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How Will The Baucus Bill Affect Us?

My well meaning, but decidedly Obot, sister sent me an article from alternet.org recently written by a lesbian mother detailing the additional financial difficulties we face when we are on our partner’s health care coverage (“Unbelievable: As A Lesbian Mother, I Have To Pay More For Health Care“). Well, I can appreciate her alarm, but honestly, no freakin’ duh. We haven’t just been blowing smoke when we claim that there are over 1,000 federal benefits to which we are shut out since we can not be married legally in the U.S. And, big surprise, the article culminates in a call to support the Obama Health Care Plan so that we will be treated like everyone else.

Um, I’m not so sure that’s going to be a help. But first, my response to my sister so things stay in context, and to explain why the ire on the writer’s part:

Thanks, but I I am well aware. (My partner) and I pay taxes on my insurance through her company since we cannot be legally married. My insurance amount is treated as a benefit to (my partner), thus taxable income under the federal/state system.

Well, considering Obama claims the Baucus plan is the plan he wants (today – it could be different by tomorrow), it’s not gonna be a whole lot more in savings according to this Washington Post story, “Alarm Bell On Health Reform“:

The Democratic senator from Oregon has been the Energizer Bunny of health reform for the past five years. This week he lobbed a big rhetorical stink bomb. Wyden warned publicly that the package being crafted by the Senate Finance Committee would cost lower-income Americans too much and give many people too little choice of insurance plans.

Under the Finance Committee proposal, individuals would be required to obtain insurance. But to drive down the cost of the package, Montana Democrat Max Baucus’s Gang of Six — a gang that pointedly does not include Wyden — trimmed the size of the subsidies available for those who could not afford insurance on their own. Now, a family earning three times the poverty level — $66,150 for a family of four — would have to pay up to 13 percent of their income for health insurance. And that’s just the premiums — not counting deductibles, co-payments and out-of-pocket expenses.

“I don’t know very many working-class families who you can look in the eyes and say: ‘Do you have that kind of money in your checking account?’ — because they don’t,” Wyden told me.

Those without coverage would face a fine of as much as $3,800, unless costs exceeded 10 percent of their income, in which case they would be given an “affordability exemption.” In other words, they wouldn’t have insurance, but at least they wouldn’t be penalized for it.

Nobody ever told the folks carrying the public-option signs all over America that 85 percent wouldn’t even get to choose it,” Wyden said. “For hundreds of millions of people, they’re going to have no more leverage after this bill passes than they do today. They work in some company, some person they don’t know in the human resources department decides what’s good for them. Nothing has changed.”


Bear in mind, Wyden is actually an ally of Obama’s. Yikes.

I concluded with some questions about how all of this would affect us personally, including getting in a little dig particularly about the Federal taxes which didn’t look like they are going to change anytime soon given Obama’s Justice Department’s characterizing us as pedophiles or “incestuous relatives” in its support of DOMA. Ahem.

The Wall Street Journal had not yet come out with its editorial on the Baucus Plan at that time, “Public Option Lite,” or else, I would have just sent that to her, and highlighted this Obama mailer they thoughtfully provided:

Remember this? Yeah, WHO’S plan is going to levee fines?? Sheesh.

I won’t reprint the whole thing here – it is worth your time to take a look, but here are some of the pertinent paragraphs:

Everyone would be forced to buy these government-approved policies, whether or not they suit their needs or budget. Families would face tax penalties as high as $3,800 a year for not complying, singles $950. As one resident of Massachusetts where Mitt Romney imposed an individual mandate in 2006 put it in a Journal story yesterday, this is like taxing the homeless for not buying a mansion.

The political irony here is rich. If liberal health-care reform is going to make people better off, why does it require “a very harsh, stiff penalty” to make everyone buy it? That’s what Senator Obama called it in his Presidential campaign when he opposed the individual mandate supported by Hillary Clinton. He correctly argued then that many people were uninsured not because they didn’t want coverage but because it was too expensive. The nearby mailer to Ohio primary voters gives the flavor of Mr. Obama’s attacks.

And the Baucus-Obama plan will only make insurance even more expensive. Employers will be required to offer “qualified coverage” to their workers (or pay another “free rider” penalty) and workers will be required to accept it, paying for it in lower wages. The vast majority of households already confront the same tradeoff today, except Congress will now declare that there’s only one right answer.

Hold the phone for just a second here. Yes, Clinton’s plan did call for mandated coverage, but OBAMA was the one who said she was going to have fines, not Clinton, a charge she consistently disputed. And if you want a reminder of the two plans, Clinton’s and Obama’s, here’s a LINK to Paul Krugman’s good article in which he highlights those differences.

Now, back to the Journal’s Editorial:

The subsidies in the Baucus plan go to people without a job-based plan and who earn under three times the federal poverty level, or about $66,000 for a family of four. Yet according to a Congressional Budget Office analysis we’ve seen, the plan isn’t much of an improvement over the current market.

Take a family of four making $42,000 in 2016. While government would subsidize 80% of their premium and pay $1,500 to offset cost-sharing, they’d still pay $6,000 a year or 14.3% of their total income. A family making $54,000 could still pay 18.1% of their income, while an individual earning $26,500 would be on the hook for 15.5%, and one earning $32,400 for 17.3%. So lower-income workers would still be forced to devote huge portions of their salaries to expensive policies that they may not want or be able to afford.

Cough, sputter, what??? We’re going to be spending HOW MUCH? Oh, but wait, there’s more:

Like the House bill, Mr. Baucus uses 10 years of taxes to fund about seven years of spending. Some $215 billion is scrounged up by imposing a 35% excise tax on insurance companies for plans valued at more than $21,000 for families and $8,000 for individuals. This levy would merely be added to the insurers’ “administrative load” and passed down to all consumers in higher prices. Ditto for the $59 billion that Mr. Baucus would raise by taxing the likes of clinical laboratories and drug and device makers.

Mr. Baucus also wants to cut $409 billion from Medicare, according to CBO, though the only money that is certain to see the budget ax is $123 billion from the Medicare Advantage program. Liberal Democrats hate Advantage because it gives 10.2 million seniors private options. The other “savings” come from supposedly automatic cuts that a future Congress is unlikely to ever approve that is, until this entitlement spending swamps the federal budget. Then the government will have no choice but to raise taxes to European welfare-state levels or impose drastic restrictions on patient care. Or, most likely, both.

***

To sum up, the Baucus-Obama plan would increase the cost of insurance and then force people to buy it, requiring subsidies. Those subsidies would be paid for by taxes that make health care and thus insurance even more expensive, requiring even more subsidies and still higher taxes. It’s a recipe to ruin health care and bankrupt the country, and that’s even before liberal Democrats see Mr. Baucus and raise him, and then attempt to ram it all through the Senate. (Emphasis mine.)

Gee, they make this sound so good, where do I sign up?? Ahem. As Bronwyn’s Harbor pointed out in TWO excellent posts this week, there will be incredible costs to all of us that are being masked, or simply unmentioned, by our esteemed elected officials. Looks like the WSJ has had enough of that subterfuge. Let’s hope more sources will expose these plans, too.

I guess I’m getting an idea of just how this might affect us after all…

  • jwrjr

    “by our esteemed elected officials.” Esteemed? By whom? That is like saying that Robin Hood was held in high esteem by England’s rich class. Except that this time they are robbing the poor to subsidize the rich.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Those without coverage would face a fine of as much as $3,800, unless costs exceeded 10 percent of their income, in which case they would be given an “affordability exemption.” In other words, they wouldn’t have insurance, but at least they wouldn’t be penalized for it.

    Which means the status quo for those on the bottom end and more needed money out of the pockets of everyone else except the fabulously wealthy. All this bill does is exacerbate current problems with bureaucracy and redundant, unnecessary paperwork and does nothing to answer the real problems

    Who programmed these automatons who come up with this crap? I think they should ask for their money back–and ours, too, while they’re at it.

  • yttik

    This 66,000 for a family of four probably sounds reasonable for a wealthy congresscritter, but in many parts of the country, that’s barely making it. Between housing, food, and the price of gas, many families don’t have 13% of their income just laying around waiting for congress to tell them what they have to spend it on.

    This is also a set up, part of the funding comes from fines they hope to levy against people. When you plan to get some of your funding from fines imposed on working class people who can’t afford insurance, that just stinks.

  • Ferd Berfle

    This is also a set up, part of the funding comes from fines they hope to levy against people. When you plan to get some of your funding from fines imposed on working class people who can’t afford insurance, that just stinks.

    That One and his minions are robbing hoods, with emphasis on hoods.

  • http://www.rabblerouserruminations.blogspot.com/ Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy

    Well, that’s just it, isn’t it? They aren’t even thinking abt the deductibles and all of that!

    They haven’t a clue, as you said, how much things cost, how hard it is to make ends meet, how the idea of “”disposable income” is sliding away, and now what little bit people might have for, say, SAVINGS, or COLLEGE, are going to have to go for ins. or they get fined? (Okay, a little dramatic license taken, but you get the point)

    Amazing.

  • Tammy

    These guys are fricking insane.

    The poor and middle class will be absolutely screwed under this plan.

    How many times do I have to say this:
    Throw the damn bill out and START OVER.

    And bring in a panel of doctors, patients and insurers who know what they’re talking about, and let THEM work out the solutions.

    Can these Congress people do ANYTHING right?
    Sheesh!

  • Katmoon

    And imagine if let’s say gas prices go up again to 5.00, like the last time summer of 08-just for fun- not becuase they have to, and what that did to people on limited income. So health care goes up, over and above must be paid, so you have to work more hours in order to pay your insurance, which also makes child care go up, and community services, because people are on the roads longer. Then you have the effect it has on the economy, people don’t have as much to spend, so groceries and goods go up.
    But hey all is well, you can just drive your GM(government motors) car around to get what you need. That is if you have anything left, becuase of course your taxes, not related to health care, will have gone up as well. remember you don’t have a choice in this, you will put out more money no matter what. so this b.s is exactly that, b.s.

    The deal is funding is not available to pay for those who do nothave health care for whatever reason. Fine, I think they should be covered, but tell me how you are going to force someone to keep coverage? I can see it now, what if someone is a JW, and refuses health care coverage? Ok, and how about the pertual abuser of health care, who is not disabled nor poor becuase of lack of circumstance, but because they are a lazy ass. They aren’t going to be forced to work are they? But we still get to pay for the care, becuase it is the right thing to do. This is from the Baccus Bill

    It is anticipated that people with
    disabilities would also eventually be able to purchase coverage in a reformed health
    insurance market.pg. 31

    With what???????????????

    There is also reference in the bill that actually what is being offerred is medicaid for all those who cannot afford coverage; and of course those 55 or older will be reviewed to have less specialized coverage and more comprehensive general coverage; as well as interventions to help decrease the poor health of those 55-65, therefore making their care less expensive.

    Cue Great White North again!

  • Ellen D

    Cue Great White North again!

    Don’t blame Canadians for this.

  • Katmoon

    Hopefully you are not serious Ellen, I am only refering to “Take Off”, and the Cuckaroo music at the beginning; there is nothing inferred in relation to Canadian anything, from this Abenaki.

  • Katmoon

    Bob and Doug McKenzie

  • Karma

    The horror show continues.

    Double h/t found at Confluence linked to Cannonfire

    http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-you-probably-dont-know-about.html

    “Senator Baucus’ proposed bill, if enacted, would induce employers to fire low-income workers, especially single women with children. And those same employers would have all sorts of motivation to hire illegals.

    Why? Because the rules affect employers in ways that differ from what you’ve been given to understand.

    Let’s say that you are Nancy, a 28 year old single parent. You work for a company with 50 employees. Your entire family income is only two or three times the poverty line. Your boss, under Baucus, would now have to pay for your health insurance and for your kid’s insurance.

    Now let’s say Tabitha comes along and applies for a job at your firm. She’s married to a guy who makes $70,000 a year and she does not have kids. Since her family income is sufficiently above the poverty line, the boss does not have to pay for her health costs. Believe it or not, that’s the case.

    There’s another job applicant: 18 year-old Barbi, who has a rich dad. No need to subsidize Barbi.

    Naturally, your boss now wants to fire you and hire Tabitha or Barbi to take your place.

    Here’s the kicker: Adelina, an undocumented worker born in Guatemala City, also wants work. Your boss has to pay not one dime of her health care. Thus, she is now — in certain ways — more desirable on the job market than Nancy is.

    Making sure that the health bill does not cover illegals makes illegals more likely to get American jobs.”

    The link referenced in Cannonfire’s post which goes into more detail.

    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2907

  • Prime Obot

    Amy, I feel like I keep trying to roll the same rock up the same hill:

    There is zero chance that Obama will support the Baucus bill. None whatsoever. The bill is already DOA. House and Senate progressives will never support it and no Republican will ever support it. It’s done and gone. The only thing that matters is what kind of bill does emerge now from the negotiating rooms between House and Senate Democrats. You guys are just bashing Obama with the Baucus bill for the fun of it. It has nothing to do with the White House; never has, never will.

  • Prime Obot

    “Throw the damn bill out and START OVER.”

    Which bill, Tammy? Six bills have now been reported out of Congressional committees. The Baucus bill is essentially an insurance company wish list. The House bills are much more progressive, would be much, much better for average Americans. Surely you don’t want to throw them out and start over? Because surely you realize that if we don’t get real reform this fall, we will not have any real chance for years afterward? And for millions of Americans, that will be too late?

    Obama has come further than any president since LBJ signed the Medicare law in ’65 to getting major health care legislation through Congress. And depending on how strongly progressives stand up for the public option, we could actually pass a law that changes this country dramatically for the better. We all need to be fighting for a public option now, not insisting that Congress start over, which is tantamount to giving up on this country.

  • http://www.rabblerouserruminations.blogspot.com/ Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy

    Oh, I share your frustration, PO, I surely do.

    Obama HIMSELF aligned himself with the Baucus Bill.

    See, we actually do research here at this site, and that’s how we know Obama brought up the Baucus Bill all by himself when he spoke at Univ. of MD. today. Yes, he did. So, not so DOA, it would seem.

    Oh, and PO? I’m not doing your research for you, even though you dismissed out of hand my post WITH research from some pretty reputable sites like WaPo and the WSJ, but even Huffington Post has something abt this if you don’t trust sources like, say, The Hill.

    Oh, dangit – I just can’t help myself – I’m a giver – how abt this little piece from MSNBO- will THAT mean something to you? Pay special attention to Paragraph 3: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/16/2071448.aspx

    So you see, it isn’t just US who are putting the two together – Obama is himself.

  • Karma

    Watch the love turn when Obama mentions Baucus. And he isn’t exactly running from the bill.

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/baucus-billed-booed-obama-rally

  • CentralMass

    Good Day Eh?

  • Donna Brazile

    Damn Prime Obutt the bill that Obama’s been trying to sell. That’s right—— there isn’t one so what exactly is Obama out there peddling?

    Stop the sellitfest!

  • http://www.rabblerouserruminations.blogspot.com/ Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy

    Oh, Karma – there we go with our facts again! :-)

    Thanks!

  • Prime Obot

    First of all, I appreciate your responding civilly and with facts and links. Truly, I do.

    However.

    The fact that the president is paying lip service to a bill he sacrificed several months waiting for it to emerge from the Senate Finance Committee does not mean he does, or will, support it, as any sort of final product. Obama wants the votes of conservative Senate Democrats, so of course he must pay lip service to a bill that tries to save money, account for their concerns, whatever. I can’t pretend to take the Baucus bill seriously. It’s a joke, and trust me, Obama knows it’s a joke.

    What’s frustrating to me about so much of the commentary on this site the past few days — yes, including yours — is that everyone seems to be assuming that the bill we’re looking at right this instant — the Baucus bill — is some kind of finished product. Nothing could be further from the truth. There will now be a series of intense negotiations between various committees, then between the House and the Senate, all presumably being influenced (to whatever degree he can) by the President, behind the scenes. What we should all be doing now is fighting for the principles that we consider most important. I wish I could say, after reading almost everything there is to read on NQ about health care for the past few days, that I knew what most people on this site want to see in a health care bill.

    I know what I want: a strong public option that will remove the terror of bankruptcy, illness or death from millions of Americans while holding down the growth of health care spending. Period. Any bill that doesn’t have this will be, in my opinion, a huge failure on Obama’s part, and I will be here on NQ saying so loud and clear if it comes to that.

    But I don’t even know if most NQers want a public option. I can assure you Hillary does. Do you, Reverend Amy? Based on everything I know about you I can only assume you do. And if Obama delivers a bill that includes a public option, are you going to give him credit for one of the most important pieces of progressive legislation in our lifetimes?

  • SHV

    And bring in a panel of doctors,
    *********
    Baucus had them arrested at the first committee meeting.

  • carolhaka

    OT but this is URGENT!

    OMG!

    Putin is meeting with executives with General Electric (Immelt is on Obama’s Economic Recovery Council), Morgan Stanley and TPG.

    TOMORROW, as in the day after he give Putin his wish to remove the missile defense system.

    SOMEBODY IMPEACH THIS FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT NOW!

    CAROL HAKA :evil:

  • Just Me

    Clinton’s plan had three problems, 1) Doctors who treated patients not covered by the plan could not get payment for treating patients in the plan; 2) complete equality — it was not possible to buy greater or lesser benefits, “one size fits all”; 3) determined number of residents in each specialty.

    These would all have been curable. It was otherwise a reasonably good plan. Pay for it with a VAT or sales tax and eliminate employer healthcare and you really have something.

    To bad we had the some thing that is happening right now happened to the Clinton plan and so it died… Who suffered really?

  • Tammy

    Throwing the bill out is tantamount to GIVING UP ON THIS COUNTRY?

    Gimme a break.

    This “rush” to get a bill passed is stupidity.
    I want them to do it RIGHT not do it fast.

    Oh, I see, it’s a “crisis” and you don’t want to waste it.
    You’re an Obot.

  • Just Me

    PS: I have no problems with people being fined who refuse coverage… None at all

  • carolhaka

    OMG!

    Rachel Mad-idiot is devoting her show to the murders in San Francisco as though someone has killed someone today! And, of course, that is all Tweety could talk about.

    They are the biggest bunch of race baiting creeps I have ever seen!

    The Blood will be on their hands if anything happens.

    CAROL HAKA :evil:

  • Prime Obot

    I lost a long post to oblivion. I’ll try again with a short one.

    Thank you for the civil response, Rev. Amy. I do appreciate that. I would only note that part of Obama’s job right now is to keep as many Democrats on board as he can — like, all of them — so he of course will pay lip service to the Baucus bill. But the only question that matters is what kind of bill emerges from the next few weeks of conferences.

    And my question for you, Rev A, is simple: what kind of bill do you want to see? A public option, I assume? And if we get it, will you give the President credit for achieving it?

  • Karma

    Happy to help.

    And truly, I wish the Obots would realize that us Dems at NQ aren’t having fun ‘bashing’/pointing these things out about a Dem president.

    I wish Obama was less like Bush almost everyday and would love to praise him for something. But each day Obama proves he is just as much of a corporate whore as Dubya was. Closed door meetings….ugh

    Being consistant with our politicial views is simply another inconvenient fact for Obots.

  • Prime Obot

    Tammy, if you don’t believe that we face a major, looming health care crisis in this country, then I can understand why you’d be willing to just give up for another few years. But anyone who has done any studying of the current health care situation knows that America faces national bankruptcy in a matter of years if we don’t turn around the cost spiral immediately. So yeah, it’s a crisis. And no, we cannot afford to waste this opportunity. And we won’t. We’re going to get a good bill, and we’re going to get it signed before Christmas. Mark my words.

  • Obamastolemycountry

    Do you have a link? Want to send it along!

  • Diana L. C.

    And, while I love Hillary and think she would have made a far better president and would have done a better job of presenting her plan, I am still holding out for TRUE health care insurance reform and true medical care reform. Nothing in any of the plans presented gives me any confidence that they would work well and be run efficiently. I hate waste, and right now I’m still greatly annoyed about the federal taxes I’ve contributed to ACORN, for example. And there is no way that O or anyone is going to convince me that it will all pay for itself. (Hmmmm……let’s name all the programs that were also supposed to pay for themselves and have not lived up to the promises.)

    First of all, there is no freaking way insurance companies should be in bed with Wall Street and making the enormous profits they do so they can give humungous salaries and benefits to the executives. I believe health insurance plans should all be regulated much, much more than they are. Start with that. I believe in profits for business, but reasonable profits, not profits at the expense of people’s health. And I do know that supposedly that is what would happen with the public option, the trigger, the co-op plan suggestions; but somehow I am not convinced the theory would pan out.

    Secondly, find a way to develop more community medical care entities and charities, in the spirit of public schools. These do not in any way have to have the stench of Wall Street or the corruption of the federal government attached to them. If we’re all going to pay more for this through our taxes or through mandated insurance coverage and fines for lack of insurance coverage, I’d just as soon pay it to local or state government rather than to the federal government, where I can’t keep as close an eye on how our money is being managed. Just as our children have a right to a public education, each community should provide its citizens with a right to certain medical facilities which provide a range of services that the communities decide are necessary. (Insurance coverage could then be reduced to providing for the extra medical care not available within the public system. It would be like the difference between term life insurance and AD&D insurance.)

    These are harder reforms to bring about and ones that no one is talking about–except a few nurses and doctors, etc. But if we didn’t waste so much time on politics, posturing, and playing games, and if we just begin to fix the system from the bottom up, we may eventually get it right.

    I know the inequities in the public school system because of the disparity in taxation levels between wealthy communities and poor communities. But I also know that the state government might then be able–as our state is making the effort–to arrange to do some “leveling.” People would be far more inclined to help a poor community in their own state rather than one thousands of miles away in another state, where they couldn’t expect ever to see any accountability in terms of how the money is speant.

    So, yes, at this point, I would like the reform idea to go down in flames as I’ve not seen a plan I like.

    Call me selfish. But I am not a person who has a cadillac plan, and I would be devastated financially if I developed a catastrophic illness of some sort. I am older than my mother was when she died and only six years younger than my father. I have a pretty basic health plan. If I spend $1,000 in out of pocket in a year, that’s a very bad year for me. I eat right, don’t smoke, don’t drink, and get plenty of exercise. My goal it to leave this earth quickly, without spending much to prevent my demise when it gets to that point.

  • Donna Brazile

    Prime Obutt:

    Yes, the meme that something is better than nothing! Quite frankly, that belief is BS!

    Stop the we have to do SOMETHINGfest!

  • Linda C

    You mean someone is really on their partner’s health care coverage? We either pay at a higher rate if we are luckily enough to get some coverage, or aren’t entitled to any. I love the “family income”. Let’s just wait how they “define family”. If it is anything like how they do it in Ohio we will be screwed again. In Ohio you are defined as a family if it makes you ineligible for help in one program and at the same time defined as single as long as it makes you ineligible for help another program. Therefore you never get help.

  • Diana L. C.

    Here’s my answer, though you didn’t ask me: NO

    (See my comment above.)

  • Diana L. C.

    Donna,

    I keep saying it: I really, really like you much better than that poser who worked for the DNC during the primary. You rock!!!

  • bayareavoter

    AMEN!

  • elaine

    That Hillary poster reminded me of this, “Hillary Clinton’s Mandatory Insurance Plan Is An Attack On the Middle Class, group says” by Shari Schneider…over a million bucks in contributions from the health insurers

  • Mary

    True, but nobody’s watching Rachel or Tweety anymore. Their primetime numbers are about 500,000 a night, as opposed to O’Reilly’s 3 million.

    Rachel and Tweety are “feeding the base,” but losing more and more viewers every day, especially Independents who are sick of the race card game they play.

    Why do you think MSNBC pushed Leno NOT to retire?

    If Leno fails, MSNBC fails.

  • Mary

    You’re correct. The Baucus Bill is the group the WH has “quietly” worked with the whole time, making deals with pharma and insurance companies behind the scenes, sending Rahm to Baucus to firm up the details.

    Our resident Obot is incredibly naive and poorly informed not to know that.

    Obama’s speech virtually endorsed the Baucus Bill and threw the House public option bill under the bus. When Obama said he would not sign a bill that added to the deficit, it was his way of saying he will not endorse the House Bill, because it increases deficits.

    Baucuscare IS Obamacare.

  • http://rabblerouserruminations.blogspot.com Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy

    Diana, a very impressive post – thank you for laying it out so clearly.

    The points you raise are so critical, and they are why many of us who supported Hillary and her plan cannot support the ones being pushed out now.

    And I completely understand abt your personal health ins. situation. Before my partner started working where she is, I couldn’t get any decent coverage because of pre-existing conditions. Some guy at BCBS wanted to sell me a policy that would NEVER cover anything related to those conditions for over $400, his “logic” being that if something really bad happened, I’d be covered (with a huge deductible, of course). I told him that for that much money (this was a few yrs ago), I could lease a Lexus, have a lot more fun each month driving it, and if something that bad happened, I would be covered under the state’s plan. Sheesh. (And like you, I do all the healthy things, too.)

    So yes – ins. reform is a must.

    And Diana, I’m sorry abt the loss of your parents. May you have many years on this earth.

  • http://rabblerouserruminations.blogspot.com Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy

    That’s just it, Linda, G – HOW are they going to define “family”? And if they define it to include US, then don’t they have to rewrite the tax laws? Just asking.

    And I am lucky, btw – my partner works for a good co., but like I said, it is TAXABLE to us, and it surely adds up over the course of a year.

    Wow abt Ohio – that’s terrible!

  • Donna Brazile

    Thank you! It frustrates the hell out of me for people to say, “Something is better than nothing.” No, if you go to the doctor with a broken leg and he tells you in order to treat it you need to take some cough syrup. You are no better off than if you did nothing. But his suggestion made you waste money because you bought medicine that doesn’t work in addressing your health need.

    Stop the hurry and do something that will not helpfest!

    P.S. Just for old times sake– my momma says the “rulez are the rulez.”

  • http://rabblerouserruminations.blogspot.com Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy

    PO, I appreciate your willingness to continue to engage in debate.

    Here’s the thing, though, despite the numerous connections between Obama and the Baucus Bill, you simply refuse to accept it. This bill has already been packaged – they have been working together on this. So, it is really hard to continue debating without accepting that very basic premise.

    I do think it is important for Americans to have health care – I was (am) a staunch Hillary supporter, and supported her plan. But that is NOT the plan they are pushing.

    Here’s just ONE of the huge, huge issues I have with it – and a survey just came out abt this – many employers will end up NOT offering health care as a benefit at ALL, thus forcing EVERYONE into the public option. And THAT seems to be the goal of this Administration.

    Moreover, doctors have already said they will drop out of medicine should this get through, and far fewer students are applying to med school. How are those of us, potentially ALL of us, going to get the health care we need?? Will we indeed get it in a timely fashion so that our health isn’t endangered? I don’t see how.

    There are just so many problems with these bills as they are put forth, particularly the Obama/Baucus bill.

    The individual costs alone as described by Wyden and the WSJ are shocking. Between this and the newly released TRUE costs of Cap and Trade – SURPRISE – $1,000 more each household than Obama said – will, as I said previously, make the concept of “disposable income” for all except the very rich, a thing of the past. We will be forced to continue working longer and harder to merely march in place. And that seems to be the point, too.

    I believe in my personal responsibility to help others less fortunate than I am, but I do not want to lose my house because the government decides to do that for us. These programs will tax us so heavily that we can no longer afford to live where we live or pay our bills. That’s unacceptable to me.

  • Ginger

    Obama is never going to commit himself to any bills as he wants deniability for the next elex.

  • Ginger

    We need to shit-can this notion that somehow there is ever going to be a good healthcare plan arise from this debate that is ever ongoing and realize that we are too big, too diverse in comparison to other countries that offer govt healthcare.

    The best (or worst) we can hope for is that there is a harsher look at the HMO’s that rose up from the healthcare debates of ’93 and were enacted by Bill Clinton.

    Perhaps a merger, of sorts, between for-profit and non-profit HMO’s to help minimize inflation.

  • carolhaka
  • to77

    Just me,
    If you read the article, accepting the coverage means paying between 12-15% of your income for low-middle class families or face a 8-10% fine and still not have coverage. If I had 15% of my income available to buy health insurance I would do it through a private company. That’s the problem, families of 4 that make $40,000 a year (like mine) cant afford the $500 I was quoted. But under the government plan I would still be REQUIRED to come up with it or be fined.

    You must have reading comprehension issues. This is not about helping families it is about controlling them. That is socialism/libralism whatever.

  • to77

    People live in a fantasy world who want European style socialism.

    I have good friends who live in Italy who were just here visiting with us. Let me explain to you what “free” universal health care means to them. They make 1500 euro a month for a family of two (that puts them at just above US poverty level and in the 10% tax bracket). They pay 700 euro a month in taxes to the Fed government. For that they receive health care and “social security”. A family that makes the equivalent of $19,500 per year is paying about 45% in income tax. That same family in US would be paying $120 in income tax (after exemptions) and $35 in SS. That would provide them an additional $550 disposable income for which a family of 2 could “choose” a very good private plan (and still have money left over).

    You are lying to yourself and the country if you believe this could be paid for by just taking from the uber-wealthy and it is not going to make it harder on the lower/middle class. That is what is reflected in the Baucus plan.

    This is where the libs/Dems are driving us. Again it is not about helping it is about controlling.

  • to77

    Tammy, if you don’t believe that we face a major, looming health care crisis in this country, then I can understand why you’d be willing to just give up for another few years. But anyone who has done any studying of the current health care situation knows that America faces national bankruptcy in a matter of years…

    Yes and spending $1,000,000,000,000 more will help the country from going bankrupt. And this number DOESNT include the tens of millions that will be dumped by there employers when they realize they can save billions by letting them move to the government plan or the millions who currently are illegal immigrants who will be granted legal status and qualify.

    Here are the facts:90% of americans have health care coverage and between 70-80% (depending on the poll) are HAPPY with what they have. Coverage, quality, cost. That is a higher satisfaction rate then customers of most airlines, hotels or the post office. And the thing lost in all this is a large part of the cost of insurance premiums is the fact that NO POOR PERSON is denied care when they show up at the hospital and it is FREE (to them at least). It is built into the premiums of the people who are paying already.

    Here is a simple solution, provide federal vouchers for the 10% of americans who need assistance in acquiring private health coverage. It doesnt need to be cadillac but enough to cover them for basic exams and emergencies (with a high $2-3000 deductible). Nobody goes bankrupt from health bills because everyone has health coverage. And the cost to the Federal government is a fraction of the plans being floated now.

    Now I no there is more that can be done to help solve this (tort reform, research assistance, etc.) but for now, while unemployment is rising, federal revenues are declining let’s take this simple step and move on to getting private business moving forward.

  • to77

    Here is a simple solution, provide federal vouchers for the 10% of americans who need assistance in acquiring private health coverage. It doesnt need to be cadillac but enough to cover them for basic exams and emergencies (with a high $2-3000 deductible).

    They would need to contribute 5% of their income to the cost of premiums to qualify for the assistance. It reduces the federal burden and requires some personal responsibility.

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