RSS Feed for This PostCurrent Article

Rube Goldberg Does Intelligence

By Larry Johnson on July 20, 2010 at 5:00 PM in Current Affairs

Bumped up . The WaPo series continues. Today’s installment: “National Security Inc..”

Kudos to the Washington Post for making the attempt to pull the curtains back on a monster that is one source of Government waste–the behemoth commonly referred to as the “intelligence community.” The story and details in Top Secret America, will certainly give Congress ample ammunition to get out the carving knife and start cutting excess spending. Let me first disclose that I do some contracting work for one of the companies listed in the Washington Post database (but most of my income is earned from work in the private sector).

Dana Priest and Bill Arkin appropriately nail the National Counter Terrorism Center (aka “NCTC”). It is a useless bureaucratic mess. During the course of my work supporting US military special operations training I have read the NCTC product. It is pathetic. The NCTC puts out a daily product filled with analysis that is shallow, unfocused and, oft-times, alarmist. Last week while working on an upcoming counter terrorism exercise the question of NCTC’s role came up. I said, “NCTC is a four letter acronym for irrelevant.” That snark sparked belly laughs among the assembled group.

NCTC was a reaction to 9-11. It’s creation was premised on the specious notion that the failure of the CIA’s Counter Terrorism Center (aka CTC) to share information could only be corrected by creating a new clearinghouse for information outside the control of the CIA. While NCTC in theory was to be the focus of counter terrorism analysis, it wound up as the red-headed stepchild of the intelligence community. Other agencies, like CIA and DIA, were asked to supply analysts. They did so, sending personnel who were not their top analysts. NCTC became a dumping ground for bad analysts. It also was staffed with very junior, inexperienced analysts. The problem with that is they were not being mentored by talented, skilled analysts. If you are taught to pitch by Nolan Ryan or Sandy Koufax you know you are being trained by an expert. If you are taught to pitch by Ronald McDonald then you wonder if you’ll know anything about baseball. NCTC’s senior staff, by and large, are the Ronald McDonald’s of the counter terrorism community.

What should have happened after 9-11 with respect to the failures of CTC is that folks should have been fired and those in charge of supervising CTC should have demanded the sharing of information. Let’s recall that CIA’s CTC did received information that two Al Qaeda operatives were in the United States. Even though the FBI had personnel assigned to work at CTC they were not allowed to share that information with FBI Headquarters. Within the intelligence world this is known as “rice bowl” politics. Each agency seeks to feather its nest at the expense of the other. Sharing is not rewarded or encouraged. Up to this point there has been no sanction or cost or punishment for not sharing. You want to start fixing the mess in the intelligence community? Then force the various collectors of intelligence and information to share. It is doable (hard, but doable).

Nobody wants to deal with the uncomfortable truth–terrorism is not the greatest threat we face. I am not saying that terrorism is not a threat. I am not saying that we should not try to trackdown and kill or capture terrorists. But I am saying that we have too many agencies and too many people chasing a relatively small target and that we are wasting valuable government resources and tax payer dollars. That’s an uncomfortable truth few politicians have the stomach to tackle.

  • PssttCmere

    Bureaucracy gone wild…..does the right hand know what the left hand is doing?  I doubt it as it seems there really is no one in charge and overseeing this debacle.  When all goes awry, this has been set up, whether intentionally or unintentionally, for the perfect passing of the buck scenario….Man, I hate obamaCo and all it doesn’t stand for…..is there one competent person in this administration??  Short answer….apparently NOT!!

    “Say What You Will…It Feels So Good”

    http://www.saywhatyouwill.proboards.com

  • Sassy

    The National Counter Terrorism Center was designed to push information up the pipeline, but turned into another shuffle of unproductive bureaucrats.
    Perhaps a Congressional hearing or another appointed commission will resolve the problem!

  • Ladydawnelle

    Thanks Larry

    I had assumed much of what you say above and am glad to read you confirm my feelings.  One of many things that needed the fresh disinfectant brought to LIGHT for further trimming!  (one can only hope)

  • Tamara Cracker

    Politicians from both sides of the aisle don’t give a CRAP about the taxpayers, Larry.

    If they did, then half of the Government bureaucracies would be shut down tomorrow. 
    Good article. 
    Disturbing to me that so many people have top secret clearance.  Who knows how many of those people are selling information to our enemies.

  • kenoshamarge cracked cracker

    The problem being brought to “light” is just one step in a process that requires that the knot-heads in congress now do something about it.  
     
    I know little to nothing about intelligence gathering. I assume that like any other endeavor competent, experienced, talented people are needed for the job to be done right.  
     
    One of the things mentioned in the post is that there the people who were transferred to  NCTC were not “mentored by talented, skilled analysts”. What then is the result when the entire “intelligence” community is not monitored by competent, skilled people? A grandstanding politician is not only boring theater, they are not competent to fix a flat tire let alone something this crucial to the safety of the country. There are also, because of their incompetence, IMHO a danger to all of us.  
     
     Or maybe I’m just full of crap and don’t understand the whole situation enough to know what the hell I’m talking about. Which means I should be elected to congress.

  • donjo

    Not only  that, but:

    The Real U.S. Government
    By Glenn Greenwald

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    the uncomfortable truth–terrorism is not the greatest threat we face.

    What is the greatest threat then? Iranian or Korean nukes?  wouldn’t that be a terrorist threat.

    Or maybe drug cartels?

    Or maybe the Demoncrats within.

    Seriously, where is the greater threat that I am missing?

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    I thought that the Dept of Homeland Security was also intended to reduce bureaucracy by bringing the security agencies under one roof.

    I sure would like to see the congress that is able to dismantle a useless agency. Once they spring to life they are harder to kill than a mad scientist monster.

  • Fred

    Well Larry,

    It sounds alot like a complaint an individual whom I know that has been involved with the intelligence business for nearly 60 years has.

    We have wasted money to the point where our bread and butter, economic power, is no more.

  • Larry Johnson

    Nuclear proliferation for starters.  Russia and China both are genuine military powers with the ability to strike our mainland with submarines or intercontinental missiles.  Surely you’re kidding?
    Let me turn the question around.  Why are you so convinced that terrorism is such a huge threat requiring expending resources on a scale not seen since the Cold War?

  • TeakWoodKite

    Larry, Thanks for your insights.

    Nolan Ryan or Sandy Koufax  … I’ll take Sandy for my team. :)

    How does one keep 840,000 plus people,  with top secret clearance, from disclosing sensitive info?  That many people creates it’s own attack surface….
    Sharing becomes unintentional?

  • jwrjr

    I would say that the biggest threat that we face is an energy supply based primarily on petroleum in general, and the petroleum producers in particular.  If the OPEC countries want to destroy America as we know it, all they have to do is say “We aren’t selling America any more oil”.

  • donjo

    The biggest threat, imho, is the total takeover of this country’s democratic ideals by the right wing christian fundamentalists, who would make the Taliban seem like harmless boobs.  (The TX school board is one prime example.) They’ve been trying this forever, but particularly since Reagan.  Next is a takeover that’s already happened and that’s by the big banks, giant corps, and wall st. Our democracy and our constitution are dead; we already live in a fascist country; only the name hasn’t been changed yet.

  • EllenD

    Thank you Larry.
    You posed this:

    You want to start fixing the mess in the intelligence community? Then force the various collectors of intelligence and information to share. It is doable (hard, but doable).

    And you had already posted the answer:

    What should have happened after 9-11 with respect to the failures of CTC is that folks should have been fired

    Start firing people for not passing on information. That should make them pass on information like a hot potato.
    There’s nothing that gets people’s attention like knowing they are playing musical chairs and may be thrown out when the music stops.

    (Wow. Playing musical chairs with hot potatoes – I think I’ve invented a new game.)

  • propertius

    We get most of our imported oil from Canada and Mexico. Neither of them is likely to go along with such a scheme.

  • Ferd Premium Saltine Berfle

    Nobody wants to deal with the uncomfortable truth–terrorism is not the greatest threat we face. I am not saying that terrorism is not a threat. I am not saying that we should not try to trackdown and kill or capture terrorists. But I am saying that we have too many agencies and too many people chasing a relatively small target and that we are wasting valuable government resources and tax payer dollars. That’s an uncomfortable truth few politicians have the stomach to tackle.
    ====================
    This should be posted on billboards, repeated on the radio, and should be the first story on the nightly news. I cannot agree more. I am sick to death of our treasure being wasted on government agencies that are so stove-piped that they not only don’t know what other agencies are doing but apparently don’t even know the other agencies even exist. I call foul. Dismantle that bloated DHS now. And while they’re at it, they can repeal the Last Refuge of Scoundrels Act. I don’t like Pappy government andy more than I like Nanny government. Want security–seal the damn borders.

  • Ferd Ritz Cracker Berfle

    Nobody wants to deal with the uncomfortable truth–terrorism is not the greatest threat we face. I am not saying that terrorism is not a threat. I am not saying that we should not try to trackdown and kill or capture terrorists. But I am saying that we have too many agencies and too many people chasing a relatively small target and that we are wasting valuable government resources and tax payer dollars. That’s an uncomfortable truth few politicians have the stomach to tackle.  
    ====================  
    This should be posted on billboards, repeated on the radio, and should be the first story on the nightly news. I cannot agree more. I am sick to death of our treasure being wasted on government agencies that are so stove-piped that they not only don’t know what other agencies are doing but apparently don’t even know the other agencies even exist. I call foul. Dismantle that bloated DHS now. And while they’re at it, they can repeal the Last Refuge of Scoundrels Act. I don’t like Pappy government any more than I like Nanny government. Want security–seal the damn borders.

  • BuckeyeTexan

    The CTC’s failure to share information? Ha! The failure belongs squarely on the shoulders of Jamie “the wall” Gorelick.

  • Larry Johnson

    No, that’s not true.  Not at all.  Gorelick had no juice whatsover over CIA.  Enough of the partisan horseshit.  Please deal with the facts.

  • Ferd Ritz Cracker Berfle

    The biggest threat, imho, is the total takeover of this country’s democratic ideals by the right wing christian fundamentalists, who would make the Taliban seem like harmless boobs.  
    ===============
    ROFLMAO. They aren’t in the same league as the Alinsky miscreants who want to micromanage our every breath from birth to a predetermined death.

    What’s YOUR BMI, Donjo? It will be public record, soon. Those of you on the extreme left are going to one day regret your foolishness. it will be too late, however, to make any difference. In lieu of taking on the Xtian right, why don’t you take on the soulless left?

  • Ferd Ritz Cracker Berfle

    Keep preaching, LJ–Please.

  • BuckeyeTexan

    Nothing partisan intended. From your article:

    “Even though the FBI had personnel assigned to work at CTC they were not allowed to share that information with FBI Headquarters.”

    The reason the FBI personnel were not allowed to share that information was a direct result of Gorelick’s 1995 memo and the resulting DOJ policies.

    From the Washington Times:

    ” … the practical effect of the wall was that counterintelligence information was generally kept away from law enforcement personnel who were investigating al Qaeda activities.”

    “For example, in late August, when the CIA told the FBI that Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi had entered the country, FBI investigators refused to permit criminal investigators with considerable knowledge about the most recent al Qaeda attack to join the manhunt. Also, a criminal search warrant to examine the computer of Zacarias Moussaoui, whose interest in flying aircraft had attracted attention, was rejected because FBI officials were afraid of breaching the wall. ”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/apr/15/20040415-094758-5267r/

  • Ferd Ritz Cracker Berfle

    It is a useless bureaucratic mess.
    ====================
    As are so many of the bureaucracies created by either side. It has been my experience over the course of 26 years of working for the Feds that the government does a lot but nothing at all well. They can spin bullshit into a souffle but can’t make it edible. One cannot even compel a bureaucrat to perform as their job is secure, irrespective of performance. A great many of them should be fired–that will never happen. I do hope to one day actually get away from government work and actually do something worthwhile. I can’t believe I’m even saying this but I am.

  • donjo

    The “Alinsky miscreants” don’t own 95% of talk radio, nor do they own their own tv “news” outlet or newspapers. Or most of the large corps or banks, or sit on Wall St. boards.  There’s probably only a total of 50 of them in the entire country. Let us all know when your right wing buddies do something for YOU, instead of TO you.  How you, a supposedly intelligent person, can go along with their kind of greedy, blatantly obvious manipulations and scare tactics is beyond comprehension. They’ve got you convinced to support an agenda that is definitely NOT in your or anyone else’ s best interests.  Corporations ueber alles. Screw the people; who needs ‘em. However, I guess it’s still “to each his own.” 

  • Ferd Ritz Cracker Berfle

    You really are one paranoid dude, Donjo. Your predilection for the melodramatic will be your undoing. I worry more about That One and his minions than the religious right. And you will ask why. Well, because I’m smarter than most on the extreme right and understand what they are doing because they telegraph it–I can fight that crap. On the other hand, I’m only as as smart as the autocrats on the left, who hide behind lies and redefined words. Who worries me more? Those of you that are too fucking ignorant to understand you’re being taken. You’re a fool, Donjo.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    I am more concerned about Nuclear Terrorism than nukes per se in legitimate governments of China and Russia.

    Though the problem with proliferation in any country, even the US, is that someday a terrorist organization may/will come to control a loose nuke.

    The governments of China and Russia are not the problem, they have just as much to loose as the West from launching nukes. The problems are the organizations with nothing to lose, and much to gain by using a nuke.

    China and Russia have as much to fear from terrorists as the US. Russia has it’s terrorist problem in the Caucasus and the recent Moscow subway bombings. The same radical Islam that threatens the West takes credit. Radical Islam will use a nuke as quickly there as they will against the US if the opportunity presents itself.

    Nukes in Korea and very soon in Iran are a much bigger and more immediate threat than those in China and Russia or former Soviet States. We know Korea and Iran have ties to and support terrorists who want to make a big statement of harm to the west.

    Right now the proliferation and terrorist problems are dangerously intertwined and inseperable.

    I agree with the excess of expense and waste of $$ on the terrorist problem. But just becasuse we spend NY Yankee money when Pittsburgh Priate money can do the same job does not mean it is less of a problem.

    The US and the world suffer multiple threats. But because China, Russia, the EU, Brazil and others have interconnected economies, they can all be our allies in snuffing proliferation, terrorism and even drug cartels.

    Really Larry, you think China and Russia hitting the US with nukes from subs is the biggest threat? I do not believe you.

    I am not going to pretend I know more about security than you. But, how many of the private companies you provide security service to have asked for help to protect against nukes launched from Chinese and Russian subs?

    I am going to guess that is not their biggest security concern.

  • Ferd Ritz Cracker Berfle

    You know, NLBIB, I was a Cold Warrior but I never worried about the Russkies as I do worry about the terrorosts. In some ways, I think the collapse of the Soviet Union was not a blessing but a curse. At least the Soviets did keep a lid on many of the Ubiquistans. Call me uncertain.

  • Mr. Natural

    The greatest threat facing us, after nuclear proliferation, is that no one in our government, can resolve Who Is The Monkey and Who Is The Football.

    This should be Job One every shift change.

  • donjo

    If I’m a fool, then I’m in your good company.  What makes you think  that Ozero is a “leftist?”  He’s saturated his appointments with right wingers and executives linked to the corps they “supervise”, adopted repub policies, including Romney’s “health” care plan,  continued the onerous policies of Bush and generally has given liberals a bad name.  And yet people like you and the RW media scream that he’s a flaming socialist.  That’s just pure propaganda. Anything to obfuscate the truth and keep the ignorant in their places with a handy-dandy slogan. He’s as much or more of a fascist corporatist than any of the nutcases on the far right. Talk about fucking ignorant, it seems you’re the poster child. 

  • Ferd Ritz Cracker Berfle

    You are clueless, donjo. Sorry I interrupted your delusion. I won’t do so again.

  • Ferd Ritz Cracker Berfle

    Wow, that is so Un-PC. You get a like, Mr. Natural.

  • Larry Johnson

    NO.  NO.  NO.  You absolutely do not know what you are talking about.  I worked the Pan Am 103 case.  The issue of sharing information was getting it from the FBI to the CIA.  FBI has been notorious for withholding information because they might wind up in court.  In this case with the CIA, IT HAD NOTHING, I REPEAT NOTHING, to do with the so-called Gorelick memo.  What you do not understand is that Gorelick’s position predated her and was the status quo in DOJ for dealing with the CIA.  Stop believing partisan propaganda.

  • Pingback: America’s national security protection racket — War in Context

  • Ferd Ritz Cracker Berfle

    Please run for President, LJ. we don’t have a lot of time to fix the mess we’re in and frankly, I don’t think much of the clowns who have said they’re going to run. Help us out here.

  • Larry Johnson

    Bean,
    You do not know what you are talking about.  I hold a clearance that gives me access to this kind of info and have helped script terrorist nuclear scenarios.  You watch too much TV and movies.  It is far harder than you imagine.  The Russian and Chinese threats are far more serious.

  • sowsear

    Is this anything, Larry? BO’s private communications with Odinga:
    http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2010/07/just-what-has-obama-been-up-to.html

  • TeakWoodKite

    What Ferd said.

  • donjo

    Thank God for small favors.  If I’m so clueless, then it should be easy for one of your “brilliance” to come up with counter arguments without all the name calling that’s so common on this board.  Most of the counter arguments against some right wing baseless lying ignorance head right for the “you’re just a stupid fucking moron” stage.  How classless and clueless is that! But strangely enough, we probably both want essentially the same things – just differ in the ways to get there. 

  • BuckeyeTexan

    The idea that the Gorelick Wall affected only information sharing from the FBI to other agencies is inaccurate.

    Gorelick addressed her 1995 memo to several different people, including Richard Scruggs, Chief Counsel, Office of Intelligence Policy and Review.

    “The Office of Intelligence Policy and Review, under the direction of the Counsel for Intelligence Policy, is responsible for advising the Attorney General on all matters relating to the national security activities of the United States. The Office prepares and files all applications for electronic surveillance and physical search under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, assists Government agencies by providing legal advice on matters of national security law and policy, and represents the Department of Justice on variety of interagency committees such as the National Counterintelligence Policy Board. The Office also comments on and coordinates other agencies’ views regarding proposed legislation affecting intelligence matters.

    The Office of Intelligence serves as adviser to the Attorney General and various client agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Defense and State Departments, concerning questions of law, regulation, and guidelines as well as the legality of domestic and overseas intelligence operations.

    The inclusion of Richard Scruggs, the lead counsel at the OIPR, intended to send the message that any advice given to the DoD, CIA, and State regarding the sharing of files had better fall in line with her new stated policy of going “beyond the law” to avoid any appearance of impropriety.

    Given that Gorelick held a high-profile position within Justice as a political appointee of Bill Clinton, this policy would rightly get attention as an official directive of the President’s wishes. The one office that all of these intelligence agencies would consult in terms of sharing and coordination between themselves and law-enforcement operations would therefore have advised all agencies to follow the Gorelick Wall as a standard and as White House policy.

    Given that kind of connection, it doesn’t take much imagination to understand why all of these agencies became shy about even attempting to stretch the limits of the Gorelick policy.  The notion that Gorelick’s memo had no effect outside the DoJ does not stand up to scrutiny at all, once the fact and intent of including Scruggs and the OIPR become known.”

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    I hold a clearance that gives me access to this kind of info and have helped script terrorist nuclear scenarios.

    Larry, this is exactly the kind of threat I am talking about. Iran is very close to having one or more uranium fission nukes. Or does your intel say that is a mirage? Nothing to see here. All that tunneling into mountains and burying of massive centrifuge enrichment facilities is fake?

    Yeah, I do know how hard it is to develop a fission bomb, and a hydrogen fussion bomb is even harder. Iran has developed the infrastructure and technology for a fission bomb. I do not need classified intel clearance to know that is exactly what is happening. 

    A fusion bomb is extremely complex, but a fission nuke like Little Boy uses a much simpler gun detonation of enriched Uranium 235. The same U-235 the Iranians have been furiously enriching.

    BTW, I don’t get any info from movies. I loath the rash of stupid spy movies from StupidWood and laugh at 24. But that is your standard gratuitus insult, and I have been here long enough to understand that and duck when I see it coming.

    The Moscow subway bombing looked very real to me.  In Chechnya radical Muslim insurgency is very real. Or are you telling me this is all made up Hollywood BS? The Russians have nothing to fear from Islamist extremists, and have no worries should these extemists get a nuke from Iran?

    Isn’t it true that Bin Laden and Associates, once hated by Iran now have safe haven in Iran? My enemy’s enemy is my friend, no?

    Seriously, the Russians and/or Chinese are a bigger threat than radical Islam and Iranian nukes? Russia and China are going to launch nukes at the US? Are the Chinese worried we are going to renege on our debt obligations?

    Are the Israelis buying that? Are you selling it to them?

    Maybe the Chinese watch too much Dave Chappelle and believe the stereotype about Blacks not paying their bills. After all they believed the story about monkeys being trained in Afghanistan to use mortars and automatic weapons against COIN troops. (The NY Post fell for that one too.)

    If I thought someone was going to stiff me out of a few trillion I’d be tempted to go nuclear too. On the other hand there are debt collection methods that do not require armageddon and mutual destruction.

    The U.S. is placing the Patriot and other ABM systems in East Europe and Israel to defend against the threat from Iran, yes? But Russia protests it is intended to create a new arms race with them, yes? But is Russia actually engaging in an escalation to counter the defensive missle system, or is that public posturing to show the Iranians and radical Islam that Russia is not pals with the U.S.?

    I have not seen an escalation by Russia, but you are right, I do not have access to the intel that you do. And thank you for shoving that in my face with patronizing authority.

    The problem I have with that put down is that Nixon had super secret intel and a double super secret plan to end the Vietnem War in 1968. Ever since then, ”Super Secret Intel That I Don’t have Access To”  has been a phony and egotistical trump card to me. 

    What is the scenario that shows a nuke launch by Russia or China into the US would be in their interest?  Is mutually assured destruction no longer a scenario in superpower war? (With the current Pansy Potus, maybe so.)

    Here is the bottom line in that regard. If the US sees China and Russia as a the biggest threat, as we did during the cold war, the outcome as it was during the cold war is an arms race. The only way to overcome an assuredly destabilizing arms race is for a realization amongst Russia, China and the US that neither of the three poses any threat to each other.

    But your intel tells you that we have much to fear from the Bear and Big Red. If that is true, hello return to cold war arms race.

    The current threat we face from China and Russia is economic, not nuclear. The US needs to protect against cyber war from both. But given that China depends on the US for exports, and holds much of the US debt, I don’t see how it is in the Chinese interest to undermine the US economy. Maybe when China develops a consumer society like the US has, and does not need to rely on exports, that scenario will be different.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    The lack of sharing intel always seemed to stem from bureaucratic turf posturing than any official memos and policy. And that permeated within agencies, not just interagency sharing.

    The usual human egotistical BS.

    That is what I gathered out of the John O’Neil story and failure of pre 9/11 intel.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    Now with so many agencies fighting for the same turf and intel, sharing intel appears to be a logistical impossibility.

    The reorg that was supposed to make intel easier made it impossible.

    Larry, please tell me again that I do not know what I am talking about so I can feel better about the security ability of the US.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    Problem: Agencies are not sharing intel info amongst themselves or each other.
    Solution: Create more agencies that do the same thing.

    Only in Washington DC. God help us all.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    The wrong kind of sharing or sharing with the wrong kind of people.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    I don’t know that Gorelick was personally responsible for the policy of not sharing between criminal and intel investigations, or just ran with and expanded an already in place bad idea.

    But Gorelick is definitely the Anti-Forest Gump. Instead of a simpleton who turns historical moments into rainbows with pots of gold, Gorelick is a reasonably intellegent person who turns historical moments into cesspools filled with shit.

    Running with and expanding an in place policy of restrictions on intel sharing (her own words in a response to John Ashcroft) – That turned out well for the US, eh. (A political appointee with no intel or investigative experience setting intel and investigtion policy)

    Running Fannie Mae with Franklyn Raines, with no prior finance experience, manipulating and falsifying accounting to create a $10 billion accounting scandal while saying, “We believe we (Fannie) are managed safely”.

    Gorelick received $26,466,834.00 in income from Fannie, so at least she got her pot of gold, while investors and the taxpayers got the cesspool of shit she helped create.

    She is now a legal defender of BP and lobbies against student loan reform.

    Gorelick is a typical Cover My Ass with legalese lawyer and public servant serving only her own financial and political interests.

    We can do without the Jamie Gorelicks, that I am sure of.

  • Nice Try

    Maddow, did a very good piece last night on a recent shoot-out and bust of guys trying to sell nuclear material and what they termed as a commerical nuclear device. As Maddow points out, why is this not bigger news and being reported in the MSM? Aren’t the possiblity of a dirty bomb, WMD and a suitcase bomb our biggest threat. Larry I would appreciate if you looked into this story and gave us your thots. Maybe do a post on this story.   
       
    Here is the link to the Maddow story:   
       
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#38317270  
     
    and here is a link to a news story of the nuclear bust in South Africa:  
     
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/07/11/2010-07-11_four_arrested_with_nuclear_material_for_dirty_bomb_in_south_africa_report.html

    or this very small pieced in the WaPo:

    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/07/south_africas_dirty_bomb_myste_1.html

    This seems much more serious than the attention it is getting. Certainly more imporant that what all of 12 New Black Panther idiots are saying.

  • Fred

    Do you know anything about either the Taliban or al Qaida?

    Saying the Right-wing Christians are worse than the Taliban shows nothing but ignorance.

    No wonder the World seems to think Americans are stupid.

    If you know nothing about the World, you probably shouldn’t open your mouth. Equating right wing Christians with Taliban makes you sound like an ignorant, spoiled brat.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    Larry says they are not threats. Larry says nuke warheads launched from Russian and Chinese subs are bigger threats. Lord Larry has spoken.

    Personally, the threat from a dirty bomb would be the hysteria it produces. The threat from a nuclear device such as Iran and Korea are capable of making is a bigger and real threat. Larry disagrees. He is stuck in China and Russia.

  • Peggy Sue

    I’d say the biggest threat is that we’ll all tear one another part before a single shot is fired.  Then the transnationals can sit on the ashes and smile their cat’s smile and go: Ha! Ha! Ha!  We won.  You lose.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    Larry says Russia and China are bigger threats than terrorism, “Russia and China both are genuine military powers with the ability to strike our mainland with submarines or intercontinental missiles. Why are you so convinced that terrorism is such a huge threat requiring expending resources on a scale not seen since the Cold War?”

    First of all, I agree that the intel gathering and proliferation of agencys is an assinine waste of tax money. We are not getting the needed bang for the buck.

    But just because the US spends too much money on intel and gets very little useful intel for it does not mean that intel is not needed.

    Just because a lot of people overpaid for their homes does not mean they don’t need a place to live.

    More to the point, I believe the threat of terrorism is bigger than the threat from Chinese or Russian nuke missle launces from subss.

    Why?

    Number of Russian and Chinese attacks on the West in past 20 years – ZERO. (Cyber wars perhaps, shooting wars? Nyet) 

    Number of terrorist attacks around the world in the past 20 years – In the THOUSANDS every year.

    What is worse that throwing massive amounts of money on useless intel agencies? Throwing massive amounts of money on problems that don’t exist.

    I want to keep an eye on the Chinese and Russian military capability so we don’t get caught napping. But the actual problem in terms of what is actually occuring around the globe? It’s not missle launches from subs.

  • ralphb

    What the hell is everyone so afraid of with terrorism?  Your chances of getting killed or injured by a terrorist attack are far less than being struck by lightning, yet it eats up so much worry.

    Define and protect potential terrorist targets the very best we can, then conduct low level offensive operations against them but do it quietly and covertly.  I see absolutely no need for panic over terrorists.

  • karen for Clinton

    One dirty bomb in a water supply, in Times Square, at a nuclear facility, etc.

    9/11 was a big f’n deal if you lived in NYC at the time.  The place stunk like death for miles around and the smoke was toxic too, for a long time we dealth with it.  They’re still finding body parts.

    Do you live in a likely target city?  Do your children go through Grand Central Station daily?

  • sowsear

    Do your children go through Grand Central Station daily?

    Yes, and I worry about them…

  • sowsear

    One works on the 69th floor…

  • Tamara Cracker

    I’m with you on that, Fred.
    I don’t know any Right-wing Christians who engage in the stoning of women,  clitoris removal, acid pouring on their wives. 
    I don’t know any Right-wing Christians who yell “God is Great” while sawing off another human’s head.   Gimme a break, Donjo.

    My husband is in Kuwait right now.  Five years ago he had men kidnapped, some of them are dead. 
    Donjo shouldn’t rattle off some stupid blanket statement that is utterly untrue and makes him sound like an idiot.

  • Tamara Cracker

    That’s not going to happen, Peggy Sue. 

    If anything, I think Americans are finally waking up and realizing that we are going to have to fight together to maintain our freedoms.
    Petty arguments on a blog don’t bother me.

  • Tamara Cracker

    Ha.
    You must be from Wisconsin.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    Lightning strikes ar predictible and stable around the world. Terrorism is hardly predictible and stable. It is increasing.

    Until 2001 the US had not had a “terrorist” strike, unless you count military strikes like Pearl Harbor as terrorism.

    In the past year the US has had the Ft Hood shootings, the Christmas Bomber, and the Times Square Bomber.

    No one is saying you should live your life in fear and shutter yourself indoors. But it is a fact that the terrorism that has been common throughout the world is reaching the US.

    So stick your head up your ass if you want. I prefer to be vigilent. I do not worry that I could be harmed by a terrorist at any moment. But I do worry about idiots who think it will never happen here.

  • Larry Johnson

    The only person with head up ass is you.  Terrorism is not increasing.  Check the actual statistics.  It has declined since 2006.

  • Larry Johnson

    No.  There are not thousands of attacks.  If you count actual attacks, where people are killed and wounded, you are looking at less than 600 attack last year, for example.  Stop making shit up out of your deluded fantasies.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    Ft Hood shootings, the Christmas Bomber, and the Times Square Bomber.

    Mexican drug cartels learning how to remotely detonate car bombs.

    But If you say terrorism is decreasing Larry it must be true. I yield to the master. Now go wipe the shit of your face.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    Check the actual statistics.

    I checked.

    Missiles from Russian and Chinese subs – ZERO
    Terrorist acts – Thousands.

    Anything else?

  • Nice Try

    Never thought I would defend Larry as I almost entirely disagree with him on everything, but Beantown you have no idea what you are talking about and I do not think you know what Larry thinks.

  • Larry Johnson

    Thousands?  You’re fucking insane.  No excuse for stupidity.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    Of the 14,338 reported terrorist attacks worldwide last year, 45 percent took place in Iraq, and 65 percent of the global fatalities stemming from terrorism occurred in Iraq.  2006 stats – WAPO      
         
    The number of terrorist attacks worldwide increased nearly fourfold in 2005 to 11,111 2005 stats – WAPO      
         
    Per the US Dept of State:      
    Incidents of Terrorism Worldwide       
         
    Terror attacks worldwide      
    2005         2006         2007      
    11,156     14,570     14,499       
       
    Attacks resulting in at least one death, injury, or kidnapping       
    2005         2006         2007     
    8,032       11,322       11,125      

    Attacks resulting in at least one death      
    2005         2006         2007      
    5,137        7,434        7,258   
       
    http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2007/103716.htm      
       
    The number of terrorist acts decreased in 2007 from 2006 from 14,570 to 14,499. A decrease of a whopping 71 acts of terrorism.      
       
    Hallelujah!! Raise the flags and call back the troops.      
    TERRORISM IS DEFEATED!!!      
         
    In the world according to Larry.   
         
    BTW – for those who claim lightning is a worse threat than terrorism.      
    Worldwide, lightning causes serious injuries in 1000-1500 individuals every year.  
       
    Larry, how about you cite some data to prove your deluded fantasies about the defeat of terrorism and the rising threat of Nukes from Russian and Chinese Submarines.  
       
    Talk about making up bullshit, you are really turning into a joke.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    See the posted reference from the Dept of State.

    I am beginning to doubt your credentials.

    Per the US Dept of State:        
    Incidents of Terrorism Worldwide         
           
    Terror attacks worldwide        
    2005         2006         2007        
    11,156     14,570     14,499         
         
    Attacks resulting in at least one death, injury, or kidnapping         
    2005         2006         2007       
    8,032       11,322       11,125        
     
    Attacks resulting in at least one death        
    2005         2006         2007        
    5,137        7,434        7,258     
         
    http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2007/103716.htm        

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    Yes, Thousands 
     
    NCTC Observations Related to Terrorist Incidents Statistical Material   
     
    Approximately 11,800 terrorist attacks against noncombatants occurred in various countries during 2008, resulting in over 54,000 deaths, injuries and kidnappings.  

    I am embarrassed for you Larry.

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    If they ever include the Mexican Cartels as a terrorist organization, as they should be per the definition the the US Code, Those thousands could increase by 40%.

    the US Army High Command issued a report stating that “two large and important states bear consideration for rapid and sudden collapse: Pakistan and Mexico.”

    Mexican authorities say the assailants lured police and paramedics to the scene through an elaborate ruse seemingly taken out of an Al-Qaida playbook.
    A street gang tied to the Juarez cartel dressed a bound, wounded man in a police uniform, then called in a false report of an officer shot at an intersection. They waited until the authorities were in place to detonate the bomb.

    Mexican president blames candidate’s killing on drug cartels, warns of election infiltration

    Mexican crime statistics indicate a 300% increase in drug-related murders from 2007 to 2008. Last year alone, more than 6000 people were murdered in drug-related crimes. These “drug-related” crimes have affected innocent bystanders, families of police and cartel members, and American citizens.

    Nearly 70 Americans are estimated to have been kidnapped by cartels on both American and Mexican soil. Phoenix, Arizona has the second highest reported kidnapping rate in the world, averaging nearly one kidnapping every day. Mexico City is currently number one with the nation of Mexico averaging 30 to 50 kidnappings per day.

    more than 60 Americans have been kidnaped in Nuevo Laredo.

    “Iranian agents and members of Hezbollah” are thought to be learning Spanish in Hugo Chavez-run Venezuela before trying to obtain false documents to enter the United States as purported Mexicans. She said Hezbollah, known for its tunnel-digging skill, could be receiving drug money from cartel operations in exchange for help forging better tunnels across the U.S. border for trafficking

  • No Longer Banned in Beantown

    I do not know what Larry thinks, but I do know what he says. And in this thread Larry has said that the biggest threat the US faces is from Russian and Chinese nuke subs.

  • kenoshamarge cracked cracker

    That I am Tamara Cracker. I now live in the south eastern most county of WI, directly south of Milwaukee. Kenosha is what I call the sphincter muscle of Wisconsin for reasons too numerous to mention.

    I was born mid-state and folks like us that emigrated to this area for jobs, as 2 of my Uncles did, were referred to as “Stump-Jumpers”.

    Thus to call myself “Kenoshamarge Cracker Stump-Jumper” would be more accurate if a bit long.

  • kenoshamarge cracked cracker

    Me neither Tamara Cracker. Honest disagreements are a part of life.
    If the arguments sometimes get a bit “heated”, well that’s also a part of life.

    We can disagree on some things and agree about others without getting outraged because someone has the audacity to disagree with our point of view. I know that is just human nature but as adults we could, and should, at least try to have a conversation without it turning into a name-calling, hair-pulling, brawl.

    Am I sometimes guilty of the above? You bet. Sorry about it afterwards. Usually.

    Trolls are another thing entirely. Never a bit sorry to see them get stomped flat.