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Wassup With The Supremes?

Okay, just what the hell is in the water in Washington, D.C.? Can someone, ANYONE, please tell me how a Corporation = Human? Seriously, because I’m not seeing it. I cannot imagine what kind of machinations through which the Supreme Court went to come to the conclusion that it is unconstitutional to limit corporations from buying off elections. I’m sorry, say, WHAAAA? That is just crazy talk. Corporations equal people. Uh, yeah, No.

Greg Palast had an excellent post on this startling decision (first printed at Alternet.org), “Manchurian Candidates: Supreme Court Allows China And Others Unlimited Spending In The U.S.” That pretty much says it all, doesn’t it? Palast went on to say:

In today’s Supreme Court decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, the Court ruled that corporations should be treated the same as “natural persons”, i.e. humans. Well, in that case, expect the Supreme Court to next rule that Wal-Mart can run for President.

The ruling, which junks federal laws that now bar corporations from stuffing campaign coffers, will not, as progressives fear, cause an avalanche of corporate cash into politics. Sadly, that’s already happened: we have been snowed under by tens of millions of dollars given through corporate PACs and “bundling” of individual contributions from corporate pay-rollers.

The Court’s decision is far, far more dangerous to U.S. democracy. Think: Manchurian candidates.

I’m losing sleep over the millions — or billions — of dollars that could flood into our elections from ARAMCO, the Saudi Oil corporation’s U.S. unit; or from the maker of “New Order” fashions, the Chinese People’s Liberation Army. Or from Bin Laden Construction corporation. Or Bin Laden Destruction Corporation.

Right now, corporations can give loads of loot through PACs. While this money stinks (Barack Obama took none of it), anyone can go through a PAC’s federal disclosure filing and see the name of every individual who put money into it. And every contributor must be a citizen of the USA.

But under today’s Supreme Court ruling that corporations can support candidates without limit, there is nothing that stops, say, a Delaware-incorporated handmaiden of the Burmese junta from picking a Congressman or two with a cache of loot masked by a corporate alias…(click here for the rest of the post).

Ah, yes, President Wal-Mart – now THERE’S some democracy for ya…

Palast continues:

Candidate Barack Obama was one sharp speaker, but he would not have been heard, and certainly would not have won, without the astonishing outpouring of donations from two million Americans. It was an unprecedented uprising-by-PayPal, overwhelming the old fat-cat sources of funding.

Well, kiss that small-donor revolution goodbye. Under the Court’s new rules, progressive list serves won’t stand a chance against the resources of new “citizens” such as CNOOC, the China National Offshore Oil Corporation. Maybe UBS (United Bank of Switzerland), which faces U.S. criminal prosecution and a billion-dollar fine for fraud, might be tempted to invest in a few Senate seats. As would XYZ Corporation, whose owners remain hidden by “street names.”

Let’s just hold the phone for a minute here, Mr. Palast. While Obama no doubt did get a lot of smaller contributions through PayPal, there were also a LOT of questions about from where some of those contributions came since, according to the Obama Campaign itself, their tracking left a bit to be desired. But thanks for playing. Still, there is a point to be made:

George Bush’s former Solicitor General Ted Olson argued the case to the court on behalf of Citizens United, a corporate front that funded an attack on Hillary Clinton during the 2008 primary. Olson’s wife died on September 11, 2001 on the hijacked airliner that hit the Pentagon. Maybe it was a bit crude of me, but I contacted Olson’s office to ask how much “Al Qaeda, Inc.” should be allowed to donate to support the election of his local congressman.

Olson has not responded.

Um, okay, I’ll say it – it wasn’t crude, it was CRUEL. I get his point, but really, that was uncalled for in my book. Still, the concept regarding foreign contributions is disturbing at best:

The danger of foreign loot loading into U.S. campaigns, not much noted in the media chat about the Citizens case, was the first concern raised by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who asked about opening the door to “mega-corporations” owned by foreign governments. Olson offered Ginsburg a fudge, that Congress might be able to prohibit foreign corporations from making donations, though Olson made clear he thought any such restriction a bad idea.

Tara Malloy, attorney with the Campaign Legal Center of Washington D.C. says corporations will now have more rights than people. Only United States citizens may donate or influence campaigns, but a foreign government can, veiled behind a corporate treasury, dump money into ballot battles.

Malloy also noted that under the law today, human-people, as opposed to corporate-people, may only give $2,300 to a presidential campaign. But hedge fund billionaires, for example, who typically operate through dozens of corporate vessels, may now give unlimited sums through each of these “unnatural” creatures.

And once the Taliban incorporates in Delaware, they could ante up for the best democracy money can buy.

A bit hyperbolic, but, well, yeah – they can, as can any other corporation-person, or country-person:

In July, the Chinese government, in preparation for President Obama’s visit, held diplomatic discussions in which they skirted issues of human rights and Tibet. Notably, the Chinese, who hold a $2 trillion mortgage on our Treasury, raised concerns about the cost of Obama’s health care reform bill. Would our nervous Chinese landlords have an interest in buying the White House for an opponent of government spending such as Gov. Palin? Ya betcha!

Given how things are going right this minute, a lot of people would probably be happier with a President Palin. Ask some Tea Partiers. But his point, and it is a good one, is this:

The potential for foreign infiltration of what remains of our democracy is an adjunct of the fact that the source and control money from corporate treasuries (unlike registered PACs), is necessarily hidden. Who the heck are the real stockholders? Or as Butch asked Sundance, “Who are these guys?”

We’ll never know.

Hidden money funding, whether foreign or domestic, is the new venom that the Court has injected into the system by its expansive decision in Citizens United.

We’ve been there. The 1994 election brought Newt Gingrich to power in a GOP takeover of the Congress funded by a very strange source.

Congressional investigators found that in crucial swing races, Democrats had fallen victim to a flood of last-minute attack ads funded by a group called, “Coalition for Our Children’s Future.” The $25 million that paid for those ads came, not from concerned parents, but from a corporation called “Triad Inc.”

Evidence suggests Triad Inc. was the front for the ultra-right-wing billionaire Koch Brothers and their private petroleum company, Koch Industries. Had the corporate connection been proven, the Kochs and their corporation could have faced indictment under federal election law. As of today, such money-poisoned politicking has become legit.

So it’s not just un-Americans we need to fear but the Polluter-Americans, Pharma-mericans, Bank-Americans and Hedge-Americans that could manipulate campaigns while hidden behind corporate veils. And if so, our future elections, while nominally a contest between Republicans and Democrats, may in fact come down to a three-way battle between China, Saudi Arabia and Goldman Sachs.

And again, to be fair, it isn’t just Republicans who are going to benefit from this new “Corporations are People, TOO!” ruling by the Supremes. Democrats will benefit, too:

Campaign Finance: The Supreme Court has ruled that corporations have a constitutional right to free speech. But Democratic leaders refuse to accept the decision, and their predictable reaction is to undermine it.

Rather than praising Thursday’s 5-4 decision to reverse the 1990 court ruling that banned corporations and unions from contributing directly to political campaigns as an advancement of liberty, President Obama condemned it.

“The Supreme Court,” he said, “has given a green light to a new stampede of special interest money in our politics. It is a major victory for Big Oil, Wall Street banks, health insurance companies and the other powerful interests that marshal their power every day in Washington to drown out the voices of everyday Americans . ..

“That’s why I am instructing my administration to get to work immediately with Congress on this issue. We are going to talk with bipartisan congressional leaders to develop a forceful response to this decision.”

Go get ‘em, Obama! Yeah, show some muscle on this!!! Oh, but wait – is this just more talk? It appears so:

The president is betting the public will accept his rhetoric without checking his facts, and the facts in this case show that lawyers and law firms, not “Big Oil” or “Wall Street,” are the biggest political contributors. According to opensecrets.org., 83% of their donations are going to Democrats in the current election cycle,

This is not unusual. In the 2008 cycle, Democrats took in 78% of lawyer and law-firm political dollars. In 2006, the ratio was 62% Democrats to 36% Republicans. Two years earlier, it was 80% to 20% in favor of the Democrats.

Maybe the president just doesn’t consider lawyers and law firms to be special interests. OK, so how about the securities and investment industry, a sector Democrats have demonized and unfavorably link to Republicans? Is this group a special interest?

The president can define special interests any way he wants. But he can’t redefine the fact that 73% of the political donations from the securities and investment industry — the “Wall Street” he apparently holds in such low regard — are going to Democrats in the 2010 cycle. In 2008, 64% went to Democrats, in 2004 it was 61% and in 2002 56%. In the 2006 cycle, the parties evenly split donations from the sector, each taking in 47%.

Oh, well, um – yes it would seem this is indeed more “words, just words,” from the man behind the curtain. What a big surprise – not at all. But there’s more:

As telling as that is, our fact-checking exercise revealed another valuable nugget. Of the 50 industries and sectors categorized as contributors by opensecrets.org, Democrats are the top recipients during this cycle in all but two (emphasis mine). Oil and gas, one of those named a “powerful interest,” is ranked as the 14th largest political contributor, and the auto industry, which ranks 46th.

In short, the stampede of special interest money began long before the court’s ruling, and Democrats are the biggest beneficiaries
(emphasis mine).

Oops. Wait, look over THERE! Or, there! Or anywhere but here!! Um, do you smell something burning? Oh, yes – their pants are on fire:

The president knows this, and so does Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y. Yet Schumer calls the court’s ruling “poisonous” and, according to The Hill newspaper, promises to hold hearings “to explore ways to limit corporate spending on elections.”

Maryland Rep. Chris Van Hollen, chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, also knows that his party is swimming in special-interest money. But he vows hearings as well.

If Democrats are acting as if they fear what the ruling will mean, it’s because they probably do. They feel their funding advantage, which already includes so much indirect union money that the court’s overturning of the ban on direct union contributions won’t help them, is now at risk.

But their complaint about a stampede of special interest dollars is hard to take seriously, and not only because of how much special interest money they’re already getting. While supporters of campaign finance laws say money is the corrupting element, they ignore the second part of the equation and the more corrosive factor: lawmakers’ votes.

Their implication is that big money buys votes in Congress, and they might be right. But trying to cut the flow of political money won’t stop the practice; it will only drive it underground. The way to stop the corruption is to prosecute lawmakers who sell their vote.

Though tainted by undue persecution, political dollars are a necessary part of our system. They illuminate the issues for everyday Americans and give challengers a chance (to) drive out entrenched incumbents. No one, not even a group of individuals, should be barred from taking part in this exercise of freedom.

Still don’t think I can concur that a group of individuals is the same as a corporation. But other than that, this piece does highlight that it isn’t just Republicans who are going to benefit from this unprecedented decision by the Supreme Court, but ALL politicians will benefit.

But will WE?

  • creeper

    How sad that the simple solution to this problem–public funding of campaigns–will never be accepted by the bought-and-paid-for politicians in Washington.

    Obama’s blast at this ruling was just so much hot air.  The party in power always benefits most from corporate campaign contributions.  So ultimately it is up to the voters to change that.

    And I expect they will come November.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Public financing is one option. The other is no spending at all. Politicians should perform their function(s) and then submit that work as a CV and let the voters decide on objective evidence and not on the off-gassing by those with a hidden agenda. Moreover, elections are an enormous waste of time, energy, and money and keep our representative from doing what they are hired and paid to do–serve the public.

    The entire system is corrupt from stem to stern.

  • creeper

    Ferd, I never thought about no funding at all.  It’s an interesting concept.  Make pols and their supporters get out there and do the work.

    But there are legitimate expenses associated with even that sort of campaigning…postage, printing, travel within a district.  If you remove all outside funding politics then becomes even more of a rich man’s game than it is now.

    That’s why I’d prefer a set (and minimum) amount, with no allowance for personal contributions.  That would level the playing field as much as possible. 

    Not that I expect these crooks to ever even consider anything like that…

    This is another one of those days when I hate my government.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Creeper:

    Your concerns are valid concerning a rich man’s game and I don’t have an answer. I can say that what we have now is also a rich man’s game, with our “elected” representatives being nothing more than high-priced prostitutes.

    I, too, often find myself hating the government with its lip service to the electorate and kneepads for their corporate pimps.

  • SHV

    Okay, just what the hell is in the water in Washington, D.C.? Can someone, ANYONE, please tell me how a Corporation = Human?
    *********
    This is nothing new.  In 1886, in the SCOTUS case “Santa Clara county v. Southern Pacif Railroad Co,” The Chief Justice said that “corporations enjoyed the same rights under the Fourteenth Amnedment as did natural persons.”

    There are other SCOTUS cases that talk about the personhood of corps.

  • Ferd Berfle

    SHV:

    When a group has an agenda that can’t be realized via persuasion or argument, their last resort is to redefine the terms to fit the end desired. That is exactly what has happened here. Up is down; right is left; good is bad; stupid is smart; an…

    a collection of individuals is an individual. nevermind that the composition/division and equivocation fallacies are hard at work here.

    We are doomed.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Who would have thought that the SC is a collection of Hindus? Apparently the atman (individual) and brahman (corporations/unions) are one and the same.

  • lark

    Well, I have always understood a corporation to be “an individual.” It is not difficult for me to understand that. It is a legal term and the object is to shift liability from the stockholders to an imaginary entity that has powers to act legally and engage in contracts. So without knowing much of anything about the issue, I agree with SCOTUS that freedom of speech is something a corporation should be entitled to.

  • FLDemFem

    Well, there could be an “up side” to all of this corporations as people stuff. It means that, for instance, if Larry were to incorporate NoQuarter then that corporation could run campaign ads. So could any group of people incorporated for any reason at all. Perhaps the American people should take the SCOTUS at their word and incorporate themselves to run their own campaign ads reflecting their point of view. Now if only we could only get a ruling that says that campaign ads must be treated like Public Service Announcements and run for free, or at token cost, on all the TV channels. That would certainly give rise to Vox Populi as a dominant influence in the political arena.

  • SHV

    Exactly… the Corps. change but the “politics” don’t. In the 19th century it was the railroads that were driving the legal equation.

  • Sassy

    Thanks Amy!
    I like facts to be inserted into the hysteria.
    Now, remind me again who was going to accept public financing in 2008, until he didn’t accept public financing!

  • lark

    You point is kind of mute because corporations have websites and can technically purchase many websites to place their messages.

  • Katmoon

    I like to believe that corporations were held to an “individual” status for the sake of prosecution; when they have or had broken
     a law. It doesn’t seem correct that a corporation can be recognized as a real individual and an imaginary person at the same time.IMHO

  • ginaswo

    shoot my postr got deleted! my bad

    I think it is a great ruling that may save us form Teh One and his Soros, ACORN SEIU masters

    let pharma and insurers loose

    evryone KNOWS GE SEIU ACORN SOROS bought themselves an Obama

    lets let all the corps into the game and see how it plays out

    DOODAD PRO anyone?
    ACORN uses tax dolalrs to steal votes for Gawds sake

    AMerican MNCs need to relaize American workers, shoppers are their FRIENDS

    they should help elect whomever will create JOBS, or mroe correctly whomever will allow private business to create JOBS

    that aint Obummer

  • mountainaires
  • Ferd Berfle

    “Well, I have always understood a corporation to be “an individual.”"
     
    Then Enron should have been tried and convicted of fraud and all stockholders and employees jailed. If a corporation = individual, then the individuals = the corporation. The composition/division fallacy cuts both ways.

    Truly, this is all doublespeak and gobbledegook designed to muddy the waters, divert attention, and promote corporate interests over those of “We, the People”.

  • AC

    ginaswo,

    WHAT? 

  • Patience

    I just posted this on Pat Racimora’s SCOTUS thread:

    I voted for McCain.  But I thought it was beyond ironic that he ended up facing an opponent who went on to make history by spending the most of ANY presidential candidate before.  
     
    This fact alone was a simple illustration of the ineffectiveness of McCain-Feingold.  It’s undoubtedly poor legislation.  
     
    I’ve stated here a few times that I support public campaign financing with no loopholes whatsoever, and no other money allowed.  I don’t think it will ever happen, for various reasons.  Even if it did, the FEC is obviously so inept an enforcer that campaign finance laws would likely still be flouted.  
     
    After the court’s ruling the other day, I’ve been giving the subject more thought.  To be honest, I really wouldn’t like it if, in the last election, Obama — who I didn’t support — got as much public funding as McCain, who I did.  Public financing would prevent me from only supporting candidates I favor.    
     
    Bottom line — I’m not so certain of the best solution anymore.


    Why am I not surprised that the POTUS is shocked, shocked I tell you, about the SCOTUS ruling? 

  • Ferd Berfle

    “Well, I have always understood a corporation to be “an individual.”"
     
    Then Enron shoulod have been tried and convicted of fraud and all stockholders and employees jailed. If a corporation = individual, then the individuals = the corporation. The composition/division fallacy cuts both ways. This is all doublespeak designed to muddy the waters, divert attention, and promote corporate interests over those of “We, the People“.

  • Patience

    I just posted this on Pat Racimora’s SCOTUS thread:  
     
    I voted for McCain.  But I thought it was beyond ironic that he ended up facing an opponent who went on to make history by spending the most of ANY presidential candidate before.    
       
    This fact alone was a simple illustration of the ineffectiveness of McCain-Feingold.  It’s undoubtedly poor legislation.    
       
    I’ve stated here a few times that I support public campaign financing with no loopholes whatsoever, and no other money allowed.  I don’t think it will ever happen, for various reasons.  Even if it did, the FEC is obviously so inept an enforcer that campaign finance laws would likely still be flouted.    
       
    After the court’s ruling the other day, I’ve been giving the subject more thought.  To be honest, I really wouldn’t like it if, in the last election, Obama — who I didn’t support — got as much public funding as McCain, who I did.  Public financing would prevent me from only supporting candidates I favor.      
       
    Bottom line — I’m not so certain of the best solution anymore.
      
     
    And BTW, why am I not surprised that the POTUS is shocked, shocked I tell you, about the SCOTUS ruling? 

  • Ferd Berfle

    What I find interesting is that many of the same people who have called for a return to original intent are also those who are in agreement that corporations are individuals, a belief that flies in the face of original intent, particularly given Jefferson’s view of corporations.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Good points, Ferd and creeper.  I hadn’t thought abt no funding, either.

    I know in other countries, the gov’t puts up the money, and they have a shorter campaign period.  Seems to work, for the people that is, maybe not for the special interests who want to control the politicians.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Yes, SHV, the railroads were the driving forces back then – different day, different type of corporation.  And just because the Supremes succumbed to this same type of faulty logic then doesn’t mean they STILL have to promote it.  Know what I mean?

    I just cannot hep but be really cynical abt how they reached that decision…

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    LOL, FLDemFem – I like how you think!

    Now – how can we go abt getting some of that campaign cash out there?

    Bank of America, call me!

  • Patience

    Well, I’ll leave the debate about semantics and original intent to more qualified posters.  Legalese was never my strong suit.

    Simply put, the SCOTUS ruling IMO removes some of the middle men of campaign finance.

  • Katmoon

    Also these are rights granted to “citizens”, corporate or not. So as we look at his issue, we need to also consider the influence from outside of our country hitting us at a corporate level, from non-citizens.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    My pleasure, Sassy!

    Yes, it is amazing how quickly people are uncovering Obama’s windbag moments now.  Thank heavens.  It only took THREE years for them to get there, but whatever…

    Oh, and yes, it would be Obama who was for it before he was ag’in it…

  • creeper

    But Patience, if I recall correctly, in the last election Obama got MORE money than McCain.

    The point is to take ALL private contributions out of it so that no one can buy a ticket to Washington.  I have no problem with some of my money going to a shyster like Obama if, in the end, it keeps him from having a monetary advantage.

  • Patience

    Or I should’ve said the ruling removes the need for middle men.

  • lark

    Well, my friend Ferd, please, the beauty of the concept/idea/reality of a corporation is precisely that kind of protection to the stockholders. Doublespeak is something that characterizes our ‘information age.’

    I think it would be worthed for us to watch the Fox News special “Obama – In his own words” tonight and tomorrow night. It may show exactly THE TRAUMA  we are going through with DOUBLESPEAK.

  • Ferd Berfle

    “And BTW, why am I not surprised that the POTUS is shocked, shocked I tell you, about the SCOTUS ruling?”
     
    LMAO. Yep, That One has brought out the ”populist” from his multiple-personality bag of tricks.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Mountainaires, THANK YOU for the links.  Very, very telling, aren’t they?  Opensecrets.org is great – a very handy resource to show just how Obama got this election…

    You have GOT to be kidding me abt the Pre-existing thing!  THat really IS the best thing abt the whole thing.

    WHAT is wrong with these people???

  • devilish

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    Where exactly does the First Amendment say, “..or abridging the freedom of speech..” of individuals?  It doesn’t it just says “..freedom of speech…”.  Quit assigning this right to individuals only.

  • lark

    The reason the Health Care bill and the Health Care issue is not being resolved for us is precisely because we are now TRAUMATIZED by DOUBLESPEAK.

    The first thing the health care bill must cure is ‘doublespeak.’

  • ces

    So now the cycle of government is complete… when one of my repug friends of family member complains about “big” government, I can point out that government is bought and paid for (legally, now) by big business. They already write the legislation for those in office now, so now they can pick their own “representative”.

    We no longer have government by representation. We have government through ownership.

    We the Corporations….ain’t it grand.

    /rant

  • donjo

    But that was NOT in the official opinion.  Just an off-hand remark.

  • lark

    WHAT is wrong with these people???

    What’s wrong with us. McCain tried his best and not very well I may say to explain his plan with utmost sincerity of heart and we did not want to listen to him.

    Hopefully the health care bill as it is is dead and maybe McCain can lead a new effort to bring to us a health care reform that works.

  • Patience

    creeper, I think in practice, without effective enforcement (which may be an impractical goal), there will always be candidates who seek a monetary advantage.  If I believed effective enforcement were truly possible, I guess it wouldn’t bother me so much that candidates I didn’t support got public funding.  Maybe…

  • Anonymous

    devilish,

    You’re an idiot!  And the 5 of the Supremes join you in the idiocy!

    Where in the Constitution, not case law but The Constitution does it mention Corporations?

  • arabella trefoil

    The Supreme Court has a long history of making wacky decisions. We tend to remember the ones we like, and forget the ones that caused a lot of trouble. The process of rectifying a “bad” ruling is lengthy and cumbersome.

    On the upside, the ruling is the equivalent to legalizing what the cadidates already do. Maybe public discussion of this ruling will help people understand how messed up the current system is.

    It won’t help Obama, that’s for sure. His corporate backer will be exposed and talked about.

    (I was gonna say that this ruling was the equivalent of legalizing prostitution, but it’s not really the same thing.)

  • AC

    devilish,

    You’re an idiot! And the 5 of the Supremes join you in the idiocy!

    Where in the Constitution, not case law but The Constitution does it mention Corporations?

  • lark

    He can be all the surprised he wants – to rebell against SCOTUS is in my opinion an impeachable offense. You and me can rebell against SCOTUS but the President in my opinion is called by oath to obey the law.

  • Katmoon

    The right to assemble allows people to gather for peaceful and lawful purposes. Implicit within this right is the right to association and belief. The Supreme Court has expressly recognized that a right to freedom of association and belief is implicit in the First, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments. This implicit right is limited to the right to associate for First Amendment purposes. It does not include a right of social association.
    source:http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/First_amendment

    Corporations are associations driven by a variety of areas, however they are by choice; one chooses to be part of a corporation, which can be and is often understood to be a social association.

  • Ferd Berfle

    An individual has no such protection as an individual. The limited goes away as part of the new definition. The corporation = the individual and the individuals = the corporation. You’ve made the whole nothing more than the sum of the parts and vice versa. I can’t wait for an intrepid attorney to come to court with that argument.

  • Katmoon

    Just waiting for a new definition of “Corporation”. I suppose it will now include and encompass protection of non-citizens who are part of a corporation.

  • lark

    That is why it is repulsive to me to have heard Obama say that he will direct his Administration to begin work on establishing barriers to what the court said was a right.

  • arabella trefoil

    No, never doomed. We just have to work harder.

  • donjo

    “I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As the result of the War, corporations have been enthroned. … An era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people… until wealth is aggregated in a few hands… and the Republic is destroyed.”
    – Abraham Lincoln, 1864

  • Ferd Berfle

    Ahem, we do have  freedom of speech as individuals. Corporations are collecetives, which may or may not represent the views of all belonging. For example, I am not in lock-step with my company nor should I have to be. It is MY right and not theirs.

    You place the collective on equal footing with the individual. That isn’t very American, now is it?

  • EWard

    Obama didn’t take PAC money?  What a lie!!!!!!!!!  BO’s campaign cannot explain away over $250 million dollars in campaign donations.  Headclunker, a blogger at Puma Pac, has been tracking Obama’s funny campaign money during the 2008 race.  Obama raised close to 1 billion dollars and none of it came from foreign companies?????? 

    Obama took tons of Pac money through corporations.  Remember the famous Obama phrase that Americans cling to their guns and religion?  That was uttered at a SF fundraiser for Barky composed of billionaires and millionaires.  Why aren’t the unions restricted in giving?  Acorn has close to 100 organizations that funnel money to the Democrats. 

  • FLDemFem

    So can you. And the word is “moot” not “mute”.

  • arabella trefoil

    Anything Obama says is total shiite, and thank goodness Americans see that. If he says he will “work on” something, or “fight for us” we know it’s a lot of hot air.

    What did Jim Crow laws do? Weren’t they put in place to establish barriers to the law?

    Oh, President Prof. Obama, think before you speak.

    Why not talk about an ammendment to the Constitution? But I’m not a lawyer, or a teacher of constitutional law.

  • Ferd Berfle

    You are spot on ces. This ruling is also going to keep attorneys employed for generations as the endless wrangling over what consitutes an individual becomes the same sort of argument as what constitutes the verb “is”.

    How many corporations can dance on the head of a pin?

  • Ferd Berfle

    You’re right. Now the polilticians can be bought wholesale.

  • WestVirginia304

    I agree.  Is Palast a nut case or what?  ”Right now, corporations can give loads of loot through PACs. While this money stinks (Barack Obama took none of it),”
     
    That must have been one big rock Palast was under in 2008.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Since the corporation is now an individual, can I:

    1) Sue them as an individual entity rather than as a corporation?
    2) Swear out a complaint against it/them and have it/them arrested?
    3) Call on it/them as witnesses?

    The list of pertinent questions is endless. Workfare for attorneys, I’m afraid.

  • Peggy Sue

    Yes, Ferd!  And for anyone who argued that Sotomayor would be a crazy activist judge, this ones for you–straight from the Roberts’ Court, the Founding Father Constitutionalists.

    My personal opinion?  This decision is an obscene joke.  Might as well put up the Fire Sale sign and be done with it.

    It’s bad enough that corporations were assigned “personhood” under the 14th Amendment, specifically using the clause that gave former slaves full rights under the Law, but now we have First Amendment rights assigned to an artificial entity.

    Welcome to the world of Citizen Goldman Sachs and Citizen Exxon Oil.

    Welcome to our new, brave reality. 

  • lark

    Your arguments Ferd seem to me very stressed, seemingly to me from an initial bias. A corporation is only an legal entity that allows the government to communicate with its members. That’s all it is. It is a government creation for the purpose of taxation. The government can actually tax the corporation and that is all the government wants. As a tax ‘individual’ it has ‘free speech.’ That is all.

    If you want to kill that and make your points a reality then lift up taxing corporation – establish a flat tax or something else that taxes only citizens. That way your problem is solved.

  • FLDemFem

    RRA, when handed a bushel of lemons, there is only one thing to do. Make lemon merigue pie and lob the lemons back at them. Hehehe.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    If you look at the OpenSecrets links above, you will see tha Obama received $19.5 million from the health sector, and McCain less than $7.5 million.  Just as an example to say McCain was way overspent by these special interest groups to get Obama in.  We were screaming at the top of our lungs abt Obama.

    So, yeah – what is wrong with these people??

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    ROTFLMAO – love it, Ferd!  Yes, he is going on and on and on abt the horrible ruling by the Supremes, all the while having benefitted quite nicely this last round from the very thing he is crying abt now.  What a joke.

  • TeakWoodKite

    If money is free speech, then what of the phrase,
    “Put your money where your mouth is”.

    ???

    Hypicritosis is what I expect from Bo Industries Inc. but When Al Sore got “caught with” Chinese money, well?
    Human beings? what are they?

  • Ferd Berfle

    ” This decision is an obscene joke.  Might as well put up the Fire Sale sign and be done with it. ”

    You are 100% correct Peggy Sue. Cash on the barrelhead is the new mantra and the result is the worst politicians money can buy.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Thank you, donjo…

  • FLDemFem

    He is not, however, constrained by law to agree with the law. He still has freedom of speech, just like the rest of us. Perhaps you should actually read the Constitution before you start interpreting it for us.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    I could not BELIEVE that lie when I saw it.  Thank you so much for pointing that out, EWard.  Isn’t it just laughable?  It’s like some of these Obamaphants can bring themselves to go only just so far in their exposes on him, but then stop themselves from going all the way.

    Yes, I remember well that the Obama campaign was the only one that did not have a system in place to track contributions at the time they came in like the McCain and Clinton ones did, claiming they’d lookt hem up later.  Uu huh.  And people could use throwaway credit cards with them, too, which led to the suspicion that people from other countries were donating to him, too. 

    Funny – I don’t remember ever hearing that any of those contributrions had been reviewed…

  • Ferd Berfle

    Sorry that you missed the point, Lark. You will get it, though, when your rights become secondary to those of the group and its groupthink. You think things are bad now with obamabots just wait until you get the new and improved corporatethink.

  • Docelder

    Back when the google 10 year old cache was up, I remember reading something from law lecturer Obama that addressed the 14th amendment. I think it dealt with rights afforded slaves that are above and beyond the normal rights we have as just plain citizens. That was troubling, but if these extend to coroprations as well we might be screwed if this administration and this SCOTUS means to really go there.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Perhaps, arabella. Or maybe we will just be absorbed–resistance is futile.

  • lark

    I cannot be missing the point Ferd if I am reading you. Is not possible. I agree with your rage. I am for taxing only ‘income’ from ‘citizens’ only. Taxing only income and only from citizens.

  • Ferd Berfle

    ” abt the horrible ruling by the Supremes, all the while having benefitted quite nicely this last round from the very thing he is crying abt now. What a joke.”

    Yeah, That One and his crocodile tears, laughing all the way to the bank. Why is it that the electorate ALWAYS supports things that are against their better interests? Corporation = individual? Yeah, right. So now I am also subservient to not only the government but also to corporations. What happened to the primacy of the individual? Maybe it’s time to return to the ways of the Wild West.

  • EWard

    Rev Amy

    Obama is the true Manchurian candidate.  It’s amateur hour at the WH.  Obama looks to Jarrett and Axelrod for advice regarding top policy matters.  Look at his backroom deal with the union bosses to exempt them from the HC tax.  Barky is all about special interests and paying back his friends.  The Dems are upset because this levels the playing field. 

    The billion dollars that Obama raked in during 2008 was never tracked by the lap dog media.  According to Palast, it was all mom and pop American types donating to poor little old Barky….BS

  • lark

    Perhaps I have freedom of speech in interpreting the Constitution from just reading the title. Constitution seems clear enough to me.

  • Ferd Berfle

    “That was troubling, but if these extend to coroprations as well we might be screwed if this administration and this SCOTUS means to really go there.”

    Yeah, Doc, I’m afraid that is exactly where they’re going. It is akin to the yer-either-fer-us-or-agin’-us sort of brainwashing. Groupthink is even scarier than That One, himself.

  • lark

    I respectfully disagree with you. I respect each voter and believe that each voter has a responsibility over their vote. After that we have to own to what we did and pay the consequences. By paying the consequences we will learn from experience. If this is the last generation of Americans, then so be it.

  • AC

    Lark,
    So do non-citizens, let’s say legal immigrants who are working while waiting for the required time to pass before applying for citizenship, and those here strictly on a work visa should not be subject to taxes while all along  benefiting from all the infrastructure and other resources paid for by taxpayers SHOULD NOT PAY TAXES?

    I really have a difficult time following the logic of your statements.  Please explain.

  • Ferd Berfle

    “Constitution seems clear enough to me. ”

    And to me:

    “We, the People”. That assumes primacy of the people, since it is the first phrase. Further, I would assume these words are the first for a reason. Moreover, I would assume that the word people was used in lieu of Americans, land-owners, Federalists, patriots, men, or states because the people are the source. I am not a collective but I am a person. My rights are not secondary to some group such as a corporation. Indeed, their rights are enitrely secondary to mine and to yours, individually. Screw the collective.

  • ces

    Exactly. As much as I have frivolous lawsuits, I sure hope to see the future Enron cases. This way, if the corpSes are individuals, then the executive staff are all liable for the actions of any employee. So when somebody screws up, purposely or not, can we sue and convict the entire workforce? 

    Can I sign up as a corporation and hire my cat as my legal team; get a bailout package; put a piece of artwork in my lawn and get a tax right off for public service, etc etc…

    big govt <=> big biz

  • Ferd Berfle

    Taxing? WTH? This is far more important than taxation. Moreover, American corporations benefit from the blood and sacrifice of real persons/individuals. If corporations want the protection of the law, they can pay their damn taxes and stop bitching or get the hell out. I’m sure some company more in tune with reality would take their place. I didn’t serve my country so some corporation could get fat and sassy and then ask me to sacrifice some more for them. Wow, you’re entirely off-base Lark. A corporation is a voluntary collection–not a mandatory one. Christ, no wonder Jefferson felt the way he did considering views like yours.

  • arabella trefoil

    Ferd, never give up.

    If they try to absorb me, they will be very sorry. It will be worse for them than eating bad clams.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Agreed, AC. Those who benefit should be required to put their shoulder to the wheel also. The redistribution of wealth upwards (to corporations) is just as bad as the downward redistribution. Everyone should pay at least something.

    Wow. maybe I should incorporate, and ask my neighbors to foot the bill.

  • Diana L. C.

    I have no answers for this situation.  All I know is that, though I spent my money in 2008 for candidates I really trusted (mostly Hillary), I will never contribute again to a political campaign.  The piddling amount of money i can contribute means nothing in the long run.  It will be better used to shore up what little financial resources I have for my own and my loved one’s good.  (Yes, even my pups and cats.)

    I would say that the only hope is to teach voters to consider the source of any campaign ad.  We all need to think carefully what the ad’s sponsors think they will gain if their candidate or issue is elected/passed and forget the actual words and images spoken in the ads.  We need to be better “readers” of the media.

    But then, what good is hoping for that?  Just when I think things can’t be more depressing, they get more depressing because I KNOW how the younguns and the unread masses voted to our detriment based on “misread” images and statements in the last election.  And the biggest problem of all is the national media corporations.  They have already hijacked our democracy while pretending to do their job.  Now they don’t have to pretend.

  • Ferd Berfle

    “Human beings? what are they?”

    Subcorporate cogs in the great machine, apparently.

    RIP
    The Individual
    1776-2010

  • creeper

    True dat, Patience.  Enforcement is a whole ‘nother thing.  We don’t enforce the laws we have now and yet they keep making more.

    Enforcement IS possible.  It just takes an agency that is actually willing to do the job.

  • creeper

    SCOTUS didn’t say your rights were secondary to corporations.  It said corporations’ rights were equal to an individual’s. 

    I’m still not sure what I think about this concept.  What I DO know is that the ruling opens a Pandora’s box and the only way to close it is to take all the private money out of campaigns.

  • AC

    What’s on your mind…

  • Ferd Berfle

    You’re right on target. What is further depressing is that now corporations and unions are equal footing with individuals, which means that if I am not in agreement with these sundry groups (e.g., SEIU, ACORN, the Chamber of Commerce, NBC, Fox, Halilburton), I will be forced to join some other group, which also may or may not be in agreement with me on each matter. Why should a free person be forced to associate with anyone simply to be heard? When did the group become more important than the individual? Where did we lose our way? Isn’t it enough just to be an American and to desire what is best for our country?

    I suppose not.

  • Ferd Berfle

    But in practical appllication, creeper, the result is that my rights will be subordinate to yet another collective and a “voluntary” collective at that. The old adage about fighting city hall will be replaced by the new adage about corporate HQ.

  • creeper

    Beyond making it legal for corporations to buy a politician, the effect of this ruling on foreign influence in our elections is the most frightening.  SCOTUS’ decision is right in line with the push from various groups of intelligentsia (Bilderberg, Carlton) toward globalization.

    RIP, United States of America.  Hail, One World.

  • Ferd Berfle

    “the Court ruled that corporations should be treated the same as “natural persons”, i.e. humans”
    ================================

    Messrs. Haliburton, you have been charged with fraud and misfeasance in connection with failure to abide by contractual agreements you made with the US Government in 2002 and 2003. How do you plead?

    Not guilty, your honor, as we are neither a person nor an individual as defined by the Webster’s, American Heritage, and Oxford dictionaries  but are a limited liability corporation as defined by the aforementioned.
    ================================

    LMAO at the rubes who have bought into the gobbledegook about corporations. You’ll learn, while the rest of us pay through the nose.

  • beachnan

    What exactly are they giving us, we the people, with this health insurance bill?
    1.  Force us to buy insurance
    2.  Penalize us if we don’t
    3.  Do not make the insurance companies cover preexisting condtions
    4.  Make us pay more than other countries for our meds

    We are supposed to like this bill?  On the basis of how many ways can I get screwed by the health industry.  What a sham.

  • Ferd Berfle

    I’m not giving up, Arabella–that’s why I keep trying to point out the logical and practical inconsistencies involved in this high-browed exercise in how stupid a ruling can they make with a straight face. The Supremes are idiots deluxe in this instance. I’m going to incorporate and give them the finger.

  • confused American

    Hey if I remember right about 1/2 of Obama’s contributions have no backup….Hey that kind of money does not come from a bunch of poor people.

  • Hank

    Sam’s Club lays off Dallas-Fort Worth workers as part of nationwide cuts 11:57 AM CST on Sunday, January 24, 2010 By RICHARD ABSHIRE / The Dallas Morning News
    rabshire@dallasnews.com

    Sam’s Club laid off an unknown number of employees in the Dallas-Fort Worth area at early-morning store meetings Sunday in what workers were told was part nationwide cuts by the chain.
    The move follows recent store closings around the country.
    Inquiries at local Sam’s Clubs on Sunday were referred to company headquarters in Bentonville, Ark. Calls to the corporate public relations office there were met with recorded messages promising to return calls during “regular business hours.”
    Raynetta Dennis, who worked at an Addison store, said there was no advance notice of the layoffs of workers who did product demos in stores and outside marketing people who called on business to solicit club memberships.
    “They laid off everybody on the demo teams and outside marketing,” Dennis said. “That’s 18 people in that store, and there are 28 local Sam’s Clubs in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. It’s supposed to be nationwide.”
    She said the workers were told Crossmark would eventually take over in-store demos and that laid-off workers could apply to Crossmark for jobs that will pay $7.25 an hour.
    After more than 10 years with Sam’s, Dennis said she was making $16 an hour until Sunday morning.

  • beachnan

    Yes, RRA.  Yet, they were so organized.  They had the best system, They had the best blah, blah, blah, and yet they somehow couldn’t keep track of all the money that was pouring in.  Disgusting.  I also caught that comment by Greg Palast, and wonder how the man can be so naive.

  • Ferd Berfle

    The Bilderberg and Carlysle groups are another truly scary bunch. I only know of them by reputation but then that is all they want us to know. 1984 was only wrong by a couple of decades and concerning the perpretrator. Other than that, it is spot on. Corporations are people; money is speech; Obama is hope and change.

  • jbjd

    R3A, I have only begun to read the actual SCOTUS decision on Citizens United but, since you (and FranSC) asked, I must say, I agree with its primary holding, which is this.  Limiting money donated directly to a candidate’s campaign can be said to further a compelling government interest, but similarly limiting money spent on expressive functions which promote or oppose candidates by name but which are not controlled by the candidate, cannot be said to further a compelling government interest that would justify restrictions on such expenditures, as long as the funding sources of these expressive functions are plainly identified.  http://www.scribd.com/doc/25537902/Citizens-Opinion

    Citizens who ‘buy into’ expressive functions from sources like CFP (Canada Free Press aka Douglas Hagmann and his Nazi-inspired NEIN (Northeast Intelligence Network); Western Center for Journalism (aka Joseph Farah and World Net Daily); or APFC (Annenberg Political FactCheck, which is wholly owned and funded by the Annenberg Foundation, BO’s ‘old’ boss at the CAC) without having identified the background of these sources, and examined their political or philosophical bent cannot rationalize such failure to vent on the SCOTUS.  Filing complaints of misconduct against members of the federal bench, with “JudicialWatch,” a couple of self-identified “conservative” guys who started the company; instead of any one of dozens of .gov sites (http://www.uscourts.gov/index.html); or with the FEC, which only monitors campaign funding, for the suspected Constitutional ineligibility of a candidate for POTUS cannot be blamed on too much corporate money in politics.  Flocking to a convention called Continental Congress 2009 because you are certain the POTUS is Constitutionally ineligible for the job, without identifying the man behind the mission is Bob Schulz, founder and Chair of We the People Foundation for Constitutional Education, Inc., a corporation historically dedicated to eliminating the federal income tax and federal reserve, cannot be blamed on his company or the SCOTUS.

    I cannot imagine any news exists which cannot be accessed outside of these traditional corporate channels of delivery.  Many of us posting here on NQ have managed to ferret out accurate information on a plethora of issues, sufficient to guide our decisions as to how to proceed.  We turn to blogs and bloggers because of a demonstrated track record of reliability, or turn away from these same sources for their lack of candor.  Seems we have all the information we need.

    As long as the federal laws regarding access to public airways – t.v. and radio broadcasts; and the internet – ensure free flowing information in the commons, this SCOTUS decision should have minimal impact on our political discourse.  Of course, this means, instead of focusing all of our attention on the candidates’ position on such issues as ‘choice,’ or ‘universal health,’ or ‘cap and trade,’ we should also focus on their positions on regulation of the Internet.  Plus, we should pay more attention to who is appointed to head the FCC; and keep an eye on requests from that agency for public comment. http://www.fcc.gov/

  • jbjd

    Diana L.C., you said, “I would say that the only hope is to teach voters to consider the source of any campaign ad.  We all need to think carefully what the ad’s sponsors think they will gain if their candidate or issue is elected/passed and forget the actual words and images spoken in the ads.  We need to be better “readers” of the media.  
     
    But then, what good is hoping for that?”

    But this diligence is precisely what democracy dictates.  And that we have perhaps not been as politically intelligent as, perhaps, those who would use their superior political intelligence against us; does not mean, we should rig the system to account for our ignorance.

  • jbjd

    Interestingly, when you read this Citizens decision, you will see, in fashioning their ruling, the SCOTUS actually did strike down a former case on campaign contributions.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Thank you for the information, jbjd. The free, unfettered, and timely flow of information is a requirement for any free society.

  • jbjd

    Interestingly, when you read this Citizens decision, you will see, in fashioning their ruling, the SCOTUS explicitly struck down their former case on campaign contributions.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Thank you for the information, jbjd. The free, unfettered, and timely flow of information is a requirement for any free society.

    I must say, though, that from my POV, a corporation cannot be an individual any more than a cat can be a dog. It comes down to transcendent definitions. The atman is not the brahman in this case.

  • FLDemFem

    So corporate profits would be tax-exempt?? That would put a huge hole in the tax revenues. And would that extend to corporate profits that are disbursed to citizens/investors? Or would the citizens be taxed on them and the corporations get a free ride? And FYI, the citizens who are part of the corporation are already represented in Congress if they live in the US. So you are saying that people who are part of a corporation should get double representation?? You aren’t making any sense at all.

  • Hokma

    If you examine the possibility of public funding you involve the very corruption that is involved here – government. Having no funding for political campaigns would also be knocked down.

    There may be legal means of limiting the media power of corporations, unions, and special interests groups – one being term limits – but I think this is simply a fact of life we have to accept.

    The days of an individuals voice having as much clout as a special interest group are long gone. the only thing we have is a vote which trumps all the money of special interests.

  • jbjd

    Ferd, that aspect of the case has gotten a lot of attention but, the ruling that a corporation is a person is old. First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti (http://www.cecc.gov/pages/virtualAcad/exp/expbellottidecision.php?PHPSESSID=6c63582dedac38e13af1ee022917a702

  • jbjd

    Keep in mind, certain political speech is already prohibited, by law.  For example, in MA, saying something about your opponent you know is untrue and which will injure him, is a crime.  http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/56-42.htm

  • Hokma

    I agree with your analysis.

    I don’t know enough about this but it seems to me nothing changes.

    Up to now corporations and unions can establish PAC with individuals making “voluntary” donations to be used for political campaign advertising. I know that with union members there is nothing voluntary about it and within many corporations there has always been a push for employees to contribute with senior executives virtually mandated to doing it.

    Regarding Obama’s opposition I noticed he failed to mention labor unions or trade organizations like trial attorneys.

    I also agree that today individuals have a far greater voice in political discourse because of the Internet than they have had in decades past. The Internet is a far more powerful media vehicle today than television or radio.

  • Anonymous

    Mmmm, yum!  Sounds like a plan to me!!  :-D

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Mmmm, yum!  Sounds like a plan to me!!  :-D

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    My point is that many of us here did not support Obama, but those who DID most definitely did the rest of us a disservice by getting us ALL in this mess.  We, those of us with clear minds, are working pretty hard to repair the damage done.

    I’m not sure who you mean has to own it – if you mean Obamabots, I agree, and they can begin restoring this nation to a democracy anytime, but I don’t see a whole lot of evidence of that.

  • Docelder

    These constitutional law points aren’t somewhere I feel strong commenting on. It does seem rather ominous to me now who we have as President and what his background in constitutional law is given his far left radical history. I think it may be that corporatism is winning here, and no matter if we have the far right or the far left in charge… regular people wouldn’t be able to tell them apart by the effect… the corporatists having it “covered” either way.

  • Anonymous

    Wow, let’s just get hysterical.  The last time I voted, I don’t remember NBC, or Apple, or IBM standing next to me.  People vote, corporations don’t.  If the people choose to base their vote solely on ads and political rhetoric then they deserve the politicians that they elect.

    You should be less worried about corporations exercising their freedom of speech (because things that politicians do affect them both negatively and positively, just as they affect the people) and more worried about making sure everyone gets properly educated within our current school systems (if that’s even possible).

  • jbjd

    Hokma, I belong to a teachers’ union, which endorsed BO for POTUS.  Imagine my dilemma, here I am, trying to teach American History, for example, and knowing the man was not vetted as to Constitutional eligibility – my students were as certain he was from Kansas as from Kenya – even in those states that require only eligible candidates can get their names printed on state ballots and NP et. al CERTIFIED such eligibility…

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    That is indeed interesting, jbjd, and quite troubling.  Is there any recourse?  Appeal, perhaps?

  • Docelder

    jbjd… in regard to my post above, and my laymans reading of one of professor Obama’s lectures over a year and a half ago now… What rights if any are granted former slaves and or corporations under the 14th amendment that may be superior to the rights granted everybody else under the original constitution? I don’t think I am remembering that lecture material wrong. I remember the topic of it, but I don’t know I could find it again. It was deep linked on the U of Chicago’s website and found by examining the ten year old birthday version of the google cache.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Exactly, beachnan – I cannot believe they got away with essentially saying, “well, we’ll look at it after we’ve spent it.”  Say whaaa?

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Yes, EWard – well said!!

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    And isn’t “One World” what Obama was hoping to achieve with his “World Citizen” status?  Uh, yeah.  RIP, USA, indeed…

  • AC

    jbjd,

    I realize why you look at things the way you do with whether the opinion is written to your satisfaction.  It’s a 5-4 decision–hardly decisive.

    But this dissent in part (in your link) by Justice Rehnquist quoting Marshall means more to me than the hokus pocus practiced by many lawyers today:

    Early in our history, Mr. Chief Justice Marshall described the status of a corporation in the eyes of federal law:

    “A corporation is an artificial being, invisible, intangible, and existing only in contemplation of law. Being the mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the charter of creation confers upon it, either expressly, or as incidental to its very existence. These are such as are supposed best calculated to effect the object for which it was created.” Dartmouth College v. Woodward, 4 Wheat. 518, 636 (1819).
    It’s a fiction!

    Shakespeare had it right!

  • Ferd Berfle

    You’re right RRRA

  • foxyladi14

    the potus was ticked

  • ces

    Nice try. I’m not hysterical, it’s realistic.

    Money = power. With money/power comes all the media exposure it can buy. 

    Candidates can now be literally and legally bought and paid for by a single corporate entity, even those with large percentage of foreign shareholders.

    With that big green “carrot” in their faces, they won’t be voting for their constituents’ best interests, but that of their “sponsor”. 

    Equality to each woMan, not business entity.

    And schools? Give me a break, it’s the damn business world that has largely corrupted our education system. From devaluing high tech or science jobs, to sending those jobs overseas, to bribing universities into doing their research for them (in exchange for ‘endowments’ or a new building….there are individual offices in Ohio State’s new Architecture building that are ‘sponsored’ by corporations/industries, with little plaques by the doors and all), to marketing and lobbying for the shit we buy at Walmart which does nothing by devalue American jobs and manufacturing. 

    So I’ll turn it around to you and say, let individual politicians stand by themselves and let individual teachers teach and all be judged by their own merit, not who has the best PR firm.

  • Docelder

    It may have been an expanded course syllabus that I read on that, now that I think about it it’s coming back to me. Those were late night long hour searches. To no appreciable avail. Look where we are.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Thank you so much for this informative post, jbjd – I knew I could count on you to break it down for us.

    Very interesting, too, abt the law regarding political speech.  Am I reading this correctly that this is a law in MA?  Sure doesn’t seem like it’s federal from what I have seen…

  • AC

    jbjd,

    I realize why you look at things the way you do with whether the opinion is written to your satisfaction. It’s a 5-4 decision–hardly decisive.

    But this dissent in part (in your link) by Justice Rehnquist quoting Marshall means more to me than the hokus pocus practiced by many lawyers today:

    Early in our history, Mr. Chief Justice Marshall described the status of a corporation in the eyes of federal law:

    “A corporation is an artificial being, invisible, intangible, and existing only in contemplation of law. Being the mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the charter of creation confers upon it, either expressly, or as incidental to its very existence. These are such as are supposed best calculated to effect the object for which it was created.” Dartmouth College v. Woodward, 4 Wheat. 518, 636 (1819).

    It’s a fiction! 
    Shakespeare had it right!

  • Ferd Berfle

    However, jbjd, you still use your lawyer’s hat. My Father was a lawyer and he made it clear to me that lawyer’s definitions were not in keeping with definitions as defined via linguistics and/or practicality. The problem here, as I see it, is that the court is going against the very grsin of what it is to be human–an individual, if you like. I am NOT a conglomerate; I am NOT a multinational; I am NOT immortal. I live, breathe, and die–just like an individual. Corporations do not. Corporations do not serve; they do not protest on a street corner; they do not lose sleep over stupid decisions.

    When a corporation can do all the things I do, then they get the rights I reserve to myself. If this is not to the liking of Attorneys, then I suggest a change in likes.

    Do you hear us?

  • Sassy

    Great comment EWard!
    BO’s one billion was more than Bush/Gore campaigns combined!

  • Ferd Berfle

    You aren’t wrong in feeling that way, Doc. you’re probably saner than me. Don’t stop feeling that way.

  • jbjd

    AC, I hear you but, it’s a dissent!  Even Brown v. Board of Education was not able to overturn Plessy v. Ferguson just because the court’s holding in that earlier case was ‘wrong’; rather, Plaintiffs had to establish factually that, the concept of “separate” (as applied to education) is not “equal.” 

  • Ferd Berfle

    “People vote, corporations don’t.”

    No, Guest, up until now they only bought under the table. Now they can do it in the open and pay for the likes of you without batting an eye and vote by proxy. Are you ready for your notoriety as being a stupid fucker, Cletus?

  • AC

    jbjd,
    There you go with the lawyerspeek:
    “I’ts a dissent”

    What the hell does that mean?  Does a dissent make it wrong?

    And thanks for bringing up Plessy v. Ferguson was the dissent in that case wrong, or the dissent in Dred Scott?

    Come on, take off your lawyer hat and put on your people hat.
    I think you like mob rule not rational rule.

  • WestVirginia304

    Hokma.  You are right.  Obama fails to mention unions and trial lawyers.  Organizing for America is using the decision to raise money.  Here is what came from them:

    ***********************************
    Yesterday morning, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that corporations can spend freely in federal elections.

    It’s a green light for a new stampede of special interest money in our politics, giving their lobbyists even more power in Washington. Now, every candidate who fights for change could face limitless attacks from corporate special interests like health insurance companies and Wall Street banks.

    While the GOP is celebrating a victory for its special interest allies, President Obama is working with leaders in Congress to craft a forceful response that protects the voices of ordinary citizens.

    The Supreme Court decision overturned a 20-year precedent saying that corporations could not pay for campaign ads from their general treasuries. And it struck down a law saying corporations couldn’t buy “issue ads” — which only thinly veil support for or opposition to specific candidates — in the closing days of campaigns.

    The result? Corporations can unleash multi-million-dollar ad barrages against candidates who try to curb special interest power, or devote millions to propping up elected officials who back their schemes.

    With no limits on their spending, big oil, Wall Street banks, and health insurance companies will try to drown out the voices of everyday Americans — and Republicans seem ecstatic.

    While opponents of change in Congress are praising this victory for special interests, President Obama has tasked his administration and Congress with identifying a fix to preserve our democracy — and we need to show that the American people stand with him.

    Thanks,

    Mitch

    Mitch Stewart
    Director
    Organizing for America
    ***********************************
    And the letter ends with a Donate button.

  • jbjd

    R3A, yes; here is a link to an article about Scott Brown filing a complaint against Martha Coakley for that ad indicating he supports denying emergency care for victims of rape. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/01/massachusetts-dem-mailer-scott-brown-wants-hospitals-to-turn-away-all-rape-victims-brown-files-crimi.php

  • devilish

    Name calling.  Classy.

    If a corporation wants to publicly state their postion on a issue or candidate, then that gives me the freedom to know that position and choose to assocate/disassociate myself with that corporation.  Currently no one knows, because most of these dealings are back room affairs.

    I think these hysterics about the end of democracy are just over the top.  This isn’t the early 1900s, people.  We have instant access to information from all over the world.  We have citizen bloggers/reporters, tons of news sources, connections with friends and family that are unprecedented.  The information to make an informed decision is there for anybody that chooses to learn.

    Those who choose to delve no further than political ads are more a blight on democracy then any corporation will ever be.

  • Sassy

    The democrats just got their ass kicked in three elections.
    BO’s supporters hover at about 38% on every issue from A to Z, but they need to reclaim some of those poor, Bible clingers and independents.
    To their surprise, the attacks on insurance companies didn’t do it, so then they tried Wall Street.
    Now it’s on to the injustice of the commoner being shut out of the electoral process.
    This from a party who disenfranchised millions of voters in 2008!
    Just a political ploy to fire partisan anger!

  • Ferd Berfle

    Distinctions:

    I am corporation. I:

    1) Use my proxy to vote my position
    2) Use commercials to voice my opinion
    3) Use other’s money to sell a product
    4) Use my influence to buy a pollitician
    5) Use the law to gain advantage
    6) Use the state of the economy to create dissent
    7) Use dissent to further ny agenda

    I am a person. I;

    1) Serve my country
    2) Vote my conscience
    3) Give to those in need
    4) Play by the rules
    5) Never blame others when I am at fault
    6) Work
    7) Expect the same of others

    Say any of these aren’t true.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Sorry for the misspellings–I’m tired.

  • Patience

    Oh, this really is choice, WV304.  Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

  • Sassy

    Very well stated!
    I agree!

  • AC

    More class than you devilish, all you do is pose questions but never answer any.  You are one of Stalins “USEFUL IDIOTS”

  • lark

    It can be mute if I didn’t recalled the word moot when I was writing that and also if I made a mistake, then it can be mute.

  • lark

    It can be mute if I didn’t recalled the word moot when I was writing that and also if I made a mistake, then it can be mute. And for many other reasons too it can be mute.

  • Ferd Berfle

    I wrote a serious bulletized list and lost it–I’ll attempt to recreate it, not that it matters because the bots have won. Groupthink is the norm now, except those who suffer most aren’t even aware of it. Too bad. Those of us who actually live and breathe, vote and curse are very much in tune with the stupidity of the nonsense being perpetrated. Fuck the conglomerate:

    I am a corporation, I can:

    1) Mold policy without shedding a drop of blood
    2) Ask without participating
    3) Demand without reciprocating
    4) Punish without recourse
    5) Take

    I am an individual, I can:
    1) Fight and die for a cause I believe in
    2) Ask to participate
    3) Give full measure
    4) Find pride in my contribution
    5) Give

  • Ferd Berfle

    “Fuck the conglomerate”

    And fuck anyone who wants to take me to task. I defy anyone to find even one instance where what I have posted isn’t true.

    Come on–let’s have it.

    This is especially written for bots and hive-collective-lovers who want to make an ass of themselves in public. Try me, assholes.

  • lark

    Like Yoda said, ‘there is still another way.’ Well, he didn’t say that. For example, a flat tax (which I am not for and don’t think will happen) can also undo it. On the other hand, a value added tax would do the reverse and would trump the individual’s rights. And a VAT has a lot of probability of being instituted in the next 10 to 20 years, easily. Specially if the Dem party continues in control.

  • Ferd Berfle

    AC: jbjd only knows what he is used to. You and i speak in terms of the Queen’s English and we are both masters at it. No fault on him or us. He speaks lawyerese. No offense jbjd, but the definitions are already there–use them. We who speak real English do not recognize your use. Sorry. Guilty and innocent mean just that.

    So does assholes and idiots.

  • Ferd Berfle

    I’m waiting, Lark.

  • TeakWoodKite
  • lark

    Well, my explanation is like this. If only citizens pay ‘income taxes’ and those were all the taxes the federal government can collect, then employers would only hire citizens, since employers would have a vested interest in seeing that the government has sufficient funds to operate. Non-citizens would be excluded from employment since they do not pay taxes. If corporations would not pay taxes, they also would mean nothing to the government and to society – their ‘personhood’ (what we are discussing here) would go away.

    This is our country and we should pay for it – and outsiders should stay out of it.

  • lark

    You think so. If corporations would not pay taxes then they would have to distribute their profits to their employees in a more equitable way so employees would make more money. Why? Because the corporations would mean nothing to society – all the meaning corporations have would go to the people that work in them – to their employees. And thus your whole argument would end and your problem with this SCOTUS decision would not exist anymore.

  • WestVirginia304

    OK.  If I ever need legal help I want jbjd, with you as consultant.  This has turned out to be one of the deepest thinking threads I have seen in a long time.  Who needs the talking heads on TV when we have NQ?

  • Ferd Berfle

    jbjd: You must find a way to refuse that procliivity for delibrerate obfuscation you have for the law. I am not buying it. In every other world, a lie is a lie. You’re too honest for that.

  • lark

    Citizens only should (in my opinion) pay taxes and they would pay more taxes because they would make more money. Foreign investors would first pay taxes as a citizen and then take their profits because foreign investors would only be able to invest if a citizen sponsors his investment. No discrimination against foreign investors. But foreign corporations would not be able to invest.

  • lark

    And just wait until the Value Added Tax comes in. Then why vote at all?

  • lark

    And just wait until the Value Added Tax comes in. Then why vote at all? And what country?

  • AC

    ces,
    If I may, only to support what you write that corp. do–support research, buildings etc.

    The want us to believe they’re being benevolent but those things are treated as expenses and therefore lessen their tax liability which means less to support our governments effort to provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare.
    This also means that We The People have to make up for the slack that corporations do not contribute.
    Let them do something really benevolent and not have the ability to reduce their tax liability.

    Gota get back to the game.
    Have a nice one.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Lark asks about taxes and nothing else. WHAT?

  • lark

    I tried to explain that to Ferd, but he didn’t hear me. I added that the whole purpose of a corporation is for the government to communicate with its shareholders – that there is very little else about them.

  • My other site

    I don’t know for sure, but legally, corporations have always been treated as persons.  Maybe that’s why their contributions can’t be limited?  Don’t know.

  • My other site

    Yes, creeper, Obama certainly got his share of corporate and union money.

  • My other site

    The idea of corportions being “persons” came out of the Court’s interpretation of the 14th Amendment.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Bullshit

  • jbjd

    WV304:  HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!  BO is shilling the D Corporation to eschew the SCOTUS’ decision corporations can contribute unlimited monies to political speech, by soliciting unlimited contributions to the D Corporation to run ads to reject the elimination of limits…………………………………..
    http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/hrvcofficialrules/

    Thanks; I needed that.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Still waiting. Nothing here for you bots

  • lark

    Ferd, if you could understand “communication” you would understand why the government made the corporation an individual. But don’t get wrong, I don’t know what I am talking about, okay. I truly don’t. I only write here to communicate and not to prove that I know anything.

  • Peggy Sue

    Ferd, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.  For those of us who find this ruling objectionable, even obscene it’s because we find equating the conglomerate with the individual, a person with an actual heartbeat, absolutely reprehensible. And therefore affording First Amendment Rights to that conglomerate appears not only wrong, but morally wrong. 

    I certainly do not pretend any legal expertise.  We have jbjd for that and I certainly appreciate and respect her input.  But there is that old Dickens’ line:

    “If the law supposes that then the law is an ass, an idiot.”

    And for that reason, your list is profoundly true and makes the American in me weep over the direction this country seems hellbent on taking. 

    Keep fighting the good fight and prodding the groupthink!  I support your stance all the way.

  • Sonic Ninja Kitty

    RRRA, Great gathering of information on this topic.  With all due respect to jbjd (who knows her stuff) on the money and free speech issue, I really think this ruling is a blow to ‘the individual’ in a broader perspective.  That is my main concern. 

    Because I’m lazy (LOL) and because this is important enough for everyone to get their two cents in, I will repost a comment I made on another blog that explains why:

    “The claim that this ruling protects ‘free speech’ is a front. What is ‘free speech’ if it is available only to certain groups? For example, check out the Commission on Presidential Debates:

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Commission_on_Presidential_Debates

    They effectively lock out third party candidates. Some freedom. There is even supposedly a law that limits nationally televised presidential debates to the 2 major parties, although I have not been able to locate a link. Anyway–that’s why Ron Paul had to go with the republican party. So, if you are talking about freedom, all this recent ruling does is allow some ‘freedoms’ within a greater unfree system.

    They’re letting you guys revel in the freedom of your sandbox while they orchestrate a takeover of the playground, LOL.

    The more important aspect of this ruling was its granting of corporate entities ‘personhood’. IMHO, it’s a travesty of the Constitution. Some Libertarians–like at the Cato Institute–argue this ruling is OK for this case of ‘free speech’. After all, any number of individuals can group together and keep a claim to free speech, so why should a corporation be considered any different?

    Well it IS different. If you think about it, how can a concentration of capital (which is really what a corporation is) lay any claim to free speech? It cannot. Only individuals or groups of individuals can have the right to free speech. (That Cato seems to me to be getting very sketchy lately.)

    This doctrine of corporate personhood is going to travel WAY beyond this issue of ‘free speech’. Lobbyists are already planning ways to block the proposed tax on big banks based on this ruling.

    Regarding issues such as health, safety, pollution, and wages, individuals are having and will continue to have many, many troubles as this ‘corporate personhood’ issue grows. With a corporate ‘person’ there is no one real person accountable, no one real person to pursue. Corporate ‘persons’ will be able to outspend and outlive individuals who try to file claims against them.”

    I don’t really care about precedent on the corporate personhood issue.  The precedent is constitutionally wrong, IMHO. 

    Thanks for a great discussion, RRRA.

  • Ferd Berfle

    OK, Lark, I’ll  bite.  Taxes are for non-corporate America. After all corporate America sends their cildren off to war; they fight and die. They are the epitome of great people.

  • lark

    I sense that you are in a very regressive mode and why, for some ‘initial bias’ that captured your imagination. The corporation is an entity that exist only for communication purposes.

  • lark

    Ferd, I sense that you are in a very regressive mode and why, for some ‘initial bias’ that captured your imagination. The corporation is an entity that exist only for communication purposes. It has no other reason.

  • lark

    If a corporation does not pay taxes, it becomes meaningless. For example, S-corporations do not pay taxes. So they are virtually extinct.

  • FLDemFem

    I am never mute. :-D And the words mean two entirely different things. Look it up.

  • AC

    My other site,

    No exactly correct.  They were treated like “fictitious persons” .

    Excuse me for not attempting to define it because I believe a person is a person period.  And I further believe that that (my definition) is what the Founding Father also meant. The Bill of Rights was enacted to protect the right of the person from unbridled government power.

    Back to the game.

    By the way YOU GO FERD!

  • AC

    My other site,

    No exactly correct. They were treated like “fictitious persons” .

    Excuse me for not attempting to define it because I believe a person is a person period. And I further believe  that (my definition) is what the Founding Father also meant.
    The Bill of Rights was enacted to protect the rights of the person from unbridled malevolent government power. 

    Back to the game.

    By the way YOU GO FERD!

  • lark

    To me taxes are supposed to be the privilege of citizens and only citizens should pay for their government. Corporations should not pay taxes and the federal government should not collect sales taxes such like gasoline taxes. That way only citizens have control of the government. It would become ‘our’ government. Legal immigrants can pay into an escrow account their taxes which would enter into the federal government when they swore their citizenship status. End of all evil.

  • AC

    Corporations of every persuasion are created to negate personal liability, to make money, and not pay taxes.  Is this clear?

  • AC

    lark,
    Corporations of every persuasion are created to negate personal liability, to make money, and not pay taxes. Is this clear?

  • FLDemFem

    That is extreme protectionism and it is the fastest way to get all foreign investment out of the US. And the paperwork would denude every forest in the world.

    Besides, if I recall correctly any corporation that is doing business in the US must also be incorporated in the US, usually as a wholly-owned subsidiary of the parent corporation. Delaware and Connecticut are two favorite corporation states. And some states require in-state incorporation as well for the corporation to do business there. It’s a matter of fees and paperwork, and presto, another corporation. So what’s your point??

  • AC

    Ferd,
    As Justice Potter Stewart retorted in respect to pornography:

    I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so.
    But I know it when I see it…

    And in that breath I know  persons when I see them.

  • bayareavoter

    The bottom line is that until we take money entirely out of politics we won’t have real democracy.

    Meg Whitman, supporter of Romney, chairwoman who ruined ebay, has already put $39 MILLION of her own money into her campaign for Repug primary for Governor here in CA and refuses to meet with the press or give interviews. She only buys ads.

    That is not democracy.

    The Supreme Court ruling has unfortunately, just added to my current cynicism that began as I watched Hillary get railroaded out of the way by her own party.

    And the ruling reminds me that elections do matter because if Gore had been seated or if Kerry had won we wouldn’t have the corporatists sitting on the SC.

    I think we need term limits for SCOTUS.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Thanks, jbjd – I thought there had been something said abt him that wasn’t true.  That is exactly abt what I was wondering.  I appreciate it!!

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    It really is astonishing, isn’t it?  Oh, that Obama – what a card, huh??

    Honestly, they’re a whole bunch of comedians over there at OFA and Obamaland.  They rail against the very people who got Obama into the WH.

    You know what this reminds me of?  Remember when Obama was going on and on abt NAFTA, but behind everyone’s back, was telling the Canadians not to worry, he wasn’t going to change a thing?  Yep, that’s it – he goes on and on to the people, then goes behind our collective backs to suck up to the people he just criticized…

  • jbjd

    SNK, first, thank you for the compliment.  Now, you raise so many good points that cried out to me for response.  Here goes, in no particular order of import.

    1.  The Commission on Presidential Debates is a private, not public organization.  (.org and not .gov)  It was started by the D’s and R’s; not surprising they would make difficult the appearance of a 3rd party candidate.  But a 3rd party candidate can respond to any questions or comments aired during the ‘debate,’ in a video posted on YouTube.
    http://www.commondreams.org/views/090100-101.htm

    Thus, not participating in these debates results in no net loss of freedom to speak or access to listeners.

    2.  As I said, I haven’t read the whole SCOTUS decision but, the part I read mentioned, a corporation can consist of an individual.  The problem in de-classifying all corporations as people includes these single person organizations (or sole proprietorships).

    3.  I listed the SCOTUS ruling that construed corporations as people for the purpose of protected speech, First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti.  But I forgot to say, this case was decided in 1978!  And it, like this present case, came down 5-4.  This means, just like in the other notable cases I cited, Plessy v. Ferguson (1896, ruling separate can still be equal); and Brown v. Board of Education (1954, ruling separate cannot be equal), given the proper case and a well-reasoned argument, the court could always change its mind as to the definition of corporation as person for the purpose of determining first amendment freedom of speech.

  • Sonic Ninja Kitty

    Hi jbjd! 

    With #1–yes. It is a private group, but there are all those invisible links between our government and it’s propagand machine–oops, I mean the two parties and the MSM, aren’t there?

    Plus there is always a difference between the technical and how things play out.  How often are third (4th, 5th, etc) party candidates included in these things–especially the TV debates, which are still the ‘biggies’?

    You are the expert and are spot on, but just because things are technically legal doesn’t mean they are turn out fair (or even Constitutional in everyone’s opinion). 

    Oh I’m so cynical.  It’s just what I do, LOL.

  • AC

    Sonic Ninja Kitty,
    It was a pleasure reading your take on this issue.

  • Docelder

    I am not so sure we wouldn’t still have corporatists in the court. Look seriously at Gore and Kerry. Gore is hawking the carbon exchange and Kerry is married into corporate America. No, I don’t think we really had a choice. I think we needed to think we had a choice, but that it was covered either way. Until this past election cycle where Obama was it. He was selected from the start and whatever it took, all the way to a the manufactured financial meltdown he was going to be it. I think this unholy alliance between government, corporations has been going on for a while. What Obama brought to the table that nobody else could was the labor unions. The unholy triad is now complete and the corporatists now rule with an iron fist. They have scotus, they have the executive, and they have both the house and senate in their grasp.

  • Patience

    Until I learn more about the SCOTUS decision, from what I’ve learned so far the ruling seems to me to present more of a distinction without necessarily much of a real difference.  It’s my guess most corporations and businesses will, for various reasons, continue to obfuscate, via the many proxies available to them, their political contributions.  Some may be more up-front about it with this ruling but since image, reputation, etc. mean a LOT to giant corporations, I suspect few will stand alone and openly identify their contributions.  I also suspect George Soros and his ilk will continue to choose to fly under the radar as well – each and all giving as usual to righteously/pompously-named groups and associations.  Will even more money flow into politics because of this ruling?  Maybe.  But I wouldn’t be surprised if, with the help of pre-existing loopholes and savvy attorneys, canny corporations have felt little restraint so far.

    What I’m wondering is, why are there limits for campaign contributions rather than limits in campaign spending?  Without admittedly having given it a lot of thought, it would seem to solve a lot of the problems associated with political contributions without necessarily impinging on free speech.  

  • lark

    To me, and I am a member of Savage Nation, if it pays taxes to the government then the government needs to grant it freedom of speech. But that’s only my rule of thumb. :)

  • lark

    When we are given Value Added Tax then the end of the citizen’s influence.

  • jangles

    If corporations have free speech, then I think they should have the right to vote.  Now how do we count them.  Does each corporation get one vote or since they are multi-fingered do they get some voting exponent.  Many of them are hq in Delaware.  Would they get their votes counted there?  How about the census?

  • jbjd

    SNK, before the 2008 general election cycle, I knew no more than anyone else who was bamboozled by the D’s and their allies.  I, too, trusted certain organizations (NY Times; CNN) and politicians (D’s, not R’s), blindly.  I had no idea the DNC is shorthand for the Democratic National Committee Services Corporation.  Now, after countless hours of reading, and unraveling, I know better.  You write, “…just because things are technically legal doesn’t mean they are (sic) turn out fair (or even Constitutional in everyone’s opinion). “  I absolutely agree.  And ‘things’ are only legal because of the laws we wrote and the cases brought before the SCOTUS allowing the Justices to interpret those laws for Constitutionality.  If the decision is unfair then, let Congress pass a better law limiting corporate financing of political speech – remember, the limits on contributions to individuals still stands – and compel injured parties to take their case to the SCOTUS. 

    But generally, I do not find problematic unlimited expenditures on political speech.  No matter how much BO spends, for example, I believe nothing that comes out of his mouth.

    (I have to tell you, I am well acquainted with that example of the Presidential Debate Commission, for this reason.  At least a couple of these lawsuits actually argued that, the CPD’s requirement that only eligible candidates may participate (“evidence of Constitutional eligibility”) cannot have been satisfied, notwithstanding BO participated in those debates!  (I was unaware that anyone arguing he IS a NBC had raised as support for their claim, the fact he participated in those debates!)  Who cares whether the CPD ‘says’ anyone is Constitutionally eligible for the job!  They have no privity to us, that is, no legal relationship exists between that organization and us that obligates them to act in any particular way for our benefit or, entitles us to expect any particular conduct from them.  But they cleverly named themselves “The Commission on Presidential Debates”; and most of America fell for their subterfuge, hook,line, and sinker.  Limiting all the corporate campaign contributions in the world will not fix that level of ignorance.  Only educating ourselves (and our fellow citizens) will.)

  • jangles

    Ruling says they must disclose their contributions—campaign reporting laws will apply.

  • lark

    My point is that there are ways to have a country completely different from the one we have now and have a government that responds to its citizens demands. Things don’t have to be the way they are.

  • lark

    Ferd, in top of all your complaints, and as you can see I am not in disagreement with your complaints, the next step for our government is to establish VAT – value added tax. And that will make you completely irrelevant, completely expendable, completely a non-entity. So the plans are to burry you.

  • jangles

    So why are their limits on individual contributions to candidates?  Isn’t that a limitation on my freedom of speech?

  • jbjd

    But BAV, even MW spending that money is political speech, which HAS communicated to you.  That is, you appear to reject her candidacy in part because she spends that money to buy ads (to gain visibility) but will not give interviews, presumably because she does not need this exposure.  Thus, voters are denied a chance to get to know the real unscripted candidate.  And you also learned she supports MR, whom you don’t, which also appears to color your choice.

  • lark

    Correct. And what I am saying as my conclusion to participating in this thread is that I can see it now very very clearly – Ferds outrage is justified but it has already been discounted. When Value Added Tax is incorporated then we are as good as dead individuals – America the land of the zombies.

  • lark

    Correct. And what I am saying as my conclusion to participating in this thread is that I can see it now very very clearly – Ferds outrage is justified but it has already been discounted. When Value Added Tax is incorporated then we are as good as dead individualsAmerica the land of the zombies.

  • jbjd

    jangles, this is where you get into the level of scrutiny the SCOTUS applies to consider a case.  If the questioned legislation impacts a fundamental right, the court will consider whether the government had a compelling interest in legislating (an aspect of) that right; and narrowly tailored the legislation to that interest.  Purchasing a candidate versus purchasing air time that favorably mentions a candidate (or unfavorably mentions her or his opponent) implicates a different analysis.

  • jbjd

    jangles, this is where you get into the level of scrutiny the SCOTUS applies to consider a case.  If the questioned legislation impacts a fundamental right, the court will consider whether the government had a compelling interest in legislating (an aspect of) that right; and narrowly tailored the legislation to that interest.  (This is called a “strict scrutiny” analysis.)  Purchasing a candidate versus purchasing air time that favorably mentions a candidate (or unfavorably mentions her or his opponent) implicates a different analysis.

  • lark

    Ferd you forgot one beautiful thing the corporation can do. It can shut off your car in the middle of your trip just because… err the police says it needs to talk to you.

  • Sonic Ninja Kitty

    oooooo—interesting about the CPD.

    Here’s to educating people, in whatever way our gifts allow.  Yours are awesome–thanks, friend!

  • elaine

    I don’t like the decision any more than any of you however there’s really not much new here. The Court has precedents on this topic going back to the robber barons & the railroads. In the early 20th century these were the only folks with the money to take a case all the way to the Supremes & they usually won. Of all the arguments made on this thread I’m most captivated by Ferd’s argument:  if corps are individuals that  argument should “cut both ways.” Maybe someday some smarty pants lawyer will give that argument a whirl. It could get really interesting…maybe in product liability cases this happens (to an extent) already.

  • elaine

    Orin Hatch pointed out this morning on ABC(?) (Not sure, I was channel surfing) that counter to common perception the Dems receive more big bucks from the corps than the Republicans. I know I’m constantly taking notice of how pro Dem CNBC is with only a few exceptions like Larry Kudlowe &  Michelle Caruso-Cabrea (who went to Wellesley).  Jim Cramer, Maria Bartolomeo, Steve Liseman, etc are all Dems & this is G.E. Financial news? It’ll be interesting to see if the tone changes any when Comcast takes over.

  • bayareavoter

    But I don’t want to live in a country where the woman with her own $39 million to spend can buy an election.

  • viking

    The Citizens United v. FEC decision was correct and needed.  Many of you are falling for a false, red herring, argument about corps being individuals.  That line of thinking entirely misses the point of the opinion, not to mention existing law for well over 100 years.

    Ferd is the biggest proponent on this thread that I’ve read that this decision is somehow dreadful to the republic.  He claims this somehow relegates our nation into one that is voted by corporations instead of freely made votes of individuals.  Ferd can only be right if we accept the premise that individual people will be necessarily persuaded by commercial entities and those opinions on candidates, period.   Personally, I have more faith in the voting public.

    Secondly, but more importantly, it will behoove any corporation to be thoughtful of whom they endorse, given that their consumers will connect the two forevermore.  I suspect that the corps. aren’t crazy happy about this ruling at all, if they marry a Chris Dodd . . . well.

  • viking

    sorry for the repeat posts, there was a long time delay, I hit ‘post’more than once.

  • Sassy

    Thanks viking!
    This has been a lively, informative discussion.
    We all deplore the perpetual splurge of money into the process, but as pointed out by jbjd, a corporation can be a sole proprietor.
    A butcher, baker, or candlestick maker, who feels victimized by eminent domain, would probably have plenty to say before the reelection of his governor or members of his legislature.

  • FLDemFem

    The way to do that is to go back to actually having the government the Founding Fathers intended instead of this bloated mess we have now. And the best way to do that is not to allow corporations or other sorts of conglomerates to influence the political scene since their interest is not always the same as the peoples’. And the interest of the people should be the highest concern of the government. We can go back to having a government that responds to the peoples’ demands. All we have to do is elect the right people. And we will as soon as we get rid of this yo-yo. That is the way this country works, and it’s the only way that would be acceptable to any American.

  • FLDemFem

    Another thing about that research, which impacts medical care. If the study shows something bad or negative about the product, the company can quash it as “proprietary” and keep doing studies until they get the result they want. And a lot of the time the studies are just “timekeepers” for patents. As long as a drug, for instance, has a study being done on it the company can extend the patent and not have to allow generic versions of the drug. Of course, they can still keep selling it at the higher price too. That higher price is justified by the cost, tax-deductible, of the research, which is being done mostly to keep the generic version off the market.

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