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When It Comes to Guantanamo, DC Media Girl Has it Right!

By Larry Johnson on November 19, 2008 at 11:09 PM in Current Affairs

Folks, if you are looking for one single, doctrinaire point of view then this blog ain’t for you. I am liberal on some things, conservative on others, and downright moderate on most. I do not require anyone who writes on this site or who posts comments to subscribe to a creed. I welcome diversity of opinion. I may disagree with some of your opinions, but that does not make either of us a bad person.

I plead guilty for occasionally reacting emotionally to some posts that indulge personal attacks and insults. I will not tolerate being called a liar. And I admit that I have encouraged some people to have sexual relations with themselves or other members of their immediate family or farm animals under their care.

I raise all of this in light of a comment tonight to a great piece from DC Media Girl that included a pithy, but biting comment about Guantanamo as a stain on this nation. Someone writing under the name, “Soldier of Christ,” was not pleased:

Comment by Soldier of Christ | 2008-11-19 15:34:22
Guantanamo: PATRIOT Act -
_____________________________________-
I hope the Guantanamo is kept and we keep these murderous yellow bellies (using kids and mother for bombing )people inside “forever”. Without any tials or speech. You might say to yourself, “why the soldier is not forgiving – well, this soldier knows what these yellow bellies will do when they are loose in the United States waiting for trial, they will regroup and bomb us again. No paranoia just facts. The Patriot Act- yes keep the damn thing on – when Obama gets in the white house it will change to “Citizen Act” and all the internet and blogs will be spied into IP addresses anyway, so why don’t we just keep the old Bush Patriot and not give the SOB a chance to pass a new one with new spy language.

I know that you were referring to others on your lengthy long writing, but, let me make something clear to the readers and you, This country was based on Yeshua’s laws, founded on Yeshua’s law, and Judeo-Christian values- if you are a different faith, such as jews and muslims born and call yourselves ‘americans” – then fine- but let not others come or write and tell us that this is “not a christian nation” and if some of you liberals or unbelievers can’t handle the truth- well….there are other countries you can go to worship the G-d you love. America and Yeshua all go in the same pocket bag. As Yeshua might be saying to some of you- get over it!

You are welcome to disagree with Clara, but if you are going to adopt the name “Soldier of Christ,” then have the decency to conduct yourself as a goddamn Christian. Let’s start with the fact that Jesus was a Jew. He was an orthodox Jew. So your second paragraph makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. This country has no religious test. You do not have to subscribe to any religion or faith in order to be an American. You, my friend, sound like a follower of Osama Bin Laden. Instead of insisting on allegiance to Allah you insist on unwavering allegiance to Jesus.

As far as I am concerned, both kinds of religious extremism are unwelcome. True disciples of Jesus do not use threats or violence to win conversion. I know that some misguided souls are guilty of such behavior, but that does not make it right.

I believe the United States has the right to use violence against individuals who wish to destroy us. But there are laws, some natural and some man-made, which dictate how civilized people should conduct themselves. I am a child of the cold war. I was raised learning how to duck and cover under my school desk in the event of a Soviet nuclear attack.

But the Soviet threat was not a mere figment of our national paranoia. The Soviets operated a government that claimed to speak on behalf of its people. The Soviet government reserved to itself the right to decide who was and was not a terrorist. If it declared someone an “enemy of the state” then by Stalin’s ghost they were an enemy. Men such as Andre Sakharov, Aleksander Solzhenitsyn, and Natan Sharansky defied the Soviet authorities and were imprisoned in the Gulag. Like Guantanamo only much worse. The Soviet Gulag was a massive enterprise that murdered millions.

Our Guantanamo problem is this–we once stood proudly to defy the Soviet claim that their word was the law. We insisted–Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan alike–that nations were subject to law. We insisted the no country, no government, and certainly no man could declare himself the final arbiter of deciding who was and was not a terrorist. The fact that so many Americans now excuse and rationalize the illegal and immoral conduct of George W. Bush and his government in Guantanamo helps me understand how the Soviets could descend into a nightmare like the Gulag and justify its existence.

History teaches us one important lesson. The horrors of tyranny–no matter how small or how pervasive–will be erased and the tyrants vanquished. You doubt me? Talk to Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Agusto Pinochet, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, or Saddam Hussein. George W. Bush may have been well intentioned (I do believe he excused these abuses in the name of protecting America) but he was still on the wrong side of the law and the wrong side of morality. Guantanamo is an evil tattoo on the body politic of America. It must be expunged.

nayak

…have the decency to conduct yourself as a goddamn Christian…

that should be

…have the decency to conduct yourself as a Christian…

http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

Perhaps you could direct us all to your perfect blog so that we all might learn to be perfect writers like your perfect self. Later, we can all shove a stick up our asses just like yours–so that we can become anal retentive and rude, just like you.

Snickers

Oh my gawd, Uppity, I read your comment and couldn’t stop laughing. How true. Larry, thank you for diary. How self-righteous can we become? I was raised a Christian and am now agnostic bordering on the atheist precisely because of this intolerance by individuals such as the one quoted above. If you believe in Jesus/Yeshua/Son of God or whatever you want to call him, I think that’s great. How about extending the same kind of tolerance Jesus practiced rather than succumbing to judging others. Judge not lest you be judged comes to mind. How about using Jesus’ teachings and living His examples? No good can ever come from torture or inhumane treatment. Everyone is entitled to basic human rights. Whatsoever you do to the least of my people that you do unto me. So endeth my rant.

Ellen D

Luv you Uppity.

It’s very simple – You are what you do.

Whatever we do reflects who we are. If you don’t like your reflection, change what you are doing.

IndieDogg

You didn’t get it and you’re doing it again. Don’t for a second think LJ used the phrase by accident.

What do you mean by, “should have been?” According to you?

Larry’s point (one among many well made), no, you don’t. Nor does he. Nor do I.

Get it?

Did you notice, also, he didn’t capitalize the “G”?

Also, I imagine, not by accident.

[g]ood for him.

Louie

He took a lateral, hoping to distract.

Its’ what goes for “troll method,” in some, mostly the uncreative, the stupid, or the trolled troll.

Mr. Natural

Guantanamo is an evil tattoo on the body politic of America.

Damn, dude, nice metaphor!
http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

The contradiction was intended to provoke.

Galt

Larry, thanks for challenging that comment. I was taken aback by it and found it disturbing and wrote a simple reply (see below). There seems to be a push from the far left and far right for homogeneity of thought and behavior. One of the things I find appealing about this blog and you is that you are willing to have a variety of views from all over the spectrum, including the unpopular (with the extremists) middle or center. Truth and what is best should be our goal, not adhering to any one ideology. Only diary farmers should seek homogeneity!

Comment by Galt | 2008-11-19 15:46:55

Freedom of religion is also freedom from it.

Is America a Christian Nation?

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, “We the people,” and contains no mention of “God” or “Christianity.” Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust” (Art. VI), and “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase “so help me God” or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn’t our Constitution say so?

In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that “the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington’s presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

IndieDogg

[g]ood idea to look at who wrote the document in question to divine it’s meaning (I know, it’s too much fun not to play with the words).

They (the Founding Persons) were, many of them, Deists.

Also, have we forgotten how many of the original groups settling this nation came here not as a result of being released from prison, the popular tale we all remember (and the least disturbing), but — rather — because they were fleeing RELIGIOUS persecution?!

In those days, the Crown and the Church were equally powerful (if the Crown wasn’t actually in 2nd place) and equally to be feared in their extremes.

Unless one savior or another [has anybody done a world count lately of how many saviors this tiny planet has] is going to drop in fairly soon to bail out GM or proclaim that paper money is, in fact, real, I think we have more in common than we do in conflict.

May big bird bless this nation.

JozefAL

And many have forgotten that, of those groups fleeing persecution, many felt it was their “God-given right” to persecute OTHERS for failing to adhere to their laws based on their understanding of God and the Bible.
Look up the names Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson for the level of religious “tolerance” that the persecuted-in-England Puritans exhibited once they settled in New England.

Snickers

And then there are the Salem witch trials…than you JozefAl, I always love your posts.

Louie

But it didn’t end there, they fought the prosecution to become tolerant, something we as Americans,(most of us anyway), are still doing to this day, evidenced most recently by our fight for the rights of gay people, and women (and others), as well as those in GITMO.

It is this tolerance, this recognition of human rights, that ultimately, I think, determined our greatness as a nation, this freedom of thought allowing us to create and innovate, making the right decisions in terms of how to direct this nation, we, as a people.

Certainly, mistakes are made, this passage of prop 8 just the latest of many, I would also say Washington of the 30 years has been a impotent farce, but, still, the fight goes on.

The cold war information, btw is fascinating, I hope Larry, and others, write more about their experiences, and how it can be juxtaposed with the current “terrorism” trends we see, today, both military, and economic.

workingclass artist

Hmmmm….Interesting Galt. Does that include Governmental interference in the churches?
Just wondering…Since things are heating up in the controversy ( Recent Catholic Bishops Conference ) with the Catholic Hospitals and their refusal to perform medical procedures that conflict with church doctrine.
It’s a tricky one especially in terms of application…But then again…Democracy is messy and nothin is more tidy than totalitarianism…Whether it be religious…or secular…imho…Cuts both ways…No?

BTW…Similar controversy in terms of governmental interference in the Catholic schools…Teachers want Union…The Bishops see this as secular inroads that undermine the foundation of the churches mission…( Teachers are complaining of goin to Mass with their students once a week…lol…*sigh*…)

Galt’s Pizza Parlor

Does that include Governmental interference in the churches?

Both should not be tolerated: government interference in churches and church interference in government.

This gets tricky, when we are also dealing with tax exempt status, taking of public monies (as I assume is an issue with the refusal to perform medical procedures), etc.

If memory serves correct, the Salvation Army asked for an exemption to federal employment discrimination law so they could not be forced to hire homosexuals yet still take public money under the faith-based initiative.

I think we should keep the lines clean. If you have a church and want tax exempt status, stay on your own side of the fence and out of public policy. If you want public monies as a religious institution, you better be prepared to adhere to secular principles which prohibit discrimination, allow for certain medical procedures, etc.

Bottom line: Jefferson was right about the separation of church and state. And I add, in order to have freedom of religion, you have to allow for freedom from it.

melisa

I don’t think Soldier of Christ is authentic. Sounds too much like a steriotype-radical-rightwinger. Don’t think he is the real thing. Might be an one of our trolls trying to stir the pot.
Just plain crazy talk.
I appreciate noquarter. I have never felt restricted in sharing my opinions, even though I am a prolife feminist. Thanks for all the research and thoughtful commentaries.

melisa

My goodness, what a load of typos in my post! Late shift does that to me.
Reality not religion

It might be the same one that is on youtube. I got ridiculous comments and harassment from this person and had to block them. But again, it may be a typical user name and not the same person (just the same attitude).

Mr. Natural

“Enemy of the State.”

I will go to my grave wondering why people overlooked that element of this monstrosity.

None of Gitmo’s prisoners had been convicted.

For those eventually released, it had been trial by ordeal.

Nobody’s forgiven any terrorist of anything.

Nobody.

All that we highly insulted “libruls” ever wanted was that Bush prove they were terrorists, and not, it turns out, at least 50% a bunch of poor bastards who were sold to America for the bounty.

The real poison to our nation was that we learned how willingly we would accept dictatorial powers.

Strawberrybitch

Yyyup. If they weren’t terrorists when they went in, dimes to dollars they are now. Along with every member of their immediate family.

TheAntiBigot

Comment by Strawberrybitch | 2008-11-19 23:35:15

Yyyup. If they weren’t terrorists when they went in, dimes to dollars they are now. Along with every member of their immediate family.

Not necessarily, there are the tv rights. See the UK Channel 4 Programme on the two released back to the UK!

Nevertheless, Gitmo, Waterboarding, extraordinary rendition are all stains on America, as great as slavery.

AOK

I totally agree. I love how Neocons sing the praises how America is the greatest country and how we are the envy of the world. They we go and do the same thing that we criticize other nations about. That’s why the American electorate has turned a blind eye towards these zealots. We have the greatest criminal justice system in the world. Specifically designed to punish the guilty and not the innocent. Although it’s imperfect, it gets it right most of the time. Obama wants to get it right and I hope that he get’s the support needed to do so.

C.S.

Once we were the greatest nation; now we can barely feed ourselves; but we can be great again. Just don’t look to the man known as Obama to “get it right” when his appointment was the antithesis of democracy. No person assuming leadership under the cloud of suspicion and secrecy that mystery man Obama has can ever represent democracy. And I have yet to see one act of altruism from him.
Moss

AOK this…

” They we go and do the same thing that we criticize other nations about.”

We do the same thing as other countries,
If we don’t,we’re done…Get it!!

elise

I disagree, Moss. We will either agree to be what we have always claimed to be or we will be something else. Any time some one tells you he will keep you safe, but he has to take something from you in return beware because the price will keep going up. How many of our laws can we ignore and how much can we give away before we lose everything important? It doesn’t have to be either/or in spite of what our government tells us.

Benjamin Franklin said:
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

A French philosopher (I don’t remember which one) said “we lose our liberty, not in a wave, but one drop at a time.”

These were wise men and they knew more about tyranny than we do because they lived under it in their own lifetimes.

Please don’t misunderstand me. I niether supported Obama nor voted for him in the primaries or general. It will take more than the closure of gitmo to convince me he doesn’t intend to expand the power of the presidency, but it is as Larry said, “Guantanamo is an evil tattoo on the body politic of America. It must be expunged.”

Snickers

Well, AOK, Obama perpetrated FRAUD and THEFT in this election season, so frankly I don’t believe that he “wants to get it right.” He just wants to get it: the presidency, the power, the money. And then there are his corrupt associations along with his associations with terrorists foreign and domestic. Put a sock in it, if he didn’t do it “right” in the primaries and the GE, I doubt he will “get it right” now that he’s stolen the presidency. Excuse me, I’m still bitter and clinging to my bitterness.

SFIndiePUMA

Hey, Snickers, I’m glad I’m not the only one who believes The Pretender shouldn’t be allowed a free pass. A narcissist has no desire to “get it right” for any reason other than that which is self-serving. I firmly believe that any decision he makes is not from a desire to do the right thing but to support his own personal agenda of power, control, and ego.

He’ll never get my support or approval. Well, okay, if he stands up in front of the world and admits to the fraud, lies, secrecy, intimidation, thuggery, sexism, race-baiting, etc. that he engaged in to get where he is, and voluntarily resigns as president-(s)elect, I’ll support that. But only that.

Louie

Yeah, this coat of paint doesn’t mean a thing, but yet, they still persist.

The proof is in the pudding, and really, I’m already seeing signs GITMO, and Bush/Cheney’s silly war on terror will continue in it’s present form.

And given Obama’s financial supporters, I’m not surprised.

Thing they miss, though, is there’s no more money, a direct result of Cheney’s kook WOT, undermining American defense.

Obama, and his 90′s staff, arent’ smart enough to understand why: whereas a Clinton gets it.

Really, they make plans in a vacuum, as of the now emptied treasury doesn’t affect the future.

I mean, they’re really DUMB.
TheAntiBigot

Hey snickers & sfindipuma if he never had your vote, he does not need or want it, especially if for reasons of twisted bigotry you will not recognize the scale of his victory. Nearly 70 million Americans voted for him, if you support American do as you lot demanded under Bush, you should support the Presidency.

GITMO should be closed and whether he gets your support or not, closing GITMO is the right thing to do. Unless it is made the new home for Cheney, Rumsfield and Bush.

Mr. Natural

What I mean by the phrase “Nobody’s forgiven the terrorists of anything” is that demanding due process for the Gitmo prisoners is not letting them off the hook. It is not being a “pussified librul.” It is asking one thing: that they be proven guilty before you throw them in a dungeon or whatever else you choose to do to terrorists.

Personally, if you can prove someone guilty of terrorism, real terrorism, I don’t give a damn what you do to them. But Prove it first. Fucking Prove it. And not with those transparently phony show trials they tried to rig up.

There isn’t much between us and savagery but our Constitution. If you doubt this, look at the behavior we excused when we threw it out the window. Gitmo. “Stress Positions.” Waterboarding. Abu Ghraib. Men hung from ceilings and beaten to mush with baseball bats.

Mr. Natural

A lot of credit is due to the people who stood up to Bush on this. We’ll never know all their names. But my God how hard that must have been.

Louie

Many many in the military chose to leave rather than dishonor the Constitution, honoring the law despite being ordered to do otherwise.

They did the nation proud.

It may have been here an entry was posted by a former JAG who quit, rather than partake of the kangaroo courts Cheney’s stupid kooks tried to impose.

THEY are the people who protect the Constitution, who keep our freedom.

beebop

Okay. Some of the same people kicking Soldier of Christ like some can to the curb may want to go back to the Ayers blogs and read some of the comments about putting Bill in Gitmo. Shrouding yourself as though you are at arm’s length in sack cloth after the cross has been burned smacks of being less than candid with oneself.

Larry. Don’t try to play fast and loose with your role here either, my man. Passion and conviction don’t always bring out the best in people. Before you “bitch slap” SOC, you might want to revisit the entire string of comments from yesterday. Just one woman’s opinion.

AngryWhitePerson

Agreed. When posters are being “bitchslapped” and called skinheads for their discourse, without moderation, I hardly give a shit what a poster named SoldierofChrist is ranting about.
stodgie

i don’t agree with soldier’s comments and larry has the right to set forth his feelings. i respect both of their rights. of course larry’s superceeds as this is his blog. i happen to personally think that using dcmediagirl for this exercise was not a good decision. susan wrote something yesterday about due diligence on the blog that had thought, kindness and common sense. i saw none of this in dcmediagirl’s comments. she was rude and did not gain the type of commentary that could and should have happened with someone with a little more maturity. sorry, larry, that’s my thought. i have to have written an article published by the federal reserve bank on the use of language and i found her views immature and rude. whereas her intention may have been good and some of the thinking behind it spot on, the delivery in my view didn’t help the cause.

Louie

I disagree, I thought she was straightforward, expressing her opinion with clarity, and passion.

I took no offense, whatsoever.
AnninCA

I’ve seen many posters behave in incredibly rude ways.

Beware of throwing stones when living in glass houses.

typewriterstreaming

It’s just plain ugly to watch this public lashing of SOC. Just plain ugly.

hadenough

farm animals under their care.

Larry some people might be highly suggestible. Think of the poor farm animals…
MrMike

I grew up during the Duck and Cover pre-Polio vaccine era too. Nuclear annihilation and Iron Lungs were facts of life. Kids have it easy today.

http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

Me too MrMike. And it’s a wonder we didn’t all contract HepC from that needle they stuck in our arms when they had us line up for the shot.

James

Nicely said, Larry.

Guantanamo is a real stain, and should be corrected. Fairly and lawfully prosecute or release detainees.

The most awful thing about the last years, and this election cycle, was the hate/fear mongering on ethnic and religious grounds. America is better than that.
need to know

Was Iraq & Afghanistan the first time America used pre-emptive strikes? “Pre-emptive strikes” seem so un-American to me.
http://www.marklevinshow.com/ American Sphere of Influence

Dc is right about closing Gitmo…
She is right that is….
Until we have a repeat of what happened that fateful day.
Then it will be Deja vu !

Seattle Moss

That’s a great name you came up with Moss!

That’s exactly what we’re giving up with an Obama administration

American Sphere of Influence

What we can look forward to seeing in the next year is a realignment in the global power structure. The United States will lose whole regions under it’s sphere of influence which will cause wholesale contractions in our markets and a collapsing of our standard of living. America will lose it’s bargaining position and will be subjected to others authorities..
Why the National Suicide!!!

This happened in England after the collapse of empire. Massive implosion of heavy industries related to Britain’s expansive empire

Now we are on the verge of Losing American power in the world..
Obama appears weak so the rest of the world will realign without the worry of American protecting it’s interests.

TeakWoodKite

Britain’s expansive empire, and there before the coal went they.

Energy supplies.
beebop

The pirates on the open seas are only the beginning, I believe.

Louie

The United States will lose whole regions under it’s sphere of influence which will cause wholesale contractions in our markets and a collapsing of our standard of living. America will lose it’s bargaining position and will be subjected to others authorities..

I disagree, you’re looking at a static criteria that assumes all nations are equal in resources, ie Americans are Chinese, Americans are Russians.

We’re not.

Traffic moves both ways.

Sometimes, even one key guy in an administration of flaming incompetents can make a difference in psychological perception, (based on truth, btw, not the BS Cheney and Obama kooks try to sell).

For Bush, it was Gates, the BEST hire of his administration, if Obama hires Clinton, and she manages to run, or even reform state, in a serious, sober manner (as opposed to a political one) it can often be enough to rebuild faith in the US.

Same with the new AG, if he pursues criminality charges against those who cleaned out the treasury, a tricky maneuver given Obama’s connections, he can restore faith in the US, in terms of the ability to insure a safe, stable investment not prone to loss through corruption.

We are not Russia, we are not Iran.

Money, the money, the intellectual money that comes out of the US still can’t be matched, at it’s best.

Cheney, and even Washington, aren’t America, best not to get your impressions from the MSM.

But yeah, we’re still in for a bumpy ride.

socalannie

Agreed. Guantanamo is disgusting and un-American. The comparison to the Soviet gulags is a good one. Good point by Strawberry that its more likely to increase terrorism rather than to discourage it.
kgirl1028

I agree totally GITMO is a total boil on the but of society. If we condone that type of behavior here then we put our on troops at risk.

RebelCarol

I have a question for you and Socolannie: Where in heaven’s name could we incarcerate these prisoners then if we didn’t put them in Gitmo? We didn’t have the facilities on the field to imprison them, so we had to send them somewhere. Were we to just turn them loose to try to kill or maime our soldiers again? No – we couldn’t take that course of action.

Reality not religion

Are you aware they were intentionally put in Gitmo, off American soil, because it was intentional to take them off our land where what was being done to them was illegal? I mean their placement there was intentional, because it was illegal. If I recall that was the basis behind it.

“Were we to just turn them loose to try to kill or maime our soldiers again?”

Are you aware of the teenagers, and middle aged business men being held there with absolutely no proof they had any connection to anything terrorist related? In that statement you act like we had no other piece of land anywhere to hold them.

good ole Fox news…

kgirl1028

i have not problem with incarcerating criminals what i have prlbem with is not being able to tell the difference between the zookeepers and the animals they keep. It’s not what you do it’s how you do it.

ritamary

Soldier of Christ has been posting nutjob opinions for quite some time. I have been ignoring them until now. Could I correct one more of Soldier of Christ’s errors?

“this soldier knows what these yellow bellies will do when they are loose in the United States waiting for trial…” Nobody has ever said the Guantanamo prisoners would be allowed out of prison while they are awaiting trial. Some may be guilty of terrorist acts, some may not. All of them may be guilty, but we just don’t know that because none of them have received a fair trial. That is the whole point!

kgirl1028

I have nothing wrong with the detention of criminials. However I do i have a problem when you can’t tell the difference between the zoo keepers and the animals.
Louie

“this soldier knows what these yellow bellies will do when they are loose in the United States waiting for trial

Sounds like “Jesus General.”

Galt

We should not trash the USC out of fear of terrorists. They’ve won, when we react in fear and violate our most sacred principles.

Strawberrybitch

I agree.
kgirl1028

like attack the wrong country?
Snickers

That’s it exactly Galt and Strawberry.

SHV

“You are welcome to disagree with Clara, but if you are going to adopt the name “Soldier of Christ,” then have the decency to conduct yourself as a goddamn Christian.”
************
A religion which believes a person, who doesn’t accept their concept of god, is going to “burn in agony for eternity” would have no problem with Gitmo.

Galt

A religion which believes a person, who doesn’t accept their concept of god, is going to “burn in agony for eternity” would have no problem with Gitmo.

This is not a fair statement. Fundamentalists might think that, but not the entire religion.

JM

One does not have to be a fundamentalist Christian to believe what Soldier of Christ believes. I, for one, feel it necessary to have a separate prison for radicals, but I also believe that a trial should take place to investigate if the reasons for holding a particular person are justified. I would hate to be imprisoned under false circumstances. I do think that Larry was a little hard on SoC.

Galt

To be clear, I was only replying to the notion all Christians interpret the bible literally. This is clearly not true.

Moss

Here is a picture for a thousand words
If we can have a government that has Hillary as SOS and Bill as close adviser I will sleep much better.
After all I’m a Reagan/Clinton democrat..Having Both Bill & Hillary in the white house is a nice consolation prize. I think in two years you can call this administration the
Clinton and a little bit Obama administrationhttp://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20081119/2008_11_19t104328_450x304_us_usa_obama_clinton.jpg?x=400&y=269&q=85&sig=xa6oJs4WiG9zx0S9FSsDgA–

Moss

I wish that had worked…Oh well
A nice picture of Bill, Hillary and Barky all sitting together…

TeakWoodKite

. I was raised learning how to duck and cover under my school desk in the event of a Soviet nuclear attack

LJ Me too. In fact if I had to think of one thing from all my grade school years that informed me and caused me to ask WHY?!, it was not doing my school work or homework or my dishes or my chores or anything else on “gods” green earth or even hot wiring my older brother’s slant six for a joy ride to Cold Springs Harbor and place called “keyhole”.

Nope. It was wondering if my shadow would be burned to the floor as I sat under my desk.

I really enjoyed reading DCMediaGirl’s article today. I especially liked the part were the author knew what the static would be. LOL.

TeakWoodKite

oops, The Keyhole

King Zog was the king of Albania before World War II. As the Italians invaded Albania he and his Queen fled with the national treasure. Living as a jet setter in exile he dreamt of setting up a feudal kingdom outside his former homeland. He eventually, in 1951, bought the Knollwood estate, in Muttentown.

SHV

“This is not a fair statement. Fundamentalists might think that, but not the entire religion.”
*********
I agree..but the “fundamentalists” are the face of the Christian religion today; even the old “main-stream” denominations are adopting the same worship formats as the “fundamentalists” in order to maintain their membership.

Galt

How does one quantify the “face” of the religion? I’d like to know what percentange of Christians take the bible literally. I think the number is pretty low. I’d also like to know what percentage of churches preach the literal interpretation of burning in hell for non-conformity? Your original statement was not fair. Your clarification is an improvement but I still question you assertion. By the way I have no axe to grind, I don’t follow a religion but respect the right of others to do so, or NOT.

WildChild

if you take the old testament literally, you burn n hell for eating pork. Remember that one at your next pig pickin all you thumpers

shadow

This isn’t true.
melisa

Have not seen anything in the OT to support your assertion.

melisa

Jesus is the face of Christianity.

Andrew P

There are a billion Roman Catholics in the world, I am one of them, and I strongly disagree that “fundamentalists are the face of the Christian religion today.”

Unless you mean in the American MSM. And we all know how reliable they are.

JozefAL

Andrew, even in the world of Catholicism, there ARE “fundamentalists”.
The very idea that women can’t be priests because of gender is as much a “fundamentalist” concept as anything else. When the Pope uses the words of the Bible to support his rationale, that is “fundamentalism”. Nearly every position that the Pope takes is supposedly based on the Bible as it’s written–no allowances are made for relativism (most notably, differences in cultural practices that have developed since the books of the Bible were first written). Relativism, in fact, runs contrary to absolutism (and absolutism is a key component of authoritarianism of all sorts).

workingclass artist

Ehemmm…I beg to differ Jozefal…
Fundamentalists are protestant by and large. The RCC has traditionalists…and fringes.
The RCC holds equal or greater weight to tradition over scripture since tradition developed from apostolic succession…Something protestants tend to not recognize…Even tose chruches that recite the creed….
Some traditions are theologically foundational like the sacraments…Female Priests is one the RCC will not compromise on…Just is…Some traditions or practice may evolve…But the foundation principles do not change. For example Confession is still required as is Penance at least once a year ( Before Easter ) so the practice has been modified but not eradicated and not changed except cosmetically…It still retains it’s sacramental principle…I’m just sayin…

Kbentleyis

Good for you, Larry. Well said.
Touchet

Work it! Work it!
Northwest rain

One of the major arguments against Guantanamo and torture — is that this violation of the rules of war makes it even more dangerous for the Soldiers if they are caught by the enemy.

I didn’t see this point made in the any of the comments above — and if so I apologize for repeating the point.

During the cold war my father flew spy missions over “enemy” territory (not at war but . . .) — Russia, China and North Korea. Military brats are really good at figuring out what our dads do for a living — and we also know not to talk about this ever. I never even told my husband what my dad did until the media (US News and World Reports & Nightline) broke the story in the late 1980s.

The point of this is — that Guantanamo and the torture means that it is unlikely that the other side will take prisoners and if they do our guys were are (were) tortured and killed.

There are reasons why the rules of war were established — and the US signed on to this treaty. Bush violated the treaty — made up his own rules and in doing so he endangered the military and probably cost a lot of lives of the troops.

Some of the prisoners might be guilty — I’ve not seen the evidence. But we do know that many of the prisoners were SOLD to the US military (as mentioned above).

Fair trials, defendants right to see the evidence and have competent defense lawyers. Any less then this throws out what our country stand for — it returns us to the rules of the despot/dictator/jungle.

elise

Excellent argument, NW rain. Even if there were no intrinsic benefit to morality, there is usually a practical reward for morality.
stodgie

we were able to deal with the criminals from ww2, so we should be able to deal with them now. the fact is bush and cronies totally screwed this up. gito is a stain, no doubt about it. we need to resolve it. i believe there are some real bad guys there along with some poor souls who have no business being there. my main complaint is the lack of rights and the endless nightmare going on and on. ok, let’s close this place and take a good look at who is really there and why. try the ones who need it. i don’t care for long drawn out show trials. however what bush was doing was a holy mess.

Louie

There are reasons why the rules of war were established — and the US signed on to this treaty. Bush violated the treaty — made up his own rules and in doing so he endangered the military and probably cost a lot of lives of the troops

.

Not one was a soldier, not one ever served on the front lines, (they were) in charge of a somewhat corporate military, even less of government. No moral hazard, never having to risk anything of value to them, not their lives, nor that of their families, or children, and so weak, psychologically and intellectually, when faced with real threat, they break, terrified, becoming more acquiescent to totalitarian suggestion at the first sign of threat because they cannot handle their own fear.

Clinton, btw, did not behave this way.

It’s almost as if there is this lack of reality, lack of qualification, an absolute inability to understand WHY we dont’ take the military to war, casually, they are unable to understand the reasoning behind the Constitution, behind our rules, specious thinkers, wholly unqualified.

And to think, they have advanced Ivy League degrees!

RebelCarol

well, this soldier knows what these yellow bellies will do when they are loose in the United States waiting for trial,

If Guantanamo is closed, the prisoners will not be turned loose while waiting for trial. They will be put in a secure prison while waiting to go to trial. It may be awhile before we can close Guantanamo because the government has to decide where to transfer the prisoners. Please calm down and try to think rationally.
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

I wish I knew enough about this issue to comment. Ughhh…I just don’t. I am really terrified to have died in the wool terrorists let loose in this country. But of course I don’t think ANYONE should be wrongfully detained or imprisoned. I just wonder why we are so concerned with the rights of terrorists when they really didn’t care about our rights.

Galt

I just wonder why we are so concerned with the rights of terrorists when they really didn’t care about our rights.

That’s easy to understand I think. In order for us to have liberty, we have to extend all facets of that liberty even to those trying to harm us. That liberty includes the right to a trial and humane treatment. When we give up our most sacred principles, the terrorists win. Liberty is painful, but well worth the price.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Yes Galt, despite all the whiners who hate America…we are STILL the most balanced and fair justice system in the world. My personal feeling is that we err on the side of the bad guy, and that’s why I didn’t go to law school. Yes we can only be a civilized society with the fairness we speak of. I’m just sad that the parts of the world at issue will not catch up.

Reality not religion

“STILL the most balanced and fair justice system in the world”

I see no proof that this is true compared to many other peaceful, civilized countries.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Then move.

Reality not religion

that is an irrational response. You make a standard statement based on nothing about what this country offers that some other country doesn’t offer.

then you make a snarky comment telling me to move. I guess I’m one of those “America haters” you were referring to in another post if we don’t agree with your extremely narrow view of reality.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Uhhhh…It’s really simple. If you HATE it here..God bless you…MOVE.
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

How about THIS you SCUM?

Move to AFRICA…see how ‘PEACEFUL’ THAT IS.

STFU TROLL.

TheAntiBigot

You are another example of the “enemy of my enemy” scum this blog pandered tp while facing the General Election. Yesterday you called 70 million Americans scum, every day you get worse.

I guess the reaction to people like you and SOC is a good judgement of how this blog will go.

AnninCA

No, we’re coming off of a real swing to the right about law and order and taking away rights.

That’s clear.

WildChild

These are the rules we live by. Why would it matter what they think.
Reality not religion

ah, because we are not an eye for an eye country?

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Do you actually get a paycheck from OVomit or do you trade “favors?” Just curious scum.

TheAntiBigot

Are you paid by StormFront or the Free Republic? Anyway this is not their site.

Snickers

Well I really like Ghandi’s comment about this revenge thing: an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. We need to practice what we preach and abide by the treaties/rules/laws we signed onto. We need to really embrace humane treatment for everyone – everyone, no matter who they are. If we don’t strive for enlightenment and try to live up to our nation’s ideals and vision and uphold our Constitution, then all we have is anarchy. I prefer civil and civilized discourse. Just because we can, doesn’t mean we should obliterate nations and step on people’s rights. Would you want your rights stepped on?

TeakWoodKite

Great post Mr. Johnson.

What goes unmentioned is that the loss Habeas Corpus made all this “legit”.

You think that might get fixed any time soon Mr.Johnson?

If it is one thing that sets “civilized nations” apart it is this.

I miss it.
Judy L. NC

Mr. and Mrs. Johnson di’n't raise no indecisive kids.

This is a wonderfully passionate piece, Larry. Thanks for sharing.
hootnannie

If someone truly believes something, I think he/she should be able to state that belief. And, when we read someone’s opinion, we don’t know whether it’s a genuine personal concept or whether it’s a verbal bomb meant to antagonize. We should–and do–either criticize the thinking or denounce it as a trollism.
Larry, thank you for clearing this up for me. I, as a generally fiscal liberal and cultural conservative, cannot find a blogsite in which I can tow a party line or fit within PC admonitions. I give my opinion. If I think most Americans agree with me, I say so–but I never foolishly believe that I speak for all of us. And, as I previously stated, if someone actually believes something, that person should be able to say so. He/she should not have to worry that it doesn’t fit within prescribed thinking. Political correctness has caused people to fear speaking their minds on certain issues, but that doesn’t mean they don’t think it. Take same-sex marriage, for instance. I personally believe in rights for gay people, including open service in the military. But I don’t believe in same-sex marriage, and no one is going to change my opinion by shutting it out or by browbeating me. They MIGHT by polite argument. But if everyone on any given blogsite has to just pretend to support same-sex marriage, then no progress for the proponents will ever be made by that particular site.
AnninCA

It was just pick on DC Media day. She must be doing something right! *hehe

Great article….and I don’t trust any blog that is overly consistent in viewpoint. Fact is, we’re all a bit liberal on this or conservative on that.

That’s normal.
Sassy

Larry, in all honesty, I think few Americans rationalize this detention camp.
For those who pay attention, there have been many voices decrying the unlawful detention and rendition of people.
Senators Graham, Leahy, Specter put up a good fight, as well as the JAGs who spoke with these prisoners.
While I believe many of them are extremely dangerous, I would rather respect the rule of law and handle them appropriately.
kailyne

relatively new to this site, so my apologies if i am not posting in the right area, but does anyone have any more info. about news that the president-elect’s plan to close Guantanamo Bay could end up being nothing more than a cosmetic fix? (although i agree that any fix at this point is a step in the right direction).

From Democracy Now – “Advisers Are Reportedly Crafting a Plan to Create a New System of Preventive Detention and National Security Courts”.

Here’s the link:
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/17/as_obama_reiterates_call_to_close

not well versed on this, and so I appreciate this thread and any additional insights. thanks.

Louie

Maybe.

But it was expected, given Obama’s record on the war.

He fooled no one.

No one really expected any change, anyone with their eyes open.

tusoli

We may disagree on some subjects but I am 100% behind you on that subject, Larry.

It is not by behaving badly ourselves that we encourage badly-behaving others to behave rightly.

Those talibans ho admittedly and I believe it are bad guys, dangerous guys desrve like anybody a trial, and by behaving like them we encourage to carry on behaving as they are.
By obliging them to face a real judicial system, do we show them and the world that good honest people are not afraid of Justice for any one.
And if they deserve the death penalty, well, it should be applied to them and if there are some innocents in their midst , those innocents deserve to have their rights upheld.
TakeBackGameNite

to simply recap voting for gitmo:

in 2005, both obama and mccain thought and voted to keep gitmo open. hillary voted no.

suddenly, in 2007, when the race was on – not so popular. both mccain and obama said it needs to be closed.
I’m a Linda too

Nicely said.
Louie

One thing we should keep in mind is 9.11 happened, in part, because of the total incompetency of the Bush administration.

He was given warning, intelligence, and others, were insisnet 9.11 would happen, Bush took no action.

(The executive is a real job, btw).

If he had, like Clinton did in regard to the attempted LAX 2000 bombing, this conversation would be moot.

We will always face threat, out intelligence can handle it, a poor executive cannot.

Follow the money…

Idiocracy08

And we all knew before 9/11 happened that Bush would go into Iraq to get Saddam.

He said as much on the campaign trail when the reporters asked him about going after Saddam before he was president, and W said “he did try to kill my diddy” (and i meant to write diddy because that how he said it).

He had to go finish off what Poppy started with the slanted drilling of oil from Kuwait into Iraq by Zapata Oil (owned by the Bushes)
shadow

Didn’t Clinton have a chance to get Bin Laden and passed it up? I also remember the horrendous fiasco in Somalia.

Louie

Do you think capturing Bin Laden would have made a difference?

If 9.11 wasnt his, someone else from AQ would have done the deed, for all practical purposes BL is dead, and terrorism has hardly abated, world wide.

But again, I think 9.11 could have been prevented if Bush had recognized the threat, and acted, he didn’t.

That’s why I never bought into the whole “blame intelligence” meme.

He HAD the intelligence, from Richard Clarke’s warnings, to the PDB, to Tenet, and Clark, visiting Rice’s office, making their case (even to Bush, right?).

This was a failure of the executive.

AnninCA

This is one case where I thought he wanted to go to war to vindicate his dad….

and 9-11 was the excuse.

I usually hate psyche explanations or imposing therapy terms on politicians, but this was a case of Daddy stuff.

Just my 2 cents.
shadow

I guess we don’t really know if it would have happened or not. It’s true the mastermind of 9-11 was someone else but didn’t Bin Laden have all the money connections?

Yea, i remember watching a program on PBS that the U.S. had intelligence about Al-Quaeda and no one would listen to the guy. Ironically, he died in 9-11, but i thought the intelligence went back to during the Clinton administration. I’m sure there’s enough blame to go around for all involved.

Idiocracy08

Thanks for pointing that comment out Larry. Only extremists and radicals think that way Soldier of Christ does.

SoC called me a bleeding heart liberal because I said to prove them guilty first. And compared me to the judges that let child molesters go. Honestly, I really have a hard time with the death penalty, except for child molesters. I can agree with torture and death for those scum. Hypocrite? Yes, and not forgiving about it either.

Something that I don’t see a lot written about is a big fact about torture. Someone has to do the torturing. I don’t want our men and women being trained to do that to someone who may not be guilty. I think our military is better than that. I know the terrorists don’t care about us…and I don’t care about them. But I do care about the men and women of this great country and don’t want them to be torturers.

And SoC also suggested that I’m a Zionist Jew if I wouldn’t accept them into my home…and that Jesus wasn’t about peace & He hates me. Shit! I wouldn’t let them in my home, any more than I would let Soldier of Christ in my home. I think I’ll start referring to him/her as Soldier of Anti-Christ!

I hate to tell SoC, but Jesus loves me this I know…for the bible tells me so!

workingclass artist

Idiocracy…I have a problem with the death penalty simply because I object to the STATE having that much power…Incarceration yes…Penalty…Etc…But when the state acts in a corrupt fashion and executes an innocent…How is that repealed? I’m just sayin…
With regards to GITMO…Like other decisions made in a knee jerk fashion we have compromised integrity…And if allowed…Who is next?

Idiocracy08

I saw a made for HBO movie called Somebody Has to Shoot the Picture. It was about a guy getting the death penalty…even though he was innocent. That pretty much made up my mind about it. And now with DNA proving people innocent has really solidified how I feel.

But, unfortunately I’m a hypocrite. I do have an exception for guilty child molesters that kill. Like the guy in Florida that killed Jessica Lunsford. No problem with him getting the chair and feeling that was too good for him. And I must admit that I got a chuckle out of McDonald’s putting a sign up that read “Free fries when Bundy fries”.

Louie

I agree.

I’m against the death penalty in general, but I think it was correct to execute the Nazis, at Nuremberg.

I’m also thinking egregious acts of treason should be punished with death.

BTW, the Washington Post is reporting a judge ordered 5 at GITMO to be released.

Good news.

The lawsuits will be enormous, (for wrongful imprisonment), but they ALL deserve the money.

I hope they can go after Cheney and co, personally.

Idiocracy08

maybe go hunting with cheney…and put blanks in cheney’s gun?

Louie

I think the duck could take Cheney, perhaps we can just arm the fowl.

workingclass artist

lol….Reminds me of that story…Dog shoots owner…

Typewriterstreaming

‘Thanks for pointing that comment out Larry. Only extremists and radicals think that way Soldier of Christ does.’

Thanks for pointing out the commenter so he can be ridiculed the way you felt ridiculed?

what has happened to this blog?

Idiocracy08

That was a post that needed to be pointed out. SoC was going after dcmediagirl & others.

I could care less what some faceless person whom I consider to be extremely radical says about me on the internet. Sticks and stones. If you think I’m being rude, then go back and read some of his/her posts.

La Compania Volante

I found that Soldier for Christ’s rant, other than an offhand, mildly (and perhaps unintentional) anti-Semitic reference and some overheated passion to be no more offensive or ignorant than some of the points made in DC Media Girl’s recent posts. I didn’t agree with some of it, but I understood where it was coming from.

Let’s just say that I come closest to agreeing—especially on military matters, the war, the detainees, “war crimes” trials for members of the Bush administration—with an actual soldier who posts here, soldier4hillary. I’m pleased to have found and read her work here, to have viewd her videos, and to know that good people like her are serving this nation. Perhaps she should come back and comment on this article and some of the others written in this vein.

It’s rare to have a forum in which alternate and opposing views may be expressed, discussed, and even argued through passionately without rancor—especially a forum in which there exists as much tolerance for dissenting views as I have seen in this one. Unfortunately, it looks to me like that this forum, as such, is about to expire. I see the death of tolerance here, in this latest series of articles and posts. I hate to say it, but it’s now apparent that the sense of basic unity I observed here earlier, prior to the election, is disappearing. Inevitable, I suppose—the posters here represent quite a diverse group, but mostly to left of center politically, and PUMA’s alternate meaning doesn’t lend itself to longevity as an organized group, anyway. The shared purpose—first in defending Sen. Clinton, then Sen. Palin and Sen. McCain against lies and other attacks, and defeating Obama in the election—is gone. Without that, people here are reverting into partisan mode, reviving old prejudices and old rancor, and just plain fighting and tossing insults.

I was considering supporting this site with advertising, perhaps submitting an article or two, but … I figure that centrist Constitutionalist independent conservatives like myself will soon be persona non grata here. Oh, well. I guess that’s why there’s no centrist third party in America and probably never will be. Too bad. Whether it succeeded in national elections or not, competition like that might keep the Democrats and the Republicans honest, or at least afraid to be too blatant about looting the treasury and redacting the Constitution.

Thank you, Mr. Johnson, for providing this site, for all the good work you’ve done with it. I have appreciated reading it and participating in it in a small way as a poster.

I leave you all with this one last thought:

The media at which you have been so enraged lately, the media that has lied to you, that has defamed you and the people you have supported in politics this year, didn’t change overnight, didn’t change in the past year, or even in the last several years. This process, this evolution from a supposedly unbiased, ethical, and reliable journalistic tradition has taken place over the past three decades. The process has accelerated in recent years, yes, but that’s how it is done—the frog-in-cold-water, bring-to-slow-boil treatment. That media has formed many of your opinions over the span of years that you’ve been subjected to it. Do you know, any more, what exactly is the truth, and what is propaganda?

I may drop in here from time to time to see what’s going on, but I probably won’t post. I do wish you all well—vaya con dios, amigos.

Typewriterstreaming

For the second day in a row authors on this blog have chosen to take very public issue with commenter’s. At least today’s author has the courage to specifically name a person, (unlike yesterday’s covert post by DC Media Girl. That post manipulatively used the lack of such specifics to extend to all its’ message that you will be called out and shamed if you hold specific views that the author found uncomfortable). So today we find another similiar post meant to annihilate an opinion along with the encouragement of group think. Its the very public lashing the commenter receives that is notable, not the divergent opinion. I have seen SOC post here before and thought their participation on this blog was indicative of the tolerance of consideration given to diverging opinions unique to a handful of web blogs. Once again I am disappointed to see attmepts to ostracize those whose opinion is difficult for some to hold, and by making a public example of those individuals send a covert message of control to all commenter’s. I am saddened to see NQ become yet another arena for high lighting the encouragment of speech suppression, for group think and for using a self made bully pulpit to do so.

Idiocracy08

I don’t believe Soldier of Christ’s post was meant to be for only a certain group.
It’s on a public site. Soldier of Christ knows he/she can be quoted anywhere on this site.

Why is ok for one person to have an opinion, but it’s not ok to disagree with it? Or to argue back a rebuttal?

SoC started in with the anti-semite stuff. That cannot be tolerated.

This person is calling themself Soldier of Christ. If you are going to use Christ’s name, then you may not want to be so rude to people. State your opinion all you want…but don’t go telling other posters you know NOTHING about that Jesus hates you.

bert

Another great post, Larry. I agree totally. You have a very balanced perspective and help me to clarify, and put into words, my vague thoughts and ideas.