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Just Another Twisted Path to Health Care

By Linda Anselmi on March 18, 2010 at 9:00 AM in Current Affairs

Just when you think the road to Health Care Reform can’t get any more twisted, the Democrats uncover a new rule.

The House of Representatives has a problem. They have a health care bill they need to pass, but it is so bad no one wants their name tied to it, so Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi announced a new path way to making Heath Care Reform law. It’s called “deem and pass” or “self-executing rule”.

The House of Representatives can vote on an amendment and then, if it passes, deem that the original bill it was to amend is also passed. This way no one has to actually vote on the original bill and have to defend their vote to their constituents (i.e., voting for those great deals for Nebraska, Louisiana, and Florida.) The only problem is that amendments are used to amend LAWS. A bill doesn’t become a law until it is voted on and passed by both the House and Senate and signed into law by the President.

What a nice little short cut. They should have named it “no vote’ as in no vote required. Which does wonders for governmental transparency or accountability. The Wall Street Journal points to the accountability issue in How Democrats may ‘deem’ ObamaCare into law, without voting.

This two-votes-in-one gambit is a brazen affront to the plain language of the Constitution, which is intended to require democratic accountability. Article 1, Section 7 of the Constitution says that in order for a “Bill” to “become a Law,” it “shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate.” This is why the House and Senate typically have a conference committee to work out differences in what each body passes. While sometimes one house cedes entirely to another, the expectation is that its Members must re-vote on the exact language of the other body’s bill.

As Stanford law professor Michael McConnell pointed out in these pages yesterday, “The Slaughter solution attempts to allow the House to pass the Senate bill, plus a bill amending it, with a single vote. The senators would then vote only on the amendatory bill. But this means that no single bill will have passed both houses in the same form.” If Congress can now decide that the House can vote for one bill and the Senate can vote for another, and the final result can be some arbitrary hybrid, then we have abandoned one of Madison’s core checks and balances.

A constitutional challenge will likely await “Deem and Pass” if it is used according to Politico’s Fred Barbash:

Alan Morrison, a professor at the George Washington University Law School who has litigated similar issues before the Supreme Court on behalf of the watchdog organization Public Citizen. “What does ‘deem’ mean? In class I always say it means ‘let’s pretend.’ ‘Deems’ means it’s not true.”

Any challenge likely would be based on two Supreme Court rulings, one in 1983 and the other in 1998, in which the court held that there is only one way to enact a law under the Constitution: it must be passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the president.

- snip -

And in both cases, the court said that while Congress can make its own rules for its own convenience, those rules must “be exercised in accord with a single, finely wrought and exhaustively considered procedure” set out in the Constitution.

Justice John Paul Stevens, writing for the court, defined the procedure in the line-item case as having three steps: approval of a bill by one house, approval of the “exact text” by the other house, and a presidential signature. “The constitution explicitly requires that each of those three steps be taken before a bill may ‘become a law,’” he wrote.

But, of course, Nancy Pelosi, Henry Waxman, and Louise Slaughter already knew this because in 2005 they filed amicus briefs against Republican using a self-executing rule as Larry Johnson pointed out in his post The Audacity of Hypocrisy.

Lawrence O’Donnell tackles “deem and pass” on Morning Joe (really starts at 2:00 mark)

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

Then, O’Donnell goes on to explain, if the bill and amendment passes, what the American people will end up with – over and above subsidizing the health insurance industry.

Increased taxes – Since half the new coverage comes from a Medicaid expansion, which creates an unfunded mandate on states whose budgets are already broke. Does any one see higher state taxes on the horizon.

Increased premiums – Being able to review premium rates, doesn’t translate into lower rates. Insurance lawyers will see to that. Just ask California.

Cut in benefits – The tax on premium plans isn’t to help pay for the cost of health care. It’s a way to let insurances cut benefits — and their costs.

Additional topic discussion here.

HARP

President Obama’s pitch: Fate of presidency on the line

One caucus member told POLITICO that Obama won him over by “essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House. The member, who requested anonymity, likened Obama’s remarks to an earlier meeting with progressives when the president said a victory was necessary to keep him “strong” for the next three years of his term.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34602.html
surfered

You state that it is a “new” rule; however, the Slaughter Rule was used 36 times by House Republicans in 2005 and 2006, when they last controlled Congress. “I’m shocked, shocked to find out gambling was going on. Your winnings sir. Oh, thank you very much.”
HARP

If Congress can now decide that the House can vote for one bill and the Senate can vote for another, and the final result can be some arbitrary hybrid, then we have abandoned one of Madison’s core checks and balances. Yes, self-executing rules have been used in the past, but as the Congressional Research Service put it in a 2006 paper, “Originally, this type of rule was used to expedite House action in disposing of Senate amendments to House-passed bills.” They’ve also been used for amendments such as to a 1998 bill that “would have permitted the CIA to offer employees an early-out retirement program”—but never before to elide a vote on the entire fundamental legislation.
Docelder

It continues to be all about Obama. It always was about him and it still is. His historic presidency, his historic visits, his historic speeches and his historic acomplishments… The job is getting lost in history. We needed a historic leader. If there is one out there, we haven’t seen him or her yet.
HARP

Democrats cite the GOP’s use of the so-called “Gephardt Rule” as precedent for the Slaughter Solution. In a nutshell, here’s how the Gephardt Rule works. There is only one legislative measure according to the Gephardt Rule: a joint resolution. Yes, folks, a joint resolution can be passed by both houses and be signed by the president, and then it has the force of law. According to the Gephardt Rule, the joint resolution is generated as follows: the House takes a single vote that passes both a (non-legislative) continuing resolution in addition to the (legislative) joint resolution, although the joint resolution is merely “deemed” to have passed instead of passed explicitly. The joint resolution then goes to the Senate. If the Senate approves, the President signs the joint resolution, and it thus becomes law. Everything is perfectly constitutional, though a bit dodgy.

Contrast the Slaughter Solution which involves approval of not one but two legislative measures in a single vote. In that single vote, the House approves a Reconciliation Bill explicitly, while implicitly deeming that the Health Care Bill has passed too. Maybe that’s not so bad, but what happens next is much worse. The president would then sign the Health Care Bill, without signing the Reconciliation Bill that the House had just explicitly voted for.

According to the Gephardt Rule, all of the legislative stuff that the House votes for is approved verbatim by the Senate and signed by the President. But according to the Slaughter Solution, only some of the legislative stuff that the House votes for becomes law, while the rest dangles in legislative limbo. That is a flagrant violation of Article I, Section 7 of the Constitution, not to mention the Court’s interpretation of Article I, Section 7 in the case of Clinton v. New York.
Captain Jack Sparrow

Lets see Newt pull the same shit about 100 times during his tenure as Speaker. Hastert did the same thing about 107 times. So its BOTH PARTIES pulling the same shit.

So this is news? This is how screwed up both parties are, so let’s stop just blaming one side.
Linda Anselmi

Captain Jack

So because both side do something it makes it right? And the American people have no right then to say enough is enough? Regardless of party, we need transparency and accountability in our government.
No Longer Banned in Beantown

“The president would then sign the Health Care Bill, without signing the Reconciliation Bill that the House had just explicitly voted for.”

For those scoring at home, the President can’t sign the reconcilliation, because the Senate did not vote on it. (And he should not sign the Senate Bill if the House does not vote on it and pass it)

It’s a little like a shell game and bait and switch all rolled into one.

The House will vote on a reconciliation, pretendng that it is the Senate bill. If the Reconcilliation passes, the House will give the President the Senate Health Care Bill, even though the House did not vote on it.

Then, the President signs into law the Senate Bill, minus the reconcilliation.
prime obot

The CBO scoring is out. $120 billion in savings in the first decade, over $1 trillion in savings in the second. While insuring more than 30 million Americans who lack health insurance today.

Game over, Republicans. (And PUMAs.) I know, I know, you’ll all fulminate that the savings won’t materialize. I believe they will, because we’re going to keep improving this legislation and passing more health care reform over time, building on the principle that is now about to embedded in American law: every U.S. citizen gets health care. Every single one. And private insurance companies can’t boot you onto the street when you get fired, or when you get sick, if a nurse spells your name wrong on a form.

Every citizen gets health care.

Yeah, I’m liking that hope and change today.
No Longer Banned in Beantown

My responses keep getting deleted by the reply button. Arghhh….

For those scoring at home:

The President cannot sign the reconcilliation bill because the Senate did not vote on it.

It is like a combination of a shell game and bait and switch.

The House votes on a reconclliation, and pretends it is the Senate Health Care Bill. Then the House gives the President the Senate Health Care bill, even though the House did not Vote on the bill.

The President then signs the Senate Health Care Bill minus the reconcilliation.
Docelder

Everything is always lollipops and gumdrops on the big rock candy mountain.
No Longer Banned in Beantown

So, Obamacare will be unconstitutional because it violates Article I Section 7 precident set by the Supreme Court in Clinton v New York.

Obama’s only hope is to drag out court challenges in the hope he can pack the court with Justices that do not believe in Stare Decisis.

Except that would allow future courts to overturn Roe v Wade.

And if Clinton v New York is not enough, Obama care faces court challenges regarding Article I Section 8 due to kickbacks to states, and Fifth Amendment challenges ue to the mandate for all Americans to buy health insurance.

“The Supreme Court recognized and affirmed this fundamental principle from the earliest days of the republic, as Chief Justice Marshall famously observed: “The powers of the legislature are defined and limited; and that those limits may not be mistaken, or forgotten, the constitution is written.” Nowhere in the Constitution is Congress given the power to mandate that an individual enter into a contract with a private party or purchase a good or service.”

Fifth Amendment: “No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use”
buzzlatte

You’re being spun, Prime Obot,and falling for it. The Dems are spinning the ‘unofficial’ CBO estimate as the truth. Not so fast.

The Arena
buzzlatte

Your are being spun prime obot. The CBO estimate is unofficial and the dems are touting to the press as if it’s a done deal. Not so fast.

The Arena

Interesting- how the guy that supports the 216 votes is the guy from the insurance industry.
No Longer Banned in Beantown

The CBO is like your computer Obot. Garbage in, Garbage out.

The CBO can only crunch the numbers given to them. And if the CBO is given cooked books, the CBO is not going to uncook them.
trixta

Savings, PO? LOL!! Let’s see, my premiums in CA are set to go up by 39% minus 3,000% savings — which means that I’m going to get a check of about $29,000 from my insurance company! Hopey-Changey Health Care! Hooray!
Vince

Both parties have NOT done this. NEITHER party has ever done this. They’ve never used Slaughter to amend a BILL. It’s only been used in the past to amend LAWS (Bills that have already been passed by both houses and signed into law).

Did you even watch the accompanying video?
No Longer Banned in Beantown

Your Hopium and Change is starting to reek even for Democratic Congressmen. The only Change you should hope for is to Obama’s diaper.

“The controversial plan to approve health care reform without a direct vote doesn’t even pass the smell test for one of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s own floor whips, according to the Boston Herald.”

“Rep. Stephen Lynch, D-Mass., who helps round up votes for the leadership, told the Herald the plan is “disingenuous” and threatened to vote against it unless he sees changes. Lynch voted for the House health bill last year.
“It would really call into question the credibility of the House,” Lynch said, according to the Herald.”
SeriouslySickOfObama

Well, now we are left with his HISTORIC EPIC FAILURE and will go down as the worst President Ever and I am sure that makes Jimmy Carter happy, he no longer will have that title, LOL!
Judy in NC

I vote Present!
HARP

“The Congressional Budget Office has confirmed that there is currently no official cost estimate. Yet House Democrats are touting to the press – and spinning for partisan gain – numbers that have not been released and are impossible to confirm. Rep. James Clyburn stated he was “giddy” about these unsubstantiated numbers. This is the latest outrageous exploitation by the Majority – in this case abusing the confidentiality of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office – to pass their massive health care overhaul at any cost.”
Hokma

Republicans did not use it to force something of this magnitude nor has any prior Congress.

If Obama and Pelosi use the Slaughter House Rule and not an up-and-down majority on the entire bill, then the level of outrage in this country will result in recall motions for Democrats and certainly a tidal wave of GOP/Indepts being voted into office in the Fall.
HARP

Another piece of inside information on the backroom Obamacare negotiations has made it outside. During a recent White House meeting with the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, President Obama made it clear that this hugely unpopular, obscenely expensive piece of legislation is, of course, all about him.

http://www.talkingsides.com/blogs/2010/03/18/as-always-it-s-all-about-obama
Hokma

“Obama’s only hope is to drag out court challenges in the hope he can pack the court with Justices that do not believe in Stare Decisis.”

Obama will not be in office past 2012 and will, therefore, only have opportuities to replace existing liberal justices.

I also think that more and more states will fight Obamacare in court as will activist interest groups and companies and industry associations.

There will be parts found to be unconstitutional as you point out and eventually will be repealed.

What Obama does not comprehend is that he is not the smartest guy in the room and there are differences of opinion. More importantly, Americans do not want to be forced to do anything by the government. It’s called self-reliance.
armymom

Sorry bot, the numberrs are not final. You been punked, or is that puked. Works for me either way.
Diana L. C.

These backward ways they keep coming up with to pass this monstrosity appear to the general public as nothing but the sleight of hand tricks carnival cons use. I just don’t see how O thinks passing anything using these tortuous methods will keep his presidency “strong.” Americans don’t like being tricked.

P.O. and his/her/its constant “but the Republicans did it” routine is just making me sick. So now we can call the Democratic Party the Republican Party2
oowawa

Well, Thee One got the Nobel Prize (God knows, he deserved it). Now, his Dem posse is obligated to pass “My Bill” in order to save His Presidency. Here are the lyrics to Queen’s song, “Gimme the Prize”:

Here I am, I’m the master of your destiny,
I am the one the only one, I am
the god of kingdom come,
Gimme the prize, just gimme the prize,
Give me your kings, let me squeeze them in my hands,
Your puny princes,
Your so-called leaders of your land,
I’ll eat them whole before I’m done,
The battle’s fought and the game is won,

I am the one the only one,
I am the god of kingdom come,
Gimme the prize, just gimme the prize,

Now you die
I have something to say: it’s better to
burn out than to fade away
There can be only one

Move over, I said move over,
Hey, hey, hey clear the way,
There’s no escape from my
authority – didn’t I tell you? -
I am the one the only one, I am
the god of kingdom come,
Gimme the prize, just gimme the prize,
I am the only one,
I am the god of kingdom come,
Gimme the prize.
LarsThorwald

Sweet. I used to come here during the primary wars, when the site was getting a lot of traffic — traffic that has died off tremendously — and my prediction came true.

obama would achieve legislative success after legislative success, and the people remaining here would become more bitter, more angry, but, ultimately, a very small, and very silly.

You have not disappointed. I was right.

Carry on, good citizens.
buzzlatte

-20 for presidential approval today on Rasmussen Reports. Guess not too many are fooled anymore.
LarsThorwald

Sorry, I got so carried away in my excitement I didn’t finish my description of you: a very small, very silly minority.
jbjd

Hokma, reading your comment much too quickly, I read, “a tidal wave of GOP/Inepts being voted into office in the Fall.” I fear my misreading points to the more likely scenario.
oowawa

Video for the above lyrics. This is the 3rd time Freddie Mercury has recently
appeared in videos related to Thee One’s personality and pretensions:
LarsThorwald

Although, i will say this for all of you: you at least appear to have given up your heavy flirtation with birtherism, which is a positive. Another positive: it doesn’t appear as if you are moderating out comments that don’t fit your myopic worldview, which shows inclusiveness, I guess. And: your commenting engine is cleaner and nicer looking. Plus, it appears AmericanGirlinItaly’s blog is now kaput, and she doesn’t post her here as much. All positives.

But I think the scorecard is still outweighed by your failed prediction that Hillary would win the primary; your failed prediction that McCain would win the election; your failed prediction that Obama would usher in some kind of Muslim Administration; your failed prediction that Obama would be some sort of rabid leftist; and the countless other predictions that you have all, each of you, have failed to predict.

Keep bashing Obama, keep using hyperbolic language. It doesn’t matter. He beat you. He is popular. He is getting things done.
Touchet

What is it with obama that our congressmen and women keep playing this game?

They need to get him out of office and stop playing this game with him. Last time i checked him and nancy are breaking their oath to uphold the constitution. This is treason.
Hokma

Thanks. I meant Independents.

Maybe it was a freudian typo slip because I think Congress is packed with inepts!
Hokma

“He is getting things done.”

Getting what done?

- Failed to get Iran to speak to him at all and are now probably with 6 months of nukes.

- Failed to close Gitmo
- Failed to try KSM in NYC
- Failed to get the PLO to negotiate with Israel
- Failed to cap unemployment at 8%
- Failed at cap and trade
- and will fail with healthcare

So what exactly has Obama accomplished than grossly esacalate spending, debt, and unemployment?
oowawa

Of course, there is a certain humorous self-mocking parody of his own pretentiousness in Freddie Mercury that is lacking in Thee One . . . The other two videos posted on NQ were “The Great Pretender” and “We Are the Champions.”
confused American

Got this in the mail from MoveOn(think I must have been looking to them during my Hillary Days)
“Dear MoveOn member,
Imagine picking up the newspaper next week and seeing this headline:
“Short One Vote, Obama Health Care Effort Fails”
It’s a nightmare—but it could happen. The big House vote is this weekend and they’re still short a handful of votes. ”

I not only did a reply but found their contact button on their site and wrote.
”I would be dancing in the streets if one vote blocked Health Care and sending campaign donations to that one great American politician”

This also is showing that the Democrats do not have the Support or votes and are still scrambling for suport and votes.
buzzlatte

Upside down in Gallup Poll. -20 on Rasmussen Reports today. Under 50% approval on Real Clear Politics.

Yeah Lars, Old Obama is popular alright.

They mixed the kool-aid extra strong this morning. Things are failing dear leader again and looky here – The Obots are out.
jbjd

No, your spelling was fine; in my haste, I ‘freudianistically’ misread what you wrote.
confused American

Did anyone notice that there are several polls that have more people disapproving of Obama than approving of him.

Overall averager at RCP of Obama approval polls has Obama under the 50% approval rating since November of last year. (Took GW about 5-6 years to get there).

Can’t be just NoQuarter folks that don’t like him…there not that many people who post here are there???
oowawa
oowawa

Hallelujah, trixta. Praise be to Thee One! That means I’ll be able to stay in my house another year before it is foreclosed!
oowawa

I’m agnostic!
oowawa

Gee Lars, what’s a Winner like you doing here at NQ slumming with us Losers? Don’t you have better things to do, like getting a stall ready for your new unicorn?
Diana L. C.

Lars–go back where you’ve been all this time. We didn’t miss you. None of us have changed on any of the things you mention. We’re just waiting for history to write the true story. It will come out eventually.

In the olden days, the MSM tried to hide things like FDR’s affair and his polio, things like that. But the truth came out.

It may take a while, but the truth will eventually set you free from your Kool Aid addiction.
prime obot

Oh, for heaven’s sake, you guys are getting so desperate it’s embarrassing. Here’s the full, official CBO score:

http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/113xx/doc11355/hr4872.pdf

If you want to reject the CBO’s numbers, well, it’s a free country. But there is no more nonpartisan, authoritative institution in the entire country to judge legislation’s fiscal impact in this way. For many years, Republicans have been pointing to CBO scores to criticize Democratic proposals that would theoretically cost a lot of money. Now that we have a Democratic proposal that the CBO says will save the U.S. a trillion dollars over a couple decades, suddenly we can’t trust the CBO estimate.

Whatever. Obama’s (and thus, middle class America’s) enemies have lost this battle, big time. Learn to live with it.
Yttik

“He is getting things done.”

Well he’s certainly been doing a fine job of destroying the Democratic party and bankrupting the country.
~~JustMe~~

I love slumming with you losers!

No better place to be!
sowsear

Turn it over, and it’s the same on both sides.
sowsear

Obama does not care if the the bill is found unconstitutional. He will have had his big moment, and the celebrations will have been big, big, I tell you.
sowsear

And the baby will have not only new shoes but a pony.
sowsear

Let’s not answer the trolls. They try to take over with longer and longer harangues that amount only to insults.
)o(

”I would be dancing in the streets if one vote blocked Health Care”

I thought I would never read something as idiotic, but then there is a ’confused American’ Your words reflect on you. I’m linking to your post to show others there are shills for the insurance companies that will dance in the streets if health care is denied to other Americans.
Who needs health care? ‘Don’t get sick, and if you do, die quicky!’Right?
oowawa

Yep JustMe–it’s not a good idea for Winners to keep on gloating over their victory and taunting the Losers over a year after their “victory.” It is hubris, which generally does not end well. There is still fire left in the eye of the tiger, even if it has been caged. There are always bots like Lars who like to come by and rattle our cage. In the words of Tom Petty, “Even the Losers get lucky sometimes . . . “ and they’re not going to keep us restrained . . .
Docelder

Middle class America? There won’t be a middle class. Corporations will have it all before this corporate shill is done.
oowawa

Yep JustMe–it’s not a good idea for Winners to keep on gloating over their greatness and taunting the Losers over a year after their “victory.” It is hubris, which generally does not end well. There is still fire left in the eye of the tiger, even if it has been wounded. There are always bots like Lars who like to come by and rattle our cage. In the words of Tom Petty, “Even the Losers get lucky sometimes . . . “ and they’re not going to keep us restrained . . .
Hillary or Bust

Just because someone is uninsured doesn’t mean they don’t get health care. I pay out of pocket and don’t want to be forced to buy insurance at the point of a gun. And you are a total moron, “o” if you somehow think the insurance companies are AGAINST a forced health insurance mandate.

PS To the Obot above who thinks that less traffic here after a contentious election means there’s aren’t people who think they way we do – I have a few PUMA friends who were active here during the election but not so much now. Guess what? They still hate Obama. And they are against the health care bill. And I personally read the posts here every day but lurk most of the time. So give it up.
oowawa

Yep JustMe–it’s not a good idea for Winners to keep on gloating over their greatness and taunting the Losers over a year after their “victory.” It is hubris, which generally does not end well. There is still fire left in the eye of the tiger, even if it has been wounded. There are always bots like Lars who like to come by and rattle our cage. Rattle away . . .
prime obot

Virtually all of the tens of millions of Americans who have no insurance today, or lose their insurance right when they need it most, and thus wind up in bankruptcy or losing their homes or dead, are in the middle class; rich people don’t care (as much), and most of the poor already qualify for Medicaid. This bill will dramatically bolster the finances and health of many millions of middle class Americans. And they’ll know which party they have to thank. Why do you think the Republicans are freaking out today? Whenever the Democrats manage to do something truly great for the American middle class — Social Security, Medicare, etc — Republicans scream socialism and treason. And then they get their asses kicked in the next election.
Docelder

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains there’s a land that’s fair and brightWhere the handouts grow on bushes and you sleep out every night
Docelder

Don’t get sick, and if you do, die quicky!’Right? – Especially if you are old and white. There are a lot of young exuberant brown people living in Mexico who would love to take your places. So, hurry on.
CD

This spirited HC thread inspired this generic comment:

Where is America heading? I am always looking for trends and the big picture. If you look at the approval curve for the current executive branch and legislature, it has been on a steady downward spiral.

Ultimately, what will be the outcome? I predict the same as the last administration: they will be replaced by the polar-opposite political philosophy once again — leaving the majority of Americans in the middle left out of the political process.

I call this “political bipolarism.” I define this term on my blog’s Glossary: http://bit.ly/9Icd3K

“Political bipolarism”: Dangerous and extreme political mood swings when government oscillates between far-left and far-right political philosophies. A pattern of bipolarism can marginalize voters who favor a bipartisan or centrist perspective.”

I think we can do better than vacillate between extremes, if well meaning folks recognize the pattern and make better choices at the ballot box.
Docelder

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains there’s a land that’s fair and bright. Where the handouts grow on bushes and you sleep out every night .
No Longer Banned in Beantown

”like getting a stall ready for your new unicorn?”

No problem for Lars there – He’ll just use the same stall he creates for Obama by bending over.
Docelder

Insurance and health care aren’t the same thing POBot. Health care would be cheaper if there was no insurance selling cadillac prepaid plans. Prepaid medical just causes medical to be overutilized… because you feel you already paid for it whether you get any or not. So, people want the newest most expensive drugs and the newest most expensive tests because they want their money’s worth from their insurance. It is so expensive, they want what they paid for. They aren’t pre-paying for health, but for services, tests and drugs. See the problem? Health care is not insurance. This is the fundamental flaw.
Docelder

POBot, you might remember I am O.K. with single payer. I think either do that or do tort reform… But insurance isn’t the solution, it’s the problem. I hate insurance companies to be honest about it.
No Longer Banned in Beantown

From MSNBC First Read:

“Indeed, the CBO’s letter to Speaker Nancy Pelosi says the numbers are preliminary.”
Although CBO completed a preliminary review of legislative language prior to its
release, the agency has not thoroughly examined the reconciliation proposal to verify its consistency with the previous draft. This estimate is therefore preliminary, pending a
review of the language of the reconciliation proposal, as well as further review and
refinement of the budgetary projections.
HARP

Since Obama does not care about American procedure, let’s deem him impeached!!!
sowsear

Is he taking hostages yet?
sowsear

There definitely will be a Them and Us
sowsear

Middle class America? There won’t be a middle class.

There definitely will be a Them and Us.
prime obot

As always, Docelder, I find you among the most reasonable and insightful of the folks here. Thanks for your comments. Of course, single payer would be the best system. And of course, insurance companies are the enemy. The point I have tried to make, many times, is that at the very least, this bill enshrines the principle that every American must have health insurance, and cannot be dropped or denied coverage. It also funds the development of non-profit co-ops across the country, which could form the basis for an eventual national public option. One step at a time. This first step is a giant step, though, and enormously important. I think it’s quite clear that Obama’s presidency will rise or fall with this bill, which is (obviously) why so many ostensible “progressives” on this website claim to be against this bill. And when they see Hillary Clinton standing with tears in her eyes watching as an honored team member when Obama signs this bill later this month, enjoying the vindication of a lifetime of labor for this cause, NQers won’t know what to make of it.
sowsear

Obama organization sending bogus letters to the editor in favor of the Health bill.
http://bigjournalism.com/richmondsexton/2010/03/18/president-obama-promotes-ofa-astroturf-campaign-with-bonus-plagiarism/
prime obot

Oh yeah? How will you define those terms? I’m quite curious.
Hank

The terrorist don’t even try to cause harm to us, they have Obama on the inside destroying the greatest country with the greatest health care.
sowsear

See what Rasmussen is saying about some of the Senate races:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/obama_approval_index_history
Hank

I concur…
AC

Always like Shirley Temple
sowsear

tidal wave of GOP/Inepts being voted into office in the Fall.” I fear my misreading points to the more likely scenario.

See my above remark
AC

Senator Obama is that you?
AC

Lars, did you have anything to do with the Nobel–now a worthless approbation.
oowawa

Evocative family of words:

Deem
Damn
Dim
Dumb
Dem
Doom
Hank

Vice President Biden added to his lengthy list of gaffes Wednesday when he took a moment to honor the memory of the Irish prime minister’s mother — a woman who’s very much alive.
No Longer Banned in Beantown

The complete text of the March 18th CBO letter to Pelosi is here:

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/113xx/doc11355/hr4872.pdf
“CBO has not yet completed an assessment of the impact for the longer term of enacting

the reconciliation proposal by itself.”

But, be prepared for a long wait to get it. The CBO website is locked up with people trying to access that letter.
No Longer Banned in Beantown

The “Constitutional Scholar” can’t explain how a bill becomes a law, and does not care.
oowawa

I guess Harvard didn’t have Schoolhouse Rock videos in he library:
oowawa

I guess Harvard didn’t have Schoolhouse Rock videos in the Library:
No Longer Banned in Beantown

What surprise. Obama enlists plagiarism to help his Health Care campaign.

I would have never expected that from a man who flunked out of Occidental College, and if not for plagiarism would not have graduated from Columbia and Law School.

And although Obama used plagiarism throughout his Presidential and Primary campaigns – “Just Words”, “Bamboozled” – I am shocked, shocked to find he would plagiarize as POTUS.

NOT!
AbigailAdams

watchin’ CNN again, huh?
AbigailAdams

“official” ? That word obviously holds some importance for you. It’s “officially” an “estimate” based on a lot of other estimates. And the CBO has said nothing (yet) about the spending of medicaid twice (or thrice).
No Longer Banned in Beantown

Dude, I’ve been talking about the Bipolar political pendulum wrecking ball for quite some time.

Obama is the engineer on the Bipolar Express!!

It used to take 6 years for the swing. Obama has accomplished it in one. He is quite the achiever that O.
oowawa

Could have been worse. He might have used the traditional Irish blessing:

“May your mother be in heaven an hour before the devil discovers she’s dead.”
Docelder

I likened this a while back to being on one of those pendulum style amusement park rides. The maniacs on the controls keep making it go higher and higher to either side and most of us just want off the ride. I fear what is happening to our country with this administration and I fear even worse what will come with the next one. I hope I am wrong. What do I know, I am just a RINO at this point. Both parties scare me to be honest.
sowsear

For those of us who are patriotic and don’t get messed when prayer is mentioned, here’s a good article:
http://hillbuzz.org/2010/03/17/a-very-personal-plea-for-our-nation/
Docelder

Maybe a third book? “What they don’t teach in Harvard Law School”.
No Longer Banned in Beantown

Here is a real WTF Moment from the Congressional Budget Office.

As it turns out, the budget analysis that has the Democrats salivating in anticipation has nothing to do with the HEALTH CARE BILL.

That’s right ladies and gentlemen. The CBO is analyzing the effects of the different proposals in the RECONCILLIATION BILL.

And, that CBO analysis is fully dependent on whether the costs for the items in the PROPOSED BILL (The House has not completed revisions yet) are accurate.

Yes sir, it really is a shell game.

Step right up Mr CBO and keep your eyes on the health care bill while I mix it around in these three shells.

Now, without looking under the shells, tell me what that cost will be by looking at this other reconcilliation thingy over here.

“The estimate is presented in three ways:



An estimate of the budgetary effects of the reconciliation proposal, in combination with the effects of H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), as passed by the Senate;



An estimate of the incremental effects of the reconciliation proposal, over and above the effects of enacting H.R. 3590 by itself;



An estimate of the budgetary impact of the reconciliation proposal under the assumption that H.R. 3590 is not enacted (that is, an estimate of the bill’s impact relative to current law as of today).
No Longer Banned in Beantown

Here is a real WTF Moment from the Congressional Budget Office.

As it turns out, the budget analysis that has the Democrats salivating in anticipation has nothing to do with the HEALTH CARE BILL.

That’s right ladies and gentlemen. The CBO is analyzing the effects of the different proposals in the RECONCILLIATION BILL.

And, that CBO analysis is fully dependent on whether the costs for the items in the PROPOSED BILL (The House has not completed revisions yet) are accurate.

Yes sir, it really is a shell game.

Step right up Mr CBO and keep your eyes on the health care bill while I mix it around in these three shells.

Now, without looking under the shells, tell me what that cost will be by looking at this other reconcilliation thingy over here.

“The estimate is presented in three ways:

  An estimate of the budgetary effects of the reconciliation proposal, in combination with the effects of H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), as passed by the Senate;

  An estimate of the incremental effects of the reconciliation proposal, over and above the effects of enacting H.R. 3590 by itself;

  An estimate of the budgetary impact of the reconciliation proposal under the assumption that H.R. 3590 is not enacted (that is, an estimate of the bill’s impact relative to current law as of today).
No Longer Banned in Beantown

Here’s a question CBO:

What are the costs and effects of the original Senate Health Care Bill without the bait and switch now you see it now you don’t reconcilliation smokescreen?
No Longer Banned in Beantown

Congressman Paul Ryan gave out the real Health Care Bill costs during the Blair House Summit.

Now the Dems are playing a shell game with CBO using “Reconcilliation Bill” proposals to hide the costs before the vote. The “Reconcilliation Bill” has not even been finalized. How can they know what the final costs are? The Dems can (and will) change it.

CBO analyzes the numbers on Thursday and Friday, the vote is on Sunday in the hope that over the weekend there won’t be time to analyze what garbage was given to the CBO.
Ferd Berfle

“You state that it is a “new” rule; however, the Slaughter Rule was used 36 times by House Republicans in 2005 and 2006, when they last controlled Congress. ”

Argument from common practice and entirely irrelevant.

Next.
Ferd Berfle

Irrelevant. That one side did it is no argument for doing it again. It is the fallacy of common practice. As well as being a dink, you’re also an outstanding illogician, Cp’n jerk-off.
Ferd Berfle

You must have worked really hard to get as dense as you appear to be. Your mind is a singularity.
~~JustMe~~

test
Ferd Berfle

Did you read it, dumbass? The text states:

Although CBO completed a preliminary review of legislative language prior to its release, the agency has not thoroughly examined the reconciliation proposal to verify its consistency with the previous draft. This estimate is therefore preliminary, pending a review of the language of the reconciliation proposal, as well as further review and refinement of the budgetary projections.

Which part of preliminary do you fail to comprehend, bothead?
Ferd Berfle

Oh, great, another simpering sycophant who thinks its opinion really matters. You bots are soon to become obsolete when That One throws you and your fried motherboards under the bus.
Hokma

“simpering sycophant” – great line! Definite keeper.
~~JustMe~~

Must be Ellie, Ellie is that you?
CD

NLBB, that’s observant of you — most people have no clue of the big pciture. And its good to share this view. Perhaps eventually folks will catch on.
CD

NLBB, that’s observant of you — most people have no clue of the big picture. And its good to share this view. Perhaps eventually folks will catch on.
Texas Playwright

This is FASCISM. Corrupt Congress trashing the Constitution. Corrupt bankers/Wall Street/corporations owning the government. Corrupt propaganda faux media telling lies and hiding the truth. Totally incompetent, non-American/anti-American Marxist/Communist dictator/puppet of the oligarchy sullying our national principles and OUR White House with his immoral/amoral cronies.

Yep, George Soros et al will turn the USA into a bankrupt European socialist state where We the People give all our money to the elite few and end up with little or nothing–if we let them. PIGS–Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain–are already there.

So much for Congress being a check on the (dictator) Executive Branch of the United States of American Government. Funny how the rich who already have their big bucks push unsustainable debt/slave nation “laws” on us which THEY have no intention of following.

The 21st Century American Revolution. Gonna be a long haul, patriots. Wasn’t the Stamp Act established in 1765 in the colonies? Wasn’t the Constitution written/ratified by 13 extraordinarily brave, very small states around 1787? Do We the People get that taking back our country will take a least a generation of life changing struggle? I’m ready. I grew up as an honorable, hardworking American who recognized the Divine Will guiding the creation of our country through its citizens.

This is a spiritual fight as much as it is political. Maybe that’s why “God Bless America” is one of our favorite songs.
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