RSS Feed for This PostCurrent Article

Ray McGovern on whether Assange is a “journalist”

Editor’s Note: Truthtelling007 is our terrific videographer who built this blog’s excellent YouTube channel.

Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern (who posts at NoQuarterUSA) is asked by CNN’s Don Lemon if Julian Assange is a “journalist”. Note his answer and Lemon’s fairly conditioned and defensive response about “standards”…

There is this myth living in the CNN sphere (clearly they aren’t the only ones) that there is a “journalistic standard” that they abide by. Anderson Cooper seems to be the guy most prone to promote the “mr man from nowhere” journalist nonsense as he and CNN bask in the partisanship at MSNBC and FoxNews.

CNN even has a show on Sunday called, “Reliable Sources” that makes sure you hear what Rachel Ray has to say. This show features the ever so astute Howard Kurtz. Kurtz works for WaPo and Daily Beast but is more known to common viewers as the periodic “media critic” used to bolster CNN’s image as a “credible news source”.

But if you look at the CNN guest list regulars, you can’t find a more biased and ignorant bunch of partisan hacks than at CNN. Lower level operatives who are making careers out of being useless hacks. And they know it. Paul Begala, Hack. Gloria Borger. Hack. Roland Martin. Hack. Floyd the Barber. Hack. (sorry, I meant Alejandro “Alex” Castellanos) Donna Brazil, multiple campaign losing failure. Hack.

Back to the video, “why do you think Assange is doing the right thing by releasing all these documents”….
I didn’t catch the opening salvo but note that McGovern draws it back to whether or not he’s a journalist. He points out that it is the job of a journalist to tell the people what their governance structure is doing. He is wise to quote Jefferson’s concerns about the choice between being informed and having governance.

The banner at the bottom is offensive to anyone with intelligence. This false choice between Journalist and Terrorist is childish. What we put down in the lower third of a news piece can set the town. Lower third is the area where we place headlines and messages. This is a very suggestive area when you use labels.
“Michael Jackson: Freak or Molester?”
“Plame: Patriot or Camera Crazy”

This is not a “journalistic standard”, CNN.

McGovern continues by pointing out the “malnurished” state of information in the American populace due to the “fawning corporate media who act more as stenographers than they do as journalists”. As I’ve demonstrated in the past with other stories, the fact checking of these major media sources like CNN is lacking woefully. They are extremely prone to group think.
WMD anyone?

Lemon refers to “journalistic standards” and “fact checking”. Coming from CNN, this is pretty humorous. The only reason CNN thinks it has a “fact checking” standard is because it simply regurgitates whatever the Pentagon tells it.

Ask yourself how many times Wolf Blitzer says, “The Pentagon says today”…then brings on Barbara Star to parrot the Pentagon message then will raise some arbitrary critic. It is here where one must pay strict attention. The critic chosen is perhaps the most important part of understanding where these pathogenic groupthink moments happen.

If you want to discredit the critic base, find the wackiest or most remote from mainstream thought and make sure to frame your questions in a mocking fashion, “but do you really think that…” is a great lead in. (Grayson, Kucinich, The Ron/Rand Pauls, etc). Make sure language reminds people that these are not the ‘mainstream’ people.

If you want agreement find the least wackiest critic that essentially has no disagreement with the first source and make sure the appearance of division is minimal. (any segment with Leiberman, Dianne Feinstein, or Lindsay Graham qualifies)

Lemon refers to how “journalists” will avoid printing information (censoring) it believes may cause harm somewhere to someone. But this really raises a question, for me anyway,…who decided at CNN they have the right to stand between you, a voting member of this governance structure called Your Government, and the information about what your governance structure is doing in your name with your tax dollars. My first impression is instinctive: of course I don’t want to cause harm to a person, a group, or a country by leaking secrets. Fortunately I don’t stop at instincts that are so primal as self defense.

Next I examine the claim. If the claim doesn’t hold up…then it should be challenged. As McGovern rightfully pointed out, much alarm has been made about nothing. No person has been harmed in the publishing of information, thus far. Embarrassment comes when you’re duplicitous. It is the nature of being revealed for being two faced. These cables, if you’ll read them, are not revealing Cheney’s secret bunker location or the password to the Presidential Blackberry.

Reading over many of them so far I have found it more fascinating to match what I learned in the public sphere by timing against when the cable related to the topic was sent. Example: Barack “Hope” Obama promised to close Gitmo and restore Ameica’s honor. Yet his State Department is leaning on Spain to leave former US officials alone. Aka, more of the same old shit. Or how under Barack “Yes We Can” Obama, we see a leaning on countries to take Gitmo detainees.

What part of this was unknown?

(author’s note: I forgot to finish this piece. I was drafting it in the NQ posts. So, I’ll call this: “Part One”…) Enjoy your holidays

  • Retired

    I am less worried about whether Assange is a journalist than whether the person who took an oath to maintain secrets and then smuggled the documents out and passed them to Assange will be appropriately punished for betraying his oath.

    After that has happened, perhaps we should look at Assange to see whether he really is a journalist, or whether he is being paid by a party or parties yet to be identified with the intent to do damage to the United States (I haven’t seen any Chinese, Russian or Iranian documents “leaked” yet by WikiLeaks, which claims to be global in scope).  If that turns out to be the case, then I guess that he isn’t a journalist after all, and I will be expecting Ray McGovern to go on CNN and declare that Assange isn’t a journalist, but a paid covert action agent of whoever his employers turn out to be.

  • Onofre’s arm

    Coulter correctly asserts that it’s not relevant if Assange is a journalist or not.

    http://www.anncoulter.com/

    I love her parting shot at the media.

  • califlefty

    So when Valerie Plame gets outed, lives are put in danger by association, anf that’s criminal. When wikileaks puts out information, not so much.

  • califlefty

    <img style=”width: 48px; height: 48px; margin-top: 0px; margin-left: 0px;” src=”http://js-kit.com/avatar/gxpA99f0jKlohF_DgthroT-48×48.png”/>

    <img src=”images/stars/admin-comment.png” title=”This user is an administrator”/> califlefty<img src=”images/icon10-external-url.png”/>
    So when Valerie Plame gets outed, lives are put in danger by association, and that’s criminal. When wikileaks puts out information, not so much.

  • califlefty

    So when Valerie Plame gets outed, lives are put in danger by association, anf that’s criminal. When wikileaks puts out information, not so much.

  • Onofre’s arm

    I’ve never seen the guy before, but it’s rather apparent that Ray McGovern is an asshole. He said that we went into Iraq and Afghanistan under false pretenses. Iraq is debatable, but there were clear and compelling reasons to enter Afghanistan, and we had international approval and support to do so.

    Whether Assange is a journalist or not, and whether his activities were legal or not, he still did what he did with the obvious motive of harming this country, making him a despicable creep, and an enemy. The apologists (Ray McGovern) and supporters (Michael Moore) of such a slimy bag of rat shit, are just as disgusting as Assange.

  • carol haka, Matzo

    In possession of Documents that don’t belong to you = a crime.

    No other explanation is necessary.

    >:o

  • surfered

    Dear Onofre’s Arm:

    Mr. McGovern is a former Infantry Intelligence Officer who served in Vietnam and retired from the CIA as an analyst.  What’s your claime to fame?

  • candymarl red bone cracker

    While the media and others defend Assange can they cite one main stream or independent news organization he actually belongs to or reports from?  Is he an op-ed person or writes opinion pieces for said group(s)?

    Remember, his name does start with Ass.  Just sayin’.

  • Onofre’s arm

    Dear Shithead,

    This: What’s your claime [sic] to fame?”  is known as a tu quoque fallacy, idiot. If I were the subject of this thread it might be a valid question. But I’m not, and my considerable and lasting achievements are as irrelevant to this subject as your stupid question.

    Does McGovern’s past achievements absolve him from making stupid statements today? Did O.J.’s football achievements allow him to commit murder without being punished? History is filled with very accomplished individuals who’ve ‘lost it’, had ‘meltdowns’, or ‘turned to the darkside’ later in life. I can think of a number of individuals who are contemptible creeps who had considerable achievements earlier in life.

    How about you? Have you ALWAYS been a mentally crippled wretch, or is this just a recent development? 

  • TeakWoodKite

    retired it is interesting what Ray Mcgovern said when contrasted with his recent article…
    The Fourth Estate is dead,’ former CIA analyst declares’

    So now what?

    Happy holidays to you and yours.

  • TeakWoodKite

    He is not a journilist. He is an anarchist. he is the product of the “cookbook”….

    I agrre to the extent that open government is not a secritive one.

  • TeakWoodKite

    He is not a journalist. He is an anarchist, he is the product of the “cookbook”….  
     
    I agree to the extent that open government is not a secretive one.

  • TeakWoodKite

    “No person has been harmed in the publishing of information, thus far. ”

    Can this be empirically confirmed as a statement of fact?

    I am not anyone to prove a negitive, but how can this statement be made as definitive?

  • Tom Sears

    I have made this point before, but have had no response.  Manning stole documents.  He sold stolen documents to Assange.  Were any of us to do this we would be guilty, in the case of Manning, of selling stolen material.  In the case of Assange, he purchased stolen property….and new it was obtained illegally.  The argument that Assange is not a US citizen doesn’t apply.  The fact he is not a citizen does not make it right.  I’d be interested if McGovern would advise his children that stealing something, then selling it, or purchasing it is acceptable within the scope of ‘being a journalist’.  Somehow, the moniker of ‘journalist’ doesn’t set well with me as a model of moral behavior.  

  • Tom Sears

    I’m a bit confused here.  Does McGovern’s combat or CIA connection make him the model for moral behavior?  I think not.

  • EllenD

    I actually agree with Ray McGovern. RMcG seems like a reasonable person to me,

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    A couple of things: is McGovern considered to be a journalist, or is he a prof of journalism or something?  If not, this is his opinion.  It is all well and good that he worked for the CIA and was in combat, but that does not make him an expert on journalism.  It is a logical fallacy (appeal to authority). 

    McGovern has appeared at rallies on Manning’s behalf, which I find disturbing.  That’s my opinion, FWIW.

  • Noogan

    OA:

    McGovern’s not an asshole at all. He’s not an “apologist” for Assange, either; he’s just pointing out the hypocrisy of media hysteria about Assange. And, he’s against the Iraq war and the continuation of the Afghanistan war. He wasn’t against our initial invasion of Afghanistan as far as I know, and I’ve been reading McGovern for many years. He served for 27 years as a CIA analyst, and as Surfered pointed out, he served in infantry in Vietnam too. There are an awful lot of Vietnam Vets who are against the Iraq War–they know all too well what sort of lies governments tell regarding wars. Give them some credit for knowing what they’re talking about, even if you don’t agree about Assange. 

  • Noogan

    Who’s Ray McGovern–a founder of VIPS [Larry Johnson is also a member]. 

    http://www.americanswhotellthetruth.org/pgs/portraits/ray_mcgovern.php

  • Noogan

    Ray McGovern has been a journalist for years. He’s been published in numerous publications both in print and online, and he regularly appears on talk shows. He is a practicing “journalist” for all intents and purposes. Since Journalists are not licensed professionals, he fits the criteria. I have a degree in journalism and can find no reason whatsoever to discount McGovern’s role as JOURNALIST. He practices journalism according to every ethical and professional standard I’m aware of. 

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    I should say, and not expect y’all to assume, that I find it disturbing abt Manning because it appears he committed treason – stealing classified US documents and providing them to a foreign national would rise to that level, I think. And it wasn’t for “the greater good” that he did this, from what I gather.  Generally speaking, “whistleblowers” don’t brag abt what they did.

    While I can at least see how he gets to defending Assange, Manning is a whole other matter

  • Noogan

    That’s complete bullshit. He is no anarchist, I can assure you. Why don’t you do some research, TWK. McGovern’s been writing articles for a very long time. He’s also been running a Christian ministry for a very long time. He’s served his country for decades, both in the military and at the CIA. If you don’t know anything about him, perhaps you should do some research before you start smearing the guy. 

  • makeji

    The issue isn’t whether McGovern is a journalist but whether Assange is a journalist and even if he (Assange) is - whether he has the right to disseminate stolen material that can be considered treasonous.

    As far as blood being shed, it has been alluded to that people have indeed been harmed by the release of this data, although nothing “hard” has been released.

    One more point about journalists and ethics: over the past several years and most specifically during the Obama campaign, journalistic ethics have been thrown to the wayside. The most professional are those on Fox – not the opinion shows, the news programs during the day. They often seem to be left leaning because the coverage on the other so-called news programs are so leftist in their views. Words matter and the choice of words and language used to report tells the tale.

  • Noogan
  • Noogan

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_McGovern

    The point is that Ray McGovern’s got more experience in his pinky finger than people here have in their fantasies about themselves. McGovern’s neither an anarchist or an asshole–WHAT HE IS, is a man who’s EMINENTLY qualified to offer his opinion on a news program about Assange. You don’t need to agree with him; but at least have a little respect for a man who’s worked for every president since REAGAN as an intelligence expert. 

    Sheesh. The level of knowledge around here is disappointing sometimes. Ray McGovern’s been around a very long time SERVING THIS COUNTRY. 

  • Noogan

    He’s a VERY reasonable person, and a very smart, knowledgeable and experienced person as well. I’m glad you think so too. 

  • Noogan

    http://www.truth-out.org/article/ray-mcgovern-why-cheney-lost-it-when-joe-wilson-spoke-out
    Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in Washington, DC. He was a CIA analyst for 27 years and is on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

  • Noogan

    http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1871.html

    McGovern experienced history during Vietnam, and he remembers Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers episode. You might try to consider history plays a part in his thinking, even if you don’t agree with his opinion. 

  • Diana

    So first I find out that Assange was wanted on these charges long before these latest leaks, but it appears no one wanted to help. Then I find out that he raped an unconscious woman, that there are NO laws in Sweden about having sex and a condom breaks…That was a lie put out by Assange’s lawyers that was repeated over and over in the media with no fact checking.

    The second woman begged him to stop and he held her down and raped her. Neither had anything to do with condoms. Only to find out today Moore and Olbermann called the charges, “Hooey” Excuse me? Having sex with an unconscious woman against her will is OK? I think not. I’m outraged.
    http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/12/15/mooreandme-on-dude-progressives-rape-apologism-and-the-little-guy/

  • Noogan

    Coulter’s whole argument rests on the case that Assange has harmed US interests. Where is the evidence for that? 

    I don’t think Coulter’s all that correct on this issue, despite the fact that I don’t see Assange as some sort of “hero” either.

    By Coulter’s argument, the New York Times journalist who revealed the Bush administration’s illegal spying without warrants also “harmed US interests.” But that’s specious, since Bush’s warrantless spying has been ruled unconstitutional by the courts. 

    Ron Paul had the right attitude about this if you ask me: Assange and Wikileaks have exposed our delusional foreign policy. 

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Listen, Noogan – I am not trying to smear Ray McGovern, and I am familiar with him.  Perhaps I should have said I do not accept his argument for WHY Assange is a journalist.  Yes, Jefferson said what he did abt the free press, but I am fairly confident he had a fair amt to say on treason as well. 

    Even accepting his role as a journalist, which I willingly do, his defense of Assange is his opinion.  I can disagree with his conclusions while still appreciating his service to this country, his religious work, and everything else he has accomplished in his life.  (Afterall, he is not an attorney, so his defense of Assange and Manning, which I find more difficult to accept, is not based on law, but his opinion.)

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    I might add, his Christian work is neither here nor there in regard to journalism and this particular issue.  Great that he does it, and that he is committed to that.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Yes, I knew that whole condom story was a bunch of hooey, and a way to try and diminish what this man did to these two women.  Yet, you have Michael Moore wanting to pay this guy’s bail.   What does that say?

    Thank you for highlighting this, Diana.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    Listen, Noogan – I am not trying to smear Ray McGovern, and I am familiar with him.  Perhaps I should have said I do not accept his argument for WHY Assange is a journalist.  Yes, Jefferson said what he did abt the free press, but I am fairly confident he had a fair amt to say on treason as well.   
     
    Even accepting his role as a journalist, which I can see, his defense of Assange is his opinion.  I can disagree with his conclusions while still appreciating his service to this country, his religious work, and everything else he has accomplished in his life.  (Afterall, he is not an attorney, so his defense of Assange and Manning, which I find more difficult to accept, is not based on law, but his opinion.)

  • TeakWoodKite

    oops Noogan, I was speaking of the wiki dude. Not Ray McGovern. Sorry I did not use the Wiki dudes name. My bad. Sorry.

  • FLDemFem

    I agree totally about Manning. I think he committed treason. I was reading the post about his confinement conditions, solitary and only one hour a day out of the cell. Well, the first thing that popped into my head when I read the comments commiserating with his current circumstances was that he is lucky to be alive. 50 years ago he probably would have been shot for treason shortly after being caught. He is in the military, after all. He gave classified documents to a foreign national who, for all he knew, could have been an agent of a foreign government. Not that I think the Australians, or the Swedes, are interested in reading our diplomatic chit chat, but how was Manning to know that the information would stay with Assange, or that it would go to him in the first place? Could have been going to anyone, he didn’t deal directly with Assange, from what I have read. As far as I am concerned, Manning committed treason, and he should, at the very least, be shoved into Leavenworth and left there to rot. And as for Assange, being a journalist, or not, does not change the fact that he committed espionage, and then made his finds public. The first part, espionage, is what is important, not making the things public. Toss him into prison with Manning for a few years, 20 or so. End of problem.

  • Diana

    Here Amy, is a great link to the truth, the penal codes for Sweden, etc.

    http://jessicavalenti.com/2010/12/10/aol-news-at-the-center-of-%E2%80%9Csex-by-surprise%E2%80%9D-lie-in-assanges-rape-case/

    BTW I really missed your posts! I tried several times to write to you over at your blog. I can’t seem to get that blog to work with anyone…probably user error. Me :)

  • Diana

    BTW forgot to mention that Moore and Olbermann gave out these women’s real names so people could stalk and harass them on Facebook, their blogs, and other social outlets. Silence the victims…

  • Onofre’s arm

    Well Noogan, perhaps my initial impression was a bit harsh, however, he said a very clear declarative statement, that we went into both Iraq and Afghanistan under a false premise, and that’s quite simply a lie. He also IS an Assange apologist in this interview, when a condemnation of Assange is seems more appropriate. Based upon these items and his rather nonchalant dismissal of the Wikileaks affair in general, his credibility and integrity is less than inspiring.

  • Onofre’s arm

    Well Noogan, perhaps my initial impression was a bit harsh, however, he said a very clear declarative statement, that we went into both Iraq and Afghanistan under a false premise, and that’s quite simply a lie. He also IS an Assange apologist in this interview, when a condemnation of Assange would seem to be more appropriate, if cares about this country. Based upon these items and his rather nonchalant dismissal of the Wikileaks affair in general, his credibility and integrity is less than inspiring.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    I don’t understand why someone of McGovern’s stature would support Assange and Manning, especially to the extent he is.  I understand abt the Pentagon Papers, but this theft wasn’t to expose wrong doing by the US – it was to humiliate it, and thwart our relationships with other countries because Assange doesn’t like us.  That is a whole different thing altogether.  It wasn’t righteous – it was unethical.

    FlDemFem is right – had Manning done this 50 years ago, he would have been charged with treason, and likely executed (not that I support the death penalty, but that is generally what happens to traitors). People would have been shocked that someone would do something of this nature and brag abt it, especially those who had taken an oath for the country. 

    According to Sec. Clinton, Pres. Clinton, Eric Holder, and others, what Manning and Assange did put people’s lives at risk.  That is a big deal.  Manning is lucky he gets an hour out a day.

    It seems to me that, at the very least, Manning colluded with Assange to get this data to him.  I really want to know how those two even got connected.

  • Rabble Rouser Rev. Amy

    You have GOT to be kidding me.  Oh, why do I even say it – I know you’re not.  That speaks volumes abt them.

    I’m sorry you’re having a hard time writing me over there.  It’s a Google thing.  As far as I know, you just have to create a name and sign up.  I hope you are successful – I’d love to read what you have to say.

    And thank you for the compliment.  What a lovely thing to say!  Thanks for the link – late for me, so I’ll check it out tomorrow.  Great work, though!

  • Diana

    I’m sorry for the three posts, I also have a hard time posting here. Most the time it seems to go into the twilight zone…that’s why I said probably user error.

    Today I was just trying to send you these links over there privately. I always take the time to visit your blog everyday. Olbermann canceled his twitter account today for being called out on it. I couldn’t find the tweet and re-tweet listing the women’s names, but I’m also unfamiliar with Twitter. Hopefully you or someone here that know what their doing can find them.

    Several sites posted the links, but I was so livid after reading everything going on today. I didn’t save any. Here lately I tend to let myself get too frustrated over things I can’t control. I got really sick for awhile, got so thin my family thought I had anorexia, that I was starving myself to death, or lying to them and was dying. Now my patience for anything is just gone. Lot of things going on with my health right now. But I have to just let go and let God, he knows what he’s doing and to remember to never take one moment for granted.

  • TeakWoodKite

    This the exact point that I have been hasing out for the last months.

    It is very difficult at times to reconcile the views of people one respects, as honorable intelligent people, who hold divergent opinions based their experience.

    One has to ask themselves how Ray McGovern, Larry Johnson, Mel Goodman and ‘retired’ (for example)  arrive at the opinions and conclusions they express. There are over 100 years of experience between them, yet while there are areas of agreement, there are issues they disagree. To the extent the process an experienced intelligence officer will use, being based on proven methods of inquiry…how is it different opinions as the reality of the facts are arrived at?

    Tom Sears makes the point that is as valid as Ray McGovern’s view. Wikiman is guilty of receiving stolen property manning is guilty of selling it and much more. I linked an article by Ray McGovern that in his view the 4th estate is dead and the internet is redefining the concept of journalism.

    Mr. Johnson has made the point that leaks happen and one must decide if the leak rises to the level of causing irreparable harm or if it is one in which the lie is exposed.

    Mel Goodman is dissapointed that the lies continue in the Obama administration, and offers few suggestions on the way forward except for the obvious.

    retired speaks of seeing to it that Manning is held accountable.

    We have read that US dipolmatic personel are being shuffled around worldwide because of disclosures of classified information.
    Is it a good thing that this leak has happened?

    To put this incontext, I recommend John B’s show tonight as he discussed the Iranian influence in the mideast and in the the America’s. While we are focused on the merits of Wikimans “stupid is as stupid does”, Iran is making inroads where the United States can not. Why? 

    The one thing I can thank each of these individuals for is wading through a sewer pipe of lies and destructive personal agendas adn alerting us to the important issues of National Security.

    (again teak, “As always, should you or any member of the I.M. Force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.”

  • TeakWoodKite

    This the exact point that I have been hashing out for the last few months.  
     
    It is very difficult at times to reconcile the views of people one respects, as honorable intelligent people, who hold divergent opinions based their experience and areas of expertise.  
     
    One has to ask themselves how Ray McGovern, Larry Johnson, Mel Goodman and ‘retired’ (for example)  arrive at the opinions and conclusions they express. There are over 100 years of experience between them, yet while there are areas of agreement, there are issues on which they disagree. To the extent the process an experienced intelligence officer will use, being based on proven methods of inquiry…how is it that different opinions as to the reality and import of the facts are arrived at?  
     
    Tom Sears makes the point that is as valid as Ray McGovern’s view. Wikiman is guilty of receiving stolen property. Manning is guilty of selling it and much more. I linked an article by Ray McGovern that in his view the 4th estate is dead and the internet is redefining the concept of journalism.  
     
    Mr. Johnson has made the point that leaks happen and one must decide if the leak rises to the level of causing irreparable harm or if it is one in which the lie is exposed.  
     
    Mel Goodman is dissapointed that the lies continue in the Obama administration, and offers few suggestions on the way forward except for the obvious.  
     
    retired speaks of seeing to it that Manning is held accountable.  
     
    We have read that US dipolmatic personel are being shuffled around worldwide because of disclosures of classified information.  
    Is it a good thing that this leak has happened?  
     
    To put this in context, I recommend John B’s show tonight as he discussed the Iranian influence in the mideast and in the the America’s. While we are focused on the merits of Wikimans “stupid is as stupid does”, Iran is making inroads where the United States can not. Why?   
     
    The one thing I would thank each of these individuals for is wading through a sewer pipe of lies and destructive personal agendas alerting us to the important issues of National Security.  
     
    (again teak, “As always, should you or any member of the I.M. Force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.”

  • TeakWoodKite

    I really want to know how those two even got connected.

    That would be interesting to walk that one back…. Chances are that Manning was familar with Wikileaks in his line of work and had access to cables and internal communications relating to Wikileaks.

  • Onofre’s arm

    “Coulter’s whole argument rests on the case that Assange has harmed US interests. Where is the evidence for that? ”  

    No it doesn’t Noogan, and you’re being disingenuous. Not all crimes cause actual harm, but they’re still crimes. If a mugger snatches your purse, without physically harming you, runs half a block and smack into a policeman who apprehends him, recovers your purse, and immediately returns it to you, what harm have you suffered? Should the policeman let the mugger go because you’re unable to quantify your damages? No harm, no foul Noogan? Martha Stewart went to jail, not because she had done anything that harmed anybody, but because she lied to the FBI. What damages were caused because Martha merely lied about activities she was involved with that weren’t illegal, just tawdry? Absent of demonstrable damages, she still broke the law, and paid dearly for it.

    The recent Christmas Tree bomber in Oregon didn’t hurt anyone, should they just set him lose?  

    It is irrelevant whether the leaked information has caused any actual harm to the U.S., the act of obtaining it, possessing it, and dissembling it is still a crime according to the statutes that Coulter referred to, 

  • Docelder

    Iran is making inroads where the United States can not. Why? - Because in the Mideast people relate to Iran. I imagine in China people relate to North Korea and in South America people relate to Chavez. We have a way of coming across as daddy warbucks trying to buy our friends and influence… when all we really need to do is be America and let the cultural war do the heavy work for us. Why crawl around in caves and fight on the terrorists home turf when we can sit back and let youtube, MTV and MTV make the kids of the world want to grow up to be like Americans. That is way more powerful and easy to sell than… go blow yourself up for some virgins in the afterlife. But we have to fight with bullets instead of ideas, we try to force instead of leading. So here we are, broke as a nation, policing the very world in a thankless role… have we forgot who we are or what? Why in the world would the Mideast, China or South America want what we are offering up right now? We are way of track from what we are… what we were and from what we could be again. If only somebody in charge had vision.

  • Docelder

    I agree with McGovern as well actually. If wikileaks isn’t the press then it won’t be protected and none of the Internet blogs or unconventional outlets will be protected. This is dangerous territory to think otherwise. The Private had a duty to this country and he was derelict in it. Intentionally so. Prosecute the Private and better yet protect the data from now on more stringently. On the other hand… Assange is outside of our jurisdiction. Like what was leaked or not we have no business trying to pass new laws to be able to prosecute this guy for his website or his model of journalism. Like the model or not, its still journalism to me. Guerilla journalism maybe, but journalism nonetheless. But this is what makes the Internet great.

  • Hot Librarian

    Yes he is registered with the relevant union in Australia. 

  • Hot Librarian

    Because Joe Biden saisd so today at the UN Security meeting. He said it was just embarrassing.

  • Hot Librarian

    “stupid is as stupid does’ is not a correct description of the Us cables. There are some very relevant observations & infomation including the ME. Chevron & Tehran , Ghaddafi & Britain & BP , Lebanon & Hezbollah.

    It is the best read ever.It is only through WL that citizens of many countries are learning what goes on in their name by The Grand Lizard League ( as it were!

  • Hot Librarian

    Diane- Assange answered questions in Sweden & the charges were dropped. He was given permission to leave the country.That is a fact.

    Next after seeming collusion between the 2 ladies  their story changed & they found another prosecutor. 

    As NO charges have been laid (bad term!) you do not know  them . 

    The ladies themselves had no problems at the time  -they continued the relationship & one gave him a party.

    They are obviously unhurt & can provide no forensics . Yet  Sweden puts out a RED alert.

    It is the political nature of the charges that he is arguing.

    The British judge stated that it did not appear to be a serious offense if it was already dropped.

    Your HATRED for Assange is simply embarrassment you feel that a single person undermined American Exceptionalism.

  • candymarl red bone cracker

    I agree that laws passed by the Houses should be transparent as they affect all of us. 

    But where do we draw the line when it comes to the release of classified information?  If Secret information is okay why stop there?  Let’s release TS info.  Government/politcians lie. There’s a shocker -NOT.

    Assange is a specific case under a particular circumstance.  Damage control? All administrations, irrespective of party,  do it.

    Saying silencing Assange will cause the government to control or shut down the internet is a bit far-fetched.  Why?  Because any old excuse will do for government control of any medium they consider a threat to their power or influence. That’s true if you don’t have a Democratic Republic. Guess ours is gone.

    There’s not much anyone can do anyway.  When no one went to jail for outing Ms. Plame that was classified information yet the PTB and the courts looked the other way.  They set the precedent and I can’t say I blame Assange for using it to his advantage.

    In all of this mess I’ve noticed one thing hasn’t changed. Women who charge rape are money grubbing liars who make it up on a whim.  Our own government stats show women are raped in this country every few mintues.  Guess they are all lying as well.
    These same stats show most women don’t report rape for just that reason.

    WTH is happening to our country?

  • Noogan

    Wha? 

    I’m not being the least disingenuous; I’m being completely straightforward. 

    Where is the evidence that Assange has harmed US interests? I agree that he’s embarrassed the US government with secret behind the scenes missives; I agree that he’s exposed things we didn’t want exposed. But where is the evidence that he has actually harmed US interests, other than the interest to keep “email messages” secret from the US public? 

    I don’t think Assange is a “hero,” but neither was the New York Times a “hero” when they posted the Pentagon Papers; both were simply actors reacting to government actions and reporting what government actions. Both were essentially using information provided by whistleblowers to shed light on actions by the government. Assange isn’t an American citizen, and Manning is in jail for violating the UCMJ, which I believe he did, so have no quarrel with his arrest or the charges against him. 

    The Christmas Tree Bomber in Oregon was entrapped by an FBI poster ON FACEBOOK who enticed him into spouting off his stupidities; he was then encouraged to act out his stupidities by the same FBI, who provided him with the directions and the means to act out his stupidities. A sad young person too stupid to know that venting his stupidites on Facebook can not be considered much of a real threat if you ask me. 

    It is most certainly not irrelevant “whether the leaked information has caused any actual harm to the US” since THAT is the essence of Coulter’s ARGUMENT. 

  • Noogan

    A “condemnation” of Assange would seem to be more appropriate. That is your perspective, perhaps, but I differ; thus I could be called an Assange “apologist” even though I am not. I simply question the assertions that he has “harmed US interests” by divulging secrets that embarrass us. I also question the repercussions of jumping to such conclusions because of the impact it could have on freedom of the press–notwithstanding my contempt for much of today’s press, I would not want these threats and intimidations to mean further restrictions on the public’s right to know what it’s government is up to. Sunlight is the best disinfectant in my view. Secrecy has a way of propping up chicanery. A little disinfectant every once in a while, keeps us all squeaky clean. :)

    We went into both Iraq and Afghanistan “under false premises.” Well, in fact, McGovern has a point, since G.W. Bush planned to effect regime change in Iraq before he was even President, and the 9/11 attack was committed by 15 SAUDIS, not Afghans, and most of all, because The US Government had long been negotiating with the Taliban up to the point we chose to use the 9/11 attacks to invade first Afghanistan, and then move our troops and assets to Iraq and leave Afghanistan to allow the Taliban to regroup. Why didn’t we press our advantage in the North in the very beginning when we had the chance to actually catch Osama Bin Laden? Do you ever wonder about that?

    Why Those are all in whole or in part what I call “false premises.” I can’t speak for McGovern, but I wonder if that is what he is referring to. McGovern’s credible in my book; but of course, you are free to disagree with him. 

  • Noogan

    Well, okay then. You can call Assange an asshole any time you like! :)

  • Noogan

    Yeah, I agree, Docelder. I may not like what Assange did, but I fear the repercussions on journalism as a result of getting overly wrought up about it. I also think sometimes it’s in your best interests to NOT REACT, thereby giving your enemies ammunition against you. In other words, by making such a big deal about it all the time on all the blogs and media, aren’t you actually pointing people in the direction of the documents?! 

    Why would people who claim Assange has harmed us so much, continuing to bring it up!? Shouldn’t they just act like it was really nothing? Seems counter-intuitive to me to keep making such a fuss over it. 

  • Onofre’s arm

    What a load of hogwash Noogan, good grief, you’re losing it.

  • Noogan

    Listen RRRAmy, what Assange did is no different than what the New York Times did or Daniel Ellsberg did with the Pentagon Papers; moreover, it’s certainly no different than what bloggers do every day. It is journalism in today’s culture. And McGovern’s a journalist by every definition of the word. 

    What Jefferson had to say about TREASON referred, nearly always, to abuse of power by the federal government. If Jefferson were here today, I would wager he’d be saying that freedom of the press is paramount to counteract abuse of power by the government:

    I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion. ~ Thomas Jefferson

  • Noogan

    I was responding in my initial response to you RRRAmy because you asked whether or not he “is a prof of journalism!” If you knew him–or so my thinking went–you’d know he is not a prof of journalism.

    So, I was simply informing you about him. Sorry if that offended you, but as so often happens, people are neither responding in real time, or able to respond face to face, so intentions are not easy to discern!

    You are free to disagree with McGovern. of course. However, I have to take issue with your point about McGovern’s experience and knowledge and service to country–years in infantry intelligence, decades in CIA intelligence, Presidential briefer for Reagan, G.H.W. Bush and others as an “appeal to authority, i.e., logical fallacy.” 

    It is simply a fact that someone who’s academic, military, and intelligence credentials give him credibility to speak authoritatively on a subject translates into respect–not necessarily agreement, just ordinary decent RESPECT for their actual accomplishments. It must be annoying to Larry Johnson when people equate their opinion on intelligence matters to HIS opinion on intelligence matters. Certainly, Larry’s experience and authority are more deserving of respect than an accounting clerk or social worker without any experience in the subject. So, it’s as much a tautology to conflate respect for a person’s authority on a subject to “appeal to authority, i.e., logical fallacy” as it is to say disliking Obama means one is a racist. 

  • Onofre’s arm

    Where would you draw the line on revealed secrets Noogan? If a reporter had obtained the date and location of the D-day invasion, would it have been “disinfecting sunshine” for him to splash that information across the headlines? He could rationalize it by claiming that it was his OPINION that the D-day plans were lousy, that more men would be killed unless the Generals come up with a better plan, and there was no real harm in exposing the plans because the Allies will simply change their plans. The reporter could pat himself on the back for his patriotic efforts that saved countless lives, IN HIS OPINION!

    It’s impossible to quantify the ‘damages’ that this massive dump of classified material will have, Noogan, just like it would be difficult for you to quantify the damages of the failed mugging I mentioned above. BUT THERE ARE DAMAGES in the failed mugging, your liberty to safely walk down the side walk has been violated, the mental and emotional trauma you’ll experience, while impossible to measure, will still be real. How does the Oracle Noogan measure the negative effects that this simply ‘embarrassing’ information will have on our relationships with countries all over the world? 

    The absolute necessity for our government to keep secrets has ALWAYS trumped the public’s need to know, and it’s not up to you, me, and the asshole Assange to decide what should be secret and what should be public knowledge, for so many obvious reasons that only an ignorant child would question the need. 

  • Onofre’s arm

    Would you call this a “harmful” effect of the Wikileaks mischief, Noogan?

    http://www.itnews.com.au/News/242051,un-mulls-internet-regulation-options.aspx

  • TeakWoodKite

    How Rumsfieldian of you. Known knowns…Known unknowns…..

  • truthtelling007

    Tell that to all the major news papers. Their legal staff will have elaborate answers for you…Promise!

  • truthtelling007

    And as a tax paying citizen, why don’t government documents belong to you?

  • truthtelling007

    Red herring: one main stream or independent news organization….

    Well he’ll state that his Organization is such a thing…then it would be your subjective assertion that it would not be.

    This is the game that those who control message love to play (cnn, fox, nbc, abc, etc…) They try to block anyone who isn’t one of themselves out of the equation so then…IS…No Quarter An Independent News Source?…

    This is a combination ad hominem fallacy and red herring. Nice job.

  • truthtelling007

    It has been the consensus statement from Gates, Biden, Mullen and others…it would seem to fit the official speak.

  • +

    Completely different regarding Plame. Novak was not charged because he was a journalist and did not commit a crime. Rove, Armitage, Libby and even Cheney should have been charged with a crime, as they were the ones how outed Plame. Can you see the distinction? The 1st Ammendment protects Novak, but not the government employees who revealed the top secret info. It is up to the government to protect their own information and not the press. How does the press even know what is considered secret or not? It is not their call.

  • TeakWoodKite

    Have some eggnog…

  • TeakWoodKite

    High Plains drifters