It’s too easy to shoot holes in all this ‘stable democracy/yellowcake’ bullshit Bush threw out in 2002. James Baker knew better than to take out Saddam in the Gulf War. But Baker said the U.S. was ‘feared more’ as a result of Iraq. Baker says you want to be ‘respected by your allies and feared by your adversaries.’ I think that’s what Cheney was after. Iraq was about re-establishing fear of American military power, in response to Al Qaeda’s ’4th generation’ strategy to neutralize our military advantage. Would we accept a fundamental change in the global balance of power post-9/11? The only sense I make of Cheney is that he would not accept a change in balance of power, even at the cost of destabilizing Iraq. Does that make him crazy?

As progressives we don’t talk in terms of power and fear, and if we do, we talk in moral terms. But Bush I didn’t leave Saddam in power for morality. There’s no moral case for leaving a dictator in power. That choice was based on realpolitik. Balance of power, fear, naked nationalism — ugly stuff, but the world is an ugly place. All I know is that 50-100 years after the U.S. renounced slavery — the worst crime in our history — Europe was still cranking out colonial crackpots (Churchill, Hitler, Stalin) bent on world conquest like some evil super villain out of James Bond. Communism, facism, colonialism, apartheid. Europe’s history is one of virtually non-stop war for a thousand years. We ended the Cold War without blowing up the planet. Yes, I think our pock-marked record is a lot better than Europe’s.

What’s better for the world, that we remain the dominant power or that something else replace us? What’s better for Americans, to stay dominant or to accept an inevitable slide into a second-rate power? What price should we pay to stay on top?

I’m also curious about the ‘surge’ as a generic anti-terror strategy, or just specific to Iraq. Where do we stand now? Can Al Qaeda still claim they can fight American combat troops to a stalemate?

Don’t read anything I say as support for the Iraq War. I think the war was a big mistake. But I still have these questions.

America was attacked- badly. We did not like it. Bush did what A LOT of people wanted him to do- get revenge. It was a highly emotionally charged event. He did the right thing with Afghanistan. When it came to Iraq, it was all about Saddam. And let’s face it Saddam was evil. He was evil towards his countryman and other nations. He invaded Kuwait; he did violate UN laws and committed mass genocide. I still remember sitting with my parents in the basement watching the news and being very, very afraid of that man. We had to deal with him not once, but twice, under G. H. W. Bush and Clinton. So given his supreme dislike of the US and his past indiscretions I cannot blame neither Bush nor anyone in that Congress for how they voted. They were just going on what they knew from the past and the grim reality at the time. And that reality was that we were fighting against extremists with no official allegiance who absolutely hated us (which continues until this day), and therefore could attain help through many other sovereign nations who dislike the US. Strategically it made sense to dispose of Saddam and reinstitute a more friendly government. Morally- no. Emotionally, I still can’t square that one, but logically, like I said, it made sense. And Bush was the guy who, running on the emotions of an entire nation, decided that he would actively protect American interests abroad and never let another 9/11 happen on our soil again. I don’t like the guy, but he did do that job.

In the end every country will do what it has to, to protect itself. And I would love to sit down and have tea with our enemies- if they actually meant to sit down with us. I would love to respect their sovereignty- if they respected ours. But our enemies are people who fly no flag and whose only loyalty is to their ideology. Our enemies hate America, and will continue even if you give them all the gold in the world. It is the ultimate responsibility of the President to protect our nation from foreign and domestic terrors. Clinton did what he had to. Both Bushes did what they had to and Obama will do what he has to. And all I can guarantee is that many people will always remain opposed and others will be in favor of whatever decision is made.

PETITION FOR PUBLIC RELEASE OF
BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE

To: Electoral College, Congress of the United States, Federal Elections Commission, U.S. Supreme Court, President of the United States, other controlling legal authorities

Whereas, by requirement of the United States Constitution, Article 2, Section 1, no one can be sworn into office as president of the United States without being a natural born citizen;

Whereas, there is sufficient controversy within the citizenry of the United States as to whether presidential election winner Barack Obama was actually born in Hawaii as he claims;

Whereas, Barack Obama has refused repeated calls to release publicly his entire Hawaiian birth certificate, which would include the actual hospital that performed the delivery;

Whereas, lawsuits filed in several states seeking only proof of the basic minimal standard of eligibility have been rebuffed;

Whereas, Hawaii at the time of Obama’s birth allowed births that took place in foreign countries to be registered in Hawaii;

Whereas, concerns that our government is not taking this constitutional question seriously will result in diminished confidence in our system of free and fair elections;

SIGN HERE:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81550

The above article appears on WorldNetDaily.

I’ve been totally against the war, but do agree that we just can’t leave.

That’s kinda like me. I think it was a boneheaded mistake to go in there but we do have to make the best of it. Its worthy to keep reminding people of why we are in there to begin with. Just maybe it will prevent a future leader from making a boneheaded mistake of their own? Bush has in vain tried to rewrite history by the relative success of the surge. But just as we won’t forget how Opampers was “elected” we won’t let Bush whitewash his deeds into oblivion either.

The British where in Iraq (Mesopotamia) for 10 years. That occupation didn’t stop Saddam Hussein from eventually taking over. The Sunni’s are patient. Knowing that they can’t defeat our army they will wait are departure, no matter what time line. Iraq is a cesspool of corruption funded generously (and stupidly) through our donations (that’s [u]our[/u] money people). When we’re gone, we’re gone. There is no going back in a remake grudge match against some crack-pot dictator.

I’ve been totally against the war, but do agree that we just can’t leave. I don’t think we should have left them high and dry after the first Gulf War (even though I disagreed with that war too). Not only for the reasons you stated OIAF, but also because shock & awe did a LOT of damage that I feel we should rebuild (like schools, etc..) Not everyone in Iraq is bad and should be punished, especially the kids!!

Ironically, and the universe will get the last laugh, speaking of rats, those who cage us will ultimately suffer the same fate as the rest of us. Alas, the shortsightedness and avarice of unbridled power. And alas, the lack of focus on dealing with the underlying causes of our ills by the masses. The leaders and the led are all to blame. Excuse the rather scathing indictment of humanity, but I call it as I see it.

We’re trapped like rats! [smack!] Speak for yourself! –The Three Stooges

My goal is to contribute to tackling the huge problem with our democracy and judicial system NOT get into debates over non issues such as this one!!!!!!!!

But what is most intimidating, and frankly astounding, is that the mainstream media is more or less now under the control of a small handful of corporations, so it is also correct to include media in that complex: miliatary/industrial/energy/media… and behind them all, intercontinental banking interests.

It doesn’t take a tinfoil hat to perceive how these worldwide conglomerates have taken advantage of deregulation and modern instant communications to form a veritable one-world industry unto themselves.

I don’t believe anyone here is implying that there is one boardroom with five chairs, one for each of these industries, and that they want to homogenize the cultures of the world. I’m certainly not implying that. But it is easy to see how they are a club of sorts, and they will band together to determine the major issues of our economy.

War is good for business, as they say. And if they start rolling out peace dividends like pollution-free vehicles, reuseable energy, and green technologies, then all the fossil fuels will become worthless, and that would cause economic collapse for large sectors of the world’s businesses. As desirable as that sounds to consumers, these industrial giants have no intention of cutting their own throats.

We the people will have very little say in these matters, unfortunately. The Democratic Party should be at the forefront of pushing these advances in clean energy, but they are so entrenched in coal and oil, it won’t happen in our lifetimes. At best, maybe a fourth of it may occur in the next generation or two. That’s my guess.

But then, there are many who think the world will end in 2012, and that’s fine by me, as long as we all go together!

I am referring to how Opampers would let Hillary do all the work in the debates on certain topics and basically “yeah what Hillary said” as his retort.

Oh and thanks.

Yes, it’s happened in the past a LOT (and I’m one to blame too), but they have been asking us recently to put these in the open threads. I do think someone even asked us to ask posters to put them in the open threads if we see it happening.