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A CIA Melt Down?

By Larry Johnson on August 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM in Current Affairs

Lots of CIA issues in the news today–alleged assassination teams, a new White House led system for interrogating High Value Terrorists, and Eric Holder appointing a special prosecutor to look into allegations of criminal conduct in torturing terrorist suspects. Whew! I will focus in this piece on the interrogation shift.

I consider this potential good news–the Washington Post’s Anne Kornblut reports that:

President Obama has approved the creation of an elite team of interrogators to question key terrorism suspects, part of a broader effort to revamp U.S. policy on detention and interrogation, senior administration officials said Sunday.

Obama signed off late last week on the unit, named the High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group, or HIG. On Monday, White House spokesman Bill Burton confirmed that the high-value interrogation unit will be based at the FBI and will operate “consistent with the army field manual” which provides guidelines for questioners.

This is probably a good thing.

The CIA does not have experience nor expertise in conducting interrogations. Forget all of the Hollywood bullshit that has been on TV and movies, the CIA’s basic expertise (on the ops side of the house that is) consists of recruiting sources, keeping them happy and reporting on the information they are sharing with us on the q.t. This is not and never has been interrogation. The military and law enforcement on the other hand do have experience and expertise in conducting interrogations. So putting together a genuine inter-agency team to conduct interrogations makes a lot of sense. The key is what happens to the information and whether or not the various participants will actually share information with their parent organizations. There’s the rub.

A law enforcement interrogation is generally speaking an evidence collection procedure. The information is acquired in a way that it can be documented and preserved for subsequent presentation in court. Unfortunately there have been times in the past where the FBI in particular has use the excuse of pursuing a legal case to keep information away from the CIA. But the CIA’s hands are not clean on this front either. CIA officers, for example, prevented the FBI from receiving news that Al Qaeda operatives had arrived in the United States. There is blame for both sides.

There is no single government agency that can or should handle interrogations. We need intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies at the table and it is appropriate for the White House to oversee this process and ensure that both sides are working and playing well together.

Let me take you back to the Pan Am 103 case to illustrate the problems and possibilities of getting CIA and FBI to get along. The law enforcement side of the house had a chip recovered from the wreckage that they thought was from a Toshiba radio. They did not share that piece with anyone in the intelligence community and pushed forward, unsuccessfully, in trying to make the case with the assumption that the tiny piece of circuit board was from a Toshiba. Finally, the FBI agreed to share the piece of evidence with the CIA. It turns out the CIA during an op in West Africa had picked up a Mebo timer that was connected to a Libyan backed terrorist group. CIA analysts matched the fragment the FBI provided with the timer they snagged in Africa.

Here’s a couple of pictures of the fragment:
lockerbie-mebo-timer-fragment
mebo-timer-fragment-number-2

It was only after the FBI investigators went to Switzerland and interviewed the folks who ran MEBO that we learned that Libya had bought a batch of these particular timers. That’s the point when the investigation shifted and shifted into high gear.

This is but one case to illustrate some of the problems that arise in trying to share information between the FBI and the CIA. Each have an important role to play. They do different things in different ways. There will be some instances where information can be gleaned from a suspect that will be used to prevent a terrorist attack. But that info can be obtained without coercive measures that border on torture.. There also will be cases where a suspect will make incriminating statements or provide evidence that will be used to prosecute some other terrorist suspect.

Can we grow up and recognize we need both functions?

It is idiotic for the rightwingers to push the nonsense that only the CIA can get info from terrorists. Bullshit!! But it also is not true that only the FBI should be involved. We need both and I am hopeful that this new approach will help bridge the gaps in information sharing that persist despite the promises to fix those problems in the wake of 9-11.

  • Ellen D

    Perfect. Thanks, Larry.

  • http://noquarter foxyladi14

    good article Larry.thanks

  • Tammy

    Setting up a group of trained interrogators sounds like a good idea to me. I never thought that only the CIA conducted these kinds of interviews, but assumed that each agency had specialist in that area.

    I just think the revival of this “investigation” into past CIA abuses is a smokescreen to get the public’s eye off of the health care debacle.
    What do you think, Larry?

    And if the identities of those past CIA operatives are exposed to the public, wouldn’t Obama be putting their lives and the lives of their families in danger?

    • VinceP

      I’m sure Obama is getting some on loan from the KGB

  • Craig Della Penna

    I get your point about cooperation between the agencies and I understand that the responsibility for running this kind of operation must go somewhere.

    I’m just wary about it being run out of the White House, especially with this autocratic-minded president. You don’t have to stray too far from the path to imagine this being used inappropriately by the arrogant, koolaid crew now ensconced at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave,

    • Tammy

      I’m with you on that line of thinking!

  • Doc99

    Panetta apparently in shouting match with Holder. I wonder if Marc Rich came up?

    • truthtelling007

      Where did you read that Panetta got into a shouting match with Holder? I just read the article you liked to and many others, and none of them says Panetta got into a shouting match with Eric Holder.

      The rest of your drivel about Marc Rich shows your real intentions.

  • HARP

    If they are going to follow the Army Field Manual, it is a joke.

    • Doc99

      The entire Ozero Administration has been a joke. When is Mrs. Clinton going to preserve her reputation and resign?

      • HARP

        Soon I hope, otherwise she will be tarnished with the same brush.

      • SJ

        Good question I thought she would of by now but guess she just loved being the abused woman in this game, either that or she is a hell lot weaker than I thought.

  • Diana L. C.

    As far as I know, the FBI and the CIA both work for us. It seems strange to my way of thinking that they hadn’t developed a better way of working together to start with.

    Thanks for the post.

  • HARP

    So Holder cancels the charges against the Black Panthers,and appoints a special prosecutor for the CIA.

    You are not fooling anyone Obama. We all know this is done to TRY and rally the base. Too late. Everyone by now knows you are a liar and a phony. Nice Gig while it lasted.

    • hokma

      Makes sense to me.

      Black Panthers are on Holder’s and Obama’s side – the CIA ain’t.

  • tzada

    ummmmmmm right wingers? Guess I could be considered that. I consider myself a conservative, but the current white house regime woconsiders me a right wing nut.

    I thought it was the Obama administration pushing for this investigation. Didn’t realize it was me, who was insiting on it. ;)

    Good article in the most part. But it cannot be a good thing if the WH is involved.

    • tzada

      woconsiders = considers

    • Tammy

      I’m with you, tzada. I’m conservative, but I would probably be considered too middle of the road to be a “right winger”. Since when did “right wingers” insist that only the CIA could interrogate terrorist suspects?
      Huh?
      I missed that memo.

      I don’t care who interrogates those scum, I just want them to get ‘em to talk. Police use threats and scare tactics to get confessions. Why not the CIA, FBI and whomever else does the questioning?

      • Onofe’s arm

        Is there a “Jack Bauer” branch of the FBI? I’ld be willing to donate some farm implements, and I’m sure I can find some obsolete dental tools at bargain rates.

        Did you know there was a Nazi Dr. Dolittle, he MADE the animals talk.

  • Tricia Spiegel

    Very interesting–I learned a lot. Thanks, Larry.

  • Docelder

    The question is… now that the White House has it’s own interrogation squad… where is the oversight? With the CIA there was oversight. Also, define terrorism suspects… it is limited to persons picked up in the battlefield in Afghanistan? Or are we including newer domestic suspects such as returning military people or people who send a lot of mails that make their way to flag@?

    • tzada

      This regime has already called us terrorists, among other things. They are hiring National Guards to intern and resettle people.

    • Tammy

      Well, I just read that Mohammed Jawad was released back to Afghanistan. He was in Guantanamo for throwing a grenade and injuring some of our soldiers and their interpreter.
      I’m sure HE’S not a terrorist, and he’ll go back to his life of raising goats.
      It’s those EEEEVIL hatemongers who ask questions at town hall meetings that are the REAL terrorists.

    • truthtelling007

      “With the CIA there was oversight. ”

      There was? That’s not what Congressional members are saying. And …since the AG John Ashcroft knew of one suspect being waterboarded 119, what good was that oversight?

      There is little oversight regarding the CIA, as it is most exclusively hindsight….when it comes to the Congress and the CIA.

    • oowawa

      an elite team of interrogators

      “now that the White House has it’s own interrogation squad”

      That’s all that I need to hear. I’ll sing like a canary. You want to know about those mp3′s I downloaded from the internet last year? Yes! I’ll tell! I’ll also confess I continually ridiculed Thee One and repeatedly referred to Obamacare as O-Whole Health! I’ll tell everything. Just don’t send in the specially trained interrogation squad!

  • tzada

    Fox Poll on this subject.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/08/24/justice-department-pursue-cia-abuse-cases/

    Thank you for voting!
    Yes 5% (2273 votes)

    No 94% (40327 votes)

    I’m not sure <1% (135 votes)

    Total Votes: 42735
    Go voice your opinion

  • Linda Anselmi

    Thanks Larry.

    Greatly appreciate your insights and perspective.

    • Linda Anselmi

      Meant to add – that with all the focus on health care and the economy, we are loosing sight of the wars and security issues. And they are just as critical to our future.

  • tzada

    On The Day Obama Decides To Investigate CIA Operatives, He Sets Another Terrorist Free

    Not the biggest fish he’s let go but the juxtaposition and timing are just too much not to note.

    The Obama administration reportedly has released a prisoner from the Guantanamo Bay detention camp accused of attacking U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
    According to Reuters, the administration released Mohammed Jawad to his home in Afghanistan.

    Jawad had been accused of throwing a grenade in 2002 that injured two U.S. soldiers and their interpreter in Kabul. He has returned to his family, according to his lawyer.

    http://ace.mu.nu/

  • VinceP

    This is a freakin disaster.

    To be honest, I dont give a damn what the CIA did to the barbarians.

    All I know is, that Obama hates this country and he’s doing everything he can to assist Team Islam.

    Disaster.

  • http://! stodgie

    obama is just a deflection with pelosi trying to cover her tush. i am not impressed with anything obama says or does. as they days go by i feel more and more anger. and if anyone thinks i am the only one, then go out on the street and ask people their opinions.

  • TeakWoodKite

    I am hopeful

    Thanks, Mr. Johnson.

    What is the alternative? How does Retired’s view fit in when the “consumers” of the intel are the ones you were concerned about and wrote about several months back?

    Have any of those conditions changed for the better that allow for sharing intel without compromising either side of the house? Seems like the CIA might be feeling a tad skeptical about the use of thier work product being used as political fodder.

    If this being run out of 1600, under who’s direction?
    Is there any “oversite” or should one concerned about the “authoritarian” use of such a unit being directed by the WH?

  • tzada

    Some may not like President Bush and VP Cheney, but now that I am aware of the interest the MSM has with destruction, I wonder what was the truth or was it all somewhere in between? I will say that I always slept well at night, knowing that if the 3 am call they would do this country right.

    I feel that the current regime would show whoever comes a calling on the USA, the secret passage into our castle.

    The documents released Monday clearly demonstrate that the individuals subjected to Enhanced Interrogation Techniques provided the bulk of intelligence we gained about al Qaeda. This intelligence saved lives and prevented terrorist attacks. These detainees also, according to the documents, played a role in nearly every capture of al Qaeda members and associates since 2002. The activities of the CIA in carrying out the policies of the Bush Administration were directly responsible for defeating all efforts by al Qaeda to launch further mass casualty attacks against the United States. The people involved deserve our gratitude. They do not deserve to be the targets of political investigations or prosecutions. President Obama’s decision to allow the Justice Department to investigate and possibly prosecute CIA personnel, and his decision to remove authority for interrogation from the CIA to the White House, serves as a reminder, if any were needed, of why so many Americans have doubts about this Administration’s ability to be responsible for our nation’s security.

    Former Vice President Dick Cheney

  • donjo

    This used to be a good site with many clear, cognizant, and pertinent comments. Lately, however it seems to have been taken over by refugees from Freeperland – or somewhere on the far right whose agenda seems to be to quell legitimate thought. To post a comment by the consummate liar, Dick Cheney, to prove a point, just underscores the problem.

    I’ve always felt that this country is inches away from being another Nazi Germany and what I’m reading on this site and others shows that fear to be well founded.

    • tzada

      Yes you are right and it is becoming like Nazi Germany with the current regime. Mr Cheney had valid points. I had valid points to make too. The MSM chooses a side, mainly liberal and creates the news slant for that liberal agenda. In such as they demonized Hillary, Sarah, Bush and Cheney I see a pattern.

      I did not fawn over Mr Cheney, and this site has never been pro Bush. But at least LJ let my comments stand as did many other long time posters. You I have just seen just a time or two…. So far we have free speech and a free internet. People like you have a chilling effect on freedom, if we the People allow it. I choose not to.

      • donjo

        Chilling effect? When you see what is going on in this country now and has been going on under Chimpy and company concerning our freedoms? Such as the “Patriot” Act and the OK to spy on citizens’ phone and internet communications, you have the gall to say my post has a chilling effect? Not to mention the takeover of the MSM by the right wing nut cases.
        (It gets a little old spouting the “liberal” media meme. Doesn’t work anymore such it is such a blatant falsehood. Check who owns what. Check out the program to embed “safe” reporters and while you’re at it, read about the Rendon group manipulating the media in order to get us into a war we didn’t need.) Now, that’s a chilling effect.

        • TeakWoodKite

          Chimpy and company concerning our freedoms.

          How dare you say this racist crap of Obama.

          So who voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act?

          Your point about the Rendon Group? We got us into a war we didn’t need. Love hearing from a professed “liberal” who thinks wars are needful things.

  • Sassy

    Though I am old enough to know better, I still hope for persons of integrity and honor to serve our country’s interest.
    I have real concerns with more and more more power being turned over to the discretion of a few!

  • CentralMass

    This is all is a distraction from the real issue.
    It is a matter of Law. If the Bush Administration and other in the government authorized the CIA to use these interrogation techniques, then they were acting under presidential authority. If Laws were broken, then those up the food chain should be held to the proper legal standard.. We are nation founded on Law, not elected official’s personal ideologies/agenda’s. I remember at the start of the Iraq War, Bush got on the tube a spoke about how he was going to “shut-down” Hussein’s torture rooms. He didn’t mention that they would re-open under new management This was a blatant abuse of power. Elected officials can not operate with impunity outside of the Law. We impeached a guy for lying about a blow-job but (apparently) lying about authorization of torture is ok. This was serious break-down in our government. Where was the over-sight? Where is the accountability? A select few elected leaders and their appointees can make a decision torture in the name of 300 million residents of this country.

  • CentralMass

    This is all is a distraction from the real issue.
    It is a matter of Law. If the Bush Administration and other in the government authorized the CIA to use these interrogation techniques, then they were acting under presidential authority. If Laws were broken, then those up the food chain should be held to the proper legal standard.. We are nation founded on Law, not elected official’s personal ideologies/agenda’s. I remember at the start of the Iraq War, Bush got on the tube a spoke about how he was going to “shut-down” Hussein’s torture rooms. He didn’t mention that they would re-open under new management This was a blatant abuse of power. Elected officials can not operate with impunity outside of the Law. We impeached a guy for lying about a blow-job but (apparently) lying about authorization of torture is ok. This was serious break-down in our government. Where was the over-sight? Where is the accountability? A select few elected leaders and their appointees can’t make a decision torture in the name of 300 million residents of this country.

    • Tammy

      Yeah, and now Obama has his OWN interrogation group that is under NO law.
      And Czars under no law.
      And the Unions thugging citizens.

      Frankly, I don’t give a shit about Bush anymore.
      I live TODAY, and this President/Dictator scares me more than Bush EVER did.

      • CentralMass

        I didn’t vote for Obama, I won’t vote for him in 2012.

        This is why it is critical that things like this do not get swept under the rug. Abuse of the law, and hundreds of signing statements have setup the executive branch as being above the law.

        President come and ago and politcal parties rise and fall but the law applies to all of them.

        A presidency where a shadow government sold banned weapons to an offically labelled terrorist state then used to proceeds to covertly fund a war in Central America should have scared you. A government who do nothing about it should scare you.

        I think this investagation should happen but it should start at the top. Who if anyone authorized the use of these tactics? What legal steps did they take to cover their a$$e$? Who in governemnt knew about and did nothing to stop it?

        Our country and government is founded on law. The government can’t pick and choose which laws they are going to abide by and enforce. That is why this country is going to hell. They have lost all credibility. When they break the law there is no expectation that they are going to be held accounatble. Unless it involves a blowjob.

  • tzada

    Melissa Clouthier and Andrew Ian Dodge on Moran’s show

    Tonight, Moran’s special guests are Dr. Melissa Clouthier and Andrew Ian Dodge. They’ll look at the war that has broken out between the CIA and the White House as well as the latest on health care reform.

    The show will air from 7:00 – 8:00 PM Central time. You can access the live stream here. A podcast will be available for streaming or download shortly after the end of the broadcast.

    Click on the stream below and join in on what one wag called a “Wayne’s World for adults.”

    The Chat Room will open around 15 minutes before the show opens,

    Also, if you’d like to call in and put your two cents in, you can dial (718) 664-9764.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/08/melissa_clouthier_and_andrew_i.html