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Unwise Brinkmanship In Iran

Veterans Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

(cross posted at TomPaine.com)

The following memorandum by the steering group of the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity is signed by Ray Close, Princeton, N.J.; Larry Johnson, Bethesda, Md.; David MacMichael, Linden, Va.; Ray McGovern, Arlington, Va.; and Coleen Rowley, Apple Valley, Minn.

The frenzy in America’s corporate media over Iran’s detainment of 15 British Marines who may, or may not, have violated Iranian-claimed territorial waters is a flashback to the unrestrained support given the administration’s war-mongering against Iraq shortly before the attack.

The British are refusing to concede the possibility that its Marines may have crossed into ill-charted, Iranian-claimed waters and are ratcheting up the confrontation.  At this point, the relative merits of the British and Iranian versions of what actually happened are greatly less important than how hotheads on each side—and particularly the British—decide to exploit the event in the coming days.

There is real danger that this incident, and the way it plays out, may turn out to be outgoing British Prime Minister Tony Blair’s last gesture of fealty to President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and “neo-conservative” advisers who, this time, are looking for a casus belli to “justify” air and missile strikes on Iran.  Bush and Cheney no doubt find encouragement in the fact that the Democrats last week refused to include in the current House bill on Iraq war funding proposed language forbidding the White House from launching war on Iran without explicit congressional approval.

If the Senate omits similar language today, or if the prohibition disappears in conference, chances increase for a “pre-emptive” U.S. and/or Israeli strike on Iran and a major war that will make the one in Iraq seem like a minor skirmish.  The impression, cultivated by the White House and our domesticated media, that Saudi Arabia and other Sunni-majority states might favor a military strike on Iran is a myth.  But the implications go far beyond the Middle East.  With the Russians and Chinese, the U.S. has long since forfeited the ability, exploited with considerable agility in the 1970s and 1980s, to play one off against the other.  In fact, U.S. policies have helped drive the two giants together.  They know well that it’s about oil and strategic positioning and will not stand idly by if Washington strikes Iran.

Perfidious Albion /Tamed Poodle

Intelligence analysts place great store in a sources’ record for reliability and the historical record.  We would be forced to classify Tony Blair as a known prevaricator who, for reasons still not entirely clear, has a five-year record of acting as man’s best friend for Bush.  If the president needs a casus belli, Blair will probably fetch it.

Is there, then, any British statesman well versed in both the Middle East and maritime matters, who is worthy of trust?  There is.  Craig Murray is former UK Ambassador to Uzbekistan (until he was cashiered for openly objecting to United Kingdom and U.S. support for torture there) and also former head of the maritime section of the British Foreign Office, and has considerable experience negotiating disputes over borders extending into the sea.

In recent days, former ambassador Murray has performed true to character in courageously speaking out, taking public issue with the British government’s position on the incident at hand.  He was quick to quote, for example, the judiciously balanced words of Commodore Nick Lambert, the Royal Navy commander of the operation on which the Marines were captured:

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they were in Iraqi territorial waters.  Equally, the Iranians may well claim that they were in their territorial waters.  The extent and definition of territorial waters in this part of the world is very complicated.

Compare the commodore’s caution with the infallible certainty with which Blair has professed to be “utterly confident” that the Marines were in Iraqi waters, and you get an idea of what may be Blair’s ultimate purpose.

Writing in his widely read blog , Murray points to a "colossal problem” with respect to the map the British government has used to show coordinates of the incident and the Iran/Iraq maritime border—the story uncritically accepted by stenographers of the mainstream press.  Murray writes:

The Iran/Iraq maritime boundary shown on the British government map does not exist.  It has been drawn up by the British Government.  Only Iraq and Iran can agree on their bilateral boundary, and they have never done this in the Gulf, only inside the Shatt because there it is the land border too.  This published boundary is a fake with no legal force…Anyway, the UK was plainly wrong to be ultra-provocative in dispute waters…

They [the British Marines] would under international law have been allowed to enter Iranian territorial waters if in “hot pursuit” of terrorists, slavers, or pirates….But they were looking for smuggled vehicles attempting to evade car duty.  What has the evasion of Iranian or Iraqi taxes got to do with the Royal Navy?”

Ambassador Murray has appealed to reason and cooler heads.  To state what should be the obvious, he notes it is not legitimate for the British government to draw a boundary without agreement of the countries involved.  He notes:

A little more humility, and an acknowledgement that this is a boundary subject to dispute, might actually get our people home.  The question is, are we really aiming to get our people home, or to maximize propaganda from the incident?

Casus Belli?

What is known at this point regarding the circumstances suggests Royal Navy misfeasance rather than deliberate provocation.  The way the UK and U.S. media has been stoked, however, suggests that both London and Washington may decide to represent the intransigence of Iranian hotheads as a casus belli for the long prepared air strikes on Iran.  And not to be ruled out is the possibility that we are dealing with a provocation ab initio .  Intelligence analysts look to precedent, and what seems entirely relevant in this connection is the discussion between Bush and Blair on Jan. 31, 2003, six weeks before the attack on Iraq.

The “White House Memo” (like the famous “Downing Street Memo” leaked earlier to the British press) shows George Bush broaching to Blair various options to provoke war with Iraq.  The British minutes (the authenticity of which is not disputed by the British government) of the Jan. 31, 2003 meeting stated the first option as: “The U.S. was thinking of flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colours.  If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach.”

Not to mention the (in)famous Tonkin Gulf non-incident, used by President Lyndon Johnson as the “provocation” to justify bombing North Vietnam.

Saving Face

The increasingly heavy investment of "face" in the UK Marine capture situation is unquestionably adding to the danger of an inadvertent outbreak of open hostilities. One side or the other is going to be forced to surrender some of its pride if a more deadly confrontation is going to be averted.   And there is no indication that the Bush administration is doing anything other than encouraging British recalcitrance.

Unless one’s basic intention is to provoke a hostile action to which the U.S. and UK could “retaliate,” then getting involved in a tit-for-tat contest with the Iranians is a foolish and reckless game, for it will probably not be possible to avoid escalation and loss of control.  And we seem to be well on our way there.  If one calls Iran "evil,” arrests its diplomats, accuses it of promoting terrorism and unlawful capture, one can be certain that the Iranians will retaliate and raise the stakes in the process.

That is how the game of tit-for-tat is played in that part of the world.   What British and American officials seem not to be taking into account is that the Iranians are the neighborhood toughs.  In that neighborhood, they control the conditions under which the game will be played.  They can change the rules freely any time they want; the UK cannot, and neither can Washington.  Provocative behavior, then, can be very dangerous, unless you mean to pick a fight you may well regret.

Someone should recount to Tony Blair and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei the maxim quoted by United Nations former chief weapons inspector Hans Blix just last week: "The noble art of losing face/Will someday save the human race."

  • John Howley

    USS Nimitz Scheduled To Depart For Persian Gulf
    Ship To Join Another Local Aircraft Carrier

    POSTED: 12:05 pm PDT March 28, 2007
    UPDATED: 12:22 pm PDT March 28, 2007

    SAN DIEGO — The USS Nimitz and its support ships will depart San Diego on Monday for the Persian Gulf to join another local aircraft carrier strike group already in the region, military officials said.

    The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier will join the San Diego-based John C. Stennis Strike Group and relieve the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, according to Naval Air Forces Public Affairs.

    Military officials said in a statement that the two-carrier presence in the Persian Gulf area is intended to demonstrate the country’s “resolve to build regional security and bring long-term stability to the region.”
    Click here to find out more!

    The Nimitz’s departure comes amid heightened tensions in the region following the detention of 15 British sailors and marines by Iran last week. Iran maintains the detainees were operating in its territorial waters, a charge the British government strongly denies.

    While deployed, the crew of the Nimitz will support the war on terrorism, patrol the Horn of Africa and conduct marine security operations as part of the larger effort to “deter and dissuade others from acting counter to U.S. national interests,” according to a Navy statement.

    The Nimitz Strike Group is comprised of the guided-missile cruiser Princeton, guided-missile destroyers Higgins, Chafee, John Paul Jones and Pinckney, two helicopter squadrons and an explosive ordnance disposal unit.

    The Stennis, and its strike group, left Naval Base Coronado on Jan. 20. The aircraft carrier entered the Persian Gulf Wednesday, according to authorities. It is the largest carrier presence in the area since the start of the war in Iraq.

    http://www.10news.com/news/11422067/detail.html

  • http://eminent-truth.blogspot.com/ toby

    “What is known at this point regarding the circumstances suggests Royal Navy misfeasance rather than deliberate provocation.”

    What could possibly suggest the Royal Navy has done anything improper or unlawful in the Gulf? There’s been no credible evidence the Royal Navy did anything wrong.

    Your whole cassus belli argument is totally off base. The hostage situation alone will not be used as a justification for war…look at how the Brits and USG have treated the incident–as CALMLY as possible. Very little sabre rattling. This is merely the latest in a string of incidents that leads us closer to war but it’s not something either country is willing to fight over.

    “If one calls Iran “evil,” arrests its diplomats, accuses it of promoting terrorism and unlawful capture, one can be certain that the Iranians will retaliate and raise the stakes in the process.”

    Aside from the evil comments–should the US avoid criticizing the country for fear of angering them when the comments are totally valid? The Iranians DO support terrorism. Their “diplomats” weren’t diplomats. They were definitely Revolutionary Guard members without official diplomatic protection and probably working to kill US soldiers by aiding Shia militias. At what point can you criticize another country?

    “What British and American officials seem not to be taking into account is that the Iranians are the neighborhood toughs. In that neighborhood, they control the conditions under which the game will be played.”

    First – Iran is not the lone neighborhood tough–the US is. Yes, they’re influential, but even the Saudis are more so politically, economically, and thanks to US support–militarily. As such, the Iranians can’t dictate the rules of the game to the US. We have a better shot at “dictating” rules in their neighborhood. One reason we can do this so effectively is because our sea-power allows us to control their exports and restrict their gasoline imports. Did I mention we’re the only world superpower?

    Finally, as for your Hans Blix quote–it’s no surprise that came from him. UN bureaucrats have the luxury of considering what’s best for the world [big sigh, isn't that cute?]. Now back to reality, where the interests of my country are more important than the interests of your country and where my country must be willing to defend itself. But hey, the US probably should have just lost face and given into the Nazis, the Soviets, and now Islamic extremists. If only we’d done that, the world would be much better off.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/CCK Sometime-CIA-Defender

    Off-Topic:

    Feinstein Resigns from MilCon

    http://www.metroactive.com/metro/03.21.07/dianne-feinstein-resigns-0712.html

    “SEN. Dianne Feinstein has resigned from the Military Construction Appropriations subcommittee. As previously and extensively reviewed in these pages, Feinstein was chairperson and ranking member of MILCON for six years, during which time she had a conflict of interest due to her husband Richard C. Blum’s ownership of two major defense contractors, who were awarded billions of dollars for military construction projects approved by Feinstein.”

    More at the link. Does this show that Dems have more balls when it comes to going after their own? Probably more to do with the National Institute funding the MetroActive investigation, but surely they aren’t just targeting Democrats? :p

  • graywolf

    When the Iranians seized the US Embassy in Tehran in 1979, what were the positions of you people?

    Did you support the useless, feckless, weak Carter administration?

    In other words, egregious ignoring of the Vienna conventions, and international common courtesy, is OK for anyone who does it to the West, BUT not vice-versa.

    The only reason this is a crisis is that the Brits failed to defend themselves.

    They should paint their “war” ships pink.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/CCK Sometime-CIA-Defender

    Well, we now know that Carter did try on numerous occasions to get them out, but had about the rottenest run of luck imaginable.

    Also, we know that some Good Old People paid the Iranians to release them in order to make it look like the incoming president was tough. Do you support trading weapons for the Brits’ release?

  • Donovan Fraser

    It amazes me how we have no ability to think of any other perspective , other than our own. Reverse our positions for once. Imagine this, Iran has war ships sitting off our coast with ballistic missiles aimed at our largest city of millions and a nut case for a president threatening us with a military strike if we don’t comply with their demands. you know what we would do????we’d blow there shit out of the water before they got within a 250 miles of our coast.
    really people… are we gonna start a war with Iran over a few lost soldiers as Israel did to their embarrassment in Lebanon? if so we really deserve the Dumb fuck award.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/CCK Sometime-CIA-Defender

    In case it’s unclear, my previous comment was directed at Mr. Graywolf.

  • http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/3/28/163434/301 RussGirl

    Corporate media is FREAKING – because the Middle East is REBELLING against these insane Neo-Con policies. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/3/28/163434/301

    No friends left.
    TIME FOR PEACE.
    TIME TO IMPEACH.

    Media, cough, if you can call it that, didn’t print much about everyone bailing on us. Condi was sent packing with no peace accord under her belt.

    NOONE TRUSTS US ANYMORE – What is Amerika doing to ourselves – our World?

    “By their actions, ye shall know them”.

    TIME FOR CHANGE!

  • ssbn04

    Even if the RN was in error regarding the two crafts’ position and Iran’s territorial borders were violated, the Law of the Sea Convention (LOSC) is clear:

    1. A warship enjoys sovereign immunity from the interference of authorities of states other than its own flag state. A warship cannot be required to consent to an on board search or inspection, nor may it be required to fly the flag of the host nation. (LOSC Arts. 32, 58(2), 95, 236).

    2. Although warships are required to comply with coastal State traffic control, sewage, health, and quarantine restrictions, a failure to comply is subject only to diplomatic protest or an order to leave the territorial sea or internal waters immediately. (LOSC, Art. 30).

    3. Warships are immune from arrest and seizure, are exempt from foreign taxes and regulation, and have exclusive control over all passengers and crew with regard to acts performed on board. (LOSC, Art. 32).

    If the rigid raiders were not considered warships, but merely auxiliary vessels, by Iran the LOSC establishes:

    Auxiliaries are vessels, other than warships, that are owned by or under the exclusive control of the armed forces. Because they are state owned or operated and used for the time being only on government noncommercial service, auxiliaries enjoy sovereign immunity, the same as warships.

    Iran’s only legitimate, legal, response to an RN incursion into its waters would be to demand the immediate removal of the offending vessels.

    There is also the matter of Iran’s violation of the Geneva Convention articles regarding the treatment of prisoners. Do you honestly believe that a 26-year old RN LS would have written such a letter or made video-taped comments of her own volition?

    I normally agree with the positions you take, Larry. In this matter, however, you are sorely mistaken.

    SSBN04
    Lt. Cmdr. R.N. (Rtd.)

  • Doran Williams

    It is my impression, from various sources I’ve read, that Iran is heavily armed, with some fantastically fast torpedoes, most likely some missles that could sink a carrier, and submarines, some of which may be even now positioned quietly on the bottom of the Persian Sea or Gulf. Surely the US Navy knows this, and probably anticipates losing one or more ships if a war starts.

    Would Bush start a war anyway? My guess is: Probably.

    As for the UK marines, the US and the UK have set an international precedent which Iran could follow. Designate the marines “unlawful combatants” not entitled to protection of the Geneva accords (there is no state of war between Iran and the UK), hold them indefinitely, and torture them till they confess.

    Thank you, President Bush, PM Blair, and AG Gonzalez.
    You fucking idiots.

  • Delia

    “There is also the matter of Iran’s violation of the Geneva Convention articles regarding the treatment of prisoners. Do you honestly believe that a 26-year old RN LS would have written such a letter or made video-taped comments of her own volition?”

    Now is when it would be really nice to be part of an alliance of nations that hadn’t trashed the Geneva Conventions, wouldn’t it? Or to belong to a nation that hadn’t abducted diplomats of the offending nation. Karma’s a bitch.

    Our army’s already broken. And I just saw a BBC report yesterday that the US has slipped to seventh in the world in technological innovation (behind various European nations and Singapore.) These delusional neocons may well force one more illegal war on us, sort of like Napoleon deciding to invade Russia. It’s certain to cause untold suffering in the Middle East, but it will also ensure the end of us, at least as a major power. We’re closer to the edge than most people realize.

  • Larry Johnson

    Lt. Cmdr.
    Heavens no. I agree with you that Iran is flagrantly violating the Geneva convention. And, as we acknowledge, they may be at fault. However, our conduct at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo has deprived us of the moral high ground on this issue right now, which is very unfortunate. I don’t believe our only option now is going to war with Iran.

    That said, I genuinely appreciate your thoughtful comment. You help educate folks.
    Best
    LJ

  • http://profile.typekey.com/MaxPrejean/ MEP

    SSBN04
    How very good of you to share your obvious understanding of the laws of the high seas and the Geneva Convention. Now would you please share your information and wisdom with the Bush White House. I think it was Alberto who referred to the Geneva Convention as “Quaint”. The timing of this whole affair stinks. As I have stated here before, I no longer believe in the Easter Bunny, the obvious, coincidence, and anything coming from the mouths of Bush/Blair and Company.

  • ssbn04

    Iran, or at least the hard-line militants that hold sway over its affairs, wants this escalation; they are emboldened by the(British and American) poor showing these last five years. If the 15 matelots and marines did not lend themselves as the trigger point, Iran would have found something similar with which to poke us – any cause would suffice. After all, WW1 (the war to end all wars) was not really caused by the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

    SSBN04

  • http://profile.typekey.com/MaxPrejean/ MEP

    SSBN04
    I agree that elements within the power structure of Iran would like to stir it up. However you appear to be ignoring my drift. What do you call what the Bush Admin has been doing for quite sometime? I will not bore you with specifics because I feel sure you are more aware than most. And as far as trying to invoke the Geneva Convention you insult the intellect of most that post here. Besides shitting on the US Constitution, Bush and his gang have mocked damn near every international treaty I can think of. Your position reminds me of the 1970s era Oakland Raiders bitching about their QB getting roughed in a game against the Jets. They ignored that the action followed Ben Davidson punching Broadway Joe and breaking his jaw. As Larry pointed out the US/UK do not at this time hold any moral high ground.

  • ssbn04

    MEP,

    I have no confidence in the Blair/Bush partnership of silliness either, but I retain a confident optimism in the fundamental goodness of the Anglo-Saxon civilization. Unfortunately, Bush/Blair and company have made such a shambles of things that we have no option but to play this whole thing through to the bitter end.

    SSBN04

  • ssbn04

    MEP,

    I agree with your observations regarding the failures of the Bush White House, but as a guest here in the US, I do not feel that I have the right to criticize my host country’s government (this summer, my newly-minted US citizenry will change that. Were I to complain, however, I would take umbrage with Bush’s pernicious 800-plus signing statements).

    Regarding Blair? He is a traitorous sniveling lackey. Having served under Thatcher’s government, I have witnessed how leadership has the ability to instill forthrightness and correctness in a country’s military. Blair has no such capacity and rot has taken root.

    I am afraid that we must now replace our leaders, find our way back to a solid footing, and extract ourselves from this morass.

    SSBN04

  • http://profile.typekey.com/MaxPrejean/ MEP

    SSBN04
    I could not disagree more strongly. It is time to step forward and stop the madness. Would you agree that if major military actions are taken against Iran things could spin out of control? What will W’s buddy “Puttie” do? China? You rightly pointed out that elements within Iran are being timely with their boldness based on the observation that our response capabilities are reduced. Might others make the same observation and attempt to gain advantage? Sorry Bud, there are many more potential lives on the line in this one besides the “Warriors”. I find your attitude cavalier and it angers me greatly.

    “Bush/Blair and company have made such a shambles of things that we have no option but to play this whole thing through to the bitter end.”

    Howsabout we all grow some balls and say FUCK NO! It is time for “We the People” to take back this country from the madmen who are in control. I am including the military in “We the People”. And oh by the way you assume I am of Anglo- Saxon heritage. I find that indicative of many of the worlds problems. “What do you think of Anglo-Saxon civilization?” Reply “I think it would be a good idea”…. Gandi

  • http://profile.typekey.com/MaxPrejean/ MEP

    SSBN04

    Sorry Mate. I had not refreshed and missed your most recent post until after I posted my last. Yes “We the People” on both sides of the pond must find the abilities within our respective societies and not just throw these mad bastards out, but hold them accountable for the many souls no longer able to voice their objections. We must stop the madness.

  • http://profile.typekey.com/MaxPrejean/ MEP

    SSBN04

    After reading your last post I understand your caution. I figure I’ve long ago reserved myself a bunk in the Halliburton/KBR Hilton Gulag.

  • Sandy

    Why aren’t people taking aggressive action to stop Bush/Cheney from their imminent bombing of IRAN???

    http://www.counterpunch.com/lindorff03292007.html

    Why are so many people just waiting for it to happen???

  • Tortoise

    SSBN04

    Sorry old chap, but I’m afraid you’ve not quite been keeping up with the recent goings-on in your new country.

    The Military Commissions (Rendition and Incarceration) Act of 2006 apparently does not protect naturalized citizens from a finding of unlawful combatant status.

    But not to worry. Just keep a stiff upper lip and think of old Blighty; that’ll carry you through the worst. And when the reasonable guy comes around I’m sure you’ll get a Woodbine and a jolly nice cup of tea.
    Pip Pip

  • ssbn04

    Tortoise,

    You lost me with that last paragraph, I’m afraid.

  • shargash

    SSBN04,

    You said, “I retain a confident optimism in the fundamental goodness of the Anglo-Saxon civilization.”

    Even if you are right about the Anglo-Saxon civilization, that civilization isn’t in charge of the forces in the Middle East right now. Several deviant members of it are, and there is ample evidence that both their intentions and actions are anything but “good.”

    Torture is evil. Launching unprovoked wars of agression is evil. Lying one’s way into war is evil. Dropping 1,000 pound bombs on occupied apartment buildings is evil, even if the government thinks, maybe, there is a HVT hiding there.

    Evil people are in charge of the US forces in the area, and they are itching for war with Iran in a misguided attempt to “double down” and redeem their monumental fuckup in Iraq.

    Frankly, I’m puzzled by Iran in this incident. They’ve been playing Bush & His Poodle like violins, at least as far back as when they planted Chalabi to stir up war against Saddam. It seems uncharacteristic for them to be this clumsy (though I should probably allow for the possibility that they are just smarter than I am).

  • ssbn04

    Shargash,

    I agree that (using your term) several deviant members are in charge at the moment. My point is that there is sufficient robustness in our way of life to correct the present situation. People will only tolerate the kinds of shenanigans foisted upon them by the likes of Bush and Blair for so long and then they push back –such has always been the case – John signing the Magna Carta, the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights and myriad other examples. I choose to believe that we are on the cusp of such change and, whereas I abhor this place to which Bush and Blair have pushed us, their malfeasance acts as a catalyst for that change.

    And yes, Torture is evil. Launching unprovoked wars of aggression is evil. Lying one’s way into war is evil.

  • http://profile.typekey.com/MaxPrejean/ MEP

    ssbn04

    My worry is that the “push back” may not arrive in time and with enough strength to stem the tide of insanity. If the current nut case leadership starts turning mid eastern property into glass,all bets for a return of reasonable govt are off. Some would scoff at the notion that “they” would ever go that far. I do not put anything past these people. If they loose power thru legit means, a trip to the Hague is not out of the question. Most people have not yet grasped the magnitude of the crimes. Many still feel it is just a matter of extremely bad politics. Just as Putin appears now to be positioning himself for an extended stay in the Kremlin, I fear Bushco may yet have an extreme plan to maintain power.

  • Kryten42

    Hi Larry,

    I agree with you. And it is something I have been blogging about for the past year. Bush is absolutely determined to start a war with Iran (and the rightwingnut bushlovers as shown above). The USA doesn’t stand any chance of winning a war with Iran. Anyone interested in understanding why can do what any intelligent person does… research. I spent over a year working in the Mid East, and I know that what Larry said about the borders is quite true.

    Anyway… I don’t intend to try to convince anyone with a simple comment. The intelligent, honest and understanding readers here already know the truth, or can find out. :)

    One thing I do believe is that Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq to eventually invade Iran (a simple look at a map will show why). I think Iran was the target all along. Unfortunately for Bush, that plan is in serious trouble and has no chance to succeed now (not that it ever had a chance).

    Thanks for an honest analysis Larry, as always.

    Cheers.

  • ssbn04

    MEP,

    I think we are a long way from turning the sands into glass – not because the Bush/Blair silliness cannot conceive of doing so, but rather because they do not have the means.

    I cannot conceive of British forces agreeing to the use of nuclear weapons under anything but the most dire of circumstances (I actually crewed SSBN04 – HMS Revenge – in the seventies) and nothing about the middle-east situation meets that criteria. The British military does not serve the civilian government, they serve the Crown, and that distinction really does matter and provides the basis to resist unlawful orders.

    I have no direct experience of the US military, but, “Defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same” seems to me to mean that unlawful orders not only may, but must, be resisted.

    Nevertheless, I agree that the present pushback is insufficient and most are obliviously watching American Idol or wondering if Paris Hilton really will go to jail. Avalanches start slowly, however, and the 2006 election shook a few pebbles lose.

  • http://profile.typekey.com/MaxPrejean/ MEP

    ssbn04

    I had guessed your background earlier by researching ssbn. I have enjoyed your comments on this thread and look forward to seeing you around in the future. I don’t think the US is planning to Nuke Iran in the general use of the term. There have been rumors around for sometime that Bush&Co. requested that the military planners include the use of small Tach Nukes to take out hardened Iranian targets. Six years ago I would have not given it much notice. My thinking has changed during those years. And yes US military take an oath to the Constitution not to a man or ideology and they have the right and duty not to obey unlawful orders. However the extent to which the military high command structure has been purged is frightening. Many seasoned, bloodied voices of reason have been forced out. I hope and pray that you are right and I am wrong. A conventional attack will be bad enough.

  • D-Con

    I’m having difficulty getting my cart to pull my horse. I thought I would ask here since it seems to work for you.

  • Chris Vosburg

    toby writes: “Iran is not the lone neighborhood tough–the US is. Yes, they’re influential, but even the Saudis are more so politically, economically, and thanks to US support–militarily. As such, the Iranians can’t dictate the rules of the game to the US. We have a better shot at “dictating” rules in their neighborhood. One reason we can do this so effectively is because our sea-power allows us to control their exports and restrict their gasoline imports. Did I mention we’re the only world superpower?”

    Wow.

    It’s geopolitically ignorant thinking like this that allowed Bush to imagine that if he invaded Iraq, everything would turn out swell. Clearly it’s not our neighborhood, and it’s not about who has the biggest army– as any soldier in Iraq’ll tell you– but thanks anyway for summing up the neocon worldview for us, chowderhead.

  • Chris Vosburg

    I should probably point out the parallels between what’s happening in Iran and what happened in Lebanon last summer.

    But you all knew that already.

  • http://eminent-truth.blogspot.com toby

    Doran – Apparently you misunderstand the “unlawful combatant” argument. The British sailors were in uniform, they were in a clearly designated military boat flying a Geneva-signatory’s flag. As such they are entitled to Geneva protection. Whether there is a declared state of war is irrelevant.

    The US DOJ argument has been that since many of the enemies we’ve been fighting are not fighting for a nation, not fighting under a flag or in a uniform, etc they are not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions–which was a treaty between NATIONS. Al Qaeda never signed the Geneva Conventions…which only highlights the fact that in a conflict involving non-state actors (aka terrorist organizations), what rules should govern? On that point we can debate. When it comes to determining if the Brits are entitled to GC protections, there is no argument.

    And let’s zoom out and look at the full picture. When the US invaded Iraq, did we adhere to the GC when it came to Saddam’s troops? Of course we did. You will find that when the GC applies–ie when dealing with a Nation’s military personnel–the US closely adheres to the GC. You will also find that other signatories do not, by and large, treat our soldiers in a similar manner.

    Delia – While it’s tempting to bundle the UK and US into the same boat regarding Geneva conventions, it’s wrong. Don’t forget that the UK has called repeatedly for the US to shut Guantanamo. If anything, they’ve been striving to uphold the strict interpretation of the Geneva Conventions during the course of this war.

    Kryten – “The USA doesn’t stand any chance of winning a war with Iran.” Completely wrong. Combine a total blockade with the world’s most powerful army and the war is over in a month.

    Obviously I’m a bit out of my element here politically, but could MEP or anyone else explain the seemingly blanket opposition to the use of military force against Iran? Aside from hatred for Bush/Cheney I can’t understand why there’s such fundamental opposition. It seems like most of you apologize or justify aggressive actions by other states while blaming the US for the same.

    Some basic questions someone could answer include:

    Would force be justified:

    to prevent them from developing a nuclear weapon?

    if they attack US ships in the Persian Gulf?

    if they support a terrorist organization that attacks US civilians?

    Thanks…
    toby

  • http://eminent-truth.blogspot.com toby

    Chris –
    I’m not a neocon (or a chowderhead :) ) and I recognize there are limits to US power. My comments about the “lone neighborhood tough” came in response to the inaccurate idea that “[the Iranians] control the conditions under which the game will be played.”

    My only point is that, while I don’t think anyone can “control the conditions” I think the US is in a formidable position to heavily influence the conditions. By virtue of our military, political, and economic ties in the region, the US is the single most influential power there. (I’m sure you’ll agree some of this power has been eroded due to missteps in Iraq.)

    You and I agree that everything would most certainly NOT be swell, as you put it, in the event of war.

    But that’s not what I was talking about. Many people like to overstate the Iranian influence without looking at the broader mideast picture. Iran is seen as a rising threat by nearly every Arab country in the region, with Syria being their closest Arab ally. In this broader context there are 15+ countries in the area who are opposed to Iran’s desired regional hegemony. This should not move us closer to war, but it is important to recognize both the strengths and weaknesses of the Iranian position.

    For the record, I think we should be using Kenneth Pollack’s “Triple Track” strategy for handling Iran. If I remember correctly, he worked for Clinton’s NSC on mideast affairs–hardly a neocon.

    lunch is calling me…perhaps some chowder?

    :=)
    Toby

  • mpumpky

    Toby, most, if not all of your comments sound as if you did a re-write of Rove and Cheney’s flashcards for ‘the reasons to go to war’… based mostly on lies, half truths, or even worse, looking thru rose colored glasses after drinking the neocons kool aide…

    To assume that the US is so beloved in that region because we deposed Saddam and hung him, decries your ignorance. As the proud mother of 3 active duty military sons, I resent your belief that they, and the hundreds of thousands of middle easterners, should be sacrificed for the dream of world domination…

    BTW, have you served in uniform??? I doubt it, but even so, I am glad to say that I will be sitting on the Selective Service board. Perhaps it I won’t get to turn down your deferment application, it will be for your children or grandchildrens. Wish I could do the same for the sons and daughters of those who sent my children to fight in this illegal and imoral occupation.

  • http://eminent-truth.blogspot.com toby

    mpumpky -
    If you’re going to accuse me of writing “lies, half truths or even worse” then
    at least point them out specifically.

    I have never said we were beloved in the region. Any look at polls will prove that we weren’t loved before, we aren’t loved now and we won’t be loved as long as our policies, values, and interests (and the negative perceptions of these) run contrary to the desires of the populations on the ground. Being powerful–which, as I’ve said, we are–is not the same as being well-liked. You would do well not to confuse the two or advocate policies designed to make people love us.

    As for military service – I find it curious that instead of talking about the merits of my arguments, you instantly attack me. Would my arguments be more or less legitimate if I wore a uniform?

    Would you differ to me if I told you I was writing this from a base in Iraq?

    Should we all bow to your arguments because your SONS serve downrange?

    If you’re serving on a Selective Service Board we know for a fact you’ve never served, yet you claim the moral high ground because your sons are serving?

    Needless to say, no one save our enemies wants any American “sacrificed for the dream of world domination.”

    But it sounds like you take your role on the SS Local Board seriously…If there’s a draft, we’ll be in good hands.

    Toby

  • Kryten42

    Bush has no friends (or, I should say that because of Bush the USA has no Arab friends) left in the Mid East.

    Even his bestest friend (tied by much financial interest) Saudi King Abdullah has publicly condemned the US occupation of Iraq and cancelled a State Dinner in Washington (which in diplomatic speak is NOTHING at all like someone cancelling dinner with Auntie). It’s a strong cold shoulder message. Of course to the idiots running the USA now, this means nothing. Their diplomatic *skills* are on par with the schoolyard bully. As many know, the bully’s usually lose.

    Story here:
    http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/international-arabs.html?hp

    This was after King Abdullah of Jordan also cancelled a state dinner visit in September. And they were two of Bush’s strongest supporters.

    Many in the Mid East may not like Persia (Iran) much, but they are beginning (or already do) dislike the USA even more.

    Basically is a message to the USA “Enough is enough. Time to pack up and go. This is our neighborhood. We’ll take it from here.”

    There is NO way the USA can win any confrontation in the Mid East now. Zero. Zip. Nada. With the exception of using Nukes. And that would be the most insane thing that the USA could do. Because it would then tell every Nation on Earth that using Nukes is now legitimate. And with terrorists having access via the black market (and other sources) and Russia stating they will support Iran to whatever extent necessary (and China also BTW) and with hundreds of Nukes still aimed at the USA, that is not really an option except in the minds of the neocon morons who orgasm at the though of mushroom clouds over ‘the bad people’. Problem with that image is that the the World sees the ‘bad people’ as the USA.

    Sweet dreams all.

  • Kryten42

    For those who don’t have an account with NYT (it’s free), Jim Hoagland covers it nicely in WaPo:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/27/AR2007032701761.html

    h/t The Agonist
    http://agonist.org/sun_tzu/20070328/the_jig_is_up_with_the_saudis

  • http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hostpage.aspx?show_id=14668 lester

    ahmedenajads problem is he doesn’t know when to quit. it’s one thing to call for a holocaust conference, it’s another to actually go through with it. it belabors the point, which was who knows what.

    there are enough problems in the world. we don’t need to have people being held captive and put on tv and whatnot for another week.

  • KenBee

    Commander, re your comment 3/29/07 at 20:16 regarding the LOSC.
    My research, lasting 12 minutes has revealed that Iran and the US have signed but not ratified the treaty. United Kingdom has ratified.
    ( The opposition in the US is being led by, among others, Sen Imhofe.)
    Your comment was a good one, but now inquiring minds, one anyway, need to ask:

    Is it your knowledge that Iran is obligated to follow the LSOC treaty as international law?

    Obviously, you implied they are in your comment, but it’s important to be accurate, so what international laws are Iran bound to here regarding this situation.
    Because if not, they may be free to take those sailors into custody….whereas a UK skipper would not be free, unless you have a signing statement in the UK, heh.
    Sorry to suggest that your comment was Cheney-esque, but thanks for the informative comment.
    ……..
    LC and all: thanks for a good perspective on this situation. Most appreciated.

  • KenBee
  • ssbn04

    Kenbee,

    Iran has signed, and I thought ratified, the LOSC.

    Even if Iran claims it has not ratified, and therefore is not bound by, the LOSC, it did sign and ratify the Convention on the Territorial Sea and the Contiguous Zone (1958) (Done at Geneva on 29 April 1958. Entered into force on 10 September 1964. United Nations, Treaty Series, vol. 516, p. 205.), which states:

    Subsection D. Rules applicable to warships Article 23 If any warship does not comply with the regulations of the coastal State concerning passage through the territorial sea and disregards any request for compliance which is made to it, the coastal State may require the warship to leave the territorial sea.

    No right to board and/or arrest is provided for.

    Cheney-esque? What a horrid thought

  • Chris Vosburg

    I’ve had a busy morning with a map and dividers trying to figure out how the hell the UK figures the sailors were in Iraqi waters.

    Since Iran and Iraq have no agreement regarding this border, it falls to simple geometry to determine where it lies, and it must of necessity consist of a set of points equidistant from the land masses of Iraq and Iran.

    No matter how much I measure and squint and compare, I come up with the same conclusion every time: the sailors were in Iranian waters. The coordinates the UK gives as the position of the sailors, and the merchant vessel, are closer to Iranian land than Iraqi land. So was the Cornwall for that matter.

    Am I missing something here? Anybody have any insight on how the UK came up with the border they drew?

  • KenBee

    Commander, thanks for the reply. I was pretty sure there would be something like what you wrote, and the there were basically long standing international protocols.
    I would assume that the rubber boats are auxilliary vessels afforded the same rights.
    The Iranians then don’t have a legal leg upon which to perch, from that analysis, whether or not the vessels were in , out, or near the international waters.
    That there isn’t a good definition of the waterway is just stupid squared. Do you know how the local UK commanders can handle that?
    Do they communicate with their opposite in Iran so as to prevent what the lack of protocols could cause (such as what’s happened).
    I’d guess they aren’t to ‘negotiate’ of course, but to reach a practical agreement where the diplomats have so crucially failed would be in the best interests of the people and expensive deadly hardware in their charge.

    And what do you observe about the claims that the frigate was 12 miles away. It would appear that there was negligence OR intentional neglect: neither one speaks well for your ex-colleagues.
    That radar, radio, the helos, the sailors on the anchored vessel aren’t reported to have reacted as the SIX Iranian vessels arrived is highly suspicious and questionable.
    The news reports act as if they appeared out of thin air, rather than as six vessels coming from Iranian waters for at least four miles away at probably less than 20 knots. ( the ‘routine’ theory says that would be why the lookouts didn’t call for help, cause it’s ‘routine’.)
    There would be lookouts in the UK sailor’s patrol I’d have to assume. There would be radar monitoring of the area I’d also presume.
    The helo, if on the frigate can be airborne in less than 15 minutes, it would be on standby and warmed and ready, while a patrol is away and on board a suspect vessel, is that correct?
    The only explanation I’ve been able to come up with is that there was just such an agreement as I described, perhaps a tacit agreement, that allowed each side to be present in the region without any ruckus.
    That would explain the lack of response until the helo flew over, well after the sailors were reported to be well into Iranian waters and the helo stood down and let them go.
    The soonest I’d say that could have happened is 45 minutes: 15 to get there, 15 to ‘arrest’ the sailors, and 15 to get away to at least UK defined Iranian waters…and that would be really fast.
    Why didn’t the helo stay in the air near the anchored vessel, or the frigate stay close?
    Why didn’t they steam close when the Iranian vessels appeared. The top speed of the frigate is probably almost that of any of the other vessels, while slower to start, not by much.
    Why didn’t the sailors in the inspection party radio for help sooner, or maybe they did. It just seems so negligent, unless this was a routine experience, that the Iranian patrols were always nearby and never apprehended or threatened before, so everybody was calm. This I wonder about.
    The second explanation if you accept the ‘routine’ theory, is that the Rev Guards took over or decided to act then as they hadn’t before.
    ……
    To compare the US arresting and holding various Iranians, apprehended in Iraq, not in military uniforms is then a comparison which can be made, but not supported legally I’d guess.
    Emotionally: fairness, sure, and it’s easy to see the Rev Guards frustration at their own leaders’ seeming deliberateness.
    The Iranian government is thus caught between the embarrassment of returning the hostages and admitting they aren’t in control of parts of their military apparatus. Not good.
    And then there’s Blair…another set of idiots.

  • http://rdanafox.blogspot.com Roger Fox

    KenBee,
    The HMS Cornwall was 12 miles away (10 nautical miles). The MOD/Royal Navy stated it as fact. Cites are here:

    http://rdanafox.blogspot.com/2007/03/hms-cornwall-never-contested-capturing.html

    If I was the CO of the Cornwall I would have been sitting an 1/8 mile off the merchant vessel with my 4.5 inch main gun pointed right at him.

    And when I saw the Iranian gunboats coming up, I would’ve manuevered to put the Cornwall between the gunboats and my people in the Zodiacs. I would have gone to battle stations, just so folks could hear the claxons blaring. Both my Lynx mk 8 gunship helo’s would have been air borne. I would have told Lt. Chekov to ready photon torpedoes.

    I would have swiveled both my Quad Harpoon missile launchers, my 4.5 inch main gun just to make sure the Iranians noticed them, which delivers a message, “My boys got their finger on the trigger pal, you better watch it”.

  • ssbn04

    I have seen no credible statement regarding the Cornwall’s separation from her boat crews, but 10NM does not make sense. With (my) estimation of a bridge height of 40 feet above sea level, Cornwall’s visual horizon is 8 NM and thus, at 10NM distant, the boarding party would have been beyond visual range. No commander would permit that.

    Whomever suggested that the Cornwall use her 4.5 inch gun to dissuade the Iranians from closing on the boat crews has never seen one of those guns in action – damn near impossible to guarantee a hit on a close-to Iranian craft without the possibility of hitting one’s own boats or the merchantman – doubly so if the Iranian approach was visually masked by the merchantman….and can you imagine the furor if the merchantman had been hit? No doubt an experienced Iranian commander would realize this fact. Maneuvering the Cornwall to a point between the merchantman and the Iranians sounds fine, but 4800-ton frigates do not maneuver in a manner consistent with that particular tactic; even getting them up to the required speed takes several minutes – and then one would have to stop in very short order.

    I, however, do not understand why a lynx was not ordered to shoreward of the boarding party prior to the actual boarding. The lynx would have detected the approaching Iranian craft and could have positioned itself between the boarding party’s boats and the Iranians.

  • http://rdanafox.blogspot.com Roger Fox

    No credible statement…

    excuse me…..ssbn04 … the Royal Navy shows exactly this on the graphics they posted on their website. I offered the link to my diary w/MOD cites as documentation, which you have ignored, you have ignored the Royal Navy source. It is what it is.

    I have never seen a 4.5 inch gun in action…correct, but I never said to use it, certainly not in the evironment you paint a picture of, which is contrary to the picture I painted, so I must assume you were not referencing my post. But you did not address anyone, or any post. SO it is unclear.

    I would offer that if the 5300 ton Frigate was close by (1/8th mile), and she spyed Iranian speedboats approaching, the Cornwall would have had perhaps 20 minutes or more to prepare, as the merchant vessel was 7.5 NM from shore.

    On the otherhand, if the Cornwall was that close, I doubt the Iranians would have showed

    Well sourced and cited:

    http://rdanafox.blogspot.com/2007/03/hms-cornwall-never-contested-capturing.html

    The more important point is:

    The UK offered a pawn & the Iranians took it.

  • ssbn04

    Roger Fox,

    The graphic you reference shows a navigation plot. It does not show the accompanying time line. What it does illustrate is a course from a given position to another position 10 NM away. It does not state the launch point of the sea boats, nor does it show the Cornwall hove to at a position 10 NM from the merchantman. I read the chart differently. The statement, “They investigated this vessel after witnessing her unloading cars into two barges secured alongside.” Would indicate that the Cornwall was closer: one cannot witness something from 10NM away; it’s over the horizon.

    You would point a weapon that you would have no intention of using – a weapon that your opponent of the moment knows you will not use? Well, there’s a massive amount of sense in that, now isn’t there?

  • ssbn04

    Roger Fox:

    Here is the original Royal Navy graphic – very different to the one you reference. Cornwall looks to be 5.5NM from the intercept point.

    http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/img/navy/ConMediaFile/enlarge.php?id=27810

  • http://rdanafox.blogspot.com Roger Fox

    5.5nm, yeah, you got it right.

  • http://rdanafox.blogspot.com Roger Fox

    I wonder how high the bridge is on the Cornwall?

    And I wonder how high the crane offloading the cars was….

    Because:

    Standing on a hill or tower of 100 ft height, the horizon is at a distance of 12.25 miles.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon

    Yeah too far…..

  • graywolf

    “War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”

    John Stuart Mill
    English economist & philosopher 1806 – 1873

  • http://profile.typekey.com/scottfinnell/ Little Charlie Beckwith

    “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little saftey, deserve neither liberty nor saftey.” Benjamin Franklin American Patriot

  • lester

    as an america who fully supports the actions of 1776, I proudly do not fit mr mill’s profile of a souless cowardly wrtech.

    p.s. I also support the souths right to sucede in 1861. I’m a regular trotsky-ite warmonger!

  • Chris Vosburg

    “That there are men in all countries who get their living by war, and by keeping up the quarrels of Nations, is as shocking as it is true; but when those who are concerned in the government of a country, make it their study to sow discord and cultivate prejudices between Nations, it becomes the more unpardonable.”

    –Thomas Paine

  • ssbn04

    Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.

    Sir Winston Churchill

  • Chris Vosburg

    “Oh man, what the hell’d I do that for?”

    –George W Bush

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