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Far out! So the far-right lunatics weren’t completely crazy?

HANG ON HERE! Are you telling me that those rightwing crazies were NOT completely out of their minds for wringing their hands, renting their garments, and loudly protesting an end-of-life provision in Obama’s health plan? This news story is in The Hill, an altogether sober publication, and featured at the top of the page at Memeorandum. I was so stunned that I took a screenshot of Memeorandum’s page:

endoflife-memo-s

Can one of you get word to Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews and Rachel Maddow?

What are the odds that this story will be above the fold on A1 of tomorrow’s edition of The New York Times?

Yeah, I agree. There’s NO chance.

So, while we wait for hell to freeze over in the New York Times building, take a look at this photo that appeared with a page A1 story — “Nearly 3,000 show up for health-care forum in Everett” — published in Thursday’s Seattle Times:

Nearly 3,000 people attended Rep. Rick Larsen's town-hall meeting on health care Wednesday at Everett Memorial Stadium.

Nearly 3,000 people attended Rep. Rick Larsen's town-hall meeting on health care Wednesday at Everett Memorial Stadium.

  • Patrick Henry

    Thats the OTHER WASHINTON…

    The One with CLEAN AIR..

  • Patrick Henry

    WASHINGTON..

    • Patrick Henry

      Breaking News..

      Since we Have not seen much of our rather Shy and recluse newly SELECTED President..He just came out of Seclusion..(with his Family)…Got His old Gas Guzzler out of the hanger and flew to Montana..for a Nice town hall Meeting to explain all this to us..

      There will be a Public Picnic afterwards that will Include Fresh Veggies from Michelles Victory Garden..

      Obama will then set an example for good health by Walking his Dog all the way back to Washington D.C.
      while He Meditates on the true Meaning of Life..

      And Public service..

  • MBC

    Reports in from Sen. Specter’s Town Hall Meeting in Kittanning, PA. Two busloads of ACORN were bussed in and several SEIU members in attendance. Democrats were sent an e-mail telling them to show up 2 hours early and where to meet. People who are not supportive of the ram-rod inexplicable bill said they managed to drown out the rehearsed chanting of “Yes we can”. Still waiting for more details…..

    • Seattle Moss

      Just saw that too MBC,
      Exactly what happened at my caucus!

    • Diana L. C.

      But were those ACORN ringers dressed poorly so their attendance at the event didn’t appear to be organized by insurance companies?

      Oh, I forgot; they were ACORN people so they were probably dressed like thugs.

    • Ginger

      Just like during the primaries when the homeless were bussed in for rallies.

  • Peggy Sue

    I read the story about the end-of-life provision right before dinner, Bronwyn. The Far Left is hopping mad because they feel the Dems have caved to Republican demands. I think it’s clear indication that the Dems know they’re in trouble with this bill. Frankly, I think the Left should be more concerned that Obama caved to the Pharma industry.

    And Wow–that crowd in Washington.

    Thank God they didn’t get this monstrosity passed before the recess. What a frigging disaster.

    • Jack

      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/magazine/03Obama-t.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

      Scroll down to section “V” on health care.

      The panel, in O’s own words.

      don’t miss reading it.

      • Animal Control

        The interviewer used the description “people” Obama uses “consumer”.
        Funny I never saw the word “consumer” in the Constitution. He’ll try to change that also.

        • tzada

          It is dehuminization. Was I the only one who was disturbed by the chanting, the mindlessness, dehuminization of the Chinese ceromonies during the Olympics?

  • Bronwyn’s Harbor

    P.S. I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek when I wrote the first paragraph. (I’m just adding this in case anyone thinks I was serious.)

    • tzada

      Did you see where it is front and center on the Drudge Report in red. We all need to support as much as we can conservative bloggs and news reporting.

  • AdrianS

    So the Finance Committee will drop the “end-of-life” clauses from the “reform”. I’ll wait to celebrate when the whole damn Obamacare plan is dropped or dies a quick death.

    One good thing though, there is so much crud in the Obamacare plan that it still has a great majority of U.S. citizens red hot mad against it.

    Let’s just say I’d like to see someone counsel with Obama on his end-of-term (now) mandate.

    • proud mobster

      This reminds me of the selling of a used car. The salesman sees we are walking away so he says WAIT I’ll take another $100.00 off. I would like this entire bill trashed then if they want a Healthcare bill let them hold hearings for a couple of weeks so we all have an idea what’s in any bill they propose. When a Political Guy like Axelrod says we are taking a poison pill out of the bill I have to wonder where the Health Secretary was and why she couldn’t comment. What a disaster this administration is.

  • arky

    Hold on a minute. What exactly does the provision say? Does it require end-of-life counselling or just provide it as a service?
    I worked with the elderly in nursing homes for quite a few years and some of the residents and/or family requested that(ever heard of hospice?).
    Stop and think before getting in an uproar. More facts are needed as to the actual language of the provision.

    • goldengrahme

      Oh, yes, I have heard of hospice. Now let me give you a follow-up…

      http://www.hospicepatients.org/euth-center.html

      That link will take you to Hospice Patients Alliance organized by a male nurse who saw the abuses of the hospice mission and modern medicine and decided to go public.

      Read and weep.

      • tzada

        Oh yes, the local one is now under new management. Patients who were once bathed everyday will now be bathed every 8 days. Staff has been drasticly reduced as well.

    • trixta

      Dr’s should not be in the business of “counseling” or nudging patients toward such legal matters as end of life directives or wills, etc. — nor should they get paid for such “counseling.” To give financial rewards to DRs to have such a “conversation” with any patient is a conflict of interest of the highest order.

      • karn9h

        this is fearmongering. doctors are an essential *PART* of end-of-life counseling. there are medical as well as legal decisions to be made.

        • Jules

          I think telling someone their options is fine and to be encouraged. But the reason for telling them should be so that they can decide for themselves what is right for them. It’s none of the government’s business.

    • Bronwyn’s Harbor

      Read the article at The Hill. It’s very, very clear that physicians would be rewarded monetarily for getting their patients to talk about end-of-life planning.

      The presence of financial incentives tells me that the authors very much want to push the concept of rationing care for the elderly as a way to save money to pay for the massive costs of implementing this new health care system.

      • Patience

        Yes. Paying doctors for counseling of this sort is worrisome. In my experience with my mother’s final illness a few years ago, the doctor as a matter of course spelled out her condition and the prognosis of her treatment options. The hospital social worker (who was absolutely fabulous) was the one who gave me details about hospice care. It’s much less intimidating to have someone like a social worker to talk to about this sort of thing.

        Plus I think there’s something else in the current healthcare proposal about rating doctors as far as what their financial track record is for end of life care they provide. If I’ve understood this correctly and it is indeed the case, this is yet another feature that may be of concern. While I can certainly understand the need to make sure doctors aren’t piling on unnecessarily, a feature like this has the potential of unduly influencing doctors’ judgements. Maybe someone else here knows the specifics and can chime in.

        • karn9h

          doctors aren’t going to give it out for free outside of a specific prognosis. the social worker can’t give medical advice.

          • Peggy Sue

            That’s absolutely false, karn. Doctors give advice out all the time and end-of-life conversations happen rountinely between attending physicians and patients and family members. No one’s disputing that these conversations aren’t a good thing because the more information we have, the better we can come to an informed but difficult decision.

            But there are few Americans that wish the government to step between them and their doctor or insist on “mandatory” counseling sessions with “financial incentives.” It’s wrong and downright creepy. And there have been many loyal and public Democrats questioning the wisdom of that idea in the past week alone.

            The Democrats can’t even get the message right and are squandering the best opportunity we’ve had for real reform. And the responsibility for that failure lays at the feet of the Democratic House and the President.

            In case you haven’t noticed there have been a number of loyal, liberal and very public Democrats all asking the same question this week: what the hell is the Party Leadership doing?

            And as a life-long Dem myself? I’m furious.

            • Animal Control

              Ditto!

      • Peggy Sue

        I read that line in the Hill article. The whole idea is prepostrous. Financial incentives?

        This is the sort of thing we need to be very, very alert about. I asked my mother’s attending physician for his advice when it came to hip surgery, much like the story Obama offered about his grandmother. Whether it was “cost effective” never entered the conversation. Nor should it. Ever.

        You can’t tell me there aren’t other ways to save money without basing them on the backs of the elderly, the chronically ill or the disabled. Because if that’s the case, we’ve truly lost our souls!

    • creeper

      According to Chuck Grassley, the intent was to make end of life counseling available on a voluntary basis but the wording was such that it could have been interpreted to make EOL counseling mandatory.

      That’s just what older folks need…a bunch of people yammering at them that it’s time for them to get out of the way.

      What chance would Stephen Hawking have under this monstrosity of a health-care plan? He’s sixty-seven years old and severely handicapped. How many resources should we “waste” on him?

      • Peggy Sue

        “According to Chuck Grassley, the intent was to make end of life counseling available on a voluntary basis but the wording was such that it could have been interpreted to make EOL counseling mandatory.”

        And that’s a good point, creeper. It’s the rule of unintended consequences that disturbs most people. And it’s also the reason that something as important as health care reform needs to be well thought out, analyzed from all angles and carefully worded.

        But, of course, you cannot rush and be expected to get the job done without making stupid mistakes. Might be fine for a signing ceremony, but not on something this critical to the public’s future welfare.

  • CodaCuda

    Some of the credit should go to Gov. Palin on this.

    • pm317

      As a libertarian and refugee from the authoritarian Roman Catholic church of my youth, I simply do not understand the drift of my party toward a soulless collectivism. This is in fact what Sarah Palin hit on in her shocking image of a “death panel” under Obamacare that would make irrevocable decisions about the disabled and elderly. When I first saw that phrase, headlined on the Drudge Report, I burst out laughing. It seemed so over the top! But on reflection, I realized that Palin’s shrewdly timed metaphor spoke directly to the electorate’s unease with the prospect of shadowy, unelected government figures controlling our lives. A death panel not only has the power of life and death but is itself a symptom of a Kafkaesque brave new world where authority has become remote, arbitrary and spectral. And as in the Spanish Inquisition, dissidence is heresy, persecuted and punished.

      From Paglia’s article.

      http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/08/12/town_halls/

    • yttik

      Palin really is amazing. She types a few sentences on her facebook page and the whole country takes notice. Even the white house freaked out. It cracks me up! For somebody they allege is too stupid to walk and chew bubblegum she sure has incredible power.

      Doesn’t say much for Dem leadership if she’s the one controlling the message. LOL, by the way, WTH is the message anyway?? That would be the first step, figure out what you’re selling and than clue the rest of us in on the secret.

      • karn9h

        i’ll agree with your last part. the Dem leadership is getting their asses handed to them, message-wise. no doubt about it.

    • Chicago

      you got that right.

      I’d like to see Obama declare that the democrats acted “stupidly” by including death panels to his HellCare bill and invite Sarah and Todd to the white house for a beer session.

      LOL!

      • slim

        too funny!

    • tzada

      Agreed.

    • I’m a Linda too

      Troubling Questions Remain About Obama’s Health Care PlanShare
      Yesterday at 11:11pm
      I join millions of Americans in expressing appreciation for the Senate Finance Committee’s decision to remove the provision in the pending health care bill that authorizes end-of-life consultations (Section 1233 of HR 3200). It’s gratifying that the voice of the people is getting through to Congress; however, that provision was not the only disturbing detail in this legislation; it was just one of the more obvious ones.

    • karn9h

      For a contrary perspective:

      However, on April 16th 2008, then Gov. Sarah Palin endorsed some of the same end of life counseling she now decries as a form of euthanasia. In a proclamation announcing “Healthcare Decisions Day,” Palin urged public facilities to provide better information about advance directives, and made it clear that it is critical for seniors to be informed of such options:

      Gingrich too. See here.

      • Peggy Sue

        We’re not talking about a Republican misstep on this one. This is squarely in the Democratic tent. And as a Dem myself, am I suppose to feel good about the finger pointing and saying: oh look, the Republicans did it, too?

        If that’s the best the Dems can do, they’ve already lost.

        • karn9h

          wha? i’m saying that while some people here are praising Palin for calling out the death panels, she was, in fact, in favor of just the same thing last year. all she cares about is politics.

          • John

            Hey Karn I have an Idea, If your so pleased with the current plan(s) how about we with start with your grandmother and or grandfather? Sound like a good idea? Yeah? NO!!!

            We should not break a system to help those who find it necessary to purchase a gameboy or XBOX over health insurance, or a $600 a month payment on a mercedes, and a $120 a month I-phone bill with an income of less than $25,000 . Obama wants to level the playing field. I agree with him we should level the playing field, O wait its been level for sometime. Get off your ass go to class and learn, if not learn a trade and learn it well, embrace your own future, thats how you make it in America. I know several people who started out with nothing. Mother father both drunks and violent but decided “I don’t want that”. You want CHANGE start with yourself. ITS CALLED ACCOUNTABILITY. oh its to hard? you need a good solid kick in your ass. Whats that you don’t like the way Im talking to you? To bad.. I find it interesting that their are millions of americans who have found and or are in search of there dreams with hard work and determination.

            Health care may need to be reformed But not this way.

            By the way:
            If anyone messes with my granny, boy I sure hope you can run, cause Im not gonna stop until I get you.

            • karn9h

              Tell it to all the hard-working manufacturing workers who have been laid off.

              • John

                Karn/ – COBRA In the meantime.

                Heres a thought: Get people working FIRST. Give them more money from THEIR PAYCHECKS that they WORKED for, which will promote growth, REDUCE government which can hinder(s) innovation .This will aid our ailing economy.

                Thats what you tell the manufacturing workers out of work…

                Mention this as well

                Go outside your house or go look for one, and look at it. Give it 5 or 15 minutes and ask yourself “Is this what our founding fathers would have wanted”?

                Even on a day without wind that flag still manages to wave. I understood why our founders REFUSED tyranny…

                • John

                  the word flag was meant to be in there

                  Go outside your house or go look for one,AN AMERICAN FLAG and look at it. Give it 5 or 15 minutes and ask yourself “Is this what our founding fathers would have wanted”?

                  • karn9h

                    well, that’s an interesting point. i actually think that a lot of the founding fathers MIGHT agree with you that you’ve got to live and let live (die), look out for yourself, don’t come asking the government for help. i also think that they intentionally wrote the Constitution in a way that permits us to adapt over time. think of the laws and customs of 250 years ago that would seem barbaric, offensive, or just odd today. think of slavery. i don’t see any good reason why we should be constrained by the ideals of the past outside of the Constitution, which is the only (more or less) immutable manifestation of their intent that they left us with.

                  • karn9h

                    grr. i lost a long-ish response to this. the short version is: you might be right about what the founding fathers thought. but i don’t think there is any justification for being guided by the dead hands of our founders OTHER THAN BY THE WORDS OF THE CONSTITUTION. i think the constitution was built to permit us to respond to changing times. it’s been almost 250 years since then. think slavery as an example of a practice/belief/ideal that we have jettisoned.

                    • John

                      Karn

                      ” guided by the dead hands of our founders ”

                      I would rather be guided by hearts of free men than of party of corruption and misguided ideology.

                      “I think the constitution was built to permit us to respond to changing times”

                      I think your right. And in response to the changing times it might be appropriate for you to READ IT.

                      The country could learn a valuable thing from our founding fathers. Its called Freedom.

                • karn9h

                  1. COBRA is government-subsidized health insurance for those in need.

                  2. Realistically, however, COBRA is often too expensive for laid off employees.

                  Clearly we have a difference of principles regarding the responsibilities of government. That’s fair.

                  However, in as much as what you’re saying is predicated on the notion that those who can’t afford healthcare under our current system have only themselves to blame, I would wholeheartedly disagree and say that the facts do not bear this out.

          • to77

            NO BODY IS AGAINST COUNSELING! Not sarah palin, not newt gingrich, not the Republican party. They (we) are against the federal government being the initiator of these conversations as a part of an omnibus health care bill. ESPECIALLY, when one of the primary advisors helping to craft it has this position:

            Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, ‘as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others’ (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).”

            “…communitarianism’ should guide decisions on who gets care. He says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled, not given to those ‘who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens…An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.’ (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. ’96). ”

            If you want to support this kinda thing out of blind loyalty, pure partisanship, mindless ideology, or plain stupidity do what you have to do but there is no reason under the guise of providing health care to 15% of americans who dont have it to make this a part of the bill. Let health workers do what health workers do, they dont need the government involvement to make that happen. Those conversations are happening everyday with out it being “incentivized” by the federal government.

            • karn9h

              it was already “incentivized” by the Republican medicare prescription drug plan of 2003. see here. this is all just silly politics.

              • to77

                Again you don’t address the real issue. Why put it in the bill? It is not necessary and when you take it in conjunction with the writing s of Zeke Emmanuel and Tom Daschalle who lauds the health panels of England that are denying people care to save money it becomes pretty…. concerning. The line in the “Republican” bill you sight is about covering conversations between health care providers and terminally ill patients. That is a very different thing then when someone turns 65 get over there and talk to them about end of life choices and if they take a “turn for the worse” get over there again. If the line simply stated this will cover the cost of conversations between doctors and patients in regards to end of life decisions you wouldnt have a problem. Why when you are 65, why every 5 years, why when they take “a turn for the worse”, why is the conversation between a federal “advocate” and the patient, why advocate conversations with perfectly healthy people who are 65?

                Both Emmanuel and Daschale advocate making decisions based on cost savings, age and social “usefulness” and that is a standard liberal belief. So dont tell me that, that isnt a part of the reasoning behind this bill.

                Again:
                If you want to support this kinda thing out of blind loyalty, pure partisanship, mindless ideology, or plain stupidity do what you have to do but there is no reason under the guise of providing health care to 15% of americans who dont have it to make this a part of the bill.

                • to77

                  correction not “health care” to 15% of americans who don’t have, it health insurance to 15% of americans. By law every american (and illegal alien for that matter) receives health care already if they need it.

                • karn9h

                  Why when you are 65, why every 5 years, why when they take “a turn for the worse”, why is the conversation between a federal “advocate” and the patient, why advocate conversations with perfectly healthy people who are 65?

                  These conditions are the conditions for when it is a covered cost. In other words, they’re not offering to cover end-of-life consultations with 18 year olds, quite sensibly. It says nothing about a mandate.

                  Why put it in this bill? Because it’s a comprehensive healthcare bill (covering the uninsured is only part of it; reducing costs is another). And thinking about end-of-life care before you get there *can* reduce costs. But it doesn’t have to be a scary thing.

                  finally, it’s not a “federal advocate” and you know it. this is the same damn thing as medicare. the government pays your doctor.

                  • to77

                    These conditions are the conditions for when it is a covered cost. In other words, they’re not offering to cover end-of-life consultations with 18 year olds, quite sensibly. It says nothing about a mandate.

                    So if a doctor has a conversation with someone who is 63 who may be in poor health about end of life options they would not get paid for that conversation? It’s not covered?Why would the conversation be covered with a 65 year old who is in perfect health? What if the 18 year old is terminal this bill would make them pay out of pocket for the consultation?

                    That is where you choose to drop logic. The republican bill says, you cover TERMINAL patients regardless of age. If that was what this bill said it wouldnt be an issue but people who advocate medical rationing based on age and usefulness are writing this bill and they are advocating this conversation with people strictly because there old(er).

                    • karn9h

                      look, people die. we know they do. we know that most people die after the age of 65. so we can be prudent and have end-of-life counseling that isn’t deathbed counseling. and we can *also* cover all other terminal patient counseling. these prudent, humane things to do. you’re bungling the whole argument now trying to say both that end-of-life counseling shouldn’t be covered and that all ALL end-of-life counseling should be covered. this is just silly politics.

          • Wisewoman

            Karn9h. Liar liar pants on fire. Palin did not “endorse death panels” or anything of the sort. She endorsed the idea openly that families, clergy, and doctors should discuss these issues (e.g. living wills) but not in a mandatory manner or with financial incentitives to do so. She encouraged it on some type of Health Day. You people always have to be just like Obama dishonest. Stop drinking the spiked koolaid.

            • karn9h

              the point is: she has previously recognized the value in encouraging end-of-life counseling. but many may not be able to afford it. so the proposed provision would help cover that cost.

  • goldengrahme

    Me and many concerned citizens have been posting sourced, page-numbered dissections of the proposed
    health care bill online all week. The level of
    distortion by the Obama crowd is breathtaking.

    The above quote from ‘The Hill’ shows in bas relief
    how devious are the bill’s framers, now backpeddling
    and running for cover. Chortling MSM luminaries
    only underscore the yawning breach in the compact
    between government and the people. They have chosen
    to side with the Beltway groupies and K Street
    lobbyists.

    D.C. is completely out of touch with reality. They
    resemble a royal court that has severed a reason
    to be–the precursor of revolution.

  • jwrjr

    I saw the quality of Hospice “care” in the last days of my mother’s life. If anyone from Hospice shows up in my house they will be the ones needing “Hospice” “care”.

    • Karma

      Same here.

      I have seen the quality of hospice counseling also.

      Let’s just say, when her sisters came by to talk and resolve some issues, my mother didn’t invite the hospice people again.

  • I’m a Linda too

    If you build it, they will come.

    If you limit it to a couple hundred supporters, they who came will be pissed!

    Yes, funny that something that doesn’t exist is going to be pulled. But, sadly, there is just way too much in this bill that makes it crap.

    And here’s a little more of it.

    Leaked memo shows Obama deal with Big Pharma in secret closed door meetings.

    The memo, which according to a knowledgeable health care lobbyist was prepared by a person directly involved in the negotiations, lists exactly what the White House gave up, and what it got in return.

    It says the White House agreed to oppose any congressional efforts to use the government’s leverage to bargain for lower drug prices or import drugs from Canada — and also agreed not to pursue Medicare rebates or shift some drugs from Medicare Part B to Medicare Part D, which would cost Big Pharma billions in reduced reimbursements.

    http://tinyurl.com/rb8t8a

  • TeakWoodKite

    Bronwyn’s Harbor, so can I ask why there are mostly white people in the audience? (oops, my bad no disrespect)

    Also why are there only TWO signs visible anywhere in the picture?

    Kinda tells me the infield is astroturf.

    • Jules

      Well, based on the election results, 92% of black people voted for Obama. Therefore, if there aren’t too many blacks in the crowd protesting his ideas, you might understand why.

  • proud mobster

    Three Senate Republicans thought they had gotten the most odious provisions out of the Stimulus Package only to find that Pelosi had added them all back in when the House and Senate Bills were being reconciled.

    • kgirl1028

      Which means with this bill we just need to put a stake thorough it’s heart chop off the head, burn it, scatter the ashes in seven different locations and start over. Please note I am talking about the care bill and not a bout a member of congress. yes they are blood sucking jerk offs but i believe in the sanctity of life whether it’s dead or undead.

      • tzada

        Use garlic on them. Wait! Save that garlic, I heard it is good to fight flu.

        Lets expose congress to sunlight, that may work better. Right now it is free, who knows it may be taxed soon too.

  • Cathy in Ks.

    I have very mixed feelings about “hospice care”. Many years ago when I was a “homemaker” involved in home health care for senior citizens, I saw how “hospice” then a relatively new concept and composed largely of volunteers provided a wonderful service to those who were terminally ill and their families.
    But my experience with first my father and then a few years later my mother in much more recent years has been quite different. My father had a terminal illness and wanted to spend the last months of his life at home. Hospice workers came to my parents’ home and helped to provide care during those last months of his life. Some of the workers seemed to be quite good but others were merely putting in hours for a paycheck. Fortunately for all of my siblings and I, one of my sisters who is an R. N. took a leave of absence from her job and oversaw pain medications given to our father and the care given to our father in the last weeks of his life.
    My mother, on the other hand, was another story. She had for most of her life had depression, was addicted to prescription medications of various sorts for many years and was a nurse herself so she knew how to manipulate the system. My mother voluntarily chose “hospice care” even though she had no terminal illness at the time she chose this care. She was in a nursing home because she refused to get up out of bed at least not very often. She also wanted to be medicated on demand with the drugs of her choice. She was a difficult resident and I think her physician and the nursing home staff accomodated her wishes because she could be very manipulative. I remember, reading on the last day of her life, the stages of dying provided by hospice in her nursing home. I’m certain my mother had read that same pamphlet and memorized parts of it many months before because she was a “textbook” case. My mother who had been suicidal at various times in her life finally ended her life, in my opinion, with “assisted suicide” provided by hospice care.
    Is this where we as a society want to go? There is a “fine line” between alleviating physical pain due to terminal illness and accomodating the wishes of an emotionally ill person, or the wishes of others who do not want to deal with that person.

    • sandi78

      My former husband died in Hospice. I have nothing but extremely high praise for Hospice and the people who work there.

      To my knowledge, entering any kind of Hospice care is not done without a referral from a doctor and those referrals are only given when patients have a terminal diagnosis and have six months or less to live.

      Of course there is literature in Hospice about dying. Nobody who enters Hospice is going to recover, it’s all about how to die in a dignified, pain-free way.

      I find this hysteria about discussing with your doctor how you’d want your life to end ridiculous. Every single one of us is going to die, and the okder you get, the closer that day comes. it is good sense to have a living will. It is good sense to set out for your family exactly how you want things to be done. Medicare does not now reimburse doctors for the time they would spend counseling their patients about this. If we had a single-payer system wherein doctors were salaried this would not even arise, but as doctors are paid by the test, it means that seniors do not necessarily receive the best advice, or any advice, from their doctors.

      Are you all so gullible that you have truly been led to believe that doctors are going to recommend euthenasia to all their older patients? Do you ever stop to think that maybe you are being used by health insurance companies? For goodness sake, stop believing every stupid email that pops up on your computer and think for yourself.

      Whatever the rest of the final bill says, it is a great pity that this will no longer be in it.

      • Animal Control

        it’s all about how to die in a dignified, pain-free way

        Well, why don’t you specify exactly what the above means to you rather than calling everyone else “gullible”.

        Soylent Green anyone?

        • sandi78

          I hope you never suffer from terminal cancer yourself, or watch any of your close relatives die from it. If you had, you would not post such ridiculous things.

          • Animal Control

            Why not respond to a reasonable question. What does what you wrote mean to you or are you here just to “pick the scab” like Obama wants you to?
            Waiting for your next personal attack without answering a reasonable question.
            Remember you are the one that wrote:

            it’s all about how to die in a dignified, pain-free way.

            • sandi78

              You just lost me and my attention when you start accusing me of being an Obama plant.

              I’m sorry that you are unable to understand what I wrote. Try a dictionary.

              Then tell me what you would want to happen if you have a terminal illness, no further treatment is available at any cost and you are racked with constant unbearable pain. You are going to die in days, maybe a couple of weeks at the most because your internal organs are shutting down. So, what would you want to happen to you?

  • glennmcgahee

    The distortions by the media of the people attending these Townhalls is remarkable. Now we hear that everybody questioning this Healthcare bill is racist. Thats the line that will be used from now on. I heard it repeated ad-nauseum on NPR yesterday. Thats all they got. Funny how when Bush’s policies were being protested, nobody really insulted them. I want Healthcare for all myself and hope to support a bill to give us that. But this Administration, along with this Congress has already lost my trust with the bailout, TARP and stimulus. Plus, here we go again with the secret meetings of the President with the healthcare company lobbyists. Is it racist to want there to be transparency as promised? Is it racist to hold an elected President to his word about how he would conduct THE PEOPLE’S BUSINESS if elected? Seems so. The protests and anger are not just about the Healthcare Bill, its about the lying.

    • tzada

      We are being called evil, un American and terrorists too….

    • leslie

      When I was protesting Bush and his war, I was called many nasty names and my life was threatened more than once. One of the differences that I can see is that the MSM didn’t cover the protests. And when they did send reporters, the stories never made the papers or the teevee and radio reports.
      With PhRMA and the insurance industries buying advertising, is it any wonder MSM is there and is distorting the coverage?

      • Jules

        When I was protesting Bush and his war, I was called many nasty names and my life was threatened more than once

        So, did anyone ever say you disagreed with Bush just because he was white? I mean, what other reason could there be, right?

  • tzada

    Strange how something that didn’t exist can be removed. We have been called terrorists. They have laws on the books against terrorists. What can we expect? Up is now down and we are not in the USA anymore.

    Not to change the subject but I would like some imput. Yesterday Google had threatening skies, today it has like barbed wire and maybe a bomb at the top of thier search page. Can anyone figure out what it is? Keep in mind Google invested heavily in Obama.

    • karn9h

      conspiracy theory much?

      • tzada

        Make of it what you will. I simply asked if anyone knew.

        • karn9h

          it’s really not very hard to figure out if you’re inclined to know. but it looks like you’re inclined to think that Google is creating ominous looking graphics for their webpage because of some connection to Obama. i mean, seriously?

    • justme_kc

      haha. do you see UFO’s as well?

      description of the pic on the google home page:
      Probably not even the physics geeks remember much about Hans Christian Ørsted, although Google’s Doodle logo illustrates his key discovery. That is, if you run a current through a wire – in this case, from the battery at the front – then the electricity creates a magnetic field, which will deflect a compass needle.

    • Boxer Mum 06

      There is no spoon.

  • Tom

    Yup..Told you so we are not crazy ! We saw the bill many read the bill but, wait your senators and the rest did not ! Well I am here to say this now.

    Senators-all of those folls who tried to say no we are wrong as they wanted to get this a yes vote.Yup..to late for them in the people voteing for them EVER ! any one republicans or democrats said this is a good bill and stood there and lied to the people of what was in it even if they read it or not.They need to be voted out.and whos to say they are just pretending to take this out.You know the press you know congress-you know that the government wants to get this passed.Is it another way to stop the people from getting this out. I bet…The government wants to take over our lives and control everything. VOTE THOSE SCUMS OUT !

    Stand up for America.Don’t let the government take over our lives and for Bush-Clinton- John Edwards and more said they are for it. and Obama pushing this to get it passed and lying to the people cause he relays on people who have not read this crap bill they don’t know that’s what they relay on as well as ACORN-SEIU- THUGS- AND THE MAIN STREAM MEDIA OF MSN-MSNBC0CNN-ABC CBS TODAY SHOW TO LIE TO THE PEOPLE.People watch the news for the truth and that is not what we got from msn=mcnbc-cnn-abc-cbc today show. We got nothing but a horor show of the media..shut them down. I stopped watching them as of May 31,08. I watch fox news.Glenn Beck. Oh and if you have Gieco or AARP.. cancel them now !!!

    NO GOVERNMENT HEALTH.NO OBAM RANNED HEALTH TAKE OVER.

    HELP FIGHT THE FIGHT.YOU CHILDREN WILL PAY.AND OH,NOW FEMA WANTS TO TAKE YOUR KIDS IN GRUPS AND TALK WITH THEM AS WE HAVE NO CHOICE. STOP FEMA ! STOP THE GOVERNMENT NOW !

    vote all of congress out now.vote any of thos bums out who was or will vote or this death trap.

    Fight for the right of your parents. foght for your parents.you to will be effected and don’t you think you won’t. to much cost will..bye bye folks..

    Do you want your parents to go through this.Do you want your parents not getting the treatment that can save thier lives and live longer even if it’s 3 ,4 ,5 or 6 years you and you perents can have that time ? I do ! and this is wrong.

    FIGHT PEOPLE FIGHT !

  • WMCB

    ROTFLMAO! It appears Axelrod has sent out a new talking point directed at we Clinton fans out here. We just had the following exchange on The Confluence. Enjoy.

    Tommie, on August 14th, 2009 at 10:41 am Said:
    This is an interesting article. Insight from Bill Clinton – Big Doggie! http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/bill-clinton-the-time-is-now/
    Reply

    Marcia, on August 14th, 2009 at 10:42 am Said:
    This is an interesting piece. Insight from Bill Clinton – AKA Big Dog. And delivered in Pittsburgh too!
    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/bill-clinton-the-time-is-now/
    Reply

    wmcb, on August 14th, 2009 at 10:55 am Said:
    I find it very interesting that two strangers show up posting a nearly identical comment to tell us all that “Big Dawg!” just loves him some Obamacare.

    Very interesting indeed.

    Considering that most of that article consists not of quotes from Bill, but “interpretation” of what he said by the author, I’ll withhold judgement. But you know what? PUMA’s, as much as we love our Bill, think for ourselves. And I have no problem telling Big Dawg he’s full of shit if and when he is on occasion.
    Reply

    Masslib, on August 14th, 2009 at 10:57 am Said:
    Oh yeah…Very weird.
    Reply

    wmcb, on August 14th, 2009 at 11:00 am Said:
    That’s what you get for advertising on Craigslist. Axelrod should screen his applicants better. Maybe put “ability not to be obvious” in the job requirements.
    Reply

    bostonboomer, on August 14th, 2009 at 10:59 am Said:
    Hmmm…veeerrrrryyy interesting! But what kind of name is Tommie? Are we being Astroturfed by a kindergarten class? Axelrod must be getting desperate.
    Reply

    • Animal Control

      Nice hat

  • tzada

    Here is another barfable moment brought to us by ABC News

    Fear for Obama’s Safety Grows as Hate Groups Thrive on Racial Backlash

    Experts who track hate groups across the U.S. are growing increasingly concerned over violent rhetoric targeted at President Obama, especially as the debate over health care intensifies and a pattern of threats emerges.

    Watch and see. Call it stagecraft. Remember the phony Roman pillars? Watch for a staged event. Geared towards enraging the black population and gun control. I hope no one falls for this BS

    • tzada

      Notice the well made sign of the gun wearer? hmmmm

    • Obama: Dubya 2 Electric Boogaloo

      What I’d tell ya….once Count Barakula’s approval ratings dropped below 50% the racial shit was going to hit the fan.

    • oowawa

      Watch for a staged event.

      I really hope you’re wrong on this one, tzada. I have a very uneasy feeling. It wouldn’t take much to stage an incident.

  • Patience

    In my experiences with very sick elderly family members, upon hospital admission we were asked if living wills had been executed. If so, we were asked to provide copies. If not, standard living wills could’ve been signed on the spot. No doctors were involved. Same for DNR orders (Do Not Resuscitate).

    In healthcare reform that claims urgency is due in order to cut costs and spending, legislators shouldn’t be surprised that people suspect the motives of provisions of this sort.

  • o

    http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=116979483434

    Troubling Questions Remain About Obama’s Health Care Plan

    I join millions of Americans in expressing appreciation for the Senate Finance Committee’s decision to remove the provision in the pending health care bill that authorizes end-of-life consultations (Section 1233 of HR 3200). It’s gratifying that the voice of the people is getting through to Congress; however, that provision was not the only disturbing detail in this legislation; it was just one of the more obvious ones.

    As I noted in my statement last week, nationalized health care inevitably leads to rationing. There is simply no way to cover everyone and hold down the costs at the same time. The rationing system proposed by one of President Obama’s key health care advisors is particularly disturbing. I’m speaking of the “Complete Lives System” advocated by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of the president’s chief of staff. President Obama has not yet stated any opposition to the “Complete Lives System,” a system which, if enacted, would refuse to allocate medical resources to the elderly, the infirm, and the disabled who have less economic potential. [1] Why the silence from the president on this aspect of his nationalization of health care? Does he agree with the “Complete Lives System”? If not, then why is Dr. Emanuel his policy advisor? What is he advising the president on? I just learned that Dr. Emanuel is now distancing himself from his own work and claiming that his “thinking has evolved” on the question of rationing care to benefit the strong and deny the weak. [2] How convenient that he disavowed his own work only after the nature of his scholarship was revealed to the public at large.

    The president is busy assuring us that we can keep our private insurance plans, but common sense (and basic economics) tells us otherwise. The public option in the Democratic health care plan will crowd out private insurers, and that’s what it’s intended to do. A single payer health care plan has been President Obama’s agenda all along, though he is now claiming otherwise. Don’t take my word for it. Here’s what he said back in 2003:

    “I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care plan…. A single payer health care plan – universal health care plan – that’s what I would like to see.” [3]

    A single-payer health care plan might be what Obama would like to see, but is it what the rest of us would like to see? What does a single payer health care plan look like? We need look no further than other countries who have adopted such a plan. The picture isn’t pretty. [4] The only way they can control costs is to ration care. As I noted in my earlier statement quoting Thomas Sowell, government run health care won’t reduce the price of medical care; it will simply refuse to pay the price. The expensive innovative procedures that people from all over the world come to the United States for will not be available under a government plan that seeks to cover everyone by capping costs.

    Our senior citizens are right to be wary of this health care bill. Medical care at the end of life accounts for 80 percent of all health care. When care is rationed, that is naturally where the cuts will be felt first. The “end-of-life” consultations authorized in Section 1233 of HR 3200 were an obvious and heavy handed attempt at pressuring people to reduce the financial burden on the system by minimizing their own care. Worst still, it actually provided a financial incentive to doctors to initiate these consultations. People are right to point out that such a provision doesn’t sound “purely voluntary.”

    In an article I noted yesterday, Charles Lane wrote:

    “Ideally, the delicate decisions about how to manage life’s end would be made in a setting that is neutral in both appearance and fact. Yes, it’s good to have a doctor’s perspective. But Section 1233 goes beyond facilitating doctor input to preferring it. Indeed, the measure would have an interested party — the government — recruit doctors to sell the elderly on living wills, hospice care and their associated providers, professions and organizations. You don’t have to be a right-wing wacko to question that approach.” [5]

    I agree. Last year, I issued a proclamation for “Healthcare Decisions Day.” [6] The proclamation sought to increase the public’s knowledge about creating living wills and establishing powers of attorney. There was no incentive to choose one option over another. There was certainly no financial incentive for physicians to push anything. In fact, the proclamation explicitly called on medical professionals and lawyers “to volunteer their time and efforts” to provide information to the public.

    Comparing the “Healthcare Decisions Day” proclamation to Section 1233 of HR 3200 is ridiculous. The two are like apples and oranges. The attempt to link the two shows how desperate the proponents of nationalized health care are to shift the debate away from the disturbing details of their bill.

    There is one aspect of this bill which I have not addressed yet, but it’s a very obvious one. It’s the simple fact that we can’t afford it. But don’t take my word for it. Take the word of Doug Elmendorf, the director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office. He told the Senate Budget Committee last month:

    “In the legislation that has been reported we do not see the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount. And on the contrary, the legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health care costs.” [7]

    Dr. Elmendorf went on to note that this health care legislation would increase spending at an unsustainable rate.

    Our nation is already $11.5 trillion in debt. Where will the money come from? Taxes, of course. And will a burdensome new tax help our economy recover? Of course not. The best way to encourage more health care coverage is to foster a strong economy where people can afford to purchase their own coverage if they choose to do so. The current administration’s economic policies have done nothing to help in this regard.

    Health care is without a doubt a complex and contentious issue, but health care reform should be a market oriented solution. There are many ways we can reform the system and lower costs without nationalizing it.

    The economist Arthur Laffer has taken the lead in pushing for a patient-center health care reform policy. He noted in a Wall Street Journal article earlier this month:

    “A patient-centered health-care reform begins with individual ownership of insurance policies and leverages Health Savings Accounts, a low-premium, high-deductible alternative to traditional insurance that includes a tax-advantaged savings account. It allows people to purchase insurance policies across state lines and reduces the number of mandated benefits insurers are required to cover. It reallocates the majority of Medicaid spending into a simple voucher for low-income individuals to purchase their own insurance. And it reduces the cost of medical procedures by reforming tort liability laws.” [8]

    Those are real reforms that we can live with and afford. Once again, I warn my fellow Americans that if we go down the path of nationalized health care, there will be no turning back. We must stop and think or we may find ourselves losing even more of our freedoms.

    - Sarah Palin

    [1] See http://www.scribd.com/doc/18280675/Principles-for-Allocation-of-Scarce-Medical-Interventions
    [2] See http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/14/white-house-adviser-backs-off-rationing/
    [3]See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hsqzSKuC44
    [4] See http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2M0ODk0OTNkZjkwNGM4OGMyYTEwYWY3ODUzMzFiOTc=
    [5] See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/07/AR2009080703043.html
    [6] See http://www.gov.state.ak.us/archive.php?id=1094&type=6
    [7] See http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/cbo-sees-no-federal-cost-savings-in-dem-health-plans.html
    [8] See http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204619004574324361508092006.html

    Sarah Palin

    • Boxer Mum 06

      Thanks for posting this – I can not access Facebook due to a firewall and was curious to read this.

  • tzada

    Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Theory or maybe not so much? Read the following and then you decide.

    Baxter International

    The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses.
    And an official of the World Health Organization’s European operation said the body is closely monitoring the investigation into the events that took place at Baxter International’s research facility in Orth-Donau, Austria.

    http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html

    Wonder who owns stock in Baxter? More of just the Chicago Way?

    Baxter International Inc. (NYSE: BAX), is an American health care company with headquarters in Deerfield, Illinois

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_International

    But there seems to be no repercussions or hard feelings when industry oversteps the boundaries of morality and integrity and enters the arena of obscenity. Because, lo and behold, which company has been chosen to head up efforts, along with WHO, to produce a vaccine against the Mexican swine flu?
    Baxter!11 Despite the fact that ink has barely dried on the investigative reports from their should-be-criminal “mistake” against humanity.
    According to other sources,12 a top scientist for the United Nations, who has examined the outbreak of the deadly Ebola virus in Africa, as well as HIV/AIDS victims, has concluded that the current swine flu virus possesses certain transmission “vectors” that suggest the new strain has been genetically-manufactured as a military biological warfare weapon.
    The UN expert believes that Ebola, HIV/AIDS, and the current A-H1N1 swine flu virus are biological warfare agents.
    In addition, Army criminal investigators are looking into the possibility that disease samples are missing from biolabs at Fort Detrick — the same Army research lab from which the 2001 anthrax strain was released, according to a recent article in the Fredrick News Post.13 In February, the top biodefense lab halted all its research into Ebola, anthrax, plague, and other diseases known as “select agents,” after they discovered virus samples that weren’t listed in its inventory and might have been switched with something else
    Sources with related articles
    Swine flue is extremely convenient for governments that would have very soon have to dispose of billions of dollars of Tamiflu stock, which they bought to counter avian flu, or H5N1. The US government ordered 20 million doses, costing $2 billion, in October, 2005, and around that time the UK government ordered 14.6 million doses. Tamiflu’s manufacturer, Roche, has confirmed that the shelf life of its anti-viral is three years.
    As soon as Homeland Security declared a health emergency, 25 percent — about 12 million doses — of Tamiflu and Relenza treatment courses were released from the nation’s stockpile. However, beware that the declaration also allows unapproved tests and drugs to be administered to children. Many health- and government officials are more than willing to take that chance with your life, and the life of your child. But are you?

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/04/29/Swine-Flu.aspx

    http://vodpod.com/watch/1574621-swine-flu-martial-law-bill-clears-massachusetts-senate

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/swine-flu-attack-likely-a-beta-test.html

    http://www.infowars.com/swine-flu-and-martial-law/

    http://www.infowars.com/swine-flu-is-deadly-mix-of-never-before-seen-viruses/

    http://hubpages.com/hub/Swine-Flu-and-Martial-Law

    http://www.sunjournal.com/node/105339/

    http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2009/08/13/state_asks_volunteers_to_aid_flu_vaccinations/?s_campaign=8315

    WHO has declared this a level 5 pandemic already. We are now at level 5 out of 6.

  • tzada

    PS to my caqught in the spam filter post

    But there seems to be no repercussions or hard feelings when industry oversteps the boundaries of morality and integrity and enters the arena of obscenity. Because, lo and behold, which company has been chosen to head up efforts, along with WHO, to produce a vaccine against the Mexican swine flu?

    It was Baxter International

  • tzada

    This Sunday Fox news, is going to air a very important documentary about Barack Obama, Sunday night at 8:00 PM central / 9 PM Eastern.
    The report will go back to Obama’s earlier days, showing even then his close ties to radical Marxist professors, friends, spiritual advisers, etc. It will also reveal detail his ties to Rev. Wright for 20+ yrs. How he was participating with this man, and not for the reasons he states!
    The report has uncovered more of Obama’s radical past and we will see things that no one in the media is willing to put out there. It will be a segment to remember.
    Mark your calendar and pass this on to everyone you know: Sunday night, 8 PM. CT; 9 PM ET. Democrat or Republican, this report will open your eyes to how YOUR country is being sold down the road to Totalitarian Socialism. If you care about the direction of our country, pass this notice on to everyone you know.

    From an email I got today, from a relative.

  • o

    Debunking the Left’s Latest Talking Point Was Just Too Easy

    I saw a story last night about how Sarah Palin was evil and hypocritical and had advocated for “death panels” as governor of Alaska. Or something. I think there might have been something in there about her killing bunnies and telling little kids the secrets of Santa Claus too. And I had big plans to write a post about it, pointing out the obvious: that it was stupid and inaccurate. But I was sleepy, so I went to bed instead (Sorry, Governor).

    Turns out that my post pointing out the obvious wasn’t needed. Governor Palin had things under control. From her statement last night:

    Last year, I issued a proclamation for “Healthcare Decisions Day.” [6] The proclamation sought to increase the public’s knowledge about creating living wills and establishing powers of attorney. There was no incentive to choose one option over another. There was certainly no financial incentive for physicians to push anything. In fact, the proclamation explicitly called on medical professionals and lawyers “to volunteer their time and efforts” to provide information to the public.

    Comparing the “Healthcare Decisions Day” proclamation to Section 1233 of HR 3200 is ridiculous. The two are like apples and oranges. The attempt to link the two shows how desperate the proponents of nationalized health care are to shift the debate away from the disturbing details of their bill.

    http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=116979483434

    And some other folks were ready to point out the stupidity of the story, as well. Allahpundit at Hot Air:

    If you think it’s hysterical to call the consultations Obama has in mind “death panels,” fine; the Times evidently does, even though its own archives quote The One talking explicitly about a “very difficult democratic conversation” on reducing health-care expenses by providing “independent” guidance to the sick and elderly. But to equate it with Palin’s proclamation is either idiotic or a deliberate smear.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/14/stupid-critics-go-after-palin-for-encouraging-end-of-life-planning-as-governor/

    And from William Jacobson at Legal Insurrection:

    Think Progress, the Democratic policy and media-watch group, has come up with an amazing discovery. Sarah Palin was in favor of voluntary, private counseling so that people could put their end-of-life affairs in order, before she was against government bureaucrats getting involved in a mandatory process as part of health care restructuring cost savings efforts.

    Nothing inconsistent about Palin’s position. It’s private versus public. It’s one thing for individuals to plan their own lives on their own, but quite different when government enforces mandates and gets involved in such decisions as part of an effort to cut health care costs. Remember, keep your laws off my body, or something like that?

    http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2009/08/faux-anti-palin.html

    It’s almost like there’s a theme here. I think it might be that equating the governor’s proclamation with Section 1233 of the ObamaCare bill is stupid

    http://www.conservatives4palin.com/2009/08/debunking-lefts-latest-talking-point.html