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Comparing Apples And Oranges On THe Mosque Issue

That is what people who claim there are mosques four blocks away from Ground Zero, so what’s the big deal with building one near Ground Zero? How far is far enough to suit these Islamaphobic bigots anyway?

That is just apples and oranges – yes, there is a mosque four blocks away from Ground Zero, but it has been there for DECADES. Its site was not chosen specifically because it was close to an area targeted by Islamic extremists. The Masjid Manhattan was not chosen precisely because [art of the landing gear of a jet that had been turned into a WMD fell into it, as was the case for the Park 51 mosque. There is a world of difference between the two. It is disconcerting that people like Alex DiBranco, who wrote the article linked above, or since you've probably not heard of him, Mara Liasson of NPR, who made that argument Monday, 8/30, on Fox News All Stars:

[snip] Right, the critics of the project do have a responsibility to say where in Manhattan it would be OK, because there is a mosque four blocks from ground zero, currently. Would they like that one moved?

If it’s just the location, and it’s not the fact that a mosque is being built, where would it be OK? On Staten Island, the upper west side? Where would it be OK? Because there have been other anti-mosque demonstrations elsewhere around the country that are very far from ground zero.

So I think it’s important for the people against this to be extremely clear about exactly what they’re against.[snip]


Well, gosh, Ms. Liasson, I think people have been EXTREMELY clear about why they do not want this mosque built in that location by this developer and why.

Good grief. There is a serious lack of logic operating there (or rather, not operating). How can these people be so obtuse? Is it intentional, or do they really not see there is a huge difference between the two?

The same goes for Obama and his ridiculous, uh, I mean, “brilliant” statement to the effect if Jews wanted to build a synagogue there, or Christians a church, a Hindu temples, etc., that should be A-Okay. No problem with that at all. Well, for once I agree with him, but not because of the conflation and distortion he is utilizing, but because, yes, those groups should be able to build near Ground Zero if they wish (or perhaps an interfaith center to house them all). Why? Because THEY DID NOT MURDER THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS as a direct result of their faith (distortion that it may be). That’s why.

Jews, Christians, Hindis, Buddhists, Wiccans, any other group you can think of, did not pick a location close to where a group affiliated with their religion murdered thousands of people BECAUSE it was close to that site.

And it wasn’t their first attack on that site, either, though too many people seem quick to forget that. This was the second time in less than ten years that Muslims attacked the World Trade Towers. Again, they weren’t terrorists who happened to be Muslims, but because of their particular belief system, were terrorists because they were Muslims.

Just yesterday, we had two more Muslims from Detroitpicked up in Amsterdam who were conducting a dry run to see if they could get materials on board a US flight. The scary thing is, they were able to do so. There was the “Christmas Day” bomber. The NYC bomber. There are Muslim extremists planning – actively planning – to do us harm.

Of course, that does not mean all Muslims are bad, or out to get our country. We understand that, too. But to continue to deny that there ARE terrorists out there who want to harm the US because of their Muslim faith is the worst kind of “tolerance.” That isn’t “tolerance,” that is stupidity.

So, yes, there are over 100 mosques in New York City. We know this. That’s fine. Whatever. And yes, there is one four blocks away that was built decades ago. So? All these folks making that point, or what they think is a point, just need to stop trying to act like its the same thing. It is not.

As I have said before, it is about decency and compassion for those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero, and for the whole country, which may not ever fully heal from that attack on our soil. Conflating this one mosque being built (by a developer with a rap sheet a mile long, I might add) near Ground Zero in a building that had part of the jet land in it has absolutely NOTHING to do with where other mosques are, especially ones that have been there for decades. Nor does it have anything to do with other religious faiths being able to build near Ground Zero.

These are red herrings, obfuscations, the sole purpose of which is to deny the reality of what happened at Ground Zero through the appearance of “tolerance.” Maybe Mara Liasson can forget it. Maybe President Obama can forget it. But the majority of Americans cannot, have not, and will not.

  • Onofre’s arm

    I have an idea. Since most of the hijackers were Saudi nationals, we should demand that Saudi Arabia pay for the entire construction of the exact replica of the twin towers at ground zero. After completion of the new twin towers they can build their stupid mosque as close as they want to GZ, and hopefully, the towers will keep the mosque in their shadow for most of the day.

  • jwrjr

    R3A: well spoken.  We can’t stop the terrorists, but we don’t have to help them!

  • greenlantern

    Right on, Rev! Mara often has her head on straight but when it comes to this issue, the entire Left (with notable exceptions giving the FU to Obama) is twisting themselves into all sorts of pretzel shapes. I say let them twist–the more they do, the closer to oblivion they move. Thank goodness Krauthammer slapped that argument down in short order, stating it was the mosque developers who made an issue of choosing the site because of its proximity to GZ, not the mosque opponents.

  • Hokma

    This so-called moderate Iman just said in Dubai that the outcome of this GZ mosque will determine the future of Islam in the United States.

    First of all, so much for him being called “moderate.” Second a new poll shows that 71% of New Yorkers want these people to voluntarily move the mosque.

    Instead this Iman Raef paints everything as black and white. Either things are done the way Muslims want them to be done or they are not acceptable. Ther more this Iman shows complete intolerance the more New Yorkers want him out of there.

    Yet ALL of his words – past and present – are never mentioned by the surrender monkey left. All they have is that red herring label of “bigot.”

  • Christopher

    While martyrs on the left and the right screech about “religious freedoms,” and ignore the wishes of 2/3rds of 9/11 families, details about the mosque developer’s lengthy criminal record have started to emerge.

    Please meet Mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal.

    Sharif El-Gamal is not only a cretin but enjoys a criminal record going back to at least 1990.

    According to records uncovered by CBS 2 News in New York:

    · In 1990, he was arrested in Nassau County and pled guilty to disorderly conduct

    · In 1992, he pled guilty in Nassau to DWI and paid a $350 fine

    · In 1993, he pled guilty in Nassau to attempted petit larceny and paid a $100 fine

    · In 1994, arrested for disorderly conduct in Manhattan

    · In 1998, there was another Manhattan disorderly conduct arrest.

    · In 1999, yet another Manhattan disorderly conduct arrest

    A potential problem for El-Gamal is a deposition he gave in the assault case in October 2007. When asked if he was ever convicted or pled guilty to a crime, he replied “no.”

    El-Gamal owes over $227,000 in unpaid real estate taxes and a spokesman for the Department of Finance said interest will be added for each and every day its unpaid.
    His most recent arrest was in 2005 for assault on a man he met while working as a waiter at Serafina Restaurant, who sublet an apartment from his brother.

    He reportedly punched the man, breaking his nose and cheekbone and spit on him.
    El-Gamal first said he didn’t hit the man, but arrest documents obtained by CBS 2 showed he later conceded, “his face could have run into my hand.” Nice.

    Another question surrounding the debate is whether the Muslim cleric of the mosque, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, knew about El-Gamal’s criminal background and unpaid taxes before partnering with him.

  • Christopher

    While martyrs on the left and the right screech about “religious freedoms,” and ignore the wishes of 2/3rds of 9/11 families, details about the mosque developer’s lengthy criminal record have started to emerge.  
     
    Please meet Mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal.  
     
    Sharif El-Gamal is not only a cretin but enjoys a criminal record going back to at least 1990.  
     
    According to records uncovered by CBS 2 News in New York:  
     
    · In 1990, he was arrested in Nassau County and pled guilty to disorderly conduct  
    · In 1992, he pled guilty in Nassau to DWI and paid a $350 fine  
    · In 1993, he pled guilty in Nassau to attempted petit larceny and paid a $100 fine  
    · In 1994, arrested for disorderly conduct in Manhattan  
    · In 1998, there was another Manhattan disorderly conduct arrest.  
    · In 1999, yet another Manhattan disorderly conduct arrest  
     
    A potential problem for El-Gamal is a deposition he gave in the assault case in October 2007. When asked if he was ever convicted or pled guilty to a crime, he replied “no.”  
     
    El-Gamal owes over $227,000 in unpaid real estate taxes and a spokesman for the Department of Finance said interest will be added for each and every day its unpaid.  
    His most recent arrest was in 2005 for assault on a man he met while working as a waiter at Serafina Restaurant, who sublet an apartment from his brother.  
     
    He reportedly punched the man, breaking his nose and cheekbone and spit on him.  
    El-Gamal first said he didn’t hit the man, but arrest documents obtained by CBS 2 showed he later conceded, “his face could have run into my hand.” Nice.  
     
    Another question surrounding the debate is whether the Muslim cleric of the mosque, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, knew about El-Gamal’s criminal background and unpaid taxes before partnering with him.

  • Christopher

    While martyrs on the left screech about “religious freedoms,” and ignore the wishes of 2/3rds of 9/11 families, details about the mosque developer’s lengthy criminal record have started to emerge.

    Please meet Mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal.


    Sharif El-Gamal is not only a liar but enjoys a criminal record going back to at least 1990.

    According to records uncovered by CBS 2 News in New York:

    · In 1990, he was arrested in Nassau County and pled guilty to disorderly conduct
    · In 1992, he pled guilty in Nassau to DWI and paid a $350 fine
    · In 1993, he pled guilty in Nassau to attempted petit larceny and paid a $100 fine
    · In 1994, arrested for disorderly conduct in Manhattan
    · In 1998, there was another Manhattan disorderly conduct arrest.
    · In 1999, yet another Manhattan disorderly conduct arrest

    A potential problem for El-Gamal is a deposition he gave in the assault case in October 2007. When asked if he was ever convicted or pled guilty to a crime, he replied “no.”

    El-Gamal owes over $227,000 in unpaid real estate taxes and a spokesman for the Department of Finance said interest will be added for each and every day its unpaid.
    His most recent arrest was in 2005 for assault on a man he met while working as a waiter at Serafina Restaurant, who sublet an apartment from his brother.

    He reportedly punched the man, breaking his nose and cheekbone and spit on him.
    El-Gamal first said he didn’t hit the man, but arrest documents obtained by CBS 2 showed he later conceded, “his face could have run into my hand.” Nice.

    Another question surrounding the debate is whether the Muslim cleric of the mosque, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, knew about El-Gamal’s criminal background and unpaid taxes before partnering with him.

  • eyelets

    The name “Cordoba” tells the whole story.  It’s a victory mosque.  There’s no need for more speculation.  It’s not about religious freedom.  It’s about power.
    Obama indicated that he was pro-mosque and langoliers came out in full force.
    If it was truly about religious freedom, then what Beck did on Saturday would be getting high marks in the media.  Instead, it’s a jealous hate fest against him. 
    If it was about religious freedom, the Duggars would not be open for discussion.  Instead, there is a no holds barred attack on them from everything to Mrs. Duggar’s hairstyle to… (well, I’ll just leave it at that).
    If it was really about religious freedom,  then the lighting of the Empire State building in light blue in honor of Mother Theresa would have been approved.  After all, they approved the color ‘red’ in honor of China. 
    Just a few of the endless examples. 

  • Breeze

    -  
     
     
    Ground Zero Mosque  
    Faces More Legal Hurdles
     
     
    National Review Online,  
    by Katrina Trinko     
     
    Original Article  
     
    8/31/2010   
     
    While it’s been widely reported that the Ground Zero mosque has no more legal obstacles preventing construction from starting on the Park51 site, the reality is a little messier (or to use the Left’s favorite term, “nuanced”). In fact, there’s at least three potential legal issues: unpaid property taxes (which could be a violation of developer Sharif el-Gamal’s lease agreement with New York utility company and site owner Con Edison), the need for the Metropolitan Transit Authority (MTA) to approve construction on the Park51 site (it’s above subway lines)….

  • kenoshamarge

    What everyone, pro or con on the mosques issue needs is for ALL the facts to be laid out so that people can make up their own minds. Knowledge is not only power, it gives us the “power” to make up our own minds based on facts not rhetoric.

    Because we do not have an honest or competent media and we sure as hell don’t have a competent or honest political class average citizens are left trying to disentangle all the b.s. from the facts. 

     Anyone that doesn’t want the mosque at ground zero is now called “Islamophobia, Nativist, and Bigot” by those who apparently have given themselves permission to judge others based on the “others” not agreeing with them. And never forget that they know what we’re really thinking no matter what we say. Yeah, right.

    I am sure that there are “some” are  bigots.

    I may qualify myself because I have no use whatsoever for any entity that masquerades as a “religion” while making chattels of it’s females. I tend to be a bit “picky” about that. Maybe even bigoted.

    Having been called racist and bigot so often by the Obots those terms no longer have meaning for me. And their opinion never did and never will.

    This “islamophobic” and “bigoted” country has over 2000 mosques within it’s borders. I’ve heard of churches and synagogues being torched but not a mosque. Has that happened? Even right after 9/11? If so, enlighten me.

    Until then I remain of the same opinion I have held from the beginning of this brouhaha, they have a “right” to build it there but it isn’t “right” to build it there.

  • Breeze

    -

    The imam must speak: Leader has to address
    legitimate questions about Islamic center

     
    New York Daily News,
    by Editorial   

    Original Article

    9/1/2010

    Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is soon to return from his State Department-funded trip intended to promote moderate Islam in the Mideast. He has said that when he returns, he will address the controversy over the so-called Ground Zero mosque directly. “As it is, my trust and conviction in the wisdom of the American people and political leadership and the American people at large is that they will act in accordance with the highest principles of our Constitution and the fundamental American belief in justice and protection of everybody’s rights,” Rauf told an English-language paper in Abu Dhabi.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Thanks, greenlantern – and you are absolutely right.  I could not believe Mara was jumping on this ridiculous bandwagon.  Orrin Hatch has now, too, comparing a Mormon temple to this group building the mosque there.  Wow – another stretch.

    Yes, Krauthammer did an excellent job of reminding Liasson exactly why this was a problem.

    Do they really not get it, or do they really see it this way?

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Exactly, Christopher – well said.  Ell Gamal has a rap sheet a mile long.  And then, as Hokma pointed out upthread, you have the imam himself claiming this as a litmus test.  Was that the idea all along?  Kinda seems like it to me given that statement…

    Great comment – thanks!

  • greenlantern

    Translation: “I assert my right to be a total a-hole about this thing”.

  • Breeze

    -
    O/T

    It’s another Tea Party win as
    Alaska’s Murkowski concedes


    McClatchy Newspapers,
    by Sean Cockerham

    Original Article

    9/1/2010 

    ANCHORAGE — Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski late Tuesday conceded the Republican primary election to Joe Miller, the Tea-Party backed challenger who maintained his Election Day lead after thousands of additional absentee and other ballots were counted through the day. “We know that we have outstanding votes to count in the primary but based on where we are right now I don’t see a scenario where the primary will turn out in my favor. And that is a reality that is before me at this time,” Murkowski said in a news conference….

  • elizabethrc

    Liasson is just another Juan Williams and while she has had her good moments, of late she seems to not think things through.  Add to that, her statements re the mosque are just dishonest.
    Fox needs to get rid of people who choose not to add to the discussion, and that would be Williams and Liasson.
    She is far too bright to not know what she is doing and how she is skewing the facts.

  • Christopher

    Eyelets is spot-on.

    Americans must educate themselves about the meaning of the name “Cordoba” and why it of all names, Cordoba was chosen.

    Back in 712, the Muslims conquered the town of Cordoba, Spain and converted it’s greatest Christian church into the Great Mosque of Cordoba.

    The lower Manhattan Islamic mosque is being pushed by President Obusha, Mayor Bloomberg and the NYTs as a harmless cultural center, which will include a gym, a day care center and a mosque when in fact, it’s the next phase in Sharia victory.

    Islam brought down the World Trade Center towers and now, a mere 600 feet from the site of the crime, a victory mosque will rise.

  • greenlantern

    “Do they really not get it, or do they really see it this way?”

    I think that is a really good question, maybe the central question. It comes from an irrational place, that’s for sure, and they seem to be isolating themselves further by keeping this up. I’m at a loss, but I haven’t understood anything the Left has done since Obama showed up.

  • kenoshamarge

    This should give those that hate the very idea of ordinary people belonging to an entity with “power” fits.

    The “idea” of a Tea Party has been hated almost as much as the Tea Parties themselves. The name-calling and the attacks on ordinary citizens expressing their outrage at what they see happening to their country is because we are all supposed to fit neatly into our little niches and vote as such. All the “R’s” vote for the “R” team and all the “D’s” vote for the “D” team and whoever scores the most points wins. And winning, but whatever ways or means is all that counts. Politics is very Vince Lombardi as played by the two major parties.

    But a funny thing happened on the way to the game, people began to decide that they didn’t like either team. And some joined an Independent Party and decided that they would, gasp, vote for people not parties and that they would most definitely like to see a whole lot of those “incumbiciles” go back home and try to live under the laws they forced on the rest of us.

    The Tea Parties are showing some muscle and I suspect that Astor-Turf Nanny Pelosi is peeing in her designer suits. I also suspect that she isn’t the only one; on both sides of the aisle. After all, Murkowski is from a “royal” political party in Alaska and Joe Miller, poor darlin, is a nobody. Whodathunkit?

  • cat

    ” That isn’t “tolerance,” that is stupidity.”

    That sums it up!

  • Sassy

    I will add my own comparisons.
    On one side are a former waiter, a dirt-bag developer, and a slumlord Imam and his wife.
    New York has Clinton, Schumer, Hildebrand, Rangel, Weiner, Patterson, Bloomberg, Koch, Cuomo.
    An “executive” in the White House could make a few phone calls and move this mosque.
    He could mention the facts that he is dealing with Iraq, Afghanistan, Wall Street jitters, huge deficits, job losses, mortgage defaults, healthcare revolt, and that the 9/11 anniversary approaches, followed by mid-term elections.
    Either historians have exaggerated presidential horse-trading, or we have the dumbest jackass to ever stand at a presidential podium!

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Thanks, greenlantern – and I’m with you – I haven’t understood them, either, once they threw their weight behind Obama.

    I saw the Imam this morning claiming this is essentially a litmus test regarding life for Muslims inside the US.  That kind of incendiary comment (and it really is, even if he said it in a calm manner) is EXACTLY what he claims others are doing – playing politics.  People could not have been clearer – it is not abt the religion, but abt the location.

    And elizabeth, you raise a good point.  I’m all for different perspectives, but yes, they should be clear thinkers.  Juan continues to show that he will fight for Obama no matter the facts contradicting his position, and Mara is sure moving in that direction, too…

  • FLDemFem

    OA, we can demand that the Saudis pay the blood debt for the dead of 9/11. It is an old ME custom, paying the families of the murdered to make up for the loss of their earning power. I also want to know if Rauf is an American citizen, and if not, why he is getting taxpayers funds so that he can go on being a slumlord in NJ and finance, with OUR money, this desecration of Ground Zero. I am getting to the point that I resent the idea of my tax dollars, paid for over 50 years, should go to non-citizens to finance something most of the country is against. NJ needs to indict Rauf and his wife as slumlords and the NYC comptroller needs to take them off the list of eligible for tax-payer funded loans from the state. Then they should both be deported.

  • Noogan

    Posting this here Breeze, because it’s OT from Amy’s blog post, but is sort of related to the Murkowski loss and the Tea Party win:-D

    Can  you believe the audacity of idiots like this writer at Mother Jones? I laughed out loud reading it. She’s frightening in her brainless-ness; stunning in her stupidity! She has discovered the “big lie” from Glenn Beck!! She has it on very good authority [snicker, snicker] that Glenn Beck LIED! LIED! LIED! on 8/28!!! He said he “held” the authentic George Washington document at the National Archives; but the National Archives [likely embarrassed at their breach of protocol, and protecting their reputation] says Beck could not have ‘held’ it; he only ‘beheld’ it!! 

    Oh, the uproar, the outrage! Ha! 

    http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/08/glenn-beck-george-washington-restoring-honor

  • FLDemFem

    And the spin on the original Cordoba mosque is ridiculous, and untrue. The press claims that the original Cordoba mosque was BOUGHT from the Christians after the Muslims took over that area of Spain. No mention of it being razed, the archbishop Eulogious being murdered and his body thrown to the dogs, and the mosque being built on the foundations of the destroyed church. They just don’t want to know. And they don’t want us to know. Good thing some of us studied history before it was “revisited and revised”.

  • carol haka, Matzo

    Beautiful photo of Sarah Palin at http://www.drudgereport.com

    She’s heading to Iowa.

    I say she can beat the crap out of Obama in any debate with her brain tied behind her and in high heels.

    It’s On!

    :-D

  • carol haka, Matzo

    1st Misogynistic Republican and they’re out!

    >:o

  • FLDemFem

    Um…. “the highest principles of our Constitution and the fundamental American belief in justice and protection of everybody’s rights” Unfortunately for the imam, those principles and rights are in direct conflict with the tenets of Islam which does not recognize the rights of women, or people of different faiths. Therefore, Islam is in direct conflict with the Constitution and its guarantee of equal rights for all.

  • West Virginia

    And let’s not forget that the Iman is a SLUMLORD who is under investigation accross the river in NJ and, therfore, nothing this scumbag says can or should be trusted.  When he gats back from his ME victory tour people need to ask (SHOUT) questions about his total distain for the tenants in the multitude of appartment buildings he has purchased, using OUR TAX DOLLARS, over the years.  He is just a common criminal.  All slumlords, him included, should be tossed into the Hudson tied to a chunk of the fallen WTC.

  • surfered

    Your argument would be more believable except for the threats and fire at a Mosque construction site in Murfreesboro, TN; a plastic pig put in the mailbox of a Sacremento Mosque with messages of “No Mosque in NYC” and “Remember 9-11″; and the Madera, CA Mosque that had a brick thrown thru it’s window and a sign left that read “No Temple for the God of Terrorism…”

    Just exactly how far from Ground Zero is acceptable for people who did not attack this country to build a house of worship on private property?

  • West Virginia

    But THIS Iman IS attacking Americans every day in his slumlord business.  He started this disrespectful trend years ago.  He needs to be shut down – now.

  • kenoshamarge

    I saw that bit with Liasson and thought she made a fool of herself. Juan Williams has to twist his logic so much to make Oblahblah look good that he’s lost all credibility. He’s another Alan Colmes. And worse I can say of no one.

    However much I disagree with these people I don’t want FOX to ‘get rid of them”. Simply put them up against other panel members like Charles Krauthammer and Steven Hayes and watch them make fools of themselves. They condemn themselves out of their own mouth.

    I am not in favor or getting rid of anyone just because I think they are asshats, liars or fools. That would leave the airwaves empty 99% of the time. It would also be against the free speech that I believe in so strongly. I don’t like what they say, but I think they MUST be allowed to say.

  • carol haka, Matzo

    Did people change their names or did we all of a sudden get a new group in?

    =-O

  • Noogan

    “I have no use whatsoever for any entity that masquerades as a ‘religion’ while making chattels of its femaies…” 

    Fine. Me either. But.

    Don’t paint an entire religion for the “fundamentalist” version of it.

    Evangelical Christians try to make women ‘chattel’ too; and so do some sects of the Mormon religion. What about the Catholic Church, which literally forbids women to have control over their own reproductive rights, by banning any form of birth control? In Israel, Jewish women have to have permission to divorce their husbands; they must get the Rabbi’s permission and their husbands’ permission. Fundamentalist Orthodox Jews are violently against equal rights for women. 

    There is a difference between fundamentalist and moderate Muslims. Just as there is a vast difference between orthodox and more ‘secular’ Jews, and between Baptists and Episcopalians. In Iran, prior to the Islamic Revolution in ’79 [which WE actually caused by our overthrow of a democratically elected leader, Mosaddeq in '53, and installation of a dictator, the Shah] there were many women doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists. In Iraq, there were [and still are] many women doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists. 

    In the US, we should be focused on making our Constitution strong so that we can withstand any challenge to it; not undermining it further by joining in erosion of First Amendment rights to freedom of religion OR restriction of private property rights, based on demogoguery from neo-cons who are stirring up and fomenting anti-Muslim bias to further their own agenda. 

  • creeper

    So, Noogan, when our Constitution runs afoul of Sharia law, which should yield?  The two are incompatible, you know.

  • HARP

    I`m still HARP…….Infidel extraordinaire.

  • kenoshamarge

    No one that I know of has claimed that there aren’t bigots who don’t want a mosque built anywhere. Let them speak for themselves because they certainly don’t speak for the majority of Americans.

    Oh the horror of someone putting a plastic pig in a mailbox with a message. And such “hate” slogans as “remember 9/11.

    Most of us have no problem with a mosque being built, as have over 2000 across the country, in NYC.

    We just do not want a new mosque built where debris from 9/11 landed and on what to many is hallowed ground.

    Always, always those that would try to make bigots of any one that doesn’t agree with them twist what is being said.

    The constitution allows, indeed mandates that these people have a “right” to build their mosque on this sight. Common decency and sensitivity and a real intent to build bridges says that it isn’t the “right” place to build.

    I know it’s hard for the bigoted left to get their brains around the truth when it doesn’t fit their perverted beliefs that ordinary people who don’t agree with them are racists, bigots, ignorant and fools but try harder.

    You don’t need to prove to anyone that some bigots exist. We knew that. There are some bigots on both sides of most arguments. We know that too.

    You just have a myopia that only allows you to see bigotry when you choose. Dishonesty is not a good way to make an argument. But it could take you far in politics or media where those are looked for attributes.

  • Sassy

    surfered, your argument would be more believable except for the fact that over the years, there have been numerous Christian churches burned to the ground by nut-jobs.

  • Noogan

    As I have said before, it is about decency and compassion for those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero, and for the whole country, which may not ever fully heal from that attack on our soil.

    I don’t find the liberals’ arguments very persuasive either. I find the information on Sharif’s background quite relevant and hope that Imam Rauf and his wife will distance themselves from this man’s property simply because of his record; it does them no good to be associated with him if he’s a slippery con man. 

    But in the end, whether I like it or not, whether I support it or not, and notwithstanding my sympathy for the pain and suffering of the victims of 9-11 [some of whom were after all, Musim], I have to support what I believe in the most: The Constitution, and private property rights. I’d be disavowing my oath, sworn to military service, if I decided that this issue, or that issue, or some other issue I don’t even know about yet, should take precedence over the one document that makes us who we are in the world: The Constitution. 

    What does the Constitution say about this issue? Does it say that Muslims shouldn’t build a mosque 2 blocks from Ground Zero because terrorists attacked that area on Sept. 11, 2001? No. It doesn’t say that. It says that the government cannot establish religion, nor can it prevent religious expression. 

    So, basically, we’re left with the fact that no matter how much people are offended, or upset, or alarmed, the facts are that legally, they have the right to locate a mosque on that site, because the local ordinances permit it; and legally, they have the right to freedom of expression of religion, because the Constitution permits it. 

    So, the arguments by you that it’s an affront to the victims of 9-11, are no more persuasive to me than the arguments by Mara Liasson of NPR. 

  • jbjd

    The major distinction that comes to mind is this:  neither Jews nor Gentiles advocate death as an appropriate response to such feminine displays of ‘disrespect.’

  • creeper

    Marge, you got me to wondering, so I went looking.  There have been five instances (at least that’s what I could find) of mosques being burned in the US:

    September, 1994 – Yuba City, CA

    June 3, 2005 – Victorville, CA

    February 9, 2008 – Columbia, TN

    August 27, 2008 – Murfreesboro, TN (under construction, damage to equipment)

    July 5, 2010 – Marietta, GA

    There may be more but time precludes further searching.

    The last event is noteworthy for the fact that a “devout Muslim” who attended that mosque has been arrested and charged with the arson.

    No deaths in any of these incidents.  All took place at night when the facilities were empty.

    Worldwide, it happens more frequently.  The UK has seen several instances of violence against mosques.  When the Brits finally woke up to what was happening in Great Britain, they woke up mad.  

    Interestingly, Muslims also burn their own.

    And Christian churches.

  • lightacandle

    Maybe — and I’m just saying MAYBE — the subway lines that run under the proposed Ground Zero mosque are the reason the mosque “has” to be at this location.

    – - – - – - – - – - – - – -
     Before any building can go forward, the developers also must get approval from the MTA because the 2 and 3 subway lines run under a portion of the Park Place property, The Post has learned.

    El-Gamal‘s spokesperson insisted to The Post that the taxes had been paid and that the “subway lines do not pose a problem.”

    http://tinyurl.com/299bp8m
    - – - – - – - – - – - – - -

    Think how many New Yorkers could be killed in the subways that run under this mosque if “anything” “accidentally” “happened” to blow up this proposed mosque.

  • tango

    Well if there weren’t any dissenting opinions on Fox, it’s be like MSNBC.  I think Liasson has gone more left since she was slammed by liberals for appearing on Fox News. I noticed she’s not on nearly as much anymore. I don’t have a problem with her or Williams because they are liberals and are supposed to give dissenting opinion.

    I want to ask, well if there’s a mosque already 10 blocks from GZ, why build another one so close? Is it really needed?

  • ~~JustMe~~

    Did I hear right he is coming back early from ME?

  • ~~JustMe~~

    ME where he is right now sufered!

  • Sassy

    In a previous discussion, Mara Liasson did point out that churches come up against zoning laws frequently in this country.
    Charles Krauthammer is the only public person that I have seen address the landing gear going into this site.
    This building would seem to be an ideal location for a museum. There must be volumes of data on the original architecture and construction of the Towers, as well as that of the reconstruction.
    A museum could also have a separate, tasteful memorium to all the rescue units who sacrificed so much, and the histories of their units.
    That would be an appropriate use of this site, and the historical significance could attract worldwide visitors.

  • tango

    Well I love how the MSM paints Miller as a Snowbunny wackadoo. The guy graduated from West Point, is an Ivy League Law School graduate and is a combat veteran. Oh boy, what a hick.  I don’t know how he can even show his face in public with that backround. :-[  

    Joe Miller far outshines Obama in the resume department and totally throws the leftists for a loop with their “only Tea Partiers elect crazy, uneducated, right wing wackos”.

  • kenoshamarge

    I wonder how many churches and/or synagogues have been burned during that time span. I know that some time ago, I’m not sure exactly which year, there were some churches burned down south. I only became aware of it because on of them was the church that Reggie White, who played for the Green Bay Packers was involved with one of them. (I’m not sure if he was the “preacher” at that church or not.)

    My point, and I often lose it when I try to “splain” my thinking, is that religious intolerence is not just for one religion or one group. Bigots of all races and cultures and stripe exist. Lately it seems, at least to me,  that only those who don’t like the Islamic culture, and I’m one, are derided or attacked for their bigotry.

     That in itself speaks volumes to me of the sincerity of those who call names instead of making a credible argument. JMO

  • Diana L. C. Hazelut Nut Thin Cracker

    Call me a conspiracy theorist, and here the Jackies of the world will jump in, but I’ve been saying all along that this mosque is some high-level insurance policy agreed on by the human powers that be to prevent there being another attack by the Islamist fundamentalists.  I know I read where Rauf said something to the effect that the mosque would prevent such an event from happening again.  The “freedom of religion” defense is a cover for some short of international deal that has already been made by people who believe they know best for us who are so lowly.

  • tango

    Well racial intolerance isn’t limited to Muslims. In fact, they’re only a small amount of the total number of hate crimes:

    “Hate crimes directed against Muslims remain relatively rare, notwithstanding the notoriety gained by incidents such as recent vandalism at the Madera Islamic Center. Jews, lesbians, gay men and Caucasians, among others, are all more frequently the target of hate crimes, FBI records show. Reported anti-Muslim crimes have declined over recent years, though they still exceed what occurred prior to the 9-11 terrorist attacks.

    In 2008, 105 hate crime incidents against Muslims were reported nationwide. There were 10 times as many incidents that were recorded as anti-Jewish during the same year, the most recent for which figures are available.” 

    http://www.sacbee.com/2010/08/27/2989095/fbi-data-hate-crimes-against-muslims.html#ixzz0yIAwXoNZ

  • felizarte

    Call me islamophobic or bigoted anytime!.  I make no apologies for my intolerant attitude towards sexism.  I’ll be adding to the list as they come up.  In the meantime, that “thing” should not be built near GZ.

  • Touchet

    Actually I kinda like the first poster’s idea.  If they are building the mosque right next to ground zero as a symbol of Islam’s triumph over the evil westerners, then building another set of world trade towers shadowing over the mosque, would definately destroy that symbolism.  Something tells me, the mosque wouldn’t be so popular then.

  • Christopher

    Opposition to this monument to Sharia radicalism is solid and growing.

    9/11 Family Concerns Outweigh Muslim Right To Mosque, New York State Voters Tell Quinnipiac University Poll; 71 Percent Say Cuomo Should Probe Mosque Finances

    http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1318.xml?ReleaseID=1493

    By a 71 – 21 percent majority, voters agree “that because of the opposition of Ground Zero relatives, the Muslim group should voluntarily build the mosque somewhere else.”

  • felizarte

    Noogan,  you have gone beyond defending the second amendment of the Constitution to a defender of Islam.  If you are Muslim, just say so.

  • lightacandle

    But most of the terrorists are free-lancers and are not signatories to this “agreement.”

  • FLDemFem

    The difference between Catholicism, fundemental Christian sects, and Judaism is that you can leave the religion without being stoned to death for apostasy. Freedom of choice..go with our rules or leave the religion. Following the restrictive rules of some religions is a choice the followers of that religion make. There is no death penalty for deciding otherwise. In Islam, there is a death penalty for leaving Islam. Look it up. 

  • lightacandle

    I bow to no one in my love and respect for our Constitution, so I just wish some of the people claiming this mosque at this location is a First Amendment issue would READ the Constitution.

    The Constitution of the United States defines what the GOVERNMENT can and cannot do; it says nothing about what is going on here.

    As far as I know, no city, state or federal government entity has passed any law or even done anything to obstruct the building of this mosque at this site. What is happening is that ordinary Americans — who have just a many rights as anyone else — are ASKING the leaders of this mosque to re-think their plan and build their mosque a few blocks further away from Ground Zero.

    There are about 100 Muslim mosques in New York City and I have never heard one word of opposition to them; it is just this one mosque’s location that is an issue.

    The site of this proposed mosque is actually not three or two blocks from Ground Zero, it IS PART of Ground Zero.

    On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, terrorists hijacked United Airlines Flight 175 as part of their attack on the World Trade Center’s Towers. They crashed the plane into the South Tower, triggering the destruction of the tower. The plane penetrated through the tower, and part of the plane’s landing gear and fuselage came out the north side of the tower and crashed through the roof of 45–47 Park Place, and through two of its floors. The plane parts destroyed three floor beams, and severely compromised the building’s internal structure. At the time, the building was leased to the Burlington Coat Factory. That is the site of the proposed mosque. http://tinyurl.com/2e3r55e

    When the Towers collapsed, the ashes and dust from the buildings — and from the bodies trapped inside the buildings — spread to many blocks around the site, all of which became the eternal graveyard of those people.

    No, the government should not take any role in this, but if the Muslims who want to erect this mosque truly want to build bridges of understanding, they could best start by demonstrating some sensitivity to the people who lost so much that day.

    The building of this mosque at or close to Ground Zero is NOT a Constitutional issue, since no government — city, state or federal — is making any laws or or taking any action to prohibit this mosque.

    Too bad our Constitutional law lecturer president hasn’t read the Constitution lately (or maybe ever), because it would be helpful if our Gutless Wonder president would READ the Constitution to refresh his memory about what it says the government can and cannot do. He might find cause to re-think his policies about:  (1) warrantless wiretapping, (2) indefinite detention (imprisonment) without any charges or trial, (3) the fraudulent use of the “state secrets” ploy to avoid being found out, (4) his stance on the Salazar v. Buono case, (5) his continuing use of the rendition of prisoners to foreign countries where they may or may not be tortured, (6) his so-called health “reform” package that requires all Americans to buy a shoddy product (health insurance) from a private company but puts NO limit on what that company can charge for its shoddy product, (7) his persecution and prosecution of government whistle-blowers, (the targeted assassination of Americans abroad without any trial or charges (just the word of the president) … the list of Obama’s UN-Constitutional actions goes on and is long.

    There is NO Constitutional issue involved in ordinary citizens ASKING the leaders of this mosque to choose a different location a few blocks further away from Ground Zero.

  • Mr. Natural

    >>> On one side are a former waiter

    As was the  late Ho Chi Minh a New York waiter in his early life.

    You’d better watch those waiters; they might takeover the world otherwise.

  • ~~JustMe~~

    Don’t paint an entire religion for the “fundamentalist” version of it.  

    So explain to us the difference between a Muslim fundamentalist” who flies planes into the World Trade centre
    OR
    “Muslim fundamentalist” who stone women, gladly torture women, mutilate them and demand they live a life of submission?
    The only difference is one set woke up one morning and blasted a huge hole through the heart of America.
    The others live daily behind closed doors and keep their horrific actions behind the drapes, they hang in the front windows!

  • PamFl

    Rauf assures us the purpose of the mosque and cultural center is to foster understanding between Islam/arabs and other religions/groups. How is this possible when only muslims will be allowed in the building??

  • tango

    So what?  They are legally entitled to but if they really really wanted the good will of Americans  and to generate a feeling of openess and moderation, they wouldn’t build the Mosque there.  

    What is gained if they do? Do you think the area will be better off, the city safer, NYC citizens happier, the families of 911 victims comforted?

    Just because I’m legally entitled to doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to buy the home next to the family who lost their wife/mother to my brother who crashed into her while drunk driving.  His 4th DWI, killed someone and he only spent 3 years in jail for it.  So he got out of prison, married and has a child while their their family is devastated.  So yes, I can buy that house.  My parents can buy that house. We can all meet togather on holidays and laugh and party and go on with our lives and hope that the neighbors have gotten over the rage and devastation they felt after learning their wife & mother was killed.  It’s not like it’s OUR fault so why should we be held accountable for what my brother did or even ashamed of it?  They just need to get over it and realize I only want to move next door out of a display of friendship and tolerance.

    I’d never in a million years do that to the other family and justify it by saying it’s my right so let me go ahead and do it.  I’m not that fucking selfish. I figure kindness is never wasted and in the scheme of who’s has been wronged more, they win so I will defer to their feelings. 

  • tango

    So what?  They are legally entitled to but if they really really wanted the good will of Americans  and to generate a feeling of openess and moderation, they wouldn’t build the Mosque there.    
     
    What is gained if they do? Do you think the area will be better off, the city safer, NYC citizens happier, the families of 911 victims comforted?  
     
    Just because I’m legally entitled to doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to buy the home next to the family who lost their wife/mother to my brother who crashed into her while drunk driving.  His 4th DWI, killed someone and he only spent 3 years in jail for it.  So he got out of prison, married and has a child while their their family is devastated.  So yes, I can buy that house.  My parents can buy that house. We can all meet togather on holidays and laugh and party and go on with our lives and hope that the neighbors have gotten over the rage and devastation they felt after learning their wife & mother was killed.  It’s not like it’s OUR fault so why should we be held accountable for what my brother did or even ashamed of it?  He’s sober now and given up drinking. That certainly should comfort them to know he’s no longer a radical drunk.  They just need to get over their loss and realize I only want to move next door out of a display of friendship and tolerance.  
     
    I’d never in a million years do that to the other family and justify it by saying it’s my right so let me go ahead and do it.  I’m not that fucking selfish. I figure kindness is never wasted and in the scheme of who’s has been wronged more, they win so I defer to their feelings. 

  • Breeze

    -

    Noogan,

    Let’s face it, by telling the TRUTH from the beginning, Beck outsmarted them
    all:  there was NO ulterior motive, the rally was NOT political, etc. etc.

    The spin out there WILL MAKE YOUR HEAD SPIN….
    there is so much of it!!!

    They are digging and digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole….

    Especially the “reverend” Sharpton:

    http://biggovernment.com/bschaeffer/2010/08/31/glenn-beck-is-bad-for-al-sharptons-business/

  • kinthenorthwest

    To me its a matter of principles…No matter what nationality or religion was behind the twin towers they should not be building any type of building that honors them or their beliefs that close to the Twin Towers site.
    I wonder how many Christian churches the Muslims would like build near their mosques in their countries. 
    From what I understand, most middle east countries that are predominately Muslim will not tolerate any other religion in their country. How many Christians and other religions  have been beheaded/killed and/or jailed in predominate Muslim countries for just practicing another religion besides Muslim.
     
    What America is letting  get away with in our country is just preposterous. 
     
    Illegal Immigrants, and people who outright Hate our country have more rights it seems than the really true Americans

  • creeper

    Wasn’t one our our trolls arguing last week that the majority of New Yorkers supported the mosque?  So much for THAT idea.

  • Onofre’s arm

    Pam, I don’t know about you, but this whole mosque fiasco has certainly fostered a greater understanding of Islam for me and a lot of other Americans. It’s a good “heads up” for us with regard to Muslim intentions.

  • arabella trefoil

    Well done, Christopher.

  • kinthenorthwest

    To me it’s a matter of principles…No matter what nationality or religion was behind the twin towers they should not be building any type of building that honors them or their beliefs that close to the Twin Towers site.  
    I wonder how many Christian churches the Muslims would like build near their mosques in their countries.   
    From what I understand, most middle east countries that are predominately Muslim will not tolerate any other religion in their country. How many Christians and other religions  have been beheaded/killed and/or jailed in predominate Muslim countries for just practicing another religion besides Muslim.  
       
    What America is letting people, especially non-citizens and people who don’t give a rat’s A$$ about our country  get away with in our country is just outrageously preposterous.   
       
    Illegal Immigrants, and people who outright Hate our country have more rights it seems than the really true Americans who care and love our American Nation.
    IN GOD WE TRUST!!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!
    I HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN!!!!   (I made my Avatar and it has hung on my wall since the week of 9/11).

  • lightacandle

    Once this mosque-slash-”cultural center” is built, it will have tax-free status, since the property is owned by a religious group. It will be FREE from any property taxes.

    Therefore, I think other taxpayers have a RIGHT to know where the leaders of this mosque are getting their money to build this edifice, and from whom they are getting the money.

    I guarantee you could go to my church and see the books about where the money is coming from; so why are the leaders of THIS mosque so determined we and the New York City and State governments cannot see their books?

  • Breeze
  • Diana L. C. Hazelut Nut Thin Cracker

    Good analogy!  The lefties won’t get it, though.  It’s all ideology as far as they’re concerned and failed ideology at that, but don’t tell the vanguard intelligentsia that their theories have failed many previous times and are currently failing badly.

  • lightacandle

    Let’s talk about Constitutional rights and the FRED PHELPS family.

    The FRED PHELPS family members have every Constitutional right to attend the funerals of slain military personnel and hold signs that say the Americans military personnel are traitors, scumbags (and a lot of other vile things).

    The Fred Phelps family can scream insults at the broken-hearted family members standing next to the coffins of their loved ones who died in the wars.

    But, we have RIGHTS too.

    We have the right to ASK them to cease and desist.

    We even have the right to hate what they are doing.

    It is the same with the leaders of the Ground Zero mosque. There is NO Constitutional issue involved as they have every right to build at this location. But since it will cause so much sorrow to those who lost loved one in that extremist Muslims’ attack on Sept. 11, 2001, it would go a long way toward building bridges of understanding (which is what they CLAIM they want to do) if they would respect that suffering and build elsewhere — a few blocks further away from Ground Zero.

    And the Fred Phelps family could also take THEIR Constitutional rights a few blocks further away from the funerals of the dead American military personnel.

    We don’t all have to do everything we have a Constitutional right to do; sometimes it’s nice to be thoughtful — and respectful — of other people and not go out of our way to cause them pain.

  • kinthenorthwest

    TY RRA For Another Good Article.

  • Talk2ThePaw

    And don’t forget that MObutt paid a visit to the Cordoba Victory Mosque while in Spain.  Most likely raising money or passing off money already raised.

  • JeannieB

    I think you’re absolutely right.

    It’s certainly no coincidence that the mosque section of their planned building will occupy the top 2 floors – and it was the top 2 floors of the Burlington coat building that were damaged by the 9/11 attack plane.

    This story just gets more and more sick with every detail that comes out. 

  • Crackerjack -Obamastahn Rebel Resistance

    no not death, but cut off their thingy,,,, which too some men is death

  • EllenD

    She visited Cordoba? I thought it was the Alhambra.
    link please?

  • Onofre’s arm

    Ellen, it was definitely the Cordoba mosque and not the Alhambra palace. I saw a picture of her there, and I’ve been to both of them, there’s not mistaking the two, their styles and architecture are quite different. The Alhambra is one of my favorite sites in Spain by the way.

  • Crackerjack -Obamastahn Rebel Resistance

    Yup and then they can blame it on dirty ole’ christians who are inslamaphobes. two birds with one stone

  • Onofre’s arm

    Ellen, it was definitely the Cordoba mosque and not the Alhambra palace. I saw a picture of her there, and I’ve been to both of them, there’s no mistaking the two, their styles and architecture are quite different. The Alhambra is one of my favorite sites in Spain by the way.

  • Bruce

    (Sigh) Where do you people keep your heads? Al Qaeda is to Islam as Nazi is to Christian. Bush and Cheney went to great lengths after the 9/11 attacks to emphasize that the US responses were not directed against Islam, but against the terrorists. Now, any significan expression of Islam close to Ground Zero is seen as offensive in spite of the fact that lots of Muslims live in the area. If you really want to go after something offensive, why not go after the half-dozen strip clubs that are within two blocks of Ground Zero? The “Mosque” won’t even look like a mosque; it’s a community center with a prayer room. All of this is just another example of unseen forces whipping up xenophobia. Ever wonder why we interned the US citizens of Japanese descent during WWII even though they posed no more threat than citizens of German descent? Take a look around.

  • EllenD

    In a previous discussion, Mara Liasson did point out that churches come up against zoning laws frequently in this country.

    In LA an orthodox synagogue got permission to build in a well-to-do Jewish neighborhood. Shortly after it opened, its Jewish neighbors were up in arms claiming that they were not made aware of how much the traffic and parking would affect their houses and their house values.
    If I were a neighboring building to the proposed mosque, I would object because they are creating a building, which by its nature and location, is going to attract violent extremists who oppose its location. That would put my property in jeopardy. Certainly., it is bound to raise my insurance rates astronomically.

  • EllenD

    I know I read where Rauf said something to the effect that the mosque would prevent such an event from happening again. 

    Sounds like blackmail.

  • EllenD

    The IRS can see the books of any church to determine its non-profit status.

  • jmm915

    Well, no we don’t.

  • lightacandle

    What have you got against strippers?

    I don’t recall that any strippers flew airplanes into the World Trade Towers to kill “infidels.”

    We KNOW where strippers get their money; do you KNOW where the leaders of this mosque are getting their money, and from whom, and for what?

  • Onofre’s arm

     “Where do you people keep your heads? Al Qaeda is to Islam as Nazi is to Christian”

    This is contemptible bullshit Bruce! Al Qaeda are definitely Muslims, but Nazis were NOT Christians. Crack open a history book! Start with the most detailed account of Nazi Germany, “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich“. Go the the chapter titled “Life in the Third Reich” and go to the subsection titled “The Persecution of the Christian Churches”, and read the damn thing! If you not a complete brainless fool, you might just be disabused of the ridiculously tired cliche of Christian Nazis.

  • Talk2ThePaw

    Saying he will answer questions is a partial truth.  Cutting his trip short?  Most likely.  1st he will answer the question about the back taxes. The back taxes will most likely have been miracuously paid upon his return from his taxpayer funded fundraising trip.  And that is why he will be cutting his trip short, he has raised all the the funds needed for his victory mosque.

  • Onofre’s arm

    “Where do you people keep your heads? Al Qaeda is to Islam as Nazi is to Christian”  
     
    This is contemptible bullshit Bruce! Al Qaeda are definitely Muslims, but Nazis were NOT Christians. Crack open a history book! Start with the most detailed account of Nazi Germany, “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich“. Go the the chapter titled “Life in the Third Reich” and go to the subsection titled “The Persecution of the Christian Churches”, and read the damn thing! If you’re not a complete brainless fool, you might just be disabused of the ridiculously tired cliche of Christian Nazis.(Sigh)

  • Talk2ThePaw

    Just wondering, is there a cleansing ritual in Islam?  If not why not just get farmers to bring truck loads of pigs to NY and release them inside this “sacred” mosque?  Since they already hold prayer services there would not the ravishing of the building by swine (other than themselves) not make the site unclean and therefore not suitable for their victory mosque?  Just wondering.

  • oowawa

    “What have you got against strippers?”

    But . . . but . . . they take their clothes off–burqas, veils, and everything!!!

  • kafir

    Iman Rauf  is a recalcitrant. What is his ultimate intention?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwq04_KhCeI&feature=related

  • Onofre’s arm

    Or better yet, once the new twin towers are completed, let Rauf and his pals build the mosque directly to the west of the towers, so that when they face east and bow toward Mecca, they’ll also be bowing the the iconic symbols of American Capitalism.

  • oowawa

    And they force men to get lustful thoughts, against their wills!

  • lightacandle

    But by the time the IRS takes a look, the building will be built.

    WHY won’t the leaders of this mosque just tell us; it might calm at least some opponents down.

  • oowawa

    And they force men to get impure thoughts, against their wills!

  • lightacandle

    Yes, it does.

    Sounds like Imam Feisal’s version of the horse’s head in the bed?

  • Onofre’s arm

    Oowawa, just like infidels aren’t allowed in mosques, Muslims aren’t allowed in strip clubs. The friction of a lap dance might set off their suicide vests. 

  • jwrjr

    “I am not in favor or getting rid of anyone just because I think they are asshats, liars or fools. That would leave the airwaves empty 99% of the time.”

    Government, too.

  • lizzy

    I like that idea; they could construct an island in the Hudson River so they could have total control of access.  They could float up and down with the tides and the passing river traffic.  What a visual. Their prayer calls would compete with the river sounds: seagulls, foghorns, fireboats escorting cruise liners from the harbor.

  • Annie Soda Cracker

    You notice that as soon as the symbolism of Cordoba was outed to the public, they changed it to “Park 51 Community Center”.  Uh, right.  That told me all I need to know about their lame marketing attempts.  They’re full of it.

  • Annie Soda Cracker

    Yes, the Christiam church burned by Cuz Odinga’s followers in Kenya also took 200 worshipers with it…burned alive.

  • margaret

    Well done, thanks for being a continuing voice of sanity on this issue.

  • Annie Soda Cracker

    Yes, carol, the good ole boys try to ignore her at their peril.

  • Annie Soda Cracker

    You can bet that they will attend this mosque if it should be built.

  • oowawa

    So true, Onofre’s arm.  My muse speaketh:

    Imam Rauf, the great Muslim hero,
    Commissioned a mosque at Ground Zero.
    “If we can’t build our shrine,
    You infidel swine
    Will burn, as did Rome under Nero.”

    I’ve got to get a life . . .

  • trixta

    What is “moderate Islam”?  I think this designation all relative.

  • trixta

    Someone needs to interview the man El-Gamal assaulted.

  • trixta

    “There is a difference between fundamentalist and moderate Muslims.”

    I’d sure like to have those differences clearly spelled out by those who want the Mosque built.  I’m against religious fundamentalisms of any kind  – especially those that advocate gender apartheid, stoning, genital mutilation, etc.. 

  • kafir

    Wow! Iman Rauf sure is the hero of the Muslims if Ground Zero mosque is allowed to go ahead!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEuJimaumW4

  • EllenD

    Right on OA – The Nazis didn’t do their nasty business in the NAME OF Christianity.

  • EllenD

    Um – Get your history right, Bruce.We interned Germans too.
    http://www.traces.org/germaninternees.html
    and Italians as well.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American_internment
    It’s called being at war.

  • tango

    “If you really want to go after something offensive, why not go after the half-dozen strip clubs that are within two blocks of Ground Zero?”

    Don’t worry, once the Mosque is built, I’m sure they’ll do just that.  They will complain how their religious sensibilities are violated by seeing such filth and demand it be driven out of the area.

    Look in France. Muslims break the law and the police ignore it because it’s easier then enforcing the law and they don’t want to offend anyone. And you wonder why Muslim neighborhoods practice Shariah law over French law? It’s because they know they can.

    http://www.breitbart.tv/paris-authorities-look-other-way-as-muslims-block-streets-for-weekly-prayers/

    I like the guy who says it was not political correct to criticize Muslims so they didn’t and now it’s not Muslims submitting to France and it’s laws but the other way around (France submitting to Muslims and Shariah Law). And the Muslim woman who says Muslims only submit to GOD, noone else.  So why would Muslims here in America be any different? 

  • greenlantern

    Righto! The Mittster sure got slapped down quickly when he dissed her awhile ago–then took it back as fast as he could.

  • greenlantern

    I don’t think any burnings are justified. I do think you reap what you sow. How are the mosque proponents inviting respect and tolerance? We can abhor iolence but we cannot protect fools from their own karma.

  • lizzy

    Muslims do not live in the area.  It is a highly commercial area with very little residential space.  Therefore Muslims do not live in the area.  New York City is very diverse ethnically but the population of Muslims is relatively small. Large populations of Chinese, Koreans, Jews, Blacks, but not so many Muslims.

  • lizzy

    Yes and all those unclean women might ditract them from their pleasures with young boys. Article was in yesterday’s Huffy Poo; sorrry I don’t have the sad link.

  • kinthenorthwest

    Bruce you might want to take a look at your history of WWII. We interned Germans, Italians and Japanese.  Around 1/3 of the Japanese interned  refused to sign loyality oaths and wanted to actually return to Japan to help out their mother country.

  • greenlantern

    Don’t bring me down, BBBRRRRUUUUUUCE!

  • greenlantern

    I, for one, don’t need a link to tell me Muslims just might not like women so much!

  • Noogan

    Yes, you’re right, Creeper. The Constitution and Sharia are most definitely “incompatible.” [to understate the difference! lol!] 


    Of course, in my world, The CONSTITUTION rules, and Sharia yields. I can’t conceive of living under a fundamentalist religious leadership–not anywhere in the world, for any reason, in any way, shape or form. I would leave for another country if I found myself living in one; either that, or I’d fight and die if I had to to protect the Constitution from Sharia.

    I cannot live in a fundamentalist religious leadership. Any kind of one, and certainly one in which Sharia was the law. 

  • Noogan

    WTF? Are you really this stupid Felizarte? What is it about religious tolerance you don’t get? 

    I’m not a Muslim. I’m not a Catholic either. I’m not Jewish, Baptist, or Mormon either. I’m not a member of ANY religious organization, thank you very much. I’m quite spiritual; but I don’t follow religious tenets very well, as you ought to have figured out by now, since I”m about as contrarian as it gets. 

    My argument–for the thousandth time for slow learners–is that there are moderate Muslims and there are extremist wackos. Moderate Muslims are everywhere; they live and work and raise families in this country without threatening anyone. They just want to observe their religion same as Jews; same as Catholics; same as Mormons; same as Episcopalians [who are also fighting their extremist fundamentalist wing recently]. 

    There are religious extremists in ALL RELIGIONS. I don’t hold with any of it, preferring to believe that God is Love, not Hate. 

  • Katmoon

    Noogan, you don’t ever f-ing learn do you? Knock it off-Do not come here  and start with calling Felizarte stupid. You really are a drag on the site when you start this. You go on a tear amd don’t have the good sense to voice your opinion(as I noticed you did on the thread regarding the state deptartment/un and Hillary). No problem there. Just because you see some “likes” doesn’t give you license to go down that nasty road you so freely walk right on to, when you disagree. 

  • Katmoon

    I for one, am not going to sit and watch this show yet again, seen it reruns too many times.

  • EllenD

    Thanks OA. I’ll take your word for it as you’ve been to both.

  • EllenD

    And the Alhambra is one of my favorites too.

  • seezrif@hotmail.com

    The families of 9/11 tried to sue Saudi Arabia but the then solicitor general Elana Kagan, appointed by Obama, did not allow the case to be heard by the supreme court…..Now we have her, regretfully, as a supreme court justice. 

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