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The Bush Administration’s War Crimes Problem

(bumped up by NoQuarter)

George Bush and Dick Cheney, and other members of their Administration who were involved in setting or executing policies on rendition, harsh interrogation, and secret prison camps, may want to rethink foreign vacations once they leave office. Why? Because there are several foreign jurists who are likely to pursue war crimes charges against George Bush and his colleagues.

Who is in the crosshairs besides Bush and Cheney? Don Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzales, John Ashcroft, Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, George Tenet, Director of CIA Ops–Jim Pavitt, Cofer Black, and John Yoo–just to name a few. This is just a list off the top of my head. Hopefully these guys are not planning to grab some beach time in the French Riviera or Aruba. In fact, their traveling days may be kaput. As soon as George Bush ends his term on 20 January, 2009 I expect we will start hearing about warrants for his arrest. We already have CIA officers and contractors on trial in Italy for their role in kidnapping Abu Omar, a muslim cleric living in Italy and sending him to Egypt, where he was tortured.

The cleric’s wife, Ghali Nabila, said her husband, Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, known as Abu Omar, was taken from Italy and transferred to a prison in Egypt, where, she said, he was repeatedly tortured. While acknowledging a program of “extraordinary rendition,” or abducting terrorism suspects outside the United States, the Bush administration claims that no one is sent to nations that torture.

The trial is underway but delayed while a judge decides whether information of a current witness will jeopardize Italian national security. A conviction in this trial, especially in Italy, which is one of the most conservative governments in Europe, will likely give impetus to more charges and potentially more trials.

Phil Giraldi, a former CIA colleague, wrote an excellent piece last December outlining some of the war crimes issues lurking on the horizon for CIA officers. Phil wrote:

Personal accountability has all but disappeared from the American political system. Bill Clinton lied to his entire cabinet about Monica Lewinsky and not a single cabinet member resigned in protest after he was forced to recant. When Alberto Gonzales lied repeatedly during testimony before Congress everyone knew exactly what he was doing but no leading Democrat was willing to impeach him. The hopelessly incompetent Michael Brown was able to resign from FEMA without sanction to “avoid further distraction from the ongoing mission” and later even blamed everyone else for his shortcomings. Condoleezza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, Tommy Franks, George Tenet, and Paul Bremer were all rewarded for their incompetence, some with medals and some with promotions. Recent resignations from the Bush administration stemming from the massive policy failures of the past seven years have frequently been couched in terms of “wanting to spend more time with my family” though sometimes a bit of candor creeps in a la Trent Lott, who believes it is time to step down and follow the money as a lobbyist. Public Diplomacy Tsarina Karen Hughes arguably plans to do both, returning to Texas to rejoin her family while also cashing in through lucrative speaking engagements. During her two and a half years of Texas-style soccer mom diplomacy at State Department and in spite of a large budget, Hughes only succeeded in increasing the number of foreigners who actively dislike the United States. Never is a resignation from government service framed in terms of “Hey, I screwed up.”

The embrace of illegal detentions and torture are among the truly horrific decisions that can be attributed to the Bush White House. It is ironic to read the media accounts surrounding the recent discovery by shocked U.S. Marines of an alleged al-Qaeda torture center in Iraq’s Diyala province because the Marines work for a government that itself publicly embraces torture as an interrogation technique. And it is not just the White House. Torture is bipartisan. The recent House of Representatives intelligence appropriations bill included a clause that requires CIA to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its interrogation and detention policies. One hundred and ninety-nine Congressmen from both parties voted “no.” Even if some of the Congressmen voted against the bill for other reasons, there is a strong sense that many politicians consider torture to be perfectly okay.

Spanish justice, Baltasar Garzon, is likely to be an important player in these matters. Garzon is the one who pursed charges against Augusto Pinochet, who was arrested in England and fought to avoid extradition to Spain for war crimes. Much of the legal basis for these charges rests on the Geneva Conventions, created in the aftermath of World War II. PBS reported on the matter back in 1999:

After the war, world leaders met in Geneva, Switzerland to revise the rules of war. Their goal was to outline the distinction between “civilized” warfare and savage butchery. The Geneva Conventions state that people who are not fighting, including soldiers who have laid down their weapons, must be treated humanely. Murder, mutilation and torture are all outlawed, as are hostage-taking and degrading treatment.

This will create some interesting challenges for the Obama Administration and likely Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. I am sure there are many Americans who will bristle at the idea that foreign governments are trying our former leaders for what many in the United States perceive as legitimate efforts to protect this country. But there are many overseas who think otherwise and I am sure there is a strong minority, if not majority, in this country who share the save view.

The tension between international law and the detention of individuals believed by the Bush Administration to be terrorists will be at the top of the nettlesome issues awaiting the Obama team. The New York Times reported today:

That concern is at the center of a debate among national security, human rights and legal experts that has intensified since the election. Even some liberals are arguing that to deal realistically with terrorism, the new administration should seek Congressional authority for preventive detention of terrorism suspects deemed too dangerous to release even if they cannot be successfully prosecuted.

“You can’t be a purist and say there’s never any circumstance in which a democratic society can preventively detain someone,” said one civil liberties lawyer, David D. Cole, a Georgetown law professor who has been a critic of the Bush administration.

Although the nation has long had limited legal procedures for detaining dangerous people who have not been convicted of a crime, the issue has become particularly controversial in the context of Guantánamo, where some detainees have been held for almost seven years without being charged.

Whether the Obama administration should push for a preventive detention law has inspired “a very hot and serious debate,” said Ken Gude, a national security scholar at the liberal Center for American Progress, adding, “I’ve had conversations with progressives who think it is a good idea and conservatives who think it’s a terrible idea.”

If Obama’s vote on the FISA matter was any indication, George Bush and his former colleagues may not have much to worry about. But that is not likely to be the case outside of our nation’s boundaries.

  • Dawnelle

    (mouth agape) WoWWW!

  • Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Ruh roh!

  • Seattle Moss

    Larry,
    All I have to say is that Obama better back off any thought of investigating and prosecuting those that kept us safe during the past seven years.
    Why?

    The democrats started the special prosecutor attacks by initiating the Iran contra probe. The republicans played payback with the whitewater probe.
    Now the democrats want to go after republicans when we all know of the uncertain time we lived in after 911.
    Yes many mistakes were made I never voted for a republican but we need to move on and not punish America to the world.
    Doesn’t anyone realize how weak we will be and how that will embolden the enemy.
    This is National Suicide!!
    As a republican said the other day..You start with these investigations democrats…
    You will be punished someday

  • Diana L. C.

    Let’s all chip in to gift “W” with a going away party in France.

  • Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    French Guyana (Devil’s Island) would be more apropos? :shock:

  • Dawnelle

    LOL @ pizza and department store

  • http://www.anvp.typepad.com/soldier4hillary soldier4hillary

    Maybe my opinion is biased….but here is the thing…everyone is upset now about being lied to in regards to this war. The MSM pushed the narrative and everyone believed. They sold you on the war. Got it. You took there word as truth about the war without any questions.

    Individuals like Senator Clinton voted based on evidence provided by Colin Powell. The same Colin Powell who Obama supporters were nearly orgasmic with his endorsement on how it was such a big plus and proved all kinds of crap. As long as he is endorsing Obama Colin Powell has wonderful judgement. They will now overlook everything and focus soley on the fact he endorsed Obama.

    The problem I have is this. Instead of people looking for someone to blame, why not use your own judgement and do your own research so when things go wrong you can blame yourself. The media has done the exact same thing with this election they did then.

    Yes. People have died and become casualties of war. That is why it is important to know who you are putting in office. No, I dont want to see any of this administration charged overseas. Because despite what you may think, feel or believe, you have the right to research information yourself. To blame someone because they didnt tell the whole story (the media) or spinned it to suit there needs (bush admin) is no fault but your own.

    Have we been attacked since? No. I swear to god if they try to charge them here in the U.S I would rip this uniform off so fast to throw to the closest trash heap. If the Democratic party is foolish enough to do this. But can get on national television and make excuses for Ayers, Ayers? a domestic terrorist? Who actually placed bombs in buildings, plotted to bomb a military installation, and who claimed enough was not done, and to make matters worse. Who was recently on Good Morning America. Who did not go to jail for his crimes. Who was pictured standing with our countries flag under his feet.

    Never. I would lead the charge to capitol hill.

  • Dawnelle

    Patsy why have we not CHARGED the SAND BANKS of Saudi ARabia since the pilots all came from there?

    doesn’t that ever bug you? I know it’s over but W sat for WAY WAY too long reading a stupid book to kids when all hell was breaking loose – I can’t forgive him for that

    or katrina

    sorry

  • Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Please visit our electronics department on the 5th floor. In the accessories pavilion we are running a special on tinfoil hats, only 2 for 9.99 Quatloos! With all the NWO talk and Chicken Little sky is falling paranoia around here lately I thought we would run a special. :shock:

  • Dawnelle

    LOL quite an imagination – love it!

  • http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

    Rumsfeld. Raw slime. He was on the board of directors of the swiss company that sold two nuclear reactors to north korea.

    He was CEO of Searle when they decided to trash saccharin so that it would make way for aspartame. They buried all their scientific evidence and the FDA did not want to approve aspartame. But old rummy used his slimey power to strong arm them into it.

    I wonder how that class action is coming along? The bastard put a substance on the market that should never have been marketed.

    Don Rumsfeld is raw evil. He should be executed in the public square.

    Google rumsfeld and searle.

  • ritamary

    Bush already bought a ranch in Paraguay. The United States doesn’t have an extradition treaty with Paraguay. I wonder if Bush will invite any of his enablers like Condi, Gonzo, Rummy to share the ranch with him. (Isn’t Paraguay where some Nazi war criminals went to live after World War II?)

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Believe it or not I think we can right this sinking ship with imagination and humor. This is where I am heading now that the campaign is over.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Wow I did not know that about Darn Rumpswab. :shock: I make it a point to stay away from artificial sweeteners as well as processed sugar. Its a little harder to shop and dine out, but a good idea for your health.

  • http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

    I won’t even get into that head case John Ashcroft. The man who annointed himself with olive oil.

    He took more than a million in payouts over a period of time from the drug company that produced Clariton, to keep the drug from going generic. His stunt cost consumers billions. It came to light during his last run and that’s how he got his ass kicked out of the senate. So what does George do? Hire him as Atty General of all things so that he could cover up the statue of blind justice because he found it too sexy, the pervert.

    Christian, my ass.

  • Dawnelle

    I’ll tell ya what? it’s gonna take a BOAT load of it

  • Seattle Moss

    As much as all these guys are wrong the worst thing America can do is be guilty as charged.
    Where’s the prosecutions going stop??

    I guess everyone that supported Bush is guilty. Everyone that initially supported the Iraq war is guilty.
    I’m not guilty.. I supported neither because I have a brain enough to get the facts.
    Having said that I don’t feel that America or I should have to suffer for others mistakes.
    By being guilty in the eyes of the world makes America defeated and the terrorists win.
    No wonder the world and Alqueda wanted Obama to win.
    Why does everyone want to commit national suicide.
    I say stick it up your azz..world.
    We are still the greatest country for good in the world, warts and all..
    and if you don’t like it tough s*it!!

  • tampagurl

    Dawnelle, I thought he did that as to not panic anyone. I know Bush did a lot of things wrong, but I truly don’t believe he did it for personal gain or power. IMHO, I think it was to protect us at all cost.

    So whether his method was right or wrong. I must acknowledge I have felt pretty safe since 9/11

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Christian, my ass.

    I noticed the good people of faith never advertise their faith. They live their faith and are kind to others and don’t require nor seek we even notice. I include generically spiritual people in this. And no offense to humanists/atheists as they also can be equally caring and generous people.

  • http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

    Saudi is the worst of the lot with human rights violations too. especially to women. horrible. Just horrible people. But they know own something like 11 percent of America and George enjoyed holding hands with Prince bandar. They are all family friends.

  • Dawnelle

    hopelessly stuck on “the yellow stuff” in my ice tea

    gave up the blue for the yellow and now I hear the yellow is just as bad but it takes less than white and forget about the pink that’s been bad for way long

    lmao

    ridiculous and I still drink my diet pepsi just not as much

    hey I don’t drink liquor or beer or coffee or smoke cigarettes

    I NEED SOMETHING !! LOL

  • margarita

    Wow, I hadn’t heard about the Paraguay ranch until just now so I googled it and it happened in 2006. Amazing…thanks.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    I would suggest getting off of the fake sugar. It can’t be good. I drink organic coffee and organic skim milk as my vice, no sweeteners of any kind. And lots of plain H2O. I am certainly no paragon of virtue or a health food nut and only offer suggestions. :mrgreen:

  • tampagurl

    I’ve been using something called Diabeti sweet, it’s Acesulfame-K whatever that is. Probably the worst thing out there but it pours and tastes just like real sugar.

  • Seattle Moss

    Tampa.. Now I don’t feel safe.
    Like a good goalie Bush has kept us from getting attacked at all costs.
    Now the shield is being dismantled because the intellectuals feel that things should be done in a pure and just way by the text book.
    This is an evil world and sometimes you have to break the rules when you are dealing with enemies that have no rules.
    The democrats think this war is over or it’s about ghosts in Afganistan. They are fools…This war has only just started.
    One attack and the democrats are history.
    It’s that simple…
    Are you listening Keith (the traitor) Overbite

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    You can get used to drinking coffee and tea without the sweeteners.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Maybe they got Hitler’s DNA from the KGB and are planning to clone him at the ranch? :shock:

  • tampagurl

    So true Seattle,
    I can’t help but wonder if Obama will be like Carter and reduce our military to the point we can’t even protect ourselves let alone our neighbors.

  • Seattle Moss

    Galt…I used to be a latte liberal until I realized that they hate America.
    I stopped going to starbucks a year ago
    Too many rolex commies frequenting the place.
    Bad enough being stuck behind a dieseling Marxist Mercedes waiting in the drive thru

    Now I just go to McD’s and get myself a large coffee which lasts me all day.
    Savings per year….$800

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    ADMIN pointer, nothing urgent: the spam filters seem to be working in overdrive zapping things that are not spam FYI.

  • tampagurl

    oooooh, don’t know about that Galt. It tastes pretty bad without sweetener. If I had to do that, I’d probably be better off just having water.

  • Dawnelle

    yea that happened to me a few minutes ago

    I’m spent anyway

    gnite bloggers

    it’s been a challenging debate with very few names called

    I like when that happens

    Peace out (yes I say that)

  • bemused

    Humor contributed to survival in WWII concentration camps. I think the tinfoil hats will have to be supplemented with Tesla shields (completely enclosed in copper)though.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    If you drink fine teas and coffee I beg to differ. I’m enjoying some nice fair-trade organic coffee right now, and don’t miss the sweet at all since it tastes great. One trick is to get a mild to medium roast.

  • Seattle Moss

    Tampa you’re correct..

    What is not being realized by most people is that this war is not about governments or sovereign states like in the past. Bush has played dirty against individuals residing in terrorist sympathizing states.
    It doesn’t matter how big your military is if one person can get hold of a dirty nuke or biological device.
    With one attack western civilization can end as we know it..Why?
    Because if the terrorists succeed and blowing up a town say with 200k people then land will be worth nothing, insurance will be unobtainable for everyone and our money will be worth nothing.
    People just don’t get it!!

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    I never liked Starbucks anyway, their roast is way to dark for my taste. But I do get lattes when I go out on occasion at another cheapy chain place.

  • EWard

    Seattle Moss

    Kudos to your post! I agree with you that prosecuting the Bush Administration for war crimes is a non-starter. The voters in 2004 gave President Bush the authority to continue his foreign policy. Should we punish them too? FYI, I did not vote for Bush.

  • Seattle Moss

    I’m really not that cheap..
    Lattes in the morning can give me a stomach ache.
    I like drip because there is more coffee and I don’t have to wait.

    Peet’s Coffee is my favorite

  • tampagurl

    I used to drink Hawaiian coffee but I can’t justify the cost anymore so now I drink that pod coffee.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Yeah, when Opampers looks at us he blasts an evil mind ray. You would need the extra shielding for that.

    BTW I am talking beyond survival with the humor. I am talking about exposing what has happened in order to prevent it from happening again.

  • bemused

    Looking at this list of rogues–brings back such memories of daily shock, but not awe–and each of these people as we got to know them, they were as repulsive as O’s friends. If there is any justice they will be followed by their crimes and tried as anyone else. Maybe they kept us safe. But maybe they so trashed our name that someone like O could get elected, and didn’t care. Then the end doesn’t even justify the means.

  • Seattle Moss

    Even though I sound like a wing nut lately I’m very much involved in fair trade coffee and other environmental causes.
    I have my church set up on fair trade and make the rounds during coffee hour selling bags.

    Fair trade…Very good for song birds

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    This is BS. I am so tired of the whining about Bush. Guess what? Everyone here is alive and typing BECAUSE OF BUSH. I can tell you – and it’s coming soon – this country is going to be attacked in a way that makes 9/11 look like a birthday party. It’s coming. And OVomit won’t know what the F to do and it’s BECAUSE everyone knows that we just put a total America hating weakling in the White House. I CAN’T WAIT. Because maybe the liberals will stop blaming EVERYTHING, all the way down to toe fungus, on Bush. Maybe then they can take some blame for all of their messes too. Like Fannie and Freddie for starters…all the way to OVomit.

  • Seattle Moss

    Where have you been all night.
    Tampa and I have been holding down the fort here.
    Glad to see you’re on the same page as me!

  • tampagurl

    What you said reminds me of this election. If you want to be a nice guy and run a “respectable campaign” you lose!

    Same with the war, my father used to say…Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

  • bemused

    Since there is no rational discussion between the two sides, might as well go for the gut one way or another. I’d vote for humor, it can shoot deep and stick long.

  • mkm125

    Galt–that bitter taste is Starbuck’s special ability to “over roast.” On another note–thanks for all you humor on this site…..

  • jwrjr

    LJ’s article describes why I am worried that GWB will do something to try to stay in office. (Alternatively, he might have some sort of deal with Obama, but that doesn’t seem too likely. After all, BHO always keeps his promises, right?) I will stop worrying on Jan. 21 if nothing illegal happens.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Hey Handsome!

    I’m here. Just looking forward to laughing my azz off when this country is nuked and everyone says “why didn’t we defend ourselves?” And we all have to remind the liberals that they DISARMED us, and OVomit went around the world on his America Sucks World Tour talking about how much he hates America while our enemies sharpen their knives. When liberals are running through the streets holding their injured, dying family members in their arms, maybe they will think it was a good idea to pay attention to defense and not put their faith in a pansy who wants to go have TEA with the head of Iran. This is the stuff that makes my head explode. We keep getting warnings about being attacked and all these people can do is whine about our military and defense. Good luck with that. When OVomit disarms us, it will be on the Dems. And if anything happens to me, or my family, it’s on THEM. It’ll be great to look back on the Bush years as the “GOOD OLD DAYS” when we could walk the streets in freedom and peace. Those days are OVER. Build your bunkers folks ’cause the wing nuts are in charge now.

  • Snickers

    I don’t like Bush or his administration. I think they’re liars and crooks. But that said we are in an ECONOMIC DISASTER. We cannot afford special prosecutors or special anything. We need to fix this country – our infrastructure – our jobs. We need to take care of Americans now. That should be our priority. Anything else at this point is only a distraction.

  • tampagurl

    I’ve been defending Bush so much, I had to go look at my voter registration card because I thought I was a republican :)

    Funny thing is Obama turned my sister into a Republican too. She even listens to Rush Limbauh now. LOL

  • Seattle Moss

    Exactly..
    The MSM are traitors to the American people. The Iraq war could have been won with proper resolve. Instead you have Keith( the traitor bastard) overbite undermining America at every chance. Not to mention his love for the anti-American obama and his hatred of women.
    What’s it going to take..A missile up his butt.. I don’t know!

    Overbite is starting to put on weight. I wouldn’t know any of this except that I was stuck in a hotel last week without NQ.

  • mkm125

    For those in Houston, Katz’s Coffee is Fair Trade and pretty excellent. It ranks up there with Pete’s Coffee in my opinion. They ship anywhere in the US for free. If interested..

    http://www.katzcoffee.com/store.php

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Obviously Bush was president for the past 8 years and there have been no attacks on our soil, at least that we know of. Its possible some things that have occurred were reported as domestic non-terrorist events in order not to spread fear and panic. My point is Bush was president, but there is also an infrastructure invloved that transcends who presidents are. These dedicated career professionals have been the ones doing the actual work keeping us safe. And these people will continue to work under the new administration.

    Any wholesale changes you are alluding to if they are real will take time and will get resistance from the career professionals who will work around whatever they can. I personally would not act as an alarmist. If the sky falls, it falls. But if it doesn’t I was wise not to put fear out there unnecessarily.

    Like it or not, Opampers will be the next president, barring some major miracle of one of the lawsuits. And just to be clear not all liberal people blame Bush for everything. I am a left leaner who was against the Iraq war and fought him on it, as is my right. But I do not blame him for everything, and thank him for anything good he has done.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    I didn’t vote for Bush either time, but I have a very different feeling about Iraq. I am GOP now, was Independent. After what I have seen this election, I will NEVER vote for a Democrat EVER EVER EVER AGAIN. No way. And I will campaign hard against any down ticket Dems too. America is a joke right now. Obama? Wow. I just can’t BELIEVE it happened. I still can’t accept all of the crap I saw this year. And I’m TERRIFIED for my loved ones to have to live here.

  • rolling_thunder

    Agree. Let it go. Move on. It’ll be a huge distraction to a failing economy. Skip it. When the moving van drives away, all eyes will be on BuckO H SlObama. He better focus and not take us down the shetter with him. Going after Bush is so yesterday. A day late and a dollar short. Haven’t we suffered enough? BuckO needs to concentrate and stop playing grown-up. This is his first job where he has to do some work. He better man up. All eyes will be watching his every move.

  • tampagurl

    Are you kidding? I don’t think wild horses could keep Obama away from the reigns of power. He’s not about to share it with anyone.

  • rolling_thunder

    It likes to zap my Obot jokes.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Your welcome! :mrgreen:

  • sowsear

    Someone recently was talking about water rights being bought up in a large area in S. America bordering or including several countries; also someone buying up water rights in TX, I think. One of these persons was Ted Turner. He might have been the one in SA. The person who blogged this info was also trying to find a possible link to the wheat virus problem and why the US was not supporting research to contain the spread of this virus.
    Does anyone remember seeing these comments?

  • Seattle Moss

    Hello Beautiful!
    You say that as if it came from my own mouth.
    The democrats are toast if anything happens on their watch.
    56 million of us voted against Obama cause we know he is weak..One attack and the mob will turn against these fairys

    You asked about FReepers…
    Free Republic

    That’s my other site I like beside Mark Levin

    Liberty and Freedom

    Sometimes you have to defend freedom
    Now is our time!

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Galt, I know you are trying to make light of what is going to happen to this country. I don’t buy it, sorry. We are sitting ducks now and I guess maybe you might want to read all of the threats we are getting and allusions to something “big and bad” happening. Either way, I have seen OVomit IN HIS OWN WORDS talk about DISARMING this country. HE SAID IT. That makes me sick. He’s a total moron about defense. I’m not going to make nice about this stuff. I would prefer to live out my life in peace and not be occupied by OVomit’s friends.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    NOTE: this comment was in reply to FRAUD’s “This is BS” comment above.

  • rolling_thunder

    I wrote the same thing but it got zapped into the spam box. We need to move on and not get into this distraction. Obutthead is trying to distract again. He needs to man up, focus and not take us down the shetter. This is his first job where he has to at least appear like he’s doing something.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Handsome…I stole this from someone else…”They will have to pry my freedoms and liberties out of my cold, dead hands.” I am so dreading January 20th, praying that one of the 10,000 reasons he should be DISQUALIFIED come to fruition. I still think whatever God we believe in will show mercy and get him out of our hair. The attack is for sure. That’s the day I tell the wing nuts “I told you so.” Actually it’s getting close to time to tattoo “I told you so” on my forehead. LOL.

    IF they try this crap with the Fairness Doctrine, the Civilian Military Force, etc. All the OVomit “I wish I could be Adolf” nonsense…you WILL see a revolt of major proportions. Civil War? Maybe. It won’t be the first time on our soil.

  • tampagurl

    Galt, I think we should all stay on our toes. Remember Bush admin. had warning of the 9/11 attack and they didn’t take it seriously or something. Based on what Biden said I think they were told something in their security briefing.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Galt, I know you are trying to make light of what is going to happen to this country.

    Not true. I am making light of the paranoia about Obama.

    HE SAID IT.

    He said a lot of things and we should know not to put too much stock into his statements. Look at his cabinet and appointments for a clue where things are heading. He’s not putting Ayers and Rezko in his cabinet. Why don’t you wait and see what he actually does before passing judgment? Mind you, this is not a good situation with a president we are not sure of. But it is what it is and spreading fear is counterproductive, considering he has not even been sworn in yet. Don’t forget what I said, there are career professionals in the ranks who transcend presidents.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Uhhh…these threats are EVERYWHERE. Al Queda has said they WILL be pulling one off bigger than 9/11. Look at the heads of China and Russia going to visit Castro. Check out what’s going on with Iran and Israel. And all the wing nuts care about it Universal Health Care. Ughhhh….

  • Seattle Moss

    Galt,
    “but there is also an infrastructure invloved that transcends who presidents are. These dedicated career professionals have been the ones doing the actual work keeping us safe. And these people will continue to work under the new administration.”

    and who set up that infrastructure..Evil people like Ashcroft who checked out every Muslim in the country.
    True American hero!

  • rolling_thunder

    Try going to the dept of agriculture site for wheat virus links. Wheat is used as a pawn..severe price swings every few years. Is the virus real or a made up story to bring the high costs down which will hurt the grower?

    The wheat with the highest protein count gets shipped to Japan..go figure.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    You are welcome to your opinion, and of course I disagree violently. But it’s your opinion. I assume you know from our chats that I will NEVER give OVomit a chance. I will permanently be a member of the resistance against him. I’ve joined EVERY resistance movement I can find and I will pitch in to stop him from all of his nefarious nonsense. He’s a danger to this country. Period. And I will NEVER get all “Kumbaya” about that scumbag. I KNOW who he is and what he really thinks of this country.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    I’m not saying we should put our guard down. Regardless of what Biden said any time of any day something could happen. But we don’t want to spread fear beyond being prudent and vigilant in a sensible way.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    It’s amazing. You can’t even say thanks to Bush for keeping us safe, because then they give the credit to someone else. Well if Bush has nothing to do with our military or defense, and he didn’t keep us SAFE, then I guess he also had nothing to do with Iraq, if you follow Galt’s logic. You can’t have it both ways.

  • Seattle Moss

    When we got attacked we all looked to Bush to keep us safe at any price. I didn’t hear anything back then about due process or whatever. Just get the bad guys no matter what.
    I said to myself back then.. If you can keep us safe I will thank you even though I didn’t vote for you.
    Thank you Mr President…You kept us safe!

  • rolling_thunder

    Better prepare an ‘emergency backpack’ and stock up. I heard that spam is selling like mad now because it lasts for 50 years and if we get nuked the spam will outlast us.
    So, Spam and guns are what people are spending their money on.

  • sowsear

    Last week someone posted that Obama played basketball (or tennis or something) with IL State Treasurer, Alex Giannoulias one morning recently and that later that same day, Alex was seen coming out of the White House. I thought it was odd but not really verifiable….

  • BJ

    “those that kept us safe during the past seven years…”

    WHAT FUCKING IGNORANCE-

    No doubt a Bush sheep who just doesn’t get it.

    Bush and Cheney belong in prison for life (or worse) for intentional criminal acts against this nation and the world which cost this country over 4,000 soldier’s lives, over 100,000 permanently physically injured American soldiers, god knows how many permanently mentally disturbed war heroes, and somewhere between 150,000, and 650,000 INNOCENT IRAQI HUMAN BEINGS who were slaughtered due to Bush’s ILLEGAL WAR FOR OIL.

    This country’s integrity and moral standing in the world are in jeopardy and will be lost for a long time if the losses for oil, the corruption of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Alberto, Wolfowitz and others isn’t dealt with in a legitimate court of law.

    We move from one messiah on the right to the next messiah on the left. The only difference is that one is a moron and the other is a calculated, cool, scheming guy with a middle name that scares the ignorant.

    Ignorance is bliss, perfect example by your post, thinking this admin kept you safe.. what a fucking laugh.. and ignoring the FACT that 911 happened on Bush’s watch (and) he took 11 vacations back to his ranch in the first 11 months of ofc and ignored any official warnings of a possible attack.

    Keep the delusions alive!

  • rolling_thunder

    OVomit will just call Hillary and Bill in a crisis. No problemo..4 am no problemo.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    This is a forward looking prediction on your part:

    And OVomit won’t know what the F to do and it’s BECAUSE everyone knows that we just put a total America hating weakling in the White House.

    What happens if he reacts appropriately? Will you continue to expend energy to “stop him” (whatever that means). You are fighting him based on what you assume will happen. This approach does not seem sensible to me. Good luck, I want no part of any resistance that seems to me so alarmist and extreme.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    I heard on one of the liberal talk shows (when I used to listen to them) that the ranch in Paraguay has acres of water.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    ROFLMAO…Okay well you can sit there when the Fairness Doctrine is enacted and the nuts start this Civilian Military Force nonsense, etc. I prefer to keep America AMERICA. That’s my choice. I will not sit and watch this freak take away my liberties. And you can’t DENY either of those things…those are a done deal.

  • Seattle Moss

    Well at least we know what side you’re on..scum
    I never voted for any Bush..scum
    I just say it the way it is you anti-American..scum
    We have not been attacked again..scum

    oh and Iraq is a brilliant strategy..scum

    You have been snookered..scum

    Now get out of here…scum bag!!

  • rolling_thunder

    I drink instant with Nestle creamers..mmmm…good.

  • sowsear

    Also. for months, people have been saying that Rove was giving advice to Donna Brazile of the
    DNC.
    And SOS Rice had been going back and forth between Obama and Odinga when Odinga was fighting to make a position for himself in the Kenyan government (after he lost the election for Pres. and rioting began).
    And nothing came of the break-ins at the passport office even though the person who hired the temps doing the “looking” was a member of Obama’s advisory group.(Who knows what was changed, stolen, or replaced)

  • tampagurl

    I understand your point Galt. Although, I think we’re just having a conversation their are some that would be frightened by what we’re saying.

    For those, I would say stay out of the big cities and off planes and trans. Just kidding :)

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    I think the wing nuts believe that 9/11 didn’t happen. Kumbaya Lord, Kumbaya.

  • BJ

    Hillary went to many intelligence people she trusted and respected to help make her decision.. how come the masses ignore this fact, or don’t know that?

    Does anyone ever research the truth on any topic? Like the fact that Gore never said he invented the internet?

    People believing MSNBC simply because they said something is as bad as the masses that believe anything Fox says.

    In your first paragraph you mention that ppl took info without any questions. I believe there were 1000′s of us online not believing and digging up, spreading, and arguing for the truth. We sadly only have so much power-

    How many read any great books that were written the last 7 yrs regarding the truth behind the war, the funding, the presidency, etc? Sadly very few.

    But the truth was out there available to anyone who wanted to listen.

    The problem is that sadly our dumbed down nation looked at Bush and saw this instead of this

    Start ripping your uniform off then.. here, let me help you. I want to see these bastards in prison, deported or on death row. They intentionally lied, INTENTIONALLY lied to this nation and sent over 4,000 soldiers to their deaths.

    It was on Bush’s watch that we were attacked. Why can’t people get that through their heads?

    What makes you think we weren’t attacked again because they “kept us safe”. What a load of bull crap.

    Go ahead and lead the charge to capitol hill and those of us who don’t believe in guns, who have never owned one, will be there to meet you when you come.

    this was for OIL.

    Bush and Cheney will rot in hell if there is one and not soon enough for me.

  • Seattle Moss

    I’m going to get myself a bumper sticker after we get attacked and the mob goes after the democrat traitors..

    “At least Bush kept you safe”

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Done deal? There has been no legislation on anything. Talk of The Fairness Doctrine was a shot across the bow, to push the right wingers to back off a bit. You also mentioned they would use the FD relating to blogs in another thread. I can’t see how you could even enforce this, considering the net is an international medium and one could host a blog overseas. You would have to block traffic on the net to try and stop a blog from being viewed in the US and not even the koolaid drinkers would go for that.

    What proof do you have this “Civilian Military Force” is being assembled, other than Obama talking about it once? And what proof do you have the FD is coming back, and in what form? This reminds me of the folks who for the past 20 years told us the NWO was coming because Bush One used the phrase “new world order” in a speech.

    You can keep your hysterics, I ain’t biting.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    I understand your point Galt. Although, I think we’re just having a conversation their are some that would be frightened by what we’re saying.

    I’m trying to get folks to tone down the rhetoric, that being one of the reasons, to stop the spread of fear.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    I already bought the “Don’t Blame ME I Voted McCain” bumper sticker. :mrgreen:

  • Seattle Moss

    OIAF…

    I was just starting to try to accept this election when I heard about the Rats wanting to investigate and prosecute those that have kept us safe.
    That honeymoon for me lasted two days

    Now I’m fighting mad at these terrorist enablers.
    and the fact that they want a one party state with no dissent through the fairness doctrine is a call to arms.

  • tampagurl

    there and trains

    gee I wish we had an edit button

  • BJ

    I believe aspartane (tame?) is not artificial but compressed sugar if I recall-

    either way, Rummy is scum.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    I think the wing nuts believe that 9/11 didn’t happen. Kumbaya Lord, Kumbaya.

    And the opposite wing nuts see different conspiracies everywhere.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    I’m with you. I’m also with all the people who are going to hang their flags at half mast on January 20th. Fairness Doctrine my AZZ. It’s all because OFairy doesn’t want us to tell the truth about him.

  • tampagurl

    You have my cooperation Galt.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Galt…Catch up with us. OVomit has talked about it 100 times, not once. And in one of his first interviews last week Rahm Emanuel discussed the plans for it. I have a link to it somewhere. Get your head out of the sand. I didn’t realize how unaware you are. That’s why you’re not scared. It’s not hysterics. This is my country too and I’m not letting the wing nuts destroy it. You can stick your head in the sand, no worries. We’ll fight the fight to keep America AMERICA.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Well you can tell that “hysteria” thing to all of our friends who have numbers tattooed on their arms from 1944.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Well if Bush has nothing to do with our military or defense, and he didn’t keep us SAFE, then I guess he also had nothing to do with Iraq, if you follow Galt’s logic.

    That’s not at all my logic. I was saying the career professionals transcend presidents and do the work of keeping us safe. A new president can change the course of things but this is not like flipping a switch. Change happens slow in such huge institutions. I am not suggesting we don’t give the credit to the president. But I also think too much emphasis is given in your argument.

  • Idiocracy08

    I do have to disagree with you about something.

    The democrats started the special prosecutor attacks by initiating the Iran contra probe

    Special prosecutor attacks? What were we supposed to do about Iran/Contra?

    Just letting it go is what has been letting our politicians get away with all they have been getting away with.

    I hated Iran/Contra. Don’t blame the democrats for “attacks”, when it was Reagan/Bush who committed the crimes. It’s been over 20 years since it happened and I’m still pissed about it.

    For the record, the Iran/Contra probe wasn’t an attack. If it were, Clinton wouldn’t have let it go in 92. And that bothered me about Clinton.

  • Seattle Moss

    Who controls the oil controls the world..
    Rather us than them.

    Cruel world isn’t it!!

    Now go suck on some plastic and be thankful that the oil flows to the west.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Where do you get off on saying it’s a “conspiracy” tin foil hat situation? Oh my GOD…The fears we have are ALL based on what OVomit has TOLD us he’s doing. My God Galt. You were on a thread yesterday written about the Civilian Military Force. This is common knowledge and you are DENYING IT? WTF? Wow. What happened to you? And the Fairness Doctrine is already up for a vote I believe. And yes it will be intended to stop the blogging. Have you read anything about it? This isn’t manufactured hysteria and don’t talk to me that way. You know better. This is some of us cherishing what used to be our country and wanted to preserve some of it.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    You’re arguing just for the sake of arguing Galt. Not making sense.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    There are parallels from the campaign tactics and media collusion to that era. But there is no evidence they want to build concentration camps and tattoo people. You are being hysterical in my view. Feel free to continue, you will attract some people but in my view most will shy away from your effort.

  • TeakWoodKite

    laughing my azz off when this country is nuked

    ???

    War Crimes? Mr.Johnson? I would be happy if they were charged and convicted in the US. All Travel aside, there will be be no convictions. There will be be very few trials. All will beforgotten and swept under the rug of history.

    rolling_thunder,
    Ever since New Orleans and the gold coast was left to rot by bush, I have had a 1 month supply of food stores and energy.

    Other “important” items as well are included in that as well.

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    Where do you get off on saying it’s a “conspiracy” tin foil hat situation? Oh my GOD…The fears we have are ALL based on what OVomit has TOLD us he’s doing.

    You are putting words into my mouth. And have you forgotten Obama says lots of things that are untrue? We really don’t know what he will do based on his lack of consistency in truth telling. I’m through with discussing this with you. You are hysterical in my opinion. You may have the last word on anything I’ve said, but don’t take a lack of a reply as agreement or disagreement. I’m moving on and wish you luck. Your heart seems in the right place and I appreciate the word you did on the caucus fraud film. Ciao. :mrgreen:

  • Seattle Moss

    After 911
    change happened quick and was messy but no further attacks took place.
    Now after the next attack I’m sure the Overbites and tweeties will be the first to ask for profiling and neighborhood sweeps.

  • BJ

    Let it go?

    Move on?

    <a href=”http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/jeannie411/3_052907BL1_sm.jpg”Move past what they did? What they are responsible for?

    You do that, some us, never will. Some of us believe in honor.

    I think Bush sheep need to read a book or two or three or even four or five

    The title says it all, “The Greatest Story Ever Sold

  • BJ

    Let it go?

    Move on?

    <a href=”http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/jeannie411/3_052907BL1_sm.jpg”Move past what they did? What they are responsible for?

    You do that, some us, never will. Some of us believe in honor.

  • Idiocracy08

    I’m sorry for you being in Houston!
    lol!
    (I can say that, I used to live there)

  • BJ

    I think Bush sheep need to read a book or two or three or even four or five

    The title says it all, “The Greatest Story Ever Sold,,,

  • http://www.danperezstudios.com/images/workshop/gollummaquette.jpg Galt’s Pizza Parlor & Department Store

    BJ, I fought Bush on the war when it was unpopular to dissent. Thanks for bringing your perspective, I share a lot of it.

  • Seattle Moss

    Like Obama believes in honor..

    Not standing and cheering our troops at the state of the union while everyone else got up and clapped with honor their success.

    Is that your kind of honor you like.

    Maybe you also sat on your hands wishing for defeat and retreat like Obama.

    I hope you are wearing good diapers because I’m not sure you’re going to be able to hold it the next time we’re attacked

  • tampagurl

    Go ahead and lead the charge to capitol hill and those of us who don’t believe in guns, who have never owned one, will be there to meet you when you come

    That’s pretty funny :)

    Because you don’t believe in guns, to you propose to stop the rest of us from having them? Or are you saying you plan on using hand to hand combat? :)

  • Seattle Moss

    Payback is a bitch…The republicans are already talking about punishing the democrats the next time they’re in power.
    Prosecuting those that kept us safe no matter the tactics opens a door for a long process of defeat for America.

  • tampagurl

    Hmmmm I would have never guessed instant would be good.

  • kgirl1028

    With as much as I would like to see bush urinate on himself Larry this is not going to happen. The only person who would have presued something like that was Hillary Clinton, Obama for all his bluster is not going to to prosue this infact I think that’s part of the reason the Bush Administration never strongly backed McCain and all the supposide sitings of Karl Rove at the obama camp. If you think they haven’t cut a deal then youh ave lost your mind. IF anyone get’s brought up on war crimes i will be someone low in the administration and of no real significance. YOu aren’t the only person who wanted to see these guys

  • http://www.anvp.typepad.com/soldier4hillary soldier4hillary

    God. People like this fucking disgust me. So what did you do? Tell me. What the fuck did you goddamn do! This is what makes me literally SICK! Do you remember what it was like after Sept 11th? Do you? So where were you? What news channel were you on? What state were you marching in to protest? Where are the letters you wrote proclaiming it was a mistake. WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU!

    This is what pisses me the fuck off with this sheep mentality. While we watched mutherfuckers waving flags and placing them everywhere they can find because everyone all of a sudden were A OK with going in everywhere you turn all you heard on CNN that there were Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    Colin Powell standing in front of the U.N council with bogus aerial photos and bogus goddamn pictures of facilities. EVEN after the inspectors stated they found nothing. We knew that shit. But did it stop people from reelecting him? Did you hear us complain? We were told to move and we executed. Do you remember the approval rating for us going into Iraq?

    But now, after it’s all said and done and you realize you were “always” against it. Hey now you want to prosecute someone. I dont give a shit if you like guns or not and you can meet me any day of the week anywhere or anyhow.

    I dont know how you think we protect this country but I am goddamn proud I can shoot my ass off. Even for ungrateful ass people who don’t like guns. Sorry. The days of fighting with bows and arrows are over. I dont give a shit what your opinion is. It took you eight damn years to feel lied to and all of a sudden get the balls to speak out?

    You fucking Obama supporters amaze me. Yes, thousands died. So that should tell people to fucking USE MORE GODDAMN COMMON SENSE when they pick presidents! This is a volunteer service. Just like people volunteer to become police officers.

    Our job is to not stand behind a president. It’s to stand behind this country and to uphold the constitution and protect the people. We know this, it is in our oath. Say what you will about Bush I could care less.

    I will never side with any foreign country on any elected official chosen by the people. If you like how they do things take your ass over there. Always talking about what’s wrong but cant show any damn proof on what solutions you bought forward to fix the problem.

    I swear to god you Obama supporters have no earthly idea. Clueless. You would side with a foreign country? You will claim to the world that we are guilty of something? You will label what we have done and what we have lost and classify it as “murder”. Tarnish every single individual who died serving there country with a fucking label because now, eight years later, it’s wrong.

    We all know the realities of war when we volunteer to enlist. It’s your job. YOUR JOB the people in this country, as we protect you on foreign soil, you do the same for us on domestic. That means making good decisions and asking yourself is this person the best for this country and not just what I personally believe or feel. You use your heart instead of your head and think only of yourselves. And then, when it does not go the way you want it. You place blame. We have taken these insults from you people for almost two years. From the “war mongorer” comments to just plain ignorance.

    I am furious and I have the backbone and will to take it and fight for it the entire way.

  • Idiocracy08

    I don’t want to argue with you because we both have our opinions and I think both should be respected.

    My view is that Bush did not keep us safe. If he would have taken action on his “Osama wants to strike inside the US” dossier – instead of going on vacation for a month, then maybe 9/11 wouldn’t have happened.

    I agree with you that we haven’t been attacked on our soil. But our soldiers are being attacked in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. However, now that we are there, I do believe we must win.

    We were giving money to Afghanistan, even in August 2001. $45 million in May 2001. Colin Powell said we weren’t giving money to the Taliban, we were giving money to the people in power so they wouldn’t grow opium. Well, the Taliban was in power then. If they didn’t know it, I could have told them because I saw them blow up those statues in May 2001 and was disgusted.

    It took 8 years for them to hit the towers again, so it’s not surprising that nothing has happened here since 9/11.

    We can’t travel anymore as proud Americans. So we, as Americans, aren’t safe.

  • kgirl1028

    punished. at the beginning of 2008 that was my mission, to elect the individual who would go in and investigate these people. Unfortunately Obama is not the person to do this. Just like Soldier4hillary pointed out, the media pushed the narrative of Iraq much in the same way they pushed obama’s election. Even if obama and bush have nothing in common obama’s shady past is enough to mute any hope of him going after bush. We are still trying to figure out where all the bodies are buried and if you don’t think the Republicans won’t tell us should he a could go after bush. Infact that could be why people set on damaging information during the election. The purpose of them unearthing could have meerly been for their protection of Bush, not a mccain win.

  • csuzeq

    They have ample dirt on Obarfy, like that he is an illegal alien and should be deported. I will like watching Republicans go get Odrama. I hope they can get Mechelle, too.

    Maybe Bill and Hillary can raise the girls while the parents are behind bars. After all, Mechelle now thinks Hillary was a good Mom. (earlier thread)

  • csuzeq

    I think we are going to be attacked big time, too. Then if I survive, I am going to tell my boyfriend who voted for Odrama and is mad at me for “drinking the kool aid” (LOL), I told you so. You put him in there now you have to protect me!

  • tampagurl

    I don’t mind BJ bringing his perspective but he can leave his rude nasty remarks somewhere else. He needs to learn to have a disagreement without starting a fight by calling someone names.

    WHAT FUCKING IGNORANCE

  • KathyNeocon

    After what I have seen this election, I will NEVER vote for a Democrat EVER EVER EVER AGAIN. No way. And I will campaign hard against any down ticket Dems too.

    Hee hee–Love it!! I’m now GOP after 20 some years of Democrat voting. I will NEVER vote or having anything to do with that wretched, treacherous, treasonous party ever again.

  • Seattle Moss

    Tampa,
    We have all been having intelligent reasoned arguments tonight without a hint of negative comments until this BJ came along..

    When you say the F word you get on
    the fighting side of me

  • KathyNeocon

    Funny thing is Obama turned my sister into a Republican too. She even listens to Rush Limbauh now. LOL

    Shout out to your sister–me too! Rush is now my favorite radio show. He’s a real patriot.

  • Seattle Moss

    Mark Levin is my favorite now..
    The place where the patriotic resistance meets.

  • tampagurl

    As with most of us Seattle. I think discussing our disagreements is healthy, as long as people don’t insult our intelligence because we happen to disagree.

  • Idiocracy08

    Your post made me think…if we don’t go after Bush & Co for the crimes because it would be against national security – then using that logic, we shouldn’t go after Obama when he does whatever he does (or even his past) because it will make us look weak.

  • KathyNeocon

    You call that logic?

  • Idiocracy08

    No – I was making a point.

  • JozefAL

    Seattle, you’re forgetting one very important fact: The Iraq War was NOT NECESSARY! Was Saddam a bad guy? Yes. There’s no denying that, but so fucking what? Zimbabwe’s Mugabe was no less corrupt and he instigated racial war against the White minority, but the US did nothing about him.
    Zaire/Congo’s Mobutu was little more than a corrupt thug who wasted his country’s vast natural wealth, but when his country was plunged into any number of civil wars, the US sat back and did nothing to get rid of him or help end the appalingly brutal violence done to millions of innocents (human AND animal) caught between rival factions.
    The Saudi gov’t continues to deny half its population full participation in everyday life, and not only allows but often expects the public execution of women for violating moral laws (while men can get off by paying a fine for many of the same moral violations). Further, while most Saudis have little access to a Western-style education (focusing on math, science and the arts), the gov’t continues financing the very schools that promote the type of Islamic extremism that has led to so much of the terrorist activities for the past decade and a half.
    But, what was the real reason that Bush felt that the “global war on terror” HAD to be directed at Iraq? What had Saddam done in the previous two years that DEMANDED the world attack his country? Saddam had done nothing more than what he’d been doing for the previous quarter century–being a nuisance, but largely kept in check. In short, Saddam had done nothing to warrant Bush’s War. Bush SHOULD have finished in Afghanistan, ending the threat of the Taliban (and their various and sundry allies who’ve cooperated in the Taliban’s re-emergence) and getting rid of al-Qaeda once and for all. (Of course, terrorists are like the hydra–you cut off one head and two sprout up in its place.)
    Of course, the MSM failed to do its job and INVESTIGATE the whys behind Bush’s War. No, they just took whatever Bush offered them and accepted it as “The Truth” and passed it along to the public, couched in numerous editorials intended to ensure the public’s acquiescence. And anytime the public began questioning, the specter of 9/11 was raised to reinforce the fear that Bush must not be questioned.

  • La Compania Volante

    soldier4hillary: I wrote a long post, in part in support of your opinion, but I guess that it didn’t make it through the spam filters. I’ll just say that you’re dead on target, and thank you once again for your service.

  • Seattle Moss

    Very well said!!
    I’m proud of you soldier!

  • Baba Rum Raisin

    Faraday Cages will suffice.

  • IndieDogg

    I strongly suggest a viewing of the documentary film: The Fog of War.

    I won’t give away the ending but there is an interesting observation in the film that might surprise you, a definition of a “war criminal.”

    It’s not always them.

    Anyway, whatever you might think one way or the other about where we are now and the situation in Iraq, this is a very sobering and thought-provoking film.

  • JustMe

    Peppermint, Chamomile & Mango teas are my favorites I got hooked on lattes when I moved here and had to get off them…. Lattes played havoc with my figure LOL

    Just making light here

    (_)~

  • JustMe

    I thought I read somehwere it is sat on some Clear water springs : So at a guess he will have good water ….

  • AnninCA

    Larry, I would enjoy reading a piece on what you think is an appropriate way to deal with this issue. I know, for myself, it’s hard to support the CIA torture and detainment practices of this administration. It just baffles me that the US ignored the Geneva Convention.

    But I’d like to hear a solution.

  • AnninCA

    Say what?

    Oh goodness…..

  • retire05

    And you wonder why Obama won? The most secretive, unvetted, unexperience candidate this nation has seen in over a hundred year and yet he won?

    Read the original post to this reply. There is your reason Obama won. Because the vitriol aimed at George Bush is so vile, and has been repeated so many times, that no Republican could have won this election.

    BJ seems to think that a Democratic president will restore “integrity and moral standing in the world” as if the Islamofascists give a damn about that. Perhaps BJ thinks that if our image was better in semi-socialist Europe, the Islamofascists would want to stop killing us. I am sure our “image” was a primary subject among the 19 hijackers on September 11, 2001.

    But BJ should be really happy today. There are rumors that Jamie Gorelick, who should have been sitting in front of the 9-11 Commission instead of on it, will be appointed a tony cabinet position. Now, that should make BJ feel a lot safer.

    I would also like for BJ to tell me where all that oil is that we went to war for. When are we going to start getting it? Oh, that’s right, when Nancy Pelosi couldn’t control the Iraqi government and tell them who they could use to recover that oil, they just sold it to someone else.

    This is why we now have President-elect Barack Hussein Obama. Thanks, BJ.

  • jbjd

    Great; if it turns out Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen, we can make this two Presidents in a row.

    But it is precisely this tie to illegal acts carried out as the Commander in Chief that shows us the way we can stop him!

    http://jbjd.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/find-out-whether-barack-obama-is-a-natural-born-citizen-as-required-under-article-ii-of-the-us-constitution-and-stop-the-electoral-college-from-voting-for-him-if-he-is-not/

  • John

    I agree with you. What’s happened at this site is so damned sad. It’s gone from promoting Hillary Clinton (who I voted for, supported financially, and volunteered for) to becoming a love-in for Sarah Palin and now urging the next Administration and the rest of the world to let George Bush and Co. off scot-free for it’s war crimes, which have lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands and has cost this nation trillions of dollars. Christ.

    I don’t like Obama. That dislike does not, for me, translate into worship of All Things Republican. At this point in time, we’ve got to hope and pray and do everything we can to make the next Administration successful. And to hold the criminals of the LAST administration responsible.

  • csuzeq

    That’s the thing. No one will go after Odrama. They did not during the Primary, dems or GOP, why do you think anyone would go after him now? He is the first black president (so not, but whatever)and they are not going to F with that phoney history they are writing.

  • John

    But Seattle Moss bleating “scum” and calling the poster a “scumbag” doesn’t bother you at all, eh tampa?

    Not just Fucking Ignorance- Fucking Hypocricy, too.

  • csuzeq

    It’s most likely underway. They got their informant in the White House. How better to assault? they know they can’t bomb one city and destroy us so they will take us down from the inside. Computers, phones, money, electricity, then the bombs come. Shut us down and then take us out. Underway by Odrama’s friends. I’m not sure why the rest of the Government isn’t afraid of this guy.

  • John

    What a ridiculous argument. Failing to prosecute those tho commit crimes in the name of “keeping us safe” weakens our Democracy and makes us look weak in the eyes of the world. You want to give a free pass to the Administration to commit crimes because..it has sworn to defend us? What the hell is the matter with you?

  • John

    Traitor?

    Raise your hand if you took an oath to defend the Administration. Raise your hand if you’ve ever sworn alliegence to any Administration.

    Being in dissent of the policies of an Administration is not Treason, you Fascist moron. It’s the very essence of Americanism.

    “What we need is a good, honest American who can keep his mouth shut.”

    “Show me an American who can keep his mouth shut, and I’ll eat him!”– Meet John Doe (which, by the way, was made in 1940 and was a warning against American fascism.)

  • candymarl

    I must agree with Mr. Johnson on this one. It isn’t about our personal safety alone. What’s that’s saying about the tree of liberty being refreshed with the blood of patriots?

    Some of those detained, tortured, or killed were innocent of any crime at all. They weren’t affiliated with any terrorist group. They were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time or were sold for money or to avenge personal vendettas.

    Saying that this is okay so long as we are “safe” allows the same to be done to anyone of us. So you were shot to death but were innocent. Big deal. Later on we punished the actual party involved.

    Using that logic any person can be detained, tortured, or killed without proof or probable cause as required under law because “later on” we caught the real culprit. How much comfort would that be to any of our families?

    Ben Franklin: Those who would exchange security for liberty deserve neither.

    Oh, and for those who cry I defend the Constitution so leave these peoeple alone! Well the same document allows for prosecution for high crimes and misdemeanors. Admitting you authorized the torture of other human beings is not a high crime?

    If so, the Constitution is already rendered useless.

  • jbjd
  • http://www.patriotroom.com Bill Dupray
  • John

    Some of us actually counted on Bush to keep us safe BEFORE 9/11– maybe you weren’t aware, but your hero became President nine months before the attack. But of course, that was Clinton’s fault.

    There were no terrorist attacks on the US between February 1993 (the first WTC attack, which took place three weeks into Clinton’s term, and therefore was Clinton’s fault) and Sept 2001- more than eight years, yet I don’t recall any “Thank you Bill Clinton for keeping us safe” parades.

    You are just a fucking nut. The silver lining in Obama’s win is that it pisses off right-wing drones like you, Seattle.

  • AnninCA

    I never was particularly surprised by Bush’s move on Iraq or by many Democrats’ vote. Obama wasn’t either. He just used that issue in the primary to claim the higher moral ground. The truth is that we lost many fine Democrats due to the PUBLIC’S outrage that they voted against Bush. That’s a fact that so many people forget.

    I don’t get why they forget that fact, frankly. I’ve decided that part of the reason for this move to the left is that people in America are not feeling empowered to continue the American tradition of self-responsibility.

    I sort of understand this, too. That may be why the Republican message is failing.

    How can I be self-responsible when my company forces me into a 401k Plan rather than a retirement plan and then the CEOs steal the stockholder value in bonuses, golden parachutes, and irresponsible management that drives major corporations into the ground? What options do I as an individual have in that state?

    What about health care? I would love to be more rigorous about my health care spending. I’m fairly good at that, actually. But what do I do when my doctor insists on test after test that cost me money? What can I do as a consumer?

    I think that’s why people are giving up the self-reliance ideal.

    We are, in fact, saying: “OK, you lie to us. We can’t, therefore, make rational voting choices. You rip us off. We, therefore, can’t make decisions that build for our own old-age and independence. Ergo, YOU pay for it, US GOVERNMENT.”

    I get this.

  • section9

    Here’s the problem with the whole “war crimes” issue.

    The Kennedys got away with running a Murder incorporated out of the White House. Lyndon Johnson and Nixon ran Project Phoenix, the coup in Indonesia, the Greek colonel’s escapade, and the Pinochet Coup. Extraorinary Rendition was simply a means by which we picked up terrorists during the Clinton years and handed them off to the Jordanians and the Egyptians and pretended that they weren’t being waterboarded or worse.

    People don’t get to scream “war crimes” just because Everybody Hates Bush and expect the Republican Party to cooperate in the pursuit of a bipartisan foreign policy. If you want to see just how angry Republicans can become, watch how quickly they can pursue scorched earth politics if an Obama Administration starts cooperating with a foreign court in the prosecution of American public officials.

    There is serious discussion going on among Democrats, now that they are on the cusp or real power, about what to do about transnational terror and the prosecution of the Khalid Sheikh Muhammad’s of this world. It’s much easier to yell “war criminal” when you’re in the Opposition. When you’ve got power and have the responsibility for keeping the wolf at bay-that’s when things get dicey.

    However, even in a toxic political atmosphere for Republicans, McCain still walked away with some 46% of the electorate. That’s a sizeable minority. They won’t stay quiet while Republican officials are prosecuted in some Guevarist People’s Court out of a Bolivian State of Siege by the Party in Power. That simply wouldn’t be a politically wise thing for Obama to do.

    That doesn’t mean he won’t do it.

    Democrats underestimate the nationalism quotient here at their peril.

  • witness08

    For a healthy alternative use HONEY instead of sugar or artificial sweeteners.

    By gradually reducing the amount of sweetener you use, you can wean yourself off of all sweeteners.

  • Mary

    The only true hypocricy is assuming the Democrats now in control will investigate or change anything.

    It’s not gonna happen.

    Pelosi’s “Impeachment is off the table” was all about covering for the many Democrats who were complicit in Bush’s choices.

    They want NOTHING to do with hearings or discovery of who attended which “secret” meetings and agreed, while publicly posturing that they didn’t.

    Not gonna happen, y’all. Pelosi and Reid will make sure they just “move on,” and Obama will support that.

    And THAT is the bottom line.

  • AnninCA

    I always agreed with Nancy on that.

    I’m done with wasting government energy and time on witch-hunts.

    Had Americans not liked Bush policies? They could have voted him out.

    They did not.

    End of story.

  • Mary

    Don’t blame the site, John.

    Pelosi & Reid have sent you very clear signals that there will be no trials or prosecution of the “criminals of the LAST administration.”

    So has Barak Obama.

    The posters here live in REALITY, and see Pelosi/Reid/Obama for what they are.

    Your visions of trials and prosecutions are delusional.

    The Democrats don’t want to be exposed as complicit.

    You can be angry about that if you want to, but don’t blame the posters on this site.

  • AnninCA

    I do sometimes question people’s intelligence.

    Just this morning, the post that implied that Obama somehow killed his grandmother?

    I questioned that one.

    It’s a matter of judgment, I think. When some post is far, far over the boundary of reason, it’s ok to me to say, “*blink*”.

    But often this attacking alternative perspectives is really just nothing more than, “My way or the highway” thinking.

    I honestly think people who are that rigid are often obsessed with politics. It’s the perfect venue for their own neurotic problem in life. Lack of reasonableness.

    They are probably just as nutty with their families.

    Or with the waitresses at restaurants.

    Those people make my eye twitch. I’m sure it’s because I had way too much experience with that type rigid thinking in my own life.

    I just can’t stand it now as an adult. It was like I finally grew up and said, “I’m never putting up with that kind of rigidity again.”

    Proud to say: I stuck to that promise to myself.

    I still reject that.

    I hope I always will.

    It’s destructive thinking.

  • Barry 0351

    So after the leaders are sent up for war crimes do they plan to start trials for the common soldiers too?
    what better way to show our pride in our military by charging the troops with war crimes.
    some one best re think this position.

  • bemused

    No, “they” don’t have to even bomb one city to cripple us practically to destruction. With one nuke overhead in the right area, the electromagnetic pulse would fry so much electronics it would devastate that area (a circle projected on the ground from the blast sphere) more that if the explosion was on the ground. This is aside from fallout. Imagine a big city where all the elevators suddenly stop, the airtraffic controls for hundreds of miles are out, the cell phones, the TV.
    Or, that one bomb could take out Grand Coulee dam which would tend to take out everything downriver, to the Pacific.

  • Country First

    Help me out here .. I vaguely remember a news blurb or two about beheadings on the part of the muslim extremists… Daniel Pearl… and some others including American soldiers. Is the international community going after the perpetuators of those acts, or is a forced standing in a cell naked a worse crime? I don’t remember much of an outcry against beheadings by the world or by our press. Just asking…

  • AnninCA

    I simply don’t understand the thinking that one horrific crime justifies another.

    I also don’t understand the thinking that we can insist on the same judicial protections for everyone in the entire world.

    I am hoping that Larry, who has thought about this topic more than me, will offer an alternative viewpoint.

  • Sassy

    Good work Larry!
    Alberto was as dumb as a sack of rocks, but John Yoo was a real piece of work!
    It was shocking to hear the mish-mash that these people spewed.
    I saw Senator Nelson of Florida comment several times about so-called information that he was briefed on…not top secret of course. He was told that Saddam had missiles that could possibly reach the east coast of this country.
    Then we all saw that miserable looking piece of junk that looked like it came from a childrens’ playground.
    I agree that they need to watch their backs for the forseeable future…I’m not going to worry about them though!

  • athy

    Are we okay with burying this under the rug?
    With no accountability, what is to stop future presidents from doing other acts that violate our constitution?

    http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/

    http://www.bushcommission.org/

  • Betty

    I would imagine the ability to cope is somewhat lacking.

    They deserve the Hague, not only to bring justice to Iraq and the middle east, but to also restore the rule of law in America.

    As difficult as it may be for the nation to face the truth in regard to this matter, the denial harms us more, enabling other Cheneys and other Yoos to pursue crazed ideas of empire, destroying America, in the process.

    Thank you.

  • http://commonsensegram.wordpress.com proudmilitarymom

    GREAT IDEA!!!! I folded my flag and put her away when the Supreme Court decided to appoint Bush. Haven’t flown it since.

    I do beleive I will bring Old Glory out of retirement for that one day and indeed, fly her at half mast in mourning for my country and Democracy! Thanks!

  • athy

    http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a1097chessboard

    One of Barack Obama’s earliest supporters-who now , along with others, advises Barack Obama on foreign policy issues, is Z. Brzezinski.

    Read what he says about getting the US public to support any war efforts:

    “The public supported America’s engagement in World War II largely because of the shock effect of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.” He predicts that because of popular resistance to US military expansionism, his ambitious Central Asian strategy can not be implemented, “except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat.”

    9/11 proved to be such a threat for many Americans, however Pres Bush used opportunity to go after Saddam Hussein who had nothing to do with this attack.

    Joe Wilson and others desperately tried to sound the alarm.

    Unfortunately, many are still questioning whether or not 9/11 was an inside job.

  • AnninCA

    I must admit. Since you think O killed his grandmother?

    I wouldn’t ever click on any link you post.

    Heaven knows what would happen to my puter.

  • athy

    AnninCA

    dont be too quick to jump to conclusions about what I may think.

    It does not do justice to the process of intellctual inquiry.

    Thanks

  • mimi

    I agree with BJ.

    However, Pelosi took impeachment off the table. So I doubt it would gain any real traction

    Also, there are too many other problems, like the economy. We are in deep shit and frankly, as much as I hate to say this, it takes precedence over the Bush/Cheney war crimes.

    But the image of a black man doing this will not go over big. It will tip the scales and 0bama really doesn’t want that. He wants 2 terms.

  • mimi

    I agree that there is a little too much of a love-in happening on this board for Sarah Palin whom I think can take care of herself very well. I certainly, as a woman defend the misogynist attacks, but she and I hold very different views. I like her, but she has miles of personal work to do to be a national contender.

    And as far as all this pro-Bush stuff, one of the things that always worried me was that an 0bama presidency was in place in order to rewrite the Bush legacy. And it’s already happening.

    Sorry, but Bush/Cheney are war criminals. And as far as them keeping us safe, it’s already proven the Iraq War has created more terrorists than not. THAT’S A FACT.

    Many of the systems put in place after 9/11 would have been done by any president. Frankly, we needed more security regarding baggage and the smuggling of bombs on airplanes and long before the 9/11 terrorists came up with the idea to fly a plane into a skyscraper, enough nuts were getting on board, hijacking planes. After Lockerbie, we really should have cracked down.

    There were enough signals going off about the 9/11 terrorists that they should have been nabbed. I still don’t understand how the owner of the flight school these guys went to can sleep at night. He greedily took their money and never once thought to at least phone the FBI and say, these guys worry me, check them out. I mean, come on, a bunch foreigners show up asking to teach them how to steer a plane and that they’re not interested in how to take off and that doesn’t make you scratch your head.

    But I think all of this dialogue about Bush/Cheney being punished is fruitless. This is the deal that was made to get 0bama elected. This is among the reasons 10 million Republicans stayed home. This is not going to happen. So forgetaboutit.

    No need for everyone to get their heads in a snit. It’s just more subterfuge coming from the 0bama camp to keep our attention off of how he’s really filling the Cabinet.

    How many times are you going to let Lucy fool you Charlie Brown?

  • mimi

    idiocracy08,

    Well said.

  • Lee Ruth

    You need to read what Ayers wanted to do. A man that was inside The Weather Underground has a video explaining how they were going to re-educate the non believers. Three months in a re-education camp for those who would not go along with the new rules and death to those who wouldn’t change after the re-education.
    This is the same amount of time Obama and his new Chief of Staff said it would take to train the new National Security Force.
    Someone had better wake up and soon!

  • Lee Ruth

    If you remember, there was a dispute over the election.
    The Bush administration was not completely in place until May. Bush kept many of the Clinton people on the job and they gave him problems from then on.
    People such as; Clark, Tenet, the federal attorneys from all over the country, etc. were not exactly loyal to the administration.
    You understand what a raw deal the media and other Democrats gave Hillary. Bush got even worse treatment. Try and remember that when assessing blame. We don’t always get the full or correct story to shape our beliefs. That was true with Hillary.

  • La Compania Volante

    Here’s a bare-bones version of that post, soldier:

    This might get me hammered as a Bush apologist, but I would ask that everyone get real, as soldier4hillary suggested, regarding these “war crimes” charges being made against members of our government and our military personnel, most especially those being made by organizations and persons in other nations. Two points:

    1) No entity in today’s world—neither courts nor governments, foreign or American—has the moral standing to charge or try members of the American government or the U.S. military with “war crimes.” Not one. Want an explanation of that? The piece I tried to post earlier is far too long, and yet it only scratched the surface. Do some research on your own. Start with our allies. Try the French government intelligence and counter-intelligence services (I like and respect the French people, BTW). Look up “Rainbow Warrior,” the DGSE-Action Division and its predecessors, Algeria, the Congo, etc. Or even talk with our host, here, who has a background in intelligence.

    2) As for what’s the absolute truth behind the Bush administration’s transgressions during the prosecution of the war, do you actually trust that the media has given you the full story? Is this not the same biased media that during this recent election fanned the divisive flames of misogyny and racial suspicion within the electorate while simultaneously covering up for and suppressing all criticism of the candidate who won the election? Is this not the media that blatantly attacked the two female candidates with falsehoods and smears? Is this not the same media that has so vividly demonstrated its bias, its willingness to exaggerate, twist, deny, and in fact, outright LIE to push its own agenda?

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

    Do some research beyond the sensational books and the media hype, folks. Read a little (not popular) history. soldier4hillary knows what she’s talking about because she’s served in the real world, and I defy anyone to call her a Bush apologist.

  • cynic

    At the late stage that the democrats finally regained a congressional majority I also found myself in agreement with Nancy Pelosi. The damage was already done, and impeachment wouldn’t have undone it. It would have only distracted us from the many problems confronting the nation.

    The American public could certainly do with some straight talk and factual information about what the Bush administration actually did. Unfortunately, the people who need it the most are also those the least receptive to the truth. They’re the people who believed what Reagan said about Iran-Contra; they’re the people who believed a guy like Lee Atwater was a patriot and the people he worked for were honorable men; they’re the people who can’t think for themselves, and will swallow the pronouncements of right-wing blowhards hook line and sinker, while dismissing everything else as liberal media lies.

  • Nan

    Larry, you are a total loon and should have your head examined. So what you are saying is: Anyone who approved of the Iraq war should watch their step, if they visit a foreign country. Should members of congress and United Nations be careful too? They, too, approved going to war.

  • Zaggs

    Actually one thing Obama is going to have to keep in mind is former Clinton members in his cabinet. One word spells trouble for them, Rendition. Rendition did not start under Bush. It started under Clinton. This would also cover the “secret camps” as well I would imagine. Is the argument going to be that those who expanded the practice are guilty but not the ones who started it?
    Also are european countries going to argue that if attack one cannot pursue those who want to attack you regardless of where they live? That should be interesting to have their populace hear. Would anyone disagree with Israel when they launched operation “Wrath of God”?
    As for “harsh interrogation”. Seriously? The approved tactics would result in no more then bruising. Everything else has been investigated by our own legal department. As for those who were so interrogated. The geneva conventions (4th convention, article 4) also state that any national of a neutral party found to be in a war zone does not receive any protections under the conventions.

  • Mary Kay

    Well said.

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