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The Mothers Cry Help

Assault weapons are a cannard. They really are irrelevant to the trauma of repeated mass killings by deranged white kids. We had the spectacular primal scream of Liza Long, whose article, “I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother,” has gone viral. Now there is Deborah Gordon. She actually is a friend of my neighbor. Ms Gordon writes in a similar vein to Ms. Long:

I’ve been treated for major depression for 22 years.

I tell you all this because it’s time that those of us with psychiatric diagnoses cut the chains of stigma that keeps mental illness locked in a closet, relegated to whispers, viewed as a sign of weakness, poor parenting, indulgence. Just as it’s time to have an honest discussion about gun control in this country, it’s also time to have an honest discussion about our mental health system.

We still don’t know if Adam Lanza, who killed 26 women and children last week and then shot himself, had been diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder. But I’m pretty sure there is a mental illness in there somewhere. I’m pretty sure his mother went through hell trying to find him treatment and help. And I’m pretty sure she was stymied at every turn.

I know this because I’m watching my friend go through the same thing with her 9-year-old son. Like the heartbreaking essay by Liza Long now circulating widely on Facebook, my friend has a son with serious mental health issues. One day he’s a lovely, smart, kind little boy. The next he’s completely out of control, a danger to himself and those around him. He’s threatened suicide. Called his parents words he shouldn’t even know the meaning of. Spent days pretending he’s a monkey.

My friend is lucky in one way. She has enough money to pay for testing, psychiatrists, special schools, a full-time “shadow” at school, most of which her health insurance doesn’t pay for. She has her own business, so she can take time off several times a week for the multitude of doctor and therapist appointments, when the school calls and says her son is out of control and must be picked up, for the research needed to understand what the doctors and therapists tell her. . . .

It’s a losing fight. A mental health expert told NPR last year that more Americans receive mental health treatment in prisons and jails than in hospitals or treatment centers, and that the three largest inpatient psychiatric facilities in the country are in jails.

We need options for families like my friend’s. We need better research into the mental health issues of children. We need clinical studies on drugs and therapies for these kids.

But more than anything, we need to cut the chains of stigma around mental health issues, come out of the closet, share our stories, and demand that we pay the same attention to depression, psychosis, schizophrenia, and the plethora of other mental health diagnoses that we pay to cancer, heart disease and diabetes.

Because while guns kill people, mental illness is typically what drives someone to pick up that gun in the first place.

A Jewish friend of mine was on the verge of proposing a ban on assault rifles but, when I brought up the case of Israel and the prevalence of assault rifles in the hands of reservists throughout the country, he calmed down. The “gun culture” in Israel is quite different from the “gun culture” here in the states. More telling–mental health services are readily available in Israel and not in the United States.

The problem of crazy middle class boys, largely caucasian, carrying out mass attacks is rare but real. The fix is not in a new law. Laws don’t fix crazy. If any good has come out of the massacre of children it is this–a growing number of Americans are now aware of the troubled kids like Adam. Let’s spot them and get them help and at least keep them from getting a weapon in their hands.

  • puma_for_life

    Blame Jimmy Carter, not Adam’s mother, who is currently being demonized for being a single mother of an autistic child and doing the best she could.

    Jimmy Carter declared that all people have rights, including the mentally ill and, as such, they could not be kept in mental institutions. Therefore, the mental institutions were closed down and the mentally ill released onto our streets.

    Note: the word is that Adam’s mother was beginning the commitment process to have him institutionalized. Well, due to Jimmy Carter, that is not a simple process. We do not know how far into the process she was, but it is a bureaucratic thing and a court thing.

    BTW, I do not believe autism/aspergers is considered a mental illness such as schizophrenia or psychosis.

    Adam has never shown any violent tendencies. Why is this woman being demonized? I think it is because she has money and therefore open to a lawsuit. I have already heard people talking about how her estate should be sued, etc. I think that is sick and pathetic.

  • MG6

    Remember this you all…I believe Obama suggested the same regarding accelerated death and euthanasia. Government wanting to play the ultimate role of G-d?

    http://politicaloutcast.com/2012/12/socialists-pushing-accelerated-death-and-euthanasia/

    Didn’t the Chicago machine suggest this?

  • chrissy

    At one time in this country we actually had hands on mental health professionals and mental health facilities. Then walked in the ACLU. Caring for the mentally ill now begins with a judge.

  • buzzlatte3

    According to Rasmussen Reports, 86% want mental health laws reviewed and strengthened. Guess the gun ban thing didn’t work out so well since only 27% were for stricter gun laws. The populace of the US awakens!!!

    BTW – How about Jake Tapper today – asking Obama where he’s been the last four years. http://www.thegatewaypundit.com

  • FloridaFI

    Larry – you mentioned it in a previous post, but no one took the bait. WHEAT.

    Guys don’t like to share. We would rather bitch, moan, groan and complain, but we don’t really like “Sharing.”

    It is with great reluctance that I will now talk about my experience with “WHEAT.”

    About six months ago I confronted my cardiologist about my lifelong weight problems. I am a very active male just short of sixty. I have been 40 to 60 pounds overweight since I was in my twenties. I am 6′-4″.

    My cardiologist recommended that I explore “Gluten Free.”

    I have been a regular reader of your site for quite a while and I had noted your ad for the book – “Wheat Belly.”

    About three months ago I clicked on the ad and began reading some of the information presented. Much of the info resounded with me so I ordered the book.

    I have now been “Wheat Free” for over two months. I have lost, without effort, 24 pounds. I now continue to lose 1/2 to 1 pound per week.

    My wife now eats the same food as I do and has lost 12 pounds.

    I visited my cardiologist last week. My blood pressure has dropped by 30 points on the high and the low.

    Last Friday my blood work came back. My last blood work was eight months ago. My cholesterol dropped from 279 to 150! My cholesterol has never been below 235 in my entire adult life.

    I know – amazing, right?

    Now, let me share my first week off of wheat, because it was amazing.

    By the third day I told my wife that I had never felt this good – ever. The only way that I could describe the feeling was euphoria.

    My point? You are spot on as Wheat being a causal element in our national out-break of mental illness.

    I am a normal, social, likable, A-type male with a wonderful wife and family.

    I am now calmer, nicer, more aware than ever before. Also, for us oldsters, I now forget less. And, I do not ache in my joints like before.

    Wheat is poison.

    Read the book! The studies are very conclusive.

    Wheat consumption could very possibly be the main cause of many mental disorders.

    • buzzlatte3

      Congratulations!

  • Susan Bernard

    So the ability to fire off 30 rounds in 30 seconds from a high powered assault rifle has nothing to do with the severity of these tragedies? How about the fact that almostly all OECD nations have much tougher gun laws, far fewer guns and far fewer gun deaths and they all have the same mental health and violent culture issues? That tells you nothing? You seem to be advocating more needs to be done on mental health, but yet you vote for a party that wants nothing but budget cuts in precisely these kinds of government services. Does that make sense????

    • Hokma

      this idiot just spouts endlessly the same nonsense and has done it under Pat Douglas, PPAA, Lola, scottymac.

      You can tell because no two people can be this dumb consistently.

  • HELENK2

    http://weaselzippers.us/2012/12/19/dem-rep-sheila-jackson-lee-demands-law-abiding-americans-disarm-turn-in-your-guns/

    shelia jackson lee – law abiding citizens turn in your guns.

    some good questions in the comments

    would the backtrack bunch ever ask criminals to turn in their guns?? Hell holder supplied them to criminals

  • HObama HObamanana

    The lunatic left response to this tragedy is the moral equivalent of locking up guns and administrating psychotropic medication to them to make certain they don’t kill any more children.

    • win43

      Who on the left is saying that we should respond with gun control INSTEAD of better treatment of mental health issues?

      We can have one AND the other. You act as if people are proposing one INSTEAD of the other.

      Although actually… some people really are proposing one instead of the other. You, for example.

      • Hokma

        The brain dead on MSNBC have yet to spend more than five minutes on the subject and instead are consumed with banning guns. That’s who.

        Obama gave it lip service today in appointing Biden to find a bunch of laws to pass right away to ban guns, That pretty much sums up the depth (or lack) of concern by Obama.

  • HELENK2
  • HARP2

    I wonder how many people he could have killed ?

    —————————————–

    Former ABC News political reporter Sam Donaldson was pulled over on Savannah Road by Lewes Police on December 1 for a traffic violation. An officer says that he’d been drinking. Donaldson failed field sobriety tests, and was arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol. He’s been scheduled for a court appearance at a later date.

    http://pro.wgmd-fm.tritonflex.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=51&post_id=3901

  • HELENK2

    you know if there were half as much outrage over fast and furious that killed over 300 people in a country that is supposed to be our friend and two border agents and an unknown number of US citizens, maybe the congressional outrage could be believed

  • HELENK2
  • HELENK2

    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/french-psychiatrist-sentenced-patient-commits-murder-192855747.html

    french psychiatrist sentenced – patient commits murder.

    why do I think this will not help

  • HELENK2

    http://hotair.com/archives/2012/12/19/harry-reid-in-2004-i-carried-a-gun-with-me-everywhere-i-went/

    harry reid in 2004 ” I carried a gun with me everywhere I went”

  • Deapster

    If the liberals get a gun ban, it needs to include a gun ban in movies and video games as well. NRA only protects ownership; Hollywood celebrates their irresponsible use.

    • Hokma

      We should ban Quentin Tarantino and Russell Simmons.

  • HELENK2

    stolen from crawdad hole

    Mama grizzlies guard the den; they don’t declaw themselves and hope other predators do the same. #SmarterThanLibs—
    votermom (D) (@votermom) December 19, 2012

  • HELENK2
    • HObama HObamanana

      Can we demand that they learn how to enunciate English properly? /snark

  • HELENK2
  • HELENK2

    just curious does obamacare have any help for the mentally ill. any coverage for hospital stays or evaluations??

  • HELENK2
  • HELENK2
  • POdVet

    It’s not and never has been the guns. It is not and never has been movies/video games, though those can effect already unbalanced minds. It is MENTAL ILLNESS! The largest mass killing of children was the Bath school disaster in 1927. Before violent video games, and movies.

    The sad fact is, that as bad as this tragedy was, it could have been much worse. And even if by some miracle, you removed every single gun from the United States, and kept any more from being smuggled in (good luck with that!) It still would not end mass killings. There are too many ways someone who is insane could rack up a body count. Going to ban all fertilizer? Sorry wouldn’t stop it. Ban all fireworks etc etc that can be modified and used to make a bomb? Still wouldn’t stop it! A 6 pack of bottles, a gallon of gas, rags and lighter are all a psycho would need to do a lot more damage.

    That is the truth that politicians can’t avoid no matter how they posture. We need to revamp the mental health system. We need institutions to safely and humanely house our citizens who through no fault of their own for the most part. Are and will continue to be a danger to themselves and others.

    • Hokma

      More than that we need to de-stigmatize all forms of mental illness. I said this after Aurora. Until we start treating mental illness as openly we we treat physical illness we will have repeats of these kind of massacres particularly by young men like this.

      I think Larry’s headline of this post “The Mothers Cry Help” or in this case “A Mothers Cry For Help” would be the appropriate title of the story of this tragedy.

      Here was a mother who was doing all she could to help her son and having no guidance or help in her efforts – leaving her the only path left which is the unenviable option of court commitment – and having no idea that the path would result in her son snapping.

      • POdVet

        I agree, but even then it will not stop them completely. There will still be instances when someone just snaps. In those situations, about all you can hope, is that there is someone nearby with a firearm and the training to use it. Who can limit the damage as much as possible.

  • Barfly_Kokhba

    The fact that a 6 year-old kid can be diagnosed and medicated with a “psychological disorder” for not wanting/being able to pay attention in a school classroom, but there is even the slightest question from anybody whether a grown man who guns down twenty children in cold blood had a “psychiatric disorder” or not speaks volumes about the absolutely perverse cultural climate in this country.

    And I realize that this particular author above is wondering whether there was a diagnosis, not an actual illness, but in my opinion that level of “fine distinction” demonstrates the detachment from reality surrounding the whole topic.

    If that man did not have a psychological disorder then “psychological disorder” has no meaning.

    And let’s remember that the Aurora “Batman” shooter was an honors graduate student in neuroscience.

    • Hokma

      “perverse cultural climate ”

      Well said. This is the heart of it. Unfortunately it will be ignored. Instead these willful idiots in DC will pass some law trying to make sure future gunman have less bullets to kill less people.

  • MG6
  • JohnnyTwoDog

    Assault Weapons don’t kill people
    People kill people
    But the assault weapons sure make killin easy,
    and fun for the really sick.

    Pro assault guns = pro easy killing

    You can never convince me those should be legal to possess
    any more than Iran or my neighbor should possess nukes.

    There is a line obviously drawn between weapons the public should possess and weapons that must be illegal. Assault weapons easily fall into the category only the military and police should possess.

    • Hokma

      Just because the government bans something does not mean someone cannot get it through illegal means.

      Alcoholic drinks were banned in the 1920s yet consumption was as high as it was before the ban.

      And, of course, if you want banned substances like cocaine or heroin you can get it.

      The so-called ban on assault weapons didn’t work the first time and it won’t work now. In fact it will only enable the illegal gun market to provide to anyone who wants it and without any government oversight.

      The government should continue to regulate but close gun show loopholes and better enforce current laws,

      But this is entirely about mental health and a culture of violence. That’s it.

      • Dave L.

        Every time the Government bans something, some person or persons lose more rights.. Look how well the Gun banning in Chicage works. The tough laws in Conn. did not help. Criminals don’t give a care in the world about the laws, some day the moronic politicians will figure this out, if we are lucky !!.

        • win43

          The gun ban in Chicago was struck down by the conservatives on the Supreme Court in 2010. It was never given a chance to work.

          • Hokma

            The guns in the hands of gangs in Chicago are not legal guns so any ban is irrelevant and meaningless.

    • HObama HObamanana

      I am not a gun nut (or owner) but I believe strongly in the 2nd Amendment. And nothing within it’s text places a single limitation upon what constitutes the right to bear arms. Do police have the right to carry semi-automatic weapons? Does the military? The National Guard? There was a distinct reason that this Amendment was placed in our Constitution. The people are allowed to bear arms because our government is allowed to bear arms.

      The murderer that carried out this horrific crime had a mental illness. His family let him down. He should have been under the care of a medical professional and monitored carefully and closely. He should not have been exposed to weapons and certainly should not have had access to them. A psychotic murderer is responsible for these crimes. Not fracking guns or our Constitution.

  • Susan Bernard

    At 57% percent Obama’s approval rating is at its highest since he kill Osama Bin Laden.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57559902/poll-most-predict-major-problems-if-fiscal-cliff-isnt-averted/

    Not sure where the Republicans approval ratings are, but if they keep defending the NRA (who had to shut down their website, Tweeter and Facebook accounts because of the backlash), keep bashing minority women like Ms. Rice and if they take us over the fiscal cliff because they want to defend low further tax cuts for the wealthy, I cannot image their approval will be climbing any time soon. Republicans are now so far out of the mainstream that they are becoming a joke. And many of them know it. Just ask Jindal. I look forward to the elections in 2014.

    • Hokma

      Hey maggot – that is one poll which never was very good. Other polls show him dropping. None are relevant to anything except a basement dweller like you.

      What your rant has to do with what LJ is talking about only you knows.

      All I know is that your comments are all the same no matter what name you attach to them (Pat Douglas, PPAA, Lola, or whatever other alter egos you have)

    • HARP2

      We understand the liberal way of thinking.

      Much better to get them before they start school huh ?

      According to the Guttmacher Institute, there were 1.21 million abortions performed in the United States in 2008, the most recent year for which data is available. This amounts to 3,322 abortions per day.

      http://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.php

      • Susan Bernard

        Nothing wrong with abortion. The fetus is not a human being. Women have the right to chose in this country. Get over it.

    • HARP2

      Unless you are a hypocrite, you must be terribly upset about your government GIVING fully automatic weapons to Mexican cartels, causing 300 or more deaths……RIGHT ?

  • Susan Bernard

    So the ability to fire off 30 rounds in 30 seconds from a high powered rifle has nothing to do with the severity of these tragedies? How about the fact that almostly all OECD nations have much tougher gun laws, far fewer guns and far few gun deaths and they all have the same mental health and violent culture issues? That tells you nothing? You seem to be advocating more needs to be done on mental health, but yet you vote for a party that wants nothing but budget cuts in precisely these kinds of government services. Does that make sense?

    • Hokma

      Please go back to your basement and do more google searching moron.

      “So the ability to fire off 30 rounds in 30 seconds from a high powered assault rifle has nothing to do with the severity of these tragedies?”

      So you would fell better if Adam killed 10 kids instead of 20 based your warped logic (which is shared by all other left wing loons).

      And, no, this tragedy would not have been prevented if there was a ban on assault weapons and large magazines.

      • win43

        Wouldn’t YOU feel better if he’d killed 10 instead of 20?

        The difference between 10 dead children and 20 dead children is 10 dead children. How is that not a better (less awful, anyway) outcome?

        • POdVet

          And if he didn’t have a gun at all, and just threw Molotov cocktails through the windows, and killed 100 or more…would you feel better? What a moronic question!

          • win43

            Once again, it takes a particular and strange kind of burying one’s head in the sand — now we’re talking about Molotov cocktails? — to pretend that the type of gun used has no effect on the body count.

            Most school buildings have shatter-proof windows, by the way. You can’t throw a Molotov cocktail through them (and kids can’t throw things out, which is why they’re in place). So move on.

            • Susan Bernard

              Pointless to argue with these morons. Facts go in one year and out the other. These ideologues will argue the sky is actually red when it is blue. Banning assault weapons and many other weapons as well as just making it very tough to buy a gun will take some time to work, but over time there is no reason the U.S. cannot have the same gun availablity and conditions as found in the U.K. where gun deaths barely register compared to what we have in the U.S. I bet we could easily cut the gun violence in half in 5 to 10 years in this country with much more restrictive gun laws. End of the day these water carriers for the NRA, which is a water carrier for the gun manufacturers are typical “conservatives” and could really care less about all of the gun violence in this country. It is just the cost of doing business in this country so they can have their freedom to shoot a few targets once in a blue moon or is that a red moon.

          • POdVet

            Now you are pulling stuff out of your nether regions. Most schools do NOT have shatter proof windows. Just a portion of the more recently built schools, and very very few older ones have been retro fit. And the molotov scenario is just to show the extreme end of the possibilities. Be honest with yourself, there are thousands of places you can find “recipes” for bombs, and even shatter proof glass isn’t unbreakable unless it is military grade ballistics glass.

        • Hokma

          Do you understand just how stupid that logic is or do you want me to explain that to you.

          Hint: the answer ZERO dead.

          Don’t even attempt to support your answer.

          • win43

            Obviously zero dead is what we all want. But given that it happened at all — given what is, sadly, the inevitability of occasional random acts of mass violence — why wouldn’t you want to limit the damage done?

            How incredibly callous of you not to care about, or even consider, the possibility that SOME, even if not all, of these lives could be saved. You’ve gone way off the deep end in defending a political point.

            • Hokma

              Callous? You and the liberals want to put a band-aid on something just to slow the bleeding. Tell that to the 10 parents of children who are dead because their government cared more about how many bullets are fired rather than the fact that bullets were fired at all. THAT my friend is callous.

              • win43

                You understand this this isn’t a zero-sum situation, right?

                I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly about the mental health aspect — frankly, I think it’s the biggest single part of the problem. This country does an appalling job identifying and treating people with mental health issues, and we must do better.

                But, realizing we do not live in a perfect world, we must ALSO do what we can to ensure that when violence occurs, its impact is as limited as possible. In this case, a crazy person with a big gun killed 27 people.

                Would it have been best if he’d been identified and treated before he had a chance to get a hold of that big gun? Of course.

                But it is ALSO a necessary to do things that make it less likely that, if the mental health system (even an improved system) misses guys like Lanza, they don’t walk into schoolhouses with guns that are quite so big — or with guns at all.

                You keep talking about band-aids… but band-aids do serve a purpose. Let’s I keep cutting myself on a nail sticking out of the wall. When it happens, I should put the band-aid on the cut, and then fix the nail. Just because the band-aid doesn’t fix the nail doesn’t mean I should skip the band-aid altogether.

                It’s not one or the other with mental health and gun control. We can do both, and we should do both.

                • Hokma

                  He had two pistols and likely would have killed as many as he did. After 9/11 they did not ban box-cutters, they made sure we were safe from any terrorist. Still we focus mostly on the weapon and not the people.

                  The mass killings in this country are for two reasons:

                  1. A person with some mental disorder.

                  2. Gangs and drugs.

                  Neither can be addressed and resolved by gun laws or bans.

                  The former can be resolved if the culture of this country accepts mental health treatment without stigmas as well as begin to self-regulate the gratuitous and excessive violence of video games, movies, and music.

                  The latter is much harder. 260 kids in Chicago have been gunned down in the past 3 years. These are by illegally procured guns by drug gangs. You can pass all the laws you want – even ban all guns – and it will have zero effect on the carnage in Chicago.

                  The only resolution in Chicago is they get a Mayor with balls and brings law and order to the streets of Chicago. NYC was just like Chicago until Giuliani became Mayor. He ignored all the activist groups and just brought tough law and order and cleaned up crime quickly. It did not make him popular in some neighborhoods, but he did the job.

                  • win43

                    Okay, so you assert (dubiously) that we’d be faced with the exact same bodycount if he’d used pistols instead of an AR-15. If that’s true, and the Glock and Sig Sauer pistols he brought in have the same killing power and efficiency as an AR-15, then we should ban those guns as well. No civilian needs that kind of stopping power.

                    You think the body count would be the same with a revolver?

                    • Hokma

                      So yo would advocate that we ban all guns except those old revolvers from the days of Wyatt Earp?

                      What you advocate is that criminals can have any gun they want, but lawful citizens cannot.

                      Makes no sense.

                      When reality hits with whatever legislation comes out you will see a token effort and nothing really significant that will not match the rhetoric.

                    • win43

                      No.

                      I propose that we ban the manufacture, sale, and possession of certain weapons above a certain level of power, capacity, and deadliness. The AR-15 would certainly be covered, and — according to you, since Lanza would have done just as much damage with them — the Glock and Sig Sauer pistols Lanza carried apparently would as well. There is a level of precision and ability to kill human beings quickly and efficiently that is simply unnecessary for any civilian, and it should be illegal to possess such weapons or produce them for individual sale.

                      Couple that with an aggressive campaign to get existing weapons off the streets. Buy-backs, seizures, severe penalties. It’s not like we’d wake up tomorrow and the problem would be solved, but over time it would have an effect. It’s what they did in Australia 15 years ago, and it worked: http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

                      And yes, of course, we should structurally reform mental health care. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

                      Or, as you’d have it, we can do nothing at all about guns, and just feel really bad when these things happen.

                    • buzzlatte3

                      Ah yes, more government to proliferate the black market in gun sales. SMART! Yeah, hey you think like Obama.

                    • win43

                      Even black markets are subject to the laws of supply and demand, smart guy. If you cut off the supply, what happens to the market?

                      The black market for guns is not like the black market for drugs. You can’t grow hydroponic assault weapons in your basement, or cook them in a lab in your garage.

                    • POdVet

                      Talking to you is obviously a waste of time and effort. You don’t care about facts, just the agenda. How do you plan on cutting off the supply of black market guns when you can buy AK’s in dozens of countries in Africa alone for less than $300. You talk about the gun ban in Australia and hint at it reducing crime. You cherry pick your facts and ignore that all crime including murder is up dramatically since Australia’s gun ban.

                      As for your praise of the ar lol ask a marine if they would rather go into combat with an M16/M4 or an M14. Navy Seals still routinely buy M14′s with their own money rather than use an M4.

                    • win43

                      Yes, a domestic gun ban would not make a dent in the black market for guns in Africa. Brilliant observation.

                      And yes, criminal cartels still could, and would, smuggle foreign-made assault weapons into the U.S. It would be the same problem we have today with black market weapons, although — due to the risk and expense of import, and the elimination of the domestic supply — imported assault weapons would become more expensive here than they are today. Which is something at least.

                      Now, let’s get back to the issue at hand: guns in the hands of mentally ill people in the U.S. Knowing what we know about Adam Lanza (no social skills or ability to cope with the world on his own) what kind of luck do you think he’d have had acquiring an AK-47 from a criminal cartel on the black market?

                      I’d bet not very much. If his mother — who owned her weapons legally, and about whom we have no indication that she’d have bought them illegally if they were banned — hadn’t been allowed to have ANY guns in her home, it’s likely that this would not have happened at all. And if she’d been allowed to have guns, but only less deadly guns, it might have happened, but at least some people who are dead would still be alive today.

                      So remind me again why it’s a bad idea to do what I’m proposing?

                      ps: I have to laugh at you accusing me of cherry-picking facts, when you go and make shit up. Murder isn’t up at all in Australia since 1996, let alone up “dramatically.” Cite your source for that. Says here gun homicide dropped by almost 60% from 1995-2006, and homicide by all other means is flat. So an overall decrease accounted for by the decrease in gun violence, and zero indication that would-be gun offenders are just using a knife instead: http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

                      Oh, and home invasion — one of the classic examples gun advocates use to argue that permissive gun laws deter crime — is flat, too. Imagine that.

                    • Hokma

                      First, the United States cannot make a firearms manufacturer to not manufacture something as long as there is a market for it somewhere. These manufacturers sell to dealers all over the world. If the United States

                      So if you ban any of the Colt .45 pistols they will simply sell them to dealers out of the country who will then black market them back into the U.S..

                      As far as the black market, I would not worry about their economic model. They make plenty of money. The Black Market does bot have to pay federal or state excise or income taxes.

                      In addition, many of the arms manufacturers also make arms for law enforcement and the military. For that reason, nothing substantive will happen other than some mutually agreed to token gestures of regulations.

                      You and other lefties bring up other countries and most of it is based on some bullshit U.N.. study and not actual facts.

                      When you consider other countries you fail to understand that no other country is a melting pot like the United States.

                      You also do not understand that in these other countries there have been growing drug gang problems far worse than we have even in Chicago.

                      As the saying goes, guns don’t kill people people kill people.

                    • win43

                      “Melting pot”? What in the world does the ethnic makeup of the United States have to do with gun violence?

                      This oughta be interesting.

                    • Hokma

                      You obviously don’t know the history of gangs in this country and not just in recent years.

                    • win43

                      And no… you absolutely CAN ban the manufacture of a certain product within US borders. Everything else you point to is just a matter of enforcement, even through (the horrors!) international law. Cue the crazy anti-U.N. rants, I guess.

                    • Hokma

                      And if the U.S. banned Colt from manufacturing something within U.S. borders, what would they then do? Anyone? Anyone?

                      Crazy and U.N,. are synonymous. It is the most corrupt organization there is and whatever their information is is worthless.

                      There is a difference between “regulating” something and “banning” something. The latter does not work. What happened to booze when they banned it? Can anyone procure heroine and cocaine even though they are banned? And, yes, prostitution is banned in most places but easy to illegally access.

                      No I am not for legalizing drugs but just because you ban it does not make it hard to access and use.

                    • win43

                      So you think Adam Lanza would have put his hands on a gun imported into the country by a criminal cartel? That’s a likely scenario, in your mind? Connecticut kid with Asperger’s buys an AK from a guy in the Bronx?

                      Don’t forget that THAT is who we are ultimately talking about here.

                    • Hokma

                      This kid was very smart and resourceful. So the answer is “yes.”

                      “imported into the country by a criminal cartel? . . . from a guy in the Bronx?”

                      Don’t make a fool of yourself.

                    • POdVet

                      Sorry I have to admit my data was old. The data from 2000 showed the rather large spike in 1999, not the slow downward trend since. And sourcing also makes it difficult to verify. According to AIC In 2010, 88 percent of homicide victims were victims of murder. The 229 recorded victims represents a 19 percent decrease in the number recorded since 2006 (n=281 murders) and a 33 percent decrease since the highest recorded number of
                      victims in 1999 (n=344).

                      Yet according to the NHMP, 363 homicides were committed in Australia in 2010. See the numbers just dont quite jive now do they. So do you believe the Australian Institute of Criminology, or the National Highways & Motor Police?

                    • POdVet

                      Something you honestly just don’t seem to realize win43. An AR-15 is not a BIG gun. It is actually a small caliber rifle. That’s why it is normally not used for deer hunting. It can not reliably take a deer down in one shot. The AR-15 “looks” scary, but is not and never has been (even in it’s fully automatic military variety) a very good weapon. It’s accuracy is limited, it’s stopping power weak. The only reason it’s full auto is liked by some is because it is easy to spray and pray.

                      You talk about banning Glock’s and Sig Sauer’s as well, but still wouldn’t make any meaningful difference. Unless you were to somehow magically ban and confiscate every gun, and secure our borders completely so drug cartels didn’t just start smuggling in AK-47′s freely available in a large portion of the world. It would not end the problem.

                    • win43

                      Stop talking out your ass. The M4/M16 is the military designation for the AR-15. I.e., the AR-15 is just a semi-auto version of the main assault rifle used by the U.S. military.

                      You’re saying that gun “is not and never has been… a very good weapon?” Somebody should inform the Marines.

                      Just because it’s not good at stopping a 250-pound deer doesn’t mean it can’t do a world of hurt to a 150-pound adult… or 40-pound child.

                  • Alan Davis

                    They DID ban box cutters on airplanes. And regular sized shampoo and shaving cream and any sharp objects.

                    • Hokma

                      So then we should ban assault weapons only in schools and movie theaters with your logic.

      • Susan Bernard

        You are a moron. Of course 10 less dead children is far far better.

        So we should just let assault weapons kill people all across this country because we cannot stop every single shooter. More stupid logic from you.

        You are a real winner. Win43 just completely takes all you ridiculous comments apart. You should take a break from NQ, as you are making yourself look really stupid.

        What is a Hokma anyway? It certainly cannot mean a “wiseman” in your case. You should really be calling youself a “kolboynick”.

        • Hokma

          “Of course 10 less dead children is far far better.”

          Zero is better psycho.

          Look scottymac will you stop pestering people here with your psychotic and ignorant rants.
          How many more names do you have jerk

          And no, win43 lost and lost big time in this debate.

          Just go back into your OWS basement maggot and ponder just how pathetically worthless your life really is. Maybe its better to occupy your time talking to all your alter egos schizo.

    • Dave L.

      Did I miss something Where in the hell did the Assault weapon come into theis shooting ! He left the Bushmaster in the car, it wasn’t used in the shoting. In 1934 the military coined the word Assault Weapon, it defined the assault weapon as being SELECT FIRE, ( FOR MORONS, THAT MEANS FULL AUTOMATIC OR SEMI AUTOMATIC BY MEANS OF A SELECTOR LEVER.) The Bushmaster is not capable of full auto, thus it is not an assault weapon, the MSM started useing this word and libtards and morons ran with it. Thus an assault weapon ban would not have saved one life in Conneciut. If someone wants to kill as many eople as possible, they do not need a so called assault weapon. This is political rhetoric by senate and congressional idiots. Lets ban autos, if he didn’t have access to a car, he couldn’t have driven to the school !

      • KenoshaMarge

        Most of the liberals and the POS trolls, pontificating about guns know little or nothing about them.

        Take MSNBC’s resident lunatic, one of several but the only drooling one that I know of, Chrissy McTingles:

        On Hardball, speaking with Illinois Dem Senator Dick Durbin, Matthews proposed that Congress “outlaw” semi-automatic weapons. Does he not realize that doing so would render illegal virtually every hunting rifle in production?

        He doesn’t know and he doesn’t care. He just spews. Like most liberals and all trolls.

      • HObama HObamanana

        Actually he used the rifle for gaining entrance into the school and for most of the killing. The initial reports had it wrong. They claim that a shotgun was what was left in the car. Or at least that is what they are saying now. Quite honestly I don’t trust a single thing the lunatic left press says, so who really knows.

        • Dave L.

          You could be right, I was told the Bushmaster was in the car. If he did use the Glock and the Sig, he had to have plenty of spare magazines. The word released by the medical examiners office initially was that each person was shot between 3 and 11 times. Don’t know if thats true either.

      • Susan Bernard

        You need to go read the police commentary. He used the assault rifle to do all the killing and then used the hand gun to kill himself. The victims all had multiple shots from the assault weapon. The assault rifle was absolutely deadly, as it was in the other reason mass shootings. No reason to have those assault weapons other than to kill people. And to think he got it from his Mother. Nice country we live in with all you people defending why people should have these weapons of mass destruction.

  • Susan Bernard

    So the ability to fire off 30 rounds in 30 seconds from a high powered rifle has nothing to do with the severity of these tragedies? How about the fact that almostly all OECD nations have much tougher gun laws, far fewer guns and far few gun deaths and they all have the same mental health and violent culture issues? That tells you nothing? You seem to be advocating more needs to be done on mental health, but yet you vote for a party that wants nothing but budget cuts in precisely these kinds of government services. Does that make sense?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=630858156 Betsy Levin

    I just don’t understand why the mother still let him have access to the guns knowing that he was on the brink. She should have had the foresight to remove them from the house.

    • Susan Bernard

      The mother herself never should have had those guns in the first place. Nobody in this country should be allowed to have those types of weapons.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=630858156 Betsy Levin

        I still believe in responsible gun ownership and stiffer regulations to own them.

        • Susan Bernard

          “stiffer regulations to own them”

          I agree. And there is no need for people to be able to own assault rifles. Their only purpose is to kill people. Cops around the country certainly want assault rifles off the street.

          • buzzlatte3

            Again, the larger issue is the lack of state of the art treatment facilities for bona fide diagnosed sufferers of mental illness and a legal plan to make such treatment available as an option for the family to chose to help their loved one. Banning guns won’t take the mentally ill off the streets and/or diminish their potential dangerous harm to themselves or others. Taking them off the streets for treatment, when agreed upon by the family, the law, and mental health workers, will diminish that danger.

            • Susan Bernard

              It is not just a mental illness issues. Many other countries have exactly the same mental illness issues, but see far less gun deaths. Studies have show the main difference is more restrictive gun laws.

              • Hokma

                It is a mental illness issue and it is a culture of violence and a family breakdown issue.

                This is not a gun control issue at all.

                And your google search studies are worthless.

                • KenoshaMarge

                  Don’t waste your time Hokma. There is no reasoning with those who decided long ago that guns are evil and must be taken from the hands of American citizens. Damn the 2nd Amendment for not making that easier. Given time, and wading through the blood of innocents to pontificate, they may succeed in prying guns from the hands of honest citizens while never even coming close to keeping them from the hands of criminals or crazies.
                  They don’t care and won’t face reality because they all ready know everything. And find it necessary to try to convert those of us who don’t agree with them and never will.
                  It’s just their arrogance and hubris that makes them believe they must somehow inflict their opinion on us.
                  Just another POS troll looking for attention. And sadly, getting it.

                  • Susan Bernard

                    Yes, you are correct guns are evil and there is no reason for any one to have one. The 2nd Amendment was written a long time ago before there were glocks and Bushmasters and school shootings.

              • HARP2

                Handgun crime ‘up’ despite ban

                A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

                The ban on ownership of handguns was
                introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas
                Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their
                teacher dead.

                The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings
                College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of
                crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98
                to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

                http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

                Care to try again ?

                • Susan Bernard

                  Another completely idiotic post from HARP2. You honestly are trying to make the case based on this study that the U.K. is the same as in the U.S. There were 58 gun murders in the U.K. in 2011, which is down 18% from 2010. In the U.S. there are about 9,000 gun murders a year. If you applied the same per capita gun murder rate as in the U.K. to the U.S. that would translate into only about 260 gun murders in the U.S. a year instead of the 9,000 we have today. The U.K.’s far more restrictive gun laws have resulted in far less gun violence in the U.K. versus the U.S. That is a fact.

              • HObama HObamanana

                If your blathering bullshit about “studies” is true then actually cite them. Yet I will somewhat agree with something you said. Many countries do have mental illness issues. They are socialists.

          • Hokma

            Hey dimwit. Try and follow this. I know you are slow witted so take your time.

            If the esteemed idiots on Capital Hill choose to BAN assault weapons, those assault weapons will then be sold through illegal gun channels (see Chicago gun violence for course of guns there). Then any resourceful and desperate crazy person can more easily gain access to that assault weapon and for less money (see 1920s prohibition, or see cocaine and heroin).

            No go back into that basement and digest these facts.

    • KenoshaMarge

      Yup, it’s all that dead woman’s fault. A woman who was also a victim.

      • Susan Bernard

        She clearly bares some of the responsiblity for making guns accessible to her mentally challenged son. She even encouraged his gun use by taking him to firing ranges.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=630858156 Betsy Levin

        Oh for God’s sake! Stop putting words in my mouth! You seem to have a bad habit of doing that. I was merely pointing out that her son’s state of mind should have warned her.

  • TexMexSoup

    And as Larry mentioned before, our diet. All these growth hormones, genetically enhanced vegetables, wheat or refined flours, chemicals to preserve foods, hell I’ll even throw in chemtrails. Add all this to broken families, horrible violence on TV. These kids just don’t give a shit about life.

    • Susan Bernard

      All those issues you raise are identical in most other developed countries and yet they have far fewer per capita gun deaths. The only difference is their much stricter gun laws verus the lax laws in the U.S.

  • HARP2

    The problem is most of us listen to Thomas Jefferson, while Liberals listen to George Jefferson.

    • Susan Bernard

      Better to listen to George Jefferson than to your Sarah Palin.

    • KenoshaMarge

      Perfect!

    • Susan Bernard

      Nothing wrong with George Jefferson. Better than listening to Sarah Palin.

  • Deapster

    Add middle class, white boys not able to deal with morbid feelings of love and jealousy and we might be on to something. Where are the myths to teach boys to be men in their lives today?

    Or rather, what ARE the myths out there today teaching boys to be men. No wonder violence against women or violence against women who trigger deep and conflicted feelings in young men translates into violent acts of wholesale destruction of the cause, but not the source.

    • Susan Bernard

      You have all those same issues in all other countries, yet all other Western industrial nations have far far fewer gun deaths. The only difference between American and almost all other countries is the very very lax gun laws in this country.

    • Susan Bernard

      Many developed countries face exactly the same issues you bring up, yet they have far fewer gun deaths. Studies have shown that the biggest reason for much more per capita gun violence in the U.S. versus other countries is the very laxed gun laws in this country.

      • Hokma

        Your google search studies are bullshit studies and stop using them even though your hero Marcos from the Daily Koz Kidz is trying to.

        • buzzlatte3

          Looks like Susan Bernard is a govt. pd drone troll. Flying around trying to change the narrative to shore up Zero’s stance. Yawn and swat.

          • win43

            One of the funniest things about the regulars who comment here — and there are a lot of funny things about you folks — is the delusion that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid operative.

            You do realize that this site is an internet backwater, right? Barely anyone reads the posts, and even fewer people read the comments. Those who do are 95% absolutely unconvinceable right-wing die-hards (like you), and the other 5% are people like me who enjoy screwing with you from time to time. What possible real-world gain is there for the Democrats here?

            This place has literally no effect on the public discourse. Any public credibility Larry ever had died years ago with the “whitey tape” lie.

            • buzzlatte3

              So do yourself a favor and go spread your “wisdom” (cough-cough) somewhere else. It’s okay. I’m sure you’re loved elsewhere.

            • Susan Bernard

              Larry Johnson has in fact completely wrecked any crediblity he once had with his years of ridiculous posts on this website. He has gotten just about everything wrong on this website for years. Still waiting for the double dip recesson and that U.S. attack on Iran that he said would happen a long time ago. His predictions and observations over the last year about Romney were also great.