Another interesting article on the bail out. The concept of sustainability should not be overlooked.

Although the unions may need to make more concessions, overall I hold management primarily responsible for the problems these companies are experiencing. It’s not the workers’ fault. (My guess is that management, the state and federal government and the unions all probably need to share responsibility, with the lion’s share going to management.)

Granted unions have already made concessions, but just look at the types of benefits non-union workers have seen taken away over the last few decades. I can’t help but wonder how many non-union workers even have a pension plan to be concerned about.

The other thing I’m curious about is exactly how much a bail out of GM would help the parts plants in China, as right now I believe many of the parts used in GM’s U.S. plants are made there (even though the scrap rate is high, it’s supposedly cheaper for them to make the parts there). I would hope that we could encourage them to find a cost effective way to make more parts in this country (I believe Toyota and Honda make many of their parts here).

Remember the Big Three are asking for a small fraction of what AIG burned in one month, while entertaining themselves at spa resorts and hunting trips. At least the Big Three produce a real tangible product that serves a purpose rather than speculative unregulated credit swap derivatives.

Interesting article about the big three bail. I’m not sure if the type of bankruptcy referred to would be Chapter 11, and what they would do to the present stock holders.

There are many factors to consider, including the fact that most defined benefit plans have gone the way of the dinosaur, and the tax payers left holding the bag for these pensions probably won’t get similar benefits in the future.

I don’t think that any retirement plans were ever intended to replace 100% of an employees working wage, and I’m also not sure if the PBGC maximum monthly benefit tables would really bring the retirees down to 60% (again, there are many laws and regulations covering pensions, and it is possible that these plans would place a great burden on the PBGC if the companies were allowed to fail at once, the insurance premiums most likely don’t factor in such drastic economic conditions).

There was plenty of incompetence in the higher reaches of these corporations. Detroit and specifically GM has never really recovered from the oil shocks of the 1970′s. Instead of facing up to CAFE standards they found a huge loophole that you could, well, drive a truck through. It worked for a long time, until oil hit $100.00 a barrel and then some.

G.M. now claims to not have enough money to run past six months. It was not the Unions that got G.M. into this mess. The UAW just took 100% of the burden for healthcare in last contract. G.M.’s contribution was a big fat goose egg and it still is having cash problems.

Union labor only represents 10% of the work force. In the auto industry the UAW has been battered into giving all manner of give backs for job security. The final knife in the ribs is that the workers are still being laid off and factories are still being shuttered even after wage cuts and benefit reductions. The workers get creamed but the C.E.O. pay is not trimmed at all.

There is a excellent reason for the Pension to be bailed out by the government. That is the support of thousands of retired workers. Many of those worker worked their entire productive lives to get those pensions. Please note that there productive lives are now past. Are you really proposing that these elderly people now return to the work force?

If the pension fails it means all those former workers would be left destitute. The Federal guarantee behind the Pension would not support the levels of pay they are getting. Figure them only getting 60% of their present stipend from Uncle Sam, if they are lucky. How does that sound to you, could you make it only only 60% of your take home pay? Remember the only employment option you might have is a greeter at Walmart. Oh and Walmart just closed down because their are no autoworkers to buy their products.

So not only do you have the knock on the economy from Ford or GM shuttering you also have the knock from impoverished pensioners who now only have 60% of their purchasing power. But hey, let the market sort it all out right? Where have we seen that attitude before? Does the Name Herbert Hoover ring a bell?

It is easy to shout “let it fail” it is facile to complain about “government handouts” It is another thing to try to live through such a market correction. Bailing out Detroit is a dicey proposition but doing nothing; letting either the companies or pension fail is not a real option. We have to pull the baby out of the burning building first. We can worry about who set the fire later.

Look if a peanut farmer from Georgia found a way to rescue Chrysler a Community Organizer from Chicago can find a way to save Detroit. A targeted loan that requires the company getting it to manufacture high MPG vehicles is doable. They could further sweeten the deal by offering consumers no or super-low interest loans if they turn in a truck or SUV for scrapping. We just gave almost a trillion dollars away to Wall Street with no strings attached; we can certainly afford to rescue one of the prime movers of our economy. At the very least we can insure that hard working stiffs don’t have to spend the last years of their lives living under a freeway overpass. Or is that too much to ask of your tax dollars?

well even if they’d gotten the name correct, the post still shows head-in-ass theory and just doesn’t get it.

the american auto industry has been faltering for 30 yrs and didn’t fix themselves when given the opportunity.

they are outdated in what they offer and how they operate-

it is not..IT IS NOT the duty of this nation to bail out companies, no matter who the hell they are-

there are actually companies in this country that made a choice, close down or upgrade and change their equipment from building one product and switching to build a whole other product that is of need in this date and time-

let the auto industries change their facilities and build windmills! we can have one standing right next to every house!

(well not exactly, there is the bird safety issue, but you know what i mean)

I’m on my 4th extra strength Tylenol in the last hour dealing with horrendous pain.. i can’t find the patience to even discuss this old topic, and such known facts with such brainwashed minds-

i’m moving on from this thread-

i guess it’s where their pockets are lined with donations to their causes, that they draw the line!

if i recall we’ve been safe since pearl harbor was bombed in ww2-

it was on bush’s watch 911 happened.. let’s not forget this -

it is bush’s ill conceived, illegal war, that cost 100′s of thousands of INNOCENT iraqi’s their lives..

jesus i can’t even debate this topic with brain dead people who just don’t get it and bought inot the utter bullshit of the corrupt bush administration.

Bush, Cheney and their ilk should be on trial for treason and war crimes. period.

her safety wasn’t due to or relied on haliburton and these other companies raping americans of billions and billions in profits-

and we are talking “profits”, not “costs”