RSS Feed for This PostCurrent Article

Did They Tell Him it Was Scotch?

By Larry Johnson on July 3, 2008 at 12:29 PM in Current Affairs

I suspect most of you have viewed Christopher Hitchens’ first hand introduction to the “joys” of waterboarding. While Hitchens has been a stalwart apologist for the war in Iraq he has, to his credit, not been part of the crowd trying to excuse or justify torture. I give him credit for subjecting himself to this experience.

The premise of using torture to get information is based on the flawed fantasies of popular fiction writers like Vince Flynn. Guys who have never actually been involved with interrogations or endured such training insist that the end justifies the means and that torture works. Well, Vince and his fans are wrong.

The notion that terrorism represents the greatest threat to our security is delusional. Equally delusional is the belief that we must and should use torture against terrorist suspects. When we engage in such conduct we debase ourselves and our country. Compared to the threats we confronted in World War II or during the Cold War–where a thermonuclear war was a genuine possibility–terrorism is a prick on a gnats ass. This is not to say that we should ignore it. Wrong.

We must continue work to identify and destroy the terrorist networks. But we do not have to lose our souls and integrity in the process. The strength of America has been its moral vision. We have frequently failed to live up to the high ideals we espouse (e.g., preaching that all men are created equal while preserving slavery, etc.). But our sins of commission and omission do not invalidate those principles and ideals. And many around the world have looked to the United States for its moral leadership in opposing tyrants and tyranny. Sadly, the legacy of George W. Bush, Jr. has left a noxious stain on our country’s reputation. We are no longer known as the country who led the way in tyring Nazi war criminals, who murdered Jewish civilians to death camps. We are no longer known as the country who gave refuge from the Soviet gulags to dissidents like Alexander Solzhenitsyn. We have become the country of Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and waterboarding.

I hope that Hitchens’ demonstration will remind us that we have a moral obligation to be better than the terrorists.

  • UKforDems

    Entirely well said – so will you be supporting Obama now?

    • Hope Floats

      /01/05: Obama was part of a unanimous consent agreement not to filibuster the nomination of lawless torturer Alberto Gonzales as chief law enforcement officer of the United States (U.S. Attorney General).”

      “2/15/05: Obama voted to confirm Michael Chertoff, a proponent of water-board torture… man behind the round-up of thousands of people of Middle-Eastern descent following 9/11. By Roll call 10.”

      “4/21/05: Obama voted to make John ‘Death Squad’ Negroponte the National Intelligence Director. In Central America, John Negroponte was connected to death squads that murdered nuns and children in sizable quantities. He is suspected of instigating death squads while in Iraq, resulting in the current insurgency. Instead of calling for Negroponte’s prosecution, Obama rewarded him by making him National Intelligence Director. Roll call 107″

      “4/21/05: Obama voted for HR 1268, war appropriations in the amount of approximately $81 billion. Much of this funding went to Blackwater USA and Halliburton and disappeared. Roll call 109 ”

      “11/15/05: Obama voted for continued war, again. Roll call 326 was the vote on the Defense Authorization Act (S1042) which kept the war and war profiteering alive, restricted the right of habeas corpus and encouraged terrorism. Pursuant to his pattern, Obama voted for this. .”

      “12/21/05: Obama confirmed his support for war by voting for the Conference Report on the Defense Appropriations Act (HR 2863), Roll call 366, which provided more funding to Halliburton and Blackwater. ”

      “5/2/06: Obama voted for money for more war by voting for cloture on HR 4939, the emergency funding to Halliburton, Blackwater and other war profiteers. Roll call 103 .”

      “5/4/06: Obama, again, voted to adopt HR4939: emergency funding to war profiteers. Roll call 112 .”

      “6/13/06: Obama voted to commend the armed services for a bombing that killed innocent people and children and reportedly resulted in the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi… Michael Berg, whose son was reportedly killed by al-Zarqawi, condemned the attack and expressed sorrow over the innocent people and children killed in the bombing that Obama commended. Roll call 168 .”

      “6/15/06: Obama voted for the conference report on HR4939, a bill that gave warmongers more money to continue the killing and massacre of innocent people in Iraq and allows profiteers to collect more money for scamming the people of New Orleans. Roll Call 171 .”

      • UKforDems

        I think you will find most of the Democrat Party voted the same (including Hillary – a quick search of google and you can find that). The Democrat strategy in supporting the funding but opposing teh war was to ensure that Soldiers, who would not have been brought home by Bush were not left without bullets to defend themselves. Cheyney was good enough to do that to them anyway, the Democrats did not need to take the blame for that one.

        Of all seriousness is whether a governing party that brought the World Guantemelo Bay, extraordinary renditions, and torture should be forgiven not once but twice.

        • StrawberrybitesBarky

          You just shot down your own argument there Bunky. I’m guessing that’s why Mccain voted along those lines as well, for those exact reasons.

          • UKforDems

            You have people here comparing torture to a Theme Park ride and you take the piss out of me? This is not war funding. This is not who to put in jobs. This is whether torture is right or wrong. Simple question – Dems proposed a bill to outlaw torture by the US; something McCain, by his own experience should have voted for. So why vote against?

            • StrawberrybitesBarky

              Ok, who the hell is calling torture a theme park ride? Not me. Barky can not be trusted to take a stand on torture just like he can not be trusted on FISA or on Faith based programs, or public funding. He would vote for torture if it got him elected. And you can’t prove to me from his record as of late that he wouldn’t.

              • UKforDems

                Read further down the page. I trust you will rip in to this person.

                Comment by Teresa | 2008-07-03 13:44:53

                Torture is an experience so horrific that no one would even consider subjecting themselves to it. I have had the same reactions Hitchens did on some rides at Great America.

                Steve Harrigan also subjected himself to waterboarding. You should view his video and read his comments of his experience for balance.

                Steve Harrigan – balance my arse.

                • J. Cardozo

                  Two different people subjecting themselves to the same procedure and having two different opposing experiences creates a material issue of fact from which no single inference can be made.

                • StrawberrybitesBarky

                  Oh for fuck’s sake, can’t you read? Hitchen’s waterboarding was a controlled experience, you douche, he knew he couldn’t get hurt, but he was still very much affected by his experience, much like going on very frightening ride at a theme park, scary as hell but controlled, you won’t get hurt, get it? REAL TORTURE is worse because you KNOW they are going to hurt you, real terror. That was the point Theresa was making. Hitchens was not tortured but has now come to understand why torture is wrong. Damn, so much for me thinking the UK educated their people better.

                  • J. Cardozo

                    About 6-8 months ago or so, there was a report in the British press of a survey conducted in which 25% of those polled thought Winston Churchill was fictional and over 50% thought Sherlock Holmes was historical.

                    • StrawberrybitesBarky

                      Oh dear God. Well seeing how Obama thinks there’s 57 states, I’m not feeling so smug.

                    • AdoptedWelshWoman

                      Actually the report asked who is churchill and all the youngsters reponded the dog from the car insurance ad’s. (Churchill’s insurance.)

                      Not many schools teach the history of world war 2. My history lessons consisted of Britain 1815-1851, Church restorations and the tudors.

                      I lived in Thetford and we didn’t even study Thomas Paine.

                      Didn’t learn anything useful really!

                  • UKforDems

                    I think you may be getting angry because there may be agreement. The use of torture is NEVER justified.

                    • Karma

                      No.

                      She is frustrated because it took….YOU half the day….to realize that everyone here knows that torture is wrong.

                      You are so caught up in your version of the people here, you can’t even read people’s posts the way they intended.

    • KUKforDems

      Saw you at Kings Cross last night. You run those rent boys there, right?

  • Winston Smith

    It will be interesting to see how much overseas travel old George W. Bush takes on after he exits the White House. Here’s hoping that there are a few secret indictments waiting for him at the International Criminal Court, then maybe a guest spot on The Price is Right, and a big win in the Showcase Showdown, and a grand prize of a trip to the Hauge! Oh, one can only dream….

    • UKforDems

      Comment by Winston Smith | 2008-07-03 12:41:44

      It will be interesting to see how much overseas travel old George W. Bush takes on after he exits the White House. Here’s hoping that there are a few secret indictments waiting for him at the International Criminal Court, then maybe a guest spot on The Price is Right, and a big win in the Showcase Showdown, and a grand prize of a trip to the Hauge! Oh, one can only dream….

      The US does not recognise the ICC, so Bush cannot be prosecuted there. The US does not have to veto a prosecution of Blair though.

  • DancingOpossum

    Obamatroll, this is a serious discussion. Do not come here and make your childish, unwanted “lookatmeMOMMY” noises. Go away.

    • http://undercoverblackman.blogspot.com Undercover Black Man

      Larry has no one to blame but himself for ruining his once-estimable reputation as a commentator on world affairs. Alas, he’ll go down in the history of Campaign ’08 as a smearmonger and an Internet kook.

      • Hope Floats

        This has nothing to do with Larry’s reputation, and everything to do with how boring you are.

        • StrawberrybitesBarky

          Hope, They’re like a cloud of pesky no see’ums.

      • mountainlion

        shut up undercover blackman……is that you, obama ?

      • mahaska

        I’m guessing bo doen’t wear tighty whities.

    • UKforDems

      I agree it is a very serious issue and John McCain voted against the bill to ban the use of Waterboarding, amongst other forms of torture.

      • StrawberrybitesBarky

        Oy, can it, will you? Obama voted along the same lines. See up thread.

        • UKforDems

          McCain voted against the ban on torture. Obama did not. So no there is no canning it. Torture is wrong. Whether you chose to forgive / forget it is up to you but not a single Senior Democrat including Hillary, will agree that torture is something the US Government should be doing.

          • UKforDems

            (Except the Hon Member for Israel, Lieberman)

            • Bella

              Anti-semitic piece of shit.

              • UKforDems

                Not supporting a traitor to the Democrats who has continually excused every immoral action of the Israeli government is not anti semetic. Israel should not be beyond criticism.

            • AdoptedWelshWoman

              Where in the UK are you from?

              I’m from Wales.

              • rjj

                Did you say they taught Tudor history at your school, O,woman of wales?

                • AdoptedWelshWoman

                  yep raging from henry 8 to the elizabeth 1.

              • UKforDems

                Comment by AdoptedWelshWoman | 2008-07-03 16:14:59

                Where in the UK are you from?

                I’m from Wales.

                Ireland.

          • Karma

            Once again…..Obama is being given credit for….not voting!

            LOL

            http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/washington/14cong.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

            • UKforDems

              Campaigning elsewhere Wednesday, the remaining Democratic presidential candidates, Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Barack Obama of Illinois, did not vote

              • Karma

                Pssst…that was quoted at the same time…look below.

                You still gave him credit for opposing something he didn’t record a vote for or against.

                Attempting to float Obama’s ad, stump speech, and Senate tricks of taking credit where none is due…doesn’t equate to making factual points here. ;)

          • Karma

            From link upbove

            “Campaigning elsewhere Wednesday, the remaining Democratic presidential candidates, Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Barack Obama of Illinois, did not vote.”

    • Keyser

      Of course this wouldn’t be an issue if the proprietors of this chaotic site would implement some basic security and control.

  • roseeriter

    A little off topic but if anyone’s ever had an esophagus swallowing mammotery test where a tube is put in your nose and you have to drink water..well I thought I was going to drown and absolutely freaked out and that was a ‘legal’ medical test so I can only imagine what a ‘torture’ circumstance similar tactic under dire stress might feel like. Scary to say the least.

    • ginaswo still says no to Uhhbama

      hmmm and didnt they use dowsing in water to verify if someone was a witch or guilty of a crime at one point? if they floated they were guilty so they stoned them to death and if they drowned well then they were innocent..

      • Keyser

        Yeah that was a good system. Praise be to the human race. Wonderful species to be sure.

  • CheatedFLVoter

    Thanks Larry. I have heard waterboarding talked about so much, but had no idea what it was. Just watching I got a tightness in my throat. Torture is barbaric and should never be used, especially by Americans.

  • http://www.apj.us Gene Gaudette

    Well said, Larry. Hitchens’s video is probably not enough to shake the hardcore Bushies — heck, I’d wager you a buck a majority of them enjoyed it — but it’s the sort of viral media that will get more people thinking about the niggling (read: I don’t want to confront the) matter of torture and america.

    After having read the title, I’ll admit a brief bit of snarky ROTFLMAO once I knew who the subject of the blog entry was! The joke that had gone around NY’s literary biz circles is that the original title of Hitchens’ recent atheist polemic was “God Is Dead, and I’m So Hung Over I Wish I Were Too”.

  • http://paganpower.wordpress.com/ PaganPower

    Thank you for posting this. I now understand why this is wrong even though I objected to it previously. Seeing is believing.

    Hitchens deserves credit for having the tenacity and courage to go through this himself and to allow it to be videotaped. And his comments do a great service to humanity.

    Thank you!

  • Neine

    “We have frequently failed to live up to the high ideals we espouse (e.g., preaching that all men are created equal while preserving slavery, etc.)”

    Men created equals…well I guess humans created equals is not between yours high ideals. No problem with women’s discrimination only with slavery (no doubt black slavery). But women slavery is a problem too? Is that “etc” in the sentece?

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      Like it or not, the Declaration of Independence did not contain the phrase, “all humans”. If you are incapable of understanding that point you should probably spend your time elsewhere. You are not smart enough to take part in the dialogue on this blog.

      • anonymous

        I do request better quality trolls. These outsourced trolls don’t deserve the pay they get. ;)

  • open mind

    Thank you for posting this. We prosecuted for this in the past. And now it is excused. See Think Progress.org for some of the apologetic things some people have said about waterboarding. It should not be a political issue. It should simply be un-American.

    • lidia

      Torture is as “American” as apple pie (or CIA)

      You might do not know it, but when in 1964 there was a right-wing military coup in Brazil, some USA policemen, who had been send there to train local police, started to train them TO TORTUE.

      “The systematic use of torture was also condoned if not encouraged by U.S. AID officials. Police in Brazil once speculated on what the Public Safety Advisor Dan Mitrione would do if he were witness to the torturing of a prisoner. One said he would leave. Another asked, “Where, the country?” “No,” said the first, “leave the room.”40 To this day, the U.S. Public Safety Program in Brazil has assisted in the training of over 100,000 federal and state police personnel. Moreover, 600 high-ranking officers have received training at the now-defunct International Police Academy (IPA) on the campus of Georgetown University in Washington DC.41 The United States is also responsible for the construction, equipping, and development of the curriculum and faculty of Brazil’s National Police Academy, its National Telecommunications Center; and the National Institute of Criminalistics and Identification.”

      • Karma

        It is called the ‘School of the Americas’.

        And yes many are aware of the fight of the ideologies…that is called world history.

        Obama’s advisor Zbig is no stranger to such techniques since he shared them and more with the mujahedeen in Afghanistan to employ against the Soviets.

        Of course, that doesn’t matter, because under the umbrella of the hopey changey one, Zbig will be nice. LOL

  • UKforDems

    It is a political issue and it is why Bush (and Blair) should both be tried for war crimes. The Republicans NuLab scum in the UK should never be forgiven for scrapping the freedoms that were hard fought for and hard won – all in the name of anti-terrorist legislation. If you get rid of freedom to stop terrorism – who has won?

    • open mind

      I agree is IS a political issue. It just obviously should not be one in this country. Waterboarding should be illegal and the current administration should be held accountable.

    • AdoptedWelshWoman

      How are New Labour Republicans? What about Cook?

      • UKforDems

        Comment by AdoptedWelshWoman | 2008-07-03 17:56:53

        How are New Labour Republicans? What about Cook?

        NuLab is about as popular as George Bush – the Conservative Party is polling over 50%.

        As for Cook; I am guessing Robin Cook? Well, he should have learnt from David Kelly, the UK WMD Scientist who suggested Blair was “sexing up” the evidence on Iraq, or his former Party Leader John Smith. Walks in country parks cause heart attacks.

  • Teresa

    Torture is an experience so horrific that no one would even consider subjecting themselves to it. I have had the same reactions Hitchens did on some rides at Great America.

    Steve Harrigan also subjected himself to waterboarding. You should view his video and read his comments of his experience for balance.

  • standard

    I am so with you on this, Larry.
    America MUST stand for something.

  • UKforDems

    This is not some fairground ride. The captees are left blindfolded – they are not told this is waterboarding, this may be a little uncomfortable. They are made to believe that they are drowning. If the West does not have as its standard the rule of law – it has no standard.

    • Delta1

      You have probably never been in a commercial flight simulator. You can be made to feel like you have lost control of the aircraft and will be nose diving into the ground at 600 knots. Extreme fright is experienced upon imminent impact. Is that torture or training?

      • UKforDems

        Comment by Delta1 | 2008-07-03 14:11:49

        You have probably never been in a commercial flight simulator. You can be made to feel like you have lost control of the aircraft and will be nose diving into the ground at 600 knots. Extreme fright is experienced upon imminent impact. Is that torture or training?

        The pilot knows it is a simulator, is paying for it and knows they are getting out. The poor sap being tortured thinks he will die and is ready to tell anyone who will listen that they are a pink fluffy axe murdering suicide bombing rabbit if they think they will not be drowned. Torture cannot be compared to simulators or theme park rides, it also does not work.

        • Delta1

          Hitchens knew too he was getting out, so this by your very words is a simulation. He knew he was not going to die. True torture can not be simulated.

          • StrawberrybitesBarky

            UK is an idiot, we’re trying to tell him that Hitchens was not tortured but he wants to believe that we think real torture is like a theme park ride. He’s a douche. He can’t distinguish between the two arguments. Typical Obama supporter.

          • UKforDems

            Comment by Delta1 | 2008-07-03 14:39:55

            Hitchens knew too he was getting out, so this by your very words is a simulation. He knew he was not going to die. True torture can not be simulated.

            I agree, which is why it is wrong to compare it to a theme park ride or to say the Fox News demonstration is “balanced”. The only way he could see how bad it was would be for him to have been unexpectedly fake kidnapped and then have it tried on him.

            The methods of interrogation, including sleep pattern disorder that go on in GITMO are even worse. Waterboarding is just one example of what has been allowed by Cheyney & Rumsfield.

  • lmv

    It’s great that Hitchens has wised up some 5 years into the war.

    At least, he’s realized and admitted he was wrong.

    • Ani

      Likewise, I admire him for having the courage to subject himself to this — he lasted all of five seconds, by the way — can you imagine what the real thing is like — without an “off switch”?

      But that admiration would have increased 100 fold had he done this five years ago when it might have done some good to others.

      I am a little sick and tired of those who screamed the loudest about what a great thing Bush’s war was now come to the table with a different story after years of bloodshed and lives lost. Never mind the damage to our reputation around the world.

  • Ani

    If it makes me weak that I cannot bear to treat other human beings like this, then I am weak.

    I am also an American. I am naive enough and old fashioned enough to hope and believe that the ideals our country are founded on do not permit this type of treatment.

    I think when we condone waterboarding and other forms of torture, the terrorists win.

  • lidia

    that the ideals our country are founded

    What ideals? the genocide of Natives or the slavery?

  • Karma

    Exactly, terrorism should be fought with appropriate tools.

    Not ones that have been repeatedly proven to provide unreliable results.

    Thanks for showing this.

    • Bobby Seale

      Exactly, terrorism should be fought with appropriate tools.

      I agree, we should treat terrorism as nothing more than the criminal offense it is and issue warrants posthumously upon a proper showing of probable cause for the arrest of every perpetrator of a suicide attack.

      • Karma

        Torture isn’t an appropriate tool because it doesn’t produce reliable results.

        If you want to scare people…it works…but for intelligence gathering it doesn’t.

        The military kept informing them that torture was not providing the WMD intel that the Bush Admin wanted.

        However, I suspect they knew the limits and spreading fear and retribution in the Middle East was the true goal. Because they already knew where the oil fields were and they left those ammo depots wide open for the ‘enemy’. ;)

        When the Bush Admin went into Iraq with 100,000 boots on the ground. Clearly, they were looking to a protracted engagement in order to have the time to build those bases. Their torture program helped to provide more volunteers for slaughter/an excuse to stay.

        Bush could be right…50 years from now history might judge him honorably for trying to seize the oil.

        As it stands now, it is impossible to excuse the world wide pain his actions have caused. Torture included.

      • UKforDems

        Comment by Bobby Seale | 2008-07-03 15:07:39

        Exactly, terrorism should be fought with appropriate tools.

        I agree, we should treat terrorism as nothing more than the criminal offense it is and issue warrants posthumously upon a proper showing of probable cause for the arrest of every perpetrator of a suicide attack.

        I’m not sure if this was supposed to be irony but you will not stop a suicide bomber by torturing a probably unrelated person.

  • http://www.despair.com/changewinds.html Smilin’ Jim

    “Guys who have never actually been involved with interrogations or endured such training”
    ——–Larry Johnson

    Is an echo of:

    “My sincere view is that the commitment of our forces to this fight was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions — or bury the results.”
    ——–Greg Newbold

    What can you expect after eight years of governance by draft dodgers turned wannabe Rambo?
    ———Smilin’ Jim

    • Fred C. Dobbs

      A-mf’ing-MEN, Jim!

      The clowns at the levers weren’t even REMF’s, much less leaders or fighters.

      Although to be fair, no North Vietnamese MiGs ever got past Seguin while Our Beloved Leader was on Strip Alert in Houston!

  • Retired

    I have to disagree with my former colleague on one point. It is irrelevant whether torture works or not. The issue is whether we are going to suspend our moral standards in order to preserve them.

    Historiacally, I cannot think of a society that has successfully done this. Over time, torture has a corrupting effect both on the individual practitioners in the short term as well as the society that condones its practice in the longer term. I have witnessed this first hand.

    There is something about torture that turns the motivation for it in even disciplined interrogators from extracting information to a sense of enjoyment on the part of the interrogator. I don’t know what causes this, but I have seen it happen enough times to believe it.

    For the society that condones torture in order to preserve its morality, over the longer term, acceptance of torture leads to the questioning of other moral standards. If we accept torture, can we accespt, say, murder of non-combatants as something that is necessary to keep our enemies in line?

    Is the concept of destroying a moral society in order to save it valid? Certainly something to think about.

  • Fred C. Dobbs

    Bully for Hitchens. My estimation of his mettle came up about a notch and a quarter.

    Now he is entitled to a mild, modest swagger as he makes his journey of thousands of tiny, mincing strides across the vaste wasteland of mediocrity.

    When we threw the bound, blindfolded prisoners from a helicopter at three foot altitude Back in the Day…was that torture?

    Scared the first one shitless, but the SECOND one got very, very chatty almost instantly.

  • Taters

    Well done Larry, yes – like you and Fred my estimation of Hitch has gone up a peg or two.
    I hope all is well, my friend. As you know I’ve been trying to salvage a summer.

    Retired, you ask an interesting question. This is an excerpt from Atlantic a few issues back from an article entitled ‘Double Blind’ – I thought this might be of interest. It’s about two British double agents who had penetrated the IRA.

    This came clear to Kevin Fulton on the day his cover as an IRA man collapsed. It happened inside an IRA safe house in north Belfast, in 1994. Fulton sat facing a wall, blindfolded. Curtains shut out the pale light of winter. Bottles lay scattered on the floor, and the place stank of stale beer. An interrogator paced the room, his boots scuffing against the floor. He said, “I know what yer done, boyo.”

    He pressed a thick index finger against Fulton’s temple, hard, then leaned in close to Fulton’s ear and murmured a series of threats: The IRA hunts down all snitches and executes them. Two quick bullets in the brain. Remember the boy from County Armagh who left behind the pregnant wife. Remember the boy from County Louth who left seven children mewling for a father. Remember them all.

    British authorities had recently picked up Fulton for questioning. Now the IRA, which had begun to suspect him of being a British agent, wanted to know why.

    Again, the finger to the temple.

    “What did you tell them?”

    Fulton knew the voice, and its owner: Scap, one of the IRA’s most feared interrogators. Fulton had once helped prepare safe houses for such interrogations, and knew that sometimes Scap’s subjects survived. Sometimes not.

    Colleagues called both men “hard bastards”—true IRA boys, mothered by terrorism. They killed for the cause, time and again. But British spies had infiltrated the IRA, spreading deceit and rumors of deceit. The IRA had turned against itself. Scap couldn’t say for sure who fought on his side.

    The interrogation dragged on for hours. Fulton remained outwardly calm, and denied everything. Inwardly, though, he felt sick. He’d been spying on the IRA for a decade and a half, and he knew that if Scap broke him—if he admitted anything—he’d be a dead man—own a hole,” in IRA slang.

    So throughout the interrogation, Fulton sat stone-faced, blindfolded, and facing the wall. Double blind. He held tight to his secret: yes, he was a British spy.

    But then, so was his interrogator.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200604/ira-spy

  • Pieter B

    Larry, I have to disagree with you. Hitchens has for several years been reviling those who have called waterboarding torture. He has used the euphemisms “rough interrogation” and “extreme interrogation,” to differentiate the practice from “outright torture.” He has condemned Amnesty International and the ACLU, and would not have subjected himself to this had he not been challenged to do so by critics of that position. Even in his Vanity Fair piece he indulges in the moral relativism that while waterboarding is torture, the other side has done much worse, and seems to regret more that the world has discovered we do this than that we do it.

    The only way that someone can read about the history and practice of the “water cure” and still maintain that it is not torture, as Hitchens did for several years, is if that person is completely lacking in empathy, and mental-health professionals have some unpleasant words for that condition.

    It’s said that knowledge is learning from your own experience, and wisdom is learning from the experience of others; Hitchens is a wise guy, not a wise man. Until he apologizes for his previous condemnation and calumny toward those who figured out that we were waterboarding prisoners and that waterboarding really is torture, I won’t be joining in your praise of him.

  • Obama is a bum

    Last March 5, Hitchens said Hillary is “like a wounded puma, going to fight to the very end for the last delegate”.

    Hitchens was on to something but the puma is getting stronger.

  • taters

    Pieter B,
    Nice post. However, giving credit is not what I exactly call praising, IMHO. Hitchens has not been a popular fellow around these parts, lol. His (Hitchens) friendship and defense of Chalabi, his attacks on the Wilsons, his acceptance of the Butler Commission’s bs – Niger, etc has made his judgment here more than suspect. Larry has taken him to the shed here more than once. But if you want a literary critique of Somerset Maugham, Hitchens may be your guy. I wish others that condone waterboarding would allow themselves to be subjected to it.

  • Pieter B

    Taters, thank you for the kind words. I’m truly flattered, and I’ll try to be more careful in my wording in the future, although most definitions of “credit” are fairly close to “praise.”

    I’ve got a little list of people who need the experience myself. Perhaps next time you play L.A. we could compare our lists over a glass or two.

  • http://link Roy55

    As is the case with medications. ,