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Terrorists’ Right to Remain Silent or Holder’s Kangaroo Court?

It’s evident, as this satire reflects:

I’m sure we all agree that Miranda warnings for U.S. citizens are a precious right. (See the original Supreme Court decision and its history: Miranda v. Arizona.) Most everyone, thanks to countless TV shows, is aware of that right. And, also thanks to TV dramas, we’ve all seen instances in which an innocent person accused of a crime inadvertently said something to the police that came back to haunt him/her. Had this person taken advantage of having an attorney present, s/he would have advised the accused to remain silent.

letter-brennan-sThe image shows a cropped portion of Justice William E. Brennan, Jr.’s letter to Chief Justice Earl Warren. (At that same site — “American Treasures of the Library of Congress” — you can view Justice Warren’s handwritten notes on Miranda.)

But should this right be extended to alien terrorists, even on foreign soil? Should Osama bin Laden be Mirandazed?

And who could not shudder when the inept Attorney General Eric Holder fumbled around on that question posed by Senator Lindsey Graham (who is also Col. Lindsey Graham, an Air Force Reservist)?

Or his legally insane assurance that there’s no way KSM can not be convicted??? Uh, then… uh…what is the point of a U.S. trial with all of its precious built-in safeguards for the accused? Every attorney, judge and law professor in the country must have fallen over Wednesday when they heard that unethical — yes, unethical, as well as wholly legally unsound — ass-urance. And it makes a mockery of our heralded system of justice, turning this upcoming trial into a de facto “kangaroo court.” We should all feel aghast that our chief law enforcement officer would advocate such a sham trial.

Not for nothing, but the US has spent a whole ton of our money building “state-of-the-art” courtrooms in Guantanamo. As one might guess, they were built just for the purpose of trying these enemy combatants.

The NPR blog describes the astounding interaction in the following video:

[...] In one of the highlights of Wednesday’s Justice Department oversight hearing by the Senate Judiciary Committee, Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican, attempted to put Holder on the spot with the question: would U.S. officials need to Mirandize Osama bin Ladin if it captured him, including telling the al Qaeda leader that he had the right to remain silent?

Holder essentially said no, not necessarily. It would depend on the tack the U.S. government decided to take after capturing the terrorist leader. Graham clearly wasn’t persuaded by Holder’s answer.

The exchange started with Graham stumping Holder with a question one would have thought the attorney general would have been prepared for: … (transcript follows)

This man is our chief law enforcement officer? This man is also in charge of numerous law enforcement divisions like the FBI? Lord god almighty.

What it this? Hell’s bells. The Hapless Hopeless Holder has a terminal case of liberal lunacy.

And here’s an interesting finding from the blog at The Weekly Standard, “Schumer in 2001: “Ludicrous” to Try 9/11 Plotters in Civilian Courts“:

… the Washington Times unearths a quote from New York Senator Chuck Schumer in which, just a few weeks after the 9/11 attacks, Schumer mocks the idea that anyone would give the 9/11 plotters the same rights afforded to American citizens charged with pick-pocketing.

There are also those prisoners of war who we have captured and will capture in Afghanistan and other countries who will receive a trial of some sort. It is clear we need to try those suspects in a forum that achieves two primary goals—two goals, I might add, that may not conflict. First, the Government must have the power to use even the most sensitive classified evidence against these suspects without compromising national security in any way, shape, or form. In addition, those who commit acts of war against the United States, particularly those who have no color of citizenship, don’t deserve the same panoply of due process rights that American citizens receive. Should Osama bin Laden be captured alive—and I imagine most Americans hope he won’t be captured alive. But if he is, it is ludicrous to suggest he should be tried in a Federal court on Center Street in Lower Manhattan.

Yesterday, when Holder was asked whether bin Laden would be read Miranda rights if he were captured by U.S. forces, his answer: “that all depends…” Ed Morrissey asks, “What has changed in eight years to transform KSM and his cohorts into people who do ‘deserve the same panoply of due process rights that American citizens receive’?” On that, the Washington Times was unable to get a straight answer from Schumer.

Yeah. Right. It does all depend. On who’s in charge, and who has the C.S. — that plain ol’ C.S. (aka Common Sense) — to make sound judgments.

Larry Johnson has it right in his post, “Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Will Destroy Obama .” But not before making a laughing stock of our country for giving this platform to KSM, or before saddling New York City with costs it can ill afford (and no, the city and state do not get fully reimbursed for their costs). Never mind how sensitive information will be handled. It really makes you wonder just what the Obama Administration hopes to gain from this politically? Make no mistake, this is all about politics. If it was about the law, Attorney General Holder would have known the answer to Senator Graham’s questions…

Bronwyn’s Note: Thank you to Reverend Amy and Larry Johnson for their remarkably astute ideas and edits that made this post better. You’re both great editors, and we all benefit from such fine editing.

  • Galt goes to Hollywood

    Holder = chief of the Keystone Cops.

  • jbjd

    OT: I am the guest tonight on drkate’s Revolution Radio. We will be discussing next steps in addressing election fraud, and answering listeners’ questions.
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/drkate/2009/11/20/drkates-revolution-radio

  • http://deleted BuzzisbackLatte

    No matter what you may think of Lindsey Graham, he did rip Eric Holder a new one. Wasn’t Graham an attorney in the military?

    The entire clip was a thing of beauty…for Graham.

  • hokma

    Yes. Graham was a JAG lawyer and knows a hell of a lot more about military tribunals than Holder.

    In fact, the most troubling question was:

    SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R-S.C): Can you give me a case in United States history where a enemy combatant caught on a battlefield was tried in civilian court?

    ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I don’t know. I’d have to look at that.

    Don’t know? On what basis was this decision made? It certainly was not based on legal precedent which would have been the first thing that qualified attorneys base a decision on.

    In addition, both genius attorneys, Holder and Obama, may have prejudiced this case by guaranteeing a conviction before there has been a trial. The defense attorneys could ask for a dismissal.

    This was done for two reasons:

    1. To put the Bush Administration and the CIA on trial for the benefit of the 2010 and 2012 elections.

    2. To tell radical Islamists that they regard September 11 as an isolated felony and not an act of war.

  • lark

    Tomorrow call your Senators or write them to tell them to vote for the Health Care bill.

    The explain to them the following:

    http://www.breitbart.tv/raw-footage-32-inflation-in-ucla-tuition-causes-riots/

    Explain to them that once the U.S. Treasure begins the process of declaring bankruptcy and the dollar descends to 1/10th. or less than what is worth today, then we will see riots like those in UCLA except 100 times worst. And yes, in your State.

    Politicians simply want to vote and later throw the cops and the army at citizens when they begin to protest and rise up when food and other staples will begin to cost more than 10 times what they cost now.

    At that time Reid and Pelosi will retire from their careers as Senators and go home to enjoy their millions which at that time will be their thousands, but will assume zero responsibility over the lives of citizens who begin to starve and live in the streets, destitute and in contempt for the law.

  • Bronwyn’s Harbor

    This is a great comment, worthy of status as a post.

    That “I don’t know” remark. Holy cow. Taking your thesis that this was political — and the quotes in Larry’s fine post also make this point — the real problem is that, if he had dared to be honest, he would have said, “I don’t care.” Because I really think he doesn’t care.

  • jbjd

    Just got word from drkate; tonight’s show on Revolution Radio postponed until 9:30.
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/drkate/2009/11/20/drkates-revolution-radio

  • http://deleted BuzzisbackLatte

    True: The decision to try KSM in NY is simply another con disguised as what’s best for the country according to Saint Obama and his band of Merry theives.

    The “I don’t know…” remark was not only chilling, it was downright arrogant. Apparently Holder doesn’t need to know anything, he just needs to participate in bad, bad, bad decisions. What it conveyed was that they are so sainted they don’t need to actually come up to anything and be responsible.

    Holder’s poor performance was just another example of America’s Affirmative Action Administration.

  • http://N/A breeze
  • ziggy

    Read Article 2, Part (a)(8) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The UCMJ applies to “Prisoners of war in custody of the armed forces.”

    http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/ucmjart2.htm

    Then read Article 31, with special attention to Part (b) and Part (d):

    (b) No person subject to this chapter may interrogate, or request any statement from an accused or a person suspected of an offense without first informing him of the nature of the accusation and advising him that he does not have to make any statement regarding the offense of which he is accused or suspected and that any statement made by him may be used as evidence against him in a trial by court-martial.

    (d) No statement obtained from any person in violation of this article, or through the use of coercion, unlawful influence, or unlawful inducement may be received in evidence against him in a trial by court-martial.

    http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/ucmj/blart-31.htm

    A military tribunal would have a legal issue almost identical to the civil court Miranda issue.

  • Right on the Left Coast

    That truly is the most disturbing answer to me, as well. Our Attorney General made an extremely controversial decision without doing any due diligence as to historical or legal precedence.

    Even the most ardent Obama supporter must find this lack of care for our judicial system troubling.

    BH makes a great point. The fact that Holder and Obama have both said publicly that they are confident that KSM will be convicted, even put to death…and the political fallout for that not happening would be un-freaking-believable…they are running the risk now of it being viewed around the world as a rigged show trial only.

    Kinda like they run in these countries for which Obama says we are trying to be a good example.

    Holder has backed us into a deep, deep corner. This is totally irresponsible.

  • Galt goes to Hollywood

    Our Attorney General made an extremely controversial decision without doing any due diligence as to historical or legal precedence.

    It is also plausible he did research this, but chose to ignore what he found. Arrogance of power.

  • HARP

    Part of their argument is to show the world our justice system. We did that after the first bombing and all we got was embassy bombings, USS Cole and 9/11.
    Maybe Obama was too busy kissing Rev Wrights ass to notice.

  • TeakWoodKite

    Thanks Bronwyn’s Harbor for posting this.

    What I have been looking for is the “protocol” document that the AG and the senators had and refered to. Apparently Holder has some rubics cube for who gets criminal or militrary tribunals.

    Following Hokma’s great line of insight, it also was made apparent the process is decided on who was tortured and just how much evidence can be admitted that will exeonerate Islam by slamming Bush and CO.

    The other aspect was that caught my attention was when Graham asked if he had disscussed this with BO.
    He said he had not spoken to BO about it. Whilst I agree there is a need for independence, but the AG is expecting me to buy that pile of “crap”?

    @LJ, if he cares, then why expose NYC to this? The AG states that the Southern District has the most experience conducting these proceedings but I think that response, while true, was not the whole answer.

  • http://deleted BuzzisbackLatte

    The problem is: no one defined if KSM was initially captured as a prisoner from an enemy combatant force of a military action ie war.

    Nice try, but Graham is correct.

  • Beez_Waxing

    Well I don’t know why you Democrats are so upset with the AG. After all, you and he are determined to bring the criminals to justice, right? And since messers Cheney and Bush are the criminals you and Holder have sor so long wanted to “frog march” to the federal courthouse, it should all work out for the best, right? … Right???

    Jeeezus who gives a shit about all this anymore since the country is in the hands of the union thugs. This country is effin’ lost if you ask me. And we can thank people all those bipartisan types like my Senator, Bill Nelson (DEMOCRAT) for it. Thanks Dems … you let the freakazoid left take over your party, now you are all only askin’ how high to jump when Andy Stern the union thug says jump.

  • Galt goes to Hollywood

    Well I don’t know why you Democrats are so upset with the AG

    Beez_Waxing, most people on this blog are ex-Dems or dissenting Dems who did not vote for Obama, and therefor their hands are clean re Holder and have every moral right to complain.

  • ziggy

    Graham would apparently have KSM tried by the same entity that previously beat a confession out of him, while the hangman or firing squad waits outside.

    That wouldn’t be my own take. But that’s how it could easily be portrayed, and that’s almost certainly the perception that would be played against us by our enemies.

  • NomNomNom

    the status of the prisoners at Guantanamo has not been definitively determined
    Bush classified them as unlawful enemy combatants, BHO calls them unprivileged enemy belligerents: neither called/s them prisoners of war
    http://www.acslaw.org/pdf/enemycombatants.pdf a summary of cases dealing with this issue

  • TeakWoodKite

    Ziggy, that was part Senator Whitehouse’s questioning of the AG. The AG responding that the body of appellate precedence being greater in the Federal criminal courts than military proceedings.

    This is a double edged sword. Answer this simple question, if in criminal court who are a “jury of their peers”?

    I would think that a JAG might know a fair deal more than Holder on this topic.

    The prejudicial statements of Holder stating that he “can’t see any other outcome but guilty in seeking the death penalty, is the same sort of comment that got Ashcroft in hot water.

  • Obamastolemycountry

    I did not vote for Obama and became an non democrat on 5/31/08 for sure, but really from March 08 they were losing me, anyway, I begged people not to vote for Obama. I begged! I told them all the bad things I knew about him and not too many would listen because they believed if Obama was that bad, they’d hear about it on the news. You know who is a big group to blame???? The MSM! They gave us this BS sandwhich! Even FOX. I know for a fact they knew about Obama’s past. I know because I frequently sent them articles and so did others I knew!!!! Most people here would have given their right arm to have had Hillary and then even for Mccain! No, we are stuck with this America Hater in chief and not only am I sick to death of his BS, but I am terrified about what these disaster deliverers are doing to this country!!! I am very upset about this KSM crap! I do not see why this would not be an impeachable offense. Obama has taken our constitution and is wiping his ass with it!

  • ziggy

    I don’t believe “peers” implies that gay people must be judged by gay people, rich people by rich people, white people by white people, Protestants by Protestants, raving lunatics by raving lunatics, etc. Rather, by an assortment of rational, reasonable people who are not previously decided on the matter of the defendant’s guilt or innocence. That last part is tough, but I would imagine there are such people, since no one in the general public has ever been given any actual evidence to consider. We really only have the government’s allegations. Last I checked, the government did have a certain number of skeptics.

  • TeakWoodKite

    And more interested in being an American citizen before party affiliation, speaking only for myself and by obsevation.

  • HARP

    As I understand it, a death sentence resulting from a military trial can not be carried out without the presidents personal approval. Could this be why KSM is to get a civilian trial? Obama would not want the Muslim world to hold him accountable.

    Any thoughts?

  • http://deleted BuzzisbackLatte

    Sounds like KSM is your BFF.

    Oh, let’s see. It’s really important to please everyone rather than setting a bar for prosecuting terrorist acts. You and Obama must exchange Christmas cards.

    There are so many problems with this move: ie: KSM being judged by a jury of his peers and the fact that both Obama and Holder have, in essence, prejudiced the case by saying there will most likely be a conviction, it boggles the mind that these losers run the country.

  • TeakWoodKite

    I wasn’t saying that either.

    \

    “since no one in the general public has ever been given any actual evidence to consider.”

    The 9/11 commision testimony was completely inaccurate? I know there was alot of BS going on and much was never investigated or disclosed. But they are dead on arrival.

  • http://deleted BuzzisbackLatte

    That’s way too naive a position and I suspect you know it. Besides the government allegations, there are confessions, several missing blocks of buildings in NYC, and nearly 3,000 people dead.

    The evidence is compelling, has already been spelled out repeatedly in the media, and also been, in essence tried and decided by Obama and Holder with their statements about a probable conviction.

    You’d probably be able to find a few Yanamamo indians who have not heard of this, but then they wouldn’t be citizens or peers to sit on a jury.

  • http://deleted BuzzisbackLatte

    IMHO, It’s most likely been discussed as a repercussion of a military trial.

    However, they could also let KSM rot in prison w/out ever carrying out a death sentence.

    If I ruled the world Solution: KSM would only be provided the basics that were given to him by his country while in prison. Strictly monitored, of course. If his country fails to provide, who’s worse – the US or his country? Puts the responsibility for his sorry excuse for a life right back where it belongs – on the place he’s from that generates terrorism.

    Of course they wouldn’t provide, he’d die a martyr’s death, and the US didn’t technically kill him.

  • Cathy in Ks.

    I supported Hillary during the democratic primaries and later McCain for president. I’m still a member of the democratic party, but as I tell friends and family, a very “reluctant” democrat.

    I’m not shocked by the lies and deception practiced by Obama and many in his administration but I’m appalled at how incredibly dumb they are which I guess, to quote Martha, “is a good thing”. At least they are more easily exposed in their chicanery. The “bad thing” is that there is so much “bad news” concerning this administration that it’s hard to stay on top of everything.

  • ziggy

    It’s not a matter of pleasing anybody. I think there’s a lot more to this than simply meting out justice in accordance with the law to one particular terrorist. If you can diminish the elements of ideology and focus on the act, which is what a civil trial might do, what’s left on display is a mass murderer–the same sort of person who frequently blows up other Muslims. With a military trial and the implied designation of “enemy combatant”, that’s not so easy.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTmLKUT817Y Eldear Jhane

    100% agree

  • Doc99

    This just in … AP discovers Radical Muslim Websites! And in other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

  • jbjd

    OSMC, I am not trying to appease you by saying this but, I assure you, so many of us who also tried to prevent BO’s election are working very hard to expose the information the MSM missed, which millions of citizens did not bother to obtain on their own. Or perhaps some portion of the millions of citizens who supported BO’s Presidency did so notwithstanding this same information. But clearly, we (collectively) failed to grasp the public/private distinction between the DNC and government and so, failed to stop ‘them’ before ‘they’ stole the nomination. I am consoled by knowing 1) those who would steal my power had a 2+ year head start; 2) I now understand what they did, and can make them pay for their conduct; and 3) I can prevent them from doing this again. But I will need your help.

  • James

    “Obama has taken our constitution and is wiping his ass with it!”

    People keep saying that about Obama, but they can’t give any real examples showing where he’s disregarded constitutional law. They fall back on subjective perceptions, or on some other highly questionable and totally unsubstantiated assertion.

    With his predecessor, a very strong argument can be made simply by examining the Presidential Directives. The general public would be shocked sh*tless if they had any real understanding of the full implications of many of those. For a number of the past 8 years, we weren’t even living in a constitutional democracy. Many of our fundamental constitutional rights had gone straight out the window. Most people didn’t even seem to notice.

    Get some perspective.

  • There is credible evidence James

    Comment by jbjd | 2009-11-19 23:11:12

    Yes, there is credible evidence of massive election fraud. Read the Complaints of Election Fraud to State Attorneys General, posted on the front of my blog. (SC is my personal favorite.)
    http://jbjd.wordpress.com

  • http://deleted BuzzisbackLatte

    Oh, if it only were that simple. It would save the country millions and put a few paralegals out of work.

    You have to go bigger and deeper on both options. That’s where Graham was trying to get Holder to go to understand the administration’s decision making process.

    Instead, Holder did the “I don’t know.” routine.

    Question: Wouldn’t a military trial also bring out the craven act of mass murder? The MO of such an act is terrorism and is not exclusive to muslims. Point is: Did muslim jihadists declare war on the US and then act? Or was this a criminal action that could be seen as a civil court matter much like McVeigh? Was this an act of military aggression or not? Do jihadis see themselves as “soldiers” for a cause?

    It’s much too complicated for the simple answer Holder and Obama are trying to get the nation to swallow.

  • NomNomNom

    KSM can’t get the death penalty anyway, New York doesn’t have it.

  • NomNomNom

    :oops: oops sorry, I didn’t realize it had been reinstated

  • ziggy

    em>Question: Wouldn’t a military trial also bring out the craven act of mass murder?

    My thinking is that war creates a different sort of context for such acts. We–meaning human beings–seem to judge mass killings and mass destruction very differently in the context of a war than in the context of peace. Such things are expected to happen, and are rationalized by making reference to causes, ideologies, etc. There are circumstances in war that make such things lawful and excusable to people who would otherwise see them as immoral and inexcusable.

    I suspect the military trial of an enemy combatant would tend to put someone more into that war context–at least in the minds of people in other parts of the world who might be looking at things from a Muslim point of view. It a subtle perceptual shift for us–he’s a terrorist murderer in either case–but one that might have major effects on perception elsewhere.

    That’s why I see a certain plus to treating the guy as a civilian criminal who has planned and facilitated the mass murder of nearly 3,000 innocent civilians.

    I don’t discount the complications and dangers of a civilian trial. Best case scenario would be an early guilty plea, which I think might be a possibility. As has been opined before, this isn’t your normal case of someone who wants to escape justice. He wants the credit, wants to say his piece in the spotlight, and wants his martyrdom.

  • http://deleted BuzzisbackLatte

    Bingo, so why give him the platform to do so?

    To do so can be seen as condoning future acts because, after all, America will let you spout your ideology! Come on over! Bomb us! And get to state your murderous ideology! Wow! Isn’t America magnanimous and all inclusive! Who cares if a few more citizens die for the cause of jihad!

    Also, why give a foreign national the same rights as a citizen of the United States?

  • http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/11/20/apparently-holder-has-other-things-to-do/ Apparently, Holder Has Other Things To Do : NO QUARTER

    [...] to NYC for a Civilian trial, for pete’s sake (for recent posts on this topic, go HERE and HERE). I mean, really – he’s got his hands full being schooled by Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) on [...]

  • FLDemFem

    “Miranda” is not just for citizens, it’s for anyone arrested, by civilian police, on US sovereign territory. I know this because there was a landmark case a couple of decades ago over whether an illegal alien had the right to be Mirandized. The Supreme Court said YES they do. So, my solution to this conundrum is that KSM be tried under an ancient law of Islam, which states that the father of the murder victim gets to mete out the punishment to the murderer. Just put KSM in a room with the fathers of the 9/11 victims and see how much of him survives. Surely the jihadists would appreciate our bow to their culture and laws even if KSM doesn’t survive the encounter.

  • http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/12/07/ksm-we-bless-america/ Take This, KSM: We Bless America : NO QUARTER

    [...] my “Terrorists’ Right to Remain Silent or Holder’s Kangaroo Court?,” [...]

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