Gibbs Needs To Do His Homework Before Talking

Why does this White House think the American people are this stupid?  Just because BHO got 53% of the American votes doesn’t mean they didn’t learn their lesson.

I think they rely on people to forget.  This American has got news for this administration–I never forget. 

me neither. 

Robert Gibbs and Barack Obama go way back.  Gibbs lies and Obama swears to it.
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/g/robert_gibbs/index.html

Gibbs sure believes in the Liberation theory: Speak Obamaese® or Get Liberated (from the WH)…

Who is Gibbs’ scriptwriter, Lewis Carroll?

Donjo said: Frankly, it’s a topic that shouldn’t even be discussed – isn’t that what Freedom of Religion is all about? 

You’re wrong Donjo!  Definitely should be discussed especially when that belief system holds the possibility of influencing public policy, in the same way that it is important to know one’s criminal history, educational background or anything else that might affect a present or potential govt. official.

I think Gibbs doesn’t even know what Black Liberation Theology IS!

Their problem is team Obama can’t think on their feet… and if Alinsky didn’t think of it first and leave scripts they are screwed. Well, Alinsky never foresaw this. So, they riducule Beck just like Alinsky said… but the trouble is Beck is right and everybody knows it… so ridiculing the opposition just makes these folks look even more pathetic than they are… if that is even possible.

“Reporting for duty”… need I say more? That flopped as bad as “hope and change” will. To pull off hope and change they would have had to actually build up hope instead of destroying it. But these guys don’t build anything up… they just tear down.

Normally, I’d agree that religion is pretty much irrelevant – except when the candidate himself/herself has made it a talking point (as Obama has).Obama’s made it a point to cozy up to the evangelicals (palling around with Donnie McClurkin and Rick Warren, etc.)  and talk about how his religion has influenced his decision-making (such as it is). He opened the door. Once he’s done that, it’s a fair question.

Personally, I don’t care if he sacrifices kittens to Cthulhu at the vernal equinox.

Katmoon,

How was the interview?

Methinks he’s zebra in color(black and white) and in religion (Black Liberation and Muslim)
He’s whatever suits his purposes at any time.  oh, maybe he’s a chameleon, not a zebra.

Kbentleyis

How do you know he got 53% of the vote?  The DNC and his camp cheated in the primary to make certain that he got the nomination instead of Hillary (despite Hillary winning the popular vote), so, what makes you think the same cheating tactics weren’t used in the General Election?

I live for the day the American people realize that their votes are counted any way the party leaders want them to be counted.  The will of the people is but an illusion, but the truth is, if you can’t see your vote being counted out in the open on election night at the precinct, then you have no way of knowing if your vote counted as cast.

I don’t believe the people elected obama.  The power elite, with the help of their stooges, the DNC, placed him in the WH.

So, talking about a president’s religious preferences is more important than discussing a gigantic “recession,” two endless wars, a crumbling infrastructure, 
joblessness as a permanent fixture, BP, the theft of our treasury by big biz, etc. etc. etc.  I doubt it.  Religious preference has to be waaaaaaaay down on the chart. 

Especially if “he sacrifices kittens” or any creature, including figuratively, people.

The Prez’s religion is very important in this case- liberation theology is based on Marxist principles- they co-opted the New Testament and with some fancy verbal machinations placed Jesus’ humanity above his divinity-they replaced “my kingdom is not of this earth” with heaven on earth through social programs-Pope John Paul II always wrote and spoke about the danges of liberation theology in creating totalitarian governments-I am Catholic and liberation theology has insinuated itself into the Catholic religion since the 19th century when labor unions sought support from the Catholic Church-this is highly relevant in Obama’s case because his children were baptized by Wright, as well as he and Michelle being married there-then the 20 years he stayed even when Oprah left because of the extreme Wright- so as usual Gibbs, Favreau and Axelrod are continuing to deny, lie and craft yet another image on to the blank screen in hopes of appeasing the American people.

They must have legalized prostitution in D.C. during this administration, I mean otherwise how is it Gibbs isn’t in jail?

Maybe they’re scared stupid.  Maybe they know we remember but they know they are on the edge of a cliff so they’re grasping at air on their way down.

I got the job; can I do my happy dance again?

Congrats to you, Katmoon! Well deserved and well done.

I think I’ll do a dance too.

Thanks Carol, Arabella, everyone with their encouragement last night. I posted it on the last open thread; sorry.

Cute kitty on duty beyond_words!

Um, yeah – pretty much what you said.  I remember asking my Obot brother why it didn’t bother him that Obama reneged on his FISA promise, and he responded that he was “disappointed.”  And that’s just it – every time Obama would break a promise, or say something stupid (e.g., Great Lakes in Oregon), that would be their response.  But they refused – adamantly REFUSED – to put all of thosepieces together.

And Kathleen, EXCELLENT point abt the 53%…

Yes, I remember before one of the primaries, there was a mailer, I think, that depicted BO standing in a pulpit with a halo back drop.

I don’t remember the state, but it was offensive to me.

The Hope and Change team have no one to blame but themselves.

the white house thinks we are stupid because we were stupid enough to let him in the white house

Okay, this is too funny.

I received a letter from BO a while back.

I did what I always do – Rip everything up.  Mark it all up. Put it into the return envelop and mail so that they have to pay for it.

I received a letter from BO today. It was addressed to “Hope your Impeached”.

I swear, I laughed my head off – I must have put the name on it as “Hope you’re Impeached” and the idiots semi-copied it as my name.

my former professor, James Cone…

What course / classes did you take from him? what year?

Weasels rip my Flesh

WOOHOOO!!!!!!  Yippee!!! Way to go, Katmoon!  Excellent!  We are SO happy for you!

And Carol, we certainly hope you are next…

Cindy, you are spot on abt BLT – that was certainly true when I was there, too.  And I guess I was “somebody” because I was in that camp, too.  But it is one thing to study it, to discuss issues of disenfranchisement, oppression, and all of that.  It is quite another to see a minister whose church embodies BLT dry-humping a pulpit while discussing someone who had long been an ally, or  claiming how bad it is to be rich when he is retiring to a million dollar pad, and diminishing a great woman, negating her (our) struggles to hold up the struggles of others.  That is to say, academic study v. praxis are two different things. 

No doubt, the history of what AAs endured in this country is horrendous. No doubt abt that. But, some of the claims made by BLT, including Cone, really push the envelope.

And I, too, highly resent his “Southern” accent.  Everytime he uses it, it makes my blood boil (more).  He is a chameleon, and cannot be trusted, that’s for sure.

Well the race card won`t work anymore……..Let`s try this one.

You are killing me!!!! When are we going to reach the bottom of stupididy and incompetence with this bunch!!!

I cannot help but wonder how my former professor, James Cone, feels about this new disavowal from Obama’s camp.

Amy.  What did you study under James Cone?

He enjoys spending other people’s money!

It’s a “southern” black jive talk that he fakes.

exactly, Annie—-well, that’s what it eventually  became ( “southern black jive” ). I knew/know white people in the south that sound more like southern blacks than southern blacks do.
 For instance, my brother, when he was an FBI agent, had assignments up north.   The problem was, whenever he went to meet an informant at a bar, or wherever, the informant was always looking for a black man, since he had talked to my brother only by phone.

katmoon—–hilarious!

There’s an old Latin saying that lawyers are quite fond of:

“Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus”  (“False in one thing, false in everything”, or more loosely, if you lie about one thing, you’ll lie about anything).

Most politicians wait until after they’re elected to start breaking promises – Obama got the jump on the process by breaking promises before he was even nominated! I guess he really was “ready on Day One,” after all.

He and ‘they” will stick with it . Its all they have at this point. Liars all of them. Fill in the names.

Dongo, we need to know all about anyone who is running OUR country, and yes I care who or what he worships.

Peggy Sue I am

That’s what they say about Socialism…it fails because eventually you run out of other people’s money.

It burns me that the AAs accept him as one of them…He never was and never will be AA.

the AAs accept him as one of them

Except Jesse, that is.

I got a questionnaire from the Dems today asking me what I thought of BO  as president….I’d have filled it out but I was afraid the boyz with the purple shirts would come after me. Discretion…erCowardice is the better part of valor.

Bang up Job Katmoon! Wayto go. Nothing like getting a piece of one’s self respect working and getting a job.

WHoo Hoooo!

http://australianconservative.com/2010/08/obama-muslim-christian-or-marxist/

[snip] So what the Obama presidential campaign says about Obama’s religious affiliation is not something to be taken at face value. They have a vested interest in making Obama look more acceptable to the American people.
As President, he has gone to church only a few times, which undermines the claim that he is a practicing Christian. People see him playing golf on Sunday; they don’t see him going to church.
In fact, however, being a Christian is not just a function of attending church services. Rather, it is related to being baptised. Did this critical development occur in Obama’s life?
In this regard, Obama does not indicate anywhere in his books that he came into contact with what Christians regard as the “living water.” Instead, he says that, in his baptism, he made “a choice,” knelt beneath a cross, and “felt God’s spirit beckoning.” He said, “I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth.”
This sounds like a powerful religious experience but it is not what Christians regard as baptism.
For his part, Obama visited Wright to discuss membership in the Trinity United Church of Christ as an extension of his community organizing activities and the hope that he could get “involvement” in this effort from churches like Wright’s.
As Obama contacted the churches and their ministers, he reveals that they thought he was a Muslim (page 279) or, he jokes, an Irishman, “O’Bama.”
Obama talks about hearing a Wright sermon, “The Audacity of Hope,” which inspired the title of his second book. However, there is no mention of any baptism in this—his first—book. The reference to being baptised came in the second book, as Obama was preparing to launch his presidential campaign. The timing is significant.
The phrase, “having been baptised,” is apparently based on Obama’s claim about being baptised. Our major media haven’t questioned the claim.

She cites the research of a pastor, Usama Dakdok, who had called Obama’s church to ask about membership: [snip]
“Do I have to be baptised to join the church?” asked Pastor Dakdok. “No, you don’t,” was the answer. “You can be a member without being baptised.”
“And what exactly is required to become a member?” The answer: “You attend two Sunday school classes in a row about membership, and then you walk the aisle.”
Walk down the aisle? That sounds exactly what Obama described in his book. This is how one becomes a member. But it is not a baptism into Christianity.
“I called the Trinity United Church of Christ and they confirmed that baptism is merely optional for members,” Brooks added.
Pastor Dakdok reports that he also asked a spokesperson for Trinity, the membership director:
“If I am a Muslim man, and I believe in the prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, but I also believe in the prophet Jesus, do I have to give up my Islamic faith to join your church?”
The answer was, “Absolutely not! We have so many members of our church who are Muslims.”
Dakdok asked the Trinity spokesperson, “Is that how Senator Barack Obama became a member?” The membership director of the church refused to answer.
Madeline Brooks calls this “Muslim Christianity,” which she says is theologically impossible.
So the question regarding Obama is not just whether he is a Muslim but a Marxist, based not only on his attendance at Jeremiah Wright’s unusual church but the influence exercised over him during his growing-up years by Communist Frank Marshall Davis.

I’m not sure what the heck it is. His grammar is incredibly bad for a Harvard Grad.
“They talk about me like a dog.”
Does that mean “They talk about me like a dog would talk about me?”
or
“They talk about me as if I were a dog?”
It’s a terrible example for kids, unless you are using it as in “What is wrong with this sentence?”

Well, President Obama’s ™ committment to Christianity is really going to ruin this guy’s day:

http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4337606

Your day is coming soon, carol haka. Trust me, I have a good feeling about it.

Let us not forget Annie too on the work situatin also!

This one?

You are too kind, Sybill – thank you!

Hope everything goes smoothly tomorrow R3 Amy. You will be in our thoughts and hope you are back to rabble rousing ASAP!

Obama is NOT a Harvard grad.. he went to Harvard Law. He graduated from Columbia. So blame them for his god-awful English, not Harvard.

should have nested under the idiot flowbee, wasn’t directed at you Justme

He and his wife have that same problem–trying to be cool.

Donjo,

Unfortunately, that’s the same line of reasoning that was used by the left to dismiss further snooping into his affairs at TUCC and his relationship to Wright, Cone, et al.  From the beginning, Wright’s picture (with his arm around barry) was posted to barry’s campaign website.  The Wright tapes came out — the picture and Wright’s role as spiritual advisor came off his campaign website.  One of the very few follow ups by the press when asking Wright why, suddenly, he was persona non grata, Wright’s response was a knowing chuckle and this:  “If Barack gets past the primary,” said the Rev. Jeremiah Wright to the New York Times in April of last year, “he might have to publicly distance himself from me. I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen.”

There was a gentlemens’ agreement that everyone on the media rapidly tra-la-la’d away from that had so many follow-ups it was ridiculous.  So, don’t do the same thing now.  Read Cone.  There’s one of the big bricks in the wall that drives barry’s worldview — and it’s not for nothing.  It’s all there:  Rich Whitey owns the country, redistribution of wealth, reparations, separation, paranoia, victimhood, entitlement.  Black Liberation theology, or Liberation theology (recognized without the word “Black”) is a socio-political tract, weaving latter-day Marxism/Socialism, it’s many-headed thrust aimed at destroying capitalism (which term is used interchangeably with imperialism). 

The ease with which one can research Wright, Phleger, Cone and the rest should have had a lot more coverage and at least head-scratching by the media.  It’s more of the same, though–don’t get caught questioning someone’s religion ’cause then you’ll be un-PC and that’s just not cool.  Harsh, dude.

For the uninitiated, “talk about me like a dog” is a colloquialism. It means using terms like mongrel, stray, rabid, b*tch, or s.o.b.
I have heard these expressions all my life.
After a fit of flying expletives, there is also “called him every name in the book”, and even “called him everything but a white man”.

Perhaps, but I think you’d have to be fooling yourself if you can’t see the constellation of other players in that TUCC “world”.  I think it was the perfect petri dish of smorgesbord Christianity, social/political views and who’s who in that milieu of 60′s radicalism.  barry may have found it convenient to associate with Wright and TUCC to get out the vote, but it was quite a bit more than that.  It was barry who said that Wright recruited him to that church (which is so much more than a pulpit, choir and congregation).  If you don’t “think” it was about that, do some research. 

No matter what the “topic” the issue should always be about honesty. Quite “honestly” I really don’t give a crap what church someone goes to.

But I do care, a lot, about the spokesperson for the POTUS standing up and telling bare-faced lies. I don’t like liars. I don’t care what damn party they belong to and I don’t care what church they belong to, I just don’t like liars.

More than any other kind of liar I hate, loathe, despise the arrogant kind that thinks we the people are stupid enough to believe them. (Their base may not “believe” but will willingly be lied to and accept such dishonesty as truthiness. That’s why I would rather be a turd in a cesspool than a member of either base.)

Don’t forget the media stooges. Hey, that makes 3!

Congratulations Katmoon! A bit of good news amidst the doom and gloom is so very welcome. Especially when it happens to a great person like you. I too am doing a happy dance. Did you feel the tremors?

That expression predates Hendrix. The Chicago crew may have picked it there, but southern ridgerunners have always used it!

Gibbs, Axlerod, and BO will have lots and lots of questions to divert on November 3rd!
Pelosi will have a tremor in her voice as well! How sweet!

Interesting, Sassy.  But I don’t think barry has the ridgerunner boyz on his ipod.

Thanks, Carol. I wasn’t aware he was quoting.

Thank you everyone. As a Canadian, “American” isn’t my native language.

Tell us when you have an interview, Carol so we can direct all our positive energy your way too. It seems to work.
You too, Annie.

Somehow I don’t think momentary flagging confidence will be your problem Carol.

Same thing applies to you; I suspect you will find that the believe that these people were “christian” is just a bunch of fundamentalist hooey.  The founders were quite aware of the problems with organized religion and that’s why they wrote: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” But who cares about that “worthless piece of paper” if you’re trying to subvert its principles. 

Arianna Huffington is a swine.  She’s a Hungarian conservative who sways with the wind according to whatever candidate she believes will benefit her personally.

donjo:  It’s a very important topic.  Black Liberations are revolutionaries; they want to change the U. S. to a black country and turn it upside down.  You can’t take a country away from it’s roots and culture and heritage and think it will survive.  Actually, that’s one of Glen Beck’s ideas that I agree with.

Congratulations!

I’m pretty sure that Meechelle is the Black Liberation Theologist.  Obama just went for the Chicago Street Cred.

Fear not, sowsear!  They are like all bullies — as soon as you shine the light of truth in their eyes, they squint and run away…run away…run away.  The fellow from the local Dems who phoned our house and called my husband a “racist a$$hole”, was quaking in his boots when I told him I’d reported his behavior to the FCC (even though there is no law protecting us from hiim), his party managers and his party reps.  He offered to resign that very night at their chapter meeting.  All I could say to him was, “okay, that’s fine by me.”

She’s Greek! But as far as producing lechers, the Hungarians aren’t off the hook, Soros is Hungarian.

will the real obama please stand up.  oh ..right.. there is no real obama.  just a blank slate,  covered in lies and  misrepresentations.  the mid term elections arent even over and hes already out there campaigning for 2012. (has he ever stopped?)he needs to remember that half the country  is conservative and every time he bad mouths the republicans, he’s bad mouthing half the country.  and he wonders why so many people dont like him?  it has nothing to do with his color.

why is there NO ONE out there willing to dig into obamas past (the same way they did to palin)?  we have EVERY RIGHT  to know EVERYTHING  about this man who holds the highest office in the land.   its not like hes just a dog catcher whose backround doesnt matter. the more he tries to hide it, the worse its going to be.  if he has the nerve to run again in 2012, americans must DEMAND  access to ALL of his records.  i ,for one, want to know what this man is hiding that he has spent millions to cover up.

“I think it’s because I am fed up to here with reading the same clap trap — and it is clap trap — about the founders being deists or agnostics or unreligious.”

I’m fed up too!
The vast majority of the FFs were deeply religious. At the time that they were trying to cobble together a new nation out of the Colonies, it was a very sectarian society. In fact, some city, county, and even colony lines were strongly influenced by the various religious sects that peppered the Colonies. In order to bring this disparate group together under one banner, the FFs had to set aside their own personal, but deeply held beliefs, and adopt a more neutral position regarding religion to reduce the petty squabbling that would have resulted if each particular sect attempted to influence the new Constitution along religious lines. THAT’s why the FFs implied a separation between church and state, they didn’t want to give the appearance that they were favoring one religious group over another. But it is crystal clear from the saturation of Christian principles and references to God or the Creator in our country’s founding documents that the FFs were indeed very religious. This is further supported by their personal writings. I suppose to someone woefully ignorant of history, or to someone who thinks they’re intelligent because they can parrot the popular ignorance of others, that the necessary religious neutrality of our FFs might make them appear to have been simply Deists or even agnostic, but that is just a grossly distorted vision of reality. Sadly, there are just some people who need to buy a 55 gallon drum of Windex to wash all of the crud off of the window through which they view the world. 

Since you’re the expert, and I admit I’m not, is there any evidence in these philosophical writings that our founders wouid for one second put up with the crap and nonsense that’s being spewed by the religious right these days?  To me and a h… of a lot of others these people are scarier than any Moslem fanatics.  We see and have seen what happened when religions take over a country and it ain’t purty.  I wonder what will be said if we ever get a Morman president or a Morman talking head on Fox?

I saw that story too on Yahoo about Obama quoting Hendrix but I highly doubt that’s a direct quote specifically with that song in mind (Stone Free). Seriously, does Obama look like a Hendrix fan? I don’t think so. I like Hendrix and I didn’t even make that correlation. I think it’s just some BS story to make Obama look cool and hip, like, “hey, he’s quoting Hendrix!”. Asshat.

The guy claims to be a Chicago White Sox fan but when casually questioned by the sports announcer on who his favorite player was HE COULDN’T COME UP WITH A SINGLE NAME, PAST OR PRESENT!

You are right you are not an expert, same as me, neither am I!  
However, when a Mormon leader dictates blowing up buildings, the despicable act of genital mutilation aND STONING TO DEATH women, come back and speak to us about the concern of the Muslim growth in the country etc. I CANNOT believe you added these 2 comparisons in the same paragraph. Goonoo away and learn something for goodness sake! In fact stay and bring that whole crowd of a h** of a lot over to learn something too. OMG !!! Better still, if you get a chance go live in Salt Lake City, with the Mormons for a while, check them out and see how they live and create prosperity!  

“Since you’re the expert, and I admit I’m not, is there any evidence in these philosophical writings that our founders wouid for one second put up with the crap and nonsense that’s being spewed by the religious right these days? ”  
 
Wow donjo, well done! Within this single ridiculous sentence you’ve not only attempted a massive change of subject, but you’ve managed to incorporate a ‘straw man’, a sweeping generalization, a loaded question, and several amphibolies, and you’ve wrapped them all up in a huge non sequitur! I’m impressed.

Onofre—i really agree with you about the FF !!

Yep! OD2EB He is such an empty suit he has to be JFK, MLK, Lincoln, and now Hendrix…. who else? My head is spinnin….. Just add on to the list everyone! No surprise he cannot keep up. Right?

R3A, this is slightly off-topic, but I would like you and the rest of the posters to look at this.  It’s the proposed design for a memorial to the heroes of Flight 93.  Much is being made of its similarity to the Islamic crescent. 

But if you look again, you realize that it’s an almost exact copy of Barry-O’s campaign symbol.

Someone is being memorialized in Shanksville but it doesn’t appear to be the people on that plane.

Or have I gone completely around the paranoia bend?

Promise me you’ll do some more reading before you come into contact with others who might also prefer to take someone’s word for it, rather than do the work of knowing for themselves.

AbigailAdams – would you please cite some source documents that are acceptable to you?

Listen to EllenD, carolhaka!

She is right. You are going to turn the corner soon.

Didn’t Michelle Obama live at Jesse Jackson Sr.’s house for a while when she was a young woman? I thought she was close friends with one of his daughters?

Whatever, don’t bust your britches.  As usual, you never addressed the message, just the messenger.  Get over it.  Please. 

AT, read these quotes and excerpts and then tell me there wasn’t a strong Christian influence that was pervasive among our FFs. And then try and tell me that Christianity wasn’t a major element in the foundation of this country.

http://christianity.about.com/od/independenceday/a/foundingfathers.htm

How do they treat women, you say?  Same as Catholics? Not quite.  
Please direct us all to information that describes in full the same heinous crimes towards women in this country at this time?  
Not only that, please show us too, where men butcher heads from other men or cut off their hands? Many are not familiar where this is all taking place, please enlighten us?  
There are many who will argue to stop the slow progression of Shari law coming to the USA. Once it takes hold it will continue to grow. It needs to be stopped in its tracks.  
donjo, people are waking up, you can either get on board go educate yourself or stay uneducated the choice is yours!

As usual donjo, you provide no intelligible message than can be logically addressed!

“I’ll take Howard Zinn’s version any day.” 

Then you have little defense when you are reasonably accused of swallowing revisionist history.

I can’t stop you from constantly parading your phenomenal stupidity around on this site, so I’ll have to settle on pointing it out when it reaches toxic levels.

LIFE WITH BIG BROTHER
<!– head –>Chris Dodd’s last act: ‘Control the people’
<!– deck –>

Alarms raised over Democrat senator’s likely final major piece of legislation

WASHINGTON – Alarms are being raised over what probably is retiring Sen. Christopher Dodd’s last major piece of legislation – the Livable Communities Act, which has been approved by the Senate Banking Committee and now is heading to the Senate floor – for its likely U.N. inspiration and goal of controlling people.
The plan would create a new federal bureaucracy, the Office of Sustainable Housing and Communities, armed with some $4 billion in federal grants, to pressure local communities into a more “green” development agenda.
Detractors say its priorities can be traced back to the U.N., which at an Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro in 1992 adopted Agenda 21, outlining the goal of having government control over people.

May it be a rough flight, and an equally rough landing. I have no sympathy for any of them, and they will get what they deserve, sooner or later!

arabella:  I’m so glad you asked.  Just last night and this morning (since I’m not working I have a lot of unstructured time right now) I was reading more pieces from writers of the late 1600′s to the mid 1700′s.  Most of these pieces took the form of letters that were either published whole or amended as publications in newspapers or as pamphlets.  Anything before 1774 assumes authorship under the laws of Great Britain which gave us a landmark court case, (also incredibly interesting) concerning the rights of free speech under British law and what constitutes slander and libel, James Alexander: The Trial of John Peter Zenger (by J. Alexander).  In it, the winning argument to the jury (overcoming the refusal of the Court to rule that it is not merely the act of printing and publishing factual information against the Cown’s agents that constitutes libel) was by reference to the Bible, the book of Isaiah. 

There are so many writrings, it’s hard to know what would interest you.  I have to say I find your tone somewhat offending because you ask what would be “acceptable” to me as though it is my attempt to find only things that support my opinions instead of the other way around.  I form my conclusions around not only the most widely-published, but widely-received information of the times.  There are always the counter-arguers and I’ve read those too.  It won’t work if you are trying to say that I’m wrong just because you believe there is a some large body of knowledge somewhere out there that runs counter to what I am saying.  That would be something like saying to someone in the future that the moon landing may not have happened because there were those, at the time, who believed it was all a hoax, staged at Universal Studios. 

Every epoch has its writers and some main rivers of thought.  It’s why we call them an “age”.  There are nearly always as many views of an age as there are people involved in it.  The stories that survive and bear repeating are those that speak for the many on either side or along the  contiuum of an argument.  Some of the things I’ve read recently include:

Peter Bulkeley – preacher at and one of the founders of Concord, MA, “The Gospel-Covenant; or The Covenant of Grace Opened”, 2nd edition, London, 1651.

Nathaniel Ward – minister, writer – “The Simple Cobbler of Aggawam”, The story of the civil war (1642-46) between different sects of the Puritans which resulted in the idea of latitudinarianism (see Oliver Cromwell), 1647

As you know, from your own reading of history, it is sometimes slow going with lots of lookup to word useage.

What I really detest is for someone to do a google of some event or idea that spanned years in history and then present it as a sound bite.  “The founders were deists.”  I’m not even sure, yet, that any of the founders were deists.  I have yet to read one single sentence from any of them that is the basis for the sort of “Watchmaker god” that google and wikipedia give us as the definition of deist.

Obutt admits in one of  his books that he looked around for a church and chose TUCC to further his political ambitions as a community organizer.  TUCC has many members who are Muslim and you do not have to be baptized to be a member.

AbigailAdams – By asking what you would find “acceptable” I meant to ask “upon what materials are you making your argument” so that I could have a better understanding of what sources I might look at. There was no attempt on my part to be argumentative or sarcastic. On the contrary, I am always interested in learning about sources of information.

I am less familiar with writings prior to 1750 or so than you are. Is your background in law?

I have always enjoyed history, although I majored in biology and now nursing. I love to read biographies, especially of the people who lived during the Revolutionary era. The more I have read over the years, the more nuanced a picture has come before me. Like you, I dislike “sound bites.” I like to evaluate things for myself as much as possible.

I studied the Founders in great detail, especially John Jay. I spent ten years working for the preservation of the site of the childhood home of John Jay. I live in Westchester County, an area rich in American history, as I’m sure you know. The more I read about John Jay, the more complicated the American Revolution becomes. John Jay wrote “The Olive Branch Petition” and wanted to make peace with Great Britain. His view changed very slowly over time. He authored five of the Federalist Papers. He was a slave holder. He was one of the most conservative of the founders.

I wish I had more time to debate the issues regarding the founding of our country with you. I simply don’t have the time to do it now. I certainly respect your knowledge and your opinion. I always must remind myself that it is easy to become tendentious yet to become so unwittingly. I do strongly disagree with the idea that our country was founded on a religious basis. Others can make the argument more cogently than I can.

That said, our country is in crisis now. That is why I try to avoid nit picking. When the building is on fire, you don’t look for the arsonist – you put out the fire. It is important to defeat Obama and his allies.

Please never think that I mean you any disrespect. If I offend you, please believe me it is unintentional.

Yr obedient servant,

A. Trefoil

1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society
“By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.
The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement “for the sins of the whole world,” and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve.” –John Jay–

“In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible.” –John Jay–
*******************************************
Maybe it’s just me AT, but this guy seems sounds like a pretty devoted Christian. 
“I do strongly disagree with the idea that our country was founded on a religious basis.”
Perhaps it might help if you defined what you mean by “founded on a religious basis”.
 
 

arabella,

I had two older brothers and an older sister in the sixties — Summer of Love.  They’re still living.  The oldest brother served 2 tours in Viet Nam as a Marine.  The second brother had polio so couldn’t serve and my sister (older by 4 years) was just on the cusp of hippie wannabe, but grew into it in the ’70s.  I was 10 in ’68.  But an old 10, and the one thing that struck me oddly at that time was how hypocritical the message of those flower children were: “You can be different so long as you’re just like us.”  Groovy, man.  I remember my oldest brother coming back to a country he barely recognized — just picture a guy in a Marine dress uniform next to someone who hasn’t taken a bath for a week with the look of stuff living in his hair.  I really don’t know how he reconciled himself to it.  Turn on, tune in, drop out.  In some ways, today sounds a lot like those times — just better dressed and with electronics. 

I’ve been taking courses, the past 5 weeks on the constitution and they were deeply religious, at least most of them. They believed in a creator, and that only He gave you freedom, not the government. It was never intended nor stated anywhere in the constitution about separation of church and state, just that the government couldn’t “dictate” a religion. It was to keep the “government” out of religious practices, not the other way around. I know that I had been told that our founders were not christians, at least most of them, but after reading a lot more, that just isn’t true. It’s been eye opening and I suspect that like I did, some are just “picking and choosing” which FF they want to support as to show that they were not christian. I use to do that based on rhetoric supplied to me by the left. However, these last 2 years have taught me to do the research myself.

“And, no, I’m not going to check on them.”  

Then……STFU!!!

Sassy,  Thank you for this link.  I had not seen the first one from Patrick Henry before and it echoes (echos?) what I said the other day here. 

Here’s one for you:  http://chaplain.house.gov/archive/continental.html

And here’s another interesting site I saw the other day. It’s an exhibit on religion and the founding of the United States from the Library of Congress:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

WARNING! Another idiotic donjo post! Attempting to understand it might be injurious to your brain.

donjo:  That, sir, would be intellectually dishonest of me then, wouldn’t it?  And what would I gain from making up my own history?  The false satisfaction of being “right”?  What a bizarre goal.  And you’re right, history, or the words of historic figures and the cause of historic events, can and often is interpreted to support a polticial agenda.  But, if one takes the time to sift through the many various reports and, this is where I cannot stress the importance of the person’s own words, something emerges that is hard to misunderstand.

I’ll bet you anything, that if you started reading American history you’d make a great student.  I hated history.  Hated it.  But now I’m hooked.  Our history is one of the most fascinating stories ever told.  We are so fortunate to have some of the most interesting historical figures who ever lived.

Onofre—you are a riot. Even when you’re extremely pissed-off, you are the funniest, bestest pissed-off guy I’ve ”know”.

Onofre—maybe I’ve written this before, but we have a copy (NOT first edition, however) of Jefferson’s “Bible”—–the one where he printed ONLY what Jesus said. Yeah, I’d say that’s about the best Christian reading material you can have—-straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. 

Well, let me add another quote that I saw in person last week at the National Archives.  Have you been there?   Ooooo, chills. 

This is from Thomas Paine (2/14/76)

“We have it in our power to begin the world over again.
A situation, similar to the present, hath not happened since the days of Noah until now.
The birthday of a new world is at hand.”

I don’t know about the claims made by the dissenter, but to me it looks like a monument to the designer more than anything.  Otherwise, it doesn’t seem to have the kind of readily recognizable iconography that makes elicits a “Wow, I get it” response.  Anyone who’s seen the Viet Nam war memorial understands it right off.

Remember the University first had him listed as a professor on its website. When it was discovered, it was scrubbed.

There was more than one murder, I believe.

Carol, I have my fingers, eyes, and toes crossed. I want you to have a job too. Agree EllenD, keep sending the good job vibes here for Carol.

Oh, good looking dancer!!

Have you read “The Age of Reason” by Thomas Paine? I studied Thomas Paine in grammar school and in high school because the Thomas Paine House is located in New Rochelle, NY. In Westchester NY we claim Paine as one of our own, even though this claim is debatable.

If I recall correctly, at the end of his life Paine was shunned because he argued against organized religion and was a “free-thinker.” (This is all from memory, so I might be off a bit.)  No Chirstian Church in NYC would bury Thomas Paine, so he was originally interred on his farm in New Rochelle. (I guess we Westcherites can lay claim to his body, at any rate.)

It was not (and is not) uncommon for writers to use the bible as a source for metaphors or rhetrocial devices. Even an atheist refers to the Garden of Eden and Noah and the Flood.

IMHO if you have to “try”, you ain’t.

FOR EVERYONE   Here is a link to a light a candle group page I made, for Rev. Amy, to send her well wishes and prayers for a speedy recovery. I have also sent a link to the NQ administrator. Let me know if you have any problems. :*

Thanks, Kat

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=Rev%2E

As I said, of all the Founders John Jay was the most conservative. And so was most of his family. His Huegonot ancestors came to America from France after the revocation of the Edicit of Nantes. Jay’s grandfather was a merchant in NYC, and became wealthy. The Jay family insinuated itself into the pre-revolutionary upper class of New York, most of whom where Tories. At some point, the Jays didn’t identify themselves as Huegonots and they joined more mainstream Protestant churches. (Religious affilliation in NY was extremely complex, especially during the Revolutionary Period.)

John Jay was against Catholics holding public office, a fact that tends to be forgotten. I can’t off the top of my head remember what his opinions were about Jews.

John Jay: Christian, Tory turned Patriot, Slave Owner, Author of the Jay Treaty, First Head of the Supreme Court, Governor of New York.

Anti Jay graffitti in NYC after Jay Treaty:

“Damn John Jay. Damn anyone who won’t damn John Jay. Damn anyone who won’t sit up all night with a candle in his window damning John Jay.” (Painted in large letters on the side of a two story building.)

One of the first blogs in the United States, I guess.

And btw, Happy New Year! (First Day of Rosh Hashanah)

KMA. Creep!!

“It was to keep the “government” out of religious practices, not the other way around.”

OMG!  You want religeous practices IN the government? 

I must be on the wrong blog.

Yup.  Gonna buy the next election, just like they bought Hillary’s delegates at the convention.

Hey, Creeper:  It’s okay — you’re not on the wrong blog and what Armymom is talking about is the real intent of the 1st Amend. 

As with anything else in the age of google, you’ll find ALL kinds of interpretations of this amendment, but I think this one is succint and accurate (without checking any Supreme Court decisions that may have an influence on it), pointing to the iterations that this amendment went through before its final inclusion in the Bill of Rights:

http://www.straight-talk.net/socas/s-amendment.shtml

Note the very interesting quote from Pres. John Tyler at the bottom of the page.

I hope this helps.

I should also add that it would be more prudent for you to study history as opposed to reading it second hand and from someone who may, as you put it, also have a “bias” toward another way. I don’t go along with what other people say about books or a movie and from here on out, since 2008, I sure hell don’t go along with someone else tells me. I prefer to find out for myself.

In other words donjo, you’re not just merely ignorant, you’re ‘intentionally’ ignorant.

Donjo:  But how do you know that I’m wrong if you won’t look into the matter yourself and instead rely on those you think are right about the deist tract?  I think one of the problems we find on this subject is that there is a propensity to come down hard on either side of the debate at its conclusion, rather than to start from the beginning and build an understanding and a body of first-hand knowledge (based on primary sources).  Without that, one can never know for sure if they are correct.  For example, at one point I was fascinated with WWII-era history and that included FDR.  I started out thinking I knew all there was to know about him because of the stories that were told to me.  But, as I began reading accounts of him, including his own words, I formed a very different and richer understanding of him, his times, what informed him and the many compromises and personal flaws he struggled with.  In other words, he came alive to me as a mere mortal, someone with whom I could relate rather than a bust carved in marble or cast in bronze. 

I don’t know which studies you are referring to, Donjo, but I think you should examine your own entrenchment on this subject and its subsequent outcome, plus the fact that you are not interested in the facts (“Facts are stubborn things” ~ J. Adams), but rather in your own insistence that the people who framed our charter were all secular humanists or “deists”.  I put quotes around that word because there were two famous deists included in our founding:  Jefferson and Franklin.  However, the definition of deism at the time was vastly different than how it is used today — just as much of the church doctrine of the other founders has changed greatly in some instances since the mid-17th c. 

I’ve made my arguments based on factual information and have been careful to underscore my own opinions, while you on the other hand have declared your opinions as fact while also admitting you don’t care about those pesky facts.  So now who’s playing the Oracle?

AA: What makes you think that you have ownership of what’s right or what wrong?  Whatever you may have read or studied, it’s all reflected as simply your opinion.  You weren’t there and even reading accounts, who’s to say they’re accurate and don’t reflect the author’s opinion?  I see enough of this happening right here on this site, where opinion is too often passed off as FACT.  When, in truth, many of the posters here are so enamored of their own opinion that they actually show they are far, far, more ignorant than I will ever be

 BTW, no where did I say the founders of this country were ALL deists.  And really, in the grand scheme of things, does it matter what you and think about the deism or not-deism of our founders?  Maybe it’s a matter of professional pride for you, but not for me.

Here’s something of the study about changing opinions that I mentioned and I think it explains a lot of what we read here:
(I’m amazed that all the intellectuals on this site don’t know about this.)

From studies at the University of Michigan:
It’s this: Facts don’t necessarily have the power to change our minds. In fact, quite the opposite. In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters — the people making decisions about how the country runs — aren’t blank slates. They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct information, such people react very, very differently than the merely uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct information, they can entrench themselves even deeper.
“The general idea is that it’s absolutely threatening to admit you’re wrong,” says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher on the Michigan study. The phenomenon — known as “backfire” — is “a natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.”
These findings open a long-running argument about the political ignorance of American citizens to broader questions about the interplay between the nature of human intelligence and our democratic ideals. Most of us like to believe that our opinions have been formed over time by careful, rational consideration of facts and ideas, and that the decisions based on those opinions, therefore, have the ring of soundness and intelligence. In reality, we often base our opinions on ourbeliefs, which can have an uneasy relationship with facts. And rather than facts driving beliefs, our beliefs can dictate the facts we chose to accept. They can cause us to twist facts so they fit better with our preconceived notions. Worst of all, they can lead us to uncritically accept bad information just because it reinforces our beliefs. This reinforcement makes us more confident we’re right, and even less likely to listen to any new information. And then we vote.”
More at: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/

Jefferson’s proudest accomplishment was his founding of the U of VA and the insurance of the continuation of his belief in “Freedom of Religion.”
 
On the faces of the Obelisk the following inscription, & not a word more
Here was buried 
Thomas Jefferson
Author of the Declaration of American Independance
of the Statute of Virginia for religious freedom
& Father of the University of Virginia.Have a good day.

Couldn’t you find anything from the NYTs or the LATs? 

What does who I voted for have to do with anything?  Who did you vote for?Explain your choice in 50 words or less and win a prize. Object lesson #1. I saw Ozero for what he was the moment he stepped on the stage; and the other choice was even worse. (Look at him now.)  And thanks for trying to save me from myself. Talk about arrogance. 

Thank you, AA, for a fascinating link.

The author loses me, though, with this:

The actions of neither man support the long predominant notion that the “Establishment Clause” of the First Amendment requires a separation of Christianity from our civil government and law.

Note that the specific reference is a defense of “Christianity”.  It is, by inference, actually an argument in favor of in inclusion of Christian principles in our government. 

Notwithstanding Jefferson’s reference to various Christian denominations, the argument is a blanket endorsement of those who believe in Jesus Christ.

Well, I don’t believe in Jesus Christ, except possibly as a prophet.  And I’m uncomfortable as hell with the idea that Christian ideals should be the basis for our government, just as I do not believe Muslim ideals should be the basis for another government.

The author floats the argument that the “wall of separation” is to limit the power of the government to prohibit or interfere with expressions of religion.  I would submit to you that this is only half the equation.  It must also limit the power of religion to interfere with government. 

So long as I keep hearing people say “This is a Christian country”, it will be clear that Jefferson’s words have been sadly misinterpreted.