was having problems sleeping.

True story…. some tourists who were confused about the drug laws asked a cop if it was ok to buy pot off of the streets. The cop emphatically told them, “NO, you buy grass in coffee shop (pointed to closest one), never from the street”.

Pot and hash are so tame compared to booze, and don’t even get me started on the pharma drugs that are legally numbing the minds of masses.

Interesting how vibrant the pot hysteria still is. W.R. Hearst died in 1951. Why are we still living in the 1940′s

Ellen D

Legalizing prostitution may save money for the police, courts, and jails, yet possibly enable the destruction of families in the process.

I presume that the families in Nevada, never mind the Netherlands, have survived.

BlueTopaz

Yep. The Dutch are smart. They accept huMAN nature and make tax dollar off of it.

BlueTopaz

I mean, “Euros”.

Craig Della Penna

1) Agreed, we have far too many prisons now and it’s becoming a very profitable business for some firms – all the more reason to stop[ it now.

2) The “Three Strikes” laws are part of the abysmally stupid right wing stance that if we just beat them harder, they’ll stop.

3) Not good. This is one of those ideas that should never see the light of day. Good-intentioned though it may be, it’s completely unworkable for the reason you cite and also because: in the real world prosecutors make their reputations on how many convictions they get and misdemeanors don’t count. There’s just no incentive here for anyone to make it work.

4) Another non-starter for the reasons you state with additonal political downside of alienating the group of Americans it would most affect: Hispanic-Americnas. In fact, this one looks a lot like a stalking horse for right wing politics.

5) Yes! It’s ridiculous that smoking marijuana is a crime and drinking alcohol isn’t. Far, far too many of our prison inmates are serving long terms for marijuana possession.

6) Agreed, but we’ve got a long hard row to hoe there. We as a society don’t seem to get the “ounce of prevention…” adage. We’re apparently content to dump tons on money into cures and not spend one thin dime on prevention.

Two more points:

7) A large part of our prison problem is that we insist on seeing drugs as an adversarial condition. We have been fighting the “War on Drugs” for over three decades now with little or no favorable result. We need to look reality in the face: at any one moment some 20-25% of the human race is high on something. Prescription drugs, illegal drugs, alcohol hell even the nicotine in tobacco. That’s what we humans do: we try to alter our consciouness at every opportunity. The remedy for excessive use is not jail time; persuasion, prevention and treatment are the only real choices we have.

One of the other things that has created this problem is the right wing attempt to chain judges to their desks. Mandatory sentences and minmums should be thrown out. The net effect of all these laws has been to prevent the judge (note the title) from doing his/her job: judging. All the power has been handed over to the prosecutor: the one person who has no interest at all in seeing an even-handed outcome (note that title). The prosecutor, usually, younger and out to make his/her name by securing convictions and long prison terms, has a specific job: to advocate against the accused.
Our justice system is turned on its head by this logic and we, as a society, are paying the price every day.

Last, I frankly think that we should decriminalize all drugs. There are many arguments against this but they mostly resolve into two camps:

First, the moral outrage argument: we can’t do that, it would mean we approve of taking drugs.
Well, we actually do approve of taking drugs but only if they’re alcohol or nicotine (both poisons btw), so that argument is valueless.

Second is the the quasi-legal argument: we can’t decrimialize all drugs, that would mean we’d have a nation of drug addicts running around creating havoc.
But we actually do have a nation of drug addicts running around creating havoc… and we have a nation full of dealers and importers and suppliers and gangs all making billions of this illegal trade and shooting each other and any unlucky bystanders along the way. We have a huge, untaxed I might add, business taking up most of the efforts of every police force in the country, filling our prisons and costing us a fortune every day.
You may think that legalizing drugs is ridiculous but I submit that what we’re doing now is both stupid and crazy.

Ferd Berfle

Thank you, Craig.

Second is the the quasi-legal argument: we can’t decrimialize all drugs, that would mean we’d have a nation of drug addicts running around creating havoc.

Indeed. Legalizing drugs, from a process-driven analysis is the only way to extricate ourselves from this pious mess we’ve gotten ourselves into. We are in the classic do-loop that stretches into perpetuity. In addition, using the logic of the anti-drug establishment, cel-phones should be banned because they are starting to cause as many problems, both from the standpoint of automobiles and from the standpoint of interpersonal interaction. Using their slippery-slope fallacy, allowing the continued unbridled use of cellphones will lead directly to a breakdown in civilization. Sounds funny, doesn’t it? But if there is truth in one, then must be truth in the other because each is based on self-centered gratification.
graywolf

Mandatory sentencing came about because of repeated egregious instances of really stupid sentencing – or non-sentencing – by judges with a social worker/pro-criminal agenda or just plain dumb.
Remember “Cut’em loose Bruce” Wright in NYC?

From a victim (several times) of crime:
Every bad guy in jail is one less bad guy to rob or murder outside jail.
Pat Racimora

Thank you Craig for your very astute observations. Much appreciated. Actually I find most all of the comments (and the debates) to my toon/story fascinating! (I have read down to comment #70.)Thank you all.

TeakWoodKite

As for the illegal drug trade and the majority of inmates serving times for this, I would not be fore making it legal.

Man and girlfriend are at their home in Cutten, there is a knock at the door just after 9 p.m. They answer. It’s a guy with a gun in a black stocking cap. He comes in, tries to tie the couple up, struggle ensues, multiple shots fired, man who lives at home is pronounced dead at the hospital 2 hours later. Cops arrive and find “a large amount of marijuana” at the residence.

Still think marijuana production in Humboldt County is a good thing? Does anyone believe that this would have happened if there was no marijuana involved?

Please remember that Humboldt County, and especially Eureka, is a very dangerous place. Never, ever, under any circumstances, answer your door (day or night) without finding out who is knocking first. Home invasions happen here on a daily basis, but we generally don’t find out about them until someone gets assaulted or murdered

One recent study by Steven Hackett, an economics professor at Humboldt State University, estimated marijuana brings in as much as a half billion dollars to the county’s economy

So

Ferd Berfle

These things happen because drugs are illegal. I have tried, to no avail and ad nauseam, to point out that if such drugs were legal, pharmaceutical companies, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, would control the production and distribution. No more fights over at Deshaun’s or Pedro’s place. No one kills anyone anymore over liquor, unless it is a drunken brawl, which is a side issue unrelated to who controls distribution of legal products, i.e., a fight over a beer is not related to who happens to be selling it–I mean, really.

If we continue down the same path, only drug dealers (lords) will be selling and profitting (and by such profits, amass arsenals that would be the envy of any police force) and we will revisit this issue again and again until someone with an eye towards truth says, “The Emperor has no clothes”.

NoBamaNoWay

correct. i say legalize drugs AND increase the police forces / prison space, so that anybody who even thinks about committing a crime will know that there is a better than even chance that they will end up doing time in the slammer for it.

the reality right now in most places is that criminals know that more than likely they will *not* be caught and put in jail for the crimes they commit. is it any wonder then that crime is rampant in half of the country?

oowawa

Well Teak, if marijuana were legalized, do you think this horrible incident would have happened?

Ferd Berfle

Evening, oowawa.

It would not have happened. When the profit is eliminated, the crime withers away, as well. Those who are anti-drug are not looking at the entire picture with all its nuances. They still parrot the long-dispatched J. Edgar Hoover notion of a ruination of society. Gee, it hasn’t happened, yet. I’m more worried about morons who believe in Hope and Change than those using drugs.

oowawa

I agree, Ferd. Folks in the Emerald Triangle in NorCal will lose their cash cow, but incidents like that horror story brought forward by TeakWoodKite should become very rare, at least as far as marijuana is concerned. Will poppies thrive up there? I hope not . . .

Ferd Berfle

Will poppies thrive up there? I hope not . . .

Oowawa:

They’re probably better grown here but the meth trade has taken over, with all the crime associated with its creation and distribution. What I hear from my fellow Tennesseans is “incarcerate them”. What I hear, on the other hand, from judges, is “Don’t tie my hands” and that this is a “war” that has been raging for years (much like the moonshine wars of years past) that is not only unwinnable but foolish. When I served in Germany back in the 70s, one of the things I noticed was that there wasn’t a great deal of crime associated with drugs and/or alcohol. Apparently, their attitude towards it had some effect. Many drugs, which are still illegal over here were available over-the-counter there Mandrax (Quaalude-Rorher-714) being a typical example. The Germans got it right. We’re still defined by J. Edgar Hoover’s silly-ass, cross-dressing notions.

oowawa

Hi Ferd & Teak,

I somehow forgot about methedrine, and you’re absolutely correct–that’s where the real drug emergency is in Northern California and elsewhere. I guess I’m repressing all thought of it, because it has devastated close family and friends.

Teak, I appreciate your reasonable approach to this. The problem is huge and the solutions will be difficult to find and implement.

Ferd Berfle

Teak and oowawa:

I see the problem as one where, once again, the messenger is shot and the receiver of whatever, is held blameless. In this instance, we blame the drugs when the reality is far removed from such a scenario. Were drugs to blame, then deductively, all users would become addicts. Such is not the case. So, by current reactionary thought, because a limited percentage of people cannot handle a particular drug, then it should be made illegal for all. That is the same argument used against gun ownership by the loony left and against freedom of association by the right-wing nutbags. I’m sorry but I believe in more, and not less, freedom. Punish those who violate established rules and not the group. Drugs are not the problem–people who cannot handle their effect are. Go after them.

TeakWoodKite

Ferd I do not disagree on going after them.

“Marijuana arrests actually increased 18 percent in California in 2007 while all other arrests for controlled substances fell,” Steve Gutwillig, California’s director of Drug Policy Alliance, said during the press conference. “This costs the state a billion dollars a year and taxpayers are footing the bill. Meanwhile, black marketers are laughing all the way to the bank.”

Just to clarify Ferd, are you talking about any drug?

Ferd Berfle

With respect to legalization, I am talking about any “naturally-occurring” plant such as marijuana, psilocybin, peyote, cacao, and other non-processed flora. I am not speaking to the overly-refined drugs such as methamphetamines, barbiturates, and others, although my experience in Germany has proven to me that even those can be legal, given a responsible populace, which dovetails with my insistence that individuals be held accountable and not the drugs, per se.

TeakWoodKite

Oh…you mean
“Panama Red, Panama Red
On his white horse, Mescalito
He come breezin’ through town”…

Thanks for claifying it.
Seattle Moss

Just think of all the marvelous new imports.
and not from China

Acapulco Gold comes to mind or maybe some of that BC variety.

However,from what my limited knowledge tells me the United States makes the best
BlueTopaz

my limited knowledge tells me the United States makes the best

Then you’ve never tried “Nederwiet” and many of the other lovely varieties produced in Nederland, which, btw, is the 3rd largest agricultural exporter (mostly for flowers and bulbs). The US and France are #s 1 & 2. Pretty good for a tiny country that reclamed much of its land from the North Sea.
Seattle Moss

I love the Netherlands and have visited often especially in the post war days of the seventies.
That is one reason I live in Seattle as the climate is very similar to Europe.
We also have the 2nd largest tulip production in the world.

By the way…Nederweit sure helps pass the time when it’s your turn for plugging the dike with the finger routine.
TeakWoodKite

Isn’t Holland #1?

As far the eye can see, like mustard grass in Kansas.
Seattle Moss

Hey Teak,
I’m not sure who is number 1, but the Skagit fields sure look colorful to me coming back from my trips from Canada.

http://bikenerd.blogspot.com/2007/04/skagit-valley-tulip-festival.html

oowawa

Ferd, I appreciate your general viewpoint and agree in many respects, but I think we have to distinguish between growing pot and running a meth-lab. I don’t think we can legalize every controlled substance. I’m not sure if you are suggesting this. I believe that some drugs ARE in themselves a major problem.

oowawa

~~controlled substance~~=”illegal recreational drug.”

confusing!
Ferd Berfle

Oowawa: See my reply, above. The “hard” drugs are a problem, which will not be solved either by incarceration or by legalization. I think any naturally-occurring drug, as in flora, should be legalized. That being said, I do think the “war” is lost but I do not have an answer to alternatives. The additional concern I have is that there seems to be a differentiation between illegal and legal use of these drugs, which amounts to an argument based upon equivocation. If they are not good in one case, then they really aren’t good in any case, whether under a Doctor’s care or not. Rush Limbaugh got hooked on prescription medication via a doctor, which makes him no less hooked than someone who did so without a doctor’s order. Any distinction here lacks any substantive difference. This is where I am having a great deal of intellectual difficulty with one scenario being hunky-dory and the other a punishable offense.

oowawa

Thanks for clarifying your position, Ferd. The “naturally occurring” stipulation has some resonance for me, as does the “overly-refined” consideration, though it would sure be hard to define “overly.” I’m going to think about all of this.
Ferd Berfle

though it would sure be hard to define “overly.” I’m going to think about all of this.

From the perspective of a chemist, I can say that if the compound is not naturally-occurring in nature (as most of the new drugs), then it is probably in the category “over-refined” and potentially a poison.
TeakWoodKite

Ok Ferd and oowawa,

After thinking on it a bit, here is the direction of my misgiving.

Here is the senerio.
I am a person living a megar existance off the land. A group of armed men tresspass on my few acres of earth sky and inform me that I will be growing pot for them. They will pay me, but if I say no bad things will happen to me and or my family. Now as far I can tell as long as I comply I will survive.

After harvest the truck drives of my property and I am left with a warning. Say nothing. My cousin down the road would not comply. He is missing.

What country do I live in?

TeakWoodKite

Ferd Berfle and oowawa, I completely respect your position and have no trouble entertaining it myself.
That said, there always will be a profit to be made from poverty.

It is impossible to take the profit out of this equation. You can transfer it to the state if you like or a “drug” company…but I can not see it becoming a viable distrubution system.

But at it’s lowest point it STILL is corosive to society. Please understand that I am not anti drug. I voted for the medical marijuana here in California and currently it is being abused beyond belief, much to my dismay. So after we tax pot, what about Meth and hard drugs that are so destructive as well? What of the the corporatization of the drug trade? I dissagree that this would not have happened. The murder I sited occured BECAUSE Humboldt county decriminalized the production of this crop.
The money;

Marijuana is California’s number one cash crop, according to federal estimates, worth double the state’s vegetable and grape crops combined – or about $14 billion a year

.

I voted for the drug court system in California.
I am open minded about it but would like to see how this will work. Just think, we never would have a Jack Kennedy if Kennedy Sr. had not been a bootlegger with Onansis.

Ferd Berfle

Just think, we never would have a Jack Kennedy if Kennedy Sr. had not been a bootlegger with Onansis.

And Old Joe made his money before the repeal of Prohibition. I think I can rest my case. Those who want the status quo are in line with the bootleggers of the world, even if only by proxy.

I am open minded about it but would like to see how this will work.

As it does with alcohol. While not perfect, it does work, which is the trait to which any policy should ultimately aspire.

TeakWoodKite

Ferd, I was conceding your point.

I am FOR removing the criminal element of the drug trade but I have very mixed feelings about it.

By the by, I have never met a person that uses heroin or tweeker that could “handle” the drugs. They are just plain destructive.

So where does one draw the line in balancing the right of the individual against the cost to the society?

Ferd Berfle

Ferd, I was conceding your point

Sorry, Teak

So where does one draw the line in balancing the right of the individual against the cost to the society?

It is on a case-by-case basis along the lines of “where your nose begins, my rights end”. We use it in every other conceivable potential way, except for the use of drugs, which rather baffles me, especially considering the fact that if such a drug is “legally” prescribed (and has the same effect, irrespective of how it is attained), the consequences of taking it, although physiologically the same, are condoned, if not entirely overlooked. On the one hand, drugs are bad but on the other, they’re good if a doctor prescribes it for you. Yeah, and that next pharmaceutical commercial will remind you of that very “fact” as they’re pushing their newest poison on an unsuspecting public.

We are a nation of pill-poppers, taking them for everything from lack of interest to need for more sleep. White Rabbit was a prescient song.

Thanks, but I’ll take the natural stuff, myself.

TeakWoodKite

No sorry required. I was just reflecting on your position and was looking to Prohibiton as an example.

Still I believe tobacco distribution is a better distribution model.

So would this be a state distribution or private enterprise or?

Seattle Moss

My Grandfather had a speakeasy in the back of his ice cream store..
I always admired him for that.

TeakWoodKite

ha! cold ice cream by day and cold drinks by night!

Where did he hail from? Smart man.

Seattle Moss

Teak,
Good observation…
The police never had any idea that the block ice was being used for other purposes.
You’re not going to believe this…
My Grandfather comes from Newport Rhode Island and knew Joseph Kennedy back in the day. My mother used to go to school for a time with Jackie.
We are Kennedy democrats and I was born within an hour of
JFK. Jr. back on Thanksgiving day just after Kennedy won the election.
My mother even campaigned for Kennedy and I’m sure she was delighted to hear the coincidence over the air waves. When John John died a piece of me died too.
My heritage comes from the hard working and free Irish of New England and the industrial minded German’s of the steel mills of western Penn.

Seattle Moss

My heritage is also romantic Italian, but since OIAF is no longer here I don’t have any real reason to bring it up…

SoCalDem

I too live in California and how is the system in your mind being played? In my area things seem to function quite well. You have to see a Doctor to get the script, they have several pharmacies, but no one that isn’t registered at that pharmacy is allowed inside.
You can’t go in there and buy a pound. Its actually very safe, much safer than trying to find it in the streets. Pricing could come down a little, but all in all it workes for me. I am not for all drugs being legal, some of the drugs today are lethal. Meth, crank and most stimulants are very damaging to your heart.

TeakWoodKite

SoCalDem, up in the northbay you can see billboards advertising for “Medical Mariuana”, easy approval etc. which I find very disturbing…

There are only a few “distributors” in the state and there are still orginized crime elements involved. ABC 7 SF, did a story on a doctor who’s only patients are 215′s. 10 minutes out the door you go. This doctor and many like him are scamming the system. Much of it is a cash transaction.
Are you aware of how that pot gets from the ground to the dispensery?
Hint; there a guns and violence involved.

Still, 14 billion dollars of mostly untaxed revenue is very tempting source of money.
I think if the tax on it went exclusivley to law enforcement…I might change my opposition to making it legal.

But hey, PG&E is making a killing.

Ken in IL

Out source our prison business to Afghanistan. Move anyone doing more than 10 yrs over there. I hear they have a fine system. It would also provide work for the locals–they would have something to do besides grow poppies! Visits could be done by teleconference.

Jo

That is a win-win situation. I like it.

Ferd Berfle

And in 10 years, those felons will be running that country and we’ll be back there again trying to rid ourselves of that problem much like the 1980s support of the Mujahideen led to Osama bin Laden.

Really, do try to think a position through to its logical conclusion before recommending such a silly notion.

lark

Your notion sound much more sillier, Ferd. You make worse assumptions than Ken.

oowawa

Subtle and very striking ‘toon, Pat. There ARE figures behind those bars, behind those hands, but they are only dim shadows.

As the economy deteriorates and public money is voted down for even necessary school improvements, it is unlikely that many of us are going to be willing to put those scarce tax dollars into prison relief rather than schools. Most of us would rather spend money on innocent children than convicted criminals. It seems the only option is to thin out the prison population by the most sensible criteria. Evicting prisoners who are locked up for marijuana possession and cultivation would be one possibility to consider.
thinker

For almost every black crimial languishing in jail there is a blck victim trying to put thier life back together. The reason why there are so many black men in jail is because black criminals perpetrate the most vicious, violent and rutless crimes against other blacks. In fact, if blacks managed to rid themeselves of the stigma associated with”snitching” the black prison population would be even larger.

It is such an ignorant and romantic notion that the prisons are filled with innocent men, and that if we just opened the jail gates we would all just get along. In fact those criminals will continue to terrorise certain communities and we will just continue to have a plethora of black victims until we close the gates again.

legalising drugs is not the answer unless you can figure out what to do with the crack babies and all the impaired drivers and workers. Plus, even if drugs such as crack and herion are readily avalable drug users will still return to the black market seeking a cheaper or faster high or more intense high.

By the way there are very few people sitting in jail for marijuana offenses — certainly not in New York, and our prisons are still crowded.

what’s the answer? I really don’t know, but human nature tells me that none of the above solutions will work.

Ferd Berfle

unless you can figure out what to do with the… and all the impaired drivers

I took this snippet for an analogy. According to your implied logic, cellphone usage in automobiles should be banned altogether because its use is just as dangerous as impairment by alcohol or drugs. Until I see the gnashing of teeth over cellphones and autos, I will not believe a word of the concern over the potential effects of drug abuse and driving.

And how long, exactly, are we to continue this “war” on drugs before we cry Uncle?

thinker

I must have totally missed your point, are you comparing cell phone usage in automobiles with operating vehicles and machinery while impaired by drugs. Have you ever gone to a crack house, and would you want anyone in there driving an 18-wheeler.
Like I said, I don’t have the answer but illegal drugs are highly addictive, and impairment from drug use is usually severe so unfettered use of these substances will benefit no-one. By the way you have not addressed what to do about the crack babies – perhaps some more prisons for the drug mothers??

Ferd Berfle

Cell-phone usage in automobiles has been deomnstrated to be as bad, if not worse, than driving whle impaired. Look it up–I won’t do your homework for you.

Blame the person who can’t handle the drug and not the drug itself. You generalize in a false way much as those who would ban guns because of a few knotheads.
NoBamaNoWay

we already have crack babies, and crack and is illegal, so what’s your point? how about enforcing laws wrt child welfare and endangerment?

Ladydawnelle

well with dna now as almost irrefutable evidence for things such as murder, rape, high roller types of thefts it should be easy to catch and hold the real threatening punks and in the case of murder (heinous types) now with dna I am all for execution of the p.o.s. evil that spends the better part of it’s life living pretty well considering in a federal penn

waste of earth, air and sky when there is such good evidence now days

in the past I was not so for it as many mistakes were made

now – however – I’m not so worried

also the lower level criminal types should be released with some type of bracelet or ankle bracelet they should wear to be monitored for a time and if they behave – their freedom is given back

we could do a lot technologically if we really wanted to.. my x liberal friends never liked my stance on the death penalty

Ferd Berfle

well with dna now as almost irrefutable evidence for things such as murder, rape, high roller types of thefts it should be easy to catch and hold the real threatening punks and in the case of murder (heinous types) now with dna I am all for execution of the p.o.s. evil that spends the better part of it’s life living pretty well considering in a federal penn

I agree up to the point where I, as a chemist, understand that mistakes can be made in a laboratory and are made–daily. All this “irrefutable” evidence needs to be taken with a monumental grain of salt. The data are only as good as those who are performing the analysis and as reliable as the care given in such an analysis. Do not forget the human element when evaluating such proof, otherwise, we’ll be right back at square one, reinventing the stick, yet again.

Ferd Berfle

I should add that I have been employed as a technical evaluator and validator of subcontractor laboratory data for the past 20 years. In those years, I have yet to find what amounts to a pristine set of data, if that doesn’t give you any pause to reflect on the nature of laboratory analysis, then nothing ever will.

Ladydawnelle

Ferd (ya know I luv ya)

but are you trying to spin me? So if the doctor comes back with my DNC results and tell me that SO AND SO is my FATHER I am NOW to trust it with a “grain of salt”

??? really?????

now THAT gives me pause

good evidence is STILL good evidence

Ladydawnelle

now I’m lmao I meant DNA not DN(friggen) C (blech)

lol

dna changes EVERYthing

oowawa

Yep Ladydawnelle, the doctor came back with your DNC results, and they show conclusively that you’re still really angry with them, and it’s raising your blood pressure . . .

Ladydawnelle

u got that right!

Ferd Berfle

All I said is that tests are not infallible nor are the persons performing said testing. There is no such thing as 100% certainty, as evidenced by the use of statistics when making results known, e.g., one out of X chance a test is incorrect (and even that assumes the test was performed correctly with the correct sample, etc.)

Clara

Very interesting topic, Pat. It comes on the heels of Sen. Jim Webb’s Criminal Justice Reform efforts. News of his call for the study and overhaul of the criminal justice system can be found here http://webb.senate.gov/email/criminaljusticereform.html. Webb has made this a major focus since he first campaigned for the Senate seat in 2006. After tackling a very politically untouchable topic, he’s getting a lot of interest and support. Pat, your toon and story is uncannily coincidental!
xax

I you are in possession of a small amount of drugs, ie the end user I don’t think it’s worth the time. That would help ALOT!!

How this quote:

Over half of the inmates in our jails and prisons have mental health problems.

I just don’t believe that. I think it’s easier for some people to cop a crazy plea in order to get less time. Also we live in a society where if a 6 yr old child isn’t sitting down, or isn’t coloring with the right crayon then they must have some type of mental problem. (I’ve had a teacher say that because the child was told to color the circle yellow but used pink, and because it looks like she’s skipping lopsided that means she needs to be tested for mental deficiencies. And then you say “She’s 5, her favorite color is pink and maybe you need to get your eyes checked”)

It’s much easier to drug a person then recognize and deal with the problem. I feel if we can pull money out of our butts to do all this spending, then we can build some more prisons. I can bring down costs. How? No TV, no gym, make the rooms smaller thereby fitting more people into one prison, bring back manual labor breaking rocks in a quarry, remove any other frivolous BS program that makes life comfortable. (I’ll allow books and classes.)

I don’t know how I feel about three strikes you’re out. I recognize the problems. But, frankly, there needs to be a limit on how much society is going to take. Most criminals think the system is a joke anyway. So they feel free to continue to commit crimes because they see no real punishment. Well if you’re doing 20 yrs cause you got caught being stupid and stealing again (after the first 5 times), I think that you learn your lesson, right?
Heather

I was thinking this morning we why don’t we just jail everyone at birth. It would save time and judicial resources. Or use fences like in the move District B13. I love that movie.

TeakWoodKite

everyone is jail everyone at birth.

A Buddhist would accept this as fact.
lark

Wouldn’t it be much more easier to re-institute prayer in schools and teach morals as a requirement from God’s point of view.

Docelder

But government sponsored worship of any kind will evolve into a worship of the state itself.

lark

True. Difficult line to walk. But how do you empower and facilitate “mama teaching their children how to behave… according to God’s better judgment?”

“Mama teaches her children to behave.”

“Papa teaches his children to behave.”

School teaches mama’s and papa’s to teach children to behave.

VinceP

The Founders warned about rampant lawlessness:

James Madison

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

Daniel Webster

“There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our overthrow. Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from anothe quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence. I must confess that I do apprehend some danger. I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men and become the instruments of their own undoing.”

“Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail, there will be anarchy throughout the world.”

“If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instruction and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity.”

“If religious books are not widely circulated among the masses in this country, I do not know what is going to become of us as a nation. If truth be not diffused, error will be; If God and His Word are not known and received, the devil and his works will gain the ascendancy, If the evangelical volume does not reach every hamlet, the pages of a corrupt and licentious literature will; If the power of the Gospel is not felt throughout the length and breadth of the land, anarchy and misrule, degradation and misery, corruption and darkness will reign without mitigation or end.”

Noah Webster:

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed….No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

“When you become entitled to exercise the right of voting for public officers, let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God. The preservation of a republican government depends on the faithful discharge of this duty;

“If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made not for the public good so much as for the selfish or local purposes;

“Corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizens will be violated or disregarded.

“If a republican government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws.”

“Corruption of morals is rapid enough in any country without a bounty from government. And…the Chief Magistrate of the United States should be the last man to accelerate its progress.”

These quotes, which I cite ever more increasingly over the years, are more about government than crime, however, I think they’re applicable herte.

This isn’t a call for theocracy, but a realization and recognition that our Founders explicitly were of the view that American liberty was predicated on a moral and self-restraining population (with a secular government)

Religiosity is condemned nowadays, why be surprised that there are more criminals to lock up?

Hg

Yeah. Criminals breeding criminals. And just think, 99.99% were/are home schooled in the art of thuggery.

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NomNomNom

We have 6 billion people on this planet. Take the drug traffickers and shoot them. Add the doctors who like to addict old people to every legal drug under the sun while you’re at it.
Our government becomes more of a fascist state every day the solution is not to become drug addicted drones.

http://www.HomeStudioEssentials.com A-Nony-Mouse

Holy crap. The insanity of your comment is mind blowing. You complain about a “fascist state” while simultaneously advocating that the government indiscriminately kill anyone who does something that in many Americans view should be entirely legal. Wow. It’s hard to get more off base than that. Anti-Drug laws are a large part of what makes this country fascist.

And as far as being “drug addicted drones” – give me a break. Most of the drones I see are those in the “just say no” crowd. These are folks who have no logical reasoning ability. Folks who take what has been told to them as the gospel without actually doing their own research.

Again, you couldn’t possibly be more wrong.

lark

And as far as being “drug addicted drones” – give me a break. Most of the drones I see are those in the “just say no” crowd. These are folks who have no logical reasoning ability. Folks who take what has been told to them as the gospel without actually doing their own research.

Is that hate?
NomNomNom

Holy crap yourself, mousie, I don’t have any desire to live in a country run by drug cartels. Drugs are legal in many places and are still controlled by organized crime.
As far as I’m concerned our medical system pushing drugs on people while simultaneously making it impossible to acquire real health care is already a cartel; they just don’t point a gun at my head. I sure don’t need one that does.
We’ve got way too many clowns already in this country who’d rather go inebriate or stone themselves instead of doing something productive.
I spent 2 years walking to work after stoners totalled my freaking car when they broke in to it and found there wasn’t any fancy stereo, money, guns, drugs in it. They’d have still been worthless deadbeats even if drugs were legal.
People like you who want to legalize this sh#rt are dumber than dirt. Bite me.

NomNomNom

lol, lousy typist here, “sh#t”

http://www.HomeStudioEssentials.com A-Nony-Mouse

It’s way past the time for legalizing not only marijuana but all drugs. The idea that someone should go to prison for what they do with their own personal lives in that way is ridiculous in what is supposed to be a free society.

All so called “vice crimes” should be taken off the books. Immediately.
lark

I say just build many many more prisons with larger cells with TVs. Increase sentencing periods, keep people in prison for longer periods and make prisons safe for everyone. Anyone who violates the laws should be punished severely for their acts.
carros

The problem with legalizing drugs is there will still be a black market. Just as there still is moonshine and black market cigarettes. Unless someone looks at the root of why people use drugs and solves that, it’s an unending war. Even if drugs are made legal, people are still going to abuse them. It’s their form of escape until the addiction takes over and their body physically needs the drug to function. Perhaps if there were more drug education classes and rehabilitation programs – not the thirty day ones where you get out and go right back to the same routine/environment – this would help fight the drug problem in America.

This is also a result of the breakdown of the family. I’m not just talking about mom and dad getting divorced, but a lot of kids right now don’t have anyone to talk to or rely on. Parents/Guardians rely too much on government run schools to raise their children and take care of them. Same thing with adults as well. Ultimately it is your own decision to take that extra pain pill, first puff of a cigarette, drink of alcohol, or light up a crack/meth pipe…and live with those consequences.
http://www.protectionfromidentitytheft.org carros

The problem with legalizing drugs is there will still be a black market. Just as there still is moonshine and black market cigarettes. Unless someone looks at the root of why people use drugs and solves that, it’s an unending war. Even if drugs are made legal, people are still going to abuse them. It’s their form of escape until the addiction takes over and their body physically needs the drug to function. Perhaps if there were more drug education classes and rehabilitation programs – not the thirty day ones where you get out and go right back to the same routine/environment – this would help fight the drug problem in America.

This is also a result of the breakdown of the family. I’m not just talking about mom and dad getting divorced, but a lot of kids right now don’t have anyone to talk to or rely on. Parents/Guardians rely too much on government run schools to raise their children and take care of them. Same thing with adults as well. Ultimately it is your own decision to take that extra pain pill, first puff of a cigarette, drink of alcohol, or light up a crack/meth pipe…and live with those consequences.
BTW I love your blog!

Ferd Berfle

We’ve tried the war against drugs, tried treatment, tried incarceration, and tried confiscation of property–all to no avail. What we get for all this nonsense is over-crowded jails, a bloated bureaucracy, violence run amuck, and a failing nation to our south. It just doesn’t get any worse than this. Since this policy is a complete failure, it is time to try something else. Our current approach is insanity–doing the same thing over and over again with the expectation of a different result.

Seattle Moss

Maybe we should just try Liberty instead…

Ferd Berfle

If by “liberty” you mean legalization, since what a person does with their own body is not the business of someone else, then I concur. Liberty also includes the right to be left alone. Frankly, I don’t need anyone telling me what I can or cannot do with my own physical personage. Most of those who meddle in the affairs of others can’t even control their own lives and really have no business trying to control those of others.

Seattle Moss

Ferd,
On this issue I’m with you 100%

Docelder

Same here guys, I have a daddy and the government isn’t him.
Ferd Berfle

Agreed. This issue boils down to elementary concepts of what it means to be free. I suppose that really makes me a libertarian. So be it.

TeakWoodKite

Not that I disagree Ferd, but by the same token should I then be required to pay for the choices an individual makes that end up impacting scares social services that society pay for?

Or is that too black and white?

Ferd Berfle

Not that I disagree Ferd, but by the same token should I then be required to pay for the choices an individual makes that end up impacting scares social services that society pay for?

No you shouldn’t have to pay for those choices. When I say that drugs should be legalized, I am saying that because the current policy is a failure and an anathema to a society that considers itself free. That being said, people who get mixed up in drugs are responsible for their own treatment.

Seattle Moss

Here is the balance

Instead of incarcerating those that are dealing drugs we punish those that fail to act responsibly in the pursuit of their liberty.

Ferd Berfle

Now there’s an idea–very good, Seattle. So long as they break no other laws, leave them alone. This is as it should be.

TeakWoodKite

I have this question of individual freedom vs. society / civil order.

As a practical reality there is a balance or anarchy of one kind or another sets in.

It is an on going debate between my own ears as to where the balance is.

Ferd Berfle

I agree with you–these are difficult problems involving difficult concepts with even more difficult solutions. The problem is that politicians of all stripes seem to ignore the nuances and difficulties and give us a one-size-fits-all approach to any problem. Analysis? They don’t need no stinking analysis. They justify their paychecks by giving us a steaming pile of manure, which they call a law and then pat themselves on the back for having pulled another fast one on us. And a lot of Americans just go along with it thinking, “voila”, problem solved. Not on this plane of reality.
Seattle Moss

As a practical reality there is a balance or anarchy of one kind or another sets in.

One man’s anarchy maybe another man’s peace.

I consider driving in certain drug infested neighborhoods with street thugs and drive by’s to be the anarchy which is fueled by the never ending hopelessness of those sentenced to a life of crime because of their felony convictions.

Let’s quit thinking we’re above nature and embrace it realizing that we are but fragile creatures like all others just trying to get by with a little happiness to go along.

TeakWoodKite

Your point leads right back to Pats post.

One man’s anarchy maybe another man’s peace…

Why have laws? By what right, if one follows your logic does the state have to imprison anyone?

What is is illegal in one state is legal in another….

I wish you much peace SM, nature is calling me on this Friday afternoon.

Katmoon

I had to attempt this subject this semester for Criminal Law,; in my research I found it was at one time required by law to grow certain plants, i.e. hemp and cannabis. I can only imagine (because I would have to wait to be in “serious” need for my RA) how much better my quality of life would be if I were allowed to self treat with cannabis for my disease instead of the methotrexate…I don’t risk it because a prison sentence when one cannot move their feet and hands would be how shall we say, a bit rough. Yes, I can only imagine. My next step is to fill the Humera prescription, but I won’t; this is only when I am getting ready to go to a wheelchair. In the interim, I am still taking the methotrexate, and a test drug…why not, it won’t get any worse. Why not allow people to have access to naturally occurring plants that do help us? The next thing you may have to worry over becoming illegal are willow trees and foxglove; but I am being ridiculous, and so are some of the laws over what is and is not an illegal substance, its use to be dictated by a government that doesn’t even know what is in its own budget. I am a better keeper of myself, than they could ever be.

Seattle Moss

how much better my quality of life would be if I were allowed to self treat with cannabis for my disease instead of the methotrexate…

How wonderful life would be if we can grow our own medicine and maybe even help others.

I know that the greatest weapon against future wars is Cannabis.
We may be closer than we think!

oowawa

I know that the greatest weapon against future wars is Cannabis.

Well, that’s what we believed at one time (of course, there was also nuclear weaponry in our arsenal–LSD). (Now I’ll sound like Sophia on the Golden Girls reminiscing about Sicily)

Picture it: it was the Summer of Love, 1967. I just got out of the service. We had a little baywindow apartment right off of Haight Street. The sweet smells of pachouli oil and pot were everywhere. In order to get into the apartment, we had to step over sleeping bodies. Inside the apartment–more sleeping or stoned bodies. Didn’t even know who they were. Love was in the air.

And then methedrine moved into the Haight and it all ended, and the war dragged on. And then we got old and there were more wars and Obama was elected President. The End.

Katmoon

There would be an increase in picnics, bbq’s and shared meals no doubt!
Seattle Moss

Folks

I believe Bill Clinton when he said that he tried weed but he didn’t inhale…Why?

In college I knew a genius who just wanted to fit in with the rest of us normal types. He wanted to be like me the popular guy. The one that had the parties. The one that could drag himself into class after an all nighter and ace a test.
So I took this poindexter to a party. He was ready to be like the rest of us…Until he took his first puff and coughed his brains up. This guy could not inhale!
Interesting point about people that don’t inhale…They usually go on to become Presidents!
Denise

Well drawn, well said! Thanks, Pat.
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