A Modest Proposal

The hard right will never go for it. Hannity, Rush, et al, would call you Socialist, Marxist, and so on even though they’re sitting on $100 million dollar contracts.

It’d be nice though. I know what I’d buy with 26K.

Or people could also take the money and send it to that one’s transition contribution page; yes president elect is still asking for donations; I imagine he believes American’s have bottomless wallets and purses, and this must be why he thinks he has the answer to our economic problems; hell he is still asking us for handouts as well. Disgraceful

donate.obamabidentransitionproject.org/page/contribute/november20_1

Help our transition team
In just a few weeks, the Obama administration will bring change to Washington. But there is little time to assess the state of the federal agencies, prepare our agenda, and staff key positions in the new administration.
Your support right now will be crucial to helping us accomplish these goals.
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My Congresswoman is a Democrat. I will tell her I am against any and all additional bailouts, period. I am not against them for any particular reasoning other than these bailout are charges against those who are small children and those yet unborn. That is simply no longer fair at this stage. We cannot encumber our children and the generation to be born in the next years with this kind of debt.

So what about giving all this tax payer money to the private corporations? I would rather stimulate the economy by giving it to the average people than giving to wall street who ran their company to the ground.

You’re correct. That’s socialism, too. My proposal is flat tax and pay as you go.

The capitalists will take the money and call it a “bailout,” yet Larry’s “proposal” to give grants to the American people is “Marxism.” I understand Larry is making more of a philosophical point than anything else here. Obviously the government will favor the capitalists with this corporate welfare money grab. Its easy to sell a “bailout” when you have doom and gloom propaganda spewing from the media. I guess this is trickle oblivion economics coming from the last gasps of the current congress and executive to be carried forward by the illegitimate president about to be sworn in. Say bye bye to the money, its going into the abyss.

The only problem with a huge check in the amount of 26k is that the inflation will make it worthless. If people are smart enough to pay off their debt and start over, it would be a good idea.

That One truly knows no shame. Here we are in a fiscal crisis and all he can do is beg for money for his transition. What an arrogant a__h_le.

No ideas of your own? Are you an intellectual moron like Dr. Savage said? Blinded by ideology to the point that you let it outweigh your common sense?

Sounds like a plan to me. $100,000? I could start a small business and NOT run it into the ground.

Who are you addressing?

Not you I don’t think.

Divide this sum by the total population of the United States (i.e., 300 million).

This means every man, woman, and child would get approximately $26,000. Let’s put a cap on it. Limit the total grant per family to $104,000. Also, anyone who made more than $1 million dollars in 2007 does not get the grant.

I’m game!

Why didn’t BO put YOU in his cabinet? Somebody needs to tell him to get off his rocker and bring you on board NOW.

Citibank needs or “wants” a bailout? Larry, I agree with your math regarding the 7.7 trillion. The American Citizen’s raised this cash through taxation and investment in the US. Let us decide who deserves the cash. I am still trying to figure out why Citibank needs a bailout. I, alone, help them with their finances 3 times a month and they still try and “throw” cash at me by offering me loans and credit cards. Guess that they don’t like Americans like me who bail them out in full each month. I will take the $26,000, put it in a tax sheltered annuity, and borrow cash from myself and pay it back to myself and get rid of all assistance from anything that has to do with Citibank.

I just bet you could, too, Strawberry. I remember you have had several coffee pots go on the fritz. Maybe you could make a better one and the world would beat a path to your door. I know I would.

Evening, Galt.

What? No lumberjacks or 12 philosophers named Bruce?

Actually, how about a store that only sells products that work and last more than year…we’re talking a REAL small business here.

I was curious as to who, as I was hoping my post wasn’t four paws(faux pas)thought it relevant,, bail out the big guys, beg for money from those being taken to the cleaners. I think they call it a “reverse robin hood”. oHH I know it’s the old “Sheriff of Nottingham move…I get it.

You Katmoon. Larry’s posed an intriguing philosophical economic question and the best you can come up with is: Obama’s asking for donations. We’re trying to come up with real solutions here.

So bob, what to do with me then?

Well the $104k limit for a family would be just fine with me. I’d pay off our place, buy a new minivan, and pay off all our outstanding debts. That would still leave enough to get each of my kids at least a $10k bond to start saving towards college.

Does the bailout of Citibank, say, usurp the ownership of foreign investors?

Bob, as I responded below, so what to do with me then? You believe I have made a non relevant comment,

the best you can come up with is

sorry, can you provide me with whatever standard you don’t believe I am reaching?

There’s no reason for the insults to start even if you don’t like someone’s comments.

Sounds like a plan to me. Enough of the bailouts to greedy corporations who cooked their books and mismanaged in the first place.

You did nothing to warrant a personal insult.

Bob, Katmoon is making a good point. This country is facing a huge economic crisis and the moron that got himself elected is asking for money from the very people being asked to foot the bill for the screwups that caused the problem. Not to mention those screwups funded the moron’s campaign. It’s like a bad joke.

Nothing. While the rest of us talk about solutions to combat Obama’s economic plan and succeed in spite of his efforts to destroy America, you’ll still be talking about him asking for donations and wringing your hands.

Exactly.

They(you) don’t have to give it to him. He’s asking. You can say no. Now when Obama starts raising taxes in a few months against our will, then we’ll have a legitimate beef. Save your energy for the real fight.

It certainly is. His begging for money is not exactly the example a leader should set when citizens are having difficulty making ends meet.

Larry you are a genius!!!!

That would get all Americans up and running plus help companies get back on their feet!!!

Why the hostility? Just plain uncalled for. I felt it relevant, and you don’t; now let’s have civil discourse, shall we.

Evening Ferd! Sure, why not. Or maybe I better watch what I say, I might get my noggin bitten off by the thread ogre!

It’s not an insult. Don’t you people listen to Dr. Savage. He and a guest last night were talking about intellectual morons like Noam Chomsky. Intellectual morons are folks who are really smart but let ideology get in the way of common sense answers. Now explain to me how talking about Obama asking for donations which you don’t have to give, answers Larry’s question?

Oh don’t worry he’ll get his grubby little paws on our wallets soon enough, but this just shows what little respect he has for us. Asking for handouts from people about to be thrown over a barrel and buggered…the least he could do is provide some Astroglide.

I might get my noggin bitten off by the thread ogre!

I do know what you mean by that! The post police, who only recently came on board, are now making a futile effort at dictating the content our discussions as if any of us regulars give a tinker’s cuss about what they think.

It sure came across as an insult and I am sure I am not the only person who took it that way. And now you insult Noam Chomsky, or you quote people it appears you agree with that he is a moron. I could call Savage a “moron” because I disagree with him but I won’t. You don’t have to listen to me, but if it was me I would say to Katmoon, “I am sorry if you felt insulted, I was trying to make a point and it came out awkwardly.” People we disagree with are not morons. If that was true, you are a moron as well.

Larry,

I couldn’t agree more. How are you?

your missing the point, get it?? Financial crisis, Obama begging for money…it’s not rocket science. You don’t get to delegate how we exert our energy either.

I’m sure that would be a successful enterprise. Where I live there are very few stores like that around and they’re 50 miles way.

boob thinks he’s the thread boss and gets to tell people how to exert their energy and what should be important to them…..

corporate welfare, the left used to call it….

My question is why you all treat Larry’s articles with such disrepect? I don’t know why Larry bothers to write. He asks a good question to get you all thinking and 5 mintutes into it someone resorts to, Obama’s doing this or Obama’s doing that. I want to talk about the issue, not what some con man is doing.

But if you want to talk about Obama, instead of the economy, that’s cool. Hey I know, let’s talk about Obama’s dog. I say he gets a chihuahua since he’s going to sell America to Mexico anyway.

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Larry made a great suggestion, tongue and cheek; apparently I missed the question, as there wasn’t one. People are answering what they would do with the money, and of course I have no doubt with the quick wits here, put together, an actual solution could be reached. Didn’t say you were insulting. From my point of view it is vile to ask for anymore donations from a campaign that achieved obscene amounts to purchase the office of president. To me it is obscene that somehow we still do not have any voice as to how to solve this crisis, as I truly do not believe there is one ear turned in the direction of the people in order to solve the collective economic disfunction of our country. I have no solutions, but I do have the ability to continue on from where I am, trying, and pinching and squeezing our pennies. Even if we actually received this opportunity to take a payout to payoff, how many people would be willing to truly do this? Perhaps the problem is not only money and the lack thereof, but the reasons why there isn’t any to spare, from Mr & Mrs. Main street all the way up to the Department of Treasury. If we are able to keep our economy on life support, we better be able to provide the equipment to do so as well as an honest commitment. Therein lies the problem, what is the commitment, of our economy, our nation our people.

If we had 7.7 trillion, which we don’t, and if we were going to devote it to bailouts, which we shouldn’t, then I would much rather see it go to the blue-collar rust belt (auto industry & steel industry) than to the white-collar Wall Street money-changers. Just my personal bias.

Ferd, I do think we should try to be more civil around here. Maybe we could learn something from each other, even those we disagree with? Personally, I am getting tired of the barbs flying back and forth.

Obama should get a Saluki.

You have no need to criticize, nor minimize, and actually our threads go on for hours, on the same subject, very circular, and not relegated to a square peg. You realize you have spent more time bitching about my comment, than addressing the article yourself.

No, wait, Rat Terrier.

I know. But I don’t believe regulars to this blog routinely start such nonsense. I only go after the obvious trolls but would much prefer just to discuss issues.

Shi-tzu or maybe an Akita Inu(which is redundant by the way).

I agree Galt, trying to stay decent, and also get tired of it. Like the story about the water throwing lady yesterday, how long and how far do you let it go?

My question is why you all treat Larry’s articles with such disrepect?

I don’t see that happening at all. The majority of folks on this blog are highly respectful of Larry and his articles. And there is no “you all.” The responses here are from individuals.

That is so on target. If any of us asked for relief from any of these companies, especially Citibank, they’d turn us over to collection agencies within a New York nanosecond. I especially don’t want Citibank to ever see a dime of money. I’ve let my Congressman know.

You should read more on flat tax, Bob. 10% to a short order cook is a bigger hit than 10% to a millionaire/bilionare CFO. That is why we have progressive tax.

As far as pay as you go- I like that idea. However, I would up sales and use taxes and lower income tax.

By the time I see one earned or invested dollar (which has already been taxed), everyone has their hands out: sales, use, snack, car VLF, gas, sin, property, utility, cable, telephone, income, capital gains, interest, dividends, etc.

Poodle.

Does anyone feel like they are seeing the door slam shut on whatever idealistic promises the Obamorons thought they were going to get? A Brave New World? A brave New World Order is more like it. Skull and Bones. The Council on Foreign Relations. Citigroup. Morgan and Stanley. J.P. Morgan. William Donaldson (former head of the SEC, Skull and Bones, Yale class, 1953.) Its all been planned as he was supposed to win. Ashton Goolsley, Skull and Bones, Yale, 1991. According to NPR, he is the “architect” of Obama’s economic plan. OMG, Now shock, crisis. “I told you so…” At least we, the non-Koolaid drinkers, were wise enough to not buy the story-line. Manchurian candidate anyone?

Someone had made a point on the other thread, I believe “Mortgaging America”, regarding how Citigroup has been actively hiking their interest rates up over the past few months, perhaps part of the solution could be to suspend all interest on citigroup if they get the loan, to 5%, fixed, period for a specific period of time.

I have been a regular here for awhile and am familiar with most who post here regularly. Your moniker is new as is your attitude. We aren’t answerable to you. If Larry or Susan has a problem with us, hey let us know. This is not your blog and you are being presumptuous with your demands.

Frankly, I just settle for how my $26K is spent. Giving free money to F/F, Citi, AIG is not on my list of must-dos. (Does anyone remember how the bail-out of Bear Sterns was going to save us?)

Next up: the auto industry and state governments.

Well, Citigroup bought my mortgage. Wonder if they’ll throw me a lifeline if things get tough.

Hmmmm….I like the title Larry…Modest proposal indeed…

I say the 60% who pay income tax get the bailout money, Seniors too. Those who didn’t pay income tax, theirs can go into a trust and they can have it when they secure employment for at least one year, are no longer getting any kind of public assistance and have cleaned up their credit. There is no sense giving that much money to irresponsible people unless you give them some tools to improve their lives so they don’t fall back into the same way of life.

The corporations can cut back on their high flying expenses and they will stay afloat just fine.

I heard Rush make a similar statement a few days ago.

I have a huge student loan debt with Citibank. Although I always make my payments, I am going to ask them for a bailout. I will ask nicely.

all these bailouts are like putting a bandaid on a ruptured artery. Pointless and ineffective. Uless and until they decide to help the home owners refinance at rates they can afford the forclosures will continue and even escalate.

helping the home owners stay in their homes and pay their mortgages is the only way to fix this for anybody including the banks who will only be begging again in 6 months time if we dont.

the banks are proffessionals who should have known better than to make all those risky loans and they need to suck it up and take small losses now r they will lose it all when the home owners walk away from homes they cannot pay for.

Hillary had it right 2 years ago. it would help the home owners and the banks and then the entire economy. instead they are worried about their buddies losing all those profits that they have been making for decades off of the sweat of us “common folk”.

Business has rules meaning you need to manage them properly and consider risks carefully not jump in with both feet out of greed and if you do and you fail well that’s how it works.

Nobody is going to bail out my business or yours because we made bad decisions so why do the big boys get special treatment? because they have friends in high places.

Just finished a post about this very thing and how much it pisses me off.

also Katmoon had a very valid point IMO.

CQ

Modest proposal indeed…

If things go from bad to worse, someone may once again suggest the idea of selling children from poor families for public consumption.

auto industry should not get squat. they overpay their employees and have too many perks. know what a job bank is? If a GM employee loses their job their name goes in this. If a job becomes available they have a chance to take it. But…they don’t have to. They get paid the entire time in the job bank and continue to get paid indefinitely even if they dont’ take the job which they don’t have to. No sympathies from me. flying around on corporate jets. perhaps if they cut out all the perks, they could stay afloat.

are you kidding? they don’t care about you, me or anyone just profits.
CQ

You’re right. One thing not being discussed is that with these enormous sums of money for bailouts we are right now just printing money. At some point we, taxpayers, are going to have to pay for this. And then will come across the board tax increases which will then make this economic mess worse.

Someone in the Obama administration should get an education on The New Deal and what it really did and did not do – and not some fantastic mythical tale.

bob, you are not the thread boss. cripes, get over it already. Someone made a valid point that Obama is asking for donations when we have an economic crisis.

Ask them about my mortgage, while you’re at it.

I understand why bob, may have thought I was off topic, but I am no fan of Dr. Savage, and admit will not have a pretense to care about what he has to say(Dr. Savage). I also agree with Galt above, I am tired of the snipe, and recalled last nights article about the water throwing woman…it’s a blog and I don’t want to get or give angry, but when and what is enough when you are expressing your point of view. Regardless, I respect this blog, Larry, Susan, RRA, AG in Italy, Pat, all the great writers. Maybe it will just take time to get comfortable with everyone wanting to have a good conversation, knowing they can here; and lets face it, no matter what, we are having an election hangover, and an administration hangover, added with a hair trigger economy and a war on two fronts. We are jumpy.

Bob is:

a. 9 years old
b. drunk
c. all of the above

The Politicians have made it pretty Clear they do not care about Helping the People ..It seems This is all about Helping Corporations and financial Institutions on Wall Street that seem to Have Close ties to People in Congress and in the Bush Administration..

Government and Corporate America is putting the American People so Far in Debt…and Taking away or ruining what ever Savings or Equity the Middle class has..that the end result will be that there is No More Democracy or Freedom.because we will no Longer own or Control Our Government…

Our Government and reorganized and Consolidtated Corporate America we OWN All of Us…and thier Associates will Own the Europeans too…

Now..we are they…and They are We..

New.??.No.. ” One World Order… ”

The REALITY is becoming easier by the Day… just Put everyone in debt..Control the commoditys..and it all comes down to “SUPPLY” and demand…

And Who can Control BOTH…

and lets face it, no matter what, we are having an election hangover, and an administration hangover, added with a hair trigger economy and a war on two fronts. We are jumpy.

Amen you said a mouthfull! Election hangover is a great description of how I feel these last 3 weeks.

my hope is that it won’t stretch into something far worse and incuarable.

CQ

It’s just about time to deck the halls, and don our gay apparel. We all have been through a lot, and need some holiday cheer.

I agree.

CQ

CQ, it’s bad for folks, and when you start messing with people’s money and ability to hold a job or try to pay for an education, god only knows what will follow. Trust is the commodity we seem to be in the shortest supply of and I don’t think people have the blind faith in the old or new guard to support this Citi bailout. If Citi goes in the toilet, what happens? A lot of unemployment, and stock loss, and as far as mortgages and the rest of the holdings, I have no idea. Now if the middle class continues being pressed between a brick and a bed of needles, and sees no light at the end of that torture, something will have to give. How do we trust again? How to we know what is truly being done in the best interests of the people. Our market could use a big injection of trust, if only.

all these bailouts are like putting a bandaid on a ruptured artery.

I believe you are generally right. Every economic downturn has a core problem. The core problem here as you said was defaulted mortgages which were the result of the practice of short rate mortgages. We allowed them and even encouraged them. A lot of them were used to secure short term real estate speculation deals which collapsed suddenly when this entire credit mess imploded.

What should have been done was to immediately secure the defaulted mortgages and bring immediate confidence back into the credit market. That was not done.

The credit situation backed up and has affected all retail sectors including car sales.

Other than the initial problem there should be no other bailouts. Period.

If a company is being grossly mismanaged then the system we have forces them out of business or a second chance through bankruptcy restructuring. But to feed them to stay in business only protracts the inevitable and corrupts the system.

The one lesson from The Great Depression is that the more government interference and involvement, the less likely the economy will have a chance to recover. If you get a common cold there is nothing you can do but wait till it has a chance to run its course to get better. When you take too much medication it can actually have the effect of prolonging the sickness and making it worse. Our economy is the same way.

No bailouts, I agree. I will do my patriotic duty for the economy with my $26,000. It’s way past time that regular people got a break.

Did One Woman in Virginia Just Bring Down The Somali Pirates?

Girl Power.

http://patriotroom.com/did-one-woman-in-virginia-just-bring-down-the-somali-pirates/

Larry I understand where you are coming from! Your point shows the criminal behavior of the corporate, government officials….Mortgage foreclosures is around two trillion, refinance these homes, give that money to the working people. End of problem…What is the governmnet and Wall Street hiding. This is outright fraud and theft of the American people! Barry Soetoro’s econmic team mentored by Jerry Rubin, same person who was corporate head of Citibank. His people, Mr. Soetoro’s nominee for Treasuary position are his buddies. I am sick of how the public is being ripped off! We, the American people need to stand up, phone, email, protest the criminal behavior of our political system. We have all be held…this is turning into a ripe situation where a perfect storm will come about. Can anyone say, Marshall Law? It is a possibility!

had!

I’d just like to say how humorous I find all these comments about what a great idea this is, and what everyone would do with their personal bailout money, when I was flamed on this site for over an hour a couple of days ago by a lot of regulars (some of them on this very thread) for suggesting that raising wages is one of the only things that will fix the economy long-term. Not only was that a “socialistic” idea, but apparently I was a big poopy-head know-nothing for pointing out that when half of the people in the country don’t have any money, the economy stops working.

I guess around here it’s not the idea that matters, but the person who suggests it.

YES! THANK YOU. But they WON’T, will they?

Because they don’t give a crap about the people, they care about their special interests and friends.

And why are they bailing out Citibank again, with A LOT MORE? Because our Saudi friends, the Prince, invested in Citibank and he doesn’t want to lose his money, along with their other friends.

And yes, auh, Rubinomics. One of the bad pieces out of the Clinton Admin and leave it to O-shit! to hire his ass. But, maybe that’s another reason they keep bailing out. REMEMBER Congress wanted to privatize Social Security, tax us an additional 5 percent for bonds, only to earn a max of 3 percent AND, Rubin, Goolsbee and others are in favor of privatizing Social Security with the other portion to funds on the Market. How can they do this if the Market keeps tanking? Well, they shouldn’t be doing it anyway, but THEY REALLY CAN’T EVEN BEGIN TO TRY TO SELL IT to the people with this obvious problem.

I swear, when you look at their actions, you can’t help but think they are intentionally trying to trash our country.

For those who think it’s socialism or a “bailout of the people,” why not return the money to those who paid the taxes, i.e. a complete refund of your Federal taxes. If you’re now unemployed, a refund of the last full year’s worth of taxes when you worked a full year. The money belongs to those who paid the taxes. (If you absolutely can’t stand giving it to every citizen.) Even if you only refund it to the those who paid the taxes, they would spend it, pay their mortgage. I’m not sure what’s “fair,” but I think Larry is writing about a sane idea.

I get that Feeling too..Good Points Linda ..

Lol, hurt feelings!

The core problem in this meltdown is gross maldistribution of wealth, which led to, among other things, the people who are sitting on all the money running out of places where they could invest it to earn a return because too many people were too far in debt to buy much in the way of goods and services. A good portion of that money flowed into the mortgage market on the theory that real estate is always a “safe” investment since the assets are tangible, and it “always increases in value.” Except, of course, when you’re loaning to people already so far in debt that they can’t buy much in the way of retail goods and services. That tsunami of cash flowing into the mortgage markets created an oversupply, which demanded borrowers, and the only way to find more borrowers was to do away with lending standards. And of course all this activity over-inflated real estate values. Then there was all the mortgage-backed securities, valued at hundreds of times (don’t ask how) the value of the mortgages that backed them. All these factors working together caused this mess.

Detractor, if by “great idea” you mean the “plan” to give every citizen $26,000, I’m sure you’ll agree that it wasn’t meant as a serious suggestion. It is a blend of sarcasm and satire to get us to think about the huge bailout sums, which unfortunately are reality, not satire. And I, for one, do not think that you’re a “poopy-head,” I think you’ve been pretty brave to venture forth on this blog as you have, and I do not believe you are getting paid to do so.

Also the tone. I think many posters here try to strike a balance between condescension and aggression. If you can throw in some arbitrary “facts,” that gives you credibility.

I am not surprised you are flamed. You do your own share of flaming. And not everyone flames you back or flames you at all. This thread is making a point that the government would be better off doing something, knowing the government would never do it. They will hand out to the corporations but not the people, generally speaking. The topic of this thread is more subtle than you suggest. So make your points, don’t live in the past and there are people who might engage you respectfully. Ignore those who do not. Respect is entirely a two way street.

Hurt feelings? Nope, just an on-target observation. There are a number of regulars here for whom disagreement with them on one particular issue means that you are, by definition, always wrong and a stupid and evil person.

When I’m flamed, I flame back, I’ll not deny it. But there are those here with whom I’ve been able to have meaningful and respectful conversations, and I don’t think you could cite or find an example of me flaming anyone who didn’t flame me first. Unfortunately, there seem to me more who take seeing my bloghandle as an excuse to start flinging poo.

But this thread is supposed to be about economic ideas, so let’s get back to that.

Where is that money going?

A billion dollar trade deficit.
Manufacturing employment on par with levels not seen since 1942. (Lou Dobbs)
The IMF 7.6 billion dollar loan to Pakistan to avoid collapses. (Talk about a loose nuke scenario)

“$2 Trillion Handed out by Paulson and Bernanke, But Who Got It, Nobody Knows”

In the past couple of months Bernanke has loaned out $2 trillion to unnamed companies under eleven different programs and all but three of them were slapped together in the past fifteen months of financial crisis.

To repeat, we do not know who got this money or what collateral was put up in return for the loans or what conditions were attached to them.

First I thought that shipping pallets of cash to Iraq was obscene, but when I see this…
Well Mr. Johnson, this is not a run on the banks as it is being peddled, like something from Bubbles shopping cart, it is a run on this country’s life blood. And we do not know jack.
Time to get some pizza from Galt’s.

or suspend the payroll tax, a holiday! it would generate growth all over the economy via the working class :0)

If you feel someone eggs you on, ignore them. I think the crux of this thread is the idea of handing money to where it could go right down the drain. It would be “better” to hand the 26k to each one of us. Its kind of a hard thing to debate in of itself. Best of luck! Both corporate welfare and socialism will end up angering someone. The solution as with most human conflict lies somewhere in the middle.

even Steve Moore WSJ Editorial Board, said he would support a payroll tax suspension over a 700b stimulus (on CNBC tonight with Kudlow)

suddenly, Bob Reich (former Labor Secty under WJC, now Berkley prof and big Obama supporter)no longer supports a payroll tax suspension, now that Dems are on the reins he wants all the spending he couldnt get when Bob Rubin got in his way under Big Dawg Administration

I agree we needs stimulus, but I would REALLLLY like a payroll tax holiday, let us have our money for a while, we need it!

There are a number of regulars here for whom disagreement with them on one particular issue means that you are, by definition, always wrong and a stupid and evil person.

As per below, don’t engage those people if you feel this way. I forget who said this, but be the world you want the world to be. Be respectful even to those disrespectful to you.

Detractor…
I would be interested to know whether you believe that the Auto companies should be considered part of National Security
The Russians today mentioned that whole areas of our country will be completely unemployed causing civil unrest or even breakup
I personally feel that not only should we bail out the car companies but wee should have a NASA type program to build cars that will reduce are dependence on the rest of the world and make America strong with exports.

no the equity holders were protected in this deal, unlike AIG…we, taxpayers, only got warrants and 8% dividends on the first 20 billion or so, the other 300 is out of pocket I believe..

and the street seems to think this is the new template for further deals, they are ALL lining up for this same deal now, all 9 of the big financials, JPMC, Goldman, Wells, all of them..

http://moderateinthemiddle.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/tarp-20-is-citi-bailout-the-geithnerobama-template/

That’s an interesting question.

I have thought for quite some time that the policies of the last 30 years that actively encouraged off-shoring of manufacturing were bad ideas for a number of reasons, national security being one of them.

I think that’s one of the best arguments for bailing out Detroit, but only with some major stipulations that they will find to be bitter pills to swallow, the first being, fire their management, the second being, we (meaning the government/taxpayers) get an equity stake in any company that gets a bailout, and they don’t pay dividends to shareholders until they’ve paid back at least some X percentage of their bailout cost, the third being that they can’t use their financial straits as an excuse for union-busting, and the fourth being mandates to produce vehicles that use a lot less fuel, run on alternative fuels, electric cars, and mass transit vehicles. We might also require them to source a certain percentage of parts or materials from the US. What we’ve seen from them over the past 30 years is offshoring with huge reductions in labor costs but no corresponding reductions in prices, foregoing engineering to increase profits (think SUVs – essentially station wagons on truck chasses – think especially Ford Explorers and their rollover risk – an engineering issue Ford simply decided to not address because it would lower profit), and branching out into banking and other things which are a big part of the reason they’re going under now – definitely a bigger part of it than “unionized labor”.

…shipping pallets of cash to Iraq…

That was chump change!

the inflation will be ugly, I hope we are in good hands when it rolls around, what say you, 5 years or so?

Is that Steve Moore, Club for Growth Steve Moore? Sorry, but I think that guy is just NUTS!!! I’ve never heard him espouse a single thought on economics that made any sense to me at all, but that’s probably because he’s one of the biggest cheerleaders for trickle down, which after 30 years, still hasn’t produced the outcome it always promised.

My guess would be that Steve Moore’s reason for this preference is that businesses pay half of all payroll taxes. And Steve Moore’s take on everything is that anything that gets a business off the hook for paying a tax, providing health insurance for a worker, or paying a decent wage is a GOOD thing. He’s one of those guys who thinks the Laffer Curve should be a part of the Holy Bible.

It’s a great plan, Larry. It’s as good as the plan to just fly over Iraq and drop money out of an airplane. Seriously, if money was falling out of the sky, the Iraqi’s would have eliminated Saddam themselves and become our best friends. I’m really not being snarky, it’s a more rational plan then we had when we went in.

Unfortunately they call you crazy when you suggest the Gov save money by just throwing it out of an airplane. But I swear it’s true.

Congress will never go for your stimulus idea. What would that be called, trickle up economics?

Detractor..I think it’s time to think of the auto companies in terms of saving civilization itself..Considering the infrastructure has already been built to support individual transport nothing is going to change fast towards mass transit.Therefore with it’s massive capital infrastructure the car companies must be marshaled to save America. Nothing short of a National survival program must be put in place to work on two types of propulsion methods. Natural gas and electric combined with other fuels native to this continent
Trucks need to run on natural gas. Cars need a combination fuel and electric. Cities need to adopt car free zones where segway type vehicles dominate

Well, it’s been pretty clear for quite some time that one of this administration’s prime objectives (directives?) was to loot the Treasury. That’s what all that privatization of the military and no-bid contracts were all about. This is their last chance to cash in their chips, and they’re planning on going out with a bang.

Why doesn’t the FED Buy all of Americas DEBT…That would provide a bit of Economic Stimuli..

Another bit of relief for Americans would be to round up all the Bad Actors involvled in this mess by taking a Internet VOTE of who Runs the “GRUDGE Gauntlet..” which would be lined on both sides with Unhappy and Frustrated Americans who have all been Issued Elecrtric Cattle Prods…

Maybe we could get Sponsors…and televise the Event Once a Week like all the Other “Reality” Shows…

How many would enjoy Prodding a Politician or CEO…???

That would be One way to “RUN” The government and economy…

Say China in part financed those sub prime loans, through the purchase of T Bills, or even direct investment in Citi, what does this mean in terms of the US government now owning a part of Citi, and those mortgages, say, for the long run, to China?

What collateral did Citi provide, in borrowing the money, even from the Fed?

Another quick point…What the hell are we doing in space at time when the planet is dying and the world is going into depression.

Yes, I know all the great things that come from our advancement into space..

But now we have to take care of whats happening on Earth..

The car companies will be the new space program right here on Earth.

No time to waste!!

Regarding the off-shoring of our manufacturing, what you are not seeing is that this country had started a policy of selling their goods oversea to mum the working class since the early 1900s. As long as there are markets aboard to buy our produce, the good portion of the people will be of middle class and the class tension will remain low.

The US was even willing to go to war in China and Philippine to open up foreign markets. The productivity is a lot more than demanded. The market aboard is how we keep our life style. You may be surprise to see that people in other country consider someone who live in a 800 sq ft two bedroom apartment with cars, TV, electronic to be extremely wealthy. For most people, that is basic living.

We are consuming most of the resource of the world. If you think that you can keep selling product aboard without giving them crumbs, you are mistaking.

Is the Fed buying the debt back, in the form of the sub prime mortgages (in that roundabout, convoluted Wall Street way), from foreign governments, say?

And they get a slice of it, too, don’t forget, they’re all friends.

Sounds like a Tony Rezko scheme, on steriods.

A little for Tony, a little for Obama (‘s campaign, and it was an honest contribution, really)…

WTF would hand any of those corrupt MORONS the treasury?

Fitzgerald is familiar with the scheme, as is most of the FBI, I would venture…

Who do they think they’re fooling?

deal is we have inflation right now … and every rebate usually turns into a great big pay down of debt … it’s quite possible this is what might happen, however, we still owe it one way or another

oops deflation … typo

I think it’s time to think of the auto companies in terms of saving civilization itself.

Seattle Moss, I agree with you on restoring the auto industry, but disagree with you on cutting back on space expenditures. Homo Sapiens has screwed it up big-time on Earth. We’ve killed each other mercilessly, have been cruel to animal life and decimated plant life. But if just once, a big dumb rock about a mile or more across is on collision course with Earth, if we have the tech savvy to deflect it away from Earth, we could not only save ourselves but also all animal and plant life on the planet. And so, in one moment, all of our cruelty and bad planetary stewardship could be redeemed. I know, this is kind of new-age mystical, but I think we need to continue to fund the space program. This could not only be “saving civilization itself,” but also saving the biosphere on Earth itself.

You’re suggesting a big rebate … most usually goes to pay down debt which isn’t going to stimulate the economy and it will just create a bigger government debt.

There is a problem with asset pricing in the economy. The housing market hasn’t found a bottom. The stock market is also searching for a bottom. It’s blown thru several psychological bottoms and is now above both of them so it is looking more better than other assets.

The deal is to help the markets find their bottoms so they can stop the freefall … that’s what the federal government needs to do right now — establish a bottom in several markets. Asset pricing models are really working so if they government can help with that, it would create a different situation.

It ain’t Michelle that’s bringing down Pirates, although I applaud her extraordinary efforts in the restitution of ships and crews, its the Somali Islamics, Al Shabab. Their threat;

stop taking Muslim ships or we’ll take all your money and kill you.

The pirates are now evidently scared of returning to their homeland and are negotiating safe passage to another country.

Something to ponder.

Thanks for the link.

I really wasn’t suggesting cutting back on space..I just want people to view the auto industry in the same light.

All these posts and not a single person has the wit to see his math doesnt work. 7 trillion?…yeah…ok

Lord, I’ve been calling him the Manchurian candidate for a year — he was and is surrounded by corporatists — they feather their own nests and could care less about anyone else. Talk is cheap — he will not do anything to help those truly in need.

I don’t blame kids for falling for this crap — they don’t have the life experience or usually, the work experience, to know better. What about the rest of his voters? How could they not see this coming?

If everyone just spend 26k, that will quadruple our economy, definitely bad on the inflation front. But if people pay down their debt, it will give them more spending power in the long run( a saving of few hundred dollars a month on interest for years will put just about the right amount of money in the economy, except for the banks, they will get what they deserve for charging people who can’t afford it 21+% interest).

Bloomberg article stated that Putin might be positioning himself to return to the presidency. With the economic slowdown in Russia, he thinks he is best equipped to avoid a repeat of the 1998 financial collapse. Unemployment, civil unrest, and break-away regions…sounds like recent Russian history.

Oh, brother.

(sigh)

Austan Goolsby, Obama’s campaign economic adviser, is an economics instructor at the University of Chicago. You know the Chicago School of Economics, founded by Milton Friedman, the “Free to Choose” guy?

Goolsby is the guy who went to the Canadian Consulate in Chicago and told them that Obama’s talk about renegotiating NAFTA was just campaign talk. Remember that? And then Obama denied that this had happened until the Canadian government released the minutes of the meeting. The Obama campaign said “Hillary did it too.” The Canadian government said they had had not contact with the Clinton campaign.

the key to it is spending it domestically … that’s not likely to happen

first, there’s the imports, then there’s the taxes, then there’s any paying down bills or saving …

residual … domestic spending

it’s not like the good ol’ days

Well, pay-as-you-go is the basis of the Federal and State/Local Income Tax withholding and I would kill anyone who suggests changing that (as it is, I get a case of shock when it turns out that not enough has been withheld from my paychecks–mostly because of COLAs and “step increases”–and I find myself owing just $200 to $300; just imagine the feeling of having to write out a check to the Feds for $5000 or $6000!).
As for the “sales and use” taxes being increased, uh, no. I’m already paying 10% sales tax (in Montgomery, AL)–it’s 4% for the State and 6% for the city and county (I’m not exactly sure what the split is for the city/county; I think it’s 3.5/2.5)–and city, county and state services haven’t really improved; if anything, the city’s various services have decreased (of course, a large chunk of the recent problems were fuel-related, but the city’s been having budget woes for the last several years). In the meantime, the State (in its zeal to attract new industry to the State) offers all sorts of tax breaks to these industries. (One auto or steel manufacturer that was looking at a place north of Mobile was being lured with the plans for the State to pay for a new shipping channel from Mobile Bay to the plant, as well as paying for new road construction to connect the plant with a couple of the major highways. The manufacturer, by contrast, would pay only for building the plant itself and there was talk of a 10-year tax exemption for the plant. No need for the company to pay property taxes–although the locals would likely see THEIR property taxes skyrocket as the area became more “desirable”. All of this for a plant that would employ roughly 500 people.)

Great idea!

TRICKLE UP economics!

Sounds more fun than another useless bailout.

I don’t think you could cite or find an example of me flaming anyone who didn’t flame me first

Please…I tried to have a discussion with you the other night. I believe you said I was ignorant because I disagreed with you.

You set off a firestorm and got caught in a lie, however, I give you credit for having the courage to come back after that.

I have no problem with you detractor, but don’t dish it out if you can’t take it. If you are polite and respectful we will be polite and respectful to you in return.

Bush sent me “a big rebate” , I had to pay taxes on it.

That is double taxation and not right.

Leg tingle economics.

Swift’s Modest Proposal was not more satirical than obama’s hopey-changey plan or Larry’s “gimme” idea.

As our thoroughly corrupt politicians continue to hand back 7.7 TRILLION dollars to our corrupt corporations, can they at least fed-ex every single middle-class proletariat one large tube of KY jelly (or an industrial size tub of vaseline) so the BOHICA doesn’t hurt so much?

Remember when BAD business practices were honored with having their doors shut?

Companies that waste money on lavish spending get bailed out (if they grease the right pockets), and Gov’t don’t even have the decency to give worker-bees a tube of lubricant?

Bend over here it comes again – An Immodest Proposal.

I moved out of my home of 15 years this month, after losing it to foreclosure. I did not have a subprime loan. I had a 6.00%, 20 year fixed rate loan. I was never even one day late. The payment was automatically taken from my bank account on payday. In January, I was informed by the bank that my payment was going to increase by $500/month to make up an “escrow overage”. I called the bank at least a dozen times trying to get an explanation as to how I could have any overage when the bank determined my payment and the bank took whatever that payment was from my account. I was informed that the bank was utilizing a “service company” and that the bank would not discuss my loan with me. I had to talk to the service company. The service company simply said we say you owe this. Pay it or get out. THey did not provide an accounting for the money I had paid or where the “overage” came from.

I tried for 11 months to work this out. I did not want to move. I’ve raised all four of my children in that house. But, there comes a time when you just cannot fight any more. The amount of the overage coincidentally amounted to the exact amount I had paid off the principal over the four years since I refinanced. So, to stay would mean I gave up every bit of equity I had. The bank would not ever work with me, though they did start wanting to discuss my loan after I stopped paying on it. Not once did they offer any concessions at all. They wanted me to refinance again with higher interest over a longer period and to include the “overage” and $7000 in new charges in the loan. Since I did not and do not believe there ever was an overage, I refused.

This all started at a time that I was paying $600/month for gas to get to work, the cost of everything was going out the ceiling and I simply could not pay what tehy said I owed, but I probably wouldn’t have anyway, because I did not and do not believe there was any overage and I never got a logical explanation for what they did.

I am reconciled to moving. I am now 40 miles closer to work. The son who is still at home likes his new school. This house I am renting costs less and I am not spending every nickel I make fixing what broke this month. But it hurts.

So, do not think that it is just those fools who fell for the banks lies who are getting the shaft by the banks. No one is safe. This can happen to anyone and if you do not have the money to fight, you will lose if they decide they want your home.

I do not want one penny of my money to go to bail out the bank that cheated me out of my home. I rightfully resent what has happened and do not feel I should be ecpected to save those who did me such harm. I do not want one penny of my money to go to ssave credit card companies either. I do not have any credit cards. If I cannot afford it, I do not buy it. I consider credit card companies to be worse than loan sharks and resent the fact that I am expected to pay them even after working so hard to excape their clutches.

I am tired of hearing from our lawmakers that Americans need to borrow more to save the banks. This economy is bleeding jobs. The cost of just surviving is exploding. People with no job security do not need to borrow more money, they need to save and to budget. And if they get a chance those same banks will bite off the hand they want us to extend to save them. Luckily, I have a good job that is not going to go away. I make enough to support my son. I will land on my feet, because I work really hard to survive and always have. Butm, I am pissed off and I am not the only one this happened to.

Larry, you forgot something.
According to MOB (Math of Beaurecrats) each decimal point must be moved two digits to the left…therefore we would only get $260.

S Markom you definetly get it. the home owners and forclosures are the key to this both in the cause and the cure.

If we allow them to refinance at rates and payments they can afford most will make those payments and forclosures will slow considerably helping the banks and their investors and everyone else.

Yes the banks may need to absorb some losses like the huge interest payments they should have known they would never be able to collect and even to a degree they may need to adjust some balances because home prices were so over inflated people now owe more than they are worth.

It still works though because although they would recieve smaller payments and maybe write off a portion of the balance most people know that unless you pay it off early the bank gets nearly 3 times the amount of the loan after 30 years of payments.

maybe they write off 10 or 15 grand but over the life of the loan they make plenty. Problem is they were too greedy and want to make a fortune off of each loan.

There is a reason Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple. LOL!

CQ

Yup trust has been shattered and then some. I do get it that these big companies employ a lot of people but if we don’t fix the cause (forclosures must stop) they will be back again in 6 months crying for yet another bailout.

What can we do? The people who have the power are buzy sucking up to their friends who own all these big companies. The people will continue to be screwed and big business will get bigger.

No wonder trust is gone.

CQ

I think you should get yourself a lawyer. Your case sounds like a real mess. They are supposed to tell you what the “escrow overage” (BTW that is not even a correct term for it) is for. You do have rights and should an atty. prove that they broke laws in doing this to you the court could force them to give your home back and possibly force them to pay you dammages.

Sometimes there will be an escrow shortage which usually means your taxes or insurance went up and the payments did not cover that ammount. It is never an escrow overage.

legally if this was the case they were required to notify you of what expenses went up buy how much and to show you that the bank actually paid these ammounts.

Im so sorry that this happened to you and yes you are right it’s not just those who knowingly got in over their heads that are in trouble. The banks are supposed to be proffessionals and adhere to certain standards. They also knew what they were doing making all the bad loans that are causing a lot of this crisis and should never have done so.

Not knowing what state you are in I can’t point you to any help but if I knew I might be able to.

In my state Washington I am aware of the laws but they are not the same everywhere.

CQ

I have heard this discussed in our Friday night coffee klatch in Goddard, KS. We decided some of the money the government keeps spending at an astonishing rate should go to citizens of the USA. I think we have earned after the farce of an election this year. Hillary is accepting SOS throwing her 18 million supporters under the bus. And of course Obama keeps throwing more and more of the so called progressive left and Whole Food types under the bus…too!

Of course I am truly enjoying the Obamabots heads exploding…can’t wait until he is really in office.

I didn’t vote for Obama. I even knew in 2006 I would never vote for him….not after watching Patrick’s election back home in Massachusetts. I knew in 2004 that Obama would become The One The Messiah and a cult of personality…

We need to get our hands on that money before we bail out every bank and every business in the country.

One bank that isn’t taking money from the FEDS….Capitol Federal in Topeka, KS….neither are the community banks! I have more respect for the small community banks in KS who have told the FEDS to shove it!

We lost a home three years ago. We are actually not sorry we lost the home…we hired an home inspector (in cahoots with the real estate agency) who told us that the house was fine but the roof needed to be redone. Well it was going to cost almost as much as we paid for the house to fix properly. Water leaked in the basement walls and was coming up through the floor….so in the end it worked out for us! And the bank wanted $10,000 from us to stop the foreclosure…we told them to shove it.

We rented a small place and saved our butts off to buy a new home. It took 21/2 months to find a bank to write the original loan (local community bank did it! We got high marks for getting our credit score so high in two years and he was impressed because we carried little debt when we bought the house.)

It was hard work to clear up our credit but we did and recently we bought a new “used” home for under $100,000 here in Kansas. Our payment is really low because we put $20,000 down on our house. However our payment jumped slightly with no notice from our finance company…it didn’t jump to where we needed to pay $500 extra per month…about $40 per month which we can afford because real estate taxes jumped a huge amount! We found out because we got a statement of our new tax rate.

I find it hard to believe that you would have $500 a month in overages. I can see maybe $20 or so but not that much.

It happened to my friends too. Their payment jumped with no explanation from Wells Fargo (it was a real estate tax increase which meant they had to feed their escrow account more per month.) By the time they were able to track down the information Wells Fargo refused to take anymore payments from them. They wanted $10,000 to stop the foreclosure. They got a lawyer, saved all their payments and went to court. We aren’t in touch any longer but they still live in their home. They won their case….

My payment went from $769/ month to $1222/month. “Escrow overage” is the exact term used in the letters I received. They claimed I had an overage of over $6000 and expected it to be paid off in one year. They were lying, and if I had gone to an attorney, I figure it would have cost me even more. I don’t know. Maybe if I had any fight left in me, it would have been worth it.

My kids are really mad at me. But, they don’t pay my bills. My rent is less than my payment. I am saving a lot of money on gas. And it takes 5 minutes to get to work instead of an hour. In addition, my son wanted to go to a certain school here and now he can.I am better off, it is just hard to give up something you’ve worked for and fixed up for so long. I am strong. I’ll deal with it.

But, it seems like every time I fixed one thing three more things broke. My other three kids moved out. I did not need a five bedroom house. I had five acres and I could not keep up with it. I was tired of fighting. So, I thinkI will be okay, but I resent what happened, and it is not fair to expect someone who has been wronged by one of these banks to pay one nickel to help them out. They are a bunch of crooks, and I don’t care if the economy does go to shit, I don’t want to help them out. Had they treated their customers better, they would not be in this bind.