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Second Acts and Redemption

Who decides who deserves a second act?

I am fairly new to American history. Since Ted Kennedy’s death, I have learned a lot more of what he did (or didn’t do) in the accident he caused in Chappaquiddick which directly led to the loss of a life. In a confession video (See AGI’s post for it) he says he pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of the accident. That is enough for me to know what he did. Many are glossing over the crime and some even saying everyone makes mistakes. But if a John Doe had made the same mistake as Teddy, he would be rotting in jail for sometime at least with a manslaughter conviction. Instead this reckless human being from a wealthy family got a second act for his “youthful indiscretion.”

Who deserves a second act?

It is one thing to find a nameless blogger at Huffington Post writing that the loss of Mary Jo in the grand scheme of things was worth it because it made a better man of Teddy. But it is entirely another to find a noted author, Joyce Carol Oates writing this in her article in the Guardian, Kennedy’s redemption from the depths :

‘There are no second acts in American lives’– this dour pronouncement of F Scott Fitzgerald has been many times refuted, and at no time more appropriately than in reference to the late Senator Ted Kennedy, whose death was announced yesterday. Indeed, it might be argued that Senator Kennedy’s career as one of the most influential of 20th-century Democratic politicians, an iconic figure as powerful, and as morally enigmatic, as President Bill Clinton, whom in many ways Kennedy resembled, was a consequence of his notorious behaviour at Chappaquiddick bridge in July 1969.

Yet, ironically, following this nadir in his life/ career, Ted Kennedy seemed to have genuinely refashioned himself as a serious, idealistic, tirelessly energetic liberal Democrat in the mold of 1960s/1970s American liberalism, arguably the greatest Democratic senator of the 20th century. His tireless advocacy of civil rights, rights for disabled Americans, health care, voting reform, his courageous vote against the Iraq war (when numerous Democrats including Hillary Clinton voted for it) suggest that there are not only “second acts” in American lives, but that the Renaissance concept of the “fortunate fall” may be relevant here: one “falls” as Adam and Eve “fell”; one sins and repents and is forgiven, provided that one remakes one’s life.

[snip]
At Chappaquiddick, having been drinking and partying with young women aides of his brother Robert Kennedy, Senator Kennedy, at this time a married man and a father, slipped away with 28-year-old Mary Jo Kopechne, who was trapped in his car after he took a wrong turn off the Chappaquiddick bridge, lost control of his car which was submerged in just eight feet of water.

Kennedy chose to flee the scene , leaving the young woman to die an agonising death not of drowning but of suffocation over a period of hours. Incredibly, it was 10 hours before Kennedy reported the accident, by which time he’d consulted a family lawyer. The senator’s explanation for this unconscionable, despicable, unmanly and inexplicable behaviour was never convincing: he claimed that he’d struck his head and was “confused” and “exhausted” from diving and trying to rescue the young woman and had gone home to bed.

[snip]
If Kennedy had summoned aid, he would very likely have given police officers self-incriminating evidence, which might have involved charges of vehicular manslaughter or homicide. The local prosecutor was not nearly so outraged by Kennedy’s behaviour as other prosecutors might have been: the charges were “failing to report an accident” and “leaving the scene of an accident.” The punishment: two months’ probation.

Oates says enough incriminating things in this piece but yet, lets Teddy off the hook. She even makes the classic analogy to the famous characters from the ‘Great Gatsby’ (something I was going to do when I started thinking about writing a post on this topic). But what I find most objectionable in what she says is this awful, awful line:

Yet if one weighs the life of a single young woman against the accomplishments of the man President Obama has called the greatest Democratic senator in history, what is one to think?

Ah, the disposable life of a young woman as a sacrificial lamb for the greater good! Notice, however there was no promise of the greater good yet when the actual incident happened. There in lies the contradiction of everyone making excuses for Teddy.

What perplexes me the most is that nobody can answer why Teddy deserved a second act. They are now rationalizing that he was a great senator who did great things, so he redeemed himself. But we didn’t know that he would in 1969, did we? What made him special then? His wealth, his family, his connections?

We either follow the rule of law, or we don’t. If we have one standard for the Teddys in this world, let us apply the same standard to all criminals, and see how many of them redeem themselves. Let us give them 40+ years before we judge them too. See how ridiculous that sounds?

Ms. Oates, life is not a fiction even as you write this:

One is led to think of Tom and Daisy Buchanan of Fitzgerald’s the Great Gatsby, rich individuals accustomed to behaving carelessly and allowing others to clean up after them. It is often in instances of the “fortunate fall”, think of Joseph Conrad’s anti-hero/hero Lord Jim as a classic literary analogy, that innocent individuals figure almost as ritual sacrifices is another aspect of the phenomenon.

There is no “fortunate fall” for the rest of us and we are not Tom or Daisy Buchanan, either. Stop romanticizing a criminal act.

There is no redemption here, only a wealthy man who got away.

  • tek

    I never could stomach Joyce Carol Oates, a cheap re-run of Flannery O’Conner.

    HuffPo–exactly what one could expect.

    • pm317

      Oates is not alone. Majority of liberals are saying/feeling what she said. I hope they ponder over the bigger life inequities that I have tried to highlight in this post. I also hope they stop glorifying his criminal act and making a martyr out of Mary Jo.

  • tek

    Oh, and note the allusion to Hillary–these people are still trying to justify their stupidity in voting for The Loser by ranting on over the Iraq vote. And did The One immediately end the war in Iraq? Bring the troops home? Nope, and he ain’t goin’ to. He’ll do whatever the Big Money players tell him to do–and Dick Durbin and Rahm.

    • candymarl

      Agreed Tek. Anyone else would be doing 15 to life. Revisionist history strikes again.

      The idea that Mary Jo’s death was some how worth it because Ted Kennedy went on to do good things? Do these people hear themselves? They make it sound as though her life was nothing compared to Ted. I am stunned.

      • Anon

        Perhaps she could have gone on to do great things–better things than him. We’ll never know.

        I am so ashamed of the left.

        • FranSC

          I am so ashamed of the left

          And to think before 2008, I thought liberals were much too intuitive, much too bright, believing fervently in the rule of law, to get something like the Chappaquiddick wrong! Thank God, my partisan blinders have been removed!

          If I ever knew that Mary Jo died from suffocation as opposed to drowning, I don’t recall it. That’s probably the same ‘broad-brushed’ examination done by Oats and the other liberals who are now acting as crazy as I used to think conservatives were.

      • felizarte

        I agree, candyman. Whether a life is worth another’s is up to the one who is giving up his/her life–not when it is taken. I also object to the notion of “camelot” dying with the last of the Kennedy brothers. Camelot is an idea that preceded them. The Kennedys did not invent Camelot and King Arthur and his knights of the Round Table would live on in the hearts of those who understood its principles.

        • makeji

          Jackie Kennedy invented the whole Camelot thing when JFK died.

        • FranSC

          I heard during the funeral this weekend that Jackie Kennedy wrote that Camelot died when Ted Kennedy conceded to Jimmy Carter at the 1980 Democratic Nat’l Conv. Now, with Ted Kennedy’s death, Candy Crowley said, “The Kennedy legacy is written.”

      • beebop

        I alluded to the “boiler room girls” in an earlier post.

        Here is what Wiki has to say:

        The “Boiler Room Girls” were the female members of Senator Robert F. Kennedy’s 1968 presidential campaign staff. Five of them were

        Rosemary “Cricket” Keough (now Rosemary Keough Redmond): is partner in a Lincoln, Massachusetts law firm with husband Paul Redmond

        Mary Ellen Lyons and her sister Nance Lyons: both are practicing lawyers in Boston

        Esther Newberg: is now a New York literary agent

        Susan Tannenbaum (“the prettiest”): is a retired lobbyist for Common Cause in Washington, D.C., and is married to a Washington lawyer

        Mary Jo Kopechne (“the brightest”): died at age 28 on Chappaquiddick Island in 1969 in a highly-publicized and controversial accident involving Senator Edward Kennedy, who pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident.

        Each of these young women were educated, talented and had all of the same attributes that Ted Kennedy did — well not all. They had no family money or connections and no penis. That’s why Mary Jo is dead.

        • Lana

          This is exactly what I was thinking about. Who knows where Mary Jo’s life may have led? We’ll never know because she wasn’t given the chance to know. I’m sure if you asked her as she gasped for breath that night if she’d rather get out of the car or help Ted Kennedy become a “great man” she would have wanted out of the car. Her mother and father would have wanted her our of the car. Her friends and extended family would have wanted her out of the car. Perhaps her career path would have led her to a place of greatness–in the Senate or making discoveries that save lives. Perhaps she would have had children and begun a legacy of love far superior to the Kennedy’s dynasty of destruction. We’ll never know because she wasn’t given the chance to know.

          Our criminal justice system is supposed to decide what is appropriate punishment for a crime. Kennedy’s name and wealth helped him escape that system. Perhaps it did make him commit to be a better person, but none of us are given that chance, to decide to change our lives rather than face certain jail time.

          I can’t read anything at HuffPo. This makes me sick.

          • lorac

            “Perhaps her career path would have led her to a place of greatness–in the Senate or making discoveries that save lives. Perhaps she would have had children and begun a legacy of love far superior to the Kennedy’s dynasty of destruction.”

            Well said. I especially like the second sentence, because one can do a lot of good in life, without being paid for it or being in a high profile position which allows the country to know what you have done.

            When we use publicly known accomplishments as some kind of barometer of “goodness”, it reminds me of the calls to cut Medicare, because these seniors aren’t “contributing”. Not only does this minimize their current contributions (to the development of their grandchildren, etc.), but it totally dismisses their lifetime of contributions to the world.

            Plus, don’t we all feel that if we were in the Senate or Congress, that we would do what we feel is “the right thing”? Doing the “right thing” (which will vary, depending on your ideology and philosophy of life), especially when it’s your job, should be easy and expected, not some huge big deal. IMO, instead of glorifying people like Kennedy who pass some good bills, we should put the focus on those who are incompetent, lazy, etc. Kennedy was just doing his job, at those times he worked hard for bills he believed in.

        • Diana L. C.

          I would like to know if these women have ever written or commented on their feelings about the whole scandal.

    • mary

      tek

      Obama voted against the war when it was *inconsequential* and his vote didn’t count!

      However, Obama is waging war in Afghanistan killing 1000 plus civilians to date with 85 children maimed by his drone attacks.

      Obama just passed through congress quietly a $106 billion Supplemental on his baby Afghanistan War (Obama’s Vietname according to Newsweek)
      Obama has approved $700 defense budget plus he is spending $800,000–almost a billion bucks for a fortress-embassy to house his CIAofficers, covert operations and to establish expensive bases in Islamabad,Pakistan.

      Obama is a WARMONGER WORSE THAN BUSH!
      Obama’s created 3 million refugees in the border between Af-Pak!

      Obama is “renting” a proxy Pakistani army at a U.S.Taxpayer cost of $1.5 billion per month!!!!!

      Obama = Bush III

      Shame on this Empty Suit-Prez who was outvoted by Hillary during the primaries, but Hillary was out-thugged by the Chicago Axelrod /Rahmbo (the Vicious Ballerina Boss at the White House)….

      • FranSC

        I don’t know that 0bama is a ‘WARMONGER’
        anymore than he could be called a ‘pacifist’.

        I don’t even think he has too many convictions he would risk his political life for. Primarily, he is soooooo in over his head, the only thing he can do is hang on for dear life and do what he is told to do by people like Rham, Nancy, and those that work ‘under’ him.

        What is it going to take for these blind-as-a-bat supporters of his to wake up??

      • goldengrahme

        “Obama is a WARMONGER WORSE THAN BUSH!
        Obama’s created 3 million refugees in the border between Af-Pak”…

        No one or no dynasty surpasses the Bushes in venal, unconscionable and unconstitutional
        behavior. Their crimes against humanity are yet to be fully disclosed and will never be prosecuted. So while we are condemning Ted Kennedy–and rightfully so–let us zero in on the Bush years (including Poppie when Ronald Reagan was merely a frontman for their crime syndicate),
        put them on trial in the court of public opinion.

        How soon we forget. The Obama regime, in the final analysis, may only be the focus of a bait and switch strategy. There is certainly no measureable difference between the Dem and Repub agendas.

        The body count continues to mount around the globe
        aided and abetted by our money, our consent.

        If the terms rich, male, white apply to those escaping justice, they apply across the spectrum. We shouldn’t be cherry picking causes nor personalities from a skewed partisan view.

      • lorac

        I believe his “vote” against the war didn’t count because he wasn’t in the senate yet and didn’t actually vote. Not that the media ever made that clear!

  • hokma

    I read that Huffington Post piece and thought it was dispicable.

    The Kennedy’s were a tragic family because they created their own tragedies. Such as turning on the organized criminals that put them into office, or flying planes in conditions they were not qualified for, or playing football while skiing, or illegal drug use, or raping women.

    We propped them up on a pedestal well beyond what they deserved in life because we wanted a royal family. We just picked the wrong one.

    In watching the service this morning, I could not ehlp but realize that there were three former living Presidents. Ted had turned against all three and made enemies of two – Bush not being one of them.

  • Peggy Sue

    That quote by Oates [whose work I admire] is indeed dispicable. In fact, it makes my skin crawl.

    But I would suggest that wealth has been and still is the key to redemption in the temporal world. People who have money and status and clout are too often given a pass by lawyering up with the best, getting charges thrown out and/or having jury opinions skewed in the guilty party’s favor.

    That being said, I think we do strive for equal justice under the law. But it’s not perfect. And if you have the bucks and influence? Lady Luck can too often trump Lady Justice.

    • Mountainaires

      Yes, we strive, and repeatedly we fail to uphold “equal justice” under the law. But, seeing a person in the full measure of his or her life precludes snap judgments and shallow condemnations. “Justice” is blind in our system–that means we strive to uphold the law despite wealth or privilege, poverty or anonymity.

      I believe that redemption is what life is all about–for all of us, each and every one of us. Kennedy didn’t go to prison; but he impacted other people’s lives profoundly for the positive for 50 years.

      Oates’ argument notwithstanding, in the final analysis, if two lives are lost, it’s a bigger tragedy, is it not, than if one life is lost and another is saved?

      Biblical questions, I know…but I’m just sayin’

      By Kevin Cullen, Globe Staff | August 27, 2009

      http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/08/27/agree_with_him_or_not_you_had_to_like_ted?mode=PF

  • Citizen70

    Maybe if Mary Jo had lived, she could have become the “greatest Democratic senator in history”! And, on another note, why is a Kennedy dynasty ok for the same media pundits who railed against a Clinton dynasty? And, on a third note, we already have qualified individuals to run for the senate seat without having to annoint another Kennedy.

    • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

      most excellent points.

    • Senneth

      I wonder if any of these individuals on the left, extolling the virtues of Teddy, and dismissing the tragedy and horror of Mary Jo’s death would have been willing to offer up one of their own children in Mary Jo’s stead – all to make Ted “the best Senator evah – didn’t think so.

      • lorac

        Good point.

  • Barry 0351

    Ted “O.J.” Kennedy

    • Peggy Sue

      Yes! O.J.’s verdict was assigned strictly to identity politics, where race trumped all. But it was also about money, class and celebrityhood. Does anyone really believe that had O.J. Simpson been an ordinary black man, who nearly beheaded his wife and savagely slaughtered the young man with her that he would have walked on those grisly charges? He had a crack defense team that made mincemeat of the prosecutors.

      Race definitely played to his favor. But money and influence are what they are.

      • getfitnow

        Although I believe OJ “did it” the prosecution did a horrible job.

        • lahana

          My opinion at the time was that the LA police department framed a guilty man.

    • mary

      Barry O

      Right on target!!

      “O.J. Kennedy”…..

      and no, Mary Jo Kopechne’s family should not have forgiven him for the few millions he paid them to shut them up and avoid lawsuits….SHAME ON TEDDY!

  • QUEENIE

    your comments hit me smack in the face.

    “There is no “fortunate fall” for the rest of us and we are not Tom or Daisy Buchanan, either. Stop romanticizing a criminal act.

    There is no redemption here, only a wealthy man who got away.”

    ahhh i remember those days so vividly..

    Vietnam Troop Levels
    Source: Congressional Quarterlies

    1969-475,200

    and a dead young woman left in a car to drown..

    and a wealthy man got away..

    How many who died that year could have done just what Kennedy did ..and more? Had they been born of wealth and could have gotten out of the war and been partying away the summer of 1969……..

  • Tricia Spiegel

    Regarding second acts, most people who have behaved in such a way to cause another’s death never have a chance to prove themselves. They are put away for what they did during the first act and never recover enough to redeem themselves. (A drink driver in my area just got 10 years for those who died in an accident–what’s the difference, really?)

    I agree that Ted Kennedy has some fine accomplishments on his record, but his second chance was possible because of wealth and power.

    I pray that Mary Jo’s family members–those still with us–do not read this and other similar articles. How devastating would that be?!

    I like to believe that we have come a ways from tossing virgins down volcanos.

  • jbjd

    pm317, I teach my students, being well read will enable you to understand the literary allusions that permeate our public discourse. You pulled me in with the title; and you punctuated your message with reference to The Great Gatsby – students generally are bored to tears with this one, except for when I read aloud changing my voice to suit the characters – euphemistically slapping Ms. Oates across the face to remind her, life is not a work of fiction. http://jbjd.wordpress.com

    • pm317

      So what are you saying? Students get bored to tears with posts like mine? or Did I accomplish my goal of conveying my message? Explain. Not being confrontational but curious about your comment.

      • jbjd

        No; on the contrary, I am saying, you are able to make your point by accessing the wealth of the text you reference, with just a few well chosen words. And that children grown up on electronic media mind stimulation lose that ability to grasp complicated concepts in part because they cannot understand when these things are described using literary references.

        • pm317

          OK, thanks. That is what I thought but the line about students threw me off. As I was writing the post, I did exactly what you wrote, read aloud to see the effect of the written words.

          You are exactly right about the current generation and I see it in my own nieces and nephews, cousins of the 20+ generation. They don’t read anything other than their chosen professional stuff. They are driven but their intellectual depth is not quite there.

          • Arabella Trefoil

            That is so true. I’m back in college to get a second degree. The kids are like little robots trained to study and take tests. No spirit of inquiry, no philosophical discussions. Dead, dead look in the eyes.

        • mary

          JBDJ

          Excellent point about today’s children being “technophiles” and how they are being denied previous generations’ rich diversity of literary experience….They are so robotic that perhaps The Caretaker would be the only fiction they’d appreciate. Pinter’s absurd piece of a man who robotically understands life is so *now*!!Feel sorry for these poor kids, especially when their mother doesn’t read to them when they’re young as mine did….stories like Robinson Crusoe, Treasure Island, Tale of Two Cities, Le Miserables, Connecticut Yankee and Hans Christian Andersen tales….I remember fondly reading these classics as a preteenager in a foreign language that was my first. Nothing has paid more social and linguistic dividends since then…
          Thank you!

          • lorac

            From what I’ve seen, the current educational system seems to think the classics are not diverse, are “too white”. Because all white people around the world have the same culture, you know. And they’ve all led privileged lives, even those who were desperately poor (and most poor people in the US are white, but it’s not pc to bring that up!).

            It’s really a shame. The kids today are really missing out on a lot.

    • goldengrahme

      Oh, my, how could any sentient mind be bored with “The Great Gatsby”? IMO, it is the greatest work of our greatest American writer. And I say that in deference to his “This Side of Paradise,” which was also gorgeous in concept and written in what I consider prose poetry.

      Comparing Fitzgerald with our Nobel Laureates and/or much-heralded Hemingways or Mailers–no contest. He was a genius on a much higher level of human perception and literary acumen. Only Shirley Hazzard comes up to this level; but she was born in Australia. I am wondering why she was never tapped for a Nobel in Literature.

      But kudos to you for bringing Gatsby to life for this generation of semi-literates schooled on objective tests and text messaging.

  • Lisa

    Fox was reporting on Kennedy’s funeral on Saturday morning. The commentators were Juan William, Carl Rove, I can’t remember the others. The commentators were respectful but did give criticism in several areas. Paraphrasing Carl, he said that in 2002, Kennedy was pushing for the Iraq war, and that Kennedy, in 2003, was the first one to derail the Iraq war by pushing that there were no weapons of mass destruction. Apparently Kennedy was good at doing things like that, totally for his own political reasons.

  • Portia Elizabeth

    pm317 — your excellent post piqued my curiosity enough to go to amazon and order 3 books on Chappaquiddick. Like everyone else here, I knew the story, but I confess I didn’t know the particulars. Now I can’t wait to read more and find out the details of what happened.

    BTW one of the reviews said something about Mary Jo being found without her panties. Jeez! Does anybody know what that’s about???

    • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

      i have never heard that. now i want to read more about it too!

  • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

    excellent!!

    There is no redemption here, only a wealthy man who got away.

    • Ladydawnelle

      I was a baby when all that happened but it reminds me of CHENEY shooting his friend in the face (and getting away with it)

      just think what heinous crime Bambi (as Pres) will be able to get away with after what Ted (as Senator) and Dick (as VP) managed to get shoved back into their closets.

      It’s a scary thought.

  • ethwrthw4

    To the question, “why we need term limits?” Ted Kennedy’s picture should be plastered next to it.

    Should the public be convinced that he was effective versus complacent for 47 years?

    The real question is, did he use the Senate to hide the fact that he got away with 1969 Chappaquiddick murder because of his family name and monies?

    Or with Obama’s support, fake his own death to distract the world from his specific role behind the scenes in the orchestration and targeted murders and theft of opponent’s wealth accumulated for 7 generations and to celebrated (with new disguise and identity of course) with fellow culprits at upcoming G20 Financial Summit Meeting scheduled on September 25 in Pittsburgh, PA and attended by Obama of course…..

    • jbjd

      This sentiment speaks to me of authoritarianism, each time I hear it. I considered Kennedy to be unworthy of my vote and so, I did not vote for him, as was my right. Obviously, my fellow citizens disagreed, as was theirs.

    • inconsiderable wretch

      Okay, that’s a bit too conspiratorial even for me. The elderly Kennedy succumbed to cancer, and may he rest in peace.

  • robert

    Quit stomping on a dead man’s grave already. Think about forgiveness.

    • ConfusedAmerican

      Hey I am sorry but I think many did pay respects.

      Just because he is dead does not make him a saint now.

      RIght elected Democrats are figuring out ways to use Kennedy to get bills passed. In particular the health care bill.

      I think the time of mourning has passed and it open field.

    • ConfusedAmerican

      Hey I am sorry but I think many did pay respects.

      Just because he is dead does not make him a saint now.

      RIght now elected Democrats are figuring out ways to use Kennedy to get bills passed. In particular the health care bill.

      I think the time of mourning has passed and it open field.

    • Arabella Trefoil

      Who are you to tell me about forgiveness?

      I’ll stomp on any grave I want to, thank you very much.

    • fif

      What about Mary Jo’s grave? I didn’t know she was alive for hours afterward and it was only 8 ft. of water. She could have been saved.

  • Diana L. C.

    pm317,

    I have to agree with tek above. I do not enjoy Oates’ work half as much as O’Conner’s. (I used to think that if I could write like O’Conner, I would be happy enough to give away all my earnings for the privilege.) And as far as F. Scott Fitzgerald goes. . . he himself fed off of the wealthy. I have often thought of poor, crazy Zelda and how she might have been different in the end without him. His writing does make clear the differences between the wealthy and the regular citizens of our country, and it usually is not a pretty comparison for the wealthy.

    As I mentioned at the end of the post below by AGiI, I would rather hold him up to some of the other literary figures, the ones in epic literature that are part of a long tradition of examining what a good leader is, the literature that make up the epics. Our country does desperately need good leaders, but I would not put Kennedy in that genre because he does not hold up well at all compared to them.

    I stand by my comment there. Even back when it happened, I would have far preferred that Ted had made the private choice after the accident out of respect for “that single young woman,” who had as much right to a future as he felt he had as another human.

    If you lived then, even if you were inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and even if you had been a loyal Kennedy fan, it became obvious that Ted was being treated differently because of his name and his money. Everyone in our hearts knew we wouldn’t have come out of the incident so unscathed. To show some real sense that he understood that fact, he should have spent the rest of his life as a private citizen trying to do good for others with that name and fortune that got him off pretty much without a real scar.

    No recounting of the work he did later in the Senate, no matter how good, makes up for the lesson he taught many: that if you come from a powerful family and have money, you get special treatment and you get to be cannonized when you die, while the rest of human kind, we regular American citizens in this country that supposedly reveres the rights of individuals, simply goes into “that good night” as best each one can, excpecting only a small obituary in the local news.

  • Cindy

    Melissa Lafsky (the sick idiot who wrote about Mary Jo on HuffPost) is Jewish…So, using her abominable sense of supposition I guess it would be fair to ask her if she thinks all of the Jews in Auschwitz and Dachau, etc., looking back would say “….yes, but didn’t the trains to the camps run well and on time? Ya gotta give Hitler that much, at least”.

    Sick sick sick.
    Thanks for the post, pm317.

  • tzada

    Like Texas Dave said, “they brought up Camelot, so we can bring up the Lady in the lake.”

    • Arabella Trefoil

      I missed that comment. That’s a good one.

  • HARP

    Did anyone else notice Vicky had a great big hug for Hillary yet barely a peck on the cheek for Michelle?

    • Arabella Trefoil

      I didn’t watch any of the TV coverage. That’s an interesting observation.

    • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

      i did. i was rolling. it was the weirdest awkward cheek kiss fake hug thing i have seen recently.

      • Arabella Trefoil

        Did her hug to Hillary look fake? I would never attempt to hug Michelle. I’m afraid she’d challenge me to an arm wrestling contest for violating her space.

        • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

          it wasn’t even a hug. Vicki held MO’s upper arms and they leaned in to do a cheek kiss, but they both turned the same way, and it was just really awkward. She gave a big long hug to Hillary and Michelle was standing there waiting, and then Vicki went to others down the pew, and MO kept standing there. Then when Vicki returned to MO they had their weird moment.

          I found it – it starts about 1:40
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwCWP0FCwBo

          • beebop

            She was warmer to shrub! And MO looked none too pleased to be snubbed …. bless her heart.

          • pm317

            Good find!

          • jbjd

            OMG, this was fabulous. VK had her arm out waiting to fall into HRC’s arms even as she was still half holding onto President Clinton. It appeared to me that, she was seeking solace from someone with whom she had a prior close relationship, primarily through her husband, perhaps but, equally important to her, on its own. This was no fluke; this was personal. And leaving MO standing there until she had walked to the end of the pew to shake others’ hands, well, that scene speaks for itself.

            • makeji

              When the Lewinsky thing came out, Hillary and Bill went to Hyannisport for their vacation and spent time with Ted and Vicky. I suspect that she and Vicky became close during that time.

          • fif

            At the beginning of the piece, Obama shakes Hillary’s hand and then kisses her on the cheek. Vicki’s hug with Hillary really stands out–it is so full and genuine. Touching. Vicki Kennedy has really shown a lot of grace and authenticity through this whole process.

          • Portia Elizabeth

            Thank you for this! The way she clung to Hillary, it was obvious there’s a true friendship there.
            MO not so much.

          • lorac

            If you keep watching, when Vicki walks back to the other side of the aisle after the hugging, MO’s hand is on the pew, and Vicki puts her hand on MO’s as she walks by. MO looks grateful. Yuk.

    • Scout

      I remember when Teddy was first diagnosed. Even though he had to some degree, stabbed Hillary in the back by backing the inexperienced B0, her public statement was warm and gracious, naming Vicki and “sending Vicki and the kids our love and support.” In contrast, B0′s comment seemed cold and lifeless, sort of like B0 does on most days. I thought at the time that the two responses were very telling.

    • jbjd

      I didn’t see that, after reading your comment, I started to search… Here’s how the NYT described it:

      At the offerings of peace, Vicki Kennedy walked across the aisle to shake hands and kiss Mr. Obama and his wife, as well as former President Clinton. She hugged lengthily Mrs. Clinton before going on to shake the hands of former President Jimmy Carter.

      http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/the-kennedy-funeral/

      • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

        of course they did…

      • Arabella Trefoil

        Maybe she was stalling for time. I wouldn’t want to hug Jimmy Carter. Those teeth always scared me.

    • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

      I think Michelle was falling asleep during the priest’s eulogy.

    • mary

      HARP

      Yes! The huge lovely hug Vicky Kennedy had reserved *only* for Secretary of State
      Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton!!!! It was the longest and most sincere. Too bad Teddy sold out to Obummer during the primary. Maybe she feels slightly guilty???Since Vicky strategized for her husband’s political moves…?

  • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

    I finally found the site I was looking for. It is no longer online, but can be viewed with the way back machine. It is very in depth:

    Timeline of Chappaquiddick -

    http://web.archive.org/web/20041204072343/www.ytedk.com/chapter1.htm

    • oowawa

      Thanks, Sara!

      • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

        oh man, it is so good. I am up to chapter 5. he was such a liar!!

        • Portia Elizabeth

          I just finished reading the entire thing.
          Thank you, Sara, for the link!

          It literally made me queasy to read what happened and how Teddy tried every way he could to avoid responsibility. Now I’m convinced that the true measure of the man was shown in all its craven cowardice after that night. He deserves no respect. He does not deserve to rest in peace.

          • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

            isn’t it gross! and the other two guys didn’t report it either. and showing up with a neck brace? what a liar and coward!

            the pictures help understanding, too.

            so, they lied about the timeline, do you think, so teddy could say he was taking her to the ferry?

            • Portia Elizabeth

              There was an hour or so that’s unaccounted for. That officer who was stone cold sober said he saw the car at 12:40am and even noted the license plate number which checked out later. The people at the party said they noticed it was ~11:15 when Teddy and Mary Jo left because the last ferry left at 11:30pm. I hate to tarnish her memory by saying so, but it doesn’t take an hour to drive that distance if he could walk it in 15 minutes.

              There are just so many telling moments. It gave me nightmares last night to think of her trapped in that car, gasping for air and waiting for a rescue that never came.

    • lorac

      I’ve never been a huge Kennedy fan. Even JFK, as lauded as he is, had a lot of problems. Although, I did think highly of Robert.

      I felt a kind of kinship to JFK’s kids, as I “grew up” with them. But Caroline fell off the radar (only to emerge recently to humiliate herself), so I just followed John Jr. He seemed pretty decent. In a lot of ways, he seemed like a “regular person”.

  • Scranton4Hillary

    A parent hopes and prays that their child will never make a mistake that they will spend the rest of their life paying for. EMK make a horrible, life-altaring mistake. The money and power that kept him out of a physical prison with bars could not keep him from his own personal prison and torments. Knowing that my actions took the life of another person would kill me.

    Alcohol will make fools out of the best of us– for sure.

  • oowawa

    Many of my posts on NQ are attempts at humor (unless I’m talking about animals, and then I never joke). But this is something I have learned and is one of my core beliefs:

    Redemption is only possible if one is really really really deeply sorry for a past action. The sorrow stemming from the past misdeed must permeate every fiber of being. It’s not enough to trust that an all-forgiving savior somewhere will erase the fault. One has to live with the pain of the transgression and with the knowledge that it can never ever be undone or made right, and suffer the blame (not just “the responsibility”) for the wrongdoing.

    And that’s what Lord Jim realizes, and why he is one of the great figures in literature, and ultimately is a noble and successful being.

    Ted Kennedy–was he like Lord Jim or was he like Tom Buchanan in The Great Gatsby? (He was certainly not comparable to Gatsby himself, who was consumed by his romanticism). I think he was more like Tom, but I don’t know. I don’t know what he really felt.

    • pm317

      Oh, Teddy was definitely Tom Buchanan. Here is the exact quote from Great Gatsby:

      “They were careless people, Tom and Daisy — they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made.”

      I agree with your comment. In fact as I wrote the post, I had another thread going in my head but those words didn’t end up here. They were that for redemption, the guilt and responsibility has to be acknowledged completely and there has to be remorse and a willingness and intent to make things right. But in this case the man’s actions resulted in a death. How do you make amends for the loss of life that your actions caused? There is no redemption here.

      • oowawa

        I agree, pm317. The comparison to Tom Buchanan is very compelling. Privileged, powerful folks like that, they own the world, don’t they. To repeat an analogy I used on another thread, they go through life like sacred cows in a china shop, leaving wreckage behind them. Wonderful, evocative post, by the way. Thanks!

  • Tuppence411

    You know, after watching the funeral Mass and learning that Ted himself picked out the scripture passages; I am not so sure he himself was so confident in second acts and redemption. Romans 8 is a passage of reassurance. “Nothing can seperate you from the Love of God.” Matthew 25 is a glimpse of your judgement. Maybe he had doubts. Maybe he wanted to console his family in their moments of doubts. Maybe he wanted to head off his critics…. Who knows??? But it was fascinating for me as a Catholic to ponder his choices.

  • Scranton4Hillary

    RIP Ted.

  • Craig Della Penna

    Teddy was never the brightest bulb in the pack but Chappaquiddick was his defining moment and he failed miserably. I could never stand him after that.
    My only reflection is from Shakespeare: “Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once.”
    I’m pretty certain Teddy died every day he lived.

  • Arabella Trefoil

    RIP coping mechanisms.

  • Arabella Trefoil

    http://www.nytimes.com/

    The nytimes front page has a front page slide show the includes photos of the Clintons greeting the Obamas. Michelle looks like she’s passing a peach pit in the photo where Hillary gives her hug. Check it out before they take it down.

  • tzada

    It’s come to this: Dems task Teddy’s grandson with leading funeral prayer for ObamaCare

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/29/its-come-to-this-dems-task-teddys-grandson-with-leading-funeral-prayer-for-obamacare/

    In the off chance someone has posted this already, I humbly apologize.

    • Arabella Trefoil

      That’s revolting.

      • Lana

        I am speechless. This is despicable.

  • http://shhhithitsthefan.wordpress.com/ ithitsthefan

    Yes, Teddy Kennedy did something despicable. No argument there. So after all these years and all of his good works since you condemn him for that one act.

    Hillary Clinton betrayed her supporters by endorsing and enabling Obama which has brought about the current political nightmare. And yet she is praised.

    It’s an obvious double standard.

    The Politics of Hate

    • Arabella Trefoil

      I love the smell of obot sweat. It smells like victory.

      Hillary has not betrayed anybody. She is serving our country as Secretary of State. We are lucky to have her working for us.

      • pm317

        The finer points of this post are definitely lost on him.

        • Arabella Trefoil

          The Boiler Room Boys are not up to snuff today. I think the obots were all supposed to be doing “grassroots demonstrating” for ObamaCare today.

          So we get the B team watching the blogs.

          • Lana

            Funny!

      • http://shhhithitsthefan.wordpress.com/ ithitsthefan

        She is serving Obama, not our country.

        • lorac

          Why, because she’s a woman? What is she, chattel? If one of the males who had lost had taken the SOS position, would they be “serving Obama”?

          Hillary has always been the most shining example of a public servant. She feels duty-bound to serve her country, which is why she took the SOS position. She’s not somebody’s slave. She’s an intelligent, extremely capable woman who is doing a job. She is serving the country. She’s serving YOU.

      • http://shhhithitsthefan.wordpress.com/ ithitsthefan

        It’s really offensive that you consider anyone (and namely me) that doesn’t agree with your point of view an Obot. I didn’t support the man. I fought against him during the primary and I continue to fight against him. Perhaps you need to open your mind a little.

    • beebop

      You don’t come here often do you boychick?

      Lots of us were plenty pissed that she endorsed him. And then he did zip to retire her debt. But. Hey. You run with your “but but but Hillary” riff. She polls significantly better than he does. Big surprise!

      • http://shhhithitsthefan.wordpress.com/ ithitsthefan

        You apparently think I support either Hillary or Obama. I support neither of them. I frankly don’t care who is ahead in the popularity contest. If you want to support Hillary that is your prerogative. If I don’t support her or any of the other members of the corrupt Democratic party or the corrupt Republican party that is my prerogative. No need for insults.

  • donjo

    How quick we are to judge others.

    Things Are Not Always As They Appear…

    The Weather Bureau said visibility was less than 2 and a half miles and conditions were “marginal” even for an instrument landing by a plane. Shortly after 11 at night, and just before landing at Barnes Municipal Airport in Westfield, Massachusetts, the twin-engine plane made a sharp right turn.

    “My first thought,” he said later, “was that the plane had been hit by lightning.” He looked cautiously about. “I saw black things outside my window,” he recalled. “I could see car lights, but the plane then began a steep climb.”

    Then the plane went down in the apple orchard atop a hill about three miles short of the runway.

    Senator Bayh pulled a badly injured Senator Kennedy from the wreckage, but Zimny and Moss were both trapped in the wreckage. Robert Schauer, who lived about a quarter-mile away from the crash site, was one of the first on the scene and commented about it later to news reporters.

    “There was Ted Kennedy laid out flat beside the wreckage of the plane – in deep pain … but he was more concerned with the comfort of the others. When I reached the plane,” Schauer said. “Senator Bayh was standing beside it trying to gel his wife out. I helped him and we got her free.”

    “Senator Kennedy said ‘See that she’s taken care of first.’ He was on the ground near the plane. We walked Mrs. Bayh down the hill, her husband and I. We tried to get cars to stop for us, but 10 went by without stopping.”

    According to Schauer, “I got them to my house, supplied blankets, called the police and fire departments and went back with some water for Senator Kennedy. When I got back to the plane, Senator Kennedy was still there. He was as cool as a cucumber. He said he had shoulder and back injuries.”

    Zimny was killed almost instantly in the crash, and Moss, a former New England Telephone Company executive, died at 6:15 in the morning at the hospital while undergoing brain surgery.

    Assessments…

    Bayh stated that the plane’s cockpit was “peeled right off and the nose was badly damaged.” The plane was on its belly, the right wing nearly sheared off. The rose-colored plane, with black stripes, still had its red beacon light on the tail lit and rotating after the crash.

    When rescue workers got Kennedy to Cooley-Dickinson Hospital, he had no pulse and his blood pressure “was almost nonexistent.”

    The doctors “took heroic measures including blood transfusions in a successful attempt to rally the failing senator and the efforts paid off,” Press Secretary Edward Martin said, referring to the three units of blood and glucose that Kennedy was transfused with.

    A team of army doctors flown from Walter Reed army medical center in Washington credited Doctor. Thomas Corriden, the hospital’s chief of staff, with saving Kennedy’s life.

    But Kennedy had to endure 10 days of immobility in an special orthopedic bed to permit his broken back, and two broken ribs, to heal,

    Senator Birch Bayh of Indiana suffered torn muscles in his right hip, and his wife suffered two small cracks in her lower back, extending into her spine.

    Schauer said also, “I heard the plane before it crashed. It was sounding normal. Then I heard it plow into the hill. I think they misjudged the hill. The plane was on top of the hill when I reached it.”

    The Civil Aeronautics Board concluded that the probable cause of the accident was the pilot’s improper operation in instrument conditions.

    • Arabella Trefoil

      What does this story have to do with anything? You obots are so out of gas.

      Ted Kennedy was a mediocrity who could have been a great man. He took the easy path at every fork in the road. He is a lesson on what not to do with one’s talents.

      • donjo

        If you’re too dumb to see that he wasn’t quite the crass “murderer” as portrayed on this pathetic thread, then I feel sorry for you. No, I really don’t, because you called me an Obot and I despise the man.

        • http://shhhithitsthefan.wordpress.com/ ithitsthefan

          She called me one too. How ridiculous things have become when otherwise intelligent (I hope) people have devolved into acting like the Kos Klan.

      • http://firefox Martha Washington Collier

        Relax Arabella. It’s merely the resurrection of Teddy. We knew it would happen when he died…heck it started when they announced that he was ill. I expect we’ll be hearing about fantastical appearances, sending the Democrat brethren health care reform messages via dreams or other mystical means…maybe on pizza slices, toast or tree bark.

        These people really believe that we are as immature, stupid and gullible as general membership of the “New Democrats”. Their vapidity, self-righteousness and sanctimoniousness is revolting. As for their brilliant “oracles”…well, I guess we can declare that pretty much another myth.

    • rw

      Very interesting. An accident is exactly that, an accident. That’s not to say there shouldn’t be an investigation and responsibility taken.

  • Arabella Trefoil

    Today a bunch of Obama supporters in my area were planning a demonstration or a teach-in or text-in or whatever. It was an outdoor activity – rain or shine.

    Number one, people are at home watching Ted Kennedy’s funeral. Number two it pouring with rain thanks to Hurricane Danny.

    Yes, the heavens themselves opened up to weep for Ted Kennedy. sniff

    By the way, I’m not sure I like the idea of Obama taking “a short hop” in a plane from Martha’s Vineyard and back again just so he can speak at Ted’s funeral. Small planes are dangerous, as we have been so recently reminded.

  • HARP

    Stolen from a comment on Free Republic:

    I live in two Americas. One is the America I recognize; the one I grew up in and the one in which I am proud. The other is a hollow, cheap and immoral imitation. I saw the distinction between these two Americas as I observed two funerals…one on television and one in my hometown.

    The first funeral was for Edward M. Kennedy, senior Senator from Massachusetts. The other, Jonathan T. Rape, a local boy who died in Afghanistan from a roadside bomb. One was watched by millions and personally viewed by tens of thousands. They lined the processional for miles to get a glimpse as the last light of a by-gone era was finally extinguished. The other was not televised. It was attended by hundreds. A few sporadic well wishers lined the road in show of support.

    In my America, people honored a young boy who loved his country so much he devoted his life to Her. He not only have Her his sweat and tears, but his life’s blood. He did it with no fan-fare…not much pay…and at the sacrifice of himself and his family…leaving behind a wife and young daughter. No Senate bills will be renamed after him. In a few weeks, few will remember him.

    In their America, the masses honored a man who apparently also, as President Obama said, “loved his country.” It is this America, and its equivocating that confuses me. For this man, Ted Kennedy, seems less worthy of a hero’s requiem than Jon Rape. Perhaps this America judges its hero’s and a man’s love for his country differently than my America.

    In their America we have a man, a hero, who was expelled for cheating from Harvard but was allowed back in due to his powerful family connections. This man also served, but was kept out of harm’s way, again because of his powerful family connections. Yes Ted, there are two Americas. You lived in the fancier one.

    This man, champion of immigration reform, put his political weight behind the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, proclaiming in brilliant insight “the ethnic mix of this country will not be upset…. Contrary to the charges in some quarters, [the bill] will not inundate America with immigrants from any one country or area.”

    This man, champion of woman’s rights, drove Mary Jo Kopechne off a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island, Massachusetts because he was drunk. Officials say it is likely she was in the car, alive, for 2 hours before drowning. Needless to say, Teddy got away with this too. You know the rest of the story. There are two Americas. He reminded us of this when Nixon was pardoned by Ford. He found it unfair (but not ironic) that there was not equal justice.

    This man, a patriot who loved his country, attempted to work with the KGB to undermine Ronald Reagan and the United States of America because Russia’s “Peaceful Intentions” were misunderstood by the belligerent Reagan. Their America honors him for this.

    This man, said to have brought civility to the senate, was the chief cause of incivility. During the Bork and Thomas nominations, Kennedy consistently slandered the nominees with outlandish accusations. How civil.

    In my America, a young man took an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. In their America, a politician did everything in his power to destroy the constitution, and was praised while doing so.

    To the charge that socialism has never worked in six thousand years, Ted Kennedy responded “That’s because I wasn’t in charge of it.” That was the Amerika Ted Kennedy envisioned.

    In their America, the media mourns the loss of Saint Ted, forgiving him all his trespasses because he was a champion of the progressive agenda. In their America, your actions don’t matter, only your ideology. In the America I grew up in, there was no greater virtue than a man’s honor. Ted Kennedy had neither.

    So, the masses in the other America will honor their fallen ideological soldier, forgiving his complete moral bankruptcy and selling out their souls in the process. In my America, Jonathon Rape rests peacefully, completely ignored by the masses.

    • Lana

      Very moving. Thank you for sharing it. I think we should send a copy of it to Pelosi and her ilk.

  • tango

    And then you get this kind of crap from Eugene Robinson of the Washington Post:

    “But we sorely miss Kennedy’s moral clarity. He believed our nation has the responsibility to ensure that every American has the right to affordable health care. Perhaps his life as an eternal prince taught him that happiness and salvation lie in sacrificing self-interest for the greater good.”

    Too bad Kennedy didn’t feel he had the responsibility to ensure passengers in the car he runs off a bridge have the right to life period. Maybe he just figured all the way back then, less health care rationing necessary in the future if less people alive. He was doing his part to ensure affordable health care for the rest of us. Yep, what a responsible, self sacrificing prince always thinking of others.

    I’m sure Kennedy’s decades in the Senate and extreme sacrifice by living a very wealthy and powerful life with children, numerous wives and state of the art expensive end of live medical treatment, bring a lot of comfort to Mary Jo’s family all these years later.

  • Mountainaires

    You know, I’m not a huge Ted Kennedy fan but your judgment seems a bit cold. I respect his service to his country, and his dedication to family and to values he believed.

    I’m not a newcomer to history, since I grew up with JFK, RFK, and Teddy Kennedy. I grew up during the 50s/60s. I watched as Lee Harvey Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby; I saw RFK assassinated. So, I’m a bit put off by your “shock, shock” at the historical “second act” bit.

    What happened with Mary Jo Kopechne was a horror. I believe that Ted Kennedy lived every day of his life after that, trying to redeem himself for his actions. It would be a pretty heavy burden for anyone, don’t you think? Ted Kennedy got the chance for a “second act,” as others in history have too; and thankfully he used that chance to do good things.

    Yes, he acted stupidly; yes, he got a lesser sentence because of his family name, and money. Believe it or not, he isn’t the first person to get a second chance and use it wisely.

    Chappaquidick haunted him the rest of his life. Even now, in his death, people choose to remember one moment in a man’s life, instead of seeing the big picture. Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess. But, if Mary Jo Kopechne’s life and death had meaning, it is in the sense that all human beings deserve a chance to redeem themselves.

    Ted Kennedy isn’t the only person in this country to catch a break in the halls of justice. Laura Bush caught a break too; she killed a classmate in high school in a car wreck, and received a minimal sentence. I’m sure she feels excruciating pain even now over what she did; don’t you think Ted Kennedy felt the same?

    Sorry, but this statement is simply overblown hyperbole:

    if a John Doe had made the same mistake as Teddy, he would be rotting in jail for sometime at least with a manslaughter conviction. Instead this reckless human being from a wealthy family got a second act for his “youthful indiscretion.”

    • pm317

      Think of this: if the man had called 911, she would be alive. Instead he went home, even talked to his lawyer and waited 10 fucking hours before he called the police. If that does not sway you, who is cold here?

      There is no hyperbole.. try running your car off a bridge somewhere and leave your passenger to die a horrible death and see what you get in a court of law when you do plead you left the scene of the accident and you were the driver? They may even give you 1st degree murder conviction if they find evidence of possible motive to rid the other person’s life.

      • Portia Elizabeth

        But Ted was “punished”.
        He got two months probation.

      • rw

        Don’t think 911 had been instituted on Martha’s Vineyard in 1969.

        • pm317

          May be the police, then. How difficult is it for a 36 year old senator to call for help?

          • Diana L. C.

            As the timeline provided in the link above shows, he could have easily gone for help. He lied about not being able to get to a place to call sooner.

      • Mountainaires

        Here’s a fact long forgotten and always ignored:

        Mary Jo Kopechne was drinking and partying alongside Teddy Kennedy and the other aides. She made the judgment to get in the car knowing they were all drinking. So, the question is: Does Mary Jo Kopechne bear any responsibility for her OWN CHOICE on that day?

        • pm317

          wow, this takes the cake!

          Go ahead acknowledge any good he did given his second act. But leave aside the classic “the rape victim was wearing too short a skirt” defense. Shame on you.

    • beebop

      Maybe your other screen name is Legionnaires?

    • http://shhhithitsthefan.wordpress.com/ ithitsthefan

      I agree with you. How can anyone possibly pass judgment upon a man that did so much good as a legislator to help countless Americans based upon one horrible mistake he made 40 years ago. I’m no huge Teddy fan. I parted ways with him when he endorsed Obama. But I recognize and appreciate the good he did after that horrible mistake. It’s not just being cold to dwell upon his faults without also honoring his positive contributions, it’s dishonest.

      • pm317

        oh, boy.. how stupid can you be. Read the post slowly and try to understand what I am saying. If you still don’t get it, get the fuck off of this thread.

        • Mountainaires

          Do you always just try to bully when you can’t make a cogent argument, pm317?

          Who are you to tell people they’re “stupid” or they should “get the fuck off this thread?”

          Your comment is a disgrace to this blog. You really ought to try to compose yourself and present something that you know no one will disagree with, if you can’t take differing opinions.

          • pm317

            My cogent argument is my post. If you don’t read the post and go on making irrelevant comments this is what you will get. I wrote this post. This is my thread. If you don’t like what I say, you don’t have to participate, you can just walk past to the next one.

            • Mountainaires

              This is YOUR thread? Oh, please. Maybe next time you just just end your post with a disclaimer:

              I’m only posting this so I can have responses which applaud my brilliance. If you disagree, you’re “stupid” and you can just “get the fuck off this thread.”

              It’s patently laughable.

              Nothing I’ve said is “irrelevant” in the least. You’ve issued a judgment, several judgments, in fact. I’m responding to them in turn. You are free to respond to my comments or ignore them, of course, but I don’t think you have the right to tell me to “get the fuck off this thread.”

              http://www.newsweek.com/id/214252/output/print

    • tango

      Well come on. So lets see: recently turned 17 year old high school student Laura (Welch) Bush chatting with her friend as she drives along, runs a stop sign at 8pm at night when it’s dark out, hits a car going the other direction and that driver dies. She stays on the scene for the police and is not drunk per the police reports.

      Then you have a 37 year old Teddy Kennedy, quite possibly driving drunk since he said he was leaving a party, runs his car off a bridge, swims to safety and is unable (or unwilling) to save his passenger, Mary Jo. Rather than call the police immediately, he goes back to the hotel, takes a nap, calls a lawyer, etc. Doesn’t report the accident for 10 hours. By the time rescue authorities reach Mary Jo, she’s dead.

      So yes, both deaths are tragic. But I would say that Ted Kennedy’s age, status and actions AFTER the accident are considerably different than Laura Bushs so it’s not really a fair comparison.

      • Mountainaires

        Point taken. Thanks for the reasoned argument. And, I believe I already covered that in my initial comment. But, there is a comparison when one considers the victims themselves. Laura Welch’s victim had no responsibility for his fate; Mary Jo Kopechne was drinking and partying herself, and got in the car with a man she knew had been drinking. Does she bear any
        responsibility for her choices on that day?

        As I said, the entire event was a horror; a tragedy. As I said, Kennedy’s behavior on that day was horrible.

        I maintain that the sweeping assertion by pm317 that ANY other person–any other “John Doe”–would be in prison is simply hyperbole, and cannot be supported by numbers; it is not accurate.

        • Diana L. C.

          They were BOTH responsible for what they were doing. Please read my comment below to the other commenter who blames in some sense the Kopechnes for not going after Kennedy. But her error in judgement, I do not believe, was an error that would get the death penalty. pm317 has tried to get through your thick skull that Ted’s could almost me considered murder–at least manslaughter–a much more serious offense, one that is far more egregious than being much younger and being drunk and then losing your sense of judgment.

          I hope you do not have daughters or sons if you would judge them so harshly.

        • lorac

          Were you even alive in ’69? People did not have the awareness of drunk driving that they do now. For heaven’s sake, they didn’t even wear seat belts back then! I agree with the poster who said you’re blaming the victim.

          (And wouldn’t you think a truly remorseful person would have gotten help for his alcoholism after killing someone?)

        • Portia Elizabeth

          Actually the state of Massachusetts sets an automatic punishment of no less than 20 days in jail for the crime of leaving the scene of an accident. If you were to add in driving with an expired license, driving under the influence of alcohol and driving with a record of violations (as noted in the state of Virginia where he lived while in the Senate), any normal person would’ve been looking at serving serious time in a penal institution. But because it was a Kennedy and in Massachusetts, everything but leaving the scene was conveniently overlooked. Then, because he was who he was, the “automatic 20 days” was reduced to a suspension for 2 months.

          So yes, he cheated the system and no, it isn’t an exaggeration of fact.

    • lorac

      “I believe that Ted Kennedy lived every day of his life after that, trying to redeem himself for his actions”

      With his lifetime of womanizing, drunkenness, protecting guilty relatives, or the backstabbing of Hillary? Just curious which you’re referring to.

      If he had wanted to redeem himself, Mr. Catholic could have admitted the truth and then lived a life more respectful of women.

    • lorac

      “I believe that Ted Kennedy lived every day of his life after that, trying to redeem himself for his actions”….. (“one moment of his life”…????)

      With his lifetime of womanizing, drunkenness, or the backstabbing of Hillary? Just curious which you’re referring to.

      If he had wanted to redeem himself, Mr. Catholic could have admitted the truth and then lived a life more respectful of women.

  • vanroth

    To be honest, I really had not bothered to find out about what really happened at Chappaquiddick till a couple of days ago. All I knew about till then was that he was in a car crash with a young lady not his wife, she died and he survived and it ruined his chances of ever becoming President.

    And what I read shocked me. Its unbelievable that the man got away with it just because of his powerful family name and connections. The story is so disturbing on so many levels, it leaves you aghast at the obvious miscarriage of justice that enabled the scion to literally “walk away” without any consequence other than a mild rap on the knuckles – which was perfunctory driver license suspension. That one incident tells me enough I need to know about Teddy Kennedy’s true character.

    RIP Mary Jo.

    • pm317

      That is exactly what happened to me and why I wrote this post. I thought highly of the man until I read about this incident and then how people were making excuses for him and even praising him and dismissing the loss of her life as collateral damage.

      • http://shhhithitsthefan.wordpress.com/ ithitsthefan

        I mean no disrespect (sincerely) by this comment but where have you been to have not studied American history? I certainly do not remember any Kennedy family member dismissing Mary Jo’s life as collateral damage. Nor any intelligent, compassionate human being.

        Perhaps some political commentator said something to that effect like perhaps Chris Matthews. But I don’t watch the idiot so I wouldn’t know. I do know, as someone who lived through the era in which this tragedy took place, that no one joked about it (except Rich Little) or excused his behavior. He was indeed given a second chance and many chances after that by the voters of Massachusetts. Whether or not he deserved that chance is not my place to determine. But his many good works since then made me glad he received it.

        • pm317

          Listen, you buffoon, this whole post is about people (like Oates and others) calling Mary Jo’s death a worthwhile sacrifice because it made Teddy clean up his act and work hard at redemption and become the great senator he was. READ the post.

          • Mountainaires

            Stop it, pm317.

            If you can’t take disagreement with your opinion, then stop posting them on a blog that gives others the right to express their own opinion in response.

            This is what you call “literary expression?!”

            “Buffoon!”

            “Stupid!”

            “Get the fuck off this thread!”

            You’re losing control, and bullying people who haven’t been the least bit rude to you, but have simply offered their own opinion.

            The question you yourself offered up was this:

            Who gets to decide who gets a second chance?

            Apparently, you get to decide that Ted Kennedy didn’t deserve a second chance–and your basis for arguing that is that he had money and a family name.

            Your argument has little merit other than an oppportunity for you to express your shock at discovering Chappaquidick!

            Well, welcome to the club, newbie!

            Some of us have known about it for our entire lives. So pardon us if we don’t share your judgmentalism, since we’ve watched an entire life picture of a man who tried very hard to redeem himself after such an enormous life event.

            • pm317

              Oh, I am so sorry my language hurts your sensibilities. It was intended ONLY for ‘ithitsthefan’(what a handle). But if you think it applies to you, you are welcome to leave the thread. Please don’t subject yourself to my bullying.

              On the substance of your comments, I am not interested in them because they are standard boiler plate. Read Eleanor Clift from yesterday — she says it better than you do.

              • Mountainaires

                It doesn’t hurt my sensibilities in the least. It’s simply that its bullying behavior. It’s unwarranted.

                I’ve already read Eleanor Clift, and I agree with her; yes, she said it much better than I did. But, that’s why she’s rich and famous, and I’m just another “John Doe.”

                Unfortunately for you, my initial response to your blog post said the same thing she said in her column.

                So, your rude bullying and overblown hyperbole was what was irrelevant to the real point, which Clift made so very well.

                • Portia Elizabeth

                  I really think you are over-reacting, Mountainaires. pm 317 has always been polite and respectful on this site, but even the most deathless courtesy is lost on some people. Anyone would lose patience when, after repeatedly having the main point explained to them, a poster continues to go off rail and then becomes offended when they’re called on it.
                  As was mentioned, if you don’t like the tone of a discussion, you have the option to withdraw.

  • yttik

    “What perplexes me the most is that nobody can answer why Teddy deserved a second act.”

    It’s probably best to just stay perplexed, but if you want an unpleasant explanation, the truth of the matter is that many liberals have no problem sacrificing someone, especially a woman, for the good of the collective. Kennedy pushed forth a liberal agenda, which must be accomplished by any means necessary.

    I’m not speaking as a right winger, I’m speaking as a long term liberal who always has been aware of how this philosophy leaves many women under the bridge.

    • pm317

      Some of it is literary expression to spur debate. I agree with your explanation.

      • Mountainaires

        Well said, “ithitsthefan.” Thanks for your point, I too find it a little disturbing to watch revisionist history being made here by a blog post in which the poster himself admits he never even knew about the event until recently.

        But, after calling people who disagree with his perspective, pm317 reacts by calling them “stupid” and telling them to “get the fuck off this thread,” before he resorts to his own excuses with this:

        “Some of it is literary expression to spur debate.”

  • Diana L. C.

    Maybe now that Mechelle can finally be proud of our country, she can find a way also to be proud of the Corps of Engineers, too. It’s so confusing to me that the reasons that make some people proud are so different from the reasons that make me proud.

    I used to have such a high opinion of the Corps of Engineers. I remember thinking that they could figure out a solution for anything like building bridges, roads, damns, and levees. It was the “yes, we can” attitude that impressed me so much. I guess, like Obama, it’s now “well, maybe we can’t.”

  • beebop

    I hope that this is not totally off topic (but one of you is bound to point it out if it is …. )

    When RR announced he had Alzheimer’s Disease in 1994, I wondered how long he had been suffering the effects and whether or not some of it could be found in his actions in office in his final days in office. Similarly, what part of the brain tumor EMK was later diagnosed to be suffering from may have played a role in the behavior that led to his supporting BHO? Perhaps the Clintons undertand. Perhaps we are seeing the largest Kennedy family tragedy play itself out on the American republic?

    • Peggy Sue

      That’s a really interesting point, beebop. My dad was diagnosed with Alzhheimer’s, and then went on for 20 years [getting progressively worse]. For a long time, he was very good at hiding the symptoms. But these brain maladies sometimes creep on us but still impair our judgment and decision making abilities.

      My husband’s boss had brain cancer and for months before the diagnosis was made, he was coming home telling me outrageous comments the man had made to him, told him he was glib, a man without substance. Really hurtful things. After my husband heard about the brain tumor, he wondered if the comments weren’t a product of the disease itself. Because it was so out of character.

      Interesting theory.

      • oowawa

        After my husband heard about the brain tumor, he wondered if the comments weren’t a product of the disease itself. Because it was so out of character.

        When somebody close develops a mental illness or severe personality disorder and becomes, frankly, abusive and unearable, the thought that it might be due to a brain tumor or some other physical cause seems like a mitigating comfort. At least there is something physical there that we can try to deal with. It would explain something that is otherwise pretty much incomprehensible. If somebody close died after an abusive and violent life, wouldn’t it be a relief if the autopsy revealed a brain tumor? It wasn’t their fault; they couldn’t help it.

        As far as Kennedy supporting BHO–I don’t think we can ascribe that one to physical mental deficiency. After all, he backed the winning horse, and who knows what deals he made to help make that happen. Politics as usual.

        • oowawa

          unearable=unbearable

          actually, I guess “unearable” works too–you just can’t stand to listen to them anymore . . .

  • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

    Oates is an i d i o t. I wonder if she ever stopped to think about substituting her own daughter for Kopechne. Would she feel the same way then?

    Ted Kennedy was merely a civil servant who for the most part forgot he was supposed to serve us instead of the other way around. Remember–everything he did was financed by us, the taxpayers. How hard is it to make up ways to spend other peoples’ money? More than half the legislation he ‘championed’ was in his own self interest (to garner votes), unconstitutional, and/or abhorrently wasteful.

    Dynasties and royalty have no place in the USA–they are precisely what our founders risked their lives to free us from. I hope the delusion of the Kennedy dynasty is finally over.

  • elise

    As a child, I spent a lot of time in church. My father was a minister so Sunday morning, night and Wednesday nights were de rigeur. My dad was stern an talking or passing notes, not paying attention to his sermons was not allowed.

    As an adult, I rejected the fundamentalist beliefs of my parents, but lessons of a lifetime aren’t easily forgotten. In my mind, I can still see the image created in my mind of a God with a long, white beard sitting in front of a large book with pages divided into Good or Bad.

    Every lie I told and every disobedient act was listed there, but I could never think of a single argument to convince God I was a good girl. I knew He knew my sister and I passed notes and whispered in church.

    I wasn’t yet a woman when Jack Kennedy died, but by 1968 I was active politically and supporting Gene McCarthy for president,then Robert died and Hubert Humphrey won the nomination. I went to a Columbus Day Dinner and to a fundraiser at a private home after and Sen Kennedy was there. I was introduced to him by a friend.

    I was a young woman, but I had met some pretty powerful people. Ted Kennedy was different. He drank too much and he didn’t smile much and I didn’t hear the laugh so many of his friends have talked about in the last few days. He was nervous and his eyes constantly moving, but there was so much sadness there. I never saw him again in person. Those are just my personal memories.

    Chappaquiddick was end of his chance for the presidency and that’s the way it should have been. If the God of my childhood had his book, that was a powerful sin for him to balance. It would require of lot of checks on the Good side.

    So some tool on Huffpo waxing poetic decides Maryjo was a sacrifice on the alter of Ted’s spiritual growth. So what? Did Oates ever ask him if he felt empowered by her death which in turn led him to serve his country for forty seven years? The Kennedy name carries some heavy weight in MA.

    His family was rich. His father was an Irish immigrant who made his money as a bootlegger. Almost the American dream, but not quite. His brother had been president and was assassinated. Another brother died as a fighter pilot in WW2 and his last brother was assassinated. A sister was rendered a vegetable by a botched lobotomy.

    Back to God and His book. There were some other things on the “Bad” page. He drank too much. He cheated on Joan. Did he redeem himself? Would God consider some check marks on the “Good” page that might balance his sins?

    Devotion to family
    Devotion to country
    Loved by his friends
    Steadfast in his ideals
    Loved music
    Loved dogs
    Infectious laugh
    Generous with time and wealth
    Faithful to his second wife
    Stood with the poor
    Stood for Civil Rights
    Stood for the disabled

    I’m glad I am not God. I might be tempted to judge him for his endorsement of Obama and rejection of Hillary. I might be too impressed with this larger than life man or his name and I might let pity for the tragedies of his family cloud my judgement. I might be tempted by nostalgia for the dreams of earlier decades when it felt like America could do anything, accomplish anything, to be able to turn him away from heaven because he once was a callow and spoiled young man responsible for the death of another person.

    But, I believe in karma, not heaven and hell so I’ll leave judgement to the people with the BOOK.

    • rw

      Nice, well expressed piece of personal history.

    • pm317

      This post is about the rule of law, and class-based inequities in society that gives a chosen few a chance at a second act. Redemption through his life’s work is almost irrelevant when you think about the special consideration he got in 1969. On top of it, the post is a commentary on some of these very visible people making/writing comments like it was worth it for Mary Jo to die because look at all the good work Teddy did because of that guilt. Oates calls it the fortunate fall. I want people to be good and decent and do magnificent work without the need for a fortunate fall (such as the loss of a life because of your actions.)

      • Mountainaires

        This post is about the rule of law and class-based inequities in society that gives a chosen few a chance at a second act.

        The argument that Kopechne’s death was “worth it” because of Ted Kennedy’s life of service is as shallow as your argument that Ted Kennedy’s “second chance” proves that only a “chosen few” get one.

      • Diana L. C.

        Pm317–I get your point. I agree with your point. I have not, perhaps, made myself clear. He got a second chance by not being prosecuted to the full extent the way almost everyone else without money or pull would have been prosecuted.

        I would feel far better about his good works–those that elise listed, for example–if he had done them as a PRIVATE citizen–out of the public eye. Redemption is something you do humbly. If you go with religious explanations, you do it humbly because you know you don’t deserve it. It is not a right; it is a gift.

        I did not see Ted as a humble man as he was doing his good works later. I did not see him changing his ways in regard to the same behaviors that he exhibited at that party until he married his second wife–perhaps. But maybe that also had a lot to do with his growing older and being less sexually attractive, too.

        The Kennedys knew better than to suggest that Mary Jo was not worth him. But I’m saying that if I were in his family, I would have expected my relative to show his remorse privately so as not to continue to rub salt in the wounds of her family.

        Most of us judge through our own experiences. All I know is that I would have been so incredibly ashamed of myself for leaving her to die like that, I might have done my redemption by going insane. I don’t know how he lived with himself in public as he did.

    • lorac

      “A sister was rendered a vegetable by a botched lobotomy”

      I read an article a few years ago that said that this sister was merely high spirited and independent. They said that she didn’t need the lobotomy, but it served the family’s purposes.

      • Portia Elizabeth

        That’s truly horrifying if true!

        • Kathleen Wynne

          What’s truly horrifying is that Papa Joe decided to have his daughter lobotimized because he was afraid, because of what was perceived as a mental slowness, as she was growing more mature, he was afraid she would be sexually promisuous and hurt the family image and his political ambitions for his sons! Also, he never told Rose that he was having this done to their daughter. Rose Kennedy was devastated when she found out. Although she could look the other way with Joe Kennedy’s rampant womanizing, she could never forgive Joe for doing this to Rosemary.

  • arran

    pm317 — I’ve been reading about the Chappaquiddick accident to figure out why he didn’t call for help. The diver the next morning estimated that Mary Jo had found an air pocket and probably lived 2 hours or more before being asphyxiated. There was an occupied house, with an outside light on, 150 yards away. Why didn’t he pull her out along with himself, or find something to smash the window and get her out? Why didn’t he telephone for help from any of the houses nearby? My first instinct would have been to rescue her.

    Of course, he might have said something right after the accident, or there might have been something at the scene of the accident, that would have incriminated him. He left in order to lawyer up and get off.

    • vanroth

      His first and only instinct was self-preservation, physical and political. Girl gasping for breath be damned. What is remarkable is that he explained his outrageous behavior that night by suggesting that he himself had suffered some head injuries and so was not in a position to think clearly. But this supposedly confused man swam back to his hotel that night, indulged in small talk with a couple of people, complained about the noise coming from a party, and went to sleep in a warm bed. Not only that, the next morning he had breakfast and chatted to some folks showing no indication of any distress due to the disastrous night before. It was only after the body was found the next morning and he had talked to his lawyer that he went to the police.

      To say that this strange conduct was because of “head injuries” is nonsensical. He was out to save his political ass and he succeeded. Pretty well at that.

    • http://firefox Martha Washington Collier

      You can bet that the Kennedy Damage Control Team went into high gear as soon as he got to a phone. I always assumed that the long wait for the police report was an effort for some of the alcohol content to diminish in case they tested him. They weren’t about to lose the last brother to his own selfish disregard.

  • srthage

    To the question, “why we need term limits?” Ted Kennedy’s picture should be plastered next to it.

    Should the public believe that he was actually effective versus complacent and enjoyed luxury and privilege instead after 47 years?

    The real question is, did he use and hide in the Senate as he got away with 1969 Chappaquiddick murder because of family name and monies compared to the average Joe on the street who would rot in jail for the same crime?

    With Obama’s support, did Ted Kennedy faked his own death to distract the world from his specific role behind the scenes in the orchestrated murders and theft of targeted opponent and wealth accumulated for 7 generations and to celebrate (with new disguise and identity) with fellow culprits at upcoming G20 Financial Summit Meeting scheduled on September 25 in Pittsburgh, PA naturally attended by Obama?

    Under close and independent scrutiny, it is people like Ted Kennedy that confirms our country can’t afford not to have “Term Limits” ASAP!!!

  • Portia Elizabeth

    Something bothering me about all this praise for EMK is that people keep talking about all the great things he did as a senator. To my thinking it is the job of a senator to write bills, to promote causes to represent his constituents. The man had that job for nearly 50 years. 2500 divided by 50 = 50. So fifty bills per year – many of which were actually written by others and sponsered (which only requires signing onto a bill) by EMK. 50 bills a year is less than one per week. I wonder how that record stacks up against Hillary’s – or any other senator’s – term in the Senate.

    My point is that if it was his job, why is it so remarkable that he did it?

    • oowawa

      What strikes me about your post, Portia, is the thought of how much legislation actually gets through every year. Considering that much of that legislation is pork-barrel and promoted by special interests, how in the world can we continue to survive after having been buried in that continually growing mountain of legislative paperwork?

      To my Senators and Congressmen: quit doing great things for me!

      • Portia Elizabeth

        Exactly!

        I don’t consider a bill to declare a National Sweet Potato day as something to brag about on one’s resume. (hypothetical example there)

  • catherine

    Truly disappointed with Oates. This is all so vile how disposable some of these soulless sycophants believe some people are in comparison to others.

    We will never know what great things Mary Jo may have accomplished because Ted Kennedy DENIED her that chance.

    And to somehow suggest that his legislative accomplishments JUSTIFY the extinguishing of life of a bright 28 year old woman is on par with those who say that under “Mussolini the trains ran on time” so lets forget about all the other stuff.

    The Kennedy/Obama worshippers just keep sinking lower and lower into the slime while castigating and pontificating to the non-worshippers.

    They don’t even realize how they’ve become the political equivalent to televangelists. An object of scorn and ridicule. Of gross and ugly hypocrisy.
    They are distorting and damaging liberalism much in the same manner that these self-rightious-holier-than-thou tv clowns have harmed Christianity.

  • Thinker

    Yet if one weighs the life of a single young woman against the accomplishments of the man President Obama has called the greatest Democratic senator in history, what is one to think?

    -

    This quote is very telling, and it’s extremely said that it was written by a woman.

    What I think, is that Ted Kennedy was a low-down, cold-hearted monster to leave that woman to die. He was guilty of at least manslaughter.

    No amount of legislation he helped pass will erase that. Yes I am judging him. No one is perfect, but gotdang, there’s just some things that you just don’t do, and walking away from an accident that YOU CAUSED, leaving your friend there to die is one of them.

    He should have been in jail, and quotes like that one reminds me of the place that women hold in this society. I strongly believe that if he had left a man to die, there would have been more outrage. But MARY JO KOPECHNE was just a single woman in some people’s eyes, her life having no value.

    I’m beyond angry that this killer was left off the hook for killing a woman, and the media is trying to canonize him. I’m livid.

    For all we know, Kopechne could have decided to have a career in politics and helped pass legislation. Kopechne’s unborn child could have run for office and made the world a better place for all of us.

    F*** Ted Killer Kennedy

    RIP Mary Jo Kopechne

    And to answer the question, I think most people do deserve a “second act”, but if they have broken the law, especially for something like a DUI that resulted in manslaughter, they should do their time in jail first.

    • lorac

      Plus, IMO the second chance should be merely the freedom to try again. You should have to work to regain your previous level. A second chance shouldn’t be waltzing right back into privilege and power. You should have to prove yourself first, after your transgression.

  • TeakWoodKite

    PM317, as I’m reading your post, HBO was showing Bill Clinton, introducing Senator Kennedy at the DNC midterm convention 1978. He spoke of health care and how rich people were able to access the best health care and poor people had very little.

    “…not a privilege but a right”.

    I do recall reading an article that the brakes where cut on his car, as the road he was driving was a “T”.
    But that was a along time ago and I have always wondered why he did not save MaryJo given the coroners report.

    The other thing the HBO had were tapes of Nixon and Haldeman having conversations about getting the goods on Kennedy. It’s quite fascinating to hear Nixon say in response to Kennedy wanting Secret Service protection that “after the election he will get no protection, if he gets shot, too damn bad.” (from memory).

    Nixon had a thing for the Kennedy’s and in particular Ted. He was asking for wiretaps on Kennedy anything to get some dirt to destroy him with.

    • catherine

      Not to defend Nixon but considering all the dirty tricks the Kennedys played on him during the 1960 election …most historians agree it was probably stolen from Nixon. I would’nt blame him for his utter contempt for the Kennedy brothers.

    • pm317

      Hi Teak, how have you been? don’t see you commenting much.

      Interesting about Nixon and Ted Kennedy. This is perhaps the end of line for the Kennedys. I remember reading somewhere that Obama was thought to be more approachable (as opposed to Hillary) for all the younger Kennedys to advance their agenda and therefore Teddy endorsed Obama. But I don’t think Obama will do much for them. Obama is for Obama.

      • TeakWoodKite

        Hey Pm317, I have been busy with the grandaughter and the wind pulling me afar, but the breeze is fair.
        I brought up Nixon, because as Ted swam for the surface, he was more concerned about being caught than the life of MaryJo and knew that Nixon was gunning for him.

        What is not reported on much is the event Kennedy attended before the “accident”.

        Great topic. Thanks. :)

        • pm317

          What happened in the event before the “accident”?

          • TeakWoodKite

            On July 18, 1969, Kennedy attended a small party on Chappaquiddick Island, near Martha’s Vineyard, Mass. After 11pm, he left the party with Kopechne, a former campaign worker for his brother Bobby’s presidential run, reportedly to return to their hotel rooms.

            A small party. Odd phrase. Who else was at this party?

            catherine; Nixon was a son of a b. and Haldeman?

            • http://firefox Martha Washington Collier

              Hillaryis44 had a post the other day about how and why Teddy orchestrated the election of 0zer0. It all adds up to me…he was behind the whole thing. It didn’t just pop up like a mushroom on its own. It was planned by Teddy.

              I always considered that Bobby was the last Kennedy to matter. He exhibited a real metamorphosis after JFK died which in many ways mirrored our own.

              Teddy? He continued to drink and womanize. I never saw a changed man. His first wife, mother of his children, went through alcoholic hell as well. I think she died a few years ago. I didn’t see a hell of lot of compassion for her.

              • sandi78

                Joan Kennedy sought help for her alcohoism and has been sober since 2004 or 2005. They remained close after their divorce, and in the last few months of his life she lived in her home nearby the Kennedy’s home on Cape Cod. She attended her former husband’s funeral yesterday. IMO, there has been and still is, a lot of compassion for Joan.

        • http://firefox Martha Washington Collier

          I thought it was a party of Kennedy political insiders and female campaign workers.

  • Patience

    I was a young teen when the Chappaquiddick incident occured so add me to the list of those who didn’t know, or didn’t care to know, the gory details until the last few days. It’s been quite a revelation.

    To say Sen. Kennedy was chastened and inspired to be a better legislator because he caused a woman’s death is ludicrous. HE WANTED TO BE PRESIDENT. His father’s political ambitions were thwarted because he was a Nazi sympathizer during his tenure as ambassador to GB, much to the disfavor of FDR. JFK made it to the White House, RFK was on his way — it was the ambition of each of the Kennedy sons. Sen. Kennedy challenged the incumbent president of his own party in the 1980 primaries. He wasn’t considered the Lion of the Senate then. He was trying to fulfill what he may have considered his birthright.

    His behavior regarding the Chappaquiddick incident was sociopathic. There’s simply no other way to describe it. What sickens me as much, now that I know what I know, is that voters of MA, his legislative colleagues, and most of the media have brushed this behavior aside. Other political careers have been ruined or at least besmirched for much much less.

    We have no way of knowing if someone else would’ve taken up similar causes in the Senate. We have no way of knowing if someone else would’ve assumed the role of dealmaker.

    I didn’t read her book Black Water (a fictional re-telling of the Chappaquiddick incident) but I recall Joyce Carol Oates took heat from some liberals because of it. Maybe her appalling statement is a sort of epilogue to try to redeem herself in the eyes of those who criticized her.

  • glennmcgahee

    Now that people are just learnng about this accident will soon look into other historical happenings involving women in the Catholic Kennedy family.Years after that accident, we had a rape by Kennedy’s nephew at the family compound in Palm Beach. That was the end of Camelot in Florida. The home was closed and sold as women came out of the woodwork to report the partying by the fun-loving kennedy men down here. Good times people.
    http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20114953,00.html

  • IndieDogg

    Let me make a point, and incur some wrath at the same time.

    Please take note: I am saying this for the sake of illustration of the logical vacuity of Oates’ article, not because I am advocating what follows.

    However, if you follow Oates’ (supposed) logic, it would be fine if I were a renowned scientist and physician who worked tirelessly for the poor, cured cancer and the bow-legged, and made the ozone layer behave — if I wanted to eat a few babies on weekends. Hey, the greater good (as defined by ME and MY friends) is worth a sacrifice here and there.

    [You know what's worse than anything said yet? Under all of this moral equivalence debate is the silent question, from the "who cares" side: "Who was this Mary Jo anyway and what would she ever have amounted to, compare to Teddy?"]

    You know who is shamed in all of this? Her parents. If some old fart recklessly endangered and then killed my daughter (and I have two), by gross negligence to start and moral indifference and self-service to finish her off, I would have either killed him myself or, if a more rational person, sworn a vow to expose the sot-trash frat boy who killed her. Where is Mary Jo’s father? Where is her mother? What have the Kennedys bewtowed upon them – friendship – cash – who knows what – what could possibly be worth the life of your daughter – to keep your mouth shut and the autopsy that never was, destined to never be?

    Anyway, I’ve got some great ideas to solve the deficit thing, end the bothersome wars we’re in, balance the budget while giving everybody more of everything — so can I eat a few babies this weekend? You all down with that?

    Thanks.

    • IndieDogg

      Excuse me for commenting on my own post, but it just occurred to me that a response to this point might be:

      “Hey, you’re exaggerating to make a pointless point. Balancing the budget and eating babies is hardly the same thing.”

      In other words, you have to “balance” the benefit against the loss. Wow. Doesn’t that sound reasonable? Kind of like trading baseball cards: I’ll give you three Milt Farmer for one Mickey Mantle.

      Well, it might sound good but there’s a problem:

      Anybody heard of rationing health care?

      It’s a myth, right?

      Cost vs. Benefit? Never heard of it.

    • Diana L. C.

      I am guessing on a few things here, as I’ve pondered the same question about Mary Jo’s parents.

      One thing I’ve decided is that time really does make a difference. I can’t judge them by what I would feel now. My own sense of what is the better course to address wrongs has changed as I’ve lived through lots of wrongs.

      I was also a young adult at that time. I am guessing that the parents suspected what many suspect: that Mary Jo had been dallying (sexually) with a married man that night. At that time in our history there was still a great stigma in the minds of middle America against a young woman who would do that. The sexual revolution was just taking hold. Kennedy and many in his family were obviously of the Old World mindset of the European nobles: all the young underclass women were theirs to “feed upon” sexually so to speak.

      There are Samual Richardson novels that address just this: Pamela must fight desperately to preserve her purity. Clarissa is driven to death for the same reason.

      There were six married men and six single women at that party–perhaps in the Kopechnes’ hearts they were preserving their daughter’s reputation by not fighting the Kennedys.

      As another commenter mentioned, most parents pray ardently that their children do not do something stupid that will haunt them the rest of their lives and, perhaps, ruin their lives. I think the person mentioned this in regard to Kennedy. But I think it may also be valid to think of this in regard to the Kopechnes.

      And I think they felt totally financially and emotionally unable to face the Kennedy machine, too.

      Now please do not take this response on my part to feel that Mary Jo deserved her fate, even if she had sex with Kennedy that night. I do not. It was just the sad state at that time that a young woman could still be made out as sinful and low for what any young man did that was considered just boys being boys.

      • Frikken’s Lunch Box

        I am thinking you hit the nail on the head, Diana. At that time, it would have been turned around to be entirely Mary Jo’s fault and her reputation would have been tarnished. She would have been made out to be the vixen that seduced poor Teddy.

        • Diana L. C.

          If you read the timeline link above, you discover that as he was consulting his lawyers, while she was dying, he DID try to get them to lay the blame on her and claim SHE was driving the car.

          They argued against it because they didn’t know if she even knew how to drive (which wouldn’t have been surprising at that time). So the wheels were in motion early to make it seem to be her fault.

      • connie

        Diana, they even made a son about it later on. I can’t remember the name, but the learics say, “if her daddy’s rich you take her for a meal, if her daddy is poor, you do what you feel.
        This seems to capture the essence of the Kennedy men.
        I think the name of that song is saffron.

  • jess

    I’ve never been a Joyce Carol Oates fan so don’t put much stock in anything she says or writes. And every time I hear the name Kennedy, I think of 28-year-old Mary Jo Kopechne. I’m the mother of a young woman so I can easily put myself in the place of Mary Jo’s mom. This hoopla over Ted makes me sick.

  • Diana

    The main problem with Ted is even if you forgave what he did to Mary Jo, or decided to give him a second chance. Ted 2nd through who knows how many other chances. How many others were paid to keep their mouths shut?

    Everyone I’ve seen post on this in his favor seem to forget about all the other that worked on the legislation, it wasn’t a one man act. Plus it sure is coincidental that each time something came out that could jeopardize him, one of these fabulous bills came from Teddy. That he was the only one that got credit for the work. Even if it had been in the works for years and Teddy just signed on at the end.

    The murder of a woman. Sex with underage girls? How many? The waitress sandwich. Getting his nephew off from rape when it was never proven he was even there or knew what was going on. Sex with lobbyist in public place while he was married. Etc. Women’s groups with the same mentality we’ve seen since his death ignoring all the above. These aren’t groups protecting women’s rights, these are Democrat groups. Or perhaps one of them would like to tell me just how many women are expendable? Where is the line drawn?

    In 1990, GQ magazine ran a devastating profile of Kennedy. Two 16-year-old girls near the Capitol startled by a limo rolling up, the door opening, Ted sitting in the back with a bottle of wine, asking one, then the other, to join.

    A former aide who acted as Ted’s “pimp.” His penchant for dating women so young that one did not know he was the subject of many books. Kennedy, at a swank DC restaurant with his drinking buddy Chris Dodd, throwing a petite waitress on his dinner table with such force that glass and flatware shatters and goes flying. Then Ted throws her on to Dodd’s lap and grinds against her. He is interrupted by other waitstaff. He is later caught in the same restaurant, in a semi-private area, having sex on the floor with a lobbyist.

    In 1991, Kennedy’s nephew William Kennedy Smith is charged with rape. Kennedy Smith had been out drinking with Ted and Ted’s son Patrick at Au Bar in Palm Beach. Kennedy Smith is eventually acquitted, and it’s never proved that Ted had any knowledge of what happened on the Kennedy grounds that night. He remarried, in 1992, and very publicly domesticated himself.

    But the tawdriness — the ostensible elder statesmen getting s – - t-faced and picking up women with his son and his nephew; the acquittal won, in part, by shredding the accuser on the stand and in the press; privilege winning out, always — is in such stark contrast to Kennedy’s politics that you have to wonder: Is this really what Kennedy thought of women?

    Most feminists don’t think Ted Kennedy was a misogynist. Upon news of his death, NOW, Emily’s List and Planned Parenthood all released emotional, laudatory statements. It’s true that Kennedy’s legislative record deserves such a response. And he was quiet enough in the last 15 years of his life that it’s not hard to minimize his past behavior if you want to.

    For full article from Washington Post:
    http://tinyurl.com/l55wyb

  • Margaret

    Well, I guess a woman’s life is expendable. Horrifying. But disgustingly, it does fit with all the misogyny we’ve been seeing. He could have saved her life. What worse character could a person possible have?

  • Ana

    I’m sure this has already been mentioned, but I was unable to scan through all of the comments to your article. I am absolutely stunned that someone who penned “Black Water” as Joyce Carol Oates did would make these statements nearly 20 years later. Oates’s novella centers around Chappaquiddick and the importance and value of the victimized woman which is lost in the shadow of a careless man (“The Senator”) and his career. Her work teaches us to remember and humanize the victim despite the “spin” of the one who lives to tell the story. It seems she has become one of the people for whom “Black Water” was intended.