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Republican Intellectual Dishonesty on Terrorism Continues [UPDATED]

The Republican spin machine is going full tilt in its bogus campaign to discredit Barack Obama and Eric Holder on their handling of terrorism. I cannot believe the number of prominent folks who use the lame excuse that “we are facing a different terrorist threat” to justify ignoring the law, particularly the Constitution, and insist that someone arrested on U.S. soil is not entitled to their Miranda rights. Yep, the threat has certainly changed. Unlike the 1980s, when there were at least five major terrorist attacks against the United States in a single year, we now face sporadic, largely unsuccessful attacks. But who is counting? The Republicans and the media certainly are not. They just insist that terrorism is getting worse and, without a single shred of proof, accept the assertion as proven fact.

Initially Republicans insisted that we failed to get adequate intelligence because Abdulmuttalb was read his rights. I guess they wanted the military to spring up out of nowhere and grab him and haul him off to Guantanamo. At least we have proved a couple of things. When it comes to the issue of armed agents of a state dragging people off to prison in Cuba without any recourse to a lawyer or a court, the Republicans are devoid of irony and shame. That is stuff Castro does. Remember, Fidel has a long track record of declaring people “enemies of the state” and “terrorists” and then argues that he is protecting Cuba’s national security. In fact, he locked up the guys we organized and funded at the Bay of Pigs but why bring up that unsavory history. Every society, especially those commanded by tyrants, can always find an excuse to justify their excess. I just never thought I would see modern Republicans so eager to do a reprise of the lunacy of Senator Joe McCarthy.

Of course many of the Republicans also conveniently forget that George W. Bush employed the same methods against shoe bomber Richard Reid in 2001. What happened then? He was read his Miranda rights, he lawyered up and the FBI ultimately persuaded him to cooperate. He pled out. Information about Al Qaeda’s methods and personnel was collected. Did not hurt us one damn bit.

So Barack Obama and Eric Holder do the same damn thing. And what happens?

Republicans get a case of the vapors and swoon like acrophobics being dangled over the edge of the Grand Canyon. In fact, keen “intellects” like Mitch McConnell drive off into crazy land and insist that Georg W. Bush was wrong to arrest and prosecute Richard Reid. And if Bush was wrong then Obama certainly is off-base. Yet once again the FBI does what the FBI does best–they interrogate and they investigate and, drawing upon their unique experience in this arena, use every Law and Order trick in the book and persuade Abdulmutallab to cooperate.

When the Obama team announces that Abdulmutallab is cooperating and providing valuable intelligence then the Republicans deftly pivot and immediately insist that Obama is hurting national security by revealing that Abdulmutallab is cooperating. JESUS CHRIST!!! What the hell is the matter with these people? They don’t worry about convincing our enemies that we are weak on terror because we dare to use the rule of law. No way. They make a Federal case of the matter. Insisting that Barack and Holder are surrender monkeys bent on putting the United States in jeopardy just because they happen to believe in the quaint notion that the rule of law means something.

Let’s see. When Republicans want to impeach Bill Clinton then there is nothing greater or more important than rule of law when it comes to impeaching a guy for lying about a blow job. But when the FBI, with the backing of the Department of Justice, performs its job by the book and the Constitution then, all of a sudden, we cannot afford the rule of law.

This ought to outrage every American who cares about the Constitution, the rule of law and that cherished American principle of the rights of the individual.

I would say I was shocked (but I’m not) over the media’s willingness to repeat endlessly the Republican’s baseless charge against Obama. But we’ve seen their shit before. They, for the most part, ignored torture and violations of human rights under Bush. Only a few, like Sy Hersh and the boys at Knight Ridder, dared challenge the notion that the Government could do what it wanted, where it wanted, without having to answer to anyone.

The issue of where and how to do the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) and his cronies is a legitimate argument. For my money we should be doing a military tribunal. There is no way we could have a civilian trial in New York City. First, after what we saw in the case of Oklahoma City bomber Tim McVeigh, local prejudice forced the trial to be moved to Denver. A civilian case in New York City for the mastermind of the attack on the World Trade Center would have to be moved to another venue. Second, finding an objective jury will be tough.

Both George W. Bush and Barack Obama deserve a kick in the gonads for failing to come up with a clear policy for using military tribunals against terrorist targets. While I understand and have some sympathy for those who argue we should not run away from a civil criminal trial, I think the circumstances surrounding the capture and detention of KSM makes the military tribunal a more palatable option.

I am thoroughly amused by those who argue that the CIA is much better at getting info/intel out of suspects/terrorists than the FBI. That is pure, unadulterate HORSESHIT. CIA has no expertise at this. Not only does the FBI have legitimate expertise in this arena, but their track record with both Communists and terrorists is light years ahead of the CIA. A simple review of historical facts will establish that case. CIA analysts have no training or work requirement to interrogate people. What about field operatives? Nope. They do “debriefings,” which is an entirely differnt animal. Debriefings occur with cooperative subjects. The FBI routinely deals with lying scumbags who start off with little desire to give up any sensitive information. Yet, year after year, the FBI does a good job of getting information out of these people.

The Bureau has done it again with the Underpants Bomber. The stupid kid who started off with a tough guy act finally flipped. And he flipped despite all of the belly aching and fetal position pissing by the Republicans who apparently believe that Al Qaeda and its operatives are so smart, so tough, so clever and so well-trained that our only salvation is to torture them to get suspect information.

Republicans better wake up and re-read the Constitution. Otherwise they are in danger of behaving like Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez and Joseph Stalin. Not my idea of heroes.

UPDATE–This was so obvious, which is probably why I forgot to include it. Saddam Hussein, at least as far as the George W. Bush administration was concerned, was a terrorist. Dick Cheney was so convinced of this fact that he peddled the now disproven notion that Saddam was the culprit behind 9-11. Anyway, when he was captured by the U.S. military, he was carted off to Guantanamo and subjected to a military tribunal. Right? HELL NO. He was arrested and ultimately tried in a criminal court in Iraq. Guess George W. was soft on terrorism, just like Barack.

  • connie

    Larry, Thankyou for keeping us straight on what we are hearing out of the noise machine. It is getting louder and more brazen everyday. The louder they get the more I tune them out and I am sure many other will too. I was listening, but when they start the name calling, I can’t stand it. Just like I don’t like to hear Obama say its all BUsh’s fault.

    Our country is on the verge of failing, bother parties have been complicit in its downturn. The republicans are behaving like a child point the finger and saying “no I didn’t do it, he did it”. At this point who cares who did what, we need to get busy trying to figure out how to get ourselves out of this mess before we go into a depression like the one we had in the 20′s.

  • zaine_ridling

    Brilliant post, Larry. Orwell held that our fears will destroy us (whereas Aldous Huxley said that our pleasures will), and every repub friend I have carps constantly about “terrorist attacks.” It’s hilarious how fearful they seem to live on a daily basis, each of them gun nuts (one has over 300,000 rounds of ammo in his basement!). Yet none of them will go down the to recruiting station and sign up to serve.

  • graywolf

    LJ says the CIA “has no expertise at ,,,,,,,” getting info/intel out of terrorists.
    WHAT does the CIA have skills at?   
    Gathering HUMINT?   LOL.
    Providing accurate analysis?
    Look at that joke NIE that said that Iran was NOT developing nuclear weapons.
    How about the WMD that Iraq DIDN’T have?
    Aldrich Ames?  LOL again.
    Just what does this collection of useless bozos exactly provide for their obscene budget?
    As far as the FBI.  The Fumbling Bunch of Incompetents; who missed 9/11?
    Missed Ft. Hood Hasan.
    America is only safe, so far, from terrorists because the terrorists are even more pathetically inept than the brain dead drones at the CIA and FBI.

  • Larry Johnson

    You are a typical arm chair warrior with no expertise in these matters.  CIA field officers are pretty good at recruiting spies.  Read Gary Bernsten’s book, Jawbreaker, for a firsthand account at what the CIA is good at.

    And FBI?  How did they miss Fort Hood?  Hassan is a US Army officer.  He did not work for the FBI and had committed no crime.  But a moron like you does not understand basic facts like that.  FBI cannot just start grabbling people without a predicate act.  

    Learn what the fuck you are talking about before opening your inane piehole.

  • Ani

    LJ, well said.  I appreciate your perspective and your ability to be objective and fair.  Whenver these guys do something right, I want to hear about it as well.  Although Ido agree that the terror trial should be a military tribunal and has no place being held in NY.

    It is more and more difficult to find a news source where one can just get both sides of the story to make an educated opinion.  Most new outlets are so busy injecting their own spin into the story, it almost impossible to suss out the truth.

  • WestVirginia304

    Larry.  I am not sure I agree with your entire post.  I have to think about it more, but I am not ready to agree with more than your ending thoughts about needing both sides of the story.

  • DaddysDarlin

    Nobody has to go very far to discredit Obama or Holder, neither of them knows their ass from a hole in the ground.  Our Constitution has taken an even bigger hit at the hands of Obama and the democratic majority and as far as the Republican spin machine, don’t the Dem’s also have one?  I am a registered Independent, I vote for whomever I believe will do the best job and hear the voices and votes of the people.  I have voted democrat–Hillary Clinton–and when left with no other choice in 2008 voted Republican for the first time in a presidential election.
    I don’t trust the democrats, the past year they have done nothing but line their pockets and let special interests run rampant.  I am tired of the out and out stealing of our hard earned money, and giving it to banks who then give it to themselves in the form of outrageous bonuses.  We never needed to bail out anyone, but Obama and Geithner insisted we give our money to make their rich pals even richer, they put no restrictions on this money whatsoever, why? 
    I refuse to believe there is anything about Obama or his “posse” on Capitol Hill that really care about the American people, our status in the world, terror on American soil, I mean the White House said we would most likely experience a terrorist act on American soil by June or July. 
    Do I feel protected in my own country?  No. 
    Republican or Democrat, the democrats are the ones in charge and have been for quite sometime now, its time they started laying the blame where it belongs–the current administration.

  • Anonymous

    So what about Obama’s words to 60 Minutes last spring.  ”Do these folks deserve Miranda rights? Do they deserve to be treated like a shoplifter– down the block?”
    The president said: “Of course not.” His attorney general says: “Yes.”

  • HARP

    The High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG) was intended to replace the Bush Administration’s intelligence-gathering procedures for captured terrorist suspects. One of President Obama’s first acts after taking office was to suspend his predecessor’s controversial detention and interrogation practices, and convene a task force to recommend new ones. When the Department of Justice announced its findings on Aug. 24, among the proposals was the creation of HIG, a mobile team of experienced interrogators, linguists, al-Qaeda experts and others would swing into action to question captured suspects. Intended for deployment overseas, according to Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair, HIG’s purpose is to help higher-ups decide whether or not a detainee should be treated as a case for prosecution in federal courts, as well as to extract useful intelligence.

    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1958997,00.html?xid=rss-topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+time%2Ftopstories+%28TIME%3A+Top+Stories%29#ixzz0eeHVqSlz

  • Retired

    Interesting how we readily trust the FBI to extract info out of hardcase career Mafia killers who have pledged themselves to omerta (after being read their rights, by the way), but don’t think that we are going to have any success with a scared, disoriented foreign kid who is a recent graduate of Al Qaeda’s underwear bomber school.
    When it comes to interrogation, I have every confidence in the Bureau.  What I don’t have confidence in is our current Attorney General.  His judgment in several areas has proven to be questionable, and I doubt his dedication to defending our Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.  Of course, this was only an oath of office, Who, after all, cares about that these days?   

  • whoframedrudy

    Larry, you do a line item critique of Obama’s terror policy, which makes a lot more sense than the general criticism we hear over ‘law enforcement’ vs. ‘war.’  Krauthammer says the ‘law enforcement’ approach leads to a culture of laxity.  I never connected laxity with NYPD commissioner Ray Kelly.

    I think Obama sucks.  But I don’t like people like Krauthammer, Rich Lowry, Ed Koch undermining American propaganda in the Muslim World.  After the Christmas attack, they were all on about Obama’s Muslim outreach, “Did it work yet?”  They sound like clinical imbeciles.  By their logic, why are we even bothering in Afghanistan since WAR hasn’t worked yet?

    Krauthammer wants Obama to give some big FDR-style war propaganda speech to the American public:  ”We Are At War!”  Why do Americans need to hear war propaganda?  There’s no rationing, no draft, no war tax.

    I read that McChrystal has restricted the use of airpower to cover troops because he won’t risk civilian casualties that provide propaganda wins for the Taliban.  If troops are pinned down by snipers, McChrystal will not let an F-15 knock out the sniper if there is any risk of civilian deaths — knowing it could cause American casualties.  That’s General McChrystal, not Amnesty Int’l.  Unlike Krauthammer, McChrystal knows we’re in a propaganda war.

  • Steve1

    Hitiing it on the nail!  Both parties “Still don’t get it!”  Why don’t they just do their jobs????  Serve the people!  They are both bankrupted and corrupted…”We need a clean sweep!  Clinton, 2012!

  • getfitnow

    I don’t know if it was the same interview but POTUS also said  (re:the ones to be tried in NY) would be found guilty.

  • getfitnow

    HARP, is this the “group” that hasn’t been created yet?

  • lark

    What is intellectual dishonesty? It is not having anything to say until the other speaks first and then all you have to say is to diminish the other.

  • lark

    Intellectual Dishonesty = CNN

    Don’t tell me there are laws in Haiti.

  • Anonymous

    A simple telephone call from the Detroit bomber’s mother got him talking again. All the BS about military tribunals and military interrogrations and you only need to call his mother. 

    There is absolutely no evidence that any military tribunal or military interrogation or torture has gotten any more information than if it is done through the normal criminal proceedings. In fact, if anything the military way is more likely to fail or become problematic, as the supreme court (a conservative supreme court) has already ruled against aspects of the military tribunals.

    It is the intelligence service and good police work combined with strong judicial civil prosecutors that have kept us safe by foiling the vast majority of potential incidents and by putting all of these guys away in jail. And a lot of that was done under Bush, so for the Republicans to now come and move the goal post is shameful and sick. It is all politics, which is all it ever is these days on all issues with the Republicans. The Republicans could not give a shit about Americans or the people all they are concerned about is getting re-elected and making money for themselves.

  • Anonymous

    Great value-added comment. Why don’t you same something intelligence for once? Typical conservative, good at spouting off at the mouth as you do on here, but really add nothing to the conversation.

  • Anonymous

    Great value-added comment. Why don’t you say something intelligence for once? Typical conservative, good at spouting off at the mouth as you do on NQ, but really add nothing to the conversation.

  • Anonymous

    Ignoramusis like you are the reason this country is in trouble.

  • FLDemFem

    Guest, the plural of ignoramus is ignorami. Given your level of ignorance, it’s not surprising you don’t know that either.

  • FLDemFem

    Well, it’s not surprising that Obama and his cohorts don’t pay attention to the Constitution. After all, Obama has said repeatedly that it’s a “flawed document”. That seemed to be his meme when he was a lecturer at U of Chicago. From what I have read, he thinks the Constitution is flawed because the framers did not put in a clause for reparations to slaves.

  • Guest

    FLDemFem: Riiiight…Obama has “no respect for the Constitution”…as opposed to Bush-Cheney, who turned the U.S. into a police state and created the climate of fear that made suspension of the constitutional principles you claim to hold dear acceptable. 

  • Guest

    Lark: What is this weird obsession you have with Haiti? You insert this topic into every thread. What is your point?

  • carol haka

    Did not an entire series of emails to terrorist(s) and statements to his colleagues and anyone within an ear shot of him send enough red flags to have Hassan looked at as a potential “terrorist”? 

    Also, I thought the shoe bomber was before the military tribunals were put in place for this kind of act.

    It needs to be clarified by the courts.  I also agree the FBI and locals had the jurisdiction initially, but was there a choice to move him on to the military once they determined he was “Al-Quida”?

  • AC

    Ok, so why is Obama continuing the same policies?

  • AC

    Ok Guest, so why is the Obama administration continuing the same policies?

  • lark

    My heart is broken with anxiety for 10 good Semaritans that are being beaten because they stopped their lives to help house, feed and educate those children. Have you read this:

    The Parable of the Good Samaritan

     25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
     26″What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
     27He answered: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
     28″You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
     29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
     30In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
     36″Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
     37The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
          Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

  • AC

    That was the Queen of Hearts, right?  Or is it the King of Stink?

  • lark

    My heart is broken with anxiety for 10 good Semaritans that are being beaten because they stopped their lives to help house, feed and educate those children. Have you read this:  
     
    The Parable of the Good Samaritan  
     
     25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”  
     26″What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”  
     27He answered: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”  
     28″You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”  
     29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”  
     30In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’  
     36″Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”  
     37The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”  
          Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

  • Guest

    Because they’re weak, scared, too easily influenced by what Fox News has to say and listen to the foolish opinions you see expressed by, as Larry would say, armchair warriors who bravely post on this blog. It’s inexcusable. And by the way, the original form of the Constitution had the 3/5 clause.  It WAS a flawed document.  Values change over time thank goodness.  For the past 9 years this country has been going backwards. But it was Bush-Cheney who created a police state. Obama is carrying on in their disgraceful legacy, for which he should be ashamed.

  • Guest

    The people who took those children claimed Dominican authorities told  them they could bring the children across the border.  Since when do Dominicans have the right to make these sorts of decisions on behalf of citizens of another country?  And some of the children were crying because they had living parents.  Allowing these people to remove children from a country without proper documentation opens the door to human traffickers. They should have gone through the proper channels instead of freelancing.

  • Hokma

    “we are facing a different terrorist threat” to justify ignoring the law, particularly the Constitution, and insist that someone arrested on U.S. soil is not entitled to their Miranda rights.

    Guess what Larry, a non-citizen of the U.S. is not necessarily entitled to any rights in the United States. The preamble of the U.S. Constitution clearly states who that document is intended for – “we the people” as well as “blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” -  that clearly means United States citizens and our children – not whomever happens to show up here from another country and violates our laws. Also the Bill of Rights does not expressly give anyone rights. It forbids the government from making any laws that infringe on those rights.

    Further confirmation of the purpose of the Bill of Rights and who it was intended for was stated by Thomas Jefferson: “I hope, therefore, a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the federal government as they are already guarded against their State governments, in most instances.” Again, “the people” are U.S. citizens – not foreigners.

    Over time the goodness of Americans has made the granting of those rights to non-citizens settled law.

  • Hokma

    “we are facing a different terrorist threat” to justify ignoring the law, particularly the Constitution, and insist that someone arrested on U.S. soil is not entitled to their Miranda rights.
    Guess what Larry, a non-citizen of the U.S. is not necessarily entitled to any rights in the United States. The preamble of the U.S. Constitution clearly states who that document is intended for – “we the people” as well as “blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” -  that clearly means United States citizens and our children – not whomever happens to show up here from another country and violates our laws. Also the Bill of Rights does not expressly give anyone rights. It forbids the government from making any laws that infringe on those rights.
    Further confirmation of the purpose of the Bill of Rights and who it was intended for was stated by Thomas Jefferson: “I hope, therefore, a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the federal government as they are already guarded against their State governments, in most instances.” Again, “the people” are U.S. citizens – not foreigners.
    Over time the goodness of Americans has made the granting of those rights to non-citizens settled law.

  • Hokma

    “When the Obama team announces that Abdulmutallab is cooperating and providing valuable intelligence then the Republicans deftly pivot and immediately insist that Obama is hurting national security by revealing that Abdulmutallab is cooperating.”
    “The stupid kid who started off with a tough guy act finally flipped. And he flipped despite all of the belly aching and fetal position pissing by the Republicans who apparently believe that Al Qaeda and its operatives are so smart, so tough, so clever and so well-trained that our only salvation is to torture them to get suspect information.”
    Assuming you are referring to the anger displayed by Kit Bond, it would be worth stating facts rather than hyperbole.
    Bond was referring to actions by Obama and his people. On Monday, administration officials asked lawmakers to keep the renewed cooperation of suspect Abdulmutallab a secret. But on Tuesday night, the White House gave reporters a detailed background briefing on how FBI interrogators used the suspect’s family to win his trust.
    Bond was hyperventilating over their reckless handling of national security in order to score political points.
    As far as this guy flipping, his mommy and daddy showed up. Is that what you call a national security strategy? Call a terrorists mommy and daddy? Good luck with that.

  • AC

    Guest, I’m glad you use the word WAS because that’s different than IS.  In this instance at least you display some intellectual honesty which is more than I can say about some.

  • Hokma

    “George W. Bush employed the same methods against shoe bomber Richard Reid in 2001.”
    Historical context is important. In the 1980’s under Reagan we were still involved in a Cold War. Muslim terrorism was regarded as a Middle East issue. Under Clinton we did have the ’93 WTC bombing but who knew the extent of this network or event the existence of a network set up to destroy the USA?
    All events up until 9/11 were out of context to the current argument. After 9/11 we were at war with radical Islamists. 
    The Richard Reid show bomber was only about 2 months after 9/11 – we didn’t have a Patriot Act or a Department of Homeland Security yet. There are many things Bush did that he should not have done like release terrorist to Yemen.
    Obama has had the benefit of now decades of knowledge and experience. The difference is that he tossed it aside because HE knows better and HIS presence will solve everything. 
    So here we are and his people bungled the looms bomber by giving him Miranda rights and have been forced to back down from their show trial in Manhattan of KSM et al.
    There is a solid history of military tribunals and its use with enemies of war. I agree that both Bush and Obama bungled the use of them. They should apply to ALL enemy combatants – whether they are foreigners or U.S. citizens (treason).
    KSM is an enemy of war who was captured in Pakistan. He committed war crimes – not just murder. The incompetent handling of this mess shows that Obama is ignorant of the law or they wanted a show trial to blame Bush but it backfired.
    Abdulmutallab is no different than KSM and has no right being anywhere but in a military prison awaiting trial by a military tribunal. He is no different than the Nazis saboteurs who came ashore on Long Island during World War II and were tried before a military tribunal.
    I see you only used the irrelevant example of McVeigh. The trial of the Blind Sheik is a more relevant example. You should review what actually happened with the trial of the Blind Sheik over a period of 9 months. Do you recall the fatwa he issued which bin Laden referred to following 9/11? This is about the law and responsible behavior.

  • Hokma

    “we are facing a different terrorist threat” to justify ignoring the law, particularly the Constitution, and insist that someone arrested on U.S. soil is not entitled to their Miranda rights.
    Guess what Larry, a non-citizen of the U.S. is not necessarily entitled to any rights in the United States. The preamble of the U.S. Constitution clearly states who that document is intended for – “we the people” as well as “blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” -  that clearly means United States citizens and our children – not whomever happens to show up here from another country and violates our laws. Also the Bill of Rights does not expressly give anyone rights. It forbids the government from making any laws that infringe on those rights.
    Further confirmation of the purpose of the Bill of Rights and who it was intended for was stated by Thomas Jefferson: “I hope, therefore, a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the federal government as they are already guarded against their State governments, in most instances.” Again, “the people” are U.S. citizens – not foreigners.
    Over time the goodness of Americans has made the granting of those rights to non-citizens settled law.

  • Hokma

    “When the Obama team announces that Abdulmutallab is cooperating and providing valuable intelligence then the Republicans deftly pivot and immediately insist that Obama is hurting national security by revealing that Abdulmutallab is cooperating.”
    “The stupid kid who started off with a tough guy act finally flipped. And he flipped despite all of the belly aching and fetal position pissing by the Republicans who apparently believe that Al Qaeda and its operatives are so smart, so tough, so clever and so well-trained that our only salvation is to torture them to get suspect information.”
    Assuming you are referring to the anger displayed by Kit Bond, it would be worth stating facts rather than hyperbole.
    Bond was referring to actions by Obama and his people. On Monday, administration officials asked lawmakers to keep the renewed cooperation of suspect Abdulmutallab a secret. But on Tuesday night, the White House gave reporters a detailed background briefing on how FBI interrogators used the suspect’s family to win his trust.
    Bond was hyperventilating over their reckless handling of national security in order to score political points.
    As far as this guy flipping, his mommy and daddy showed up. Is that what you call a national security strategy? Call a terrorists mommy and daddy? Good luck with that.

  • Hokma

    “George W. Bush employed the same methods against shoe bomber Richard Reid in 2001.”
    Historical context is important. In the 1980’s under Reagan we were still involved in a Cold War. Muslim terrorism was regarded as a Middle East issue. Under Clinton we did have the ’93 WTC bombing but who knew the extent of this network or event the existence of a network set up to destroy the USA?
    All events up until 9/11 were out of context to the current argument. After 9/11 we were at war with radical Islamists. 
    The Richard Reid show bomber was only about 2 months after 9/11 – we didn’t have a Patriot Act or a Department of Homeland Security yet. There are many things Bush did that he should not have done like release terrorist to Yemen.
    Obama has had the benefit of now decades of knowledge and experience. The difference is that he tossed it aside because HE knows better and HIS presence will solve everything. 
    So here we are and his people bungled the looms bomber by giving him Miranda rights and have been forced to back down from their show trial in Manhattan of KSM et al.
    There is a solid history of military tribunals and its use with enemies of war. I agree that both Bush and Obama bungled the use of them. They should apply to ALL enemy combatants – whether they are foreigners or U.S. citizens (treason).
    KSM is an enemy of war who was captured in Pakistan. He committed war crimes – not just murder. The incompetent handling of this mess shows that Obama is ignorant of the law or they wanted a show trial to blame Bush but it backfired.
    Abdulmutallab is no different than KSM and has no right being anywhere but in a military prison awaiting trial by a military tribunal. He is no different than the Nazis saboteurs who came ashore on Long Island during World War II and were tried before a military tribunal.
    I see you only used the irrelevant example of McVeigh. The trial of the Blind Sheik is a more relevant example. You should review what actually happened with the trial of the Blind Sheik over a period of 9 months. Do you recall the fatwa he issued which bin Laden referred to following 9/11? This is about the law and responsible behavior.

  • Hokma

    Republicans better wake up and re-read the Constitution.
    Republicans know the Constitution – Obama does not or if he does, he recklessly abuses it.
    The real issue here continues to be the framing of the war we are in which has never been intelligently defined. Bush called it a war on terror. You can’t have a war on a tactic. Obama ignores the facts and chooses to call it an “overseas contingency operation” or more recently a war on terror but only in regard to Al Qaeda.
    This is a long term war against radical Islam and needs to be framed and acted upon that way.

  • AC

    Jeebus Hokma, what is your problem this morning?  Your reading of the Constitutional protections by inserting your words and therefore changing it’s meaning is ridiculous and childish.  Grow up!

  • DeeLee

    The question is: Should he be tried as an enemy combatant under military law or as a criminal civil law?

    If you would like a quick history of what the end results could be, look up the trial of Kampfgruppe (Joachim) Peiper, an SS office responsible for the cold blooded massacre of over 360 american prisoners of war.
    He and 74 others had their trials downgraded from military to civilian trial.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Peiper

    The mere fact that Obama and Holder have said that he will be tried and FOUND GUILTY is enough for an appeal and mistrial already.

  • thinker

    So this is the answer — call the terrorist’s family and ask them to get him to cooperate?  Do you know how silly you sound.  And do you even want to know what the parent’s were promised before they agreed to speak to their son on our behalf.  Now there is even talk of a plea bargain. 

  • thinker

    Plus there is the question of whether he can get a fair trial in America given the media coverage of those statments and of 911 itself.  The appeals, motions and habeas petitions will go on for years.

  • lark

    I love it that you elected Bush and Obama because they are ignorant and uneducated. Why do I love it? Because since they are ignorant and uneducated and mispronounce a bunch of words and still made it to the presidency then it means I have a chance too.

  • AC

    lark, now your making cents.

  • lark

    Oops, that was suppose to be in the other thread.

  • Hokma

    Get an education idiot and if you are going to come at me come with facts.

  • AC

    I take it back.

  • Docelder

    I think the lesson here is that the media can elect anybody to be President… anybody.

  • AC

    Hokma, your beyond being helped.  Go ahead insert your own words into the Constitution–you’re just to intelectual for me.  You win!

  • AC

    Well put Docelder.

  • Hokma

    Hey genius I am still waiting to find out what words I inserted to change the meaning.
    You made a statement, now back it up.

  • Hokma

    There is a very long history and tradition of military tribunals used during war time by the United States. The case that the Bush Administration was building was based on the military tribunals FDR ordered for Nazi sabateours:
    http://www.historytoday.com/MainArticle.aspx?m=18190&amid=18190

  • Hokma

    “the supreme court (a conservative supreme court) has already ruled against aspects of the military tribunals.”

    Point of clarification. The SCOTUS did not rule against militay tribunals in general. It had to do specifically with some of the detainees, particularly bin-Laden’s driver. It was more about procedure and not the use in general.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201530,00.html

    There is a very long history and tradition in the use of military tribunals with the standard being by FDR in the case of some Nazi sabateours who were eventually executed. I believe that Rumsfeld and Cheney tried taking a shortcut (big suprise there).

  • AC

    Read your own posts.  CITIZEN this CITIZEN that’s all you’ve been spouting in recent memory.  The preamble to the Constitution means what’s written there not what HOKMA THE HOPELESS wants it to be.
    Citizen’s arrest,  Citizen’s arrest.

    Show me/us where any competent authority defines “people” as “citizen” and I’ll admit your a genius–lacking that, I suggest you change your meds.
    What invective are you now going to throw my way? Childish.

  • AC

    That article is neither a legal brief nor written by a  historian but is written by a newspaper correspondent–hardly a competent authority whose had no peer review.  Moreover to cite the Bush Cabal whose lawbreaking is monumental is also a joke.

  • FLDemFem

    I never supported Bush or his policies. I think the Patriot Act is tantamount to treason. It is a flagrant violation of the Constitution. The fact that Congress passed it shows just how cowardly they were, and are. No one had the balls to stand up and say “NO, THIS IS UN-AMERICAN!!”

  • FLDemFem

    Guest, We all know Obama is a liar. Why don’t you???

  • FLDemFem

    They lied about the children being orphans and tried to get them across the border without the proper passports or permissions. They are either too stupid to be allowed to be in charge of children, or they are criminals. Good Samaritan doesn’t enter into it. They were wrong to do what they did, and now they are trying to get out of the consequences of their own stupidity. Bible quoting, wailing and whining aren’t going to change the facts. The facts are they removed children illegally and tried to cross the border with them. They got caught. Now they are in jail, because they committed a crime.

  • ~~JustMe~~

    yes just run on “Hope & Change” be a little bit bronzed, walk on water, be for issues before you are against them, blame G Bush each day make sure Wed night is party night and Friday is date night and you’ll have it down pat. This leads to  the shambles we see in front of us! There seems to be one person who fits into this obscure category… God help us all.

  • FLDemFem

    Hokma, the only place in the Constitution it says “citizen” is where the requirements for office and voting are stated. Everywhere else it says “persons” or “people”. The Constitution protects all persons on US sovereign territory, including our foreign embassies, military bases, and other territorial venues. It’s not hard to grasp if you try.

  • FLDemFem

    The US is not an occupied territory, as Germany was after the war. Nor is it under martial law, as Germany was for a time after the war. The policy implemented by FDR is irrelevant to our current situation.

  • FLDemFem

    DeeLee, In my opinion, we should try him as a hijacker. He did try to prevent the plane from reaching its destination, which is one of the definitions of hijacking. And after the hijackings back in the 60′s and 70′s, we have the laws in place to do it with, legally.

  • Hokma

    Sorry to strongly disagree.

    If you study the writings of some of the founding fathers as well as scholars, the preamble is what directs to “we the people” and “to ourselves” – not anyone not part of the United States.

    The fact that we grant our rights to people outside the U.S. was based on loose interpretations and the willingness of Americans to allow that. Because of the passage of time and precedent, it has become settled law (diplomats, people with visas) - but when it concerns war. In that case the Bush and Obama administration have broken with history and tradition.

  • Hokma

    That is about the most unintellegible response.

    Where did I say it said “citizen” in the Constituton idiot. I quoted exactly two passages in the Constutution.

    Take some time and read what founding fathers intended to do with document and whom it was for. Open a book and read. 

  • elaine

    Larry, please excuse the off topic but would appreciate your feed back on this story: “China’s Control Over Rare Minerals Troubles Pentagon” By Richard Sammon @Kiplinger, how serious is this problem?

  • Hokma

    AC – If you don’t have an intelligent remark, then save it. I’m not even sure how to address such a inane remark.

  • Hokma

    FDF – FDR was dead before Germany became an occupied terrority. His decision to have a military tribunal for those Nazi s who landed in New York was during the war and is perfectly relevant to our current situation.

  • FLDemFem

    The writings of the Founding Fathers are not the Constitution. If they had wanted to define persons as citizens in the Constitution, they had ample opportunity to do so. They didn’t.

  • FLDemFem

    The Nazis who landed in NY during the war were members of the German armed forces, out of uniform and therefore subject to arrest as spies. Entirely different legal premise.

  • Hokma

    So who wrote the Constitution if not the founding fathers? Their use of language and words were more profound than you are using.

    The preamble states why they are creating the document (Constitution) and what it si intended to do. It may be hard to grasp but “we the people”  and “to ourselves” is who in your mind? 

  • Hokma

    FDF – it’s precisely the case today. What uniform was the underwear bomber wearing? Where did he land? What was his intent? You just confirmed the case.

  • Hokma

    FDF – the problem was that radical Islam was at war with us and we did not recognize it until 9/11.

    These are foreign enemies who according to our traditions should be enemy combatants if found guilty of war crimes should be executed by a military tribunal.

    It is worth reading about the nine months of the trial of the Blind Shiek – how that trial became a show trial and a platform for people around the world to hear his beliefs – and how it gave him a platform to issue a fatwa against the U.S. that bin Laden referred to after the 9/11 attack.

  • Doc99

    Lady Qaeda Trial: Her Circle of Boston Friends and How We Blew It.

    http://www.debbieschlussel.com/16685/the-real-scoop-on-lady-qaeda-aafia-siddiqi-her-circle-of-boston-friends/

    The real insight:  Siddiqui’s conviction for shooting at U.S. soldiers after they caught her in Afghanistan (with chemicals, a dirty bomb recipe, plans to blow up U.S. gas stations and major New York sites) is really not the story here.  The story is Aafia Siddiqui’s part in the early stages of Al-Qaeda around the world, as it was formed by a close circle of friends, who were mostly Muslim students in Boston here on visas in the late 1980s and early to mid-’90s.  One of those students, one of those friends, was Aafia Siddiqui, who would later become Al-Qaeda’s designated master terrorist in the U.S., until she was caught in Afghanistan.  It’s the story of how America dropped the ball on the inchoate Al-Qaeda world leadership concentrated amongst a few Muslim visa holders concentrated in a major American city.  And it’s the story of how America let those people leave the country and did nothing to stop them, even the one they caught after 9/11 and willingly gave up to the Syrians.
    That’s the real story behind Aafia Siddiqui that you didn’t hear, amidst the hubbub about her shrieks against Jewish jurors and judges, and the Israelis.  But I’m telling the Cliff’s Notes, er . . . “Debbie’s Notes” version of that frightening story here.
    It was the late 1980s. Bassam Ahmad Kanj a/k/a Abu A’isha, Nabil Al-Marabh, Raed Hijazi, and Mohamad Kamal Elzahabi fought together as part of Al-Qaeda forces in Afghanistan.  At that time, Kanj, as I’ve written, also shared a house in Pakistan with:

    *  Rabih Haddad–founder of American Al-Qaeda front-group, Global Relief Foundation (he later lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan before being deported, and sources say Siddiqui had immediate relatives living there, too);
    Mohammed Al-Churbaji a/k/a “Abu Salim”–co-founder and #2 in American Al-Qaeda front-group, Global Relief Foundation (who now lives in Ann Arbor, Michigan, as he fights deportation–his son, Salim, was an Obama fundraiser, and he has several terrorist anchor babies with U.S. citizenship).  He engaged in a sham marriage and was deported, but apparently paid off a U.S. official, “Sam Libby,” and got back into the U.S. where he married a second wife, Denise a/k/a “Um Salim”);
    * Abu Rawdha–a leading mujahideen fighter killed fighting in Afghanistan in 1991 or ‘92;  and
    * Abu Amatallah–another Islamic terrorist.
    Living nearby was Sheikh Abdullah Azzam (Osama Bin Laden’s spiritual guru, with whom Bin Laden founded the forerunner to Al-Qaeda, MAK–Maktab Al-Khidamat), and others who were part of the nucleus of the original Qaeda.
    All of these people prayed at the same Karachi mosque along with Bin Laden.  Siddiqui and her family also lived in the area, and they reportedly assigned her to study germ weapons at MIT.  Yup, we trained her and did their bidding.

    Read the whole thing …

    As an Israeli friend told me, the US is still not serious when it comes to terrorism.

  • FLDemFem

    The word people is not defined as citizen, neither is ourselves. If the Founding Fathers had wanted to define either people or ourselves as citizens, they would have done so in the body of the Constitution. Instead, they were careful not to do so and only used the word citizen to define the qualifications for voting and holding office. The Constitution is important in what it doesn’t say as what it actually says. What the Founders left out or did not define is as important as what they did include and define.

  • FLDemFem

    The word people is not defined as citizen, neither is ourselves. If the Founding Fathers had wanted to define either people or ourselves as citizens, they would have done so in the body of the Constitution. Instead, they were careful not to do so and only used the word citizen to define the qualifications for voting and holding office. The Constitution is as deliberate in what it doesn’t say as it is in what it actually says. What the Founders left out or did not define is as important as what they did include and define.

  • FLDemFem

    The Undiebomber, or Knickerbomber as I prefer to call him, is not a member of any country’s armed forces. Therefore, he never had a uniform to be out of. Therefore, he does not fit the definition that was applied in WWII by FDR for the German saboteurs, who were members of a national armed force and out of the uniform they would ordinarily wear as such.

  • FLDemFem

    I am not saying we should give them a show trial, but we must give them a fair one. And that does not include having the president and the AG saying the Knickerbomber would be found guilty and executed.

  • EllenD

    Thank you again Larry for reminding everyone what went on in the 80′s while America slept.
    Every country has laws. Anyone going to a country is subject to its laws. What is there to understand?
    Is there something in the water these days that makes us discuss suspending our legal system?

  • Hokma

    One more time – who does “we the people” and “to ourselves” refer to?

  • Hokma

    A military tribunal is a fair trial for enemy combatants who are not Americans.

  • Hokma

    “what went on in the 80′s while America slept”

    Who slept? Ever hear of the Cold War?

    As far as our legal system, there is a very long history and system regarding foreign enemy combatants during a war to be tried in military tribunals: from George Washington to Lincoln to FDR.

    There is no legal baasis for bringing foreign enemy combatants of war into our civilian courts except to give Obama/Holder a platform for a show trial. These people are entitled to certian rights but under military commission rules. Why do you think they are backing off so much now?

  • FLDemFem

    Any person on US sovereign territory.

  • Hokma

    I was in Israel the day after the Christmas bomber and after Napolitano made her idiot remark that everything went as planned. Israelis were mocking the administration. Israelis have been living with radical muslim terrorism for their entire history and know you cannot treat it just as a police action or the terrorists as common criminals.

    Unfortunately, it may have to take another major event like 9/11 for Americans to clearly understand that we are at war and that as idiotic as the underwear bomber seems – he is this war’s version of a fully armed soldier.

  • Hokma

    Wrong answer  and completely unsupportable. We the people referred to the people who were part of the 13 states and not foreigners.

  • Diana L. C.

    I think people are individuals always.  When the parents tried to stop him from coming in the first place, I think we can trust the parents a litle.  I am willing to guess this man is not entirely all there. 

  • Jazzman

    “Bond was hyperventilating over their reckless handling of national security in order to score political points. ”

    I am hyperventilating over both parties playing politics with our national security. Bond was playing the game and he plays it welll…. We do not know exactly what was actually said in committee. Then again how come Bond  was not hyperventilating over some of the Bush policies? Its all just freaking political game to thse guys………….just  bull-sheet-rock!

  • Jazzman

    “Republicans know the Constitution – Obama does not or if he does, he recklessly abuses it.”

    Abuses it eh? And Bush did not? And you want to define the war eh? Then get Congress to DECLARE WAR! Then it will be actually defined….by law…. Otherwise your just playing head games….

  • Jazzman

    Your no dope and your comments on this subject are really beneath your intelligence. German spy’s are associated with a State Nation and especially during time of a  “declared war” “can” fall under a military tribunal but not necessarily so either. FDR set this tribunal up along with Churchill and Stalin. Not by himself. Terrorist are nothing more than criminals and we have a very long history using our legal system to bring these guys to justice.

    As far as Obama’s Administration spouting their mouths off…well I have a huge problem with that, as I do with the Republicans playing their head games….

    That should piss everyone off……

  • FLDemFem

    So anyone who doesn’t live in one of the original 13 colonies is not included??

  • Strawberry….

    God I’ve missed you Larry. 

  • Jazzman

    Hokma

    Your no dope and your comments on this subject are really beneath your intelligence. German spy’s were associated with a State Nation “Germany” and especially during time of a  “declared war” “can” fall under a military tribunal and in that case the tribunal was used to shield the governments chief investigators and sentencing decisions.

    Terrorist do not fall under a nation sates “normally” and its very hard to classify them as state actors. Even in the case of PANAM 103 with a tie to Lybia the trial was a criminal one.

    I will also add that FDR set the war crimes tribunal up along with Churchill and Stalin. Not by himself. Terrorist are nothing more than criminals and we have a very long history using our legal system to bring these guys to justice.  
     
    As far as Obama’s Administration spouting their mouths off…well I have a huge problem with that, as I do with the Republicans playing their head games…. 
     
    That should piss everyone off……

  • Hokma

    The United States has formally declared war against foreign nations five separate times: War of 1812, Mexican American War, Spanish American War, World War I, and World War II.
    There was no formal declaration of war when it came to Vietnam, Persian Gulf War, War in Afghanistan, and the War in Iraq. These are congressionally authorized conflicts under the War Powers Resolution, which, frankly, has been abused because it was intended for limited conflicts – not long extended wars.
    A major part of the problem through Bush and Obama is their inability to frame what is a borderless war against radical Muslim groups. With Bush it was because they were afraid to offend their oil buddies. With Obama its because he doesn’t want to offend his Muslim brethren.

  • Jazzman

    “A major part of the problem through Bush and Obama is their inability to frame what is a borderless war against radical Muslim groups. With Bush it was because they were afraid to offend their oil buddies. With Obama its because he doesn’t want to offend his Muslim brethren.”….

    Yeah lets forget about no precedence in either US Law or International Law…. Just who wants to protect their buddies…..

  • Hokma

    FDR authorized the tribunals on his own. Stalin and Churchill had nothing to do with it. Maybe you are thinking of the Nuremberg trials.

    The war we are fighting now is a war but not a conventional war. It is not against a nation state, but it is as much a war as any other, just different weapons, no uniforms, and civilian battlefields.

    More importantly they delcared on us a long time ago. We chose to ignore it until September 11. In the years since we have forgotten that they are at war with us. 

    According to polls now, a majority of Americans believe that these terrorists do not deserve Miranda Rights or should be tried in civilian courts.

  • Jazzman

    “he mere fact that Obama and Holder have said that he will be tried and FOUND GUILTY is enough for an appeal and mistrial already.”

    WRONG… Neither said it some in the administration did that and would not be enough for a mis-trial. Getting a fair trial? Now you got something. None of them would in either a military or civil setting… So my bet is they cop a plea and serve life…. making things easier as well….

  • ciic
  • Jazzman

    “These are foreign enemies who according to our traditions should be enemy combatants if found guilty of war crimes should be executed by a military tribunal.”

    According to our traditions? Eh which traditons are those?

  • Jazzman

    “These are foreign enemies who according to our traditions should be enemy combatants if found guilty of war crimes should be executed by a military tribunal.” 
     
    According to our traditions? Eh which traditons are those?

  • AC

    “FDR authorized the tribunals on his own”
    Shure?

  • Guest

    “FDR authorized the tribunals on his own.”
    Open mouth insert foot!

  • AC

    “FDR authorized the [Nuremberg] tribunals on his own. Stalin and Churchill had nothing to do with it.”
    Another nonsense statement by our resident “I know more than the whole damn universe”

  • DB

    Larry, your igno-freak liberal roots are showing again. Dick Cheney may have engaged in some speculation that Saddam was behind 9-11. That’s because lots of old hands at CIA and FBI were convinced that Saddam was behind the February, 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Cheney looked into a lot of theories, and frankly, he should have. That’s his job. The fact remains that when George Bush gave the SOTU speech in 2002, he did in fact say, we have no evidence that Saddam was behind the 9-11 attacks.” Sorry, bud. It’s just a fact. The Bush administration NEVER said that Saddam was behind 9-11. This is a matter of record, so go read it and weep. And while you’re at it, please stay the hell away from us Tea Party folks. When we take out Obama and your fellow Democratic-Trotskyite friends in Congress we are going to remember your kow-towing to the Let’s-Spend-Ourselves-Dead types like your hero Hillary Clinton, the second most Stalinist politician from Illinois. 8-)

  • EllenD

    Wow. Threats. Sure makes the Tea Party folks appealing to me (not).

  • EllenD

    Look, the 80 incidents Larry has referred to are terrorist attacks and attempted attacks against Americans. It has nothing to do with the Cold War.

    There is no military attacking us, so the courst are the appropriate venue.

  • EllenD

    oops courts.

  • Hokma

    You have got to be kidding??!!! Do you honestly believe that Thomas Jefferson et al were thinking of Italians or French when they were wiritng this? Sorry, I’m not answering this anymore.

  • Hokma

    Name the US Law that is being violated or stifle. What International Law is being broken?

    If you read (ie library books) anything from Samuel Huntington to any credible book on the jihad against the west you might have a substantive answer. You would also know that we are at war and it is reckless and irresponsible to hide behind the effort to treat this as a police criminal action.

  • Hokma

    “According to our traditions? Eh which traditons are those?”

    I’m not going to provide a history lesson here. If youa re not curious or intelligent enough to go to the library and read then forget it. This is information that is readily available.

  • Hokma

    AC – I was refering to the statement made by Jazzman without trying to insult. You, on the other hand, probably never heard of a library card and evidently since you have nothing substantive to ever contribute has no more than a 3rd grade education. You may want to try one of those matchbook schools to get an education. Frankly I know first graders who say more intelligent things than you. Now go away.

  • Hokma

    Larry presented a case that is historically out of context. The focus during the 1980′s and prior was on the Cold War (Larry seemed to leave that out). This was not even a major focus in post-Cold War until 9/11. That is a fact documented by the 9/11 Commission.

    Should we have been paying more attention to radical Islam prior to 9/11 and for decades – yes. But who knew? Should we have assumed the world was round before Columbus set out for America? No – but who knew?

  • AC

    Hokma, that’s all you do, is insult people.  When they ask you to back up what you write you immediately begin the ad hominem  in support of your logical fallacies.  You say that you were not trying to insult Jazzman but you write:
    “I’m not going to provide a history lesson here. If youa re not curious or intelligent enough to go to the library and read then forget it. This is information that is readily available.” 
    I won’t even get into all the other invectives you spew when someone disagrees with you. But why don’t you defend this other ridiculous statement you made:
    “FDR authorized the tribunals on his own. Stalin and Churchill had nothing to do with it. Maybe you are thinking of the Nuremberg trials.”

  • mountainaires

    “lots of old hands at CIA and FBI were convinced that Saddam was behind the February, 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. ”

    This is just laughable. The CIA/FBI knew who was behind the 1993 WTC Bombing. They didn’t think it was Saddam Hussein. 

  • mountainaires
  • Hokma

    Actually I come with information and facts. I never comment on something I do not know about.
    You, on the other hand just insult and bloviate and have no orginal thoughts of your onw.
    The library open at 10 AM. Be there.

  • Hokma

    “It is a flagrant violation of the Constitution”

    When you make as ignorant a statement as this, then back it up with facts.

    I have zero tolerance for anyone who learned nothing from 9/11 and uses it as a political punchline. It is precisely attitudes like yours which cause 9/11. If you already have not, read the 9/11 Commission report, please.

  • Hokma

    Guest:

    “they’re weak, scared”

    Clearly you are not terribly well educated and are one of those clueless left wing warriors who are too scared to confront enemies.

    Maybe if you were there in Manhattan that day you would not be as amazingly ignorant as you are today.

    I have zero tolerance for 9/11 surrender monkeys who use the events as a political punchline to suit their socialist ends.

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