Rev. James Meeks Takes on the New Slave Masters

It warms my heart to see black leaders come to their own opinions that are separate and distinct from Obama’s opinions. It gives me hope. Hope for us all.

I am not sure Meeks and I would agree on everything, but the public education system we have in place in Chicago and every other major city just does not work. What is keeping it from working? Government and the Teachers Union. It is a perpetual system that accepts mediocrity.

Charter Schools in New York incredibly successful so they want to expand them but who is in the way? The teacher’s union.

Public school systems need to create competition – not just among students – but among administrators and teachers. You do not do it by mandating that a student must go to a certain school.

  Do you salute Rev Meeks for speaking his mind on Homosexuality?

  Meeks is the Homophobe that The Media paints Sarah Palin to be.

 Meeks is the one with Halloween Haunted House that featured Gay Men with AIDS being tortured in Hell.
  Here’s the deal… I do not want my tax money going into School Vouchers which will then be used at Meek’s bullshit, For Profit Charter School where Homophobic thought will be taught. 
  If Meeks and his Ilk want to set up a school and play Teacher, let them do it on their dime.

The difference between great leaders like Martin Luther King and political hacks like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson is that the former focused on the dignity of the individual whereas the later focuses on group identity grievances.  The embrace by the Democratic Party of the identity politics of black grievances is nothing more than establishment of a guaranteed voting block dependent of the largess of the party.

Group identity politics accomplishes nothing more than to perpetuate the grievances of the group.  If such grievances were ever eliminated, the group leaders, i.e., Sharpton, Jackson and many Democratic mayors of cities with substantial black populations, are quickly out of a job.

My black friends, whether in my closest inner circle of friends or professional business acquaintances, are all in agreement for it is from them that I have been told that the Sharpton’s and Jackson’s of the world through feeding upon white guilt do more to perpetuate the underclass of the black population in our society.  It was King when in Memphis told the striking garbage workers “I am a man” not I am a black man.

Good…and you can continue to pour your money down the drain known a urban public education. 

Ok, I have no problem with Gays at all, but the image of this made me laugh “Gay Men with AIDS being tortured in Hell.”

Mel Brooks or South Park could have fun with that. If it looks like torture to me, would it be pleasure for them? If they enjoyed being tortured, would it really be heaven?

The problem I have with vouchers is that they will likely only benefit parents that can afford to send their kids to private school in the first place.

Vouchers are not going to totally cover the cost of private school. The low income schoold district pupils that vouchers are intended to help, will never be able to use them.

What a racist. 

Public employees, like teachers, have certain due process rights.  That means, management cannot fire them without due process.  Under existing state and federal laws, fired employees wanting to contest dismissals may resort to the courts, assuming all expenses.  However, employees represented by unions can contest dismissals as violations of the ‘duplicate’ due process provisions in the collective bargaining agreement; and are represented by the union, free of charges in addition to union dues (or, in some instances, ‘agency fees’). 

Unions (and the collective bargaining agreements they are able to negotiate with management) do not mandate retention of unqualified teachers; poor management does. 
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/02/23/boston_gets_an_f_in_teacher_appraisals/

To Homophobes saying “gay men with AIDS” is repeating yourself.

no matter how much “the system” sucks, the real problem is the parents.  i know that nobody wants to hear that, and of course no politician is going to say it, but it’s the truth.

You are wrong. These vouchers are restricted to use by low income families. The fact is rampant evidence has shown that education at a number of private institutions can be had for far less than what it costs on a per student basis in the public schools.

It is a net save and a higher graduation rate….and the inner city families are screaming for them.   

“We don’t have slave masters,” he said. “We got mayors. But they still the same white people

Oh crap!
Sorry to be unladylike but Mayors haven’t been all white people for a long time. After that, I’m not interested in what he has to say.

Too bad because you missed my statement, 

Well, it is not just white mayors, but it is now this Presidency which has also fallen in line with the Democratic Party establishment to curtail the use of vouchers.
I wonder if Obama is still seeking the reverend for counsel.

Thank you jbjd.

Unions (and the collective bargaining agreements they are able to negotiate with management) do not mandate retention of unqualified teachers; poor management does.  

I was a college level teacher for a while. The union wasn’t the problem. The problem was the chickenshit administration. (I’m really on a roll today) They were the best example I have ever seen of the Peter Principle – people rising to their level of incompetence.
If a teacher was a lousy teacher they wouldn’t fire him – they’d put him in administration. Then he’d put the next lousy teacher in, and so on and so on. And you wonder why it’s all such a mess?

I am african american and it is about time that blacks realize why so many of us are still in poverty.  Especially when the democratic black politicians have been representing the poorest areas in the states and have done nothing vastly visible to improve the status of those they represent.  I am not talking about hand-outs, I am  talking about making equal education available to all, no matter where they live.  I am talking about putting funds to improve schools education and infrastructures.  The social programs of hand-outs do nothing to development creativity or motivation to promote responsible people to empower them to raise themselves up out of poverty. All these political representatives do continually is use the blacks and hispanics to keep them in office to pad their bank accounts.   I call it upgraded slavery and we have no one to blame but ourselves. 

Cynthia, 

Thanks for sharing your sentiments. 

It sounds to me like you would agree with Reverend Meeks for taking on the establishment rather than merely going along for the ride and milking the system. 

Urban graduation rates of 50% (and plenty of social graduations within that number) are a recipe for continued disaster for our cities and the nation. 

No doubt parents of the kids have to take enormous responsibilities but the schools are huge failures as well. 

 I need a voucher to upgrade my general standard of living . I would like to move to the good side of town .

Doesn’t work that way, but nice try. 

I wish people weighing in on the issue of vouchers did their research, first.

1.  Do measurable student outcomes in schools accepting vouchers, support the use of vouchers?
Hardly.  http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20094050/

2.  Can voucher programs benefit all students otherwise legally entitled to a public education, for example, children diagnosed with special needs?
Nope.  http://www.ncd.gov/newsroom/publications/2003/vouchers.htm

3. Are public schools failing our students because teacher unions manadate retention of poor teachers?  Nope.  (See previous comment.)

Our state Constitutions entitles its citizens to a public (free) education.  (Phew!)

I wish people weighing in on the issue of school vouchers did their homework, first.  
 
1.  Do measurable student outcomes in schools accepting vouchers, support the use of vouchers?  
Hardly.  http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20094050/  
 
 
2.  Can all students legally entitled to a public education, for example, children diagnosed with special needs, equally participate in voucher programs?  
Nope.  http://www.ncd.gov/newsroom/publications/2003/vouchers.htm  
 
3. Are public schools failing our students because teacher unions manadate retention of poor teachers?  Not at all.  (See previous comment.)  
 
Our state Constitutions entitles its citizens to a public (free) education.  (Phew!)

I wish people weighing in on the issue of school vouchers did their homework, first.    
   
1.  Do measurable student outcomes in schools accepting vouchers, support the use of vouchers?    
Hardly.  http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20094050/    
   
   
2.  Can all students legally entitled to a public education, for example, children diagnosed with special needs, equally participate in voucher programs?    
Nope.  http://www.ncd.gov/newsroom/publications/2003/vouchers.htm    
   
3. Are public schools failing our students because teacher unions manadate retention of poor teachers?  Not at all.  (See previous comment.)    
   
Our state Constitution entitles its citizens to a public (free) education.  (Phew!)

   http://www.lookedhardy.com


top edhardy  outwear

Not so simple.  If parents ‘come to school’ unprepared to have their children learn then, we need to ‘teach’ the parent, too.  It seems Draconian to fault parents who cannot read, write, or speak English, for example, for not helping their children with homework.  Instead, we could teach them, too.  Where this inclusive model has been tried, it works. http://www.boston.k12.ma.us/adulted/alc.html

Sure, so the voucher will pay for a prep school education? It won’t even pay for “Our Lady Star of the Sea” Catholic School.

The difference has to be made up by the parents, and if they don’t have the means, off to public school you go.

Private schools are not going to be able to run solely on vouchers. If they do, there will not be much educating going on.

The world is awash with failures of Charter Schools. They do no better than public schools and usually much, much worse.

And, like Chelsea said “I do not want my tax money going into School Vouchers which will then be used at Meek’s bullshit” or any other bullshit for that matter.

…and you can take our current ranking as 18th in the world in terms of secondary school scores to the bank, along with the 50% urban graduation rate. How are those working for you?

Go ahead and leave these kids rotting in failing schools.

I prefer to say that they deserve a chance at something better.

Congrats!!   

Special needs kids can do exceptionally well in Public School, if they have the right special help.

My 13 year old niece has severe Cerebral Palsy. She has almost zero motor function. But, she has an aid that helps her in the same classes as “normal” kids. She goes to the same suburban public school system I went to and is doing exceptionally well.

I am sure that because she has been with and treated like all the other kids her entire life, her self esteem has not suffered. She is really quite a remarkable kid.

That solution will not work for all kids with special needs, but carting all of them into special needs schools or classes is not the solution either. Vouchers or not.

Good…you can continue to pour your tax dollars down the drain of the urban schools too. Nice. 

These kids thank you for ….not giving them a chance. 

Congrats!!

I agree with you here. Many of the special needs programs in select public schools are fabulous. 

But I ask you, would you want to send your kids into many of the Boston Public Schools?

And you think they will get that chance being educated by people like Meeks?

If their public schools are failing them it’s because their community organizers, leaders and elected officials are failures. Giving money to the same people to run a “private school” is not going to give you a better result.

We could start with abolishing the districting rules in the public school system.  Because of districting, students are required to go to school where they live.  If it is a lousy school, parents cannot enroll their child in another public school which might be better, because of districting. If parents were issued vouchers for their children good at any public school, then the poor schools will get identified quickly because of less enrollment.  Then the problems are more quickly identified and perhaps addressed.  Because parents would rather send their children in their neighborhood, if only they can be sure their children will get educated.  Not all parents are this motivated.  But for those who are willing to sacrifice by driving their children farther, they should be given this opportunity.

In a way, this districting business is simply an extension of discrimination by class–keeping students from poor neighborhoods away from the affluent neighborhoods; keeping the vicious cycle going.

You don’t know how these work do you? The vouchers are provided for the students to attend existing and successful private schools, including parochial schools.

Catholic high schools in inner cities have a far better graduation rate than public schools at a much lower per student cost. More kids would love to attend those schools.

….but, nope….no vouchers and no chance so the establishment and unions can continue to milk it.

As a member of a family with five teachers in it, it is those kids with parents who are INVOLVED that either do well academically or are not as much of behavior problems. 

And there are kids who desperately need help but the parents won’t let the big bad ol’ system actually do there jobs and help the kids. 

Throwing money at the problem doesn’t fix it. 

And my number one problem with the claims of private or voucher schools working so much better than normal public schools (despite evidence to the contrary) is this: private schools and voucher programs can KICK OUT the problem kids. So OF COURSE it’s going to appear better in those special cases, because the admin have control over who gets in and gets kicked out. Whereas the public school next door has to take everybody…and then has to teach to the lowest common denominator to satisfy some stupid NCLB legislation…

Actually Atlantic Monthly had an article a couple years ago about a study done around Memphis, after that city shut down the projects and moved those people to the ‘burbs. Guess what? Yup, crime spiked in those new areas. Not so much from those people directly, but from their family and friends who brought the crime with them. 

Cosby is right that personal and parental responsibility has to come first.

LD wrote, “But I ask you, would you want to send your kids into many of the Boston Public Schools?”

Say what?

Boston Public Schools Wins Broad Prize for Urban Education
http://www.cityofboston.gov/news/default.aspx?id=3288

For 1,000 Boston students, a working vacation was OK
http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2010/02/20/for_1000_boston_students__a_working_vacation_was_ok/

I’m from Boston….do you really want to go here? 

http://www.illinoispolicy.org/uploads/media/mulitmedia/jerry/Meeks%20WGN.mp3

Are you familiar with Star Parker’s work?

check out her website: Uncle Sam’s Plantation.

Catholic and private schools often have funds available to make up the shortfall.

http://www.gesuschool.org/ The Gesu school in North Philadelphia does not turn away students on the basis of inability to pay. This school is located in the heart of the ghetto, and has provided an oasis of education and hope to the parents and extended family members of the children attending.

One has to conclude that the voucher naysayers have not had firsthand experience with the nightmare that this nation’s urban public school system too often represents. Larry, I commend you for bringing this important issue to this board.

To your point about throwing tax dollars down the drain, add to that the tax dollars that will be used to support failed students when they enter the prison system, courtesy of an “education” program that is virtually in shambles.

This isn’t about just Obama — it is about the entire Democratic Party establishment, which has been strongly against vouchers (and protective of the teachers’ unions) for generations. I don’t know this for sure, but I’m pretty confident that if you go look up Senator Clinton’s campaign positions, she would have been just as strongly against vouchers.

Having said that: Obama and the Democrats are wrong on this issue, and have been for a long time.  

Public schools push out and expel troubling students.  Every district in every state has “programs” for non-performing and troubling students; schools with ineffective administrations only keep such students in classes to maintain their budget allocations and to avoid the paperwork and diligence to move them.  The problem in inner city schools is how many of these students there are.  Charters and vouchers are no magic bullet.  My biggest concern with both of them in inner city areas is how politicians, churches and activist organizations use either or both to line their own pockets and hire their relatives—not to help students succeed in a meaningful way.

Ellen–You are so right. Most public school principals that I taught under  could not function in a classroom. And of course the school superintendent was usually a buffoon. Not always. but too often. I quit teaching when teachers unions were really taking off. I never joined. I thought it sounded like a stupid idea, and had nothing to do with teaching children. And I was a Democrat!

Larry I have been very involved with charter schools in inner city urban areas (e.g. LA/Compton).  I have seen it up close and personal and I am sorry to say that too many charters in some of these inner-city areas have been initiated by community organizations and some church groups with lots of false hope and pure hype. They have been an avenue to support salaries and benefits that have almost nothing to do with students learning. The good thing about the charter world is that if you fail, you have to close your doors. I am all for alternatives and competition to the public monopoly—just as I think there should be public competition to the private monopolies in health care.  But the key to success is quality standards and then a truly rigorous process for enforcing those standards.

You must also come to terms with the reality that few private schools have the capacity to absorb any large numbers of additional students—or want to.  You also have to come to terms with the reality that one of the reasons existing private schools can be successful is that they are not large warehouses.  If you look at educational outcomes data, private schools do not do statistically significantly better overall than public schools.  

Urban schools are not just failing AA and Hispanic students.  Our mental models for secondary education are deeply rooted in 20th century industrial thinking.  They are organized in a teacher centered, top down environment that is totally irrelevant to digital natives or to the learning desperately needed for the 21st century.  Until we get some innovative systemic thinking I do not have much hope that alternative providers, providing the same basic product is going to push the education envelope to excellence.  Schooling as we know it is not friendly to the human brain and the innate human drive to learn; schooling is orchestrated to frustrate real learning. This reality just becomes more clear and startling in this 21st century.  The ones who really  understand this best are the students who increasingly refuse to take part in it.

Larry— I’m going to plead Bill Cosby on this one.
It’s time the black community clean up its own house and stop blaming whites for everything. I wish Rev. Meeks had not interjected the word “white” in his statement. The black culture seems stuck in the “we are victims” philosophy. Just my opinion, but I’m really tired of hearing it.
Man-up, adjust your bra, and move on.

Charter schools work and the results confirm that. They should be the model for public education – not the exception. The teachers union is doing everything they can to hinder their growth because it is not in their best interests.

The teachers union is one of the largest political special interests on the state and federal level and do plenty to line the pockets of political campaign coffers.

Public schools push out and expel troubling students. 

Not in numbers anywhere close to what private schools/programs do. The kids who are constantly disruptive are not ever kicked out of a district unless they harm themselves or someone else. 

Principals and superintendents of public schools do not have the control over there populations that the non-standard admins do. Fact. 

And it’s not so simple as the admins being ineffective or not diligent. My wife who works mostly with the best her school offers STILL has to deal with parents that threaten her, the school and the district with lawsuits if she can’t send the troubled kid to the principal’s office because he/she is a constant problem. 

And again, a lot of those programs need parental write-off/consent, believe it or not. So unless they hurt someone else, if the parent/s don’t want their kids in an appropriate setting outside of normal classroom, the kid stays. 

But yes, it’s a struggle: keep the borderline kids so your numbers are higher and you get more money (so the better kids can benefit) or ignore the better kids in an effort to rid yourself of the bad kids (which might mean less money, which doesn’t help either).

Actually, I was at a fundraiser for Hillary and she spoke in detail about education and is an advocate of charter schools.   So again, they are not identical on policy.

JbJd -
Are public schools failing our students because teacher unions manadate retention of poor teachers?  Not at all.  (See previous comment.) Our state Constitution entitles its citizens to a public (free) education.  (Phew!)

You have no evidence of your claim and there is every evidence that, particularly in low income districts, teachers stop trying – don’t motivate – and seek to only achieve adequate results.

It is the growing systems of government entitlements that are depleting our society of innovation and motivation: from teachers to students to parents.

There needs to be competition created – even in the public school system – that will foster greater motivation and achievement. For those who blame the parents, how do you overcome that or do you simply accept it as the reason for poor results?

I looked it up. She is very, very against vouchers (which is not the same as charter schools, which I strongly suspect Obama supports). Hillary is, like Obama, a mainstream Democratic politician. And like Obama, she has never gone strongly against mainstream Democratic doctrine in any major policy respect. His current health care plan is very much like what the Clintons proposed in the early 90s. This notion that Obama stands for things (politically speaking) that are markedly different than HRC is sheer fantasy. 

Governing style is another matter. I am prepared to say that I think somewhat less of Obama now than I did during the campaign. Though I continue to respect his considerable accomplishments in his first year, and have more hope than ever that we’ll get a good health care bill. 

jbjd, it’s not about parent’s who can or cannot read. It’s about parents who care enough to make their kids stay IN to school, stay OUT of trouble and to listen when somebody says their kid is or has a problem. It’s about parents who know where their kids are at, who turn off the TV/game console so the kids do their homework. 

Moreover, just reading or doing some math is only the beginning of issues facing our entire educational systems.

It’s about getting people involved and having some responsibility that their kid is utilizing everything the school has to offer.

I don’t have the link/data right at hand, but studies within the past few years have shown that public school kids do as well or better than private school kids, when socio-economic factors were removed.

A homophobe No Quarter rightly called out during the Obama campaign is now being praised and Larry Doyle’s in the comments firing back at everyone who disagrees with the homophobe or him on Charter Schools?  That’s two problems right there.
This website used to be common sense.  I really take offense to Doyle’s dismissing people who are rightly concerned that the homophobe’s getting praised. 
As the son of school teachers, I also resent the attack — and it is an attack — on America’s hard working teachers.

I just wanted to reiterate what others have said, that indeed, there are way too many disruptive students in classes now.  I am speaking as a former teacher, who gave up after being constantly harassed for being “too conservative” and expecting too much from my students.  I had over 200 students in middle school to make lesson plans for, teach, grade papers, log grades onto an online grade book, accessible by parents- this also gave them access to email you with constant complaining that you grade papers too slowly, where is my kid’s grade on this assignment and on and on….being a media specialist, I also had complete responsibility for ordering materials, processing them and maintaining the library- it simply became too much- in addition, I was taking graduate courses.  The only help I had was one parent who volunteered for 3 hours, once a week- my assistant had been taken and put into another position, to assist principal with parent background checks, as new mandates said that anyone wishing to volunteer at schools had to fill out forms, and have background checks made on them- so, I had to do everything myself.
This being said, you must say- how can this be?  Well, I was working in a private school, making a lot less $$ than public school teachers- and, the political correctness that is destroying our public schools has now begun permiating the private ones as well, even Catholic schools.  Private schools do not have unions, but the teachers still have some degree of personal input, and the students can still enjoy “holiday” activities which have sadly been taken away from public school students.  Also, American history is still taught without destructive criticism of our founding fathers.  So, you get some things and you lose others.  I have long-term subbed for public schools and know how horribly some of them have become, when it comes to discipline.  I feel that we need a lot more charter schools, magnet schools and alternative schools.  We need to get troubled students out of the classrooms and into special needs classes so teachers can actually teach, and not have to deal with discipline constantly.  I must agree that although unions provide “few” positive aspects such as legal help when needed; for the most part, they are the reason why so many lazy or bad teachers are still in the system.  When I was at a local college, waiting to take the NTE (National Teacher’s Exam) years ago, I overheard an older teacher stating that she was frustrated at having to take such an exam, and this was her third time taking it!  I was appalled, and even more so after taking the exam- it was challenging, but anyone who couldn’t pass it on the first time, should not be teaching any students!  When I was told that I was too conservative, it was because I believe in our country, and it’s institutions and laws, I have a strong moral code and ethics, I believe that punishments must be meted out for wrong-doing, and children must be held responsible for doing their own work.  I also feel that the more you expect from a student, the more you get and found this to be absolutely true!  When you expect mediocrity, that’s exactly what you get- 
Parents MUST be involved with their children as well, and this is probably the main reason that inner city schools fail- single parent families and disrupted families do not nurture and support children in the ways they need; mentoring can help, but it almost seems like a losing battle.  Children also need “good” role models- I totally support vouchers for all parents; by doing this, the public schools would HAVE to compete with private schools, parochial schools and others- then, perhaps things might begin to change a bit?  Sorry that I ranted on so much, but as you can imagine, this topic is near to my heart- and, sadly, I have run into three other “ex-teachers” recently who gave up teaching because of the political correctness and horrendous discipline problems-
Thanks so much…

Eddie, 

Just because I praise reverend Meeks for his stand on this topic does not mean I blindly accept all of his positions. 

If somebody is homophobic, I condemn them for it. Plain and simple. 

I believe I can differentiate between the two.

The fact is urban education in pour country is a disaster. This problem is a result of many factors. I am not saying vouchers will cure all the problems. I am merely saying they have had enough success and should be increased.

What’s the alternative? More of the same wasteful spending with horrendous results.

Count me out!!

Hokma, I think teachers in low income areas “stop trying” NOT because they give up on the kids per se. They give up because they can see the solutions but lack the authority or access to make it happen. Or they battle problem kids with even bigger problem parents. They have to deal with bad kids who the admin (at school or district level) don’t want to or can’t deal with. They give up because they are harassed by violent kids, have their tires slashed or worse….just because they give some loser kid a deserved failing grade. The give up because they see problem kids who happen to be good at bball get priority status by the admin (former coaches) and because they are under pressure from those same admin to give those kids passing grades because of their athletic ability. 

Many times the reason for poor academic results is from parent’s who don’t care. In Texas, many illegal/undoc families make a living in trade labor so reading isn’t a priority (big generalization yes, but you get my points). Or like west Texas where football rules all; where sports is the only perceived route out of that area. 

The competition that needs to happen is that from the parents to get their kids to compete against their environment to get good GRADES. 

To fix the problem of parents: I don’t know but to “fix” education we have to go to the CORE of WHY we teach. We can’t assume that all kids will utilize the tools schools give. Teach toward the smarter kids.  Other countries have tiered systems that have “off ramps” toward other vocational type programs. Allow the cream to rise to the top and stop trying to teach to the lowest common denominator. Some kids just aren’t smart enough. 

PizzaDriver:  I’d like to hear more of your view that parents are the real problem.  Can you elaborate on this point?

I do agree with several of the commenters here who, particularly ces’s first para. above, think parents should be more involved.  However, caring parents are often pushed out of middle schools by an insular administration who takes great offense at parents “meddling.”  We had a wide-open door policy laid down by a very competent principal at our child’s elementary school and on some days it seemed there were as many parents in school hallways and classrooms (volunteering) as there were kids in seats.  It was a real community and everyone knew everyone else’s kids.  Middle school, on the other hand, was such a nightmare (staff were surly, paranoid and defensive) that we took our child out after the first year where they attended a same-sex private school that emphasised science, math and self-direction.  I can tell any of you who thinks private schools have more latitude with “troubled” kids that money talks–loudly’; especially in these economic times. 

The topic of teacher pay is a perennial so-called cause for poor school performance, but I know our city’s teachers are very well compensated for the amount of time they actually spend in the classroom.  I can’t think of a similar job in which one gets 3-4 days off/month over the course of a 9-month period.  Granted, working with kids takes special skills and a passion for your work, but you couldn’t call it hazardous duty.  And something tells me that if our teachers and administrators were doing half the job we pay them to do, on-site parent involvement should not have to be so critical.  I know my parents spent as little time at my schools as possible (they have 6 kids).

I totally agree with the commenter who said (somewhere) that throwing money at the problem is not working.

LD, I just don’t get your obsession with vouchers. Taking money OUT of schools will not make schools better or guarantee that those who go elsewhere will succeed. We need to fix public schools not simply say they are broken.

Inner city AAs need to decide that education matters. Poor, illiterate, non-English speakers communicate this to their children all the time.  There are plenty of stories to prove it–first generation Vietnamese graduating at the top of their class; Hispanic kids in large numbers going on to college; etc. It’s time AAs insist on better education in their communities AND make sure their kids are ready for school everyday, attend school daily and do their homework. The parents need to get involved at school. Lots of working parents make time for this. There is no excuse–not poverty, not single parenthood, none.

I agree with those comments above that vouchers are not the panacea you claim. I really believe in public schools, public libraries, fire departments, police departments, etc. I also don’t believe my tax dollars should fund religious schools of any kind that vouchers would fund.

agree with the differing points above stated, but do believe the issue starts AT HOME. Perhaps what needs to be done is for any new parent to have to take a “parenting” class…they don’t need to be able to help with the complex math or with English when they themselves do not know the language, but they do need to learn to value education and pass that on to their children, they need to learn to discipline their children in a constructive way, to reward with praise good behavior and good work…and to not have more children if they can’t be there, engaged, for those they already have…the system is NOT a parent substitute.

BardFD,
 I do understand your view. I attended both public and private school. At that time public schools were pretty good and parents were in charge. The private school I attended? One of the best.

I do think parents should have a choice about where to send their children. I have to admit, due to the lack of discipline problems and smaller class size, I did well in private school. I’m the only member of my family to have attended and graduated from  one. It prepared me in later years to return to college (couldn’t go at first we were too poor).

When you have metal detectors and police patroling urban schools there’s a real problem. Does that mean that parochial and private school kids are angels? Far from it. Yes private schools do “kick out” students. They just do it quietly.

Maybe a combination of vouchered schools and better managed public schools is the answer. One size does not fit all.

OOps that’s BarbFD. Rented fingers.

Competition. 

Cost-benefit.

Accountability. 

Increased discipline. 

Expectations. 

I could go on but these factors are much more prevalent in private and parochial schools. 

The status quo and throwing good money after bad is a recipe for continued disaster….and that is what our urban education system is right now. 

I taught my kid from the time he was in elementary school that it did not matter whether you were the best as long as you knew that you tried your best – that you can always be proud of. It’s about self respect.

The public school systems have always focused on the best students and have always left behind the lower grade students. In low income districts they leave behind almost everyone and just give up.

The culture of the parents in thsoe areas have gone on for far too long to change, so that should not be a reason. If these so-called graduate degree educators are so smart then why can’t they figure out how to solve that problem?

The view that ”some kids just aren’t smart enough” is indicative of exactly what is wrong. Based on that view a young african american kid from the projects has only a few choices to succeed: (1) be smart enough to be a doctor or mba, (2) professional sports, (3) professional entertainment. After that they are on their own with a complete lack of self-esteem and no prospects.

The parental blame has been around for a very long time. Why haven’t these graduate degree educators come up with innovative ways of bypassing that problem?

Exactly Felizarte.  The political leaders who represent areas that harbor gangs and criminals need to focus expenditiures on what is needed to clean-up and advance these areas.  First and foremost as we send soldiers overseas to fight wars to help to free their country from tyranny, we need to do the same in areas of criminal affluence.  Spend our tax dollars on better law enforcement, removing and/or fixing vacant buildings, after school educational programs etc.  There is much that can be done.  But these lazy greedy corrupt politicians really do not care about their constituents and what they were elected for.  On the contrary, it is better for them to keep groups in poverty so they will not wise up and know how they have been used and screwed.

Vouchers would finally destroy public schools.  The right strategy is to look at the whole system and make public schools about education and not about babysitting and psychotherapy.  People who can’t behave should be out; students are mandated to attend school until the age of 16 so their safety should also be mandated.  

People need to be asking the question:  why are the public schools in our neighborhood low quality?  It has to be because the adults don’t value education.  That is the problem which needs to be fixed.  Vouchers are unconstitutional.

Pizza Driver:  I agree with you totally.  The other problem is see (also politically incorrect) is that when students from bad neighborhoods go to white middle class schools, they mostly start bullying the other kids instead of working to be educated.  Then everybody loses.

No, the mayors of D. C. have consistently been black.  Obama actually has nothing to do with various public school systems.  It’s a local and state issue, not a national issue.

Actually in many districts this is the system.  You don’t have to send your child to a particular school, only a school in your county or district.

The Catholic HS in our area is known as the school with the worst drug problem in the county.

LD–why not apply your list to public schools? Those should be the standards that they follow. Taking money out of the school system will not help.

Would you believe my husband encounters these very same problems in his graduate school courses?  Education in this country is a political mess. Congress has been using public schools as labs for social programs since they were established in the Gilded Age.  The only thing that makes public schools acceptable is if you live in a district where the parents care about the quality of the schools.  If you are in an area that is poverty-stricken and crime ridden, you will not get good schools.  These are problems the schools can’t overcome.  The federal government should look at the causes behind the problems and work to change society and the economy that imports millions of destitute people into this country and leaves at least half of every group in the slums to turn to crime and escape into drugs and alcohol.  

I have no hope now that both the Republicans and Democrats have found benefits in importing every-increasing numbers of third world people into the U. S. and leave them to fend for themselves and force productive people to support them.  We will never have a sustainable quality society until we start to control immigration and get a static population. 

If you gave out vouchers to everyone, the private and parochial schools would simply find a way around them.  They’re PRIVATE, they don’t have to take any undesirable students.

Parents who cannot read, write, or speak English.  Part of the problem.  So many illegals who send their kids to American public schools but don’t pay taxes for them and then not only do we have to educate the kids, but, as you recommend, the adults as well.  What do you think that costs?

Hokma, you’re making my point, I think… If the kid isn’t smart, but tries hard at what he can do, that’s far better than any system trying to pull up by the boot straps those who don’t try at all.

My phrase about stupid kids may not be so PC but I stand by it. Public schools have tried to be all things to all kids and it’s no surprise to any of us that it doesn’t work. Voucher, charter and private schools work because they are targeting toward their niche. Fall outside that and you can’t be there.

So a voucher kid gets targeted instruction with a lower child-to-teacher ratio, but someone like me that could even send my kid to private school (if I wanted to, which I don’t) has to leave my kid in a normal classroom. For some that’s a problem. Not me…or at least I hope it won’t be when they are old enough. My wife and I will continue to be involved in our childrens’ growth. 

Why try to teach a kid with an inherent tested inability to do math to take physics? They get frustrated and give up…because their parents don’t give them the support you have given yours (and I hope to give mine). 

Why hasn’t researchers found a way around parents? Cuz parents are parents. And we have, for a long time, clung to this idea that EVERYBODY can be a rocket scientist, instead of working toward our POTENTIAL. 

The most supportive parents can be subverted by a school environment that is dangerous to their children.

Who are the poster children for scholastic achievement? Asian-Americans. It is difficult for any student to match their study ethic and their GPAs tell the tale of their stellar performance. However, when they are subjected to a campaign of bullying and intimidation, which culminates in physical violence, it puts a damper on their ability to excel.

South Philadelphia High School made the news for its eruption of violence against Asian-American students. Inner city parents of every race just want to be able to send their kids to school and not get a call from the principal that the child was sent to the hospital as the result of a riot.

It may surprise some suburbanites to know that not only do urban school districts have their own police departments, some come equipped with their own squad cars.

It’s that bad.

Bayareavoter….you are correct. Those standards should apply to all schools. Regrettably the public schools for whatever reasons do not uphold these standards.

The vouchers take money but also take the expense as well. Net net it is a transfer not an added expense. 

I’m very glad you said this and not me.  This was the precise problem with our child’s middle school.  And the only option available to us was to have her bussed to another public middle school far away from our house.  With soccer, music lessons, homework and other extra-cirricular activities, it was not an option. 

Amen to that, Ellen!  Just last year, my son’s 9th-grade English teacher was such an incompentent troublemaker, that they “promoted” her to a non-classroom position.

I had to wonder if it was because she is black.

My experience has been that whether the parent knows english as a second language is inconsequential to success.  It is the parent’s motivation and belief  that education is the most important goal that the child responds to.  I grew up around many Italian/Americans that had parents and grandparents that didn’t have a command of english, but those adults had a firm belief that a good education was the key to success.  

Think of all the post WWII kids who got a college degree because their parents didn’t finish HS.  Their parents, including mine, insisted that kids go to college.  

It isn’t a program that causes success, it’s a belief and it’s an attitude that says nothing will stand in the way of my getting an education that makes all the difference.

exactly, ces, and the reason why public schools can’t kick out disruptive students is because the PARENTS would never stand for it.  ditto for why they can’t flunk students who should be flunked. 

Hokma, who sends their kids to charter schools?  Parents who care, that’s who, and there’s your answer.  the reality is that MOST parents with kids currently in the public school system would not put up with the rules and discipline practices of private/charter scools.  that goes double for the parents of kids who are in the most trouble.  i’m not defending “the system” or the teachers union, but those things are not what is topping kids from learning.

word, buzzlatte, and unfortunately it is very hard to teach people to care.

AA, of course there are extremes on either side, but as a general rule, kids will learn if they come from families who care about their education and stress the value of it to their kids.  at a certain point though, if a kid lives in a community where the entire community is dysfunctional, it may be hard for the parents to counteract the influences of so many other people.  at that point, it is time to move, because even a charter school will only marginally improve the kid’s prospects. 

that’s very true, PA; i student-taught in what could be considered an “inner-city” middle school in Tampa, FL (crime-central), and at a certain point, the critical mass of dysfunctionality takes over the school, as it has already done in the community at large; at that point, it is very hard to turn things around because you would be constantly swimming upstream. 
but even in those situations, i saw students sitting in the same classes (none of them rich, as far as i could tell), and some would behave well and learn, and others, you could just tell that the future wasn’t bright for them. 
i hate to be cold, but in all seriousness, if you are a parent with young kids living in a community like that, do whatever it takes to pack up and get the heck out of Dodge and go find somewhere that has a healthier environment.

PizzaDriver, yup. I hear ya. Or rather, my family hears ya!  

At some point we let a failing kid’s emotional “well-being” trump academic success/appropriateness…..  ”Oh, no. We can’t hold Johhny back because it might hurt his feelings.” 
When I was an elementary kid, we had what 2-3 report cards a year? Now, they have updates every three WEEKS. There is no excuse for a parent to not know how their child is doing, especially if they are failing. If the kid is failing a subject or is having general problems, public schools have vast resources for truly problem kids, whether emotional, intellectual or behavioral. But ya gotta have buy-in from the parent/s. And unfortunately, in some cases that my mother had to deal with, the race card got pulled out. Like my mom would fail my child ‘cuz she was a different skin color. 

You can scenario that out.  Could be a distinct possibility, Murray.  I’ve seen it in school districts.  The truth is never gotten to because it may cause a lawsuit.

It’s funny that Rev. Meeks uses the incendiary term “slave masters” when I notice that his wife, Jamell MEEKS, took his last name. That is a throwback to the days when women were chattel, but he’s cool with that.
Parity begins at home, Rev!!

BarbFD:  Thanks so much for bringing up the PC problem.  It is a big problem!  What passes for U.S. History (my pet peeve) is appalling.  And it is bleeding in to private schools, too.  I think private schools are trying to keep their costs down by hiring very new teachers who have are informed by their own PC education, including all the hottest, revised history.  The other thing I shake my head over is what I call “edutainment,” the dumbing down of just about every subject and the undignified position this puts teachers in–turning them into a sort of stand-up “show” at the front of the classroom.  It’s hard to compete with Sponge Bob and South Park I guess.  Believe me, if our kids are lucky enough to land that 80K/year job out of college, no VP of Finance is going to do a comic routine in order to explain this quarter’s budget and sales goals to them at the office.  Makes me laugh just imagining that.  And no boss is going to accept “..and uh, like, uh….yeah” as an explanation for not hitting your production goals.  We really aren’t doing our kids any favors by letting them slide into this slouchy, lazy thinking and behavior.

I’ve worked in economically depressed schools and the single biggest factor, IMHO, was parental attitude and involvement.

The single factor to the success or failure of students depended upon the make-up of the classroom.  If too many students were disruptive or too developmentally challenged without assistance in the mix would take the focus away from education and place it on behavior management, health management, or both.  Teachers’ roles were expanded to include being a counselor, police officer, nurse, speech therapist, physical and/or occupational therapist,  expanded curriculum manager, wheelchair mechanic, esl teacher, and the list went on. Still does.  I speak from experience.  As a teacher, I was asked to be all those things on top of teaching a class of 28.  ALL the students suffered and their education was compromised.

I knew something was completely broken when a principal told a teacher (not me)  they would have to call around to get a new wheelchair for a student because the parent didn’t have a phone.  It never occurred to the administration that they could ask the parent to come to school and make the calls.

It’s a wonder that anyone goes into teaching at all these days.

Yep, and there are a lot of people upset that this country used to have slaves until the 1800′s that don’t realize that in 2010 there are still slaves in the world. A whole lot of them actually. I wish some of the more enlightened among us that are concerned with “slavery” would go to Africa, buy a slave family in 2010, bring them here and educate and house them until they can become self sufficient and provide for themselves. That would make a whole lot more sense than crying over something that ended here some 150 years ago.

Sorry Larry, you’re trying to take some successful approaches from a subset of our system and apply them to the whole. Thinking “competition” will help a failing school just denies all those other factors involved. 

Market economics just can’t be applied without all the players involved.

But there might be one thing from economics that could help: INTEREST rates!!

It’s not just “urban”. Most, if not all, schools in the Dallas-Fort Worth have a school officer whose full-time job is at that school. My wife’s school has a squad car parked by the back doors every day. 

?? a wife who takes her husband’s name is a throwback to what?? 

Wow. 

More union busting…

Bob, 

Last I checked education is supposed to be about…..the kids. 

Larry, no doubt aout it, Catholic schools in the inner city do a much better job of educating than public schools. But if you thnk you can solve the problem by handing out vouchers, and dumping all the failing pupils onto the Catholic school system, you have your head up you know where.

The Catholic School system can save souls, but it is not going to save the inner city school system from its own self destruction. It is a pure numbers problem. It’s like saying eveyone should be able to go to Harvard using vouchers.

The Catholic Schools and Harvard cannot accomodate that many students. 

If you want to fix the inner city school problem, then do it by fixing the inner city schools. Those communities have failed their kids, and they have no one to blame but themselves. 

Nothing succeeds like success. No doubt, this ultimately all starts and ends at home but there are plenty of homes and families who will make the sacrifices to allow their kids to attend a private/parochial school if there were the assistance of a voucher in place.

Won’t be solved overnight, nor will it be totally solved, but one kid at a time quickly multiplies and a degree of scale can be created.

it’s political grandstanding to be sure. he’ll be running for national office for sure. i remember Los Angeles had a black mayor before the storm; atlanta has been ruled by black politicians for decades and somewhere recent i recall a Detroit mayor un-repentful as any white dude I’ve met so when you sling the white mayors or the black pimp into your language, you’ve lost every level thinking person there is left (or right) in the world.

MOS and PD:  I was going to say this, too.  I’ve seen that happen.  The mother moves to a safer neighborhood with better schools, but the kids are already troubled, and they infect the new neighborhood and school.  They bring the problems with them.

It’as about time people woke up and started realizing that the dems of the 21 century have far too much in common with those of the 18th, and the only real difference is that now women and the gay and lesbian community are working the fields with us. How ever republicans are hardly better, those fools couldn’t findtheir own behinds with a encyclopedia and a flash light.  And every day i see these morons snatch defeat from the jaws of victory trying to be fascist light to the neo-fascist on the left instead of listening to their constituents. They all disgust me, but one things for sure, once you realize you are on a plantation and you get a chance to get away do so and don’t look back. ANd that precisely what i intend to do. I don’t TRUST establishment democrats any longer, and any dem who get’s my vote will have to impress me much the way in 2007 a repbulican would have and still has to do to get my vote.

Larry, I said I’m not interested in what MEEKS has tp say after that. Not you.

felizarte – that’s not how they do it here – here they bus kids all over the place.  They put the college prep schools in the poor neighborhoods and bus the kids in, and they put schools with other themes (arts, languages, etc) in other areas and bus those kids in.  I don’t think most kids go to their neighborhood school here.

Personally, I think the ideal situation would be kids going to their neighborhood schools, instead of spending two hours a day on a bus.  But as long as schools are funded by property taxes, poor neighborhoods will always have inferior schools. 

And I don’t believe the disparity is about race - it’s about income.  After all, most poor people are white.  Within each race the percentages of poor are different, but in terms of actual numbers, most poor are white.  I really wish they would find some other way to fund schools, because the current way is only going to perpetuate poor schools being in poor neighborhoods.

As far as Meeks wanting 42,000 vouchers for kids – even without debating whether vouchers are the answer or not – what I wonder is, do the other schools (the higher quality schools) have 42,000 spots open?  I guess I just don’t get how that would work.  Will those schools continue to be superior when all the classes are overcrowded, will there be enough supplies for that many extra kids, etc…..?

I agree about the personal and parental responsibility – maybe it would be called the “family culture”.  There seems to be something different today – my parents have told me that most poor people when they were growing up (and they were among them) in New York were taught by their parents to study so they could get ahead in life.  My mom said that the high schools then were separated by “track” – some schools focused on vocational training, and some focused on academic learning.  She herself chose to go to a high school that was predominately Jewish, even though she wasn’t Jewish, because the kids in that school took education seriously and she wanted to be in that environment.

I’m starting to think they should start having the different high schools again – vocational vs. academic.  Acting like every kid is going to go to college only frustrates those kids with less ability, and holds back the higher achievers.  I agree with the person on this thread who said we should start focusing on teaching kids to their potential.

Professional victims.

Why is it that teachers always get the blame? I really have a problem with how the teacher are treated in this country. The are under paid for the most important job, that’s to educate the hope and future of this country. It’s the parents’ job to ensure that their kid are doing their best on getting educated.

I went to over 20 school tours before choosing a school for my 5 yr old girl, a public school. When I told the teacher that she’s being to easy on my daughter, she’s worried that some parents already complaint about her being to strict.

The inner city school have parents that are just over protective of  their kids. They want the teach to do magic without giving them any room to do their job. The community leaders ( does this ring a bell?) are inciting hatred for teacher to gain political capital or influence.

Just let the teacher do their work.

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