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A Global Look at Health Care **OPEN THREAD**

Most of the discussions I’ve read or heard on what kind of health care systems exist in other countries seem to rely on one or two “facts” to make a case for or against, but provide very little insight in to how the individual systems actually function. So it was great to come across this video on C-span’s Q & A of former Washington Post reporter T. R. Reid discussing his new book, The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care.

Basically, Mr. Reid took his old Navy injured shoulder on a journey to France, Germany, Japan, India, Canada, and the United Kingdom, to assess their treatment options and get a first hand look at their health care systems.

From a related Frontline report Mr Reid did (major h/t Zoom):

we were looking for examples of each of the established models of health care systems. The U.K. uses the Beveridge model; Taiwan has chosen the Canadian-style National Health Insurance [NHI] model; Germany, Japan and Switzerland use the Bismarck model. We went to three Bismarck countries on the theory that these private-sector systems are more relevant to America than a British-style National Health Service.

I got interested in Taiwan because Taiwan’s Health Ministry did what our film does; it traveled the world studying health care systems. In the end, Taiwan chose the Canadian model. We went to Switzerland because it is a ferociously free-market economy with politically powerful insurance and drug companies. But still, the Swiss managed to revamp their system, making it cheaper and fairer. We thought that might inspire Americans to believe that change is possible here, too.

He also looks at the moral question of the right to health care regardless of ones ability to pay.

While he does not present a definitive answer to who has the best health care, Mr. Reid gives an engaging account of this travels and experiences while presenting an enlightening perspective and analysis of other countries health care systems.

What we’ve learned overseas is that successful national systems have settled on one model — be it Beveridge, Bismarck or NHI — for everybody. This is fairer, cheaper and far more efficient than our badly fragmented crazy-quilt system.

I don’t think the systems we see in our film are un-American. The British system — the Beveridge model — is the same system used by the U.S. Veterans Administration. If this is un-American, why do we use it for America’s military heroes? And the Canadian system — the National Health Insurance model — is the model for Medicare. If it were un-American, would we use it for 36 million elderly Americans?

  • Lou Filliger

    Zelaya really is a piece of shit. He’s every bad thing about the stereotypical Latin American tinhorn rolled into one package. Still, I guess Hondurans are to blame for permitting him to be elected in the first place. Say….. kind of like Americans and Mr. Obama. “I shouted out ‘Who killed America?’ when after all, it was you and me.”

  • Carmen

    I guess the people at Red State need tin hats too! Just remember this, I will be eating, and able to protect myself when/if the shit hits the fan. You however will be living on foil.
    Incredible: Senate Democrats Vote Unanimously To Destroy American Farmers, America’s Food Supply, And Our National Security!

    Posted by Gary (Profile)

    Wednesday, September 23rd at 4:55PM EDT

    16 Comments
    Recommenders: Xasteius, izoneguy, Kenny Solomon, Lammo, penguin2, nivlem, LJ “Beaglescout” Miller, Amy Miller, Erick Brockway, TNJim, avgamerican, Rod_Patrick, Deskpilot, Steph C, pilgrim, itrytobenice, RoguePolitics, eswan9, Socrates, redneck_hippie

    As we wrote several days ago, there is a battle going on between the American Farmer and the Obama regime. Barack Obama has turned the water off to the San Joaquin Valley of Central California, some of the most fertile farm land in the nation, and literally the nation’s food pantry.

    Thanks to Barack Obama, unemployment in parts of the Valley is at 41 percent. Hard working American Farmers, Patriots, who have spent a lifetime growing our food, are now standing in lines for six and eight hours at a time to get canned goods from China just to survive!

    This is a crime against humanity.

    If you don’t know the story, here’s the deal. The Obama regime is using the excuse of a fish, a two inch bait fish, the Delta Smelt, which they claim is an “endangered species” to shut down all of the water to the San Joaquin Valley. They have created a modern day dust bowl out of some of the most beautiful farm land on earth. Some 400,000 acres have been destroyed with one million total acres in jeopardy.

    This is not only a human tragedy, it’s a matter of national security.

    A significant amount of America’s entire food supply has traditionally come from this Valley. According to the California Foundation For Agriculture In The Classroom, the percentage of our national food supply that comes from the San Joaquin Valley for the various crops are as follows:

    Olives 100%

    Almond 99%

    Walnuts 99%

    Figs 98%

    Kiwi 97%

    Pistachios 96%

    Apricots 95%

    Celery 94%

    Tomatoes 94%

    Broccoli 93%

    Plums 93%

    Nectarines 93%

    Strawberries 90%

    Carrots 89%

    Lemons 89%

    Grapes 88%

    Garlic 86%

    Avocados 84%

    Dates 82%

    Lettuce 78%

    Peaches 76%

    Honeydew 73%

    Asparagus 55%

    Cantaloupe 54%

    Bell Peppers 47%

    Onions 27%

    Cabbage 22%

    Milk and cream 21%

    Artichokes 19%

    Honey 18%

    Spinach 18%

    Looking at that list it seems fantastic that Obama and his democrat/communist party would even consider destroying this farmland and these Patriotic American Farmers. But as fantastic as it seems, every single democrat/communist in the United States Senate voted to table an amendment to the Department of the Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2010 that was offered up by Republican Senator Jim DeMint of South Carolina.

    You can see the results of this vote here.

    Even more incredible, three Republicans joined the democrat/communist party in voting to destroy America. These absolute traitors to the nation are Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe from Maine, and Lamar Alexander of Tennessee.

    And if you think calling these 61 members of the United States Senate traitors to the nation is harsh, then think again. Remember all of the food scares we have endured the last few years? Salmonella on fruits and vegetables has become a common occurrence. Why is this?

    Well, it’s really pretty simple. We are having to import most of our fruits and vegetables from foreign countries. Why? Because the democrat/communist party has destroyed the American Farmer and his business. They have made it impossible for the Farmer to do his job, to grow our food for us.

    That’s right, the democrat/communist party, the party that is constantly caterwauling about jobs going overseas has just turned the responsibility for growing our entire nation’s food supply over to a bunch of foreign countries who don’t have the same food safety standards that our Patriotic Farmers adhere to.

    But why?

    As I wrote my original story on this, it hit me like a ton of bricks, and it becomes even more clear each and every day. Anyone who has been paying even cursory attention to the so-called “green movement” knows it has been hijacked by communists, Marxists.

    One of the leading groups is the Apollo Alliance.

    You’ll note the Apollo Alliance’s logo is very similar to other Obama/ACORN affiliated groups.

    We know of this group because of it’s very close ties to Barack Obama. Two of the closet people to Obama are the recently departed “Green Jobs Czar” Van Jones, a self described communist revolutionary, and racist. But the other man intimately involved with Obama is Jeff Jones. (No relation to Van Jones) Jeff Jones wrote most of the nearly one trillion dollar stimulus bill that Congress passed and Obama signed into law without ever reading a single word.

    Jeff Jones, along with another longtime Obama adviser and mentor, unrepentant murdering terrorist William Ayers co-founded the ultra-violent Weather Underground, a Marxist organization. Once these two murderers realized they couldn’t destroy America by blowing it up, they cut their hair, took baths, put on business suits, and infiltrated “respected” fields of endeavor.

    William Ayers went into teaching, along with his convicted felon ex-wife, Bernardine Dohrn. These two are considered “respected educators,” teaching teachers how to teach your kids. Infecting young minds with tails of Marx and Lenin. Reason number 8448 to home school!

    Jeff Jones chose another path. Jones saw the “green movement” and realized that it was an effective way to slowly institute a communist agenda on America, and use fear and guilt to do it. The greens have been telling fairy tails about “climate change” for a generation, and so far none of it has been true. In the 1970’s the coming ice age was all the rage. All of the major newsers of the day screamed in fear of global cooling, a new ice age that was coming our way. When that didn’t work out, they came up with “global warming” another hoax to end all hoaxes. Looking stupid, because the earth is actually cooling, they finally changed the name to “climate change” when they saw that they couldn’t fool enough people or scare enough to go along with their plans.

    Funny thing, we’ve had one of the coolest two years in decades, and now they are revving up the “global cooling” fears again.

    So what the hell does this have to do with Patriotic American Farmers in Central California?

    Everything!

    We talked about this before, but let’s break it all down again.

    What do we always hear from Obama and all of his communist cohorts? “Social justice.” “Re-distributive change.” Obama has constantly talked about. Here is Obama in a 2001 Chicago radio interview where he called the Constitution “flawed” because it didn’t address the re-distribution of wealth.

    From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

    Karl Marx

    Now when Conservatives heard this communist nonsense coming out of Obama’s mouth we instinctively knew this guy was trouble, but unfortunately, this isn’t just about re-distributing wealth here in America. If only.

    No, these communists want to distribute America’s wealth to the world. You see communism isn’t about creating wealth. (except for a select few) Communism punishes success by forcibly taking the fruits of one’s success and giving it to someone else, whether they have earned it, or not. The communist calls this “economic justice.”

    Of course, this is an insane and deeply flawed system. It punishes those who have the ability and skill to succeed. In fact, it so de-incentivizes a person from working hard, it so punishes success, that people just quit trying. There is no point. This is why communism has failed every time it has been tried. And of course, communism is not natural, so it must be forced upon a people. And by forced, I do mean forced. Some 100 million people worldwide have died of “forced communism.”

    But again, what does this have to do with these California Farmers and for that matter, Barack Obama’s sinister plans?

    Well, lets look at what has been going on for decades with “progressives” in charge of Congress. “Progressives” come in two flavors, both equally dangerous to the nation. Of course, there is the democrat/communist, but there is also the “moderate” Republican, the enabler, the ones who see no danger in Big Government and do absolutely nothing to stop the democrat/communist.

    We have several issues that have our nation is severe peril right now.

    First of all, money. Our debit is so high it may never be paid off. Our deficit is completely unsustainable. In the nine months that Barack Obama has been in office, our deficit has quadrupled. Obama has spent more money since January than all of our previous Presidents, from George Washington to George W. Bush have in 233 years. We are now a debtor nation. We are totally dependant on other nations to fund our government, including our national defense, our military. If I have to explain how dangerous this situation is…….

    That’s just one mess we are in, and here is we start to see it all come together, communism and radical environmentalism.

    Since the late 1960’s early 1970’s we have had issues with our energy supply. We’ve sat through two separate gasoline shortages and actually had gasoline and heating oil rationing. But why? It’s not like we don’t have more than enough oil, natural gas, and coal to fuel our nation for decades without a single drop of imported energy. We have more oil than Saudi Arabia, natural gas deposits that equal the entire world’s oil supply, and an estimated two hundred-fifty years worth of coal. And that doesn’t even take into consideration nuclear energy!

    And yet, instead of going on a crash program, something akin to Kennedy’s quest to go to the moon, to develop our own energy, we actually use less of our own energy than we did forty years ago! But why?

    Well, the greens would have you believe it’s to “save the planet.” How ridiculous. We still use oil and natural gas. But instead of using our oil and natural gas, we use imports. Imports from nations that don’t particularly like us. Nations that don’t have nearly the safety record with oil exploration that we do in the United States. Nations that have to transport this oil to us.

    These oil rich nations are mostly totalitarian regimes that don’t share the wealth with their citizens. The oil money goes into the coffers of dictators, like anti-American communist Hugo Chavez of Venezuela. Now Chavez is using the great wealth he has gotten from America to buy military equipment from Russia, and forge friendships with Middle Eastern terror states like Iran. Chavez, a dangerous communist, is a threat to destabilize the entire South American continent!

    Here’s the real story. America sends somewhere between $700 billion and $1 trillion dollars a year to other nations, communist nations, to buy their oil. That is some serious wealth re-distribution, wouldn’t you say!

    Not only does this spending severely deplete our national pocketbook, it fuels communism, and even terrorism worldwide. It weakens the United States financially. It also jeopardizes our national security. Both of these are communist goals.

    America has great reserves of oil off our coastlines and in ANWR. But we are continually told that we can’t drill off the coast because it would destroy the ocean, and yet, Barack Obama just sent $10 billion dollars to Brazil, so they could drill off THEIR coastline for oil!

    Of course, there is a lot more to it than that, there always is. You see, we all know that Obama is basically a sock puppet for George Soros, who basically owns and funds the democrat party, as well as groups like MoveOn.org, the Tides Foundation, ACORN, and dozens more little front groups. Anyhow, Soros, who made his money speculating on the British pound, almost destroying the currency, invested $811 million dollars in Petrobas, the Brazilian oil company, just a few days before Obama so generously sent them the care package.

    Evidently it’s OK for some communists to make a lot of money, and “destroy the environment,” especially when they fund your phony-baloney corrupt political party!

    Let’s recap a minute.

    Thanks to “progressive” policies of the democrat/communist party, and the enablers in the Republican party, we are flat broke and must depend on credit from other nations to keep us going. This leaves our nation in peril, our economy on the brink of destruction, and is a national security disaster. All our creditors have do is turn off the faucet, stop loaning us money, and it’s all over.

    Also thanks to the democrat/communists, in the guise of “saving the environment” (unless it’s George Soros) we are total exposed to the world on energy. Not only are we held hostage to world oil prices, but to rogue regimes, many who don’t like us, and even more dangerous, many who would have little problem with just not selling us any oil at all if there was an angle to it.

    This of course is an extremely dangerous situation. This may be one of the most dangerous situations there is to national security there is, if it weren’t for this:

    Our food supply!

    The communists have failed to destroy America, so far, with just debt, and restricting energy, the lifeblood of any economy, the lifeblood of freedom. America is just too strong. The American people too resilient.

    So here comes this deal, in the guise of saving an “endangered species.” Let me remind you, the Delta Smelt is plentiful. It is not native to the San Joaquin Valley waterways. It doesn’t do anything for the ecosystem. It’s not part of the food chain, and doesn’t benefit the waters, doesn’t perform a function that effects water quality in any way shape or form.

    In other words, no one is gonna miss this thing!

    But again, the communists are basically killing two birds with one stone. Like we have been doing with oil, we are now sending more and more of our treasure to other nations, mostly third world countries. In other words, we are re-distributing the wealth. This, is what Barack Obama and his communist friends call “economic justice!”

    It’s bad enough that we are forced to buy food of questionable quality and safety, but these people aren’t just content with that. They also want to destroy our ability to go back and start feeding ourselves again.

    Now you gotta ask why.

    Well, anyone that has ever followed the left wing in this country for more than a few minutes knows the left wing in this country hates America. They blame America for the world’s problems. We’ve heard it our entire lives from these people. They used to be contained at the universities and on the San Francisco streets, but over the decades the Marxist professors, the communists, the severe anti-American traitors have mainstreamed themselves. Murdering domestic terrorists are now considered “respected” by a good portion of society. These people have completely co-opted the democrat party, and turned it into a party full of full blown anti-American, anti-capitalism, communists.

    Here’s the thing. Barack Obama and all of those around him are dangerous communists who want to destroy the Republic. This is their stated goal. They want to “fundamental remake America through transformative change.”

    Barack Obama wants to do away with the Constitution and institute a Marxist state. A communist regime. But to do this, he must destroy the country. And of course, with the debt, and our artificial energy issues, the groundwork for Obama’s communist revolution was already in place. Now we have an artificial drought in California that will further destroy our economy, and further contribute to our nation’s chaos.

    And Obama needs major chaos as an excuse to bring us “transformative change.”

    As a bonus, for Obama, we have over 40,000 Patriotic American Farmers who are now out of work, and totally dependant on the government to survive. Just what the communists want. The more that depend on government for their survival, the less to resist whatever government wants to do!

    This cannot be allowed to stand. Obviously, our first consideration is these Patriotic American Farmers who have worked this blessed, fertile California land for generations. We must save these people. The solution is really easy too, just turn on the water!

    But long term, we have serious issues in this nation. I mean serious issues. Our very Republic is in danger of extinction. Our very freedom and liberty.

    Right now, against the wishes of the American people, Barack Obama and his communist stooges are plotting on a way to shove his socialist Obamacare down America’s throat. Never mind the fact that most of America is strongly opposed to this, and almost 90 percent of America is happy with their current health care plans.

    The only reason for Obama to want to take over healthcare is it’s one sixth of the nation’s economy. The provisions’s in Obamacare completely and totally usurp our Constitution. They give the federal government unprecedented powers. They turn a republican form of government into a centrally planned, centrally controlled communist state. We will no longer be 50 separate states bound together by a common interest. We’ll be one big super-state forced to live under tyrannical rule.

    We must stop this, and we must stop it now.

    First, we must unite. This isn’t about being a Republican, or even a “normal” democrat. This is about being an American. This is about loving the America we all grew up in. The greatest nation the world has ever known. As Ronald Reagan would describe it, a shining city on a hill.

    We need to unite behind other Americans. We need to join up with other Americans. Join the Tea Party movement. There are groups in almost every area of the country. If there is no group, start one. But get involved. Get your family involved. Get your neighbors involved.

    You also need to contact your Senators and Congressmen. Let them know they work for you. Tell them you are no longer going to accept their poor job performance. That you will fire them and find someone else if they continue down this dangerous path. Tell them to turn on this water, now!

    Also, contact the California Farm Water Coalition and help them any way you can. These Patriotic Farmers are the very fabric of our nation. What is being done to these Farmers, to America herself, is outrageous, and cannot be allowed to continue.

    Barack Obama and the rest of the democrat/communists have not only destroyed the lives of these Patriotic Farmers, put nearly one million acres of America’s richest farm land in peril, they have put America’s national security in peril. This is very close to treasonous behavior.

  • Carmen

    It’s no more black helicopters than people thinking Obama actually sat in that church for 20 years and heard nothing? No more than believing that he was a community organizer with ACORN for 20 years and taught classes for them, and was a lawyer for them, but does not know anything about them, or how much money they get from the government.
    No more than believing that the NEA just woke up one morning and said hey let’s get on a call with the white house and paint some nice pictures, and make some rap songs, and place a census worker in the mexican’s novellas to convince people to do what the president wants them to do.
    No more than believing that Obama lived around Bill Ayers, and his wife worked with Bill’s wife, and they worked on boards together, and Bill wrote Obama’s book for him becauase he cannot write, but he really does not know him, and thought he was just a professor.
    No more than believing that that piece of SHIT in Horduras was really taken out by his constitutional government in a coup.
    I can go on, but who needs the fucking tin hat when you all continue to swallow the load that Obama feeds you?

  • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

    open thread?

    It’s Friday–Ron Paul has a House hearing on HR1207: Audit the Fed bill.

    http://dailybail.com/home/live-blogging-the-house-hearing-on-ron-pauls-bill-hr-1207-to.html

    Join in the live blogging at 9am eastern!!

  • TeakWoodKite
  • ~~JustMe~~

    O/T

    The Obama administration has notified Congress of the State Department’s intention to contribute $400,000 to foundations run by Muammar Qaddafi’s two children — $200,000 each for daughter Aisha and son Saif. Saif, you may recall, is the son who escorted the Lockerbie terrorist Abdel Baset al-Megrahi home to a hero’s welcome in Libya after President Obama sternly “warned” Qaddafi that there was to be no hero’s welcome.
    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=M2FkMDMwNzg4MGNkNGEzNDRjMWQxOTdlOWUwYzA4MzE=

  • Carmen

    Let’s see how many goals the commie/dems have checked off already.

    The Communist Takeover Of
    America – 45 Declared Goals
    From Greg Swank
    12-4-2

    You are about to read a list of 45 goals that found their way down the halls of our great Capitol back in 1963. As you read this, 39 years later, you should be shocked by the events that have played themselves out. I first ran across this list 3 years ago but was unable to attain a copy and it has bothered me ever since. Recently, Jeff Rense posted it on his site and I would like to thank him for doing so. http://www.rense.com
    Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record–Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963
    Current Communist Goals EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Thursday, January 10, 1963 .
    Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.
    At Mrs. Nordman’s request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following “Current Communist Goals,” which she identifies as an excerpt from “The Naked Communist,” by Cleon Skousen:
    [From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]
    1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
    2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
    3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength. WORKING ON THIS ONE
    4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war. CLINTON GOT THIS ONE
    5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites. CHECK
    6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination. CHECK
    7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N. CHECK
    8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev’s promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
    9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
    10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
    11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. WORKING ON THIS ONE
    12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party. CHECK
    13. Do away with all loyalty oaths. TRYING
    14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office. DONT KNOW
    15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States. CHECK
    16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights. CHECK
    17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks. CHECK
    18. Gain control of all student newspapers. MAYBE
    19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
    20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions. CHECK
    21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures. WORKING ON IT
    22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. CHECK
    24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press. CHECK
    25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV CHECK
    26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.” CHECK
    27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a “religious crutch.” ALMOST
    28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.” CHECK
    29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis. TRYING
    30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the “common man.” TRYING
    31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the “big picture.” WORKING ON IT
    32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture–education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc. SEE CZARS
    33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus. TRYING
    34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities. DONT KNOW DID THEY?
    35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI. WORKING ON IT
    36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions. CHECK
    37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business. CHECK
    38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. TRYING
    39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals. CHECK
    40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce. CHECK
    41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents. WORKING ON IT
    42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems. DID THAT
    43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government. IRAQ
    44. Internationalize the Panama Canal. CHECK
    45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike NOT YET

    SEEMS LIKE THEY ARE GETTING DAMN CLOSE TO BEING DONE!

    • Smart-Jazz-Just Me

      Sheesh! I don’t know who to be more afraid of, people who post stuff like this or people who believe this stuff…or maybe both….

      • Surfered

        Ditto.

        • Ellen D

          Ditto ditto.

      • BlueX

        LOL
        Hey Carmen, what about black helicopters?
        Un-freaking-real! It is 1994 all over again!!
        Same crap they were talking about the Clintons, point by point.

  • Ohio Granny

    The problem with medicine is the same as the problem with politics. It is about the money. Although I think Barack telling people that doctors would take out tonsils in healthy children is not true, it is more true that the tendency is to do what makes economic sense.
    I will give a quick example: a doctor hears about a new machine which can test blood for basic levels CBC Hemoglobin Hematocrit etc. for cheaper, faster, and fits on a table in his back room. Up front cost, $5,000. The next 500 people all get told they MUST have it done. Now, most of them probably need it done. It is win/win, except for the few who don’t really need it, and who have to pay out of pocket for the doctors toy. But after it is paid for, and all the profits are gravy, the doctor continues to write his own check by ordering everyone to have it done. And suddenly, you need it, even if you don’t. But this is a tiny part of the whole problem. But you could take the same idea and apply it to open heart surgery (yes, I’ve seen it!), or CAT scans, or MRI’s. First, they have to pay for it so you get one if you need it or not.
    In politics, they have to raise obscene amounts of money to get elected and re-elected. Therefore, they need to schoomze with people with money, and then they have to show the voters back home how they can buy their votes with promises of taking from the rich. So we are already at socialism. That doesn’t make it right. Doesn’t make it good “for the people”. Doesn’t make it easy to fix when guys like Rangel, and Teddy and Geitner et al live in a world where they get a pass on taxes and drunk driving and even drowning a girl.
    The problem with medicine is that obscene piles of money are involved and the people who claim they want to help are the same people who want to get their hands on the money. For our sake? Don’t believe it.
    Sadly, as bad as our current system is, it is better than what they are proposing. Until we have a real discussion about solutions that don’t include Pelosi, Reid, and Obama getting another trillion to blow, then change is first an illusion and second, a clever ruse to steal from everyone while getting them to beg for it.
    We created a system when someone pays $100 per month, like the old folks, and gets $250,000 out per year because they need intense care. We can’t keep this up with less and less people.
    There are no easy answers and sadly, government has never improved a private business.

  • Surfered

    The U. S. spends more per capita for health care than any other country in the world, 50% more than second place Switzerland, 100% more than the rest of the industrialized nations.

    The quality of care is similar. We do worse in absolute measures of life expectancy, infant mortality, and preventable death for explainable reasons: i.e,. 46 million Americans do not have health insurance. We do better in cancer care, but worse in cardiac care. Bottom line: the quality of health care in the other countries is equivalent to ours; however, they cover all their citizens and do it a whole lot cheaper.

    Only one major country actually has “socialized medicine” in it’s true definition – the UK. Doctors are government employees; however, there are private doctors for those who want them.

    France has a Medicare-like system that pays 75% of health care, with the balance covered by private insurance.

    Germany has a mandatory insurance requirement, but the government is not the insurer. It does, however, collect the premiums in a central fund that pools risk for the entire system.

    Australia has a Medicare-like system for 75% of health care. Non-profit insurance covers the rest.

    Canada has a universal single-payer system.

    In the French, German, Autralian, and Candadian systems, doctors are not employees. All citizens may seek private care if they want it, if they are willing to pay for it.

    Our problem is that health care costs have been growing 3-4 times faster than the rate of inflation. Since wages have stagnated, insurance premiums are actually growing faster than that. 10% per year, on average, for the last 7 years.

    If costs are not controlled, eventually only the very wealthy will be able to afford health insurance.
    By point of example, a secretary in our office is 59 years old and has had one malignant breast tumor. It was treated with a lumpectomy and radiation. After 6 years, there has been no recurrence. Her employer sponsored health insurance premium has been increase to $2,000 per month. Her salary is $40,000. Without her employer, she would go uninsured.

    Because of the increased premiums, fewer employers are offering insurance. 38% fewer than just 15 years ago. Those that do, are increasing the deductibles and co-pays and making employees contribute more for the premiums. Smaller employers and the self employed have it worse because of the smaller pool.

    62% of personal bankruptcies are the result of medical bills. 75% of those filers had health insurance, just not enough. Check the life-time limit in the small print of your policy.

    The average American citizen is one diagnosis away from falling into this category.

    • Karma

      And where in the Baucus bill will a bankruptcy be avoided if a serious medical condition exists?

      Insurance companies and govt insurance can still deny to pay for treatments for whatever excuse they have. There is nothing in the bill that I have seen that require them to pay. And please point it out if you know where that language is in any of the bills.

      The CBO keeps throwing cold water on these bills. I believe them over the promises of the politicians.

  • jbjd

    Everyone, I now have posted 2 (two) model complaints of election fraud against The Honorable Nancy Pelosi, acting in a non-governmental role as Chair, 2008 DNC Convention, and a Request for Investigation by the AG, in Virginia and in Georgia. Both of these are on the site, THE CHEESE STANDS ALONE Complaints for HI, TX, and SC are on MODEL COMPLAINTS OF ELECTION FRAUD TO STATE ATTORNEYS GENERAL

    Download these, fill in your name and address, and send!

  • Lou Filliger

    It’s no coincidence, by the way, that Obama and Clinton are backing Zelaya rather than Micheleti and the legitimate Honduran government. They are in the collective pockets of Chavez and Castro. We might be able to recover from the passage of healthcare, but our government’s support of the socialist Zelaya and his cronies is a stain that will never be removed from our country’s annals, until the end of time.

    • Zoom

      Did you mean “our country’s anus”?

      • Lou Filliger

        Why, are you in charge of keeping that unobstructed?

  • Lou Filliger

    This healthcare debate is just another potential domino in the worldwide spread of socialism. Countries such as Mexico and Canada have already fallen into socialism, long since. The U.S. is a last holdout of free market principles. To say that the U.S. should use other countries’ socialized medicine as models for our own system, is to say that we are abandoning our position as one of the last bastions of freedom, and deciding what sort of socialism would work best for us. The disingenuous “progressives” among us claim that the Republicans’ refusal to back any sort of healthcare reform is the equivalent of “doing nothing”, know better. What the Republicans are doing is guarding one of the last watchtowers of freedom in this world. How typical for the socialists of the world to twist this around to claim that the Republicans are “doing nothing.”

    If healthcare reform passes, especially with a public option, we should all observe a moment of silence for the passing of our hard-won liberty.

    • donjo

      Do you actually believe yourself? Most of the best-run countries in the world are loosely “socialist” in nature – because they care for their citizens. The USA, on the other hand, is run by and for the benefit of the corporations. Our constitution is considered by many to be “just a piece of paper.” Last bastion of freedom? Freedom for whom?

      • Lou Filliger

        Yes I actually believe, of course.

        “Many believe our constitution is just a piece of paper”. Well, then they should have the diligence and integrity to either amend it or abandon it, rather than ignore it, like a married man having an affair and pretending everything is great at home.

        “most best-run countries Loosely socialist” – I agree that socialism is prevalent but I would argue it depends on how you define “best-run”. By my definition, if you’re socialist, you’re not well-run, except perhaps in the sense that a machine is well-run. Who wants to be part of the Borg?

        I don’t like to get too bogged down with semantics – I would like to use a word such as “soshalist” to define what I’m referring to, to liberate the discussion from the semantical friction of what has traditionally been defined as socialist. I define “Soshalist” to be any system that puts the needs of the collective ahead of the rights of the individual.
        By that definition, we are perhaps the only country left that’s not “Soshalist”.

        “Caring for our people” – I believe that the best way we can care for our people is to give them the freedom to succeed or fail unfettered by government.

        • donjo

          I’ve heard this song and dance before; typical right wing talking points that have been ongoing since God knows when. The fear of Socialism is trotted out whenever a program comes along that may actually help the “common people.” There’s a long list of USA “socialist” programs that have been successful over the years and also tales of how the republicans tried to stop or hinder each and every one of them. Think about that the next time you ride home on your “socialist” highway, pulled over by a “socialist” policeman, since you don’t believe in following “socialist” speed limits, and a “socialist” fireman drags your butt out of a burning building.

          But then, never knowing a right winger who cared one damn for anybody else, we could, of course, simply let chaos rule, unfettered by government “interference” or common courtesy, for that matter.

          So, by your definition, “the freedom to succeed or fail unfettered by the government,” we’re supposed to allow the sick, the infirm, the elderly, the homeless, our injured veterans, etc. etc. to just fuck off and go somewhere and die. How callous.

          Seems strange that these rules that you advocate didn’t apply to the financial Wall St. geniuses and their failing companies and the myriad of greedy, under-regulated banks.

          • Lou Filliger

            I was vehemently opposed to the bank bail-outs. I signed that petition and I called all my representatives and did everything I could to stop that. So, I agree with everything you said except for the very last paragraph – wasn’t my fault, and I don’t support it.

            … “callous”, well, I never signed a contract when I came into this world accepting responsibility for the well-being of my fellow man, and I don’t accept that responsibility. That’s your philosophy, not mine. I’ll do whatever I can to oppose it, and to quote the Beat Farmers:

            • Lou Filliger

              Hah… now you’ll never know what the Beat Farmers said … serves you right.

              • http://deleted BuzzisbackLatte

                “There goes a red-headed legend in a blue chevrolet.”

                By any chance was that the Beat Farmers quote you were going for?

                • Lou Filliger

                  Hey, thanks for asking!

                  It was:

                  “Don’t, don’t take my land
                  Don’t, don’t try to force my hand
                  I may be small in the universe
                  But here on Earth
                  I’m a big, big man.”

                  • Lou Filliger

                    Wahhhh! All the public options in the world couldn’t save Country Dick Montana. That’s when my heart turned cold. That’s when I stopped caring about my fellow man, when CDM collapsed onto his drums after the first song and left us … too, too soon. Nothing else mattered after that.

            • Ellen D

              I never signed a contract when I came into this world accepting responsibility for the well-being of my fellow man, and I don’t accept that responsibility. That’s your philosophy, not mine. I’ll do whatever I can to oppose it,

              Wow! Where are all the Christians when we need them?

  • Sassy

    Ditto Anee and Katmoon!
    Katmoon, I also want to extend my heart-felt gratitude to your brave, patriotic family members. Some may choose to forget, but many more of us won’t!

  • Anee

    It is very simple, as a Native American, I can tell you exactly what government run health care would look like, just look at the Indian Health Service. It is a dismal failure.

    • Katmoon

      I have also been saying the same thing Anee.

      • Ladydawnelle

        yea and you have to figure if this is how they treat the ORIGINAL occupants of this country? how much more poorly are they willing to go.

        Didn’t REZKO/OBAMBI’s district have the people that FROZE to death in those projects because old rezko would rather give Obambi campaign crook money than upgrade his flop housing? With friends like those…….and the list is HUGEEEEEEEE!

        I guess those that still support this crook are no better than he is which rrrrreally worries me! I may have to take full advantage of ALL my rights (1st, 2nd) before they’re taken away forever! I had no clue this many Americans were really that crooked. There will never be enough prisons to house them all.

    • Zoom

      A dismal failure.
      Is the profits-for-insurance-companies model of health care a success?
      According to the Institute of Medicine, about 18,000 Americans die each year because they can’t get the medical treatment that would save their lives
      http://www.iom.edu/?id=19175
      Insurance companies don’t do anything to make people healthier, their goal is to make profits. And profits at 10 of the country’s largest health insurance companies ROSE 428 percent from 2000 to 2007. That would be great, if the profits were not at the expense of our health, the doctor’s work, and the taxpayers’: their administrative overhead costs are 25%, as opposed to 4% for Medicare.
      Socialism for the Corporations…

      • Lou Filliger

        I am also adamantly opposed to the bailouts such as TARP, and the sweetheart deals that Congress cuts with the Rx companies. If you view certain organizations (such as banks that were “too big to fail”) and the Rx companies as branches of the federal government, which they already are in many aspects, then it becomes much easier to decide who the common enemy is.

        Perhaps a good metaphor would be a tumor (the government) that has started to take over previously healthy cells and turn them into cancer cells. Aim the laser at the center of the cancer (the government) and kill it, and the branches of the tumor will wither and die.

        But all the current healthcare reform bills are proposing to do is expand the cancer in every imaginable direction.

      • Katmoon

        You didn’t read the post, and yes health care on Indian reservations is a dismal failure; you of course can argue this because you have experienced it first hand also? I thought not. This is promised health care dating back over many decades, in treaties.

        • Lou Filliger

          My comment wasn’t on the post, it was on the comments made later in the thread. Experience life on an Indian reservation … no, I haven’t but my parents both taught on a Navajo reservation for a few years and I’ve always thought it was reprehsensible the way the U.S. has treated (mistreated) Native Americans. I’m all for supporting the Native Americans still living on reservations in any way we can, because this land is really theirs and we are trespassers on it. In fact, I feel that the federal government has taken my own freedoms from me (even though I’m white) in a way that is not unlike the way the Indians got screwed, only less visibly so. If you ever take over again let me know, I’ll gladly be a humble warrior in your band. And I mean it sincerely.

    • scorbs

      Anee — no one is proposing “government-run healthcare.” They’re proposing a public option, to help lower costs for everybody. And you clearly have not been reading the statistics above about how poor our healthcare system is, in terms of results compared to other countries you decry who actually take care of their citizens’s healths, not force them into bankruptcy or threaten them with it.

      As far as “government” healthcare systems go, no one complains about Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA system. They like their “government”-run healthcare.

      People should stop agitating against their own interests. Americans have a right to affordable healthcare, without threat of bankruptcy, and to stop getting fleeced by insurance companies who have commoditized our health and exploited our need for healthcare for their gain. They get fat profits and beefed-up shareprices on Wall Street, and that’s what they care about. Only.

      Sixty percent of doctors in this country support a public option. We should anyway go for the one-payer system, Medicare for everyone, and tweak that. If this is the best country in the world, it can be one-payer and be very good at it.

  • Surfered

    The U. S. spends more per capita for health care than any other country in the world, 50% more than second place Switzerland, 100% more than the rest of the industrialized nations.

    The quality of care is similar. We do worse in absolute measures of life expectancy, infant mortality, and preventable death for explainable reasons: i.e,. 46 million Americans do not have health insurance. We do better in cancer care, but worse in cardiac care. Bottom line: health care in the other countries is equivalent to ours; however, they cover all their citizens and do it a whole lot cheaper.

    Only one major country actually has “socialized medicine” in it’s true definition – the UK. Doctors are government employees; however, there are private doctors for those who want them.

    France has a Medicare-like system that pays 75% of health care, with the balance covered by private insurance.

    Germany has a mandatory insurance requirement, but the government is not the insurer. It does, however, collect the premiums in a central fund that pools risk for the entire system.

    Australia has a Medicare-like system for 75% of health care. Non-profit insurance covers the rest.

    Canada has a universal single-payer system.

    In the French, German, Autralian, and Candadian systems, doctors are not employees. All citizens may seek private care if they want it, if they are willing to pay for it.

    Our problem is that health care costs have been growing 3-4 times faster than the rate of inflation. Since wages have stagnated, insurance premiums are actually growing faster than that. 10% per year, on average, for the last 7 years.

    If costs are not controlled, eventually only the very wealthy will be able to afford health insurance.
    By point of example, a secretary in our office is 59 years old and has had one malignant breast tumor. It was treated with a lumpectomy and radiation. After 6 years, there has been no recurrence. Her employer sponsored health insurance premium has been increase to $2,000 per month. Her salary is $40,000. Without her employer, she would go uninsured.

    Because of the increased premiums, fewer employers are offering insurance. 38% fewer than just 15 years ago. Those that do, are increasing the deductibles and co-pays and making employees contribute more for the premiums. Smaller employers and the self employed have it worse because of the smaller pool.

    62% of personal bankruptcies are the result of medical bills. 75% of those filers had health insurance, just not enough. Check the life-time limit in the small print of your policy.

    The average American citizen is one diagnosis away from falling into this category.

  • candymarl

    I agree with Hillary on this one. If we can’t agree on a health care bill just give everyone the same coverage Congress has. Problem solved.

  • tango

    AARP getting kickbacks?

    http://spectator.org/blog/2009/09/22/gop-report-charges-aarp-gettin

    I don’t know if it’s really kickbacks. But if Medicare Advantage is cut, seniors will have to pay for Medigap coverage to make up for missing benefits. AARP seriously profits from Medigap insurance sold by a third party where AARP has leant it’s name in exchange for payment. The medigap insurance only requires 65% of premiums collected be paid out on claims while Medicare Advantage required 85% pay out rate. So seniors will ultimately pay for insurance that covers less and AARP will continue to get even more money off the sale of those policies.

    It seems if AARP were truly looking out for seniors, they’d want to make sure Medigap coverage paid at the same rate as Medicare Advantage is if’s discontinued.

    • Ellen D

      So?

      There are plenty of choices in insurance to cover the gaps in Part B, not just AARP.

      “Advantage” is turning your Medicare over to an HMO which then bills the government. Not surprisingly this has turned out to be very costly to the Medicare Program and from the people I know on Advantage, they aren’t thrilled with it.

      AARP got started originally to be in insurance and if anyone doesn’t know their origins they are woefully uneducated.

  • Benjamin

    Hey folks, check this out. Some of you may remember the research that was done by Jack Cashill which determined that William Ayers actually wrote Barry’s book, Dreams From My Father. Well, this new book about Barack and Michelle’s marriage has been released, and the following is breaking on World Net Daily:

    Author confirms Bill Ayers helped Obama write ‘Dreams’
    New release on president’s marriage verifies work of WND’s Jack Cashill pointing to ex-terrorist’s role

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=110784

    So much for the myth that Obama is some kind of genius author – and of course Obama has been lying all along about the Ayers relationship. A shame this couldn’t come out before the election!

    • Ladydawnelle

      except it didn’t seem to matter to the kids

      or a few other groups (and it turns out they are the ones STILL in love with him)

      I’m not digging this. The fact you can now pretty much predict what a whole group (or 90 percent of them) will do and how they will vote and how stubbornly & WILLfully ignorant they will allow themselves to be JUST to keep their CHOsen ONE

      I’m not diggin this.
      Generalities are NOT supposed to every be correct!
      Sorry Einstein but you may be wrong on this one.

    • Ladydawnelle

      pardon the typos

  • Zoom

    Thank you for this post. There’s also this Frontline (PBS) interview with Mr. Reid:
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/notebook.html

    “…the Taiwanese hired a professor at Harvard to study health care systems around the world and choose a model for Taiwan. In the end, they picked the Canadian model, on the grounds that it is CHEAPER and fairer than the for-profit insurance system used in the U.S.”
    What?? Those Socialist Taiwanese!!!

    “We went to Switzerland because it is a ferociously free-market economy with politically powerful insurance and drug companies. But still, the Swiss managed to revamp their system, making it cheaper and fairer. We thought that might inspire Americans to believe that change is possible here, too.”

    • Linda Anselmi

      Huge thanks Zoom. I updated the post with some links and quotes from the Frontline interview and gave you h/t.

      • Zoom

        Cheers :-)

  • SteelerfanOH

    This is an open thread so I wanted to show you something extremely disturbing. This video is of schoolchildren in NJ, led by a teacher, singing the praises of our President ["supreme leader"]. I could never understand how anyone would not be disturbed by this regardless of your politics. Substitute any name for Barack Obama and I would still be outraged as a parent. Fox News is running parts of this and is trying to get information from the school (with no success so far). I wouldn’t expect this to be covered anywhere else.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aqMTD5UFmU

  • Sassy

    I forgot one point.
    With most Americans satisfied with their current plans, why the push for reform now?
    Could it be that the costs only came to the attention of legislators because all government employees, at the state and national level, receive such generous coverage?
    Are they really seeking solutions for everyone?

    • jwrjr

      They are seeking solutions to profit the Pharmaceutical and Medical Insurance industries. The constituents have not sufficiently bribed the CongressCriminals, I guess.

    • sandi78

      They are seeking reform now for many reasons and one is that the huge cost to business of providing health benefits to current and retired employees is one reason why American products can’t be priced competitively on either the domestic or the international market. One of the reasons why the cost of everything you buy, including food, is going up and up is the rising cost of healthcare insurance. It is not sustainable in its current form. Big business can’t afford to pay for health insurance any more. That’s why, for most people, their coverage gets less and their out-of-pocket costs increase every year. The system as it is may be working fine for you today, but it’s on the point of a meltdown.

    • boonies

      why the push for Reform Now?
      What does ACORN stand for?
      Just saying…..

    • Ellen D

      With most Americans satisfied with their current plans

      I administrate 3 health plans for 3 companies. Most employees don’t know anything about their plans until:

      1- They get sick and start getting medical bills that they have to pay, despite coverage.

      2- They marry and have children and find that adding a spouse MORE THAN DOUBLES your rate, and coverage for a family is $1400. to $1500. a month.

      No one I know is satisfied when they discover either.

  • jbjd

    LA, thank you so much for posting this C-Span video. I had already seen it; I also have watched (and posted links here for) PBS’ “Sick Around the World.” But when it comes to discussing health care system reform even otherwise knowledgeable people appear to understand very little about comparable efforts in other similarly situated countries. Certainly, ‘one size does not fit all.’ But there is no need to re-invent the wheel, either.

  • Sassy

    I will attempt to give a brief over-view of Medicare Advantage, for comparison to those with private insurance.
    Medicare premiums:$100 per month, Supplementals range from $0 to $200 per month,
    Co-pays $10 to $30, with out-of-network at $45,
    One can cobble together a basic plan at about $2000 per year. No vision or dental.
    When you enroll in a supplemental, you no longer use the Medicare card, and the insurance company must handle the reams of paperwork.
    As you approach 65, you will recieve more recruiting letters than a Heisman Trophy winner.
    I do not believe, for one minute, that government can create a department to insure the entire country cheaper than the private sector, despite Pelosi’s attack on the villianous insurance companies!

    • LDW

      You should believe that the government can do a better job than the private insurers are now doing, because every other OECD country has strict government controls over healthcare and every single other OECD country delivers healthcare to all its people for less, per capita, than it costs America to leave 47 million uninsured.

      Here is 2007 data from the OECD:
      http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/2/38980580.pdf

      You should believe that the government can do a better job than the private insurers are doing now, because, despite spending twice as much as the average OECD country, per capita, America is only 37th on the list of health outcomes, including life expectancy.

      And you should keep in mind that health insurance costs are having a very negative effect on America’s ability to compete, because American companies carry a much larger economic burden than other OECD countries.

      In America, the purpose of the healthcare industry is to generate profits for the insurance and drug companies, and private medical facilities, and it does this very well. When it comes to providing healthcare, the American healthcare system doesn’t do nearly as well. Americans spend the most, but don’t even have the best outcomes.

      Furthermore, if you look at American Medicare, you’ll find a system with very low administrative overhead costs: about 2% as compared to 16-30% in the private sector. Medicare does suffer because the government agreed not to bargain over drug prices, but this could be changed by legislation (although Obama’s bill doesn’t do this and is a fatal flaw of the bill, in my opinion).

      • Ellen D

        Thanks LDW. I don’t know why Sassy was commenting on Medicare Advantage and where she gets the idea that plain old Medicare has reams of paperwork.
        With Medicare Advantage you are just going back to the HMO that you could have left for good at 65 by signing up for plain Medicare.

    • LDW

      Here is one woman’s story. She calls herself an American healthcare exile:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TWuO5dBYjo&feature=player_embedded

      Huffpo also did a piece about American healthcare exiles:
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-glave/private-health-care-is-st_b_258025.html