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Republicans: Show Us Your Hand

By SusanUnPC: You know that Senate Democrats are forcing the Republicans to debate Iraq all night. The latest is that Speaker Nancy Pelosi is leading “a march of House members from the House to the Senate tonight to lend their support to Senate Democrats” …
 
Howard Dean just sent out a great e-mail titled, “Put on a pot of coffee”:

It’s going to be a long night for the U.S. Senate.

Senate Republicans are threatening to filibuster a bill by Senators Levin and Reed that would require President Bush to begin troop withdrawal within 120 days, with most coming home by April 2008.

But Senator Majority Leader Reid has decided that he’s not going to let them just make a threat and walk away — he’s going to make them stand up in front of the American people and show them just how much they want to stay in Iraq. A few Republicans have started to say the right things, but we don’t know whether they actually have the backbone to stand with the American people and vote the right way, and the threat of a filibuster gives them all the cover they need.

Now, let’s not kid ourselves: they can filibuster, and we probably won’t have the votes to stop them. But if Senate Republicans are against ending the war, then they should show it by voting against the legislation — a straight-up-and-down vote on a bill that the majority of Americans support. That’s how a democratic government works.

Instead, they’re threatening to block the vote, and we’re going to force them to explain themselves in front of the American people.

Send your Senators a message right now:

http://www.democrats.org/IraqObstruction

The news reports are rightly emphasizing the need to make the Republicans declare their opposition to protecting our troops — by refusing to support the Levin-Reed amendment (similar to Webb’s amendment last week and to Rep. Skelton’s amendment passed in the House).

Seattle Times/AP:

The rare, round-the-clock session tonight through Wednesday morning is intended to bait Republicans into an exhaustive debate on the politically unpopular war, as well as punish GOP members for routinely blocking anti-war legislation.

NYT:

Reaching for a tried-and-true Senate practice, Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the majority leader, said he would force lawmakers to go on record in votes around the clock until a procedural showdown Wednesday morning on a proposal to begin withdrawing troops within 120 days, with most troops out by next spring. He said Republicans were using the threat of a filibuster, which can only be cleared with 60 votes, to protect President Bush from a policy rebuke.

“This week we’ll make Republicans answer for their refusal to allow an up or down vote on the most important issue facing our country today,” Mr. Reid said. “We’re going to work today. We’re going to work tomorrow and work tomorrow night. We’re going to continue working on this until we get a vote on this amendment.”

Perhaps the most eloquent voice I’ve heard was that of Sen. Carl Levin last night on PBS Newshour. (By the way, Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) has signed on to the Levin/Reed amendment.)

This was one of those occasions where a non-commercial setting like PBS’s Newshour proved its worth — where Levin, with his calm, professorial manner with his eyeglasses balanced halfway down his nose, was allowed to speak at length, rather than in soundbites or constantly interrupted by the likes of a Chris Matthews, about his amendment and his hopes to bring the Senate to a consensus. There was so much that Sen. Levin said that was powerful and meaningful. You can listen, watch, or read the transcript here. Some snippets:

Levin Proposes Starting to Pull Troops from Iraq in Three Months

Sen. Carl LevinSEN. CARL LEVIN (D), Michigan: Well, what we do, Senator Jack Reed and I, is to say that American troops will begin to be reduced within the next 120 days or more technically 120 days after enactment of our amendment. And then the transition to the new, limited missions will be completed by April of next year. And those new limited missions would be force protection and also a limited or a very pointed counterterrorism mission against al-Qaida.

But ours is the only amendment that we know of so far that is binding, that would tell the Iraqis that we are going to begin to take a step to force them to take responsibility for their own nation. It’s long overdue; the Iraqis have been fiddling while their Baghdad capital has been burning. And there is no solution in Iraq other than a political solution.

The only hope of ending the violence and avoiding an all-out civil war is if the political leaders of Iraq come together and work out those differences over the political issues that divide them, including resource sharing, including elections in the provinces, including the de-Baathification laws and so forth.

[...]

SEN. CARL LEVIN: Well, I don’t want our troops in the middle of a civil war. That’s not the limited mission that we’re talking about, that anybody’s talking about here, that the Baker-Hamilton people talked about. It’s not to get in the middle of their civil war; it’s to get out of the middle of their civil war and to force them to avoid an all-out civil war by working out the differences.

It’s not that we need a larger force to prevent them from having a civil war. We’ve got to start reducing the forces to force them to reach a political compromise to avoid an all-out civil war.

I was also impressed by both Woodruff’s questions and Sen. Levin’s expressed concerns for the Iraqi people:

JUDY WOODRUFF: And what about the fate, Senator, of those Iraqis who have been supportive — of Iraqi civilians in general, and particularly those who have been supportive of the U.S. mission?

SEN. CARL LEVIN: The current course is endangering the people of Iraq continually. It’s the current course which isn’t working; it’s the current course which has led to huge slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. It’s that course which has to change.

And there’s only one group that can change it, and that’s the Iraqi political leaders. And if they can’t do it, the parliament over there, their assembly, ought to get a government in place which can accomplish a political settlement.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And just to broaden that out, Senator, the notion that there is maybe some moral responsibility on the part of the United States, because it was the United States who came in over four years ago, who has led this war in Iraq, participated in this war, and now to pull out, what responsibility does the U.S. have to the people of that country?

SEN. CARL LEVIN: I think we’ve got a huge responsibility. The way this government went in, the way the Bush administration went in unilaterally, arrogantly, the way in which we didn’t wait for the U.N. to give its support to what we were doing, the way we did in the first Gulf War, there’s a huge moral responsibility.

And we have a huge responsibility to the Iraqi refugees. There are now four million Iraqi refugees, half in the country who’ve been moved out of their homes, the other half outside of the Iraq. And you bet we have a moral responsibility.

And the bigger responsibility here rests with the Iraqi political leaders. And since, by their own words, by everybody’s agreement there is no military solution, there’s only a political solution, we shouldn’t wait any longer to force the Iraqi leaders to undertake that political solution. …

Read/watch all.

  • Doran Williams

    President Lincoln arrested the Maryland Legislature to prevent a vote on secession, which would probably have been pro-secession. Given Bush’s arrogance and Rove’s theory that the President in time of war has dictatorial powers, I can’t help but wonder if the Twerps-n-charge have the cojones to arrest some Democrats, so as to “fix” the vote outcome.

  • taters

    Go Carl! He’s my senator. His brother, Sander (Sandy)is my House Rep. Both of them could have made tons of money in the private sector. They exemplify to me what is good and noble about public service.

  • taters

    Thanks Susan, you rock!

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    Taters, you lucky fellow having such a smart, thoughtful senator!

    Mine are okay too. Sens. Murray and Cantwell. Btw, I was in the car at noon today when the Ron Reagan Show was on KIRO AM 710 (a Seattle station), and he got Sen. Murray on to talk about the all-nighter coming up. She was great, and Reagan is always a wonderful host — both gentlemanly and knowledgeable. Sen. Murray said she sees glimmers of hope that the Republicans are beginning to move. But it’s going to take a long time.

    Oh, McJoan at Daily Kos has a great fun piece:

    Via Think Progress, let’s take a stroll down memory lane to see the amazing flip-flopping Senate minority leaders when it comes to filibusters.

    Two years ago:

    Sen. Trent Lott (R-MS): “[Filibustering] is wrong. It’s not supportable under the Constitution. And if they insist on persisting with these filibusters, I’m perfectly prepared to blow the place up.”

    Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) spokesman: “Senator McConnell always has and continues to fully support the use of what has become known as the ‘[nuclear]’ option in order to restore the norms and traditions of the Senate.”

    Today, with McConnell threatening a permanent filibuster on all Iraq amendments, forever: …

    ALL.

    Mitch McConnell is such an obstructionist, come hell or high water.

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    Anybody else watching C-Span2?

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    Lisa P. e-mailed this to me:

    Watch C-SPAN2 tonight. I called Pelosi’s office and was told that would be helpful. High numbers for CSPAN coverage would send a message!

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    Live-blogging at DailyKos, all night long:

    Liveblog Mothership – It goes to 11, see?

    And McJoan has another FP story:

    Howard Dean says “Put on a pot of coffee”
    by mcjoan
    Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 05:26:51 PM PDT

    It’s going to be a long night. Greg Sargent has confirmed with Sarah Binder, an expert in governance studies at Brookings Institution that Reid’s parliamentary procedure on this is solid. …

  • oldtree

    Why do I keep thinking this is a dog and pony show for a worthless bill that a signing statement will negate? Why would they fight this? Is there is something I am missing in this grand theater unless it is simply for entertainment.

  • PrchrLady

    Hey Taters, we are lucky, aren’t we??? Dingell is my rep, and I am furious with him right now… that gas tax, and all… but I love my man Levin…

  • Leslie

    It’s not simply entertainment. Do you think it’s fun for them to spend the night in the Senate, instead of going home? They’re talking themselve to death!

    The point is to make the GOP eat the filibuster. Because they’re trying to filibuster every bill the Democrats propose–to block votes with a simple majority and require 60 votes instead. The Reed-Levin amendment, which the GOP is blocking, would bring the troops home 120 days after being adopted. Harry Reid is telling the GOP…you want to filibuster, then let’s stay here all night.

    It’s what a lot of lefty blogs have been asking the Dems to do!

  • Leslie

    Oldtree,
    Because the filibuster is on the Senate floor, nationally televised on C-Span—that means that we get to see who will really support the troops by passing Levin-Reed, and who wants to kill it from even reaching a vote. That’s the point of this.

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    Right, Leslie.

    We can’t just roll over. This is what the American people expect of Congress — and if the President vetos the bill, the blame goes to him and his lapdogs in the Senate.

  • taters

    Yes,PrchrLady, we are. Dingell’s done a helluva lot of good through the years, I guess we can’t win ‘em all. Then again there’s some poor souls who are represented by the likes of someone say Joe Knollenberg, Mike Rogers or a Candace(sp?) Miller who voted with DeLay 90 plus percent of the time.
    Susan,
    I will check out c-span, nowI feel guilty about watching the Tigers. :)

  • taters

    Susan,
    Have you revisited Drive By Jounalism re York’s putrid attack on our guy from NQ & DK in May of 2006 ? What a brilliant piece of work. I do – it’s that GOOD.

  • taters

    Well said, Leslie.

  • Leslie

    Lieberman is on now. Ugh.

  • taters

    Lieberman – what a worthless shill. I’m really tryin’ to be nice here, but damn, its hard.

  • Leslie

    Senator Durbin is asking everyone to call one or more wavering Republicans today, well tomorrow, and urge them to vote for the Levin/Reed Amendment and stop the GOP filibuster.

    Durbin has an all-nighter volunteer call sheet here. So when you call these GOP Senators, you can let Durbin know who you called so he’ll know how effective we’ve been.

    Here is the list of Senators, Durbin is asking us to call:

    My Personal “All-Nighter” Call Sheet

    Senator Durbin, I completed the following phone calls:

    Senator Norm Coleman (R-MN) at (202) 224-5641

    Senator Susan Collins (R-ME) at (202) 224-2523

    Senator Pete Domenici (R-NM) at (202) 224-6621

    Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN) at (202) 224-4814

    Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY) at (202) 224-2541

    Senator John Sununu (R-NH) at (202) 224-2841

    Senator George Voinovich (R-OH) at (202) 224-3353

    Senator John Warner (R-VA) at (202) 224-2023

  • Leslie

    Taters,
    Why are you trying to be nice? ;) Lieberman is a bloody Bushie shill.

  • Mart

    Your lucky taters – my Sen. is Coburn. I think someone took a survey awhile back and OK was voted the looniest delegation in the land. BTW Susan, BarbinMD over at Kos suggested reading all 3618 names of service men and women killed – that would have the wingers hair on fire. Anyone who interrupts their incessant clapping and chanting with reality is hated.

  • mudkitty

    Old tree…perhaps because you give a shit.

  • Shirin

    The Reed-Levin amendment, which the GOP is blocking, would bring the troops home 120 days after being adopted.

    Unfortunately, not exactly. It would bring “most” of the “combat troops” home by April, 2008. That would leave plenty of troops still in Iraq, and some of those would be for “helping the Iraqis to fight the ‘terrorists’ “.

    So, personally, I would not mind if it does not pass the Senate, or if Bush vetoed it because it is not adequate. If all it does is to finally get the Democrats to stand on their two feet and show some strength, that will be a good thing.

  • taters

    Leslie,
    You’re right. Great question, I don’t know if I have a good answer. I probably should of said I’m attempting to restrain myself as opposed to being nice. Maybe because there’s a dam of invectives waiting to burst and my disdain for him is so intense that I don’t want to lose any sleep over his despicable, sorry ass. He’s a boot licker to the nth degree. My contempt for him knows no bounds. But it is what he does and what he supports with his air of righteous indignation that takes me over the top. Mainly though, I’ve got two gigs tomorrow and I’ve got to get some rest tonight. I would love to put a foot in his ass, though. Kristol has the same effect on me.

  • taters

    Mart,
    He’s a real piece of work alright. Hey,do you ever listen to Roy D Mercer? My old buddy Elvin Bishop is from OK. Did you know he was a National Merit Scholar?

  • Mart

    Hey Taters – Roy D Mercer is funny as hell. Elvin Bishop is one talented cat – did not know he was a National Merit Scholar, but not surprised.

  • Mart

    Here’s a little O/T diversion I found amusing: Huffington Post is running an article on how much money bloggers make – out of the 14 profiles only one claims to be operating at a loss:
    http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/07/0714_bloggers/index.htm

    That’s right – Our Lady of the Internment Camps. Claims all the money is tied up in “gold-plated servers” to withstand “huge traffic surges”. Sadly, her servers are like her readers, yearning for the surge that never comes.

    Anyone like to guess which winger billionaire is propping up her laughable site?

  • Dee Loralei

    Hey another damned talented Okie is Wayman Tisdale….. Another one is the great writer Tony Hillerman Boomer Sooner! and all that! All that said, Coburn is an idiot tool. I can’t hardly stand any of the Okie contingent in the US Congress, but most especially their senators. But hell. I live in TN, and my Senators and congresscritters are just as odious.

  • Mart

    Hi Dee LoraLei – always been a big Tisdale fan – seems like a genuinely good guy as well.

  • wethornet

    let me be the skunk at the garden party.

    it is 17 july 2007 and finally, now, the democrats decide to get serious. 10 words: it’s about f*cking time. what took you so f*cking long?

    military history from the loser’s point of view can always be summed up in 4 words: too little, too late.

    i saw reid and mcconnell on cspan like 20 mins. ago. mcconnell asking reid that there won’t be any more votes until 5am and then at 11am.

    IF TRUE, and with the CAVEATS that i am not an expert on senate parliamentary procedures on filibusters this is more bullsh*t from harry reid. here’s why: if there is no vote until 5am then that allows all the r senators to go to sleep, with the exception of the few who are speaking on the floor. this was at like 1145pm est. so harry reid, if i’m correct, (and i pray that i’m not, but fear that i am), is letting mcconnell’s troops escape for the night. what bullsh*t. more kabuki theater. make the motherf*ckers play defense.

    furthermore, the way it’s supposed to work is that only one/couple/a few of the harry’s troops need to be on the floor to demand a vote. and then this forces all 40-50 of mcconnell’s troops to trudge down to vote. and you do this repeatedly during the night. and day. and night. your people can rest; the other side goes thru the physically grueling aspect of this.

    i believe this is how it was done “back in the day”.

    and the thing is, if mcconnell can not get 40 votes then it is over. and they have to have an up or down vote on the levin-reed amendment.

    yes, i am glad this is FINALLY happening. but the rapists have raped my country for 7 years and the elected dems have all to rarely gotten in touch with the inner john paul jones. (amer. revolutionary naval hero, father of the us navy.) the british cdr. asked jones to surrender. jones’ reply: “i have not yet begun to fight.” jones’ proceeded to kick the brits ass.

  • wethornet

    called sen. john warner’s # listed above. that voice mail box is full. call back later.

    he is one of the keys to this. came out of iraq c. oct 2006. codel. said it was going sideways. gave ‘em 60-90 days. that was bush’s first “walter cronkite” (lbj/tet) moment. recently he had 2 more. he’s lost peggy noonan. and he’s lost richard mellon scaife. down blog someone posted how sunday’s pittsburg paper said staying the course was nat’l sucide and watching w in his recent presser they had to question his mental sanity. and if y’all want to focus on 2 or 3 critical r’s contact warner’s office.

    it is now 18 july and warner hasn’t done much. reckon tahm (that’s time for you yankees) moves slowly in the south. pardon me while i go get a rc and a moon pie.

  • Shirin

    Wethornet, I am with you on the four words. And the bill itself isn’t really worth the electrons required to display it on the screen. Withdraw MOST of the COMBAT troops by APRIL, 2008?! Sounds like weasel wording to me.

    When will enough be enough? Only AFTER the roof is finished on that largest embassy in the history of the world? How about instead they try to avoid having to USE that roof?

    the rapists have raped my country for 7 years

    Yeah, well, imagine how an Iraqi-American feels! Raped for 7 years from one end, and presently in the fifth year of a gang rape/murder from the other end.

    And they keep getting away with it.

  • Thinker

    Look Susan, though I can see the frustration of Wethornet, this is positive news.

    Lets hope things gain momentum. However, I do question the Democrat overall strategy for Iraq long term. If we look at why Iraq happened, it is clear Saddam was punnished by those who had the most to loose through the nationalisation of the oil industry. Chauvez and Milosovitch do/did not work well with the good ol’ American corporation. It appears North Korea is beyond working with the American Corporation. And look how they’ve all been treated by Democrat and Republican alike.

    The incumbant leadership of Iraq have turned out to be just another bunch of tyrannical really greedy guys. How is America to protect her interests with no visible involvement?

    I see a big move to solar power in the future, I guess!!!!

  • Shirin

    tell the Iraqis that we are going to begin to take a step to force them to take responsibility for their own nation.

    OK, I know that this is not the most significant part of the speech from an American point of view, but to Iraqis it is a deeply offensive pile of patronizing, imperialist bulls***. It is an insult added to grievous injury. It is a merciless grinding of pounds of salt into near-mortal wounds.

    Iraqis would LOVE to take responsibility for their own nation – why do you think so many of them are shooting at you? Why do you think some 80% nationwide want you out right away?

    So get out of the country and leave them alone so they CAN “take responsibility for their own nation”. Even the meaningless Iraqi make-believe government cannot take a potty break without official approval from the USA, signed in triplicate. Every Iraqi ministry is swarming with U.S. “advisers” without whose approval nothing is valid. So – ummm – what, exactly is it that is preventing Iraqis from “taking responsibility for their own nation”?

    If you really want to “force” Iraqis to take responsibility for their own nation, then start by releasing your desperate stranglehold on them.

  • Shirin

    How is America to protect her interests with no visible involvement?

    How about starting by recognizing and respecting that it is NOT YOUR OIL under our sand. That oil belongs to the people of Iraq, and must be used, as it has been in the past, to benefit the people of Iraq. In order for that oil to be used to benefit the people of Iraq, Iraq must sell it in large quantities.

    It’s simple. We have something you need. We agree to exchange that thing for something we need – money. We negotiate the terms of the exchange of your money for that thing we have which you need. You give us money, we give you oil. Win win, everyone is happy, no one is shooting or bombing the other. Hooray!

  • wethornet

    thinker wrote, Look Susan, though I can see the frustration of Wethornet, this is positive news.

    i’m confused thinker. i do not see a reply from susan to my post. as i type this there are 4 replies since i posted. one by you, three by shirin. is there a post out there from susan that i/we don’t know about?

    thinker, i agree this is positive news. some of the best since the 06 election. and even since florida in 2000. but my god man, at what cost? look at what has happened to our country and the world in the last 7 years. the dems have barely fought. like ever. as martin luther king said, silence is consent.

    shirin, re rape and imagine how iraqis feel. i concur totally. what my government has done makes me literally and figuratively sick. 210 million, out of 300 million americans do not approve of what george bush is doing. and, as is painfully obvious, my country is very sick right now. as i’ve stated, i applaud you for so vigorously and articulately defending iraq, and also simple justice. and yes, your win-win solution: we have oil, you have many. put the guns down makes perfect sense. except the arms makers and the bankers don’t get their pound of flesh. and the ptb (powers that be) don’t get to distract the poor from how they are getting screwed, blued and royally tatooed. it’s an age old thing. the ruler has trouble at home. distract his sheeple with a war.

    i trained with two iraqi officers (good guys) in the early 80′s when i was in the army, and i wonder about them. like what happened to them? are they even alive right now? the brits have their sordid history with iraq. and we backed both sides of the iraq-iran war. we lied about gulf war one. the incubator babies. the 250k troops and tanks on the border……and whoops, a florida paper got ahold of russian satellite photos and there was nothing there. little known fact: neil bush, ghwb’s son from denver, was supposed to testify about the savings and loan scandal a few days after the war conviently started. neil’s bank had a little problem with $1.2 Billion. it disappeared. sanctions. depleted uranium. this damn war. i believe if i were an iraqi i would viscerally hate what americans had done to my country. and i would fight the invaders. as would most americans if another foreign power had done to us what we’ve done to iraq.

    thomas jefferson said that he trembled for his country when he reflected that god was just. (slavery.) lincoln in dec. of 1864, with the war virtually won said he feared for his country. (the money power elites in this country, really turbocharged by the war.) ike said the military industrial complex was out of control in jan. of 1961. i fear that we are headed for a dictatorship. martial law. and that we are damn close right now. just waiting for a convienent attack here at home or gulf of tonkin 2.0.

  • wethornet

    shirin, all. (this is a short post, honest. smiles.)

    one major talking point that would really drive this home is what i’ve said often here. and i am frustrated that i don’t basically see it mentioned virtually at all elsewhere.

    if a foreign country invaded america and killed 7.2 million americans. and caused 22 million americans to flee their homes and move to another part of the country with just what they could carry on their backs and in a car. and caused another 22 million americans to flee the land that they love. and seek refuge in another country. well of course, americans would hate, and despise and fight any way they could that invader’s soldiers.

    the beauty of this talking point is that even the guy who watches faux news “gets it.”

  • wethornet

    briefly, i got a phone call last night from one of dscc/dccc orgs. the dem sen/congressional races looking for money. like a dummy i made a modest contribution because i know that EMILY, early money is like yeast. a dollar now is infintely better than a dollar, or ten, in oct. of 2008.

    it was one of the most beautiful conversations i have ever had.

    this person talks to hardcore dems all over the country. i asked what folks were saying.

    1. many people are responding, the day after you impeach is the day i contribute.
    2. why are the elected dems just lying there and doing nothing?
    3. why, when r’s have control they aren’t nice, but when d’s have control bipartisanship is mandatory? (wethornet comment: you can’t do bipartisanship with people who believe bipartisanship is “date rape.” actual quote.)
    4. people are very, very angry.

    they said the filibuster was going on, so i turned on cspan and saw my old senator, holy joe LIEberman spouting his gibberish. that man pisses me off so much. i am severely tempted to go back to the nutmeg state — once a ct. yankee always a ct. yankee — and launch a recall campaign on his sorry a**. as he was talking i watched with fury. i literally stuck my middle finger (what the uss pueblo guys called the “hawaiian good luck” guesture. the north koreans wanted a photo. they guys did that. what is that yankee. the hawaiian good luck sign mr. captor. photo goes around the world. ohhhh, much loss of face. north koreans not very happy. true story.) at the tv while he was talking. my daughter came in the room and said holy joe couldn’t see me. true, but immaterial. i felt much better.

    hey joe, what infantry outfit is your son in? the one who graduated from high school last spring. spent a year in the middle east. wait for it people……studying in israel. i have a masters from (fort) bennings school for boys. everything you need to know about leadership was on our patch. bayonet with 2 words: “follow me.” when joe’s kids (he and hadassah have 3 others from their previous marriages) join the army then i will listen to him. the men. infantry. the women. transportation corps. running convoys. dodging ieds. until then joe. STFU!

    (well, that wasn’t very brief. my handle should be “raw fury.”)

  • wethornet

    OMG! this is absolutely priceless. and hilarious as well. i’m having technical issues. pls. go to http://www.lewrockwell.com. and if a tech wizard could post the link that’d be great. and if anybody wants to post a link to the origional song so people can listen to it, and/or download it that’s also great.

    the neocons national anthem: laptop warriors from the sky. sung to the tune of staff sergeant barry sadler, special forces, us army. from http://www.lewrockwell.com a national treasure. lew is a great man.
    ~~~~~~~~~

    American flags upon their lapel
    These are men with wars to sell
    One hundred ways to tell a lie
    Senior Fellows at the A.E.I.

    Back at home a martini waits
    And so he packs his attaché case
    He has lied and sold the surge
    In his heart this primal urge

    Put an American flag on my son’s lapel
    Give him wars that he can sell
    But don’t let him go where he could die
    Have him join the A.E.I.

    July 18, 2007

    George Gould [send him mail] is a retired Imperial Storm Trooper and 2nd place finisher in the Southeast Asia War Games. He writes from Valrico, Florida and Falls Church, Virginia.

    Copyright © 2007 LewRockwell.com

  • taters

    Mart – Another nod to OK – Lowell Fulson, ( For thoise not familiar. Clapton covered Lowell’s classic “Reconsider Baby” one of my favorite blues artists of all time ( He was featured in Ray, a young Ray Charles playing piano in his band, David “Fathead” Newman and Stanley Turrentine were also alums of Lowell U )and Leon Russell is also from there. While I’ve had great BBQ across the country – KC, TX, TN and numerous other places, my fave came from OK.
    Dee Loralei – Thanks, I didn’t know that. Tisdale has had a great music career since the NBA and re Hellerman – whom I also enjoy, I wasn’t aware of that either.

    Shirin – I agree that we should purchase oil on the marketplace, like anything else. I know that sounds numbingly simple but it isn’t any more complicated than that to me. And of course Iraq should be able to sell it anyone they choose to. Although I believe that oil was not the primary reason for the invasion of Iraq.
    Wethornet – Strong post.

  • Jerome

    It’s amazing that when repubicans were in control of Congress they did whatever they wanted. Now that the Dems are in control it seems the repubicans stop them at every turn. Dems, your shit is weak.

  • Leslie

    That really should be the GOP/Neocon anthem.

  • Leslie

    Maybe if we all sent Lieberman the Hawaiian good luck sign emails, letters, phone calls…he’d get it?

  • Leslie

    Telluride town council has voted to impeach Bush and Cheney! Want to impeach: build a grassroots groundswell.

    You know, maybe someone ought to ask the bright guys in the GOP Senate who are debating the Reed-Levin amendment, why they use al Qaeda to support staying in Iraq, when al Qaeda is gaining strength outside of Iraq?

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    Jerome, that’s … well. If instead of bashing the Dems, you helped elect more so we could get 60 votes in the Senate, this war would be over.

    First paragraph of top NYT story:

    None of the Republican senators who spoke during an all-night session signaled new support for the Democratic plan to set a deadline for withdrawal. …

    ALL.

    They all dance to Karl Rove’s tune. They’d rather keep killing 100 soldiers a month and killing/wounding a battalion a month than join the Democrats. Except for a few courageous ones like Chuck Hagel.

  • konopelli/wgg

    This whole charade is nothing more than beltway kabuki.
    Heavily symbolic gestures, meaning nothing at all outside the context of the elaborate dance the Dems do to placate their putative, public constituencies wiothout pissing off their REAL bosses in the Pollutocracy/Oiligarchy.

  • Leslie

    Konopelli,
    And what are the GOP doing? You know it’s very easy to be cynical.

  • Leslie

    The Senate just voted for cloture, 52 to 47, and it failed! The Dems can’t garner the necessary 60 votes to break the GOP filibuster and pass the Reed-Levin Amendment to withdraw combat troops within 120 days of passage, and total redeployment by April 2008. The GOP is voting to stay in Iraq indefinitely.

    Reid said, “I want everyone here tonight – every American from coast to coast – to know that we won’t stop fighting until we end this war. That is what this night is all about,” said Reid last night to a crowd assembled at the Capitol as the Senate debate continued. “But we all know this debate won’t end tonight. It won’t end because for all the encouraging words we’ve heard from some Republicans these past few weeks, too few of them are willing to vote the right way too. It won’t end because the majority of Republicans continue to ignore the will of the majority of Americans – and continue to protect the President instead of our troops.”

    It won’t end until we bring EVERY troop home! Let’s call those asshole, wavering Republicans and politely tell them to pull our troops out NOW.

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    The audio isn’t up quite yet, but this Diane Rehm show sounds important to listen to:

    10:00 Future of Iraq
    The debate over U.S. policy in Iraq is keeping the Senate up all night and highlighting differences of opinion on what will happen in Iraq when U.S. combat troops withdraw. Diane and her guests talk about what recent military role-playing exercises and history suggest about Iraq’s possible future.

    Guests
    Dr. Phebe Marr, author of “A Modern History of Iraq” and an expert contributor to the report of the Baker-Hamilton Iraq Study Group

    James Kitfield, senior correspondent, “National Journal” magazine

    Col. Gary Anderson, U.S. Marine Corps–Retired

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    I had to switch channels when he was blathering on … unbearable, really.

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    AWESOME! Just got this via e-mail — it’s from TPM’s Election Central:

    Breaking: Reid Yanks Defense Authorization Bill To Force GOP’s Hand

    By Greg Sargent | bio

    Ratcheting up the stakes in the wake of the GOP’s successful blocking of a vote on Iraq withdrawal just moments ago, Harry Reid just announced on the Senate floor that he won’t allow a vote on the entire Defense Authorization bill until the Senate GOP drops its filibustering of votes on Iraq.
    The move is significant because it could hold up the funding of the Pentagon’s fiscal 2008 priorities until the standoff is resolved.
    It comes only moments after the Republican filibuster succeeded in preventing a vote on the Reed-Levin amendment, which would have mandated withdrawal by April 2008.

    Reid said:

    I have temporarily laid aside the Defense Authorization bill and have entered a motion to reconsider.
    But let me be clear to my Republican colleagues – I emphasize the word “temporarily”. We will do everything in our power to change course in Iraq. We will do everything in our power to complete consideration of a Defense Authorization bill. We must do both.
    And just to remind my Republican colleagues – even if this bill had passed yesterday, its provisions would not take effect until October.
    So we will come back to this bill as soon as it is clear we can make real progress. To that end, I have asked the Democratic Whip and Democratic Manager of the bill to sit down with their counterparts to work on a process to address all outstanding issues related to this bill so the Senate can return to it as soon as possible.

    There’s more.

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    More from that TPM piece:

    What this means is that Reid isn’t allowing any votes on any other Iraq amendments — not the toothless Warner-Lugar amendment, not the Ken Salazar amendment that would force adoption of the Baker-Hamilton plan, nothing.

    Yes, Leslie, it’s easy to be cynical. The rest have to do the slow slogging to get the Senate to begin to pivot on this war. It’s constructive, towards that end, to be supportive to those attempting to change things, and to be vocal to those senators who are still bowing to Bush.

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    We have a new term to use for the Republican Senators who are weinies: WINOs!

    Standing firmly in the slow quicksand of public disapproval and impending electoral defeat, the WINOs, the Waverers in Name Only, voted with their president this morning, blocking passage of the Levin/Reed amendment to the Defense Authorization.

    – From “Protecting their President,” by McJoan

  • Leslie

    YES!!! That’s what we’re talking about!

  • konopelli/wgg

    Nah, it’s damn hard work being as cynical as i…
    been working on it for 40 years, man and boy.
    i’m just now getting it right.
    The Dems’ biggest mistake was making too many, too grand promises, out of the hubris of ‘victory’ last year when the Pukes threw the elections so they could put the Dumbos in precisely the position in which they now find themselves: a do-nothing Congress now owning the war, bag and baggage.
    Now THAT’S world-class cynicism, dhalin…

  • konopelli/wgg

    sorry for the apparent dupe: i fergot: this reply feature moves the comment up to the original post

    Nah, it’s damn hard work being as cynical as i…
    been working on it for 40 years, man and boy.
    i’m just now getting it right.
    The Dems’ biggest mistake was making too many, too grand promises, out of the hubris of ‘victory’ last year when the Pukes threw the elections so they could put the Dumbos in precisely the position in which they now find themselves: a do-nothing Congress now owning the war, bag and baggage.

    Now THAT’S world-class cynicism, dahlin…

  • ybnormal

    The ‘Cooling Saucer’ story
    During a 1787 meeting between Jefferson and Washington, Jefferson expressed the view that the new U.S. republic would be better off with a single legislature, as opposed to the separate House and Senate.

    As Jefferson poured some coffee from his cup into a saucer, Washington asked him why. Jefferson replied that he was cooling off the coffee before drinking it. Washington said, “and so we pour legislation developed in the House into the Senate to allow it to cool.”

    Many have heard this story describing the role of the Senate as one of more thoughtful and considered debate, to hedge against policy by impulse. Originally, filibuster was adopted as a Senate procedure as a way to prevent tyranny by a majority, so that minority views would at least be considered and debated, and also so that determination would play as great a role as would the plain numbers.

    Opposing sides often swap positions on the merits of an up-or-down vote versus filibuster, based on whether they’re for or against the proposition in front of them. It’s worth remembering that while it’s arguable that filibuster shouldn’t be taken to counter-productive extremes, it’s also arguable not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Imagine for example, what would have happened if those in opposition to the ‘Authorization to Use Force in Iraq’ had used more diehard endurance to prevent it from coming to a vote? If not to kill the measure, then at least to have it worded differently and more cautiously. Of course, in that case, it didn’t happen the way it should have, but at least the potential was there. The potential just needed more wisdom and forsight driven determination to make it happen. Likewise with the debate today, the majority needs to rely on determination as much as numbers, especially when the majority is so slim as it is now.

  • Centrocitta

    The Democrats lost again in the Senate last night. I guess we won’t see a declining stock market any time this year. We all know a Bull Market takes precedence for Republicans.

  • Centrocitta

    Liar Bernanke from Federal Reserve says housing market still declining. This keeps the dollar sliding and Europeans investing in the US Stock Market. Bottom line.

  • Shirin

    Reed-Levin Amendment to withdraw combat troops within 120 days of passage, and total redeployment by April 2008.

    Leslie, are you sure about that? My understanding is that the Amendment calls for withdrawal of (most) combat troops to BEGIN within 120 days, and that it does NOT call for total redeployment, but that it allows for leaving tens of thousands of troops in Iraq to “fight terrorism” (in other words, combat troops), to “protect American assets” (that sounds like combat to me), and to “train the Iraqis” (which could also involve combat, I think). If my understanding is correct, that is very far from total redeployment.

    I hope it is my understanding and not yours that is incorrect, and if that is so, I will certainly feel better about this Amendment.

  • Leslie

    Ybnormal,
    Balkinization’s Sandy Levinson had another idea: Make it illegal for a Preznit to veto a bill except in those situations where Congress violates the Constitution, and the President must explain the veto.

    No more line-item vetoes, no more signing statements, no more vetoes based on what the Pretzel wants versus what the majority of Americans want.

  • Leslie

    The Levin-Reed Amendment was posted at Bob Geiger’s blog.

    I’m not going to argue with you about the amendment’s contents, meaning, or ramifications Shirin. You can interpret it how you wish.

    It’s a start.

  • mudkitty

    When it was a republican majority, the GOP went for the nuclear option. What short memories.

  • Shirin

    Leslie, I am sorry I did not make it clear that I was asking for information, not arguing. Sorry if it was not clear.

  • Shirin

    PS Thanks for the link. I will look at the Amendment.

  • Shirin

    Unfortunately, it looks like my understanding of the Amendment was accurate. I wish I had been wrong.

    (a) Deadline for Commencement of Reduction.–The Secretary of Defense shall commence the reduction of the number of United States forces in Iraq not later than 120 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.

    - This clearly refers to the commencement, not completion of the reduction within 120 days.

    - It does not specify or imply that it is combat troops that are to be reduced.

    - It does not specify the size of the reduction.

    (c) Limited Presence After Reduction and Transition.–After the conclusion of the reduction and transition of United States forces to a limited presence as required by this section, the Secretary of Defense may deploy or maintain members of the Armed Forces in Iraq only for the following missions:

    Limited presence of an unspecified number of troops is, unfortunately, not a full withdrawal. :(

    And this puts the power to decide how many troops to “deploy or maintain” right back into the hands of the Administration. There is also nothing here to prevent the Administration from having another lovely “surge” as long as they manage to technically stay with the prescribed “missions”.

    (1) Protecting United States and Coalition personnel and infrastructure.”

    That means protecting the Regional Imperial Command and Control Center – aka “mega embassy” in Baghdad. It also means the permanent military bases that were one of the main goals of the invasion from the beginning. In other words, it means continuing the agenda of establishing a permanent, and controlling presence in Iraq.

    Protecting United States personnel and infrastructure could also include something that looks, walks, and quacks an awfully lot like combat.

    2) Training, equipping, and providing logistic support to the Iraqi Security Forces.

    Logistic support certainly does not close the door to a combat role.

    3) Engaging in targeted counterterrorism operations against al Qaeda, al Qaeda affiliated groups, and other international terrorist organizations.

    What is that, if not combat? Same old “house to house”, same old checkpoints, same old patrols, same old aerial attacks, just with an unspecified reduced number of forces. And same old mass detentions, same old “enhanced interrogation techniques”, aka torture.

    And same old pissed off Iraqis struggling to expel the occupier, aka “insurgents”.

    (d) Completion of Transition.–The Secretary of Defense shall complete the transition of United States forces to a limited presence and missions as described in subsection (c) by April 30, 2008.

    This is obviously not a complete withdrawal. It is, in fact, an unspecified reduction. Technically, it could be no more than a minuscule, symbolic reduction.

    Leslie, I really was hoping that my understanding was wrong. Unfortunately, it was not. This Amendment may have some significance for domestic politics, but it does very little for the troops, and even less for Iraq and Iraqis.

    I am disappointed. I was hoping you had it right. :(

  • ybnormal

    Well, the 60 votes needed for cloture didn’t happen. 52-47. BUMMER. I’m sure we all voted for the right people. So, what’s the problem? It must be that voting is not enough by itself.

    There’s a reason voting isn’t enough. It just doesn’t add up to 100% Really! Want proof?
    It’s simple arithmetic.

    Just assign a number to each letter of the alphabet starting with a=1, b=2 etc. and ending with z=26 By this simple formula, V-O-T-I-N-G only adds up to a pathetic also-ran of only 87%. As Wilson Pickett said, “99 and a half, just won’t do”. 87 of course, isn’t even that good.

    T-A-L-K-I-N-G is even less, at a C-minus grade of only 74%. While this may get you through Yale, and on to be the president, the missing 26% will surely lead to disaster. Do I need to provide examples? My apologies to anyone named Shirley.

    Maybe it’s time to take action. How about killing? Wrong! K-I-L-L-I-N-G, still at 74% is no improvement at all over talking. A more positive form of action is hard work. Unfortunately, H-A-R-D-W-O-R-K all by itself is still just a little short at 98%.

    Something’s missing.

    The answer, of course, is KICKING ASS !!!
    K-I-C-K-I-N-G-A-S-S not only gets you there, it puts you above and over the top with a comfortable margin at 103% !!!

    So the solution is obvious; contact your senators and representatives often, and let them know in no uncertain terms that they need to be KICKING ASS !!!

  • Bill Keyes

    I think the Repugs will be showing us their middle fingers.

  • Leslie

    WTF do you want Shirin? :)

    If we pull out all the troops, then there won’t be any post-surge strategy. The Dems and Bushies need something to bargain with. [sarcasm mine]

  • PrchrLady

    I’m jumping over to this thread for a minute, just to comment on the comments… I can’t keep anything straight anymore with comments being moved around on the trhreead… I will not post only on one thread until I can follow the conversation, which is what we usually have done on NO Quarter… I see wet hornet is having same problem as noted above. One of the reasons that I don’t post at KOS or some of the other big sites, is because I find it difficult to folllow any sense of logic when things are out of order…. doesn’t build a complete picture, so to speak… so I will try again, but I think it is better the old way as far as getting rid of reply to this comment feature… don’t know, I’m just in a bad mood today… sorrry, Marlene

  • Shirin

    WTF do you want Shirin?

    Well – sigh! – I was sort of hoping for something that would forestall the need to use the embassy roof as an escape point! You know, like getting the hell completely out before the POI’s kick you out. Guess THAT was a pipe dream. :(

  • Shirin

    I agree with PrchrLady about the reply feature. It isn’t really very user friendly. It forces you to start at the top of the comment section every time you check the page in order to be sure not to miss any comments. Maybe it would be better to eliminate it.

  • Leslie

    Ohhhh that…yeah. But we’re going to have a tough time getting anyone to do that. The whole point of the war was to occupy Iraq forever as a ME pivot point. The Dems aren’t going to give up the Embassy any more than the GOP will. So let’s start by withdrawing combat troops first, assuming we can get that past the Bushies. I’d be really happy if we could make that happen soon and save some lives. Then we work on total withdrawal and saving more lives.

    You know, I don’t buy the Bushie hype that Iraq will go to hell in a handbasket if we pull out. Because our presence is fueling the violence. But, what if the slaughter does get worse without the US there? I’m not arguing for staying. But the US created this mess. Reparations may not be enough if the slaughter continues.

  • mudkitty

    I prefer haloscan.

  • Jerome

    I never vote Pub or Dem. Two sides of the same coin. I vote Libertarian or not at all. To vote Pub or Dem’s is to be part of the problem.

  • Thinker

    Some really fine comments have come out of this thread. Thank you for devoting your time to my reading pleasure.

    It is clear that everyone seems to be of one ‘relative’ mind on where things are at. The debate is on why things have happened and where things will go.

    Jerome’s criticism of the two party system is well placed. Unfortunately limited liberty is lack of liberty so the Libertarian Party hasn’t found the answer, but I guess its baby steps!

    Shirin again has kindly highlighted that the Democrats are no closer to pulling out of Iraq than the Republicans, this is because both are in place to “secure Americas interests” and pulling out of Iraq would desimate America’s interests.

    Wethornet talked of an escalation to martial law. I personally believe that Dems were in on every move the Reps have made. Hitler went through due process to elect himself dictator. I think there are enough Bush clones to guaratee everlasting synergy, so dictatorship is not necessary in America. Oprah Winfrey has been spending a lot of time demonstrating all men are rapists and women are vulnerable (and brave at the same time) and continually bashed. Bill Clinton was shaping up to engage moral blitzkreig until he was unfortunately caught with his pants down in the Whitehouse. Hillary (one of questionable moral character) will continue the campaign with a vengeance.

    America is about to be at war with herself if she is not careful.

  • Shirin

    our presence is fueling the violence.

    No question about it. You started it, and you have managed to provoke and exacerbate the violence every step of the way. (By “you”, of course I mean the collective you.)

    …what if the slaughter does get worse without the US there?

    It will surprise nearly everyone in the U.S. to learn that the single greatest cause of Iraqi deaths are the foreign fighters of the United States military. That is what the authors of both of the Johns Hopkins/Al Mustansiriya mortality studies (aka “Lancet study”) found. In the second study they found that around one third of the 655,000 excess Iraqi deaths were caused directly by the United States military. And that was a conservative figure since they did not include a death in that count if there was any doubt at all on the part of the reporting family as to the cause (for example, if the death took place during a firefight between the U.S. and resistance fighters, they were sometimes not certain whether it was the U.S. or the resistance that actually killed the person, and in that case it would not be put in the category of caused directly by the U.S.).

    A large proportion of Iraqi deaths are caused during firefights or battles by those who are fighting against the U.S. These deaths, while not directly caused by the U.S. ARE directly attributable to the U.S. presence, and would not happen if the U.S. were not there. (This is called “collateral damage” when the U.S. is the killer. When the resistance is the killer, it is called terrorism and/or murder.)

    Another major cause of Iraqi death that can be attributed directly to the U.S. presence is strikes by the resistance in which the target is the occupation (either occupation forces, or proxies, agents, and collaborators) in which Iraqis are killed. Ditto as to my earlier collateral damage vs terrorism/murder remark.

    Deaths directly attributable to the U.S. presence almost certainly constitute significantly more than 50% of all deaths.

    The U.S. military is directly responsible for the overwhelming majority of the destruction. This is not surprising, of course, considering their capacity for destructive force, not to mention their willingness to use it on just about any pretext (including, by the way, collective punishment for all kinds of things, including not giving them information they are just sure you have about “insurgents”).

    According to the study released last month by Global Policy Forum, the United States military has flattened or rendered uninhabitable major portions of twelve Iraqi cities, Falluja, a city about the size of Cincinnati being the best known. That also makes the U.S. military directly responsible for at least one million Iraqis who are permanently displaced because they have no more homes to go back to.

    Therefore, in order to justify the notion that the violence will increase without the U.S there, you have to assume that if the U.S. leaves those who are left there would be capable of more violence than the U.S. military and the legitimate resistance – that is, those who are directly targeting the occupation – combined.

    As you think about this bear in mind that the people who are expected to commit more violence than that caused directly by the U.S. military and by those who are resisting the occupation – that is, more than 50% of the current violence – do not have even a tiny fraction of the death-and-destruction-dealing equipment, technology, and firepower that the U.S. military possesses, and has used. For starters, they do not have tanks, they do not have the kinds of weapons that are typically found on tanks, they do not have humvees and apc’s with mounted large-caliber automatic weapons, they do not have missiles, they do not have attack helicopters, they do not have bombers, they do not have any kind of aerial firepower at all. Therefore, the capability simply is not there to replace the amount and magnitude of violence the U.S. is directly responsible for. Add to that the violence not directly caused by the U.S., but directly attributable to U.S. presence, and you can see how unlikely this doomsday scenario is, just from a practical point of view.

    In addition, the belief that the violence would increase if the U.S. were not there requires the clearly very questionable assumption that the U.S. is doing anything to quell the violence. The evidence points quite clearly in the opposite direction. In fact, polls have consistently shown that Iraqis understand very well that the U.S. does far more to cause violence and death than it does to prevent it., and that the overwhelming majority believe that the violence would lessen, not increase, if the U.S. leaves.

    Add to that the fact that it really is in the best interest of the overwhelming majority of Iraqis to go back to what they have done successfully for millennia – living together with at least a reasonable degree of normalcy. The fact that, in this atmosphere of ethnic (or rather sectarian) cleansing, Sunni and Shi`a families facing ethnic cleansing have managed to devise a system whereby they can exchange homes (and furniture, and all the accoutrements of a household) temporarily in order to live, for the time being, in the “right” neighbourhood, speaks volumes about the true nature of Iraqi society as well as its future if left to its own devices.

    Certainly, Iraq would not suddenly turn into Shangri-la, or become the Switzerland of the Middle East as soon as the Americans left. However, there is absolutely no chance of any improvement as long as the U.S. is there. In fact, as the past four plus years have shown clearly, as long as the U.S. is there, the violence will continue to escalate, and the overall situation will continue to deteriorate.

    Give Iraq a chance. Get out now, and get out completely. Iraqis will invite you back as their guests once you learn how to behave.

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