It Was Not An Ambush

So many people needlessly injured or slain.

You people need to stop the ‘cut and run’ coward mentality – it undermines the courage and stamina of our nation and the intestinal fortitude of our troops overseas. Stop, stop, and shut up. 90% of you have nothing invested in this war except your liberal minded politics and anti-war rhetoric. Stop boo-hooing and grow a pair of testicles. We need to be in Iraq, we need to win in Iraq, we must prevail at all costs, because if we don’t it will be the first step towards the destruction of the Western World. WAKE UP. There is a jihadist who wants to annihilate you, your family, and everything you live for and he’s knock, knock, knocking at your front door.

MarcusMaximus,
Larry Johnson, whose blog you’re commenting on, is a Republican.

Curious, what do you have invested in this war MarcusMaximus? What’s your definition of winning? You say mourning the deaths of US troops is whining. So when you hear about US troop deaths, you do what–celebrate?

Right, if we don’t win in Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11 and didn’t attack us, the entire Western World will face destruction. From whom? You do know that al Qaeda and bin Laden are in Pakistan, right? You’re aware that most of the men who attacked us on 9/11 were Saudi? And you do know that al Qaeda attacked us because of our presence in the Middle East, right? They could care less about our freedoms. You really think bin Laden cares if you post ridiculous and stupid comments on a blog?

Anon,
Isn’t it curious the way so many of these cretins give themselves the names of pseudo-Roman conquerors? It’s not just that Maximus Jerkus sounds as if he’s been a hermit for the last 50 years, but he also missed the fall of the Roman empire.

what does winning or victory in Iraq mean actually? When might this possibly occur?

“what does winning or victory in Iraq mean actually?”

Victory means U.S. political, economic, territorial, and social control over Iraq. It means permanent military bases. It means setting up a U.S. regional command and control center (aka the largest embassy in the world) in Baghdad. And, of course, it means U.S. control over Iraq’s oil.

“When might this possibly occur?”

It will occur when every last real Iraqi is dead or exiled, and all that is left is the imported quislings who rode in on American tanks. Hey – don’t worry, they’re getting there!

Leslie – if you want to use correct Latin to refer to the self-styled Roman conqueror above, it would not be “Maximus Jerkus”, which puts the adjective before the modified noun a la English and German, but “Jerkus Maximus”, which a la Latin and Romance languages puts the modifying adjective after the noun except if all jerks are maximum jerks.

Given the example of Jerkus Maximus above, I conclude that not all jerks are maximum jerks, because clearly one stands head and shoulders above the rest.

anon, right on bro…. those 4 years of Latin i took in high school have some residual value,yes?

gaulia divisa in tres partes est…..

robbie – el boludo grande, in spanish

“Why are we so stupid that we don’t realize that the enemy doesn’t always wear a uniform? 200+ years and we haven’t learned a god damned thing. Semper Fi, Tap”

WHAT Tap Said!!!

Why are we so stupid that we keep allowing such disingenious assholes, who have gone to great trouble to ensure they would never serve in a war, or serve at all (except themselves; they always help themselves)– to talk, manipulate, scheme and outright LIE to convince us to commit such precious resources to so much deranged destruction?

and YES Larry! It is TIME to bring our soldiers home…how can we live with ourselves, sending them back and back and back to do this..this, what? shirin would have an answer. I would have an answer. all our answers are wrong, and a great deal of this nation KNEW this way back,and they sure know it today.
Enough! end this madness
detenga la locura!

“a well-thought- out plan by RESISTANCE fighters to kill occupying forces.”

Resistance?

Baathist dead -enders is more like it.
I suppose you’re going to compare these “resistance” asshole thugs to US Revolutionary soldiers?

It doesn’t matter how or why we went there – 4 years ago.
We’re there….and rationalizing the killing of US troops makes you just as big a scumbag MF as the “resistance.”

PS Graywolf, sorry to break this to you, but you are waaaaay behind on your spin. The Ba`thist dead-ender Bushit went out in 2003.

In any case, whatever you want to call them, they are kicking your butt, and sooner or later they are going to kick your butt out of Iraq and back to the U.S.A. The sooner you lower your head, tuck your tail between your legs and run away, the less painful your inevitable departure is going to be.

anon

“Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres” Latin phrase meaning “Gaul is divided into three parts;” the beginning of Caesar’s Gallic Wars.

i misquoted, but considering it was 40 years ago that i studied latin, i’ll cut myself some slack.

Yup, Graywolf, typical bully-getting-his-butt-kicked behaviour. At first, the harder your butt is getting kicked, the more and louder you bluster, and then suddely you lower your head, tuck your tail, and run away yelping at the top of your voices. So, bluster away Graywolf, ’cause it won’t be long before you’re yelping toward the horizon.

And for the record, I consider all loss of human life a tragedy, and avoidable loss of human life is a crime. It’s really too bad American troops have to pay the price for the crimes of their government.

Thank you Larry for another fine post, and for some great comments as well. Minimus jackal is a fine example of a wingnut trying to draw his last breath, and sputters while spinning…

I seriously doubt that this group of men fell asleep, while on duty. If they did, it would be very out of character, to say the least. Even if they are tired. They are trained better than that. I would be more inclined to think that they were expecting reinforcements, which might not have made it… Lots of reasons, maybe, but I doubt falling asleep…

Thanks Larry for remembering all our men and women, as well as for these words, which I know are from your heart, and echo mine own:”I mourn the deaths of these brave young men. It is increasingly apparent that they are dying in vain with no clear objective in sight. It is time to bring our soldiers home.”

AND DO IT NOW!!!!

Where does your hatred of Bush stop and hatred of the USA begin?

Shirin….since you can’t keep it above the personal insult level…your tone and childish “threats” seem to indicate one whose manhood is on the short side.

Just another little punk living in a basement, jacking-off – to Olberman?

On a serious note, now that I have had some fun with our American-supremacist-dead-ender friend:

“this kind of disaster… results from having to do ‘too many things with too few troops.’ ”

Ummmmmm – no. It results from ordering your troops to use massively destructive and deadly means to force their way into someone else’s country, and then to maintain their presence by means of even more destructive and deadly actions in order to, in the words of your silly erstwhile colonial viceroy and fashion maven L. Paul “Jerry” Bremer III “impose your will upon the country”.

You could have avoided all of it by not committing the most grievous of international crimes, aggressive invasion of a sovereign state. You could have avoided all of it by not sending your troops to use massive violence to occupy someone else’s country without the slightest provocation, and to enforce that occupation with massively destructive and deadly violence against mainly civilian targets. You could have avoided most of it by removing your troops and thus ending their massively destructive and deadly – and counter productive – violence as soon as it became clear that their presence and their violence were causing more problems than they were solving.

In other words, please let’s cut through the “we did it all wrong” bull**** and go straight to the reality that it was doing it at all that was wrong, and there is no right way to do a wrong thing.

The deaths of the American troops is regrettable, but the attack on them was a legitimate act of resistance against an illegitimate foreign aggression. No one with an ounce of humanity can rejoice over what happened to them, but resistance against foreign aggression is legitimate and legal, and therefore the attack on those unfortunate troops was legitimate and legal.

“The response of U.S. troops in the area–going house to house and taking people into custody–is understandable but counterproductive. The odds are high that we are taking men into custody who had nothing to do with the attackers or the attack. But, by taking them into custody their honor is insulted and they are more likely to support insurgent activities in the future.”

Larry, your basic thinking about this is right, if typically America-centrically focused on how it affects Americans and the American project as opposed to human-centrically focused on the way it affects the human beings who are its victims. But please! Their HONOUR is insulted? You think the worst that happens in these house to house searches and street sweeps is INSULTED HONOUR?! You think that simply being insulted is going to induce an Iraqi human being to risk his life and that of his family to support or join the resistance (not insurgency – can we dispense with the false propaganda terms, please)? Come to think of it, what would it take beyond “insulted honour” to get an American to support the resistance in a similar situation?

I think you know what typically happens in these house to house searches, and I think you know it is not exactly a polite visit. So, how would Americans react to having their house violently broken into by heavily armed foreign invaders? They’d invite them in, offer them coffee and send one of the kids out for some Krispy Kremes? Or might they just decide it was time to start supporting the resistance? In fact, Larry, I daresay that even if the invading troops knocked politely at the door and removed their combat boots before entering the house, the average American would decide at that point that it was time to join the resistance – assuming s/he was not already an active member simply as a response to having the country invaded. So, why on earth does any reasonable person expect anything different of any Iraqi?

It’s very interesting, isn’t it, that there has been not one scintilla of news about what the people of Yusifiyya are being put through. We are hearing every hour on the hour for days on the American media about “house to house searches” as though no human beings are involved at all, just houses. Well, some news is getting to those of us who are in touch with what is going on, and it isn’t just “insulted honour” that is going on here. One report says that 900 men have been arrested, which would be just about all the men in Yusifiyya. That is actually not so far fetched because it does not mean they are holding all of them for a long time, so they may have arrested them all for anywhere from a few hours to a few days, to who knows how long. But in any case, based on the few reports that are coming out, it is the standard very brutal and damaging way of entering people’s homes, breaking down the doors, terrorizing and often brutalizing the inhabitants damaging the contents, “confiscating” – i.e. stealing – property, money, and gold, sometimes eating the food, mistreating people, including inflicting injuries, and who knows how many they may have killed too. How would Americans react to this kind of “insulted honour”?

And by the way, where does this obsession with offended honour come from? Is it the same source that has everyone believing the bull**** that in Iraq the deepest insults are delivered with shoes, or that in Iraqi culture pointing the wrong part of your foot at someone is a deep enough insult as to be a deal breaker? Or my personal favourite, “how were we to know that in Iraqi culture it is considered offensive to break down someone’s door at 3 AM, rampage through the house screaming in a foreign language, breaking things, terrorizing the children, manhandling his wife and his elderly parents, and then him out of bed in his night clothes, and in front of his family and neighbors throw him onto the ground and press his face into the dirt by putting your boot on the back of his neck? I mean, in most cultures that is perfectly polite behaviour, so how were we to know that this would not win hearts and minds in the strange and exotic culture of Iraq?

Graywolf: You continue to try the “dirty fucking hippies” meme at a site run by a Republican former CIA guy and frequented by CIA and military people. Your recurring theme is, yes, invading Iraq was a big mistake, but we can’t leave now because things will get much worse so all you people who were right need to shut your unpatriotic traps and let the people responsible for this monumental fuck-up keep on keeping on. As if somehow all of us who knew this would be a monumental fuck-up are now un-American for wanting it to stop being a monumental fuck-up. To say it’s a dishonest and ridiculous bit of logic is to give it to much credit. The extent of the dishonesty is revealed by the fact Generals are resigning to speak out http://www.nwfdailynews.com/article/4832 very publicly and very harshly; long-time cheerleaders like Gen. Barry McAffrey are now making comments like “our military is unraveling”. Leaving Iraq is bad – staying in Iraq is bad with the added bonus of our military continuing to be degraded. This harms our ability to respond elsewhere, and is causing problems domestically with natural disaster responses.
From a military standpoint alone a powerful argument can be made for withdrawal; the massive economic drain and damage to our reputation only strengthen the argument further.

Larry, I would agree that ambush is not the correct term, in fact, it was more of a counter ambush tactic. This patrol (which is an accurate term) was likely a static, overt “ambush” of its own guarding against IED emplacements. I would rate the attack more as a well planned raid.

“The most likely possibility–the U.S. soldiers were asleep and did not spot the attackers.”

But this statement goes too far, as a soldier it is rather insulting that one would assume that professional soldiers could not stay awake during a 5 hour checkpoint. I’ve been on many 5 plus hour checkpoints like this one, many at night, and sleep was never a concern. This statement also takes away something from the attackers, the attackers did not just walk up on sleeping soldiers and slit their throats. These attackers likely conducted a vehicular raid similar to what we saw in Karbala or what we’ve seen in Al Qaeda training videos.

Resistance versus insurgents. Both likely wrong. This was not the work of amateurish resistance fighters, nor militia and possibly not even Iraqis. This raid, like the raid last June (which was in the same province) where two soldiers were abducted, executed and mutilated, and the raid in Karbala last winter, were likely conducted by professionals. International terrorists who likely come into Iraq to fight, leave the country for a while until things cool down, and return a few months later to do it again.

“”this kind of disaster… results from having to do ‘too many things with too few troops.”

I will disagree with this statement for slightly different reasons from Shirin. This statement implies that more troops in Iraq would prevent this type of disaster.

No. Better tactics, better planning would prevent this type of ‘disaster.’ (and yes the obvious, no troops in Iraq would prevent it, but that is not a political reality today). Someone must have forgot that this same thing happened June of last year in the same area. Either someone failed to plan, or the attack was simply so well executed that there was just nothing that the soldiers could have done (which is a real possibility). More troops, sure, perhaps if a full platoon was at that checkpoint, the raid could not have been successful and it wouldn’t have even been attempted. A full platoon was likely available, but that unit’s planning didn’t deem it needed.

Point of contention: If a village is persuaded by “Honor” to stone a child to death, I think it is reasonable that honor would drive someone to join AIF.

P.S.

Army Doctrine (Ranger handbook) definition of an ambush:

An ambush is a surprise attack from a concealed position on a moving or temporally halted position.

So upon further review, if we are concerned with semantics, this could have been an ambush. The concealed position could have been civilian vehicles. The patrol was halted for 5 hours at a temporary site. If this checkpoint was a fixed checkpoint, you could argue a raid. Either way, it is only semantics.

Me – again. (hehehe)

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” – John Stuart Mill

“Why are we in Iraq?”

Several reasons: To remove a brutal dictatorial leadership and free the oppressed people of Iraq; To assert American influence in the Middle East and create and maintain a strategic base within the heart of the region that will allow us react, militarily, to further terrorist provocations and/or threats to the United States, our allies, and our ‘interests’ in the region; To create a viable and successful democratic society in a section of the world that seems to loathe the very concept of “freedom”; and to drag the most backward, barbaric culture on the face of the planet into the 21st Century.

And that is mostly the truth.

All else is bullshit, really. People, who demean our leaders, our citizens, our soldiers, and our country as a whole, are bending the truth to suit their own purposes. They say things like, “Perpetual warfare,” “What a mess,” “Bushistas,” “…shrieking war monkeys,” “These people running our government make me ill… but it hurts me to think of the damage Bush and Co. are doing to our nation in general and our brave soldiers specifically.”

All coming from individuals who don’t even know what a M16A2 or M4 is, let alone have been called upon to fire one. When are people going to wise up to fact that this type of rhetoric does more damage than good? That this type of language not only erodes the authority of our duly elected leaders, but it tears down the morale and confidence of the American people. This kind of ‘truth ‘is hurtful, degrading, and counterproductive. Certainly there is room for political discourse, which is healthy for a democratic society, but allowing blind hatred of a political figure and his administration get in the way of doing the ‘right’ thing is not just counter-productive, it’s wrong. We have much more to loose here then some stupid political battle. This situation is far beyond what political party is in charge and who is calling the shots – this is a dire situation where our society, our culture, our traditions, the very fabric of our belief systems, is at risk. At what point do we say: “Politics be damned – let us be the victors.”?

I am not a warmonger, truly I am not – but by God, if someone picks a fight with me – then I will fight that fight – and I will fight to win. My son is a Combat Medic, U.S. Army (just returned home) My Daughter is a Broadcast Journalist (46R), US Army who is in Ramadi and won’t be home for another year. I served my country in the U.S. Army until I was medically discharged – and I still serve today as a Fed. (Nope, never worked for DIA.) “Marcus Maximus” is a nickname I got (I’m a big dude) when I was working with the US Border Patrol doing counter-drug and alien interdiction ops in Texas. So, unlike most of you, I DO have something invested in the War against Terror. “SOF” experience doesn’t impress me – because I’ve worked “SOF” ops too. And yes, I still call you all a bunch of cowards – “bring our troops home” is the worse friggin’ idea ever. You think bringing our troops home will solve our, and the world’s, problems? If anything it’ll make the problems worse. The VERY last thing we need to do is embolden the jihadist cause. I could really care less about “Larry’s” political affiliation – you start giving up on a noble and just cause – and I’ll call you a coward, too.

….”Marcus Maximus” is a nickname I got (I’m a big dude) when I was working with the US Border Patrol doing counter-drug and alien interdiction ops in Texas….

Oh, so you were given that incorrect name in Texas? Makes perfect sense.

I realize I may not always be the best example, but I’d encourage folks to focus more on substance and less or personal invective. As I said, I need to take some of my own advice.

Larry: “I realize I may not always be the best example, but I’d encourage folks to focus more on substance and less or personal invective.”

But Larry, when dealing with such insensate bullshit as the ravings of Ignoramus Maximus, what is one to do except go for the personal and the ever so satisfying invective!!???
When substance is utterly lacking, go below the belt I say, even though in Minimus’s case there may not be much substance there either.
For instance, when he speaks of “intestinal fortitude”, I translate that as meaning Minimus is constipated.
Now Jerkus Maximus, are you gonna take your Castor oil???
The great thing about No Quarter is that after a steady diet of serious and thought provoking accounts from you Larry, Leslie, Susan, Mr Murder, Chris Vosburg, the wonderful Shirin and many others,… a tremendous comedic rube like Minimus comes out of nowhere to sort of lighten the atmosphere with jaw-dropping imbecility the likes of which is truly beyond the ken of mortal men…

Thanks Anon and everyone else for the Latin and Roman history lessons. My pidgeon Latin definitely could use some work.

Leslie,

Do not forget that Al Qa`eda is still Iraq’s enemy. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis are opposed to Al Qa`eda and do not want them in the country. And certainly, Al Qa`eda is the enemy of the current make-believe Iraqi government.

Shirin,
would you agree that the minute the US leaves Iraq (blessed moment for all good people of the world), Iraqis of all stripes, tribes, religion and political coloration will immediately turn on Al Qa’eda and assorted foreign jihadists and kick them out pretty quick-quick??

Patrick Henry: “The Iraqi People did not appreciate the American “LIBERATION” so much that they replaced Saddam’s statue with a Replica of the Statue of Liberty..or start naming their sons “GEORGE”..”

Ah, that’s beautiful Patrick, I’m still laughing and having trouble typing….!!!!
The thought of George Hussein or George al Maliki, and let’s not forget Muqtada’s newborn son, George al Sadr, is having me rolling on the floor!!!!!
Thanks for the much needed comic relief!!!

Shirin,
The Third Amendment of the U.S. Constitution is a relic of the British Occupation of the U.S:

“No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.”

Ah, yes, Montag – I remember that one now! And it is not only the U.S. Constitution that prohibits the quartering of troops in people’s houses. International law also does. However, the U.S. is above – or is it beneath – having to comply with international law. As for the U.S. Constitution, we have all seen how the Bush administration likes to turn it upside down.

Parenthetically, it is striking – but not at all surprising – how closely U.S. occupation tactics mimic the Israelis’ in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. And why not? Look how successful the Israelis have been in controlling the occupied population. (Irony intended)

“would you agree that the minute the US leaves Iraq …Iraqis of all stripes, tribes, religion and political coloration will immediately turn on Al Qa’eda and assorted foreign jihadists and kick them out pretty quick-quick??”

Michel, Iraqis really, really do not like foreigners interfering in their business. Polls and other indicators show that the majority of Iraqis of all “stripes, tribes, religion, and political coloration” hold low to very low opinions of Al Qa`eda in general and so-called “Al Qa`eda in Iraq” (whose connection to bin Laden’s Al Qa`eda is questionable) in particular. It is also a fact that Iraqis have been actively fighting against these people to an increasing degree from the beginning. Whatever “support” so-called “Al Qa`eda in Iraq” and other “foreign jihadists” have ever had is born of Iraqis’ desperation to rid themselves of the American occupation, which they rightly see as a long-term project. As soon as the Americans are gone, what little support there is for these “foreign jihadists” will evaporate almost entirely, and they will quickly follow the Americans as all of them run yelping for the border.

Well said, Sir Patrick, as always… You reflect and speak so well…

No ambush, I agree. I wonder even more, knowing all that we know about this cabal who has set this all in motion, if somehow they were not set up??? It is horrible for me to even think this way, but with the way bushco, and these neocons have run things, I wouldn’t put even something like this out of the scope of their treason…
I am so glad to see Wolfowizzzz gone. Hope he and his buddies won’t be forgotten… their time in hell is coming… The whole group of them, to the HAGUE…

OT, but important, I believe… I have been busy making Impeachment signs from recycled materials, and putting them around town wherever I can… what other things (besides calling and writing/emailing reps) can we do to keep the pressure on??? Hopefully I can get a ride to the Detroit Town meeting… Dingell is getting tired of me, and as for Mike Rogers (Rethug who beat out Jim Marcinkowski)… he is getting ready to go on my updated sheetmaster list… I think he is and idiot…

Shirin:”As soon as the Americans are gone, what little support there is for these “foreign jihadists” will evaporate almost entirely, and they will quickly follow the Americans as all of them run yelping for the border.”

Right on, sister, right on!!!, as we used to say when I was young(er);-)

Just someone: “if we do withdraw it won’t be because of our troops “squealing”.”
Yeah, back in the days we used to call that withdrawal “peace with honor”, yet with the same results: GI Joe running for cover, grabbing for that last helicopter, shitting his pants and crying for mommy.
And now you bring up F-16 Hornet fantasies of manhood, American heroes ensconced in high tech weaponry. Well, get real homeboy, that’s exactly what makes the Iraqi Resistance the heroic and courageous ones in this sordid affair: they’re fighting with minimal weaponry (quite effective at that) an invading colossus bristling with WMDs, and they’re kicking the shit out of the motherfucker!!
Of course, the Iraqi people are paying the heavy price: collateral damage we call it in the current version of “newspeak”.
Have you ever read this short story by Tom Wolfe about fighter jocks flying missions off carriers over Vietnam, and how they all had Filipino man servants?
That was because they just couldn’t drop their underwear at the ship’s laundry after they came back from missions where they had to dodge SA-7s and NV flak with said underwear showing major brown spots after our “heroes” landed their F-4s on the deck!! So the “barely human” filipino, the slope ‘du jour’, was the only one who got to see our heroes’ intestinal action “up close and personal”, so to speak!!
Well, I’m glad you’re contributing money to the cause. It’ll help our “heroes” pay for their laundry bill!!!!

Maximus,
It’s amazing that you would quote John Stuart Mill, one of the most impassioned defenders of free speech, to argue that everyone at this blog ought to shut up!? Speaking of cowards, what are you afraid of? Worried debate may lead you to question some of your beliefs?

For example, you write: “Why are we in Iraq? Several reasons: To remove a brutal dictatorial leadership and free the oppressed people of Iraq; To assert American influence in the Middle East and create and maintain a strategic base within the heart of the region that will allow us react, militarily, to further terrorist provocations and/or threats to the United States, our allies, and our ‘interests’ in the region; To create a viable and successful democratic society in a section of the world that seems to loathe the very concept of “freedom”; and to drag the most backward, barbaric culture on the face of the planet into the 21st Century.”

First of all, the brutal dictator Saddam was our ally in the 1980s. We have the receipts for many of the weapons, most of which were destroyed in the 1990s, that Bush Jr. later used as an excuse for war.

Right, metaphorically speaking, our military lease was up in Saudi Arabia, so the shock and awe was worth 3,000+ US lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives to move the base to Iraq. Millions of POIs, POMs and POAs, some of whom now want to join al Qaeda as a result of our actions, the alienation of our allies, the disastrous shift of focus from al Qaeda to Iraq is all worth one lousy Baghdad military base according to you.

An area of the world “that’s loathe to accept the idea of freedom”??? In other words, Iraqi’s should be grateful that we’re bombing them into democracy.

You believe Iraq is “the most backward, barbaric culture on the face of the planet into the 21st Century.” As if invading and bombing a country that hasn’t attacked you were a civilized act.

What do you know about Iraq? I’m not an expert, but at least I’ve read enough to know that the history of that area is rich. Babylonia, today’s Iraq, has made significant contributions to the world in the fields such as medicine, astronomy, algebra and mathematics, literature, the arts. For example: In Babylonian times, women and men were educated and most towns had libraries. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon were one of the 7 wonders of the world. Did you know that a basic theory of evolution was developed 600 years before Charles Darwin by 13th century Persian scientist Nasir al-Din Tusi? Or that the 10th century Iraqi Muslim astronomer, engineer, mathematician and physicist Ibn al-Haytham may have been the father of modern optics and established the use of scientific experiments? Or that the 20th-century Iranian Ali Javan invented the gas laser in 1960?

Until the invasion, Iraq had one of the highest literacy rates and most well educated populations in the Middle East.