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Hey Dude, You’re Fired!

By Pat Racimora on August 21, 2009 at 9:01 AM in Health Care

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Should people who are overweight or who smoke (even if they never do it at work) be fired? Or never hired in the first place? As health care reform heats up, some are saying that those who choose unhealthy lifestyles should be barred from the workplace and also charged more for their health insurance.

In an exceptionally well-crafted piece, David Leonhardt, writing for New York Times Magazine, describes how we rely on health care professionals and pills to keep us healthy when, in fact, the primary determinants of our physical well-being are the choices we make. We eat bad stuff, we don’t move around, we get stressed out, and somehow life gets in the way of doing anything differently.

Whatever your ailment, a pill or a procedure will fix it. Yet the promise hasn’t been kept. For all the miracles that modern medicine really does perform, it is not the primary determinant of most people’s health. J. Michael McGinnis, a senior scholar at the Institute of Medicine, has estimated that only 10 percent of early deaths are the result of substandard medical care. About 20 percent stem from social and physical environments, and 30 percent from genetics. The biggest contributor, at 40 percent, is behavior.

Smokers are already being fired (and not hired). And it is possible that people who are overweight are already being discriminated against because they, as a group, earn less money than those who are svelte. Questions are even being raised about President Obama’s choice for Surgeon General. Dr. Regina Benjamin, despite her many accomplishments, is, well, full-figured. Does that make her a poor role model, especially given the current national push to curb obesity in our children?

Tony Newman writing for Alternet lays out the moral dilemma:

Like most people, I support campaigns to reduce smoking and obesity. I believe in public education campaigns and policies that offer help to people who are trying to quit smoking or unhealthy eating. Positive incentives like gym membership reimbursements, or cessation aids like the smoking patch or Nicorette gum, can be valuable aids to those who struggle with addiction. But by firing workers for smoking or being overweight — and penalizing them when it comes to their health care — we will be demonizing and marginalizing those to whom we should be reaching out.

Then there is the slippery slope. As Newman continues,

They fired smokers first. Now they are talking about not hiring obese people. Your personal struggle or lifestyle choice may be next!

Think about it. Maybe next will be those who own motorcycles or a gun, or people who drink socially or who like to jump out of planes or parasail or climb mountains. Then maybe those who drive an excessive number of miles, increasing the probability that they will get into an accident. Then maybe….on and on.

What do you think? On the one hand, anything you and I can do to improve our own health is actually helping our country. On the other hand, one of the hallmarks of a free society is our right to make decisions for ourselves, even hazardous ones.

End note: A small, sad irony. Those who smoke are more likely to die from lung cancer. This disease advances aggressively, thus actually contributing to cutting down a little on health care costs.

  • Pingback: Hey Dude, You're Fired! : NO QUARTER | Finally! Be free from smoking

  • tzada

    Nothing good ever came of a slippery slope unless you are on skis or a sled. What we should be discussing is how to get the Federal Government out of STATES RIGHTS.

    Well written article and lots of work went into it. But it is about Federal Health Care. The Federal Governement is taking control of things they are not intitled to, including what people eat.

    Introducing the Tenth Amendment

    Amendment X

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

    The Tenth Amendment exists and can be effectually pressed into service to prevent all manner of future federal usurpations and power grabs, Cap and Trade, Global Warming initiatives, Stimulus packages, Wall Street bailouts, etc. which we can be sure, are on the way. Studying, appreciating, appealing to, and demanding adherence to the Tenth Amendment is a great place to start. And it can start today.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/introducing_the_tenth_amendmen.html

  • Texas Playwright

    Only question for me is can they do the job? If they can, let them. Smoking does pollute the air all around, so I’m all for smoking outside only, away from the building. Other than that, common sense, people.

  • Arabella Trefoil

    Just screen everybody for genetic traits that make them likely to get illnesses like breast cancer. Take all of those people and either make them pay more for their insurance and give them genetic counseling so that they don’t reproduce.

    Then set an upper limit on how long people can continue to receive health care. Say, 69 years old.

    People can change their behaviors, but not their genes. Also, people will get old and sick, and at this point we need to think about cost benefit.

    • Tammy

      Arabella, I don’t think you go far enough in your eugenics.
      If someone has a “bad gene” they should simply be eliminated. My mentally handicapped brother? Hell, just kill the retard.

      And old people? Just drop ‘em off at a facility and let the old farts die.

      I mean, it’s all for the good of “society” isn’t it?
      “We need to think about cost benefit”.

      Arabella, I hope you’re FIRST in line for that genetic testing. The first thing that they will find out about you is that you don’t have a heart…or soul.

      • Arabella Trefoil

        I have an autistic brother and several close relatives with serious medical problems.

        Here’s the thing: Imagine if Obama talked about cutting off care for an theoretical autistic person or a theoretical 85 year old person because “Yes, it’s a tough choice but we have to do it.” Lots of people in their heart of hearts would say “Yeah, that’s a bad thing to do but Obama says we have to do it so maybe we should …”

        Nobody thinks “He’s talking about my brother. He’s talking about my mother. Shit! He’s talking about me!”

        I see an alarming trend in the media towards justifying “limiting” health care. I am very concerned where all this will lead, especially since the Obama supporters I know think they will never be old or sick. Or they think they live such perfect lifestyles that they will never be denied health care.

        • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

          British Health System Denies Woman Treatment For 7 Years Because “Alzheimer’s Is Not A Health Condition”

          http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275840.html

          • Ellen D

            Hi AGI. I think you did not go far enough through that article.

            NHS Worcestershire ruled that Judith Roe, 74, did not qualify for NHS funding because her condition was a “social” rather than “health” problem, even though she was so ill she could not make a cup of tea and regularly left the stove on. She was forced to sell her £200,000 home to pay her £600-a-week nursing home fees, which would have been funded if she had been categorised correctly. Mrs Roe’s family appealed to the Health Service Ombudsman, which ruled that Mrs Roe’s assessment had been incorrect and her treatment should have been funded by the NHS…

            I think the key point is the last sentence. We don’t have an Ombudsman with Insurance companies here in the U.S. to reverse decisions.
            In fact, in countries with Ombudsmen, the public finds out about denied claims through public disclosure. Here, no one knows how many claims have been turned down by private companies.

            • Solara 9

              This pertains here, but no one talks about it. You have to sell everything and be worth only $2,000, to get public aid for Alzheimers or other kinds of dementia. Medicare pays for 100 days of nursing home care only, but you have to also have the “right” medical problems.

              I read an article that estimated that family members, were they earning minimum wage caretaker pay, give over 300 BILLION dollars worth of care to elderly people who cannot care for themselves.

              There are our unsung saints. My sister who cares for our mother is one of them.

              • Ellen D

                Thanks, Solara 9 for your front line experience.
                This really is something that those seniors at the town halls should be yelling about.

        • Peggy Sue

          Snark or not Arabella, I think you hit an important insight:

          “especially since the Obama supporters I know think they will never be old or sick.”

          Yes, many of Obama’s most ardent supporters are young or in their prime years. Those of us who have lived long enough know that it only takes one unexpected but catastrophic injury or disease to turn that limited view upside down.

          My husband has Type II diabetes [runs in his family], so I guess he’s ready for the junk heap. A friend of mine has a severely disabled son [the result of head trauma suffered within six months of my own son's injury]. My son recovered, hers did not. Too bad, I guess. My in-laws are in their early 80s. Are they productive enough for the good of society? Not any more, but they paid their dues.

          The whole tenor of the conversation should give us serious, serious pause. We’ll be judged as a society by the way we treat the most vulerable among us. Not by how much money we save.

          Can we do both–serve the public’s needs and reduce costs? I think we can. But cutting people away or limiting access all the more was not suppose to be the solution.

          And then, the Obama folks wonder why so many people are upset.

          • Terry

            I just got an email that ABC is refusing to air ads crafted by Dick Morris’s group that expose the problems with care for seniors that are part of the 0-plan. How can they get away with such blatant censorship???

            Dear Friend:

            I have some very shocking news.

            ABC television has banned our TV ad from airing on its network.

            Frankly, I was stunned when I heard the news from our media buyer yesterday.

            Right now, our TV ad exposing Obamacare is running in 12 states.

            You can see this powerful ad by Going Here Now.

            With our success — thanks to your incredible support — we were planning to go national, so we sent the ad to the major networks.

            This TV ad simply tells the truth about Obamacare.

            It was crafted by Dick Morris, the Fox News contributor and famous campaign strategist.

            This powerful ad features a respected medical doctor — a neurosurgeon, in fact — who warns that Obamacare will decimate healthcare for seniors and others in need of life-saving medical procedures.

            As Dr. Cuffe explains in the ad, if Obama gets his way and adds 50 million new patients to the government system, it inevitably will lead to rationing of healthcare procedures and vital medicines for the elderly.

            Dr. Cuffe says universal healthcare has led to this same situation in Canada and England.

            You can see Dr. Cuffe and donate to help air this ad — Go here Now.

            We know why ABC is so afraid of the League’s TV ad. It knows the message resonates with the American people.

            This is the same network that aired an infomercial for the Obama plan directly from the White House.

            Clearly, ABC knows seniors will not be hoodwinked by Obama when they learn the truth.

            Despite ABC’s brazen act of censorship, we need to continue to run this ad on other stations across the nation and on major networks.

            Time is very short, so we really need your help.

            Please Go Here Now to Support This Ad.

            We CAN make a huge difference. The ABC decision proves we are on the right track.

            Please help us today!

          • lorac

            I guess our best hope will be to start making friends with doctors, so if we really need something, maybe she or he will do a little pro bono work for us….

        • momule

          Arabella – The real problem as I see it is that, were we all to be tested for genetic traits, it would be found that we all possess certain “bad” genes. Therefore, theoretically we could all be denied coverage for something or other. In my case I am one of those who are prone to auto immune things. Allergies, polyps, etc. Of course, my alert immune system must also be knocking off some nasty stuff, too!But imagine if this defect is susceptible to something totally beyond anyone’s control, e.g. air pollution, medications, etc, then I (and everyone else with their own personal flaws)can end up with something life threatening quite unpredictably, and through no fault of their own.
          At the advanced age of 68, I work out with my husband at the gym 6 days a week,usually 20 mins on the step climber and sometimes some more on the treadmill, after which comes weight training. I do this for myself because, unless I lose my enjoyment of life,they are going to have to whack me with a stick before I depart. It is heartening to see all the folk with real health problems or those in terrible shape who come and are really trying to improve their quality of life. But they are doing it voluntarily and I believe that is the key. There should be incentives, not punishment, in health care. Our insurance (a Medicare supplementary plan) pays our health club fee. I think that people who are trying to improve their health should be given discounts. Some obesity is genetic, but much is due to hand to mouth disease (to which we are all susceptible). Poor nutrition is another cause,due to lack of knowledge – or money! Buying fresh fruit and veg each day certainly isn’t cheap. Smoking is an addiction (which has been manipulated for decades by the tobacco companies)making it very difficult to kick the habit, especially for women it seems. All methods for quitting including hypnosis should be made available Anyone willing to make the effort to improve their health should be rewarded. They will be doubly rewarded by the way they feel if they stick to their decision. Carrot over stick any day.

          • Pat Racimora

            Momule–I really like your comment.

          • Ellen D

            Buying fresh fruit and veg each day certainly isn’t cheap.

            If you go to major chains, it isn’t cheap, and even some farmers markets, but I go to my local Armenian supermarket and it is fresh, local, and cheaper.
            Try local ethnic supermarkets. The fresh fruit may be smaller and not look like movie props but it is delicious and way cheaper and you will be much healthier.

    • mountainaires

      Arabella Trefoil, I sincerely hope that was snark.

      • Arabella Trefoil

        Yeah, it’s snark.

        But this is the way some people want it to go.

        • Tricia Spiegel

          I agree that the House bill that has been the cause of so much turmoil was worded ambiguously enough for people to reach a conlusion that it would be more difficult to keep those who are very ill alive than to just let them go.

          I don’t think being disruptive at a meeting is helpful (although it IS the only way to catch media attention), but I also think that our wonderful representatives think that we are all morons. If they could sneak something ambiguous enough by, they could execute it however they pleased.

    • sowsear

      I can’t believe you wrote this!
      Tell me when will you be 69? I want to be there to cut your health insurance for you.

      • Arabella Trefoil

        If you are addressing me, allow me to answer you.

        I am 57 years old.

        I was also being sarcastic when I wrote about reducing our health care costs by eliminating insurance for people over 69.

        I regret to say that there are people in the Obama administration (and elsewhere) who are thinking of bold initiatives to make our country more lovely, more fun, more cool and more cost effective.

        Brand Obama is for attractive, creative people.

        Human beings who are fat, old, boring, stupid, retarded, defective, or just inconvenient have no place in the Obama universe. We have already heard what he really thinks about bitter people who cling to guns and religion.

        There are brilliant intellectuals in Obama’s circle of friends and admirers who think that letting babies die in closets, and advising 80 year olds to just die and get out of the way are wonderful ideas.

        Read “The Fixed Period” by Anthony Trollope. The idea of just dying and getting out of the way is great until it’s your turn.

        • Pat Racimora

          The Fixed Period is a great book and available free to read online.

    • don tufts

      but first in line should be anyone that pays over 3 dollars for a cup of cofee especialy the latte drinkers.

    • ExZonie

      I am on dialysis and had chemotherapy last year. I wonder if these Zeke Emanuel types want to come with me to DaVita next Monday and decide who’s thrown off dialysis and who gets to stay on it. I wonder if they have the guts to interview all those dear people and rip the needles out of their arms in the name of saving their beautiful heartless system.

      I have a vegan diet now and exercise, work full time and take care of my family. However my awesome insurance company pays for my expensive dialysis, and I could never make enough to pay for it out of pocket. I take very little medication because my condition is stable. Is there a rule of thumb for someone like me?

      And my two kids, since I have had multiple myeloma, do they get to be fed into the shredder or be sterilized lest they produce children, just in case MM is a genetic failure?

      And I’m to be cut off dialysis at 69 years old… my doctor gave me less than five years to live last year. I guess now I get 13 or less according these demons.

      What is happening to our country????

  • LDW

    This is the American solution to the healthcare crisis? Fire all unhealthy workers, in case they cost the business too much in insurance premiums? OK, so now all Americans will have to pay for idle workers, many with good educations and job skills, just in case they might have an expensive condition needing treatment some years hence. Brilliant!

    America needs universal, single payer healthcare.

    Americans are already paying more than enough for their healthcare: they are just letting the insurance and drug companies loot the programs, and half the money is wasted in obscene executive compensation, much of which moves offshore, and benefits the American economy not a wit.

    • Arabella Trefoil

      I agree with you. It’s the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies who are making insurance expensive.

      As long as Obama is making deals with these robber barons, Americans will continue to suffer.

      I don’t have any figures to cite for you, but I would not be surprised if smoking and obesity were linked to income levels. When I’m in well-to-do areas I see virtually no smokers or overweight people.

      So, lets see who we can cross off the list:

      Old people
      People with “bad” genes
      People with diseases too expensive to treat
      Poor people
      Smokers
      Fat people
      People who don’t floss

      Why not just counsel these people to terminate their lives? Here’s what the new Obama brand America will look like:

      Young koolaid drinkers, vegetarians, fitness freak liberals and rich people. They would be of all races of course, but there would be no disgusting old, fat or sick people to look at. America would look like one of those old Beneton ads.

      • lorac

        They should put meat/dairy eaters on the list. Contributes to those darn strokes, heart attacks, and cancer.

        I would put the kool-aid up on the cross-off list, too, not on the “okay” list. Kool-aid apparently causes pretty fast onset dementia – and that’s gonna cost us big time in the long run. So NO Kool-aid people allowed to be covered! lol

    • Ellen D

      America needs universal, single payer healthcare.

      Yes, yes, yes.

      Only the large companies who self-insure would discriminate in hiring because weight or smoking claims would cost them more.
      Small companies pay the same(high)rate because everyone is covered equally. Hiring a fat person or a smoker only costs you more if you are projecting lost production time because of health issues.

  • mountainaires

    We just elected a smoker to be our president….

    I am aghast, alarmed, appalled at even the idea of banning people from the workplace because they are overweight or smoke. It happens already–some companies are refusing to hire people who smoke, even in their own homes. I believe states are passing laws prohibiting parents from smoking in their own cars if their children are present.

    If we are free in this country, why is there a law prohibiting people from smoking in their own home, or their own car? The president smokes; but ordinary americans are not given such freedoms, is that it?

    The best course of action is education on the health benefits of not smoking and getting good nutrition and regular exercise–not laws discriminating against people with health problems. Smoking is an addiction, no less powerful than drugs like cocaine and heroin.

    Obesity is a huge problem, it causes serious diseases that cost insurance companies their profits. Poor people often have no access to grocery stores that sell fresh fruits and vegetables; if they have access they can’t afford them. And, let’s face it, as a society, we now spend a lot of time sitting in front of computers, whether at work or home! We aren’t an agrarian society anymore, so we have to find alternative ways to get the kind of exercise we need to keep from becoming obese. But, discriminating against people isn’t the answer.

    Why isn’t there a treatment program covered by insurance for nicotine addiction? Why don’t insurance companies focus coverage on prevention of obesity, instead of treatment when it’s a problem?

    • lorac

      California doesn’t allow public smoking anymore, not for awhile. I’m always shocked when I see someone post that people are smoking in an office or a restaurant, and then I remember it’s a state law, not federal. And they don’t allow people to smoke in cars if kids are in them – that law is a year or two old I think. But people can still smoke in their own home. And maybe if they drove out to the middle of the desert lol

  • Astra14

    Some people are obese due to heredity or disease not due to life choice. That would be like discriminating against someone due to gender or color.

    Unfortunately, one group’s perceptions make them try to force their lifestyles and opinions on others. When I lived in New Jersey people complained if their neighbors’ dogs barked and some towns were creating laws re: barking dogs. Now I no longer live in NJ in a more rural community where barking dogs are considered a good thing because they warn that strangers are around. When a dog barks no one calls the police on the dog and the neighbors look out their windows to make sure no one is breaking into their neighbors’ homes or cars.

    The slippery slope is not a good thing because once one thing is attacked, something else someone doesn’t like is next. Say good-bye to freedom at that point!

    • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

      I had a neighbor that had two dogs that were left outside all day and all night. They barked 24/7. The owners were never home. It drove me insane. It was worse in the summer because I had the windows open. I hate dogs that habitually bark. It is a nightmare.

      • Arabella Trefoil

        Those weren’t dogs. They were Obama canvassers. In my experience, they never shut up.

  • LDW

    From ‘The Daily Howler’ – Americans are already spending more than enough money to provide everyone with first rate healthcare. They just aren’t spending it wisely.

    “(Lou Dobbs) Kitty Pilgrim has our report.

    PILGRIM: Universal health care, state of the art technology, complete free choice of doctors and hospitals. In some ways, the health care system of Switzerland looks ideal. Many lawmakers and academics, including Professor Uwe Reinhardt of Princeton, have studied the Swiss system… Everyone in Switzerland has to buy health insurance on their own. And there are about 60 different insurance companies to choose from. Premiums run between six and $7000 a year for a typical family. The government subsidizes lower-income people for their coverage, about one-third of the population.
    …For most people, the real choice in the system is what kind of deductible to select. Deductibles run from $300 all the way up to $2000. Insurance funds with large numbers of chronically ill people are compensated through a risk equalization fund. The price for major procedures are below those in the United States because the government enforces price controls…The Swiss spend 11 percent of GDP on health care versus 16 percent in the U.S. Per capita, that works out to $4417 on health care versus $7290 in the U.S. There is one doctor for every 256 people versus in the United States, one doctor for every 416 people. Life expectancy in Switzerland is 81.7 years versus 78 years in the United States.

    PILGRIM: The Dutch reformed their health care system in 2006 and now every person is required by law to purchase health insurance from one of a dozen or so companies…The Dutch government makes sure that industry is regulated and fair. Professor Alain Enthoven of Stanford offered the managed competition model the Dutch have embraced…(with) standardized coverage contracts so there is no tricky exclusion, no confusion…Though the system is based on private insurers, the government makes certain that no one is refused coverage based on age, gender or pre-existing conditions…6.5 percent of income goes to health insurance in the Netherlands. Those who cannot afford that have their insurance cost subsidized by the government. The government, through an insurance pool, also compensates insurance companies for signing up people with poor health records or pre-existing conditions. All of this costs less than U.S. health care. The Dutch spend $3527 a person on health care, while the U.S. spends $7290. It is 9.8 percent of GDP in the Netherlands versus 16 percent in the U.S. There are considerably more doctors per capita in the Netherlands, one for 256, versus 1 for 416 in the United States. A chief strength is the network of family doctors who are deeply familiar with their patients. The commonwealth fund reports in a recent survey 100 percent of people in the Netherlands have a regular doctor. The ultimate selling point, the average Dutch life expectancy is 80 years versus 78 in the United States.

    PILGRIM Japanese citizens go to the doctor an average of 15 times a year. Insurance covers everyone for everything. After a fractional co-payment, the visits are basically free. Even for the elderly, long-term care in nursing homes, even home care, is covered. The Japanese have a life expectancy of nearly 83 years, compared to 78 in the United States…Japan spends 8.1 percent of GDP on health care, compared to 16 percent of GDP in the United States, total annual spending, $2581 per capita, compared to $7290 in the United States.

    …Spain’s “health care spending per capita is some $2671 compared to $7290 in the United States”…

    ““All of this costs less than U.S. health care?” Where is all our health spending going? Who is looting our system?”

    • lorac

      I think some specifics about our culture are skewing the results. We seem to have the best technology here, we’re always developing new and improved drugs, and if people have insurance, they usually go in for their yearly checkups, breast exams, prostate checks, etc. So there are people here who are able to take preventative care, get regular checkups which help to spot a problem before it gets worse, and then get the best treatment.

      But we also have a large number who don’t have insurance, and so they tend to skip regular checkups and just go to the ER when something has gotten pretty bad already, at which point medicine may be less able to help them. So this group is going to have worse health and morbidity statistics, and I think it pulls down our “scores”.
      And there are a lot of seniors who have to choose between food and medicine because of their fixed income, and not all medicines are on the $4 Walmart list.

      What really speaks loudly to me is how poorly we fare on the number of children who are alive one year after being born. There are SO many countries whose scores are better than ours. I’m guessing this population of children is part of the “no-insurance” group, not getting pre-natal or well-baby care, maybe. It’s kind of a sign of progress, of being an advanced civilization, to be able to have most people born stay alive. But our statistics on this front are shocking.

  • mountainaires

    Turning Uncle Sam into Peeping Tom
    Another target of Obamacare: Americans’ right to financial privacy.

    By Diana Furchtgott-Roth

    August 20, 2009

    Buried in the 1,017 pages of the House Democrats’ health-care bill is a little-noticed provision that for the first time could give the government access to the checking or credit-card information of every American. Under section 163, which is entitled “Administrative Simplification,” the bill sets new “standards” for electronic transactions between individuals and their health-care providers.

    According to section 163, the standards will “enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service . . . ” In addition, they will “enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with related health care payment and remittance advice.”

    What is envisioned is a “machine-readable health plan beneficiary card” that, in addition to information about a person’s medical history, will contain checking-account or credit-card information, so as to allow electronic payments and, if a person is lucky, occasional remittances. Since under the proposed legislation everyone would be required to have health insurance, all Americans would have to provide this information.

    The required collection of such data is unprecedented. At no other time has the government sought to collect this type of financial information from everyone in America.

    [...]

    The idea of wholesale collection of checking-account information by Uncle Sam raises many questions. Who would see it? How would people be protected from theft of their account numbers? Fundamentally, who would control this sensitive information?

    The answer to that last question is that it would not be the person who should control it: the individual to whom it belongs…..

    http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ODg4Y2FkYmFlZmQ4NGJkYjZhZTA2YjZkZTMwN2YzNTg=

    • tango

      And you can bet, it would only be time before the Federal Government would be passing those bank and credit card numbers on to other Federal or state government agencies if it’s deemed beneficial. Behind on your child support? The state could request your information from the Feds and deduct the payment from your bank account. Haven’t paid your student loan payment in 6 months?? The Feds can charge it to your credit card. Oh Joe Smith signed up for government paid health care and had to provide a bank account number in order to get care (no exceptions) and the IRS ran a check and realized he hasn’t paid income taxes in 5 years. Hmmm, audit that man! Wow, he claimed total income of $15,000 last year but his bank deposits for the same year totalled $ 92,000? Wow, where’d he get the money and where’d it go? Audit that man and call the police for a criminal check!

      Not that I necessarily have a problem with any of those end results since someone who is doing wrong could be caught and punished. It’s just that the information collected for one purpose is ultimately used for something totally different and starts a very slippery slope of violating someones rights. You give a person or a group power, they will continue to try to get more power if it serves their purpose. So to assume the government will compile financial records and not use the information to their benefit when it’s advantageous, is naive.

  • Barbara

    Well, if they wish to begin discriminate against unhealthy choices people make that affect their lives and wellness, when will they make such statements against the gay lifestyle. Not only do male gays have immensely huge likelihoods of becoming infected with HIV, but they also suffer from other medical conditions that lead to extreme incontinence and other ailments. There are also documented studies citing higher numbers of mental disorders such as depression in the gay community. All one has to do is look for the information, and it’s there-

    • lorac

      Hmmm… let me guess…. religion, right?

      AIDS isn’t a gay person’s disease. If you really wanted to get technical about its sexual transmission, you could say it’s all the penis’s fault. It’s virtually unheard of woman to woman, but man to woman and man to man – odds go way up. That darn penis. Makes tears in tissue, whether it’s in a woman or a man, and can pass on the disease. We better outlaw that penis.

      As for incontinence, that can result from a certain sexual behavior. If you think only gay men engage in that behavior, you’re mistaken. Oh my gosh – it’s that darn penis again! If Mr. Penis repeatedly engages in this certain behavior, whether with a man or a woman, that recipient (gay or straight, female or male) has increased likelihood of incontinence.

      And those poor depressed gay men – must be the shame of being whom god made them. It’s just a coincidence that they face beatings, death, harassment, ridicule, and a lot of condemnation by….. wait for it….. religious people!!!!! But that couldn’t have anything to do with any depression some might feel….. But they do all have penises…

      So I think you better scratch Mr. Gay Man off of your unhealthy list, and replace it with Mr. Penis.

      hehehe

      • Pat Racimora

        Lorac–LOL! You are a hoot!

        • lorac

          Ha Thanks, Pat – I didn’t get much sleep last night, so my wicked side came out LOL

  • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

    ON one hand I would say employers should be able to hire who they want…but we have all kinds of non-discrimination laws, so I supposed smokers should fall under that category. But, smokers do stink ( i used to smoke, I know. they do, trust me. if you smoke, you stink. the smoke follows you, and your breath and clothes reek. especially coming in from the cold.) If you are in a small office environment, and you have smokers, they can stink up the whole office, and it is especially bothersome to people allergic to smoke. I hate it when people loiter in doorways, and you have to pass through their cloud of smoke to enter. especially in the morning!

    Smoking is bad for you. It can kill you. And a smoke free life is SO much better. Trust me, I know. My uncle just found out he might have to get an oxygen tank… Sexy.

    If people never smoked, they would never miss it. I think they just need to outlaw it.

    But, as for never hiring obese people, it is wrong. Unless they can’t perform their job.

    Don’t smokers and obese people pay more for insurance?

    “Think about it. Maybe next will be those who own motorcycles or a gun, or people who drink socially or who like to jump out of planes or parasail or climb mountains. Then maybe those who drive an excessive number of miles, increasing the probability that they will get into an accident. Then maybe….on and on.”

    You are right about that!

    The only thing with smoking though is that you are not only harming yourself, you are harming those around you, your children and people allergic or sensitive to smoke. And you stink.

    • Solara 9

      I agree AGI,

      Smoking is the pits. Of course, we ex-smokers are the most active when it comes to anti-smoking campaigns! I used to think that if I quit I would be unhappy and lose my creative edge. My little “friend” was helpful–I thought.

      How silly. When I finally beat it (and yes, the smell part was a helpful motivator) I felt better, was far less tired, and did better work.

      Giving it up is a gift to oneself and everyone else around.

      • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

        Isn’t it great!? I wish more smokers would realize how much better life can be without the stinky cancer sticks. No more morning hangovers from smoking too much! No more hacking cough. And I still have my normal voice! And no hole in my throat.

        I heard a doctor, from somewhere like Fred Hutch or something, a leading doctor in cancer research, that smoking is like Russian Roulette. You never know what cigarette it will be, but one of them will give you cancer. It isn’t accumulative over years, it is the trigger. You can get cancer from your very first smoke, or your one millionth.

    • mountainaires

      Yeah, there’s nothing like standing in the store or wherever, and having a smoker walk by right next to you, and you are knocked over by the stench. You think to yourself, wow, if you only knew how bad you smell, you wouldn’t do it.

      But, the thing is, making smoking illegal wouldn’t work any better than prohibition worked. Or any better than making pot illegal has worked. It doesn’t work. And, then, if it’s illegal, governments at all levels wouldn’t be able to raise taxes on booze and cigarettes to pay for other things–like children’s health care for low-income people.

      What a world…

    • lorac

      AGI, I agree about the second hand smoke. But a diet of meat and dairy also hurts others besides the eater. Huge feces pools leaking into groundwater; most of our produce being fed to the animals when that amount of produce would feed many, many more times of people than the resultant slaughtered animals would; the huge amount of water required to raise animals, especially cattle; animals raised on huge dosages of antibiotics which are passed upon eating to people and lower their future ability to have antibiotics work in their own lives (there’s more, but that illustrates the point!).

      I’ve noticed over the years that it’s easy for people to focus on smokers, because they’re only 1/3 of the population, but the harmful effects of meat and dairy aren’t too discussed, because probably 97% (of our country) eat it, and because they have even more powerful lobbies than the tobacco lobby! I imagine it’s easier for the majority to focus on what the minority are doing, and not on what they themelves are doing! lol

      • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

        yes but eating keeps you alive and healthy (if done responsibly).

        Smoking has absolutely no redeeming qualities and kills.

        Stop smoking, live.
        Stop eating, die.

        What about all the feed that goes towards dairy cows. Do we need to get rid of milk, cheese, ice cream, sour cream, yogurt, cottage cheese? What about eggs? I wish they would keep chemicals out of animals, though.

        Like I said, food has redeeming qualities, smoking doesn’t. You could use tobacco farms to produce food.

        • lorac

          But no one’s talking about stopping eating… I would agree that some food has redeeming qualities, and some doesn’t. My point was just that most all of us are doing something that hurts others or the environment, but that any majority is usually able to keep the attention focused on the minority!

          Have you ever seen the photos of the waste pools at factory pig farms? (I think they’re mostly located in NC….?) Ew, ew, ew….!!! The poor neighbors!

          • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

            But if you cut out cheese and ice cream isn’t that basically putting an end to eating? haha

            In the list of things that harm the environment, that need fixed, I would put meat, dairy, poultry way at the bottom of that list.

            Rid the world of junk food and eliminate all the production pollutions and transportation costs, and trash associated with junk food. I would reduce pollutants from all kinds of industry. Cars, oil, wasting water, smoking, etc. etc. Everyone drives, and every time they do, they are sending harmful pollutants out. Every time someone throws out a plastic bag, or disposable diaper, or an appliance, instead of getting it repaired. Every time someone litters. Every time someone buys a foreign made automobile it hurts our own economy/auto industry.

            I would fix all those problems before I set my sites on meat, dairy and poultry. Besides, would we even have the capability to produce enough veggies to sustain the country if we eliminated meat, dairy and eggs? And that doesn’t sound very healthy for children growing up eating only beans for protein. Plus, with all that beam eating, wouldn’t we be causing a whole new set of problems with all those gases… haha

            And no, I haven’t seen the waste pools at pig farms. ewe!

  • http://jaybfl.blogspot.com/ jay

    Since a high percentage of criminals in jail are black, employers should not hire blacks. Since a high percentage of native Americans are alcoholic, employers should not hire native Americans. Since women have a high percentage of breast cancer….

    …well, you see where it goes. Stupid.

  • Fred

    There always has to be a scapegoat and a way to change the subject. There are always those who have unhealthy lifestyles and there always will be. But this has nothing to do with the enormous profits that the health care industry (both insurers and providers) wring out of the system. Are they going to exclude children exposed to lead? Perhaps women who have high risk pregnancies show be dropped? How about the wealthy that ski especially while drunk? This tactic is simply another attempt to blame the victim instead of looking at the greed, avarice, and complete lack of principals of both business and politicians. The ignorant morons don’t deserve any medical treatment is the attitude that is rearing its ugly head.

    • Tricia Spiegel

      Really good point, Fred!!!

    • Peggy Sue

      Fred said:

      “This tactic is simply another attempt to blame the victim instead of looking at the greed, avarice, and complete lack of principals of both business and politicians.”

      Bingo!

  • Stan Davis

    Can DNA screening be far behind?

    All of this garbage is based on statistics and averages. The slipperiest slope of all is applying statistics and averages to individuals.

    Stan Davis
    Lakewood, CO

    • Arabella Trefoil

      Obama’s health plan is entirely DNA based:

      Do
      Not
      Age

    • Ginger

      There is a law that got passed last year to procure a newborn’s DNA.

  • blue orchid

    People ought to be free to do whatever they like, as long as they don’t undermine other people’s interest with their conduct e.g. smokers ought to go outside to smoke and thus avoid subjecting others to secondhand smoke.

  • Katmoon

    Maybe the government will just tattoo a triangle of a certain color on people to more easily designate what their particular health issue is. Sound extreme? It better, because if we become more and more separated by our differences; healthy or not it will all come down to who is deemed to be more valuable based on certain characteristics, genetics, age, wealth..etc. This is and always has been the problem of even well intentioned coverage for (name the program). People will be ostracized, singled out and others will be bigoted against them.

    • tango

      I also expect that when pregnancy is covered under the government paid plan, prenatal testing will be done. And if something found is bothersome, “counseling” will be given on the treatment options. And I expect the counseling will largely consist of pushing abortion due to the problems and expense of giving birth to & raising less than perfectly healthy children.

      With baby boomers quickly aging to social security age and SS and Medicare quickly going bust, the government will increase taxes and find any and all ways to cut expenses as they struggle to pay for the costs of insuring all Americans if a government paid plan goes through. You can bet they will push abortion as the cheapest and quickest way to deal with less than perfect babies. And end of life counseling will also consists of pushing care that costs the least amount of money for the least amount of time.

      I know some think I’m pessimistic and paranoid, but that’s the way I feel. Considering the large amount of people who pay no income taxes at all, it’s unbelievable to think that we’re going to have the ready cash to pay for all the government giveaways without some sort of restrictions and rationing.

      • lorac

        The reason that SS is running out of funds (besides the fact that they took money out for other purposes) is that the proportion of current wage earners is smaller than that of retired and soon-to-retire workers. One way to reverse that proportion would be to have more younger people – of course, they couldn’t be so “imperfect” as not be able to work and contribute SS taxes. Another way to reverse that is to give another amnesty and let millions and millions more illegals be citizens (which might not be his only reason for another amnesty of course).

        (If we’re going to have an amnesty every 20 years, why bother having citizenship rules? We might as well just open the border.)

    • lorac

      Hitler put those symbols on people’s clothes, depending on if they were gypsies, gay, or Jew.

      • Katmoon

        I know Lorac, I was being very snarky.

        • lorac

          Ooops! I was being very sleepy lol

  • oowawa

    Important topic, Pat, thanks. The following video was posted last week, but inasmuch as it is hilarious, very well done, and speaks directly to the “fat people” issue, I’m putting up the link again. It’s remarkable how much the singer sounds like Thee One trying to sing. One of my favorites!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IQSbJUj7u8

    • Peggy Sue

      Thanks for posting the link, oowawa. I missed it on the first round. What a halarious parody. And it does sound like the O singing. Really made me laugh.

  • Katmoon

    The best way to move a new type of government into a county is to first divide the people.

  • mamakay

    Did’nt Hitler just want blond, blue eyed babies born? Where will all this end? We can start with over weight folks and smokers move on from there.

  • HARP

    Obama is ineligible for Potus because he smokes.

    • Arabella Trefoil

      If only everybody in the United States would agree with everything Obama wants, he wouldn’t need to smoke. It’s our fault that the guy smokes.

      We have a moral obligation to obey Obama so he can stop smoking.

  • pm317

    Whole foods nation will be quick to ostracize everyone who falls short of their standards. I never thought these liberal minded intellectuals could be so close minded and judgmental. Perhaps they are not truly what they profess to be.

    Great toon, as usual!

  • Aaron Kramer

    This is fascism! When everything is done under the guise of “The best Interest of the State,” the shark has been jumped. What scares me is how many people actually agree or believe with this premise. Maybe we should just put down those who have been on welfare for more than 18 months because they are a burden on the state. Should we sterilize everyone in a family if one member has a defect? The funny thing that this is the exact argument that early 1900s progressives made. The state knows all and should determine everything for all. This movement was alive throughout world history and now is showing its true colors once again. People this isn’t about left and right, Democrat or Republican but rathe freedom and tyranny.

  • EWard

    Obama Declares War on Americans

    Why do we have to protect ourselves against our own government? This administration starting from the top – BO – has gone nuts. By BO’s standards, he would be fired! He’s a smoker and a serial liar.

    The founder of Whole Foods writes an editorial against Obama’s HC plans and immediately a boycott is organized in Facebook against the owner. This man pays the hc costs for his employees and gives back to the community. There is something seriously wrong with our country when BO’s lies go unchallenged by the media. This is why people are angry at the Town Meetings. They see through his BS.

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  • momule

    Well I just posted an incisive and focussed (not!)reply. I hit add comment, it disappeared and is still disappeared! Has all my thought and effort gone for naught. Is this what they call “Lost in the Spam Filter”? First time it’s happened but I haven’t posted for some time.

    • Tricia Spiegel

      It’s there now–scroll up. Good comment!

  • JohnnyB

    Thanks again Pat for a great cartoon and a pertinent question for discussion during the health care “debate”.

    Everyone should be covered. Everyone.

    Some people rarely get sick and rarely go to the doctor/clinic. These balance out high risk people that need the insurance to pay or they go broke or die from the lack of coverage.

    The Health Care Pool of money should be large enough to cover us all. You know we spend $100 Million a day in Afghanistan? Maybe the same in Iraq? Cut that out, close some bases (like Japan) and maybe we’d have some money to take care of the people that try to take care of the whole world.

    • Ginger

      Only people who have the jobs in this country will have to pay for it.

      Add in the increase in Bush taxes to pay for the Iraq war and the uncertainty of how much my taxes will further go up with the Stim Package passed by Bush and then the other Stim Bill passed by Obama coupled w/ the CARS deal…

      NO THANX!

  • Don X

    It appears unlikely that it will happen, but I will keep repeating that single payer is the way to go. If paying for universal health care is the problem, how about sending a few less rockets to the moon or forget about expanding the space program until we get our own house in order?

    As for dealing with people whose behavior leads to expensive health care, why not put more money into programs that educate children about good health practices, and how about parents becoming better health role models for the next generation and helping their children develop healthy food choices? Why don’t we pressure fast food places to offer healthy food menus that actually taste good without high levels of salt and sugar?

  • Barry 0351

    I once knew a fellow who was written up and fired for carrying and sharpening a Stanley Razor knife commonly called a box cutter. (the company did not provide replacement blades)
    His crime was he sharpened his razor knife behind the wormen’s back, where the knife sharpener was kept on a shelf, sometimes he even changed the blade right there where the spares were kept.
    His Job?
    He opened boxes of hardware that the women used to load up a hardware bag for cheap furniture. It required a cutting tool and a box cutter was that tool.
    His resason to be fired was?
    In sharpening his razor knife behind the women’s backs who worked on the line in front of the tool box shelf created a “HOSTILE WORK PLACE ENVIROMENT” The employers in this state can fire with or without a reason. If this is so people can and will be fired for being overweight, underweight, smoking or not smoking as the case may be.
    This fellow was also considered a danger because it was said, “he had skills that involved killing people as he was a vietnam veteran of the Military.”
    No the EEOC was not interested in his case.

    • Tricia Spiegel

      Un-friggin’-believable!
      Your point is very real. Emmployers can always find reasons to get rid of whomever they want, even if the reason isn’t the REAL reason.

  • Patience

    I have an HSA (Health Savings Account) with a very high deductible. Yet, last year when I got a Chantix prescription to quit smoking, the insurer paid most of the cost of it.

    I feel any healthcare reform should work towards the ultimate goal of creating affordable, personal ownership of coverage – not more government or employer-provided healthcare. This will help to prevent job discrimination due to employer healthcare costs, which ALREADY OCCURS when it comes to older employees. It will help to reduce the over-consumption and frivolous use of healthcare, which not only wastes resources but, as one example, has resulted in an increase in antibiotic-resistant disease. Private ownership will compel many individuals to improve their behavior, as they’ll see a direct correlation between their behavior and insurance premiums.

    As long as someone else is footing the bill, there’s less incentive to take personal responsibility. I’m old enough to remember when JFK championed the notion of physical fitness (this was before Medicare even existed). Since today’s medical providers have discovered that leeches serve a useful clinical purpose, I don’t think we should dismiss looking back to find ways to solve today’s problems, as much as this may ruffle so-called progressive sensibilities.

    • Ellen D

      Patience, you may be near my age and still working, like me. I’m glad you have a good employer, but I need to comment on some of your points:

      I feel any healthcare reform should work towards the ultimate goal of creating affordable, personal ownership of coverage – not more government or employer-provided healthcare.

      Umm – aren’t you on, or close to getting Medicare soon? Are you going to turn it down because it is government health care?

      This will help to prevent job discrimination due to employer healthcare costs, which ALREADY OCCURS when it comes to older employees.

      Yep – the health insurance companies charge companies more for older employees. But this wouldn’t happen with government health insurance.

      It will help to reduce the over-consumption and frivolous use of healthcare, which not only wastes resources but, as one example, has resulted in an increase in antibiotic-resistant disease.

      I already have had MRSA (an antibiotic-resistant disease) even though I avoided taking antibiotics all my life and certainly didn’t use healthcare frivolously. We are all vulnerable now because of all the antibiotics they have been pumping into animal feed.

      Private ownership will compel many individuals to improve their behavior, as they’ll see a direct correlation between their behavior and insurance premiums.

      Unless you are unlucky enough to get cancer for no reason, like Jackie Kennedy. Since you remember Jack Kennedy I hope you remember Jackie saying when she came down with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma that she was bewildered because she had done all the right things.

      Stuff happens. Government healthcare for all.

      • Patience

        Hi Ellen – Ditto about the agricultural use of antibiotics.

        I haven’t suggested getting rid of Medicare. I’m self-employed and pay for my own insurance, but expect to continue doing so even after I qualify for Medicare. Healthcare coverage for older people understandably costs more, whether it’s paid for by an employer, the government, or personally. But why promote the continuation of a practice (employer-provided healthcare) that effectively leads to job discrimination? I’m not saying it should be disallowed, but rather that personal, portable ownership should be encouraged.

        If Medicare is so good, why do so many opt for supplemental coverage? And how can we expect better Medicare coverage if the government extends its healthcare to millions more? Doesn’t the POTUS himself keep saying that current government healthcare costs are unsustainable?

        I don’t quite understand the point you’re trying to make about Jackie O (who was a smoker). If someone does “all the right things”, their insurance premiums will be lower. But if they nevertheless get cancer, catastrophic coverage (like my HSA) will still pay for treatment.

        I still think there’s a role for government in healthcare. The poor obviously can’t afford to buy insurance. But government is in a unique position to create incentives for personal ownership of healthcare, just as it does for home ownership.

        IMO JFK had the right idea when he said, “Ask not what your country can do for you…” That quote made an indelible impression on me as a child and continues to be words I try to live by.

        • Ellen D

          Self-employed. Good for you. Me too.

          With Medicare you have to have supplemental. It doesn’t pay for all of part B and that’s the reality of it in the U.S.
          You really don’t want to try to get full personal health insurance on your own after 65. Even if you could, the rates will kill you.

          Good point about a system that is based on employers. A friend today that is Japanese told me how crazy she thought that was when she moved to the U.S.

  • Rich

    Interesting cartoon that shows smoking and overweight in the same person and is about a very important subject.

    To me the subject is what is a free society? It is not a free society and has not been so for a long time, so why do we keep saying it is about a free society? In the old west if you decided to go across country you were free to do so. However if you got stuck, no one was coming to safe your ass. If you built your home in an unsafe way and you lived miles from your next neighbor, no problem since again no one was coming to safe you. If you decided to drink yourself to death, you were free to do so since no one was going to pay for your medical bills, though the town may have passed the hate around for your funeral expenses. If you chose to play with guns and in doing so shot yourself, again no problem because strangers did not have to pick up your medical bills and the law did not make the doctor take care of you.

    In today’s society were what you do affect your neighbor we are not living in a free society so stop thinking and saying we do. If you build a home without permits you will not be allowed to move into it. If you build a home that could burn down easily, you might also burn down my home so that is not OK. If you drive without insurance you will cause me problems if we get into an accident, so you have to have a license and insurance. If you choose to blow up your home you will probably also blow up mine, so that is not OK. We do not even allow you to take your own life so there is no free society.

    If you say I am my brother’s and sister’s keeper, then my brother and sister better care about what they do and how it affects me and the society I live in and not just themselves.

    So who out there who is an employer is willing to welcome all of the smokers, overweight or illegal drug using employees to their work force?

    Rich

  • EWard

    Ellen D.

    FYI, Jackie Kennedy was a smoker. However, she never smoked in public. I remember seeing a picture of her during her last pregnancy and she’s holding a cigarette.

  • http://noquarter foxyladi14

    right on Pat love the toon.

  • TeakWoodKite

    NO! My bad habits and vices are mine! You can’t have them!

    Is not the current message from TOTUS telling me to switch from buying ducktape to healthcare or I will suffer an IRS penalty? (or else?)

    So I have some “pre-existing” health issues bad habits. Am I to believe that it will cost me more based on some “risk factor” determined by who exactly?

    One of the sad ironies about 9/11 was the people who had to exited the buildings to have a smoke survived. When the smoking ban was instituted in NYC, all of a sudden people poured out into the street to light up.

    Love plaid shirt, Pat!

  • Cathy in Ks.

    Although obesity and smoking are supposed to shorten one’s life span, my very obese paternal grandmother who died many years ago lived into her early eighties. My paternal grandmother lived in her own home until the last few of weeks of her life when she was hospitalized. Her obesity during most of her adult years of her life was a source of great concern for many of her relatives. But with the exceptions of her husband (my paternal grandfather who lived to be almost 100 years and who was a cigar smoker but not obese), my grandmother lived a longer life than most of her anxious relatives and I suspect happier life because she was not worrying about longevity.
    According to modern day statistics these two people should have lived much shorter lives and they should have been a drain on the health care system as well as the pocketbooks of their families. Some may say their stories are exceptional. I don’t think so. I think there are many other stories out there similar to theirs.

  • JozefAL

    Considering how easy you people have swallowed the rhetoric produced by the very people who don’t want to do anything to reform the health industry, there’s no sense in arguing with any of you.
    Take a look at any of the GOP proposals that have been offered during this health care debate. Oh, wait. There haven’t been any, have there? Nope. Not a one. All the GOP has done has been to sow the very same fears that they and their health industry supporters did 15 years ago when a certain First Lady of the US made the first serious effort to reform the parasites that make up the American health care industry. When a Democratic Congressman introduced a bill that would end a part of “socialized medicine” (commonly known as “Medicare”), not a single one of the GOPers who rail and rant against “socialized medicine” went for it. They ALL know that would cost them their seats in Washington. And yet, while they continue to support Medicare, while they continue to support the medical health care program that THE GOVERNMENT provides its military veterans, they keep terrorizing American citizens that “socialized medicine” is a horror that we simply cannot have. I call bullshit, and every single one of you who bought into these GOP hypocrites outrageous claims should be ashamed of yourselves.
    I’ve got health insurance through my job, but if I were to lose that job, I couldn’t afford to pay the premiums that most insurers want to charge. And with those fucking GOPers and the sniveling cowardly Dems who’ve lined up with those GOPers insisting that there’s no problem that requires the government offer a national health insurance program, we’re certainly not going to have any real reform.
    Hell, look how the fucking credit card industry has been “reformed.” They got a full year to make the necessary changes that will continue to screw over their customers (even the ones who’ve been very judicious in their credit card use) after next year’s deadline. How did the credit/banking industry get so lucky? Because of their lobbyists who managed to convince Congress that the credit industry’s need to make a profit was more important (to Congresscritters’ continued well-being) than the welfare of Congressional constituents. And what industry is doing its best to convince Congress that industry’s profits are more important (to Congresscritters’ continued well-being) than the well-being of Congressional constituents? The health care INDUSTRY.
    But, most of you have become so frightened of the prospect of “socialized medicine” because of the same group of neocon assholes who helped waste TRILLIONS of dollars (that could have actually helped fund the “public option” for years) on a stupid, pointless war in Iraq. Just remember Grover Norquist and his batch of lunatics don’t have your best interests at heart; they’re only interested in THEIR own best interests. And if they can make a single buck out of selling you out, they’ll do it in a heartbeat. And take a good hard look at the “leaders” of the current attacks on the Democrats’ health care proposals. You won’t like what you see (unless, of course, you’re one of those heartless bastards that claim to be “for the people” when they’ve done jack-squat to help “the people”).

    • Pat Racimora

      Not really fair to judge us all in that way, JozefAL. I don’t think No Quarter readers for the most part would disagree with a lot of what you are saying.

      The the truth is that we don’t yet know for sure what inthe hell the health care bills that actually go up for a vote will be like. But it feels like the people are not going to be the winners in all of this.

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  • brendy

    Obama himself is a smoker, but of course – HE doesn’t have to follow the same healthcare plan we peons would have to follow if this ‘piece of sh#t’ ObamaCare passes…

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