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The Collapse of the GOP

Guest Post by Patriot John, cross-posted at Alegre’s Corner.

Not trusting polls because of the ’04 exit polling debacle, I suspended belief when likely voter models in tracking polls showed a 39D/33R difference in party identification. Skeptics in diaries here and elsewhere pointed out that 2004, a year when Democrats were fired up, saw evenly split ID, 37D/37R.

But this time, the polls were dead on. The tracking polls showed a 7 point win, the difference in the popular vote was about that, and party identification differed by 7 percent.

The shift in ID equal to the margin of victory exposes the GOP collapse.

The CNN 2004 exit poll
showed no advantage for either party in voter identification, but Tuesday’s 2008 exit poll showed the 7 point advantage, essentially the entire winning margin of voters who identify themselves as Democrats.

As Sidney Blumenthal writes in this column echoing his new book, The Strange Death of Republican America: Chronicles of a Collapsing Party,

Despite the daily tracking-polls and the back-and-forth of the candidates, the underlying story of the 2008 presidential campaign has until the very day of the election remained the Bush presidency and how it brought about the end of the long era of Republican political dominance that began in 1968 with the election of Richard Nixon. That story is the subject of my book, The Strange Death of Republican America: Chronicles of a Collapsing Party.

Bush has the lowest sustained popularity among modern presidents. The Republican Party has fallen farther behind the Democratic Party in party identification and favorable ratings than it has in decades. Democrats are poised to make dramatic gains in their numbers in the House of Representatives and the Senate.

The previously little-known Senator Barack Obama could have vaulted to become the Democratic nominee only as a response to Bush. Senator John McCain’s emergence as the Republican nominee is also one of Bush’s consequences. Without the crackup of the conservative movement and the fragmentation of the Republican primary field, McCain would not have had his opening. His candidacy is as much a manifestation of the shattering of the Republican phalanx as Obama’s. Whatever the outcome of their contest, the party as it was is over. Today no one can even envision when the Republicans will control the presidency and both houses of the Congress as they did as recently as 2006.

Bush ruined the GOP brand, so laboriously constructed and maintained following Goldwater’s 1964 defeat. From WMDs to Katrina to the Coalition Provisional Authority to the failure to find bin Ladin to the mortgage crisis to the energy crisis to the Wall Street meltdown, America is through with its tolerance for conservative national government. Voters now want solutions from the government, and tune out the 40 year GOP mantra of taxes, big government and socialism. The debate audience tracking meter showed big trouble for the GOP when independent female voters reliably pegged the meter every time Obama offered (often Hillary’s) solutions.

Hispanics in particular were turned off by what they’ve seen, giving McCain only 31% in 2008 to Bush’s 44% in 2004.

The 7% difference in party ID turned out to be a structural element that made it nearly impossible for a Republican to win or a Democrat to lose.

The CNN exit poll shows that people made up their minds weeks ago and earlier polling shows that party ID has been stable. The 7% who were late-deciders split evenly. This election was decided well before the campaign, maybe before it even started. (Bradley effect: exactly zero)

Through this lens, the past year seems like a big waste of money. Certainly McCain being outspent by 8X did not produce proportionate results: the margin of victory was the same as the difference in party ID. Contrary to earlier promises, independents and Republicans did not cross over in unusual numbers.

We used to joke that the conditions in 2000 and 2004 were such that the GOP could win with a trained chimp.

Well, that trained chimp did things so poorly that this year, anything that resembled a donkey could win.

I wonder how much we would have over-performed above the gap in party ID if we’d had a different candidate?

  • NoBama

    Palin will need to re-establish her reputation as more of a centrist, but with some strong personal conservative convictions on fiscal issues. I think she may run for the senate seat of Stevens and go to Washington if she has national aspirations. If she doesnt, I think she will stay put in Alaska.
    I think Palin is a fighter, and she feels short-changed by the Mccain campaign. I think she wants to have her own voice and say what she wants without “handlers”.

  • Clyde1975

    Just think if Stevens in AK wins and sent to jail Gov. Palin will appoint the new Senator from AK.

    OT—To all Palin supports rick davis was on H/C last nite and stated all the rumor about Palin were just that RUMORS. The grassroots of the GOP are really Pissed off about the Rumors they are for Plalin. Palin is now the de facto front runner for 2012 this is if she wants it. There was too polls last nite on O’Reillys show which stated. Did Gov. Palin help or hurt McCain 60% said Palin help and 20% hurt. The other one was who was the front runner for 2012. Palin got something like 30-40% the rest got in the teens. Rommoy,Huck Jidal.

    • Clyde1975

      I forgot to mention th poll was conducted by Rassmussion(sic. He polled 1000 gopers.

    • anon

      Can anyone explain to me why the current batch of anti-Palin rumors are apparently coming from anonymous republican sources? Palin didn’t know Africa was a continent? Hey, I’m a democrat who voted Obama, but even I don’t believe totally bizarre stuff like that.

      • Patience

        Republican turf wars! Weeks ago I’d read that Romney people were behind recent (diva, rogue) smears. Lately I’ve read that Bush/Rove (who wanted the baton passed to Romney) surrogates have fed the rumor mill too.

        No incumbant ran this time, so turf wars were fought Right and Left. With McCain’s loss, there’s no clear winner yet on the Right. But the ferocity of the attacks on Palin prove that she’s regarded as being formidable. McCain would’ve finished worse without her, in spite of the spin (again, turf war) that she was a drag on the ticket. Ambitious Republicans are in a free-for-all.

      • Tversky

        I’ve got a couple of theories:

        1)The McCain staffers leaking this stuff are just trying to cover their own butts for their flawed (to put it delicately) campaign strategy execution. They’re scapegoating Palin to save their reputations and win future campaign roles. One reason I don’t think McCain himself has anything to do with this is that every smear of Palin reflects poorly on him: Both as the man that picked Palin and the man that picked the staff. It makes his judgment questionable.

        2)Someone in the GOP establishment wants to destroy Palin because they see her as too polarizing to win a general election campaign. Her popularity with the base would guarantee she wins the GOP nomination but she’d go down in flames (assuming she cannot re-establish her reputation beforehand)during the general election. It’s kind of a “we must destroy this village to save it” type strategy. I saw similar chicanery going on with respect to Huckabee. Some big GOP muckety mucks were terrified he’d actually win the nomination.

  • http://sparrowfallen.blogspot.com/ Fallen Sparrow

    McCain failed to point out the pork in the bailout package and failed to name names, as he promised. He nebulously attributed the Fannie/Freddie mess to ‘Wall Street greed’ without elaborating and without pointing to (inexplicably) his own calls for reform years ago. He failed to point out the massive amounts of money and support that Fannie and Freddie gave to Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, and Barack Obama. He failed for his failure to elucidate and abide by conservative principles.

    Had he done so, the Republican base would have shown up in droves. Many of us showed up for Gov. Palin (who had the fortitude to speak over the media), but had it been anyone else, we would have stayed home. Despite her pick, many of them did.

    • fluffy bunny

      He named the names Frank and Dodd over and over in campaign speeches. he did so in the 3rd debate.

      The MSM wouldn’t cover it, and wouldn’t repeat if if they showed a speech uninterrupted.

      Palin did the same.

      but people who only got their news from the alphabet networks, or from conservative talk radio repeat over and over that McCain wouldn’t name names or talk about Fannie or Freddie.

      And Fannie and Freddie were run by greedy people on Wall Street.

      Signing the bailout was a huge mistake, and suspending his campaign was a huge mistake. But he did the rest of the stuff you listed.

      • Tversky

        You’re right. He did name names in campaign speeches. The media ignored that. It’s just like now: The right wingers are ignoring the fact that McCain spoke out on Palin’s defense when the stupid $150,000 shopping spree “scandal” came out. He told his staff to knock it off.

        The way the GOP has acted since the election ended has revealed to me that the conservative base just hates McCain. Period. Anything he does or does not do is interpreted in the worst way possible. At the same time, the snotty GOP “elites” hate Palin. Some suspect Romney people. The GOP base obviously suspects the “traitor Juan Amnesty McCain and the rest of the RINOs.” RME. I suspect Bushies. After all, Nicole Wallace and Steve Schmidt aren’t McCainiacs. They are old Bush people that McCain hired for his campaign. But why should a little thing like facts get in the way of hating McCain and the dreaded RINOs? Regardless, someone in the GOP is clearly frightened of Palin. They’ve done everything they could to hurt and discredit her. It’s sickening. I swear the GOP is almost as bad as Soro’s UnDemocratic Party.

    • Tversky

      I agree that McCain should have done all those things. I’m not angry that he voted for the bailout because the situation was catastrophic (the entire financial system was on the verge of collapse. If people don’t understand why that’s a serious problem that would eventually affect Main Street than they’re just too dumb to vote IMO.) But like you said, he should have pointed out the pork in that bill and then explained why he still had to reluctantly vote for it.

      However, I disagree that doing those things would’ve been enough to get the conservative base out to support him. It’s wrong to simply conclude only the fiscal conservatives stayed home. (Plus McCain has very good fiscal conservative bona fides since he’s one of only a few senators that never takes pork and he’s got a record of ferreting our inefficiencies and waste in government spending.)
      No, the members of the conservative base that stayed home either wanted to send the party a message for abandoning conservative principles and/or they simply hate McCain because he’s gone against his own party multiple times. Many of these people take their cues from Malkin, Beck, Coulter, etc. A lot of them couldn’t find it in their hearts to vote for the traitor, Juan “Amnesty” McCain (as they like to call him). I’m sorry but I refuse to give them a pass.

      They were either too stupid or too petty to do what’s in the country’s best interest. In fact, I put the vast majority of the blame for McCain’s failure at their feet. Particularly since he reached out to them by picking Sarah Palin. Obviously, they hate McCain more than they love Sarah. Moreover, it’s clear their hatred for McCain trumps whatever hatred, fear or loathing they feel for Obama.

      IMO they’ve forfeited any right to bitch and complain about Obama’s Marxist fascist regime because they helped create it.

  • Zaggs

    The GOP had the right candidate. What they didn’t have was the right campaign. McCain wasted too much time on tactics that in a fair media environment might have gotten some good will (biography tour, forgotten america tour) but everyone knows that we don’t have a fair enviroment in the media.
    There was no reason for McCain to accept public financing. Outside it being just another lie by Obama no one really cared. He most likely would not have had spending parity with Obama but it would have been closer and hell being at a 2 to 1 disadvantage may have produced wonderful results.
    McCain also played too nice. For that he got branded the sleaziest campaign. Despite the fact his campaign didn’t drop race bombs every other weak, attack the other sides VP’s kids, call the other sides VP a nazi, and make issue of the other side’s wife. To show just how corrupt the media (and supposed fairness monitor’s factcheck.org and politifact.com) was look at the two ads that got McCain in so much trouble, infanticide and teaching kindergartners sex ed. Both were completely accurate by the legislation the messiah supported.
    Maybe Palin got some more social cons to come out. But picking a more moderate VP would have been loads more helpful (Jindal would have had the same problem. No is this a crack against Palin herself. She did what she was supposed to do and did it very well.). I thought Lieberman would have been game set match. Romney also could have turned the tide.
    The capaogn’s response economic crisis could have been better. Why suspend the campaign to get an agreement done? Because people like Pelosi, Reid, Frank and Obama are more concerned with the country’s well being then their parties? Please. The McCain camp should have known that those democrats would sabotage any agreement to make McCain look ineffectual (and in fact thats exactly what obama did). Instead it should have resulted in an all out media blitz showing how those same democrats started the whole mess in the first place. Once Obama sabotaged the first WH meeting that also should have been shouted from the rooftops.
    More opposition research. Why is it bankrupting the coal industry comes up two days before the election? Why the hell were ads not run on that for a month before the election in Pennsylvania?
    In the end any of the above could have produced a McCain win as he did not lose major battleground states by too much.

    • Patience

      As the co-author of McCain-Feingold, McCain obviously wanted to prove the controversial and unpopular (as Republicans view it) law was workable. We all expected the usual barrage of 527 commercials towards the end that didn’t materialize. Again, this was McCain not wanting to rely on the loophole of McCain-Feingold. Playing too nice was a reaction to his 2000 bid against Bush in which McCain was falsely accused of fathering a black child (in reality, his adopted daughter Bridget), as well as his sense of honor.

      Were it not for the timing of the financial crisis, McCain may have been the victor. But his momentum was reversed and Republicans punished him for his bailout vote. There weren’t enough moderate voters to offset the right-wingers who stayed home Nov. 4. In spite of the historic element of having the first AA candidate, this election was, by necessity, about the economy. Where Bill Clinton was winningly effective when he “focused like a laser beam” in 1992, McCain’s message was muddled and the fluke of Joe the Plumber was the only thing that gave the message any definition and resonance. Too little too late.

      In spite of what many in the media are speculating, I think it’s too soon to ring the deathknell of the GOP. One reason why is because Obama won by running as a centrist. Another reason is because Prop. 8 in CA and similar gay marriage ballot issues passed in FL and AZ. This tells me that America is still culturally conservative. Turf wars among Republicans began before the primaries and continue now. They’ll have 4 years to battle and regroup. If Obama fails to deliver to the left-wing who regarded his campaign centrism as a cynical way to get elected, he’ll lose them. If he governs to the left he’ll lose centrists.

      Finally, against tremendous odds and with a less-than-perfect campaign, McCain didn’t finish as badly as he could’ve. This election was supposed to be a shoe-in for Democrats and yet it took a uniformly biased media, fraud, over $600,000,000, and the worst economy in 70 years for Obama to win.

  • Tristan

    Some stuff is just plan incompetence. Every three weeks during the Bush administration we’d have people dying from killer spinach or tomatoes or chinese toys. The Republican philosophy of limited government shouldn’t mean that you abdicate leadership on any issue that doesn’t involve blowing up terrorists.

  • fluffy bunny

    WOW WOW WOW WOW

    Comment by Tuppence411 | 2008-11-08 12:10:54

    I have been reading old newspaper archives from 2002 of Willard Mitt Romney’s “hostile take over” of the Massachusetts Governorship from Gov. Jane Swift. OMG… it is the EXACT same play book being used right now against Gov. Palin. Word for Word. Tactic for Tactic. Leaks from unnamed sources, sexism including critiques of her physical appearance, make-up and clothes, questions on her ability to govern and mother at the same time including “will you breastfeed in the Governor’s office?”, and ethical investigations. Next in the line up is drying up any and all political donations and fundraising ability and putting immense pressure on her from the GOP hierarchy. Watch out Sarah- Mitt’s a piece of sh!t. Of course, he could not accomplish it without traitors in the MSM. Those self loathing women news commentators. Check out this quote from Margaret Carlson:”Her ineptitude transcends gender. As a working mother, I am not going to defend her as a working mother”

    WOW WOW WOW

    That’s great work Tuppance, and please, please send this in an email to people who post main articles on this blog….it’s huge and important evidence that the Romneybots brought down McCain/Palin to clear the way for Mitt Romney in 2012. People need to know this…..

  • Lindsy

    Read this at another blog:

    Fox News boss Roger Ailes doesn’t want to spoil Barack Obama’s political honeymoon, we hear. A source says Ailes has told prime-time hosts Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity and Greta Van Susteren to lay off the President-elect – at least for a while. “We’re not going to have any personal attacks on Obama,” a network insider says. “The public has spoken – we must treat him with respect.”

    • oowawa

      Maybe Fox News can steal Tweety & Herr Olbermann away from MSNBC.

      In my house, the TV goes off and it stays off.

      R-E-S-P-E-C-T
      Fox sure showed Sarah some “respect,” didn’t they?

      Vomit.

    • Pennsylvania Red

      Uh, no…

      November 7th, 2008 1:42 PM Eastern

      THIS IS NOT TRUE
      by Greta Van Susteren

      THIS IS NOT TRUE- TV NEWSWER NEVER CHECKED WITH ME AND THE DAILY NEWS IS MAKING THIS UP !!

      I just copied the below from tvnewser.com. THIS IS A BIG FAT LIE.

      No one has ever told me to do or not do something at Fox or how to do something…I use my own judgment for my work and I show respect to politicians – win or lose. No one needs to tell me to be respectful – I am respectful (although I am also unafraid to call someone out on something.) I will continue to show respect.

      Incidentally, neither President Elect Obama campaign nor Senator McCain campaign ever complained to me that I got it wrong or was unfair and we made calls daily to both campaigns…I work very hard to be fair to both sides and I give equal opportunity to both sides and give the same type interviews to both sides…I will continue to do my work as I always have without influence from anyone….and with exercise of my best judgment…

      ….as an aside, I have not seen or spoken to Roger in 6 months!

      (I work in DC and when I am in NYC I am running around getting ready for ON THE RECORD…the only time I see Roger is when I schedule a lunch or a dinner with him and I have not done that in at least 6 months….this reminds me, however, that it is time for me to schedule a lunch with Roger because from time to time we like to catch up with each other.)

      http://gretawire.foxnews.com/2008/11/07/this-is-a-big-fat-lie/

  • Tuppence411

    I have been reading old newspaper archives from 2002 of Willard Mitt Romney’s “hostile take over” of the Massachusetts Governorship from Gov. Jane Swift. OMG… it is the EXACT same play book being used right now against Gov. Palin. Word for Word. Tactic for Tactic. Leaks from unnamed sources, sexism including critiques of her physical appearance, make-up and clothes, questions on her ability to govern and mother at the same time including “will you breastfeed in the Governor’s office?”, and ethical investigations. Next in the line up is drying up any and all political donations and fundraising ability and putting immense pressure on her from the GOP hierarchy. Watch out Sarah- Mitt’s a piece of sh!t. Of course, he could not accomplish it without traitors in the MSM. Those self loathing women news commentators. Check out this quote from Margaret Carlson:”Her ineptitude transcends gender. As a working mother, I am not going to defend her as a working mother”

    • oowawa

      Sarah is fighting back. In the headline story on Yahoo she is quoted as saying in response to the “Africa” fiasco on Fox:

      That’s cruel. It’s mean-spirited. It’s immature. It’s unprofessional and those guys are jerks if they came away with it, taking things out of context, and then tried to spread something on national news. It’s not fair and it’s not right.

      Yes indeed Tuppence, I also sense Romney’s minions are behind this witch hunt.

      • rickrickrick

        Take a moment and send some love to Sarah Palin.

        http://www.gov.state.ak.us/govmail.php

        Dear Gov. Palin:

        There are moments in our lifes that define us as individuals. And there are moments that define us as a country.
        Gov. Palin you are one of those defining moments.

        Thank you for everything you did for the Republican Party and the Presidential race. You are the face of courage, the voice of patriots, and the humbled will of determination.

        You exceeded every expectation placed in front of you never once giving up or giving in. I wish you continued success and I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers.

        I am forever indebted to your service to this country.

        • Geo

          I will never ever forget Palin’s speech at the convention. I have have never seen a more electrifying person with the exception of Reagan, JFK, and MLK speeches. It was that good.

          She obliterated Obama and spread his Marxist guts all over the stage.

          But I am biased and not ashamed to admit it.

          • Lindsy

            I will never forget it either. Unfortunately, since she suffered defeat I’m not sure we will ever get to see just how good she really is.

            I’m thoroughly convinced that Obama will get 8 years as President. And by 2016 the GOP will have forgotten about Palin. We will be firmly liberals by then I’m afraid.

            • Geo

              Obama is vulnerable. It is McCain who suffered defeat. Palin is golden. She is such a force that both parties are scared shitless over her.

              You can’t teach what she has. She magic like Joan of Arc and Elvis wrapped in velvet.

              OK I am getting carried away.

              • Pennsylvania Red

                She definitely had star power and charisma with the added bonus that she knows how to GOVERN.

                I attended a McCain rally in PA the Sunday before the GE, if Palin would have been there they would have had to change to a much larger venue.

          • Pennsylvania Red

            And the MSM crew were so impressed their 0b0t-lust disappeared for just one night.

            Remember the rave reviews she got from the talking heads? (that night)

            then the evisceration began.

        • oowawa

          Good letter rickrick. I will send a message with the phrase

          Nolite te Bastardes Carborundum

          I’m sure she knows she is loved.

    • fluffy bunny

      DAMN, can you get this info to Larry or Susan or the RRRAmy?

      It would be worthy of an independent post.

      Slam dunk evidence that the Romneybots are against the attacks on Palin.

  • http://mccaindemocrats.wordpress.com/ 30yrdem

    The Collapse of the GOP »
    What was it McCain said? Say it enough and it becomes the truth.

  • John Smith

    I knew in 2004 that it was just matter of time before Bush would destroy the republican party. I just did not think he would do it to the point that people would elect an even bigger fool as POTUS. After 9/11 Bush hand a chance, once in a century chance, to put America on a solid footing to energy independence with it averting some of the economical crisis that we have witnessed. But he listened, do to his lack of any mental activity, to the fringes of the republican party and decided to go to war instead.

    Now it is the democratic turn to do the same thing. Obama will manage to destroy the DNC but even more effectively. People backing Bush were not expecting anything significant out of him. They just wanted to get rid of the Clinton era and did not like Gore. However, BO promised the moon to his followers and they expect him to deliver on all the promises. Did you notice how quite the crowed were when he told them that they can’t have the things he told them they can have. I guess the new slogan should be “YES WE CAN. JUST NOT NOW”. The financial crisis that we are now in won’t be resolved for years to come. Many of his supporters will find that “YES WE CAN” was nothing more then some sick joke at which point he will take the democratic party with him.

    I hope at this point an Independent will emerge for President who is not beholden to any party.

    • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

      Can you explain what Bush did to F Up energy independence?

      • John Smith

        He could have asked for anything at that point. He could have told people that we can’t produce SUVs and will have to drill off shore and build Nuke Plants. What ever he wanted congress would have given it to him. But he decided to start a war instead.

        Energy independence is possible but we have so much special interest in Washington that nobody can get it done. Right after 9/11 special interest was dead and the country looked for a way forward and we got 2 wars instead.

        • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

          I am sorry that I think you are wrong. My family is in the oil business. For 25 years we have watched while the crazy environmentalist wing nuts refused to let any drilling go on in America. I have literally watched people who know nothing about oil blame the GOP for the oil crises when there is no party to blame but the Dems. No one can argue this with me. I know it. I have also listened to the sheer crap and nonsense that the war in Iraq is about oil. Only a moron thinks that. This country is so uneducated about energy and WHY were are dependent on foreign oil. It’s really easy. We have our own, we should drill it. End of story. As for forcing people to stop making SUVs, that gets into compromising personal freedoms for me. Sorry. It’s America. I find it VILE that WA State has this BS about how much people can drive. OPEC controls oil and production. Period. Bush has nothing to do with it. And by the way, Ovomit will probably do nothing but drive oil prices through the roof. It’s a GLOBAL issue that we can only get out of if we make our own. And for the green freaks who think that people have been “hiding” the alternative sources from them…give me a break. The people who spend the MOST money on developing alternative energy sources are people like Exxon Mobile, etc. BILLIONS of Dollars of their profits go right back to R&D for new sources. Yes, the people the libbys vilify for making money actually put that money back. It will be years until we have another viable energy source. But we can watch OVomit destroy any chance at lower oil and gas prices we might have had. Blaming Bush is silly.

        • fluffy bunny

          He could have stressed, like McCain has throughout this election cycle, that sending $700 billion dollars to people like the Sauds, the Putins, and the Chavez’s of the world is a terrible idea. If he had put it that way, I think the American people would have responded.

          Instead we got: looking into PootyPoot’s soul, holding hands with Saudi princes, and complete befuddlement in Latin America.

          Bush could have done many things on the domestic energy front, but instead he kept kissing Saudi ass.

          • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

            Again, wrong. I remember a few months ago when Oil was at its highest thinking how sad it was that the President of the US, Bush, had to go to the Saudis and BEG them to increase production and help lower oil prices. ONE MORE TIME…the DEMS ARE TO BLAME. If we had drilled our OWN oil, and BUILT REFINERIES, 25 years ago we wouldn’t BE having this discussion. NONE of this is Bush’s fault. The Dems have blocked drilling in EVERY single oil rich state in this country, as well as offshore. THE DEMS. The tired old Bush blame game is BS. If anyone isn’t smart enough to know that our dependency on foreign oil is the largest wealth transfer in history then it’s their fault. This has been beaten into people’s heads and they still whine about their precious beaches. You can’t have it both ways. Either pay for high priced gas – and the whiners should live in Europe where it’s twice what we pay – or get off the environmental high horse and let us drill. PERIOD.

            • Docelder

              drilled our OWN oil, and BUILT REFINERIES, 25 years ago

              And to add to that… every barrel of oil we produce on U.S. soil… every natural resource we use at home really… is that much more revenue that filters through our economy. This is the biggest thing almost nobody is talking about. So what if we can’t become totally energy dependent by doing everything we can at home. We can still do what we can and every bit will help. Or, at least it would have helped.

            • fluffy bunny

              I know the history. It was Bill Clinton who signed the legislation putting ANWR off limits, after all.

              It was the democrats who passed the oil shale development moratorium once they took congress in 2006.

              I know all of that, and know it well. My criticism of Bush stems from the fact that after 9/11 he had the opportunity to use the bully pulpit to put this issue in front of the American people, and keep it there for as long as required to get people to wake up.

              It is a huge national security and national economic issue. It is perhaps the most important issue of our time. Instead Bush chose to not fight…he chose to go along with Putin and the Sauds to get along.

              My husband is a military pilot who spent lots of time in Saudi Arabia and now in other lovely places over there. The democrats started this trend toward greater energy dependence, but Bush didn’t reverse it. 9/11 gave him the perfect opportunity to do so, and he squandered the opportunity.

              • Strawberrybitch

                Greater energy dependence? Ummm, no. Does Al Gore mean anything to you? We had electric Toyota Rav 4s and Honda Civics under Clinton (google up the movie WHO Killed The Electric Car), Carter had solar panels installed on the White House. Reagen had them pulled off. Besides from what I understand from having a father who worked in the oil business and in Alaska as an engineer, the type of crude pulled out of the ground up there is not the same as we buy from South America and the middle east. Sweet crude vs. whatever else there is.

                • fluffy bunny

                  Oh yeah, I know all about Al Gore and his 2,000 a month electric bill, and his flying all over the world on private jets.

                  And his obstructionism to domestic energy production via coal, domestic oil, and nuclear.

                  Al Gore has lead to our having increased energy dependence on hostile foreing countries.

            • fluffy bunny

              And now, the American people just voted overwhelmingly to reward the democrats for their treachery on this energy issue.

              McCain and Palin owned this issue. McCain knows a ton about nuclear energy, and Palin knows a ton about domestic oil and natural gas.

              But the American people were so high on Hopium that they chose to go down the path to Europe level gas prices and rolling blackouts.

              I’ve got no rational explanation, honestly.

              • Strawberrybitch

                Oil is not the answer. Look, if your cell phone can now identify a song you hear on the radio, and link you up so that you can download it and pay for it, do you honestly think we have aren’t capable of developeing batteries that can run a car? Give me a break. Again watch the movie Who Killed the Electric Car. The only reason we don’t have solar powered cars is because someone doesn’t want us to have them….hmmmm who could that be?

                • imustprotest

                  I saw that movie. The electric car EV 1 was really amazing and they killed it. Hey Strawberry, why did you change your name?

                • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

                  The explanation of this is way long, but we’re not getting off oil any time soon. And, again, it’s the Dems who did it. I’m unclear on how what the Dems did is YET AGAIN Bush’s fault. Sigh. I just don’t get it. But everyone can sit around playing the little blame Bush game and we’re still in the same place. Oil. And OVomit isn’t going to do a damned thing about it. Why would he? The people we are dependent on like Chavez, etc. are his cherished idols and friends. He’s going to get oil jacked up way more.

                  By the way, there are certain factors that have to do with oil prices NO ONE can control. Like the weather, hurricanes, refinery outages, etc. I have literally watched oil go up because a refinery in Nigeria blew up, or because Venezuela was pissed at us, and somehow the liberals came back with blaming Bush. It’s getting old. I’m really glad it will finally be “blame Obama.”

    • sandshark222

      This is what I mean about the blindfolded Bush bashing. Disagree with the man on policy, that’s fine – but yet I feel you have nothing to back it up.

      Oh, and is name calling really needed to get your point across?

      • John Smith

        I was not bashing Bush. He did that to him self with great effect. They guy really screwed up. Even the republicans think that he did and that is why they stayed home.

  • http://www.hillaryorbust.com Hillary or Bust

    I believe the pendulum swings back and forth, and right now the pendulum has swung a bit too far to the left.

    Never fear, it will swing back to the right. I am actually more concerned about it swinging TOO FAR over to the right in reaction to the far left swing it’s on now.

    • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

      If America survives, the part that isn’t dead already, I think people will welcome some decency in this country.

      And the DNC needs to GO.

      • eriezindian

        Love that word ‘decency’. That is what we need. I can’t believe I am going to miss Bush, but it’s true. Guess I am headed for Indie because I cannot remain a Dem.

  • oowawa

    The Collapse of the GOP

    Funny–two years ago I would have greeted this headline with high-fives all around.

    Now I think I would be happier to see this: “The Collapse of the Democratic Party,” and absolutely ecstatic to see this: “The Collapse of the DNC.”

    It’s hard not to agree with the line from “Romeo & Juliet”:

    “A plague o’ both your houses.”

  • http://www.anvp.typepad.com/soldier4hillary soldier4hillary

    Can someone tell me what the hell is the “Office of the President Elect”. Is this a new government office? Because I see it ends in @gov

  • TMendez

    I think that the constant drum beat of Obama’s inevitability led many Repubicans to stay home. I know many who thought that their vote wouldn’t matter because Obama would win.

    • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

      I live in CA. I almost did the same thing – stayed home. My vote didn’t count a crap. But I ended up being in line at 6:30 am., taking a beating from the OVomit freaks in line who were RAGING about McCain and Palin, voted and prayed. It meant nothing, but it felt good to do it.

      • Strawberrybitch

        Hey at least you’ve got your integrity. Those folks who voted for Barky (esp. the Gay and Lesbian community and young women) are all going to feel like the chick at the night club who fell for the slick, sweet talker, took him home, did some stuff she really didn’t want to do, only to wake up the next morning, alone, feeling used and dirty. No note, no good bye, no call me later and no used condom or condom wrapper anywhere to be found.

        • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

          ROFLMAO…Yup. I know Dems who are already WTF? The ones who thought the free health care would start January 20. The ones who thought OVomit would bring some interesting people to his cabinet. Rahm Emanuel is getting big sighs from my libby pals. The gays and lesbians who voted for him in CA got thanks from the AA community by Prop 8 passing. Wow. Great analysis. Wonder how long the disillusionment will take to be complete.

        • oowawa

          No note, no good bye, no call me later and no used condom or condom wrapper anywhere to be found.

          Strawberry, this is one of the funniest analogies I’ve read in a long time. Poetry!

    • Geo

      I think that the constant drum beat of Obama’s inevitability led many Repubicans to stay home. I know many who thought that their vote wouldn’t matter because Obama would win.

      It is called a psy-op. That is what the media did to us. I could not slap enough people out of their stupor. PUMAS helped me stay sane during the process. They fought hard because they got a heads up at Obama’s corruption during the primary.

      I hope we can get organized and take our country back.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    “The Collapse of the GOP?” I think that’s a joke compared to “The Corruption and Criminal Acts of the DNC.” Why don’t we do a thread about the Dem party, how they themselves had the shame to bring us OVomit and what they can do to clean out the most corrupt, vile, dirty, thieving, cheating Political Machine in the history of America. At this moment all I can say is that I am thrilled to call myself a Republican because when this country is finally dead and gone we can blame the Dems for OVomit. Bush looks like the best President in history compared to OVomit now and it’s only going to get worse until the flag, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, etc. are all burned and the US Hussein Banana Republic is complete. Thanks Dems.

    • baby_puppy

      You repubs didn’t think the Constitution and Declaration were important enough to fight for and GOTV. You stayed home or didn’t vote for McCain by the millions!

      • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

        1) You don’t know how much of OVomit’s “win” was fraud. We will never know.

        2) I hardly think it’s the same thing. The GOP didn’t bring the coffin nail of America to the table, spend 1 Billion Dollars to buy the election, pervert the media, boot out their own woman HRC, etc. NONE OF THAT is from the GOP.

        3) One more TIME…Let’s have a thread about what the DNC is going to do to CLEAN UP the mess.

        • Strawberrybitch

          I thought it was fraud at first, but talking to my fellow democrats, it was just anti-Bush. You should see those folks now…talk about buyers remorse. It is hitting home that the time to act was when Hillary was running, not when Barky ran against McCain. They know they fucked up by supporting this dupe. And I’ve actually been enjoying myself the past couple of days watching Barky scramble around for a plan of action and turning to Bill and Hill’s old gang. JOHN KERRY AS SEC.OF STATE? Rahm Emmanual? This is just too sweet for words. Hopey changey, my 41 year old, white, not so bitter ass. If there wasn’t so much at stake, I’d be openly taunting my party…oh wait, I have been…

          • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

            I agree about the Dems coming out in full force for OVomit. But these are the same Dems that stood by and watched him steal Hillary’s nomination. So they get what they deserve.

            • workingclass artist

              I think it’s too early to understand yet… frankly…As to the demise of the GOP…I think Prop 8 proved that wrong.
              I think GOP is just going through an idealogical and demographic shift…Sort of a changing of the guard kinda thingy…
              The two parties mirror each other and in our system they both reflect and balance in reaction to trends and stresses…

  • Lisa-NY

    I remember how the media back in the 80′s bashed Reagan. But, at least the media was more fair . The times have changed and now the elitist left have taken over the media and are out to completely destroy the Republican party. That’s just the truth.
    Love or Loathe Bush , but the media has trashed him badly, more so than is needed. Agree or disagree , I feel my country is safer since he has been President. Sorry but I will never forget 9/ll. I hope history proves to see him in a better light than what the MSM wants us to see of him now.
    They won’t kill the Republican Party. The true conservatives will rally in the end and take it back .

    • sandshark222

      Problem is – so many people HAVE forgotten 9/11. They forgot because we have been SAFE. The past 7 years of no attacks have lulled people into a false sense of security.

      Maybe that’s one good thing we can credit Bush for, is keeping us safe. Maybe he did too good of a job on that, and it worked against the GOP.

      • http://www.hillaryorbust.com Hillary or Bust

        Damn right.

        I would not be surprised if we got attacked during Obama’s term.

        • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

          That’s a given. And why I want to move. There is NO question that we will have more than likely a nuclear ground attack.

      • workingclass artist

        I am no fan of Shrub…But I will give him that…

      • http://noquarter foxyladi14

        he also has been warning about freddie and fannie since 2001
        no one listened.
        mac tried to get legislation passed in 06.this entire melt down could have been prevented..

  • sandshark222

    Now that we’ve seen the media destroy Hillary and Palin the way they did, or even McCain for that matter; all to get their ‘Messiah’ elected, does anyone think it’s at all possible that they may to some extent treated President Bush a tad bit unfairly?

    Don’t get me wrong, the president has done a lot of things I disagree with. It just seems like the media spins EVERYTHING he does as wrong. I don’t care who, no president does EVERY SINGLE THING wrong.

    When the republicans went after Bill Clinton in the late 90′s, they went for the throat. Now imagine if the media had been attacking Bill the way that they do Bush. I wonder if the public perception of Bill would have suffered.

    I’m not here saying Bush is great and all that, I’m just wondering if he’s not as bad as they say. I mean, they even blamed a hurricane on the guy, despite his warnings to the then democratic governor.

    The more I see the media bash Bush the more I start to feel bad for the guy. Maybe after this election I just hate the media. Who knows.

    I just can’t help but wonder….?

    • Dora Ratquila

      The media was meaner towards Bill Clinton and Hillary. They are still giving W the kid-glove treatment as if he is some overgrown retarded child. Anyway, I think it’s wishful thinking to say that the GOP has collapsed. That’s what these so-called pundits have also said about the Democratic Party at the height of Bush’s reign. The needle can swing back to the extreme right anytime if the new party in power does not watch it.

      • Geo

        The media was meaner towards Bill Clinton and Hillary.

        You can’t be serious. Palin has received the most ruthless, jaw dropping, non-stop, media abuse that has ever been unleashed on single individual since the invention of movable type.

        • trixta

          Palin got a taste of what it is to be a Clinton, since the Clintons have had this kind of vicious treatment for over 20 years. I’m just saying . . .

          But again, I support Palin and think she is great, although I disagree with her ideologically.

    • Pennsylvania Red

      Yes I do think the media was anti-Bush.

      And that may have explained why some – (a lot?) of his behavior became tinged with defensiveness.

      I’m a Republican, I don’t agree with everything “W” did however I did feel safe with him as POTUS.
      After 9/11 happened, I also had the feeling that we would have been secure with Al Gore at the helm.

      If there’s one good thing that came out of this election cycle, it’s that more people are hip to the MSM agenda and biased presentation.

      • baby_puppy

        McCain should have let W campaign for him. It would have brought in more of the base because they still love the guy and one cannot pretend he’s not the POTUS. McCain listened to the bloggers way too much and not the core Repubs; his fellow senators and congressmen. Then with Sarah or Jndal he still would have brought in us PUMAs. As it is those who he was trying to get with Sarah, most of them stayed home anyway.

        • csam

          Palin was not picked to draw in PUMAs; she was chosen to solidify the social conservatives and the polls showed she did her job. 2% more evangelicals voted for McCain than they did in 2004. It was the fiscal conservatives who stayed home and that was due to the bailout; McCain failed them by voting for it and once he did that, there was no longer a distinction between him and Obama.

          • Geo

            YES You are quite right. Many have made the mistake of thinking they picked Palin to steal PUMAS. That is not the case. But she did pull a few PUMAS.

            She is the bomb as far as I am concerned.

      • trixta

        PLeeeeaze! The media has been kind to GWB! He’s been a total disaster and gets NO sympathy from me, especially since he stole FL in 2000 and OH in 2004.

        In my view, GWB and BO are equally odious — I reject them both! Two sides of the same neo-fascist coin.

    • http://www.hillaryorbust.com Hillary or Bust

      I am not a fan of Bush but I think EVERYONE has been way too harsh on him.

      People seem to forget we were attacked on 9/11. Oh, wait, that’s right, far left conspiracy theorists believe that it was Bush and Cheney who attacked us, not real terrorists.

      In this kind of nonsensical hate-filled environment, Bush could have given us universal health care and stopped global warming and someone would have blamed him for creating global warming in the first place.

      • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

        Did you read the article about US Soldiers removing 550 metric tons of URANIUM from Iraq? I guess the left wing libbys still think Saddam was a great guy and wasn’t over there building bombs. Of COURSE we did the right thing taking out his nuclear play toys.

        • Geo

          No I was consumed with the MSM investigative reporting on whether Palin came to the door with a towel or not.

          No time for Nuclear weapons in the hands of an insane dictator.

        • Strawberrybitch

          You’d better check your sources on that uranium. As far as I can tell it was old and we already knew about it. And I don’t think it was weapons grade. I’m much more concerned over the shit left lying around the former USSR that anybody can’t just pick up and use in dirty bombs.

  • SJ

    Bush may have caused some of this lost, but lets all face it McCain failed. He ran a rather tame, am Mr.nice guy campaign and that did not work.

    I believe the Republicans underestimated Obama and felt that no way would white support a black man over McCain for President, so they played fast and loose with this election.

    They should of took notice when Obama beat Hillary that he was popular, they should of looked at who Obama was targeting, McCain knew Obama had 98% of the black vote,he knew where the highly concentrated black populated areas were, and he did nothing to build the surrounding areas to damper Obama’s support.

    McCain did nothing to push that Obama would not be good for this country he came of message and the first bit of crying foul from the Obama camp and the media, Mc Cain did not convince anyone that Obama was dangerous it was only when Palin started to say word like”socialists”, that people started to think about it.

    Mc Cain stopped the Rev Wright message, man there were so many things out there on Obama, MC Cain used nothing, he stopped all of that, he did not have to do it but there are 527 groups other people, that could of pushed this message, no McCain wanted to win on gentleman politics and he lost the race because of that, if he had no heart for this fight he should of not entered the game.

    It’s politics the public if they have to have faith in you, have to see that you can give as good as you can take, McCain ran a old grandpa game against a young “mutt” that was willing to do anything because he wanted it more.

    • Pennsylvania Red

      SJ I think you’re one of the posters I called a troll yesterday.

      If that is the case, I apologize.

      • SJ

        No Problem Penn, I did notice someone with the same SJ name posting for Obama, I guess they do that at time for fun.

        • Pennsylvania Red

          OK well that explains it.

          help me jesus

    • baby_puppy

      Yep. McCain was afraid of the media and standing in the way of history. Kerry had the nerve ot get on tv last Sunday and accuse McCain’s campaign of running a decisive campaign of historical proportions anyway.

      And when McCain had to campaign for Obama in that town hall – people in my neighborhood were talking about that. It had an impact. Too nice and not fighting back. Sure recipe for losing against the Chicago thug machine.

      I remember the conservative talk shows complaining about his demeanor, but he didn’t listen.

      • fluffy bunny

        Yes, he did listen. His demeanor was back to his normal self for the 3rd debate.

        I cannot for the life of me understand what he was trying to do in that 2nd debate. I listened to it on the radio and was just horrified. He was walking on eggshells, and talking to those people like he was their Sunday School teacher or something.

        Yeah, the questions were boring, and Brokaw has really gone down hill, etc. But Obama looked lousy in that format, and several of the questions were ones that McCain should have hit out of the park because he had particular expertise on them….he has worked for years on entitlement programs and the coming fiscal bomb, but he just mouthed platitudes the whole time.

        That debate was a disaster, as was the decision to suspend the campaign because of Henry Paulson’s manufactured NEW GREAT DEPRESSION.

        Not that I have any faith in Bush’s being able to handle it, but it was 6 weeks out from the election. McCain got a call from the fiscal conservative house republicans that Bush wasn’t even letting them participate in negotiations, so he went back to get them in the door. But he should have then voted against the stupid bailout…

        The Senate/House negotiators gave him the perfect opening to do so when they added 150 billion dollars in pork to the original 700 billion proposal. He could have said he was voting against it because of the pork and sat down.

    • ritamary

      Obama did not beat Hillary.

      • SJ

        Well I don’t know if he beat Hillary or not but she did not win and that is a fact

        • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

          Yes she did win.

          • imustprotest

            Yes she did. Obama was an illegitimate “nominee”.

  • jbjd

    Putting together voting stats in this way is so useful for those of us who spend so much of our time debunking the ‘myth’ being spun out of this election.

  • http://www.anvp.typepad.com soldier4hillary

    Well, I changed my party affiliation from Democratic to Republican and really could care less about some of the crap people threw my way. I rather be in the Republican party than to be considered expendable and worthless as a woman, and no more than another “black voter” in the Democratic.

    If they can do what they did to a former first lady, presidential candidate and senator, why would anyone beleive they would not do it to you? You cant fight the Democratic party from within because you cant find one member with a spine that can stand up and speak out AGAINST the majority. There actions read like a B movie. They use “your racist” for every damn thing to keep people from asking questions. Because no one likes that label or want to be considered that way.

    Please. A strong wind could destroy there foundation. The problem is and what went wrong in this election is that people gave a shit about what the media was doing to set the theme on racism. People were oh so scared that they would be made out to be something there not.

    These people were willing to call entire states or counties “racist”. The individuals that elected them. Sold them out just to be part of the “team”. Nothing pisses me off more than weak people with group think mentality.

    Do you honestly believe the Democratic party will have a epiphany and realize they trashed there own base,threw women to the side, and just for good measure, call you racist.

    Yeah right. Whatever

    • jbjd

      s4h, please, could you email me at twice my initials at gm ASAP? I need to run an idea by you (to see whether you salute…).

      • http://www.anvp.typepad.com/soldier4hillary soldier4hillary

        I screwed your email up. Just leave a comment on my blog and I will get your email address.

    • johninca

      You can’t reason with people whose only thought is “gimme my handout, gimme my check, gimme my condom, gimme my free college and free health care, gimme my free abortion and if you don’t like it go to hell.”

      • stodgie

        johninca, i don’t think we will have to reason with them. the dems are going to screw them just like they have eveyone else. they figure they have nowhere else to go. sound familiar! we can already see that in barry’s choices.

    • hadenough

      Well, I changed my party affiliation from Democratic to Republican and really could care less about some of the crap people threw my way.

      Now that’s walking the talk. For those of us not as strong as soldier4hillary we can register independent or whatever your state allows. We must look outside the democrat box. Check who your local repub, dem and third party elected officials and candidates are. If your reps are pelosi or cornyn it does not matter. Contact them all and let them know what’s important to you. If you don’t tell them they don’t know.

      When the oborg scream in your face and call you racist they are trying to scare you away from the political process. DO NOT GIVE UP. That’s what want. This is our country, our economy, our future, if we don’t fight for it who will?

    • http://www.hillaryorbust.com Hillary or Bust

      I may re-register as Republican NOT because I want to become Republican, but so I can vote for Sarah Palin in the GOP presidential primaries in a few years.

      Here in California, the Democrats have open primaries (meaning you can vote in them if you are not affiliated) but the Republicans have a closed primary.

      So those who want to support Sarah Palin in 2012 may well considering registering Republican, if just to be able to vote for her in the primaries.

      • csam

        You’re absolutely right. I hear that some of the changes that the RNC is considering is to make all states closed primaries so they’re not stuck with a moderate candidate in the general election.

    • fluffy bunny

      The huge problem is that the American electorate just rewarded the democrat party for exactly that behavior. Because of that, I expect to see more of it rather than less.

      Will it eventually work to turn off voters? I honestly thought the last 12 months of their crap would cause them to lose, and instead they won big in the presidential, house, and senate races.

      It’s tragic.

    • trixta

      You are brave! I will re-register as an Independent—but I may very well vote for Palin again. The Pod Dems find inspiration in misogyny and race-bating. My husband and I are done with this disgrace of a Party!

      No Way, No How, NObama 2012!

  • http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/ Not Your sweetie

    I wished for so long that W takes his party down with him…Be careful of what you wish for…
    Also – Obama & media – love or shotgun wedding?
    http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2008/11/08/media-obama-love-or-shotgun-weddin/

  • csam

    I have no doubt that Romney will run again, but most conservatives see him as a RINO, as he has changed his position way too many times and it’s all on record. But, he’ll run, as will Huckabee and I think Rick Perry will run, too.

    Jindal was on the Laura Ingraham radio show yesterday and he stated that the current leadership in the GOP has to go and it’s time for conservative outsiders to lead. He also suggested that we should look to Alaska and Louisiana for the solutions to the party. I thought that was an interesting comment and it made me wonder if he and Palin are already forming some kind of alliance. ;)

    • johninca

      I believe so, and it certainly would be an improvement over the status quo.

    • http://www.johnmccain.com Michele (not the nasty one)

      You know, Sarah Palin has my interest and when Bobby Jindal was named as a possible McCain VP, he got my interest also. Both are governors so will have executive experience, both appear to be popular in their states and both are YOUNG. I have nothing against age. I gladly voted for John McCain and am saddened that our country lost out in this past election. I think as the Republican party looks to the future and the rebuilding of the party, they would be wise to look to these new, refreshing faces.

      I am an independent and can’t see myself voting for a Democratic ticket for a while or at least until there is some house cleaning; still feels icky to me. So I am looking to the Republican party to come through with some (dare I say it?) “Hope and Change”!

      • Lark

        The most important thing the Republicans need to do is to solve their problem with illegal immigrants coming from Mexico and to develop a strategy to deal with Mexico as a common partner in an America that sees itself through the lens of its resources. The Republicans need to deal with Catholism also. They need to embrace the Catholic tradition of morality and not reject them as a cultish type of religion anathema to Protestant faith. Once those two things are taken care off then the party will be able to build a platform that will allow growth in every area of our society. Immigrants and Catholics need to be brought in as part of a moral resolution to our social compact.

        • stodgie

          mexico? well you have some good points. but in all our interests, something needs to be done about immigration. if the dims run something through that proves to be unpopular with the conservative side of the country, i think you’ll find our dim dems have done it for us. we need to come to an agreement with the mexican government about border control. i agree the repubs need to embrace catholicism.

        • workingclass artist

          Hmmmm…Part of the problem there Lark is that Pesky Pope keeps reminding the other churches that the RCC is the “Mother” Church…Aaaaand protestant Preachers don’t like that. They see it as a lack of respect or validation by the Vatican. Whereas the Vatican keeps trying to have ecumenical relations with the other churches but theologically speaking…There are some things the RCC cannot compromise on and the Protestant Denominations are uneasy with the History. The Reformation was as much Political as it was “Theological” and there has been much twisted history that is still perpetuated in the seminaries.
          It boils down to this fundamental…
          The RCC will acknowledge certain theological arguments but will not compromise on theological errors….Catholic Doctrine is based on equal weight given to Tradition…Philosophical Reasoning…and Interpretation of Biblical Teaching.
          One fundamental theological principle for Catholics is the Sacraments…Something that is foreign to protestants. Why? Because Catholics have always held the belief that Christianity evolved in customs and Philosophy long before the coordination and publication of the synoptic gospels much like Judaism before the Laws of Moses were codified ( there were customs and traditions that held weight )
          There has been progress…But until Protestants become more educated as to the early history of the Church and how politics not just Theology played a role in the schism…It is a tough ( sigh ) very tough road to trudge….imho
          Truth be told there has been much more progress made between Judaism and Catholics…

    • Tuppence411

      It is not a concidence that both Palin and Jindal have been attacked for their religious beliefs.

      Which I find so odd, since neither of them have shown any prepense in the least little bit to legislate from that position. They live their personal lives according to their religious values, but they don’t impose it on others thru their governing.

      Compare that to Reagan. The best example was the AIDS crisis in the 1980′s. He refused to acknowledge it, he wouldn’t fund research to understand it and therefore prevent it. His personal beliefs of homophobia or sin or whatever clouded his ability to address a crises.

      Yet according to some voices in the GOP- I am suppose to fear Palin, but revere Reagan. I don’t think so! The GOP is as screwed up as the DNC. Both are having identity crises.

      • KFaye

        Hopefully Palin and Jindal will be able to find a way to form a strong alliance behind the scenes because the Romney faction will try to pit them against each other. Adding Huckabee to the alliance would also help.

        From the Rasmussen poll:

        # 64 percent of Republicans say Palin is their top choice for the GOP 2012 presidential nominee.

        # 12 percent of Republicans say Mike Huckabee is their top choice for the GOP 2012 presidential nominee.

        # 11 percent of Republicans say Mitt Romney is their top choice for the GOP 2012 presidential nominee.

        • KFaye

          More evidence the Romney crowd are the anti-Palin Republicans. 8 + 3 = 11

          Other results of the poll:

          # 91 percent of Republicans have a favorable view of Palin.

          # 65 percent of Republicans have a very favorable view of Palin.

          # 8 percent of Republicans have an unfavorable view of Palin.

          # 3 percent of Republicans have a very unfavorable view of Palin.

          • Geo

            To me Sarah Palin is the reincarnation of Joan of Arc. I am serious.

            • workingclass artist

              Hmmmm….Geo I assume and or hope that you are speaking metaphorically…As a Catholic implying reincarnation of a venerable Catholic Saint/Martyr is offensive…As my faith teaches that St. Joan by virtue f her faith and service to God is in happy communion….And her life is to be seen as a venerable example of a unique and worthy christian soul…No Recycling…chuckle…
              Now metapohrically speaking…I see a valiant quality to Gov. Palin…But sorry…Just not in the same league with The Patron Saint of France…Few are…imho

            • babinuta48

              very nice comment. I am Independent and I will love to see Sarah running in 2012. She has 2 years to get very ready, and Her Jindal will be a great couple to run for Presidency in 2012. Since Hillary won I choose someone we can trust and be sure, that She will deliver. Next 2 years will be very important for Her, also I believe, that Her children will compnsite from just watching and studying with Their Mother. I wonder what Sarah husband think about, after all it is not just to Sarah , but to both of them.Remember movie about woman as President of USA.??? It was great.

      • xax

        Yeah. Reagan on the surface is ok. Not a fan, but he did some good things (Berlin for example) But they really need to let him go.

        Palin and Jidal are the new lifeblood of the GOP. If more young, moderate conservatives (NOT neo cons) pop up over the next four years they can save the Republican party. The establishment Republicans need to go.

        And Romney needs to just hang it up.

    • baby_puppy

      Jindal probably would have been the better choice (although I love Palin). I didn’t know about Jindal until after the fact when I saw him give the presser in Louisiana during the storm.

      Jindal would have captured the minority vote (besides AA) and was from a southern state. Couldn’t ask for much more.

    • waldenpond

      That’s too bad. I just won’t vote for a Republican that is extreme on social issues. I just don’t go for legislating bigotry.

      The far-right is trying to grab what little power is left by snagging whatever committee positions they can. The moderate Republicans thing the hard-righters are making a mistake and will lose more voters. The mods think the Repubs can’t win with only the base and no middle.

      I have been successful at finding moderate Repubs as they have their own groups. I will be supporting individual mods and continue to ignore the top of the ticket. Just have to wait for 2012 to see what mood the country is in, the economy will have improved by then….

    • Geo

      Please God make it so.

  • politicsIsDirty

    How about the way the black population has voted?

    Could one say that racial discrimination was at its best among the blacks? If it was a white candidate running against McCain, could the black people showed so much enthusiasm?

    Can we safely say that the blacks showed racism as well against McCain?

    • knotfourhymn

      Dr. King’s wish will actually come true in regards to Senator Obama: his actions as POTUS over the next few years will allow him to be judged by the content of his character.

      • Lauraks

        Apt analysis

      • Strawberrybitch

        Yup, and I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes for all the Stoly in Russia right now, or all the stocks on Wall Steet, or all the tax breaks on the top 1%. He has bitten off waaaaaaaaay more than he can chew and he knows it. Let’s just see how may more former Clinton advisors he snaps up. He’s running home to momma.

      • Betty Lou

        To not understand the real bigotry African Americans, and others, such as the LGBT, face, is to be at tactical disadvantage.

        And to exploit in the way Rove, and yes, Obama did, is to lose.

      • trixta

        We tried having him judged by the content of his character, but the Ozomies only wanted us to judge him on the color of his skin (“the first black president,” etc.). Everything about this guy is based on a leap of faith. (I’m 99% atheist + 1% agnostic.)

    • stodgie

      i’ll agree with your there. the aa’s were racist in their voting. i have sympathy for indiviual aa’s who speak their minds and do so with sincereity. some of the best analysis i have seen is often by aa’s. but the obot group who mindlessly opposed hillary and bill, i can’t and won’t ever forgive.

  • Mary Lou

    I just looked at a picture of Obama standing at his President Elect podium and I burst out laughing. If there was ever a time to see life as a cosmic joke, this is it.
    America is facing our biggest financial crisis in 50 years – we are engaged in two wars – and we have a community organizer/serial campaigner who doesn’t have a clue in charge of our well being as a country.
    All because the corporate media decided there was big money in the Obama Brand.
    Now I’m crying…

    • Pennsylvania Red

      Mary Lou, I experienced the same sequence of emotion.

      When I saw him behind the podium with that Kinko’s created placard, I just yelled CLOWN! at the TV.

      But this morning I’m crying because I don’t understand what happened to the land of the free and the home of the brave.

      • workingclass artist

        Good article Rev. Amy. I found this at TD blog…
        http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/11/08/first-amendment-whats-that/
        I think the GOP will do some souls searching which isn’t always a bad thing…
        This video…should help most folks get back to basics…imho…
        I’m looking forward to seeing how things develop by Dec.1st. ( Scotus & Berg v Obama )

      • Betty Lou

        It’s as if a really lousy, untalented producer for CNN is running the PR for the Presidency, for Obama, like Bush.

        Today, it was stated the inauguration is to be based on Lincoln — Obama is not Lincoln, that’s a cliche the untalented are latching on to, they need to be careful, I keep seeing another Cheney 4th branch, here.

        That, or, “ladies and gentlemen, meet the Marcus’, Imelda, and Ferdinand.”

        Two wars, and truly a broken economy, people unable to pay for health care because NOT ONE politician has reigned it in, and no one Obama’s PR crew seems to have a clue as to the reality.

        Just like Cheney, and Bush, in terms of looking obtuse.

        And that sign of “office of president elect” was just childish, not worthy of the US government, placed by someone completely removed from reality, he looked silly.

        Perception is reality, but your perception of the same reality may be different from mine, there is no guarantee.

        A civil rights theme of inclusion, say, set around MLK, or Bobby Kennedy, and other greats would have been appropriate, one both respectful, and intuitive, but that won’t happen, now will it, especially given Obama’s lack of support to prop 8, and it’s approval.

        My impression is those people are highly solipsistic, trapped in their third tier superficial 90′s minds, obtuse.

        • Betty Lou

          Marcos, as in Imelda, and Ferdinand, not Marcus, soory…

        • Lark

          I agree.

      • Lark

        It has to do with how unattractive truth sounds anymore and that we have little patience I think to accept it in pill form. I think that we are just attracted by the variable, that which is constantly moving and changing.

        • Betty Lou

          Some, but you know, the smarter will evolve past those lesser, it’s not the same for everyone.

          It’s truth, and it’s not subjective.

          It’s scientific.

      • Boxer Mum 06

        I too cried and have been crying since Tuesday. The one thing I can’t get out of my mind is that our future first lady is Michelle “for the first time in my adult life I’m proud of my country” Obama.

        I can not believe this is who will be sent across the globe representing us.. can you see her with Carla Bruni and Queen Elizabeth? OMG!

        Hell, Berlusconi got slammed for trying to make a joke about Obama. Is this what we are in store for? Even our allies will be on thin ice for no one makes fun of the ONE.

        • Boxer Mum 06

          Michelle to her staff regarding meeting with Queen Elizabeth.

          “what do you mean, I have to curtsey to her? she ain’t my queen – this queen curtseys to know one!”

          Foreign relations will be great while the Obamas are in the White House.

          • Pennsylvania Red

            I would like to know what Berlusconi said that PO’d the PC police.

            After all, as an unrepentant garlic nose, it’s important to me!

            ;-)

            • NetherLands

              If I remember correctly he said Obama had a nice skin-color and that he liked a tan, too.
              ABSOLUTELY HORRENDOUS if you compare it with Silvio’s recent faux-humping a police-officer in public.
              Obama Bought The Presidency

          • workingclass artist

            LOL…Is that quote fo real?…My oh My The Brits will l o v e Meeeechelle…sheeesh!

        • libby

          Usually I don’t approve of comments like the one I am going to make but …

          Michelle Obama has got to be the hideously ugly woman inside and out. Gross!!!! No amount of lipstick is hiding that ugly mug.

          OK and now I don’t approve of any more comments like I just made. LOL!!!!

          • Geo

            Patrick Ewing, New York Nicks

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HIavxnUHls dgr

            She is not mug ugly. Even when she relaxes her mien, you think to yourself, well okay, but with very little change in her inflection, she looks startlingly angry. If I never heard her speak I would just think that was the fault of bad luck, but her words combined with the angry look, unfortunately, gives the impression she is mean.

        • Geo

          I too cried and have been crying since Tuesday. The one thing I can’t get out of my mind is that our future first lady is Michelle “for the first time in my adult life I’m proud of my country” Obama.

          I can not believe this is who will be sent across the globe representing us.. can you see her with Carla Bruni and Queen Elizabeth? OMG!

          Once the first international crisis which threatens our allies take place, the love fest for Obama will end.

          A Bin Laden tape is soon to be released. Its on Drudge: Bin Laden video alert for Obama?

          The foreign leaders will be begging for a trigger happy cowboy to scare the shit out of everyone for blinking.

      • Mary Lou

        PR, our emotions are going to be all over the map for awhile… the first day or two I felt lighter because I wasn’t being sold the Obama brand anymore – today I’m experiencing the heavy weight of realizing this joke is actually going to be leader of the free world
        Do take care…

        • Pennsylvania Red

          Thank you!

          My relationship with my BF is in a process of meltdown at the moment, I do not know if we’re going to last as a couple.

          He does not understand why I am so passionate about this.

          • fluffy bunny

            Sorry to hear that, but if he’s an obot, it’s perhaps best to move on, as it were.

            • Pennsylvania Red

              hahaha

              don’t know if he’s an 0bot (he didn’t even vote!), he just may be a SLOWbot…

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HIavxnUHls dgr

      We will have plenty of laughs at Dear Leader’s expense in the coming years!!!

  • csam

    Yes, the Democrats showed up and the GOP didn’t. I think it was the fiscal conservatives that sat this one out; once McCain backed the bailout, he lost them. Social conservatives showed up, as Palin helped bring them to the polls.

    All the GOP needs to do in 2012 is to run a real conservative who can convey the core message of fiscal and economic freedom from the government and they’ll be competitive again.

    My sense is that out of the crop that will run in 2012, only Palin and Jindal will be contenders.

    • johninca

      I basically agree– Palin-Jindal, in that order, although Romney can blow a bunch of money again if he wants.

      • Boxer Mum 06

        Does anyone believe the nasty comments from the anonymous sources about Palin are from former Romney campaign workers? I heard this several places saying they think Palin is his largest threat in 2012 and they want to take her out. If this is true, than Romney is no better than Obama.

        At one point, I thought Romney wouldn’t be a bad choice but now I’m not so sure. I’ve come to really admire and love Sarah. I may not agree with her on many issues but I believe she has integrity and imho that is number one qualification in any public office – especially the presidency.

        • stodgie

          it isn’t the repubs attacking palin. dang, it is the obots! who do you think stuck the knife in john’s back? huh? of course john certainly helped with having a sweetie on the side while he wife was ill. these thugs play dirty.

          • KFaye

            stodgie, it’s both. Romney supporters have been trashing Palin since the day John nominated her.

            • athena

              Yep….

              I think the GOP needs it own Rahm. We need someone to target races, pick the candidates that can win those constituencies and raise assloads of cash. It is going to take ALL of the next four years to start to even catch up. The dems have the momentum….but then again Obama’s screw ups may kill their “brand” as well.

              • NoBamaNoWay

                exactly; 4 years of obama will do wonders for the republican brand.

        • fluffy bunny

          It is the Romneybots. The National Review writers who all wrote horrible stuff about Palin after McCain chose her–Romney supporters. Exhibit #1 is a twat named Kathleen Parker.

          The woman Nicole Wheeler who is the source of the garbage now is a former Bush staffer. Bush and Rove pushed for Romney starting in 2006. It was the first thing that turned me off.

          • trixta

            It is also the neo-cons who are trying to take Palin down. Guess they didn’t like her standing up to the Oil companies in Alaska.

    • SteveS

      The GOP currently has no believability. They have a mere four years to build that, and I don’t see much happening yet. Mostly a lot of soul-searching and discussions about whose soul should be searched. If they want to make any kind of showing in 2012 – much less 2010! – they are not showing it.

      • csuzeq

        Funny, since Barack Obama and the DNC just pulled off the biggest political fraud in history. They beat out Hitler!

        • Leisa

          Thats right. The DNC just showed us that they are just as corrupt and underhanded as the GOP.

          Our country needs a moderate party.

          • Northwest rain

            There is the 60 – 66 % nut factor — 30% are right wing nuts who believe that bushie can do no wrong. The bushie followers are thugs.

            Then there is the 30-33% LEFT wing nuts — what we call the Obamabots — and they are thugs. Those of use who live in caucus states and dared to go as Hillary supporters suffer the full force rage of the O-butts. Also the O-butts were trained in “community organizing” techniques — so in a way the LEFT wing nuts are perhaps worse than the right wing nuts. The really hard core radical right and left probably have 15% each. These are the ones who are fully committed cult members.

            I get these percentages from the numbers that hold firm in opinion polls.

            That leaves about 40% in the middle — the moderates. These are the realists — who can often see both sides of an issue.

            It seems to me that the hardened extremes on either pole are growing in number.

            Authoritarian personalities — right wing, left wing — and both want to forced EVERYONE to believe and worship the ONE. But only their cult leader is the ONE.

            Both of these extreme are very rigid in their belief system.

            Could it be that the former Mitt Romney is gathering a cult following and trying to take the mantle of the ONE from bush? He’d have the money to deliberately build up his following.

            Rove made bushie into the ONE of the right — and the radical Left tried a different approach — extreme brand loyalty. Sort of like the old Pepsi/Coke brand wars. This is AxleSNOT’s background — marketing — and so he packaged O-zero and sold him as the anti-bush. Marketing Psychology is used on us all the time — GM over Ford — Ivory dish detergent over JOY.

            It was inevitable that psychological warfare be used to sell competing brands — except that McCain didn’t play the game — so only the ONE was playing the game.

            Many voters had their minds fucked by sophisticated psychological marketing. They bought an illusion.

            The real Obama is mostly an unknown — except that we know that he is a typical Chicago crooked politician.

            Problem is the illusion also has no experience — WE know the facts — but the majority of voters have been conned.

      • torland077

        Your post shows an incredible ignorance of election history. Jimmy Carter won an election against a republican party whose brand had just been destroyed by Watergate. He was running against the man who had just unpopularly pardoned Nixon and the Repub party was in shambles. 4 years short years later Carter was CRUSHED by Reagan and in came the Reagan Revolution. Clinton won the presidency in 92 and the Dems held control of both houses by significant margins. By 94 in 2 short years the Repubs took control of congress for the first time in 40 years gaining over 50 seats in the house and 8 seats in the senate. In 2002 and 2004 Repubs expanding their control of congress marking the first time, I think ever, repubs expanded in an off year when controling the presidency and I remember the pundits talking about the death of the Dem party, blah, blah, blah.

        Bottom line is if the Dems that control the federal government do a good job over the next 2/4 years and save the economy they will expand if they screw up (which is most likely with the policies they are advocating) and the economy tanks Repubs will be in control again. It’s how it works, the public rewards performance and punishes failure. The public perceived Bush republicanism as a failure and they punished them. If/when Obie, Reid and Pelosi fail they will be swept out.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HIavxnUHls dgr

          I am with T.077 on this one.

        • getfitnow

          I certainly hope they will be swept out because of the lust for complete power and greed. Just bcause the dems won doesn’t translate to a unified party. The cracks will become obvious when the extreme left and center left start jockeying for position. I don’t trust the dems and as long as this leadership remains, I will not support them. I am an independent but wholeheartedly voted for McCain/Palin.

    • Tuppence411

      It was the “elite” fiscal conservatives who sat out and are fueling the continued slamming of Palin. Highly educated, not very religious. The ones that look down their noses at the evangelicals as the lunatic fringe of the GOP.

      • Vicki

        Ironically, the elites were perfectly happy with McCain even though he betrayed conservatives time after time. The crowd at FreeRepublic (social, fiscal and foreign policy conservatives) supported him only because he was the only viable alternative to 0bama. That support was half-hearted at best. When Sarah Palin came along everything changed for them. They donated, volunteered, and enthusiastically supported her despite McCain.

        Even so, they were and are angry at the Noonan/Chris Buckley side of the party for selling them out so many times. With the control of the House and Senate and President Bush, Republicans tackled exactly 0 of the issues conservatives care about. 2004-2006 were a sorry excuse for conservatism.

        They debated the Harriet Myers nomination; spent political capital on debating the McCain/Kennedy amnesty bill; and spent like the treasury was a money tree. Instead of making the tax cuts permanent, heading off the housing crisis by investigating the FMs, building a border fence, fighting an effective war in Iraq or actually trying to cut the size of government, the Rs dithered away the last two years of their incumbency.

        In the end all we had to show was Medicare Part D, McCain/Feingold Finance “Reform,” No Child Left Behind and a near-debacle in Iraq and Afghanistan. Other than appointing Alito and Roberts, and other than not surrendering in Iraq, Bush governed from the middle. McCain would have done the same, and the conservative base knew it.

        Polls show that about 60% of the American population defines itself as center-right. Conservatism hasn’t collapsed, but earmarks, profligate spending, expensive and boneheaded new programs, abysmal performance in a war zone, and wavering in the face of sovereignty and real conservative values damaged the GOP brand. It will take a lot of time to rebuild it. Let’s just hope this is more like 1976 and not 1932.

        • stodgie

          exactly, this country is more center right than ever. many of us who considerd ourselves somewhat liberal and left of center no longer do thanks to obama. that won’t be changing. it is up to the repubs to recenter themselves. i think they will. they have more discipline than dims. the dims elected blue dogs. so the obots both lefty and aa, please pack your bag and get yourselves settled in under the bus. we are leaving to live our lives again so there is plenty of room.

        • http://home.comcast.net/~vincep312 VinceP1974

          I”m an independent Conservative and I agree with everything that Vicki said. This is exactly how I see things on the Republican side.

    • Lark

      I had a lot of trouble w/McCain when he backed the bailout the way he did and when he appeared in the debate after he said he wouldn’t do it unless that issue was settled. That kind of performance does not match my criteria. Taking the easy way out was Bush’s salient characteristic and I dislike going back on one’s word. But I understood Palin’s idea on rebuilding our country by stressing on resources and that’s all I wanted in a candidate. I am for an America that goes back to its own resources and frees itself from dependency on foreign resources.

    • baby_puppy

      McCain backing the bailout was a huge mistake (along with suspending is capaign and then going to the debate anyhow!). I knew it even then. He touts his “maverick” image, then folds. He should have supported those Repubs who didn’t want to go for it and in unison they could have stood together. Remember many many Dems as well as Repubs were not for it either. He should have listened to the callers on c-span.

      Like the Iraq war resolution, it would have been difficult to go against because the press and Obama would have tried to crucify McCain with it, but hey, he’s the maverick, so it would have given the Repubs cred and an opportunity to join forces behind Mac. The Dems showed unity in the end, not the Repubs.

  • politicsIsDirty

    Bush performance was so terrible that if the devil run against McCain, the devil could have still won the Presidency…. is that what you were saying?

    • Lark

      I don’t think he said anything.

    • kgirl1028

      Pretty much. He definately didn’t win cause he was qualified or in all honesty win a debate. Obama was allowed the short bus all the way to the white house.