Where Do I Start

the auto industry is our last bastion of in house machine tool industry ………. it must be saved.

Michigan and their governor backed BO, so now they want payback. A lot of people are going to have their hands out to BO. He must owe a lot of favors.

Like I said yesterday, any bail-out for the auto industry should be contingent on them producing affordable high mileage vehicles. I’m sick of this crap…if you want a car that gets more than 30mpg you have to buy foreign, or pay out the ass! Just try to buy a minivan in this country that gets 35+ mpg…

Obama wants to save the Auto Industry’s pension funds yet the New People’s Democratic Party want to confiscate 401Ks.

I’m sorry, but auto-workers union has as much blame for the Auto Industry’s decline as the executives running the big three.

when will the big three learn that quality is what sells cars. the big three had never had the same quality as japanese and german cars except when they bought japanese cars and relabeled them as GM, FORD, and Chrysler cars (Geo Prism, Eagle Talon, Dodge Ram ,etc) during the 80′s.

GM executives a couple of years ago admitted that they manufacture cars that will only last around 5 years since they are teargetting a demographic of consumers that like to switch cars every five years. I’m sorry but that is a bunch of bull. even if there’s a lot of people that switches cars every five years, a well made quality car has a second hand market that benefits lower income people and it saves resources and energy as well.

the Big three has been very irresponsible in their practices and they’ve always experienced hardship every time it catches up to them. the only difference now is that the federal government has entered the bail out business and would excacerbate bad decisions within these companies.

let them fail! out of the ashes will come other companies that would carry on the torch of the US auto industry, another company that would hopefully be more efficient and is not beholden to any unions that drying up the coffers of these companies.

unions have their use, but to bleed a company dry and protect incompetence among it’s ranks (not all, but there are quite a few) is a death knell to any company that is unionized.

They have changed their tune in the last couple of years. The quality of the cars, particularly economic models, has gotten way better.

But we just need to let this thing fall. It’s continually slinding and we are propping it up on $700 billion worth of toothpicks.

Obama is officially done.

Your only touching the tip of the iceberg.

So you’re saying we should prop up industries that makes inferior products for old time’s sake?? That’s one heckuva reason to hand them over $25 B.

Toyota, Honda, and even BMW have plants down south. Honda just opened a plant in TN a couple of weeks ago, and it is now fully staffed with THOUSANDS of people. Clearly, SOME car companies can make cars that sell, and are capable of managing a budget as well.

Thanks Amy! Very nice.

No, no, Dawnelle – today is a day for thanking people like YOU!

And Galt – what’s on the menu tonight?

Don’t figure on Howard Dean disappearing off the radar. Word on one of the Democrats’ sites is that he is being considered for an Obama administration position. Specifically, Secretary of Health and Human Services.

It’s the big reason NO ONE is getting their free “goodies” from Uncle OButtcrack. It would take two terms, which he will NOT HAVE, to pay off all the favors and the corrupt scum who shoved him down our throats. Starting with Soros.

Don’t blame the people working the lines for decisions made by those at the top. US car companies are perfectly capable of making fuel efficient, quality automobiles. The only reason they didn’t is because the guys running the show decided to make something else. Our solution to the greed that has lead American business overseas can’t be to finish the job and kill off the rest of American Business.

Galt better not be feeding us CROW again. Although the Eggs Obama Benedict were great this morning!

Banks are collapsing, large retail stores (Mervyns, Curcuit City) are closing or going bankrupt, UPS is laying off 40,000 workers, the American auto industry (who employ 3 million Americans) is also collapsing, the housing market has fallen and foreclosures are skyrocketing….thank God we have a great president who can…..strike that, thank God we elected a NEW pres…i…dent……GEEZ we’re screwed.

Howard Dean aided and abetted in the voter fraud to “select” OVomit. I would imagine that would have its rewards!

Hillary fans-

Great short article at Politico.com about how much effort Hillary put in campaiging to help get Obambi elected, and how (so far) he has not lifted a finger to help her with her debt. The article is flattering of this woman, even if it wrongly states she “lost the primary”… (we all know the truth of how that really went down,….. sadly).

As for this disgusting bailout of the American Auto industry

I don’t agree much with the libertarian’s view of government.. but in this case they must be blowing a gasket and I can understand why.

At what point do we as a nation stop bailing out failing business industries… no matter the outcome of how it affects this country in the long run?

Should failed businesses be rewarded?

I think not.

I grew up in Cincinnati, a huge factory, union town and auto makers. It was a known fact that if a new guy got a job at one of the auto factories there, that if he was too deligent, worked too hard or too fast.. he could expect to go out and find all his tires slit at the end of the day. THIS WAS COMMON PRACTICE.. and no heads would even turn at the idea of this tactic by union workers.

I’m all for unions, that is, the unions based on how and why unions began so many years ago and why. Long hours, health risks, children working, unfair treatment to ridiculous levels.. but for god sake unions have gone over the top with their tactics in this country and it has hurt us all in the end.

I remember back in the early 80′s if I recall that the unemployment lines in Cincy were long due to the kahns meat factory closing in Cincy and heading south to a Union free state. Kahns meats, (bologna, hotdogs, etc) are big in that part of the country and they had a plant in the Cincy area. The workers were demanding $16 per hr on the line. Kahns gave up instead of giving in to the new walkout by workers and packed up and literally left town.

keep in mind, in the early 80′s (or was it late 70′s this happened?).. either way, $16 per hour working on a factory assemply line back then was a ridiculous amound of money to demand and the company, rightly so imo, told the union to go fk themselves..

Now the car industry in America. They’ve been broken for 30 yrs. They don’t build attractive cars anyone wants. The % of lemons sold was inexcusable, then you deal with asshole car salesmen, dirty sales tactics, bumper to bumper warranties that just so happen to NOT cover what ever is broken on your car… and lastly, they were expensive as the foreign cars we all turned to.

saying we should “buy american”, in this case, is a load of horse shit. The facts are that american manufactured cars are full of foreign made parts, and many foreign made cars are now built in this country giving plenty of good Americans work.. so the fuzzy line on that topic is even fuzzier these days and there is no reason to “buy american” if they aren’t competitive….

and competitive they are not!

For the last 30 yrs the American public have been telling the American auto industry we don’t like your cars.. they are UGLY. period. That along with quality, price, treatment by car dealers all comes into play and we said “NO!” a long time ago.

Did they ever listen? NOPE!

Every American auto dealer, every last one of them builds ugly cars. The 3 American made cars I’ve ever had and bought off the showroom floor, all had electrical problems that were constantly in for repair.

I can proudly say I haven’t bought American in 15 yrs. The last 2 new cars I’ve bought.. YES I did look at our auto dealers first.. I looked thoroughly and found nothing I liked.

I would never buy anything from the Ford company due to Henry Ford’s sympathizing with Hitler. (Just like the Catholic church who did the same and still holds valuable artworks that belong to dead Jews) I hold this against them both.. and forever will.

So I wouldn’t buy a Ford no matter what. But the union tactics, the poor management, the companies not fixing everything that IS wrong with their own auto industry for the last 30 yrs, well, they deserve what’s happening to them.. they are becoming an extinct entity and to them and bad business habits I say good riddens.

DO NOT BAIL OUT THE AUTO INDUSTRY…

who’s next? how do you choose whom to help next? how big or how little does the company need to be before the gov steps in and interfers in something they have no business getting involved with?

Let the unionized auto workers go out and get non unionized new jobs building up our future energy outlets such as windmills, nuclear facilities, solar everything etc.

and by the way, like it or not, we will need nuclear facilities.. I don’t like it.. I live in nevada with yucca mountain the only place built in the country to deal with nuclear waste and it’s not safe..

but how can ppl be talking about energy efficient cars, partially from plug in cars, that need electricity, when there is an electricity shortage in this country already?

Bailing out the auto industry is a disgrace and a dispicable idea.. Our gov has to stop interfering with business failures.. let’em sink.. move on.. help ppl with getting reasonable loans on the houses they are about to lose.. make that a priority and let’s build new, technology and modern jobs.

nuff said

ROFLMAO imustprotest…yet in this climate of financial doom, OVomit still has the cash to hire his 5,000 TROLLZ. At least they’re EMPLOYED

RRRAmy, we have homemade whole wheat organic rigatoni with my special secret recipe sauce a la Galt. [Twists mustache, if I had one].

Or we have our usual hand tossed organic pizza with choice of toppings including OIAF’s favorite: uncured peperoni.

I still carry farm-raised, oraganic fed, free-roaming/cage free, and no pesticide-growth hormones-antibiotics popcorn.

And thanks to you RRRAmy for standing up to the disgusting monolith power structure here in the USofA.

You do understand don’t you Larry, that its not just “Detroit” that is effected by the demise of the American auto industry don’t you? There are suppliers who employ people all over the country not to mention dealerships etc. There are also all of the businesses frequented by employees of plants whether it be Ford, GM, Chrysler, Lear Seating, Delphi, TRW… and smaller suppliers and parts manufacturers.

And just so you know, “detroit” as you call it, is also comprised by Metro Detroit that has hundreds of thousands of residents and businesses, like my husbands electrical contracting business who has been effected by the downturn in the auto industry and the outsourcing of jobs which has resulted in a downturn in the housing market. If the american auto industry fails, millions more jobs will be lost nationwide and Michigan will become a wasteland.

Kwamee was the mayor of Detroit. He had NOTHING to do with the auto industry. Ford and Chrysler’s headquarters are in Dearborn and Auburn hills. Pull your head out of your ass Larry. Obama is trying to do the right thing for the country! Get an education and try not to be so damn ignorant!!!

And I’ve yet to get my kiss…

I think Secretary of Douchebaggery would be more apropos.

and you hit the nail on the head.. he MUST owe one helluva lot of favors out there…

I have been confused about this whole pension fund problem all day, and finally found someone who could explain the problem. Years ago Gm had a much larger number of workers employed and a large pool of workers paying into the insurance pool. Today due to cut backs and even the mechanizing of the industry there is a smaller pool of workers and a greater pool of retirees drawing on insurance funds for medical purposes. I may not like bailing out the company, but I also do not believe it is right to deny people who worked at a company for 30 years the medical care they paid into.
One thing that many do not seem to understand is that GM has also spent the last few years retooling so that it is ready to manufacture the cars of the future. That is not cheap. Of the major manufaturers Ford is a much riskier venture. They have not really begun the process yet.
I know I am only one voice in the wilderness, but I do think that if we deny the bailout in this case this country is looking at a much larger problem. Ther eis no real program in place to provide the insurance for this number of people and just adding them suddenly to government programs would swamp and collapse the system. Many doctors refuse to accept some types of government insurance because of the required paperwork, some have gotten out of private practice altogether. How do we then fill the gap?

The country is broke.

I’m goddamned sick of this nonsense. Who do the people in this government think they are.. driving the whole country into poverty.

The Unionized Workers in Detroit can now reap what their unrealistic thuggish contracts have for them.

Where in the Constitution does it say the Congress can bail companies out ? No where. Thus they can’t / shouldn’t do it. People need to take control of their lives. Don’t ask me to pay for their mistakes.

farm raised popcorn?

8-0

The unions are a big part of the problem at the car companies. They need to go into bankruptcy so they can clear out their obligations. The way they are going now the government mind as well buy them and just turn it into a government run enterprise that employs people just for the sake of employing them.

Of course I’m not, and I agree that the people on the line don’t make those decisions. Neither did the vast number of people who worked at Enron.

And YES, US car makers should have made their cars more fuel efficient. They have had the technology for years. Given that, are we supposed to just look the other way at their (poor) decision and keep pouring money down the drain? OUR money?

There are more businesses than automakers, though as I have said, the foreign ones seem to be doing pretty well. There’s a reason for that. If people mismanage businesses, they go into bankruptcy. That’s how it works, right?

So it’s like a WPA except the craftsmanship is poor and the pensions are huge.

Of course, Obama will bail out the automaking unions. They got him elected and worked side by side with ACORN to make sure that voter fraud was alive and well in Michigan and a dozen other states.

Crow pizza was on the menu yesterday. You did not check the special’s board?

LOL at the popcorn!!

I would like the union contract disabled. I strongly disagree with some portions of their contracts like paying salaries when individuals are layed off. Why is the auto industry also a welfare organization and now we as taxpayers are paying them to stay home?

You never cage-free popcorn? We believe in being humane to the mighty popcorn kernel, such a noble beast indeed!

Two words.. too bad.

I hope everyone is beginning to realize the dangers of relying on other parties for your own survival…

How’s that working out now? Hmm?

And to hear so many of you want to force the rest of us into this situation… it’s scary.

What’s Social Security other than a GM-Pension situation.. but scaled up to the whole country?

Everything the Govt has gotten into leads to disaster…

If this country survives the next 4 years under a full Marxist assault, I hope enough people gain a new appreciation for the Constitution and the restraints it put on the Federal Govt that have been ignored since the first horrible age of Progressives swept the country.

When enough people die because of their false reliance on a govt that had no ability to protect them, I hope that puts an end to the dream that one is not ultimately responsible for oneself.

Well, I AM Italian…so maybe a little Rigatoni might hit the spot? You rock Galt. What would we do without the Galt Fine Cuisine?

America vacillates between one extreme to the other and all of us in the middle get screwed.

BO played and pandered to the union officials and the workers all during the general election and primaries and now he owes them for their votes–Arise proletariats and salute your new leader. He’s going to pay your mortgages, your fuel bills and make sure you are fed–Marx would just be so proud right now.

Thanks for that. You are spot on.

You say that unions are the problem but refrain from saying how. I don’t know of any union that mandated US car companies to design and build fuel inefficient, lower quality cars that sell at a price point below that of their foreign competitors. That decision was made at the management level as means of maximizing profits for the shareholder.

That’s a little too on the Birkenstock side for ME. I’ll take the pizza and pasta

It reeks of old-style Democrats to have this be their first big headline, yeah we’re bailing out the unions.

Our tax dollars are funding those pensions. Unreal.

We should never have started this bail out fiasco. Let the businesses that aren’t run well fail, new ones will take their place that are stronger. The more we bail out companies the worse off the country will be. And where would the bail outs stop? My small company is having trouble, is uncle sam going to add me to the bail out list? I seriously doubt it.

You better stay away from the dessert menu. My Italian desserts are just too good!

Let the big three die and you throw almost 2 million people out of work and out of their houses too.

It will kill the rust belt and mid-west.

Personally I’m against the bailout, however letting the big three die when our economy is in a recession and losing jobs out the wazoo is just short of committing economic suicide.

As stupid and venal as Obama and company are, even they recognize this fact.

You OTOH don’t. All I see from you is hate towards the most helpless in this disaster – the pensioners.

You truly are a merciless creature.

I think maybe you forget most Hillary supporters are left leaners here. Some of us are actually pretty far left but we also believe in the democratic process and no one should be allowed to subvert it.

Uh oh…you are going to get me fat.

I know that Galt. It was a joke. Silly goose.

I chalk up a lot of the rhetoric here to ideologues who are very pissed off at the moment.

I know that you know that I know that you know.

I’m like that Hawkeye character, usually silly but once in a while I mix in something serious even between someone else’s silliness.

They became more concerned about the price of their stock than the quality of their product.

Tiramisu or cannoli anyone?

You are forgetting that the foreign auto companies that have come over here are not paying pensions to retirees and many are given big tax relief to just start their plans in the cities or towns they are in. Of course they are able to make a profit. They can sell their cars for much less that GM Ford and Chrysler because they to do not have that overhead. What do you want GM, Ford and Chrysler do – not pay the pensions for the retirees who have worked for them for 30- 40 years?

No, we are not supposed to look the other way. We are supposed to take responsibility for our actions however. The particular action I’m referring to is our decision at the national level, that was implemented by our elected representation and affirmed over twenty year of elections, to deregulate our private sector. We did that as a people. We can’t throw some of us into the fire as a sacrifice for decisions we all made. And even if we didn’t make them because of our political views or affiliations, we are still responsible as Americans. I heard a lot about responsibility back during the accendency of the fringe right. I personally think it’s time we start acting that way. I completely reject any proposition that throws Americans or American business into the flames as a means of getting out of this mess on the cheap. That’s the kind of thinking that got into this mess in the first place.

You hit the nail on the head there, Galt.

And also may I add, that for every auto worker that is laid off it affects 25 other service workers. If we do not support the American Automobile industry we will have a massive layoff of millions of people. Think of how many more bankruptcies will then have to be filed and how many other service industries that will be affected. Talk about a severe slide into a major recession out of which we may never crawl out. Why can we bail out companies like AIG and all the other banks that are not even using the money to infuse credit into the economy and not help the auto workers retain their jobs which are feeding the economy and are paying taxes is beyond me!

seriously… SERIOUSLY, political choice aside, go look at the billions bush’s war spent giving to haliburton and companies like them..

seriously-

are you are a republican? fine.. I assume you hate Michael Moore automatically? fine.

but please watch his old documentary fahrenheit 911

watch closely the part where under cover cameras went into a huge banquet for repubs and haliburton and other big big companies who laughed and said this war is going to be profitable for them.

then go google those companies and read up on how much money they actually made off this war..

please-

I truly hope this bipartisan nonsense ends some day. We’re all people and should have bonded together as PEOPLE this year. Instead…well, you know.

you have to remember back to when the US was in an auto war with the Japanese. They were building all their vehicles in their japan, shipping them here and still cleaning our clock. The factories they built here was a requirement imposed on them by us to counter their dominance in the market place.

Eventually the government won’t be able to bail out these companies. What then. Depression. Right smack in the middle of the Obama presidency. Lets see how he handles it.

Can I have a tiny sliver of both LOL OINK OINK….You’re toooo good Galt.

I am trying to temper my anger, rage and sadness about OVomit stealing this election, and being such a buffoon, with the fact that I would prefer for Senator McCain to go about his business and watch OVomit flop on the sidewalk like a goldfish out of water.

Toyota and Honda seem to be able to operate plants in this country and be competitive (perhaps because they pay lower wages/less benefits and are better managed), and I’ve heard they also have more of the parts used in those plants made in this country than GM and Ford (I think many of the parts for GM are made in China). GM and Ford have demonstrated that they can’t be competitive as currently operated, so any bailout funds should be contingent on vast restructuring and downsizing along with management and union concessions, otherwise we would just be throwing good money after bad.

As for the pension funds, if the companies should go bankrupt, I believe the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation would take over. If the companies continue to operate, however, it doesn’t really seem fair for the tax payers to be on the hook now, because I’m sure if they start making money again, the profits would be eaten up by upper management and the unions and never make it back to the treasury or the pension funds. (Chances are upper management was aware of severe underfunded liabilities for some time now, and I’m sure they didn’t allow concerns about those liabilities to prevent them from taking unearned bonuses.)

In any event, it really seems as though the government needs to stop rewarding bad behavior. I realize the tax payers are being threatened with the next depression if some of these institutions go out, but really, at the very least it seems as though those who ran them into the ground should be held accountable (as it stands now, they’ve been allowed to essentially take the money and run).

Shhh! You don’t want that to happen! The corrupt parties and their handlers will lose control of all of us sheep! Seriously, I agree wholefuckingheartedly with you.

Bailing them out will prolong the inevitable–remember the stages of grief, we should just get past denial and bargaining and anger and get right to acceptance. We’ve passed the point of no return–next year the unemployment rate will be sky high because of the policies of the last 16 years–we can’t turn back the clock and we can’t recoup the money squandered and stolen by the white collar criminals.

And these companies cannot go into bankruptcy and reorganize like everyone else because why, exactly?

No one is hating on the pensioners. That’s an exaggeration, to put it mildly. I know I was very clear that it was the responsibility of the COMPANIES to fulfill their obligations to the pensioners. THEY should have to make that up, maybe not give each other huge bonuses for a job poorly done, or cut back the salaries of the top execs. THAT would be the way to go rather than forcing it on the average taxpayers, many of who are struggling to get their OWN retirement funds.

With all due respect…I have a girlfriend in Iraq who thanks America every day of her life. It seems that under Saddam her life wasn’t so great. Saddam’s crazy son apparently thought it was his right to go knock on doors and violently rape the women over there. Now she sees a future of more freedom and safety. What Communist News Network never shows is the citizens of Iraq who are thrilled that they will eventually have some stability and security, as opposed to the horrors of Saddam. Is there a way for people to stop hating everyone who doesn’t think Iraq is 100% the biggest abortion in American history? It’s not a REPUBLICAN thing. I didn’t vote for Bush either time. I won’t sit around and hate him because I have been safe and sound for 8 years. Something that is officially a thing of the past. No more safety or sleeping at night. So, I do thank Bush for that. I will never hate Bush as much as some people here. Is that okay? Are we entitled? I bet in six months many more people change their tunes about it. Considering that Joe Biden already warned us about what’s coming because OVomit is out of his league in this job.

The reason the Japanese started their plants here was because it was cheaper for them to build here rather than ship them to us. And also by the way, we did not charge them a tariff to ship their cars here, but Japan charged us a tariff for our cars shipped to them, and then dismantled them and put them back together again and charged an even higher price to the people in Japan so we were not competitive – it gives a whole new meaning to how they will bury us from within – with – I might add the assistance of the Federal Government (by not charging them a tariff also).

I think you are right. But I think sadly that we have exactly the OPPOSITE of what we need in a LEADER right now.

WTH? What does Halliburton have to do with this.

We were going to put tarrifs on their cars if they didn’t build here, and we meant it. The alternative is believing that American companies were moving over seas because of cheaper labor and laxer environmental regulations but the Japanese found it more cost effective to move here to build?

Galt—I’d like a double espresso, if you can guarantee that no Italians will be harmed in the making of it.
Ciao!

By any chance were this morning’s eggs cracked by the Rev. J. Jackson?

How is relying on a company that you worked for over 30 years considered relying on other people. Do you not have insurance and a retirement plan at the place where you work or if not wish you did? Most companies in America offer that – you sound as if it is something no one should ever expect.

And Social Security was never meant to be a full pension – it was set up to “help out” during your retirement years but you were expected to save and/or work for a pension in order to survive. Granted, for many Americans that is all they have, but it was never set up for that purpose.

Yes no Italians were harmed.

Thanks for the post, Rev. Amy. Your conclusion about the Unions is exactly the conclusion my husband reached today. We were just talking about it at dinner. (and he’s one of those dang LAWYERS! Yikes! So please don’t take offense and think that I’m implying that you act like a lawyer! Seriously, he’s one of the good guy lawyers….of which there are many. They just don’t sell newspapers like the bad ones do)

How do you think they are going to be able to get any credit from anyone if they just walk away from owing billions of dollars due to bankruptcy – who will lend them the money to begin again? I think they just might be considered a risk. If we can keep them on their feet and help them retool to build cars that would even drive with natural gas (which is cleaner and cheaper) it would be cost effective and help with the environment. The oil companies would be glad to put in the infrastructure for the natural gas pumps if there were enough cars on the road to merit the cost. The technology is there already.

All I need is a tap from my gas line at home and a hose to refill my car while I’m sleeping

you know with his BFF Kwame Kilpatrick

LOL! You mean the one who went to jail?
Great post RRRA, and nice tribute to the vets.

Yes, they were able to build cars here cheaper because they did not have the expenses of the American car manufacturers as I said up thread – they were given tax incentives by cities/towns to build their plants and did not have pensions to pay and were non-union shops. (lower wages).

There are many issues other than rewarding a badly run business. We won WWII because we could out produce everyone. Those factories were re-tooled for war time production. We have lost so much of our heavy industry and manufacturing base, that it does threaten our national security as well as our economy . This is evident by our large war time expenditure and little increase in actual production to show for it.So it is more than just jobs and livelihood issues.

Toyota and Honda pay pretty well in this country, maybe not as well as the Big Three, but still pay well. These Japanese companies are young and do not have a large pool of retirees. This is what keeps their costs down for now. Given time they will be in the same boat as the older American companies.

Unfortunately American auto made the same mistake as they did in the 1970′s during the oil embargo. The US industry was stuck with huge, poorly made, gas guzzlers. They tried to redesign to more fuel efficient cars, but when the gas crisis eased..back to the same old thing again being very resistant to think beyond the status quo. Who really needs a Lincoln Navigator or a Hummer. It reminds me of the Conestoga wagon mentality where you could pack up your entire house and move at a moments notice. Except we no longer have anywhere to go.

cannoli!!!

You’re talking about the dynamic that decides where they settle. They’re only here because we gave them no choice.

The “big” 3 have been struggling for over 2 decades now! C’mon, year after year, they produce mediocre (at best) products that doesn’t rank high in the reliability issue. I’m sure these 3 companies have focus group every year and apparently, it all falls on deaf ears. If a company has mismanagement issues, you’d think after a decade, they can get their shit together. These companies act as if this crisis was just sprung on them from out of the blue. Helllloooo? Do these execs look at their balance sheet? Sheesh.

Another point to factor in is that the auto industry and the airplane industry are the last of the manufacturing base in American. If (God Forbid) we should go to war we will need these base industries to build our tanks and whatever else we need or we will be relying on foreign countries to supply us at a time when we are in need. Do you want to take that risk?

One good thing about my virtual ristorante is I will never have to layoff anyone.

That would work.

BINGO!!!

Galt… Do you have Neapolitan ice cream on the menu? I haven’t had that in years.

RRR Amy, have you seen the movie Who Killed The Electric Car? If that movie doesn’t piss you off then nothing will.

I was only trying to explain why it was possible for them to make a larger profit than the American car manufacturer. It is not entirely GM or Ford or Chrysler’s fault. As far as profit is concerned it is a win/win for the Japanese.

Yes sure do!

I’ll take two, please!

You haven’t demonstrated that they are making a larger profit then US car companies.

Galt—just remember: NO bathroom breaks for little Mikey Corleone. Trust me.

My boss’ boss baked a couple dozen chocolate chip cookies and handed them out to everyone today. He joked with me and said he wouldn’t give me any because I voted for McCain/Palin. Then he handed me two. I guess he only drank a little sip of Kool-Aid.

Okay, just trying to catch up a bit here. Is this bailout coming from the funds from the original 700 billion dollar bailout?
Was it not the original plan to use the bailout money (with the figure of 700 billion coming from the predicted amount of mortgages being foreclosed)to create a bottom for the home mortgage industry?
(The industry directly responsible for the drop in market value of all these other industries.)
Were we not told the money would be used to buy toxic assets (mortgages) to free up the banks to continue their normal business?
Were we not also told the 700 billion dollar figure would be significantly less once those assets were sold back in a less tumultuous market?
Then we were told that portions of the money would be used to renegotiate mortgages (where the buyer originally qualified under normal circumstances)to allow those struck by predatory lenders to remain in their homes.
Now, NONE of this has happened and suddenly the government is taking responsibility for several other private sector industries. Refunding banks and now the auto makers who have failed of their own accord?
Propping up businesses that have shown a failure to thrive with capital that is not replenishable and is actually borrowed in the first place does not even sound logical.
The funds do not exist, they have no means to recoup the loss and those industries are not likely to reinvent without incentive.
Theoretically, if the govt bought only the ‘toxic assets’ and allowed the market to work freely, wouldn’t all the other businesses have to succeed the way they always have- by providing a necessary service or product of value, being fiscally responsible and using the so called ‘fixed’ banking industry to expand?
That was the last ‘theory’ I heard.

Revisionist history here or did I miss something?

Who kill Electric Car:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_AU3_2IT8k8&NR=1

Or end up in an Obama Drama stink tank on O st. Screw K st. Do they have an O st in DC? If not it’s coming.

Galt please tell me you don’t serve Latte’s k? and you have a BO free menu?

I am trying so hard to watch my colestorol intake, but it is so distracting having to watch the Auto industry unload it’s health care costs on the tax payer.

Rev Amy, Thanks for the kodak moment.
They are so hard to find these days what with Eastman not around to keep an eye on things.

There are two things that a foot.

1) the dilution and theft of the big three auto pensions funds ala Rezko
2) the auto industry will off load the overhead. As per LD’s fine article, not only do the big three have bad investments in securities like everyone else, they have the added “burden” of a completely mis-managed pension fund.

Face it, that part of the industrial complex that completes the tail of this dinosaur is toast. Detroit is broken and the last of the “rust belt” to say goodbye.

BO wanting to help the unions out is like sayin Pelosi just had an Orgasim at tax payer expense. So what do we get for our money? This SUV of a “bail out” will loose 50% of it’s value the second you drive it off the lot. (Don’t tell me you don’t know what I am talking about)
In the end, why do I get the impression that if BO pays the union bosses off, he will only turn around and suck it out of some other well known orrifice to the betterment of his “pals”?

You Rock Rev. Amy

Attention UPPITY!

Did you see these Berg links? You mentioned scouring the net. I thought maybe you missed these:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08-570.htm

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a391.htm

Souter is involved in this case:

Oct 30 2008 Petition for a writ of certiorari before judgment filed. (Response due December 1, 2008)
Oct 31 2008 Application (08A391) for an injunction pending disposition of the petition for a writ of certiorari, submitted to Justice Souter.
Nov 3 2008 Supplemental brief of applicant Philip J. Berg filed.
Nov 3 2008 Application (08A391) denied by Justice Souter.

The writ of certiorari has not been ruled on. Berg has the documents on his site.

And as result social programms make cars to expensive plus high taxes and we have what we have.

Please read these statistics.
http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2006/10/02/american-automakers-losing-in-profit-margin-comparison/

Unions are a problem. Toyota pays their employees 48 per hr, the big three 78 dollars. If something breakdowns in a plant, the person who works with the machine and can fix it, is not allowed because unions specify what machines you work. So they wait for days for someone to come and fix the machine, which they’ve could have fixed themselves. This is done so there are more jobs in the plant, but it’s not practical or efficient.

You cannot be competitive this way. Never should have bailed out chrysler. Would have been bought up by ford etc… and they would have learned their lesson, they have to compete.

We don’t need a bathroom in our virtual ristorante unless someone would need to take a virtual leak?

It’s all a shell game!

Someone made the astute comment that for each UAW job there are 25 others supporting it.

3 mil x 25 is a hell of a ripple.

I drink lattes and we proudly serve them. No worries on the arugula, I can’t find any organic so I don’t carry it. If Opampers ever comes to my ristorante I will feed him one of my crow and hubris pizzas.

Thank you Mary. many of the commenters here do not seem to understand that these people that will loose everything actually paid into the plans for years. There is no massive company give away of these benefits.
I get it that people are angry, I am too. They need to understand though that unions are not outdated, in some cases they are needed. Native American casinos do not recognize state law and I personally know of people who were let go for no reason and then denied back vacation pay and severance. The unions are trying to protect these workers now.
Just because someone has not been in a union or does not like them does not man that the are evil. Yes the leadership at the national level is twisted to some extent. They want to self perpetuate using this card law thing.
There have even been some really bad things done in the name of unions, but many people need some form of protection even now. The unions are the one fighting for the help from the government for the former workers and even the present ones who could soon loose something they have paid into for years and that is the reason they were established.

What’s good for GM is good for the United States, still going after 50 yrs.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4320/is_/ai_n29254128

Thanks for the link, Galt!

Berg was on Jim Bohannan yesterday (I heard him after midnight). If I understand it correctly, B.O. must present a true BC by Dec 1st. There are several other suits pending involving Secretaries of State. The most promising one is in New Jersey (?).

Here’s the thing, and I really appreciate your comments on this: these automakers have had EVERY opportunity to re-tool their cars. There is no reason why the Japanese can make cars with far better gas mileage than American cars except that the US automakers were ALSO in bed with the oil people. They worked/work hand-in-glove. They CHOSE this route. Are they not to be held accountable for ANYTHING?

As others have mentioned, they also haven’t been building cars people wanted to buy. Why should taxpayers have to essentially provide welfare to this industry that has refused to re-tool when it has had the opportunity to do so?

ANd what does it say when, as you claim, they can’t get credit? Why can’t they get credit? Because they MISMANAGED THEIR INDUSTRY!!!!

Btw, someone claimed the Japanese don’t have to pay the top wages here. Wrong: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_17/b4081038999094.htm?chan=magazine+channel_news

Good discussion!

No offense windy, but you should “educate” yourself on this matter. Stop being a victim mentality, it hurts everyone.

I don’t know why people get down on Berg. So far he has done exactly what he said he would. I don’t see him succeeding but am glad someone is trying to force that asshole to prove he is even eligible to be POTUS.

That’s not statistics. That’s a sampling from one year when gas prices were climbing through the roof and US car companies where practicality giving cars away because Americans weren’t buying them. I bought a Toyota Tacoma in 2006 and it cost thousands more then the US truck I could have bought. But I would have gotten ten miles to the gallon as opposed to twenty. That Japanese companies are making 2000 dollars more per car is not surprising at a time when their cars cost at least two thousand dollars more then the comparable American auto choice.

No such thing as a tiny sliver.

I agree vince. Nicely stated. The victim mentality in this country is deadly. I have been part of that mentality until this election opened my eyes and ears.

I read that one of the petitioners has selected Justice Thomas to review his case (I can’t remember which one).

Why Galt…That would be virtually impossible.

Okay, so what, then we end up after millions lay claims on the Pension guarantee corp? Do wwe end up bailing them out too? Look right now everything is in a mess. Most of what has been paid in to these funds got invested in the markets, both stock and bond. You may not have heard yet but the bond markets are in trouble too. With less federal and less tax money coming in cities and towns as well as some states are near the breaking point. Families that have investments can wait for things to hopefully return to what they were, but companies and states have bills coming due now. How do you pay for something when the investment you have is turned upside down?

Why, Galt….that would be virtually impossible.

Maybe if they drink too much virtual beer?

One in the same, Bud!

Cindy, you are funny! I did actually use to work with a whole bunch of good lawyers, so I know they are out there!

My partner worked for a manufacturing company that was run into bankruptcy by the union. They refused to bend on some “wants,” or to believe that their replacements were not fulfilling the jobs as well as the union folks could, thus making inferior products, thus leading to lots of returns, and on and on it went. After a year of the union being on strike, the company went into bankruptcy (again), and closed its doors. The union people were shocked when they realized the co. had been telling the truth. So, EVERYONE was out of a job…

Again, when the union is working the way it was designed to do, to protect the workers, that is invaluable. But like too many organizations, they lose sight of their mandate, or so it seems…

Berg is doing what EVERYONE should do. DEMAND that Fraudbama-From-Kenya prove that he is eligible.

But is that the fault of the manufacturer or of the consumer? The car companies would not have returned to making the gas guzzlers if consumers had not wanted them and purchased them.

But like too many organizations, they lose sight of their mandate, or so it seems…

That’s the rule, not the exception. Groups inevitably become corrupt because people gravitate towards greed and ego fulfillment. Independent thinkers seldom join groups for this reason.

very little of the money has actually even been released as of yet.

As a non-lawyer I think his case has the strongest merit, but I’ve read that other cases are stronger in terms of legal technicalities (ugh!). I could be all wet. I would think that one of these cases would force a presentation of a true Hawaiian BC (if one exists).

I’m not holding my breath… I do learn more about the judicial system when these events occur (like in 2000).

Back to the topic of this thread…

I have mixed feelings about the auto industry bailout. I’ve read the arguments on both sides in this thread. Both sides have their merits.

Right now I’m thinking of all the fallout if there is no auto industry bailout. Grim… The Feds helped Chrysler once before, and they came did well (until recently!). Maybe what’s missing is someone like Lee Iacocca.

Gotta love those Italians!

I love to hear myself talk, so I said it twice

Italians Italian-Americans!

The ink on the bills hasn’t dried yet…:-X

THANK YOU!!! That Electric Datsun kicked the crap out of that Mustang!!!

and still going…
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/whats_good_for_gm.php?dateid=20050406

When I googled what’s good for GM etc, I was trying to pull up the link , what’s good for GM is good for Obama, but it wouldn’t post. Can you imagine that?

I think you have to begin by recognizing that energy is strategic. We’re fighting wars over the control of crude oil yet leaving the design an sale of the engine the is the primary consumer of the gas we distill from that crude oil to he whims of a market. If we had not experienced this sort of thing back in the seventies it would be easy to forgive. but we did and we didn’t learn anything, and we’re screwed yet again.

You are right – it is just a sampling – and I wasn’t able to find anything more recent – or comparative data on each automakers profit – however, I still maintain that when you figure the cost the American automakers have with pensions, unions and the re-tooling of older factories their profit is much less. I am not saying that they are totally without fault due to poor design and business practices, but to just say that they are unable to make a profit because of the automobiles they make compared to foreign automakers is not altogether true either.

Who are you ranting at? This wasn’t written by Larry you moron. Pull your head out of Obama’s ass and stop being so damn ignorant.

Even though BO has said that he doesn’t favor nuclear energy, Warren Buffet bought a plant near here about a month ago. He may lose money initially on his recent purchases (Goldman Saks and GE preferreds, also) but I’d bet on him to come out looking good.

The auto industry is not asking for a gift, like wall street.

They are asking for loans. When the government lent money to Crysler they got it back with interest, and a lot of people got to continue to support their families.

One of my favorite examples of some of the ridiculous behavior shown by some of our American business is the airlines.

They sell air travel. After they sell their air travel they find they can’t pay their bills and in response to that they negotiate lower hourly rates from their unionized flight crews. Now lets just forget that after they do that, the top management gives themselves a nice fat bonus because it’s what they were doing while they were running around negotiating that makes absolutely no sense. They were giving away free air travel in the form of frequent flyer miles.

they couldn’t pay their bill selling air travel so, some brain child up in the airline industry somewhere got the bright idea of “giving away” air travel as the means to balance the books. LOL if they are going to give away air travel, sell cars below the price of manufacturing, etc. they can’t come crying to me about the price of their labor. Because as I see it, the one group of people that needs protection from some of the bullshit decision making that these people make in the name of shareholder value… is the group of people that work for them and actually do the job.

I fear the unions have become the scapegoat for unstrained greed in this country and I say this because I never hear the argument about how the CEO or the shareholder needs make less money. They seem to get theirs no matter what the company is doing. The only one who has to make less money is, well….us

the pensions are huge.

Therein lies the problem. Along with the continuation of their health insurance.

Several years ago, it was stated that for every vehicle that rolled off the assembly line $1500 was tacked on to the price of that vehicle to pay for employee benefits. Today that dollar amount has to be much higher.

I’m half Italian. My Italian Momma made great desserts. What’s on your Dessert Menu?

Drilling rigs on wheels? Maybe?

I see Haliburton riggs on the 101 north of Ukiah… next they will be
Boliburton decal on the side.

1-800-Hows my driving?

Cannoli for me!!

I haven’t advocated against providing assistance, just that any assistance should come with major strings, conditions and accountability.

I’m concerned that some executives took compensation packages and bonuses based on false or non-existent profits (that liabilities weren’t fully taken into consideration). It seems that the investment portfolios for these retirement plans should have had enough liquidity to pay benefits for more than a couple months out. It raises the question as to whether or not the plans were appropriately invested and funded and if those in charge carefully exercised their fiduciary responsibilities (pension plans and their funding is complex and highly regulated).

At this point, I think just about everyone understands that our economic problems are widespread.

Rev. Amy
(In my best Eeyore voice; ..”you ask why, eeeeexactly?”

From the movie Dave;

Dave: I don’t want to tell some eight-year-old kid he’s gotta sleep in the street because we want people to feel better about their *car*. Do *you* want to tell them that?
Secretary of Commerce: [quietly] No sir.
[sits back in his seat and reflects]

.

Dave: According to the OMB, we have seventeen defense contractors who are delinquent in their contracts. Is this true, Frank?
Director of OMB: Uh, I believe so, yes.
Dave: So, even though they’re late, we keep paying them on time?
Director of OMB: Well, in a sense… yeah.

.

Thank you for the video on wounded soldiers…

Why can’t the Big Three file Chapter 11 just like a lot big businesses have done in the past. In fact Circuit City has just done this. Chapter 11 means they can continue doing business and the creditors are assured at some time in the future they will be paid (so much on the dollar).

Sounds like Iraqi recontruction funds.

I must admit when the toops found truck loads of cash or we would hear about pallets of money sent by the Feds being “forklifted”, I thought that was a lot of money to be throwing around, unaccounted for.

This current nightmare makes that look like feeding the elephants peanuts…or maybe it was that creature Pat had locked up in the cage. Hell if I know what they feed that!

Galt, can I get a glass of Chianti? I’ve drunk all of mine.

And THAT

(sorry, fingers obviously slipped–I know I hit the “tab” key but have NO idea of how I hit the “submit” button–but I digress….)
As I started to write……..

And THAT has NOTHING to do with the unions. The companies’ boards of directors and the shareholders are the ones who look out for the price of the stock. Also, as long as the folks in DC weren’t willing to press for better quality in the cars (from enhanced safety features to better gas mileage to better pollution controls), Detroit had no incentives to make improvements. In fact, when Dubya offered tax breaks for people who bought SUVs for “business” purposes (no matter how tangential–if someone volunteered their SUV to drive co-workers to some corporate function, that would qualify as a “legitimate business purpose”), people who were on the edge about buying one of those gas guzzlers now saw a good reason to buy one.

Boeing loves wars- they build the equipment and the airplanes.

It is not the duty of the national treasury to bail out failing out dated companies.

from what I’ve witnessed so far, I’ve found Obambi wishy washy on nuclear power, as he is on all topics!

The problem is there is no easy solution. Nuclear is the cleanest and most powerful form of enery and provides massive amount of jobs, but on the other hand the consequences of a leak are deadly.

It’s a hard place to be in.

nd I must add with all due respect, you don’t know at all what you are talking about.

they are not the last bastions of american manufacturing. this country has a huge steele industry and if we were ever in a real war, world war, the steele would be cut off from the car industry and thrown directly into the immediate need for extra military equipment.

there are many companies that keep our military afloat, some american, some here, some elsewhere.. but to use that topic to excuse a bailout for the auto industry is a copout, a complete copout-

here are just some of the
companies

damn site won’t let me post more than one link for some reason.. ugh

but some of the links of huge contracts i found are Northrop Grunman, Aircraft Safety Equipment, John Deere, Airbus, Lockheed Martin, McDonnell Douglas.. etc

all due respect what a half ass ignorant response-

her safety wasn’t due to or relied on haliburton and these other companies raping americans of billions and billions in profits-

and we are talking “profits”, not “costs”

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING !

SERIOUSLY, giving bush credit for being safe for 8 years.. i mean wow.. what can i say..

if i recall we’ve been safe since pearl harbor was bombed in ww2-

it was on bush’s watch 911 happened.. let’s not forget this -

it is bush’s ill conceived, illegal war, that cost 100′s of thousands of INNOCENT iraqi’s their lives..

jesus i can’t even debate this topic with brain dead people who just don’t get it and bought inot the utter bullshit of the corrupt bush administration.

Bush, Cheney and their ilk should be on trial for treason and war crimes. period.

exactly, and where do they draw the line?

i guess it’s where their pockets are lined with donations to their causes, that they draw the line!

chalk it up to what you want.. i am sick of utter ignorance and brainwashed minds who buy into the bullshit they are sold/told.. whether it be obama or bush and his ilk.

I’m on my 4th extra strength Tylenol in the last hour dealing with horrendous pain.. i can’t find the patience to even discuss this old topic, and such known facts with such brainwashed minds-

i’m moving on from this thread-

LOL-

well even if they’d gotten the name correct, the post still shows head-in-ass theory and just doesn’t get it.

the american auto industry has been faltering for 30 yrs and didn’t fix themselves when given the opportunity.

they are outdated in what they offer and how they operate-

it is not..IT IS NOT the duty of this nation to bail out companies, no matter who the hell they are-

there are actually companies in this country that made a choice, close down or upgrade and change their equipment from building one product and switching to build a whole other product that is of need in this date and time-

let the auto industries change their facilities and build windmills! we can have one standing right next to every house!

(well not exactly, there is the bird safety issue, but you know what i mean)

Unfortunately the big three are too big to let fail. The rust belt is in enough trouble as it is without GM, Ford and Chrysler failing. Liquidating any of these companies would flat-line our economy.

There was plenty of incompetence in the higher reaches of these corporations. Detroit and specifically GM has never really recovered from the oil shocks of the 1970′s. Instead of facing up to CAFE standards they found a huge loophole that you could, well, drive a truck through. It worked for a long time, until oil hit $100.00 a barrel and then some.

G.M. now claims to not have enough money to run past six months. It was not the Unions that got G.M. into this mess. The UAW just took 100% of the burden for healthcare in last contract. G.M.’s contribution was a big fat goose egg and it still is having cash problems.

Union labor only represents 10% of the work force. In the auto industry the UAW has been battered into giving all manner of give backs for job security. The final knife in the ribs is that the workers are still being laid off and factories are still being shuttered even after wage cuts and benefit reductions. The workers get creamed but the C.E.O. pay is not trimmed at all.

There is a excellent reason for the Pension to be bailed out by the government. That is the support of thousands of retired workers. Many of those worker worked their entire productive lives to get those pensions. Please note that there productive lives are now past. Are you really proposing that these elderly people now return to the work force?

If the pension fails it means all those former workers would be left destitute. The Federal guarantee behind the Pension would not support the levels of pay they are getting. Figure them only getting 60% of their present stipend from Uncle Sam, if they are lucky. How does that sound to you, could you make it only only 60% of your take home pay? Remember the only employment option you might have is a greeter at Walmart. Oh and Walmart just closed down because their are no autoworkers to buy their products.

So not only do you have the knock on the economy from Ford or GM shuttering you also have the knock from impoverished pensioners who now only have 60% of their purchasing power. But hey, let the market sort it all out right? Where have we seen that attitude before? Does the Name Herbert Hoover ring a bell?

It is easy to shout “let it fail” it is facile to complain about “government handouts” It is another thing to try to live through such a market correction. Bailing out Detroit is a dicey proposition but doing nothing; letting either the companies or pension fail is not a real option. We have to pull the baby out of the burning building first. We can worry about who set the fire later.

Look if a peanut farmer from Georgia found a way to rescue Chrysler a Community Organizer from Chicago can find a way to save Detroit. A targeted loan that requires the company getting it to manufacture high MPG vehicles is doable. They could further sweeten the deal by offering consumers no or super-low interest loans if they turn in a truck or SUV for scrapping. We just gave almost a trillion dollars away to Wall Street with no strings attached; we can certainly afford to rescue one of the prime movers of our economy. At the very least we can insure that hard working stiffs don’t have to spend the last years of their lives living under a freeway overpass. Or is that too much to ask of your tax dollars?

Wild Child, I agree with you. But are we going to learn from any of this? If people hadn’t been so in love with Reagan and allowed him to deregulate everything, we would not now be circling the drain.

And in this economic climate is Mr. Obama still considering a week-long inauguration festival? Can we really afford a lot of parties courtesy of tax payers?

Cookie Grandmother, I agree with you. And unfortunately I find myself agreeing with Mr. Obama on this issue and for the first time I’m actually glad he won this election. Saying “too bad, so sad” doesn’t address this problem. Not bailing out the auto industry right now would lead to total economic collapse in this country. For every job lost in the auto industry, a whole lot of people and businesses are affected. People who work in the auto industry pay taxes, they support local businesses and their tax dollars will help this country get back on its feet. If we continue to have massive unemployment then our tax base becomes less, and we will have a bigger depression than we had in the thirties because we have a heck of a lot more people here – many of them armed and in your face. You think we, all of us, can survive millions more Americans unemployed? I don’t think so. We might not like it; we may not agree with this bailout, but I sure hope we choose to help each other.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/11/bailout_nation_obama_the_big_3.html

Interesting article about the big three bail. I’m not sure if the type of bankruptcy referred to would be Chapter 11, and what they would do to the present stock holders.

There are many factors to consider, including the fact that most defined benefit plans have gone the way of the dinosaur, and the tax payers left holding the bag for these pensions probably won’t get similar benefits in the future.

I don’t think that any retirement plans were ever intended to replace 100% of an employees working wage, and I’m also not sure if the PBGC maximum monthly benefit tables would really bring the retirees down to 60% (again, there are many laws and regulations covering pensions, and it is possible that these plans would place a great burden on the PBGC if the companies were allowed to fail at once, the insurance premiums most likely don’t factor in such drastic economic conditions).

bingo
Blaming the unions became popular under Reaganomics..Greed was only good for the CEO’s, but sinful for the working stiff. Wealth shifted upward and more people entered poverty. Enter Bush II, which is only Reaganomics on steroids and we are dealing with the effects. Remember Bush’s plan for reconstruction after Katrina..awarding large no-bid contracts to favorable companies and screwing the employees on minimum wage requirements. Helping tax paying Americans is akin to socialism and welfare. Bailing out large financial institutions that continue with their bad decision making,no restrictions, and flagrant waste of money, is somehow more palatable to the American psyche.

Remember the Big Three are asking for a small fraction of what AIG burned in one month, while entertaining themselves at spa resorts and hunting trips. At least the Big Three produce a real tangible product that serves a purpose rather than speculative unregulated credit swap derivatives.

Finally some wisdom. First of all as a retired GM machine repair journyman anyone who thinks a machine operator is automaticaly qualified to fix todays industrial machinery has never stepped inside a modern manufacturing plant. Also the defined benefit pension I earned over 30 years is not up to 20% of my working wage. It is to supplement SS and retirement savings.
When did the PUMA New Dem. Party become anti-union or have the republicans really taken over this site.
The price advantage enjoyed by the foreign car makers is the lack of legacy costs. They pay similar wages and benifits to keep the union at bay but are currently not paying for the older workforce and pension obligations. What happens when their workforce becomes older and begins to retire. The state of PA gave volkswagon no taxes for 10 years, built an interstate and rail spur to the plant that Chrysler built for them to make cars. What happened after their 10 years was up? They closed the plant and moved to Mexico. These foreign companies have no obligation to stand with this country if they are needed. All the car plants were converted to war equipment during WWII and won the war.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122645159441719325.html

Another interesting article on the bail out. The concept of sustainability should not be overlooked.

Although the unions may need to make more concessions, overall I hold management primarily responsible for the problems these companies are experiencing. It’s not the workers’ fault. (My guess is that management, the state and federal government and the unions all probably need to share responsibility, with the lion’s share going to management.)

Granted unions have already made concessions, but just look at the types of benefits non-union workers have seen taken away over the last few decades. I can’t help but wonder how many non-union workers even have a pension plan to be concerned about.

The other thing I’m curious about is exactly how much a bail out of GM would help the parts plants in China, as right now I believe many of the parts used in GM’s U.S. plants are made there (even though the scrap rate is high, it’s supposedly cheaper for them to make the parts there). I would hope that we could encourage them to find a cost effective way to make more parts in this country (I believe Toyota and Honda make many of their parts here).

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