Current Article

An Exchange Worth Your Time

By Larry Johnson on October 16, 2008 at 10:17 AM in Current Affairs

I’m impressed by the thoughtfulness of many of those who choose to comment on NoQuarter articles. An exchange about Barack Obama’s so-called economic program was particularly informative. I am posting it as a full article for your education and entertainment.

First there was this from an apparent Obama supporter (obviously someone who knows nothing of economics):

Comment by oboe | 2008-10-16 04:22:00
this is why the country went into a bottomless pit and never returned, during Roosevelt’s day — when income from the highest tax bracket (equivalent to about $2.2 million and over, today) was taxed at 95%.

Taxing the incredibly rich, and slightly increasing tax rates on the well-off, won’t stop anyone from having jobs.

Right wing republican bullshit, once again.

This tripped the switch in a longtime NoQuarter regular, Indie Dogg, who wrote:

Comment by IndieDogg | 2008-10-16 05:17:22 | Edit This

Taxing the incredibly rich, and slightly increasing tax rates on the well-off, won’t stop anyone from having jobs.

Right wing republican bullshit, once again.

Wow, Oboe, or is it Opie? Quite impressive.

I am certainly swayed by your thoughtful insights.

Your economics degree is, I assume, from Oxford, considering the sophisticated way you turn a phrase, and the inescapable logic of your reasoned arguments. Quite fascinating.

Or…. sorry, but more like: Typical ignorant Democrat “where’s my check” mentality. We’ll just take money from businesses and people and they’ll go right back to work earning some more of it so we can take that, too.

After all it’s only super rich people whom none of us know anyway. They all live in castles and sit on piles of money they only have because their grandpappy was filthy rich too. No way they could have worked for it. Or earned it.

Well, guess what, Capitalism without capital doesn’t work. And you and your supreme leader aren’t talking only about the castle crowd. You’re talking about choking every last dime you can get your hands on out of the American investor. Which includes business, large and small.

I have a question for you. Do you know anyone who goes to work every day who does not work for a business? Do we have jobs without businesses? What, do we hire each other to sit around and help us wait for the mail for our check to come so we can go buy some bread?

When you take what one person has earned (not voluntarily, through charity, but by force, through edict) and hand it to another, do you not understand what that does to productivity?

Do you have any passing notion of what has fueled the increase in the GDP of the U.S. for years now? Increased productivity. More product from the same work hours.

And where is our capital invested? Assuming you think we still have some. It’s in our houses. That’s not (or, at least, it’s not supposed to be, before people started playing Monopoly on real streets with real homes) fungible. That’s a residence. You live in that money, you don’t spend it.

Never mind, too complicated for you I imagine, considering the trained chimp level of your comment. But, okay, let’s make it simple. You want to “spread the wealth.” Not your wealth, of course, why does it always seem to work out that way. Rather rich people’s money.

Used to be, people thought America was the land where you work hard and play by the rules and there’s no limit to what you can do.

But you and your pals want to tell people sure, that’s okay up to a point, but that’s all going to change. You see, now we’re going to cap what you can earn from your hard work and we’re going to take the rest and spend it on whatever we feel like and hand it out to the oppressed (and we get to decide who that is) so they can live cool, too.

Wherever that’s been tried, do you have any idea what percentage of those “pay the poor” programs has traditionally been eaten up by administrative costs, expenses of the bureaucracy that’s required to run the whole thing, and the dollars siphoned off to this group or that. Groups that act as “intermediaries” for the funds. Groups in touch with the poor and better able to identify needs and conduct community outreach?

Acorn and it’s progeny.

Do you know how much money actually makes it to the truly needy who have tried as hard as they can but have been knocked down by disease or catastrophe not of their own making?

You really think Roosevelt was that simple? You and your 95% tax rate talking point?

You’re as blockheaded as your half-wit answer. Get serious, study up and come back, but only if you can explain your Messiah’s tax plan and, specifically, who would pay more and who less, and what would happen to the investment of capital in this country, not only by our own citizens, but by those who are propping up our paper economy. I’ll give you a hint. A lot of them ride bicycles and eat a lot of Chinese Food.

You people are such blinded fools.

To follow in the rapture after a man who has, simply, no record of accomplishment in any endeavor in which he has ever entered. Right, he graduated law school; nobody said he didn’t have a brain. That’s theory and regurgitation. I did it, too. No big deal.

But, that’s apparently it.

No initiatives, no hint of this grand visionary until somebody said “Hey, you need some visionary stuff, things to promise people, if you’re going to run for President; people like to hear all about how you’ve got all these secret plans that are gonna save the world. No biggie that you haven’t mentioned them until now, nah, they know you were busy becoming a radical revolutionary, you didn’t have time to actually DO anything with your life. We get that. We’ll make some cool ads and say all kinds of good stuff. And, if we don’t know what to say, we’ll just listen to those other ones and repeat back to them whatever they say. This shit is easy, really. People will believe anything. And, you talk real pretty. People like that.”

Right. 100 of the leading economists in the world sign a statement pointing out how your policy boomerang man’s economic ideas are basically voodoo but you strike back with the clever retort: “Typical Republican bullshit.”

I’m sure they will all be studying your remarks closely to gain the insight that they are obviously lacking.

I assume you’re on Barry’s panel of economic advisors. Perhaps he’ll slide you in as head of the Treasury Department. You’ve obviously got some brilliant economic theories to bring to bear on our nation’s credit meltdown.

doc99

UCLA Economists: Roosevelt’s policies prolonged the depression by seven years.

katmandu

The US unemployment rate in 1938 was higher than it was under Hoover in 1931.
Sue

That’s true.

If any of you haven’t read “The Forgotten Man”, I would highly recommend it.

http://JohnMcCain.com Galt, Master Thrall of Planet Triskelion

The Oborgbot troll forgot to add this to their comment:

“I am Senator Government and approved this message.”

Pennsylvania goes RED!

lol

I recall my dad, a small businessman. He worked HARD for his money and we never wanted for anything, the only luxe item he purchased was the FatDaddy Lincoln my mom wanted.

He hated the tax man.

That said, when it was time for me to register to vote, I asked his advice. He told me he was a Democrat, because the “Democrat was for the working man”. I dutifully registered as a Democrat.

It took a long time before I understood the disconnect – but that’s how ingrained was the FDR/JFK aura, that even though a guy was a small businessman who hated taxes he identified with the Dems rather than the Republicans.

Pennsylvania goes RED!

I don’t know what brought that on except that my Dad was the “Joe Plumber” of the 1960s-70s.

Sue

LOL

“Senator Government”. It was perfect!

http://www.thegsblog.com/ zaine_ridling

Indeed. Someone, or a small business, making 250k/year is not a LOT of money. I don’t mind taxing golden parachutes and $400mn bonuses, however. But killing the investor class is like stabbing a knife in your tire before getting in the car. It frustrates the whole trip.

SnarlingCur

Correct! If you kill investing, you kill EVERYBODY’S 401K and other retirement plans.
lusitania

Another thing that should be taken into consideration is that someone self employed with a salary of $250,000 needs to put some of that away for his retirement as he surely is not covered under any pension plan. The $5000 contributory amount is designed to be a supplement to a retirement plan.

Tax rules are too punitive as it is. Because I made $3500. too much last year, I lost $4000. worth of deductions. Why work? You do better just sitting home on your ass.

Barry’s plans are just fairy tales. He is promising everything, including the kitchen sink to get your vote and he can’t be trusted to accomplish anything.

SnarlingCur

Again, correct. See my post below.

Ellen D.

I’ve had (and have) companies in a number of countries. All C Corp corporations. Now that I work in the US I am running other companies that are S corps and LLCs and these “personal” companies are really hard to manage because everything is funneled through the owners’ personal returns. Taxes are hard to estimate and result in huge prepayments which may or not be accurate (yes, we have accountants) and which generally have to be paid at the most inconvenient times. The worst thing is that all finance decisions must be executed by December 31 – perhaps the worst time to be trying to talk to accountants and run around to banks.
Japanese companies like a March 31 year end. Canadian corps like June 30 (exactly halfway through the year). Why do American accountants like S Corps and LLCs with the accompanying holiday panic? The double taxation argument doesn’t wash – I’ve never been double-taxed in my life owning a C corp. Sorry for the rant. I’m not an accountant – more like a Joe the Plumber.

AnninCA

I have one disagreement with McCain. He should have imposed an increase on personal income tax above a certain threshhold.

Other than that? I agree with McCain much more on economy than Obama.
Not That One

between this excellent exchange, and introducing Joe Plumber to the public (brilliance on McCain’s part) I think we have a game changer folks!
wodiej

everyone should pay the same tax rate! The more money you make the more you pay in taxes anyway. A higher rate based on higher income is BS.

great response by Indiedogg!! I was on here when he posted that. I think he shut Opie up too-

AnninCA

Nope, can’t go with you on flat tax. That penalizes the poor.

We have driven that segment into the ground far enough.

Pennsylvania goes RED!

Any flat tax proposal I’ve seen imposes 0 tax on a family of four earning $35k or less.

http://www.madinthemiddle.blogspot.com churl

Ok so Hoover was a genius and FDR idiot? I get the investor argument and the small business argument since I had one but the other side of the small business coin is the dozens of tax deductions you get for lunch, for cars, for clothes, etc. A salaried person gets no deductions for anything other than mortgage interest; medical deductions are joke.

Let’s not forget the other side of the tax code, too.

waldenpond

Why would a salaried person get business deductions? That makes no sense. A salaried person should never get business deductions as they don’t incur the cost, the corporation does. The employee is always covered up front or reimbursed … flight, meals, mileage etc.

Concerned Citizen

Bravo, IndieDogg! Thanks for posting that reply here Larry.
countryfirst_obamanever

Do we want to kick BO to the curb? Here’s how:

Contact the RNC and tell them they have to run the ad called Rein on national TV. Here is the ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2RZ0sUcVcE

The RNC’s phone number is: (651) 467-2008.

Some other contacts:
Office of the Chairman
Mike Duncan, RNC Chairman
Phone: 202-863-8700
Fax: 202-863-8820
Email: Chairman@gop.com

Also if you can, donate to Let Freedom Ring. Their ad got the best approval from focus groups:
http://www.letfreedomringusa.com/contribute

Keep up the good fight!!
tzada

Someone needs to bring this out. If you tax business overly they will one fold, which allows the large business to step in and set higher rates because the competition is gone. Or the small company has to raise their prices. Both scenarios will cost the consumer. Any so called rebate to the free loaders will get eaten up by the cost of doing business by the over taxed business.
http://JohnMcCain.com Galt, Master Thrall of Planet Triskelion

I think my commenting history make it clear I am a left leaning PUMAcrat. Like most PUMAcrats I hankered for a centrist but she was stolen away from me.

The rhetoric from both sides of the isle is just that: rhetoric. Over the past 8 years both parties have increased government spending. I find Mac to be a sincere reformer but his party’s limited government mantra is nonsense. I find the fundamental difference in the way parties have behaved is not in the size of government spending they want but who they want to give the money to. And even then the Democrats have eagerly handed out tons of money to corporate interests.

I guess my bottom line is we are not voting for a party in this election. We are voting for reform. McCain has a record of reform and what little record he has Obama is certainly not a reformer. Obama is a spender and that’s the last thing we need. We are broke!

wodiej

well said…I agree.
IndyPUMA

I guess my bottom line is we are not voting for a party in this election. We are voting for reform.

Bravo! That’s a statement I certainly agree with. I too wanted someone more centered. Too bad ‘triangulation’ is a bad word these days.

But it is about reform. You cannot push reform without a “Third Way”.
AnninCA

I agree, Galt…..

I think party politics has soured me on the Democrats.

I’m over it. *haha

I am voting moderate, regardless of the label. I’ll let the parties sort it out.

Congress, aka, Dems have a lower rating than Democrats.

The White House, which is killing John today, is viewed as having excessive power.

That’s due to Bush’s lies. They aren’t about Ayers or Acorn. They were about severe issues like “mass weapons of destruction.” THOSE lies mattered.

I think people “get” McCain’s warning. I think we’re all frankly not jumping to the place where we think that Obama is like Bush. We’re also not jumping to Obama’s place where McCain is another Bush.

I think the huge number of still-undecided people are actually quite commonsense. They are mullng over who will actually be able to effect change in Washington for our good.

McCain has the problem of his party. They are, indeed, in disarray. I say, he’ll govern with conscience. He won’t go for a 2nd term. He has nothing to lose. He can be the president with no strings attached, at long last.

Obama has the problem of HIS party. They are, equally, in disarray. They have the lowest approval rating every. I say he’ll ditch that party. He’ll not support them. They will find themselves in the obscure category along with Wright, ACORN, Ayers, and Peloisi, Inc.

What voters, who are clearly still very up-in-the-air, will have to decide: Which risk to take.
Andrew191

Galt,

Voting for reform over party is comendable, but in this race I believe it is more important to vote for sanity over insanity.

I know I may be sounding like a broken record but there is every indication that Obama is a pathological Narcissist. Who he claims to be, anything he proposes, and all of his glorious visions are irrelevent. Narcissists are pathological liars, he will say and do anything to achieve his own goals, nothing else matters. Debating over his policies and promises is pointless, they are distractions that draw your attention away from the fundemental issue that he does not want you to debate, and that issue is that Obama is insane. He can lie with supreme comfidence and composure because he believes his own lies. The author Ali Sina has written an article on the subject that is far more eloquent than I can be. I found it at FaithFreedom.org. Check it out if you can “handle the truth”.

Obama needs only one talent,(I can detect no others) and that is the ability to persuade people to adore him. He’s a “One Trick Phony”.

Andrew

This Andrew agrees with you. I find this the most frightening aspect of all about The Saviour. There are many other reasons for turning away from the Democrats in this election. I hope that people on the fence think long and hard about this one. Who is the real Obama? Just who you say he is.
http://JohnMcCain.com Galt, Master Thrall of Planet Triskelion

Voting for reform over party is comendable, but in this race I believe it is more important to vote for sanity over insanity.

I agree Obama has “issues.” There are a lot of things important in making our decisions.

Annie Oakley

Another “well said” here, Galt.

To IndieDogg, “Ouch! That’ll leave a mark.”
bethtopaz

I’m a Republican and I totally agree with you. Both parties and President Bush are to blame for spending through the roof.

McCain and Palin (who cut spending in AK) will reform our spendthrift government bureaucracy.

hadenough

obama keeps lying and the press keeps not noticing:

obama at last nights debate:
Not only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000, but I also want to give them additional tax breaks, because they are the drivers of the economy. They produce the most jobs.

SALARY.COM™ RELEASES RESULTS OF A COMPREHENSIVE SMALL BUSINESS COMPENSATION SURVEY

Compensation Data from More Than 1,800 Companies Ranging in Size from 1 to 500 Full Time Employees

According to the survey, the national average salary for the CEO/Partner/Owner job function is $258,400; however, compensation varies widely across geographies. For example, small business CEOs/Partners/Owners in the District of Columbia earn $395,000 annually — more than 2.5 times as much as their counterparts in Oklahoma.
…
Executive Job Functions Within a Small Business
The following table lists the median base salary and total cash compensation for each of the 12 executive job functions.

Job Function
CEO/Partner/Owner

Median Base Salary
$233,600
http://www.salary.com/aboutus/layoutscripts/abtl_default.asp?tab=abt&cat=cat012&ser=ser041&part=Par545

That’s median base salary. NOT average. Median means exactly half of small biz make less than 233,600 and exactly half make more than 233,600. Unless that top median is extremely narrow lots of small biz owners, much more than 2%, will get a tax increase. So when obama says, as he keeps doing, “98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000″ obama is lying.

obama has to lie. obama keeps saying he’ll only increase taxes on those making more than $250,000. mccain keeps pointing out that will hurt lots of small biz. Because the “liberal media” refuse to do their job obama can keep lying to the American public.

SnarlingCur

My wife owns a dog grooming business. We are not rich by any means, we’re not even what you would call “well off”. With me being unemployed from the RV business right now, we’re just surviving.

Greta would be the first to tell you; if there weren’t financial advantages to being the owner of the business, no one would do it.

If the Government takes away all the financial advantages away from business owners, why would they even think of putting up with all the hassles of paying the utilities, mortgage/rent/lease, insurance,
not to mention matching the employee’s taxes.

If Obama’s tax plan sees the light of day; Greta has four employees who’s jobs may be at risk, because it may be too expensive to keep them.

AnninCA

I’d like to buy an RV, little one.

Got a good deal? *hehe

SnarlingCur

Even I would have to pay 10% over dealer cost. Some deal eh?

http://www.TheOtherDemocrats.com FloridaEx-Dem

I agree. I own a small business and it’s the tax and financial BENEFITS that keep me putting up with the headaches. We’re not making that much money to begin with. If Obama takes the financial benefits of ownership away, then I’m not going to deal with it and the employees? Gone! Worst case, we’ll keep it to where it is just the size we can run ourselves WITHOUT employees.

Obama can take his ‘plan’ and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine.

I’m not asking for freebies or giveaways. I just don’t want anyone’s sticky fingers in my business.

bethtopaz

You times hundreds of thousands of small business owners.

Obama = greatest depression ever seen in America.

portia9

I also read recently that nearly 20% earn over 250k, not 5%, which makes sense if you think about how many couples file their taxes together. So, would they file separately then, to avoid the increased taxes? That would put a kink in Oblahblah’s plans. And if that 250k mark put me on the hook for a bunch more punitive taxes, I think I’d be real careful not to have to claim more than 249k on my taxes. Why work hard just so Barry and his crew can take more? The capper is that Oblahblah has his millions invested with a firm that caters to the superrich and his investments pay tax free dividends.

HC

Many small businesses incorporate as LLCs taxed as sub S, its quick cheap and easy. I wont digress into a huge tax discussion. Basically whatever is left in your corporate accounts goes on your personal income tax report at the end of the year.

Small businesses need operating funds. A healthy small business bank account does not necessarily mean that the owner is “rich”. Especially in troubled times it makes sense to keep some cash on hand to tide you over.

Punitive taxation is bad for everyone. Taxation for social engineering purposes is wrong on so many levels my head spins.

Obama’s understanding of business reflects the fact that he has never worked an honest day in my life. I have an uncle like this, a college professor, who sneers at plumbers and electricians for “making too much money”. Apparently only the chosen few should have a good life.

Mr. Natural

Obama’s understanding of business reflects the fact that he has never worked an honest day in my life.

Obama’s understanding of business is based on his experience greasing the legal skids for grant applications. That’s what kept Cronies like Ponzi scheme scammer Tony Rezko rolling in federal and state tax dollars while the tenants they pretended to help rotted in squalor.

Pay no attention to that pathological liar behind the curtain.

athy

hadenough-
thank you for this research and this link.
The msm is dumbed down and lazy.
Unfortunately, it is up to the public to spoon feed them the facts and stats.

We need to keep doing this and 527s need to keep pointing out Sen Obama’s lies and errors and the msm’s complicity in what he is doing.

We need more You tube videos- geared towards middle class and YOUNGER voters.

Sen obama is banking on the younger voter’s ignorance caused by inexperience and other factors.
Kids are not being taught in school how to evaluate a political candidate or issues.

They are being INDOCTRINATED instead by whoever gets to them first.

We need to reach younger voters too (but not at the expense of middle class).

Videos with music, short clear sentences and LINKS to reputable sources for followup on the facts as presented in the you tube video or TV ad.This is what is needed to get the youth’s attention.

Sen Obama got to these kids first so it will be tougher for anyone trying to convince them of the truth. The youth will first have to unlearn the lies they have been fed…and then the truth will have to be presented to them using a vehicle they connect with.

Have faith in today’s youth-if facts are presented clearly with the sources (links) as to where these facts were obtained from- you will be able to educate some of these younger voters. Its not too late. Start in your own back yard with younger voters that you come into contact with.

Never…ever..ever give up on today’s youth.
They are smart and savvy and have a lot to offer the world. Do not ‘throw them out’ by letting them succumb to Sen Obama’s (or anyone else’s) lies.

athy

I just finishe reading some posts below by fellow NQ bloggers-

An idea just occurred to me…

PERHAPS….Sen McCain can direct Gov Palin to spend more time/energy going after the youth.

Perhaps she can be featured in one or two ads geared towards the younger voters?

Voters respond very well to her genuiness and determination. Gov Palin has five kids. She is intelligent, savy, beautiful, hip, motherly…

HARP

Biden can`t count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-eeWow_WU

lark

bs is one letter for him.

workingclass artist

It is Obvious to me that Obie is UNEMPLOYED…MOST FOLKS THAT SEE THE WORLD THAT WAY ARE…

http://www.TheOtherDemocrats.com FloridaEx-Dem

But Opie sure has time on his hands to post on a board / blog, huh?

Opie just wants it all given to him. AND if his messiah wins, he’ll be in the crowd on the streets, with torches shouting insults and looting every chance he gets.

Want to see some economic geniuses? I saw this on another board. A member posted some actual financial facts and history, and was torn to shreds by the ‘mob’. http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index.php?showtopic=12427 (I know it’s long but it’s worth the read to give you some insight into the ‘brains’ of the Oborg. There were a few intelligent posts, though. )

The Borg cooperative members simply want the ‘big guy’ to be blamed and the ‘little guy’ to be off the hook.

Mr. Natural

You’ve got nerve, you do.

I haven’t been near the radio show blogs in months. Ed Schultz, Randi Rhodes? I loved ‘em while they bashed Bush. But they turned into complete asses.

What’s really rotten about Rhodes, Schultz, and their ilk is that honest dissent, and by this I mean clever insults and blood drenched vitriol, are completely squelched by their moderators.

What’s left are maiden auntie acts.

MSM Drone

It doesn’t seem possible that Obama can exempt small businesses from his plan and having any chance of successs. National health insurance would cost trillions.

In terms of cost cutting, I’d like to see unions of civil servants banned (private industry ones should be encouraged as they help inflate wages to fair levels) and a 10% salary cut to every job in the Federal government.

Glad McCain is hitting home on small business taxation – it’s the engine that drives American wealth.

AnninCA

He FINALLY got through on that message last night with Joe the Plumber.

I was so wrong in my initial reaction last night.

It was perfect.

Frankly, Joe the Plumber is better than Osama bin Laden landing a hit right now.
http://neverfindout.org/ McHope

and a 10% salary cut to every job in the Federal government.

Great idea!

And thanks Larry, for reposting IndieDogg’s comment.
Wow! Brilliantly argued.

Liz

Interesting article at Redstate. It’s anecdotal, but interesting. I don’t know how to link on this site, but it’s on the front page of RedState. It’s info. from an Obama internal pollster. No way to verify it, just take it as one more piece of potential info..

Excerpt
“He (Obama pollster) replied that Obama’s campaign is extremely nervous about the energized republican base and what he called the “unkown factor” regarding Palin’s draw as a candidate.

In the polls they’re conducting around the country, and my boss wasn’t able to relay specific numbers, the Obama campaign is very, very worried about how Palin appears to be energizing whole groups of people who don’t typically get energized about politics, precisely because she appeals so strongly to the middle class, as well as women and dissatisfied republicans that stayed home in 2006.

More than that, they don’t know how to guage and predict the support of people typically turned off by politics, but that are enamored with her “up from the bootstraps” appeal.

I say all of this because this pollster conveyed strong concern about their standing going into the homestretch. They are very concerned about winning the vote of the middle class and whole swaths of the electorate they consider the “unkowns.” In fact, and based on her conversation with this internal pollster for Obama, he’s not ahead in the polls as we’re being told. He’s at best tied.”

http://JohnMcCain.com Galt, Master Thrall of Planet Triskelion

In the polls they’re conducting around the country, and my boss wasn’t able to relay specific numbers, the Obama campaign is very, very worried about how Palin appears to be energizing whole groups of people who don’t typically get energized about politics, precisely because she appeals so strongly to the middle class, as well as women and dissatisfied republicans that stayed home in 2006

LMAO. Hillary appealed and energized those groups! Donna Brazille you are a fucking idiot and bet on the wrong horse.

Pennsylvania goes RED!

Greta Van Susteren when HRC was winning all the final battleground primaries:

“Doesn’t this raise a huge red flag to the DNC?”

They were so confident in 0bama’s mass appeal, or more likely as we’re now seeing, the massive voter fraud.
AnninCA

Palin is pulling in bigger crowds than Obama, consistently.

And it isn’t because she’s a woman.

It’s because of the message.

McCain and Palin have a STRONG message.

It IS a fight here, no question.

But I love how he’s been flexible, adjusted, and has continued to try to find a way to communicate the real issues.

We’re down to that now. It’s all about issues.

McCain has definitely earned my respect. Palin is terrific. She’ll be forever implanted in my mind, anyway.

I just really, really am impressed.

I am not impressed with the Democrats. They may win, but it will be because of the huge ups and downs of the stock market, and that’s it. They have not run a good campaign.

athena

Oh and lets us not forget the OVER half of billion dollars spent on THAT ONES campaign.

Most every poll was wrong during the primaries. Why the heck would we start to believe them now?

wodiej

thank you for posting….
http://www.TheOtherDemocrats.com FloridaEx-Dem

Here’s the link: http://www.redstate.com/diaries/david_rasbold/2008/oct/15/conversations-with-an-internal-pollster-for-o/

typewriterstreaming

Obama is a swindler. Plain and simple. Man oh man. If he takes the WH people in this country are going to steam in two years, when they finally realize what was done and where they are. Furious.

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=PALIN Mary Cusack

If he wins we won’t have anything to do about it. It will be like nazi germany

Baba Rum Raisin

But, will the trains run on time?

Will we need to invade Poland and annex Alsace and Lorraine?

C.S.

I think we’d start with Canada and Mexico and then move down the South American continent. Wouldn’t want to tackle Russia first; save it for later when we can utilize all the conquered resources. By then, we’d probably have the whole middle east as allies because Soertoro/Obama does want to be “inclusive”.
Portia

No. They will be annexing us–when we all learn French, that is. We wouldn’t want to embarrass the The One.

Mary Kay

Did you all see the article in the Wall Street Journal? I’ll try to find the link, but basically, Obama’s “tax cuts” aren’t really tax cuts, they are refundables. I know that a lot of people aren’t concerned with marginal tax brackets, but according to the American Enterprise institute, if you’re a couple and you’re making $95,000 combined, your marginal tax rate will skyrocket. So, that raise may no longer be a raise. People will be looking for tax shelters instead of investing or spending the money on goods and services. That means more jobs lost.

MSM Drone

This one?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html

OBAMA’s 95% ILLUSION

One of Barack Obama’s most potent campaign claims is that he’ll cut taxes for no less than 95% of “working families.” He’s even promising to cut taxes enough that the government’s tax share of GDP will be no more than 18.2% — which is lower than it is today.

It’s a clever pitch, because it lets him pose as a middle-class tax cutter while disguising that he’s also proposing one of the largest tax increases ever on the other 5%. But how does he conjure this miracle, especially since more than a third of all Americans already pay no income taxes at all? There are several sleights of hand, but the most creative is to redefine the meaning of “tax cut.”…

lark

I don’t want to tip O but there is a reason why O is not able to close the deal. And it is related to his professorial ways. But I am not going to say it until after Nov 4.

http://JohnMcCain.com Galt, Master Thrall of Planet Triskelion

Professional? You are too kind, dear lark.

“I am Senator Government and approved this message.”

(People might want to sign their comments this way! Mac’s priceless Freudian slip says it all about The Precious!)
AnninCA

I was married to one. Nobody ever asked him for his ID, even. Me? Always.

It was an amazing power card, sort of like being a doctor.

Let me tell the truth. He was a silly-nilly. LOL*

I divorced him, finally, because I simply couldn’t stand the idiocy. That’s my defect. I don’t suffer fools.

He couldn’t remember appointments, commitments, et al. And he couldn’t even really publish. I rewrote his dissertation and pulled him through.

My grandmother was the real brains in my past. She did the same for my professor grandfather.

*sigh*

Family patterns, eh?

I have this one clear story. When we were divorcing, I was talking privately with a friend, and I actually whispered that I was the one who pulled his dissertation together AND wrote all of the letters when he was denied tenure. I whispered!

She said, “Ann, why are you whispering?”

I saw right then, oh good grief…..I’m my grandmother.

Obama is, indeed, professorial, and I do know the power that evokes.

Earned? No.

Real? Yes.

rapp

The rich didn’t suffer during the depression, only the poor and middle class. You don’t tax the people who create the jobs with a 50% increase in taxes as Senator Government proposed. They don’t have to invest their money. They can live on their savings. Why would they take a risk if the reward isn’t worth it?

rapp

My household only makes $50,000 a year. Under Obama’s plan I should benefit, but in reality, I don’t. I would have a greater chance of losing my job. Inflation would increase so costs would go up and the difference would actually be an increase. Also because inflation would rise, fewer jobs.

Mary

Not only that, but if Obama imposes a windfalls profit tax, the oil companies will just pass that cost on to you, per gallon.

AND if inflation soars because of all the bailouts and handouts, which cause bigger deficits and reduce the value of your dollar…..then the costs of things you need will actually be MORE than they are now.

Remember the Carter years?

AnninCA

That’s not true. People who were “rich” lost their fortunes.

My grandfather, on the other hand, bought stock at the low. He had a steady job.

He ended up “rich.”

No, your understanding of history is incorrect.

rapp

False. The rich got out of the stock market before it decreased to 10% value. Not all of the rich had their money in the market. The ones that were over-extended because of banks lost their money. Your grandfather had to be one of the rich to still have money to be able to buy stock at 10% value. My family was one of the elite that benefited, they had servants and everything. My grandmother was one of their servants and she married their son.

If you do your research, you will find that the rich stop creating jobs after Hoover raised taxes on the rich. The risk wasn’t worth the reward.

AnninCA

Oh please, nonsense. He was a teacher in a high school in Kansas. LOL*

You are wrong.

rapp

Teachers were well paid back then. Compare their wages to other peoples wages at the time. Anyone with a degree back then made good money.

Sammie

I think there is a lot of confusion about the definition of a small business as well as the $250,000 cut off. I don’t necessarily think the $250,000 applies to the actual income of the small business owner. Clarification on these issues would be very helpful.

Small business owners take on a lot of risk and invest a lot of money to grow their businesses, and it seems as though increasing their taxes would have a negative impact on growth and job creation. Getting a clearer picture of who would be impacted by Obama’s proposals could make a huge difference. Does he want to tax the “greedy” CEO’s or is he going to redistribute Joe’s income, the plumber, electrician or builder who worked his butt off for years just to make a better life for his family?

Does Obama want to provide relief to the middle class, or does he want to make it even harder for those in the middle class to be able to break out and realize the American dream? Is he providing a ladder or putting a ceiling in place?
lark

I appreciate the posting Larry Johnson. Now I can post. Yes, ‘spread the wealth’ is a necessary component in the structure of our society. We do need to spread the wealth. The question is like everything else in life – ‘PROPORTIONALITY.’ And proportionality by degrees. [I am not a economist or even close]

The theory [my theory]. Just for fun. You begin with 50 percent of personal/corporate wealth. Is this proportion 50 keep / 50 pay out in taxes. Does this proportion works? Yes. But does it works best? No.

Does a higher give/keep works better? Say 45keep/55paytax works better? Or does the reverse works better 55keep/45paytax? and so on and so forth in ascending or descending increments. What proportion is optimum?

A series of books on economics can then be written now to move the subject forward. Thousands have been written already.

The higher the taxes the less incentive for all emotional engagement in the process of wealth. Because government is by nature inefficient. The more people keep the more incentive for emotional engagement in the process of wealth. Because people love to see an increase in all issues of performance.

We currently have something close to 50/50. That is very bad already. Obama wants to move us to something like 70/30. His ultimate goal. Socialism running smoothly. Obama wants to build a centrally controlled government managed economy.

Sarah Palin says that she prefers the 700 billion paid for oil to circulate in our country. That’s the correct approach. In essence she wants an approach that tilts towards 55keep/45paytaxes or better. That will make freedom ring and society move vigorously forward. The key is motivation.

If Obama wins, and I hope he doesn’t, then we will have an economy that will be based on paying taxes. The more taxes the more the government can return back to the economy in largess. But because the government is imminently inefficient, the economy will eventually have near zero motivation.

SnarlingCur

Proportionate is the key here, and it depends on where you live.

Where I live; you can still by a house for under $140,000 with two acres of land. In bigger cities like Chicago or Detroit, you couldn’t afford a crack house for that!

A state like Hawaii; the median income is $40 thousand, and the median price for a house is $250 thousand and milk costs $10. They become a welfare state. Hawaii needs better paying jobs, taxing all the many small business there, will not create them.

DeniseL

Did Obama say he would continue or let Bush’s tax cuts expire? Because if he lets them expire a lot of people who make under 250K a year will see their taxes go up.
oowawa

Doc 99 started out this thread by citing “UCLA Economists: Roosevelt’s policies prolonged the depression by seven years.”

Pennsylvania Goes Red questions the validity of “the FDR/JFK aura.”

Most of us are rather disgruntled. What is remarkable about this forum is that so many Democrats and Republicans are finding common ground in recognizing the danger of electing The Precious. I am grateful for this nascent bipartisanship after all of these years of being at each other’s throats.

Consequently, I think it is counterproductive to go back and impugn Roosevelt. Some of us feel that Reagan’s political “aura” is undeserved. Let’s not reopen the wounds of the past and fight these old battles once again. The urgency of the present danger requires that we face this powerful extremist enemy together.
SLW

I’d bet money that the ghost of Herbert Hoover is roaming the White House; he decided to give everything to everybody.- The parallels of now are frightening. He was for railroads, shell oil and the barons and his policies were disastrous- compare the two and you get goosebumps.
Lynn

Obama is already planning his election night party according to drudge. He is really over-confident IMO.

By the way – Obama lied about Acorn last night too, surprise, surprise. He claimed that he represented Acorn in the motor voter law, does he not realize that we can look up his records (well some of them anyway, can’t see his COLB or Harvard transcripts):

Case Name

Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Fed. Sav. Bank Fair Housing/Lending/Insurance

Docket / Court 94 C 4094 ( N.D. Ill. ) FH-IL-0011 State/Territory Illinois

Case Summary

Plaintiffs filed their class action lawsuit on July 6, 1994, alleging that Citibank had engaged in redlining practices in the Chicago metropolitan area in violation of the Equal Credit Opportunity Act (ECOA), 15 U.S.C. 1691; the Fair Housing Act, 42 U.S.C. 3601-3619; the Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution; and 42 U.S.C. 1981, 1982.

Plaintiffs alleged that the Defendant-bank rejected loan applications of minority applicants while approving loan applications filed by white applicants with similar financial characteristics and credit histories. Plaintiffs sought injunctive relief, actual damages, and punitive damages.

U.S. District Court Judge Ruben Castillo certified the Plaintiffs’ suit as a class action on June 30, 1995. Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Fed. Sav. Bank, 162 F.R.D. 322 (N.D. Ill. 1995).

Also on June 30, Judge Castillo granted Plaintiffs’ motion to compel discovery of a sample of Defendant-bank’s loan application files. Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Fed. Sav. Bank, 162 F.R.D. 338 (N.D. Ill. 1995).

The parties voluntarily dismissed the case on May 12, 1998, pursuant to a settlement agreement.

Plaintiff’s Lawyers Alexis, Hilary I. (Illinois) FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Childers, Michael Allen (Illinois) FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Clayton, Fay (Illinois) FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Cummings, Jeffrey Irvine (Illinois) FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Love, Sara Norris (Virginia) FH-IL-0011-9000

Miner, Judson Hirsch (Illinois) FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-9000

Obama, Barack H. (Illinois) FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000

 Wickert, John Henry (Illinois) FH-IL-0011-9000

athy

Lynn-
Thanks for this info!

JayD

Oh wow, IndieDogg, that is a great response. It is really nice to hang out here on NQ with people that have more than 3 brain cells. Thanks for that great letter to “Opie.”

I have been having problems as a Dem for McCain with family and friends. I live in a swing state, in a small town that is currently having orgasms over Obama, and naturally I want to puke every time I see O’s name stuck on houses, cars, shop windows, and along the roadways. This is worse than sleeping with the enemy; this is sleeping with the brain fried drugged. It’s invasion of the body snatchers. Really, it is erie living around so many bizarre thinkers.

My partner and I went to a Republican campaign office in town, a very lonely place here in this heavily democratic county, looking for a bit of humanity, looking for someone with a sane thought in their head regarding this election. I felt like the first time I went to see a dentist as a child: a bit scared and out of place but excited, too, because my pain was about to be relieved.

The office manager was a Godsend and a delight to have met. He asked us why we were not voting for O. We both sighed heavily and then began unloading our numerous reasons why O is a very bad choice for the White House. It was liberating just to purge our angst and feel as if we had found water in the desert right there in that Republican campaign office. We drank, we rested, we renewed. By the time we left we felt so much stronger in this land of O.

We are now quite confident that we will not get sucked into oblivion by the madness surrounding us. We now speak to family and friends with authority regarding who we are and what we believe in. We are learning how to love differently. If nothing else this election season has set us free from the robotic thinking that to be a real Democrat is to vote for Obama simply because he is the only Dem choice.

I told my partner that if we cannot get those nagging voices out of our heads that say we are abandoning our party, that we are going against the majority of this county, that we are turning against family and friends, there’s no way we will ever be able to stand up to voices outside of our heads. We will become lemmings diving off a cliff into the abyss of the brain fried even though we know damn well that we do not think with the majority here.

So thank you for being here for us, too. It’s not so lonely anymore.

final2weeks

I see what you mean. When I ask others why they are voting the way they are they give a basicly single lined answer and cannot offer more. I usually tell them how I feel and they always look at me and say “I did not know this” and “why have I not heard this”.

That is a far as they go. I know I cannot tell them to much because they do not believe they could have not known this or that someone would hide this from the general public. Never thought this would happen hear.

We are indeed “psychological twins.”

NCgirl

Thank you for writing this article Larry. My sentiments exactly.

NCgirl

Oops, thank you too IndieDogg.

athy

Sorry Larry-
I posted this comment on the wrong thread.
It belongs here with this article you wrote.
P.S I missed IndieDoggs comment yesterday-thanks for reposting today. I agree-Indie explains the situation using ‘straight talk’.

Did anyone watch the Senate Banking and Finance Committee meeting this morning-I saw bits & pieces of it on C Span.

Dodd was talking about how happy he was that Banking and Finance Committee is looking into the financial crisis and its causes. He spent about 10 minutes talking about how Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were victims and how many in Congress (including himself and other Dems) knew that more regulation was necessary but the (privately -owned) Federal Reserve Screwed up and let private lenders rip off the consumer.

Of course I am paraphrasing above…but then Dodd stated how he was looking forward to what this bi-partisan ‘I N Q U I R Y” would expose about what caused this financial crisis and how to avoid it in future.

Hmmm…seems to me Dodd already told the committee what its conclusion should be- PROTECT THOSE IN CONGRESS WHO HELPED TO CAUSE THIS MESS.

I wondered why so many Democrats loyal to Sen Clinton tossed their support for her aside & ran with Sen Obama.

Just speculating here- but after what I saw on C Span this morning- I wouldnt be surprised to learn that Sen Obama may have offered these ‘legislators who blindly supported minimal or NO REGULATION over Mortgage Industry- IMMUNITY FROM POSSIBLE FUTURE INVESTIGATION OR PROSECUTION. (Heck…he supported the telecom companies with his FISA position so anything is up for grabs)

These guys are scared to death as to what can of worms Sen McCain may open up in this (or any) financial meltdown investigation.

Sen Dodd appears to be in a rush to close this investigation up pretty quick…why?

DOES ANYONE HAVE A LINK TO THIS HEARING THAT TOOK PLACE THIS MORNING AND WAS COVERED BY CSPAN?

Watch the first 10 minutes of the hearing…UNBELIEVABLE- Sen Dodd appears to be running scared.
Sassy

This is a really good exchange!
Yes, there is talent here.
Small business owners tend to be loyal to their employees, once they are well trained.
Additionally, these owners put in many hours each week. There is a great amount of work that is done after the “closed” sign goes on the door.
With all the diversifications in the workplace today, the small companies are providing the majority of jobs!
They are the first to feel the rising energy and transportation costs as well!
Many of them absorb those initially, but then have to pass them on, thus losing business.
calli not your sweeti

Joe the Plumber and a lot of other hard working Americans just found out that they are really Republicans! Democrats (Pelosi and Reid) are asking for another 300 Billion of our hard earned dollars so they can pay ACORN and all of their other cronies, and themselves, so they don’t have to live like the oppressed people they claim to be championing! Vote them out while there is still a chance that your vote actually counts!
countryfirst_obamanever

116,000 of these “small businesses” are owned by women and they are about to be screwed by the guy who talks about equal pay and doesn’t live by. Who says he believes in the American Dream, but thinks that dream is about robbing some people blind and giving it away to others who haven’t worked for it.

That’s not the American Dream…that’s Highway Robbery with a government gun.
AnninCA

The true results are starting to come in at RCP.

http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2008/10/politicoinsider_advantage_obam.html

*HEH
final2weeks

I know this is a little long but I think this is very important to show serious flaws in Obama’s health care plans or why implementing them will cause a dangerous cascading effect. This is also the first post I have ever posted anywhere. I feel this is that important.

After talking last weekend with those in the know, I feel we have a very serious concern that there will without any doubt, be a mass retirement of physicians if Obama is elected. Between what they feel is his bad health care plan, his over the top tax increases and without any kind of doubt, his release of lawyers on them, thereby skyrocketing their malpractice insurance which all doctors have to pay.

Let me make this clear. We are already experiencing a critical shortage of surgeons and internal medicine doctors.

Their stress is increasing, if they are attached to a hospital they are required to take all surgery patients and patients that come from rural hospitals which have no surgeons and in many of these cases, they have multiple complications and in most cases no insurance. I know many of these same doctors end up writing off large amounts each month while still being responsible for their employees, equipment, families and medical school debt. They are controlled at what they can charge by insurance companies and their reimbursements are less and less each year. Many of these doctors also work every weekend because of the shortage putting in 80 plus hours a week not counting time they spend being on call.

No one would in their right mind go into medicine knowing that they will come out of eight plus years of medical school with insurmountable debt, high risk of liability, and enter a field with so much stress. They deserve better and to get the best and brightest in these important fields, things must change. Not with the kind of change Obama wants.

I am a 50 something lifelong Democrat. I am now voting for the first time in my life for a republican. I am totally comfortable with this decision. I believe in John McCain. With the issues surrounding Obama’s associations, ACORN, Ayres, Rezko, Wright, Odinga, and all the others under the bus helped to make my decision. These are not the types of associations that I would want to have with a leader of a country that is supposed to be a beacon of free speech. All I hear are platitudes and strains that would plunge us into an abyss that has been seen before in history.

Go Sarah Palin, you make us proud. Go get em’ John McCain, no holding back now.

JayD

Hey, final2weeks, we seem to be psychological twins. I am 50-something, too, and a first time Republican voter for all the same reasons that you are, and then some. I think that there are a lot more of us out there who simply do not talk about this cross-party voting decision but will act accordingly when in the privacy of the voting booth.

Between family and friends, I have pretty much stopped talking about what I am doing because too many of them are in lock-step with Obama obediance. I can only hope that they do what their hearts tell them to do rather than what the Democratic Party dictates. They have no idea how free they will feel once they choose to think rationally and for themselves.

I trust McCain which is far more than I can say for Obama. With me it really comes down to a simple matter of trust.

Chris G.

Taxing the top 5% (wealth redistribution), Taxing the top 5% ( who pay the bulk of taxes already) will only lead to flight of capitol to countries that have seen the failure of wealth redistribution, and have learned a valuable lesson from them.

Who will pay Barck’s precious taxes then? Who will create employment? Who will regrow the economy? Barack Obama? He’s never worked on honest job in his life. Or maybe Bill Ayers? Barney Frank? Chris Dodd? Franklin Raines? Nancy Pelosi? Tony Rezko? Or maybe Acorn? Yeah, all of these colorful parasites will save the U.S. economy.

Democrats seem to think they live in a bubble. Or maybe they would like to build a Berlinesque type wall around the country. There are countries around the world lining up right now to lure American business to invest with them.
ConcernedCitizenX

Unbelievable. Only a complete idiot would not see that Obama’s economic policies would definitely precipitate a new Great Depression and put the economy in the tank for many, many years. We have to ask ourselves, are these people reall that stupid? I don’t think so. I think Obama’s people are well aware of what their policies will do. The hard question we need to as is this: WHY DO THEY WANT TO DO IT? What do they stand to gain from destroying the US Economy? People we need to wake up. This isn’t fringe conspiracy theory. It’s about to happen before our eyes. Someone (or an agenda) will benefit if the economy tanks. We need to figure this all out.

Mary

Historically, McCain is right.

Herbert Hoover made the mistake of raising taxes during a recession, and it resulted in the Great Depression.

Capital will exit America, and be invested overseas, resulting in more job losses here.

“Refundable” tax credits mean that people who don’t even pay taxes, will receive a check from the IRS.

It’s foolishness.

ConcernedCitizenX

Unbelievable. Only a complete idiot would not see that Obama’s economic policies would definitely precipitate a new Great Depression and put the economy in the tank for many, many years. We have to ask ourselves, are these people really that stupid? I don’t think so. I think Obama’s people are well aware of what their policies will do. The hard question we need to ask is this: WHY DO THEY WANT TO DO IT? What do they stand to gain from destroying the US Economy? People we need to wake up. This isn’t fringe conspiracy theory. It’s about to happen before our eyes. Someone (or an agenda) will benefit if the economy tanks. We need to figure this all out.

NoBamaNoWay

you are correct- obama would be a disaster for the economy; but please, let’s not pretend Ronnie Reagan’s “trickle down” economic theory works. I for one, would gladly go back to Clintonomics.

DancingOpossum

The top 5% do not pay the bulk of taxes. That’s a rightwing fallacy.

It’s true that ON PAPER they pay more of their income in taxes. But in reality, two things: One, the actual share of taxes out of income is, by proportion, much smaller than that paid by middle- or lower- income people, and leaves a much larger share of discretionary income. Two, most wealthy people and corporations benefit from enormous tax deductions and tax hedges that allow them to shelter even more of their wealth.

And many people are not aware that the majority of millionaires in the U.S. did not earn their money–they inherited it. That’s not “working hard” for their money, that’s being lucky enough to born into the right family.

This idea that increasing taxes on them will cause all this “capital flight” is what fueled the trickle-down economic theories of Reagan and Dubya. How is that working out? The first one brought us all the joys of the S&L debacle and rampant unemployment. The second, well, we see where that’s brought us.

WHO, exactly, ruined the U.S. economy?

As to WHY they want to do it, it’s simple–look at who owns them, Democrat and Republican alike. The same banks they are bailing out.

JozefAL

Yeah, the actual share of taxes is unfairly paid by lower and middle classes. While income taxes are paid on a scale rate, most AVERAGE people also have to pay other taxes–mainly SALES taxes. Sales taxes (whether on food or a new TV set) are paid on the “flat tax” method–a single rate paid on ALL sales. Whether your purchase is $10 or $1000, the sales tax rate will be the same. (I will note that states do make a number of exemptions on a wide range of items. Alabama, for instance, taxes sales of infant formula, but feed for baby chickens is tax-exempt. I imagine that Alabama is like other states in offering no sales tax or a reduced tax rates for some businesses that have filed certain business licenses–restaurants, for instance, are generally exempt from paying sales tax on food products that will be used at the restaurant.)
The sales tax is effectively a “flat tax”, the type of which many bigwig conservatives love to propose as a replacement for the income tax. (The only difference is that the flat-rate income tax will supposedly only begin at a certain income level and will depend on the taxpayer’s exact circumstances. Of course, the current tax system does much the same; it’s only after a person’s net income reaches a minimum threshhold that he’s responsible for paying taxes–if his income is below that level, any money he’s paid into the system is refunded.)
CommenSenseIsInShortSupply

Possum,

Your ignorance is astounding. You can look up the percentages on the IRS website yourself, but it is FACT (not fallacy as you wish were the case) that the top 5% of earners pay over 60% of the total taxes paid. The top 10% pay over 70% and the top 25% pay over 85% (source: http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html ) so please peddle your “on paper” crap elsewhere.

Of course, they have more discretionary income, you twit, they HAVE MORE MONEY, but their proportion of income to taxes is clearly NOT “much smaller than that paid by middle- or lower-income people”. You can borrow my calculator if you need help figuring this out. In fact, the bottom 50% of income earners pay a whopping 2.9% in income taxes (same source as above).

Also, I would love to see your link to any proof that the majority of millionaires inherited their money. In fact, a recent PNC Wealth Management survey revealed that only 6% of millionaires received their money from inheritance alone–a full 69% got that way by working.

I know, I know…that pesky facts. They always get in the way of the warped liberal, envy-based mind.

JGalt

Thanks! I needed that.

Sometimes you get so tired of trying to feed a few facts to the people who are so unused to researching that their opinions are the only facts that matter to them and should matter to everyone else. Superb response.
Andrew191

Opossum sounds like he is on the far left. Strange, most of the opossum I see are in the middle of the road. Anyway, I’m surprised that a flat marsupial isn’t advocating a flat tax.
NoBamaNoWay

actually, i think if you figure in *all* taxes, not just federal income tax, low wage earners do pay a higher proportion of their income in taxes. besides, do you think corporations actually pay taxes on everything there are legally supposed to? i remember that when dick cheney left as halliburton’s CEO, the US government was actually *paying them* a tax rebate every year. you have to take that tax rate with a grain of salt, because companies just make sure that none of their income is “taxable.”

Susan1968

If you live in a city like NY $250G before taxes is not a lot of money.

My friend lives in NYC and has his own business. He makes $250,000 gross per year. He’s married with 2 kids about to go to college.

He lives on Long Island and his property taxes are $8000 per year, his mortgage is $2300 per month. His car insurance is about $6000 per year. His home electric/heating bill — well, he pays among the highest rates in the country.

Food, gas, out of pocket health insurance. Even his monthly pass to ride the LIRR is like $400 per month ($5000 per year!) … and now college tuition for 2 kids.

He had to take out a home equity loan to replace all the old windows in his house to save on energy bills. He didn’t have $20,000 laying around to pay in cash.

Do the math. Families living on his income are not rolling in money. In fact, he said he had to break the news to his son that he will be getting a used car to drive at college. Not a new car like his son’s richer friends are getting.

I notice Obama was saying “quarter-million a year” to make $250G sound like more than it is.
JozefAL

Something that should have been pointed out to Oboe was that, yes, under FDR’s administration, the top tax rate was 95% for people making more than $200K, that was only PART of the whole picture.
1–The $200K figure was a DECREASE from a $5 MILLION top income bracket that had been in effect from 1936 to 1941 (when the top tax rates had ranged from 79-81%), and the “95%” (as best as I can tell, the figure only reached 94%–nitpicky difference, I know, but in the name of accuracy) only applied to 1944 and 1945, when we were STILL AT WAR WITH GERMANY AND JAPAN.
2–From 1925 to 1931, the top tax rate was a mere 25% (it even dropped to 24% in 1929) on as little as $100K; in 1924, the top rate had been 46% on $500K (that, in itself, had been a severe reduction from the Wilson Administration’s 1917 rate of 67% on $2 million and 1918 rate of 77% on $1 million, and postwar rate of 73% on $1 million).
3–In 1946, AFTER THE WAR’S END, the top rate dropped to 86.45% on income exceeding $200K, and by 1948, the rate had dropped to 82.13% on income in excess of $400K.
4–Not until 1951 (during the Korean War) did the rates go back up to 91% on $400K (with a 92% top rate during 1952 and 1953). Note that REPUBLICAN Dwight Eisenhower was President for the majority of the period with this top rate. JFK inherited Eisenhower’s top rate but LBJ (a Democratic President with a Democratic majority in BOTH houses of Congress) began the general decline in top rates and, in 1965, the top income bracket went back down to $200K, where it would stay until 1977 (even then, the top income category would go up to reflect inflation rates). Interestingly even under GOP President Nixon saw no decrease in the tax rate itself.
5–The ONLY thing that Nixon implemented was a change in the tax rates to bring down the rate on EARNED income. If you actually WORKED for your income, you were subject to a maximum 50% rate (60% in 1971, 50% from 1972) but if you DIDN’T work for your income (as in inheritance or relying on trust income or stock dividends, etc), you were still subject to the full maximum rate.
6–The Great Reagan tax cut actually imposed a lower income threshhold, it’s true. But, that simply meant that MORE people were now required to pay the maximum tax rate. In 1982, this meant 50% on as little as $85,600, and by 1986 50% on as little as $175,250. When the top rate dropped in 1987, it went down to 38.5% on AS LITTLE AS $90,000. This meant that someone earning $200K in 1986, they paid $100K in income tax; earning $200K in 1987 meant the same person paid only $77K a full 23% less. Incidentally, it made no difference whether you had actually worked hard for your income or you’d gotten it because of mummy and daddy’s hard work.
7–In 1988-1990, some lower income taxpayers faced a higher tax rate than significantly higher income taxpayers. While the effective top tax rate was “just” 28% on income levels from $29750 (in 1988) to $32450 (in 1990), some taxpayers were hit with an actual tax rate of 33% on incomes just slightly ABOVE these “top income levels”.
8–During the vast majority of the Clinton years (except for 1993 when the top income bracket was $89150), the top tax rate was the most consistently lowest rate since before the Great Depression. In the Clinton era, the top rate was 39.6%–the top income bracket started at $250K in 1994 and eventually climbed to $288,350 in 2000. (The top rate had been lower during the end of the Reagan Administration and into the Bush I Admin but had swung more than 10 percentage points during those 6 years.)
But, if in fact, Oboe is an Obot, facts don’t matter as all truth is relative. Maybe for Obama, there’s a type of Doppler effect for truth and the facts.
Andrew

Britt Hume is a jerk. I remember when he showed that fake-photo of Hillary with big breasts wearing that revealing shirt. It was disgusting and the panel just laughed their heads off. I’m not the biggest fan of Hillary but that was disgusting.

http://JohnMcCain.com Galt, Master Thrall of Planet Triskelion

The MSM are evil bastards working in concert with evil politicians and corporations. The whole lot are committing societal suicide just as every other “empire” has and always will.

ConcernedCitizenX

that is a really idiotic anarchistic statement

http://JohnMcCain.com Galt, Master Thrall of Planet Triskelion

Have you see the Roman empire lately? Evil crushes itself. If we don’t heed history’s warnings we are doomed to repeat it. I am not an anarchist nor am I encouraging anarchy. I want our society to survive. Your statement is unfair. I am only pointing out the path we are on. If anyone is an anarchist it is our leaders, albeit they may not be aware they are even doing it. They are destroying our chances of survival with their shortsightedness, selfishness and greed.

Mercedes

Even though I have already voted for McCain with an early ballot, the Republican Party’s economic policies and their warmongering neocons are what I appreciate least about the GOP. However, all that is trumped multiple times by the character and intentions of the candidates. You cannot believe one word that Obama says; Obama does not hold a candle to McCain; and McCain is no Bush or Cheney. So the choice was not that difficult.

I am not rich or greedy; I have what I need for now. But whoever is elected better make sure they don’t flush us all down the toilet and they better watch out for people in need and not create millions more. That is most likely to happen with a know-it-all President and there is only one of them running for the office this year.

Sally

Warmongering?….I guess you have no clue that Democrats got us into everywar of the 20th century!

Please! You must read “Liberal Fascism” by Jonah Goldberg, and you’ll understand just how brainwashed you and all Americans (including the Republicans) really are.

You will be freaked out to see how you’ve been played (in school, at work and liesure. The 120-year fascist “progressive” plan has finally culminated in Obama–the biggest radical to ever run…beating even Wilson in terms of his fascist tendencies.

READ IT AND WEEP…EVERYONE…NOW! IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE. I PROMISE.

http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224193942&sr=8-1

Mercedes

I give no credence to Jonah Goldberg; I consider him a propagandist for the “warmongering neocons”. I don’t think those creatures existed before the late ’90s.

http://mybluecountry.googlepages.com/whattheobamademocratsaresayingposter Linda

roflmao indie dogg, thank you for you insight, effort and witt.
Andrew

WOW, look at the Gallup likely voter numbers.

MCCAIN – 46%
OBAMA – 49%
LIsabona

Obamas plan is pure socialist. His redistribuition plan, is the slogan of a Communist system, which is a short distance to reach Obamas long time dream and his life long ” friends” dream the COMMUNISM. This system, will destroy, you as a human being, you will became a ” robot”, waiting for the Government to think for you, decide your entire existence, only thing you have to elogiate and say ” BLESS THE CHOOSEN”, our saviour, our thinker. Like the Chinese people, they considered “MAO” as their God. Weak-up, before is too late, otherwise you will ” enjoy” the bitter taste and the real,sad ‘ OBAMBOLSHEVIKS”.

Andrew191

Your assessment is correct. Everyone needs to read “Das Kapital” to fully understand where we’re heading. I know it is a painfully long and boring read (I only read it because it was assigned) but being armed with knowlege is the best way to hold your own in any debate. I suppose you could take a shortcut though and read the Cliff Notes,…………Obama’s economic plan!
NoBamaNoWay

you are correct- obama would be a disaster for the economy; but please, let’s not pretend Ronnie Reagan’s “trickle down” economic theory works. I for one, would gladly go back to Clintonomics.

johnqpublic

obama/biden = trickle up poverty

Mollye

Bravo, Indie Dogg. That was fantastic. You really need to send this, or something like it, to every commentator and post on every blog.
What a way with words.

(Mollye, formerly known as LookingForwardTo2012)
http://lesstalkmoreactivism.blogspot.com/ whoframedrudy

“Right, he graduated law school; nobody said he didn’t have a brain. That’s theory and regurgitation. I did it, too. No big deal.”

Considering how smart he is, he has accomplished surprisingly little.

And what has he ever done for blacks? Before he was Obama’s age, Rev. Al Sharpton had led blacks in New York through a crisis after two shootings of innocent unarmed blacks by police. Sharpton is the reason there were no ‘L.A. Riots’ in New York. (And no Tianamen-style massacre by Giuliani.) Sharpton channeled that rage into tightly organized, massive citywide non-violent protests, and had the balls to confront the extremely powerful NYPD at a time of extreme tension and crisis.

I’m not talking about Sharpton’s politics. I’m talking about the balls, out-front leadership, and effective, high-level engagement we should see in a candidate before they run for President. Like Hillary at age 35 beating President Reagan in a cage match over legal services for the poor. Or Nixon on HUAC. Aside from the politics they represent, you see proof before they run for President that they have the balls, the inbred firepower to lead a superpower.

In Obama, I see nothing of the kind. Obama is just a flunky who enjoys getting his ass wiped clean and shiny by BSNBC and the NY Times.

Mr. Natural

I’m not talking about Sharpton’s politics. I’m talking about the balls, out-front leadership, and effective, high-level engagement we should see in a candidate before they run for President.

I’ve said the same thing myself.

“More Mirrors, more mirrors, my kingdom for more mirrors…” from The Apocrypha of Saint Obama, edited, massively edited, by Fra David Axelrod.

NoBamaNoWay

i must disagree with the second part of the OP which takes a basically republican view of the economy. firstly, though, i absolutely do not trust obama with economy- socialism does not work. end of story. however, neither does the republican, social darwinism theory. WORKERS in this country should be paid a fair wage; this has nothing to do with welfare or redistribution of wealth. in fact, the redistribution of wealth in this country has been going on for a long time- from the people at the bottom who generate the wealth to the people at the top who accumulate it.

the OP mentions GDP growth due to increased productivity; this is correct – productivity is up (all time high, i think), but the WORKERS do not receive any increase in their pay. corporate profits have continued to rise while worker pay is stagnant or even decreasing relative to inflation.

The OP also mentions the belief that “businesses create jobs.” this is partially true, but there is another side of it – “customers with money to spend create jobs.” i work in the restaurant business, and i can tell you that it doesn’t matter what kind of tax breaks my boss or the CEO get, if there are no customers, they are not going to be hiring more people or opening any new stores.

the health of the american economy depends on a prosperous middle class with discretionary income to spend. you don’t have that when most jobs in america barely pay a living wage. and did i mention that corporate profits have continued to rise over the last few decades while worker pay has been stagnant? do the math on that. something must be done about this.

no one (here, anyway) is talking about expanding the welfare state or any such thing, but american citizens should not be working 40+ hours/week and still be living in virtual poverty, while the company management is giving itself multi-million dollar bonuses.
johnqpublic

this is now an election between the workers and the people who leech off society.

Mary

Senator Government vs. Joe the Plumber.
Mr. Natural

…and the people who leech off society.

- and their lobbyists, the United States Congress.

Sherri

Found this on Greta & its a good question

ASSIGNMENT FOR YOU!
by Greta Van Susteren
Read this…

1. The Secretary of State of Ohio Jennifer Brunner filed a request in the Supreme Court relating to the underlying claim in her state that there has been voter registration fraud…with ties to the work of ACORN in registering voters.

2. A group — the Service Employees International Union [SEIU] — filed an amicus brief in the United States Supreme Court asking the Supreme Court to rule with the Secretary of State of Ohio (and essentially asking for a ruling that would be favorable to ACORN in that it would “call off the dogs.”)

3. I thought it curious that SEIU would file an amicus brief for Brunner and did some quick research …and now I need more indepth research (which is where YOU come in.) According to my quick research..the same person who started ACORN, started SIEU. His name is Wade Rathke. So then I wondered, who is Wade Rathke?

4. I did some really quick research and learned that Rathke was a member of the anti war group SDS. This is where YOU come in again. If you know 60’s history, you know that the Weather Underground was an offshoot of SDS. There was some disagreement in the late 60’s and members of the SDS – Bill Ayers and his wife – left and formed/ joined the Weather Underground.

So now I am wondering: do Rathke and Ayers know each other (from SDS / Weather Underground days)? what is the connection now, if any, between them? between ACORN and SEIU? between them and Senator Obama?

There may be absolutely NO connection…but we should at least take a look at it. If there is none, we should make that known. Senator Obama should not have to fight the viral nature of rumors. If there is a connection or relation, it might be of some further interest that is worth more investigation. And it may turn out, if there is a connection, that the connection is of no moment…but we should at least see what the facts are and then reach our individual conclusions.

So there is your assigment….get looking!!
POdVet

As NoBamaNoWay said above, I believe one of the biggest problems is the runaway overcompensation of the corporate elite. It was exactly that which led to the mortgage meltdown as CEO’s of Freddie, Fannie, etc. etc. cooked the books to give themselves huge bonuses. I don’t care who you are or what job you do, NO ONE deserves a $20,000,000 annual salary with a $40,000,000 bonus! At the same time, some of the unions need to be reigned in a bit. Too many now put clauses in where in order for the company to hire you, you must be recommended by 2 current employees. This is leading to MANY instances where highly qualified individuals with degree’s and experience, are not being hired in favor of the just graduated from high school kid who happens to have a parent and Aunt/Uncle already working there recommend him. Job hiring should be based on qualifications not relatives.

Now I’ll say this as someone who supposedly would benefit from the policies Obama claims to want to enact. If you are poor and vote for Obama because you believe his BS! You deserve exactly what you would get under an Obama Presidency. And if you want to know what that is, ask the people who lived in his district when he was in the Illinois State Senate. They got SHIT ON while he set up laws for his good buddy Rezko to defraud the people he was supposed to be serving. I would much rather continue living in my trailer, than live in the multi million dollar housing Rezko built for the poor that left them freezing in the winter then falling down around their heads a short time later.

Mr. Natural

I don’t care who you are or what job you do, NO ONE deserves a $20,000,000 annual salary with a $40,000,000 bonus!

Y’er right! It’s chump change.

Which is why the New York Stock Exchange gave their departing chairman $140 million. And Exxon? Man oh Man… Exxon’s chairman took home almost half a billion dollars as a going away present.