Larry Johnson on CNN Today: The Trial of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab
By Bronwyn's Harbor on January 8, 2010 at 6:10 PM in Current Affairs
From Larry Johnson’s remarks today on CNN Newsroom with host Kyra Phillips:
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Look, the FBI — I’ve got a lot — even though I’m former CIA, former State Department, lots of friends in the FBI. The FBI has very good investigators. They’re actually the ones who know how to interrogate subjects. The CIA has no experience with that. FBI has lots of experience, and they are able to get information out through a variety of techniques, all of it legal, none of it involving torture. So, again, this 24-hour methodology that has been built up over this nonsense that the only way to get information is to torture people, that’s written by Hollywood screenwriters who don’t know what they’re talking about and by people in government who have these bizarre fantasies of a brutalizing people. The fact of the matter is, the FBI, law enforcement is very effective at getting information from suspects, particularly when you’ve got the goods on them, like you do on this Umar Abdulmutallab. |
Outside of the courthouse, rallying Michigan Muslims want the world to know that they stand for peace and they are against terror.
Abdulmutallab’s six-count federal indictment carries a maximum sentence of life in prison, but indictment doesn’t mean conviction. And some think that terror suspects have no place in civilian court at all.
I’m joined by CNN Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin. And from D.C., terrorism analyst and CIA veteran, Larry Johnson.
Let me ask you, Larry. Would you rather see this guy tried in a military tribunal versus a civilian court?
LARRY JOHNSON, TERRORISM ANALYST: It doesn’t matter, as long as he is tried. I think the problem we’ve had with what the Bush administration, the previous administration, didn’t do is they just took these people in and did not give them any kind of judicial process. They are going to hold them indefinitely.
So that’s what the Soviets used to do when they would take people, declare them enemies of the state, and say we’re going to hold you until we decide to release you. The guys in legal custody — our legal system has been very robust, and this was the policy of Ronald Reagan, this was the policy of George Herbert Walker Bush, and it was a policy continued by Bill Clinton. So I am very comfortable with prosecuting terrorists, because it worked under Reagan, it worked under Bush, Sr., and it worked under Clinton.
PHILLIPS: Did it work, prosecuting terrorists under those presidents?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: It did. And it worked under — just a few years ago with almost the identical crime.
What I find is so peculiar about this controversy is that the shoe bomber, Richard Reid, it is almost exactly the same crime. Fortunately, both attempts failed.
That was prosecuted in criminal court, Richard Reid plead guilty. He’s serving life without parole. There was no controversy about that at this point.
Why it’s suddenly controversial now I think owes more to the partisanship with which we live rather than the real merits of the case. This is a criminal case, that’s where it belongs.
JOHNSON: Right.
PHILLIPS: Larry, are they going to be able to get any good intel out of this guy?
JOHNSON: Absolutely. Look, the FBI — I’ve got a lot — even though I’m former CIA, former State Department, lots of friends in the FBI. The FBI has very good investigators. They’re actually the ones who know how to interrogate subjects.
The CIA has no experience with that. FBI has lots of experience, and they are able to get information out through a variety of techniques, all of it legal, none of it involving torture. So, again, this 24-hour methodology that has been built up over this nonsense that the only way to get information is to torture people, that’s written by Hollywood screenwriters who don’t know what they’re talking about and by people in government who have these bizarre fantasies of a brutalizing people. The fact of the matter is, the FBI, law enforcement is very effective at getting information from suspects, particularly when you’ve got the goods on them, like you do on this Umar Abdulmutallab.
TOOBIN: And if I could just add one point…
PHILLIPS: Sure.
TOOBIN: … it’s not even just interrogation that is the only way you get information. Let’s say, presumably, he was traveling with a cell phone, he was traveling with documents. You take that cell phone, you find out how it was used, whom he called, whose calls he got. You follow that chain where it leads. You follow the document where is they go.
That’s old-fashioned, good detective work, whether it’s done by CIA agents or FBI agents. That’s the kind of thing that could be very promising, it doesn’t violate anyone’s rights, it’s not involving torture, and it’s very effective.
PHILLIPS: Well, Larry, from your experience, do guys like this sing like a canary?
JOHNSON: Sometimes they do. You know, when you go back and you look at the people that are in prison now who were terrorists, active terrorists, Fawaz Younis, who was taken into custody back in 1987, “The Blind Sheikh,” Rahman, who was implicated trying to blow up the Lincoln and Holland tunnels, you’ve got Kiki Moskira (ph) who blow up the Avianca plane, you’ve got Hakim Murad and Ramzi Yousef who were implicated in the Bojinka plot.
So, you’ve got a lot of terrorists who’ve been put on trial, who have giving up information either in the course of the trial, or prior to that. So this nonsense that somehow, using our criminal laws and acting like a civilized nation makes us, you know, wimps is, I think, doing a disservice to this country, because if it was good enough for Ronald Reagan and if it was good enough for George Herbert walker Bush, I think it ought to be good enough for us now.
PHILLIPS: OK. I’m just getting word that the court hearing is over.
And Jeffrey, a not guilty plea from Abdulmutallab.
TOOBIN: Well, I think it’s worth noting that it’s six minutes after 2:00. This was probably about a four-minute hearing. This is a very routine matter, an arraignment. A not guilty plea is entered just to let the proceedings get started.
PHILLIPS: So he didn’t necessarily insist on a not guilty plea?
TOOBIN: Oh, no, no, no.
PHILLIPS: Because this is somebody who wants to be seen as a holy warrior, and I did this. And he already told investigators that he was training in al Qaeda and he wanted to blow up that plane.
TOOBIN: I anticipate that this case will end in a guilty plea, given the evidence, but certainly it wouldn’t end this soon with a guilty plea. The lawyer has to spend some time with him. The lawyer has to investigate. She has to learn the circumstances and see if she can make a deal.
All of that is going to take time. So the fact that a not guilty plea was entered is not really significant in determining whether that’s how the case will really end, with a trial or a guilty plea.
PHILLIPS: What’s it like to been an attorney? I know you have talked with so many about this, to have to represent a terrorist.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, they really believe in the system. And they really believe that the only way that the system is fair for everybody is that if even bad people force the government to prove their cases, because that will mean that when the cases are closer, everyone will have the rights to use the rights guaranteed to criminal defendants.
Look, it’s not the work that I chose to do when I was a practicing lawyer, but I respect the people who do it. And I’m glad they’re not me.
PHILLIPS: Well, I know what Larry Johnson would want to do if he was in that courtroom with that guy. That’s for sure. And it would not be very diplomatic.
Larry Johnson, Jeffrey Toobin, guys, thank you so much.
Well, did you want to make one more comment, Larry?
JOHNSON: Well, I would say I would read him his rights, but if he ends up spending a long time in jail, or a death sentence, I would lose no sleep over it and say he finally may have got his wish.
PHILLIPS: Got it.
TOOBIN: He’s just not eligible for a death sentence, because, fortunately, no one died. Life in prison, count on it.
PHILLIPS: Got it. All right. Well, we’ll, of course, be tracking it, and we’ll have you both on many times more from now.
Jeffrey Toobin, Larry Johnson.
Thanks, guys.
Well, this isn’t the only terrorism case on the radar. Remember this guy, Najibullah Zazi, arrested late last year? Now the case is growing and more guys are in custody. We’ll have details this hour.
Special thanks to C.S. for his amazing work in getting these videos up for our use.
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