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24

By Pat Racimora on December 3, 2008 at 4:00 PM in Current Affairs, Torture

Jack is back…

Maybe you saw “Redemption,” the first two hours of what will continue as a harrowing journey through the minutes of a 24 hour period starting in January. Jack Bauer will find really bad people, and he will try to make them talk, any way he can. Otherwise, the free world will be destroyed.

So it’s time to talk a little more about torturing captured persons who are presumably (we think) a danger to our national security.

The first stumbling block seems to be its definition. Let’s say for the sake of argument that torture is anything done against someone’s will that causes physical pain or sustained discomfort.

After that it gets very fuzzy. “Water boarding” isn’t particularly painful I would imagine, and it takes only a couple of minutes to make a person feel like he is drowning.

I put that in the torture column.

Then what about not laying a hand on anyone but causing serious emotional pain? Like, “Talk or I will kill your oldest son before your eyes.” Or, if it violates the foundation of your deepest beliefs, stripping you naked in front of strangers of the opposite sex. Or parading you around on a leash like a dog.

That kind of thing qualifies as torture I think.

But where is that bright line that separates torture from, say, being unfettered in a clean cell with sufficient food and water and something to do (like reading books)? Anybody want to try?

Then, to make things even more complicated, no matter what the definition, is it ethical to use torture if the following three conditions are met?

1. Good intelligence tells us that this person knows something, and unless we find out what it is many people will die.

2. All of the other techniques have been tried (including psychological persuasion procedures that actually stand a better chance of working–if there was time, that is) but failed.

3. What we need to know could happen within hours—it’s urgent!

What say you?

Me, I hate torture and was comforted by the fact that both candidates for President are against it, although I am not sure of their details. The devil is in those details.

(What I can’t explain is why I am addicted to “24.”)

Tricia Spiegel

This is a tough one. People like to play like it really doesn’t exist…

“Rendition” was a such a difficult movie to watch.

retire05

Rendition? If you believe anything that comes out of Hollywood, you have to be a few bricks shy of a load.

Now imagine this:

Your name is Mark Lundsford. The police have arrested John Cuey and say Cuey knows where your daughter is but Cuey is not telling them where. She may still be alive and if Cuey gives up her location soon enough, she might live.

How far are you willing to go to get that information out of Cuey since time is of the essence? Would you waterboard him? Is your personal adversion to what you consider torture worth your child’s life?

gmanedit

I knew nothing had changed after 9/11 when America went back to watching things blow up on TV and at the movies. I can’t bear to watch “24.” Why do you invite violence into your brain?

Pat Racimora

Well, that’s a good question and I normally do not like violent movies. In fact, even on 24 I turn away when the torture stuff happens. I guess the story is exciting.

Psychologists may have an explanation though–we often try to find ways of facing what we are afraid of, but in safe ways. Why else would murder mysteries and violent content be so pervasive and popular?

Being so involved in politics has drawn me to politically-inspired fiction. Politics scare me also!

Rich

Interesting. Many Americans must be so afraid of nudity and sex that they can not even stand to face it or see it on the screen or TV. Violence they must be willing to face.

More sex and nudity may reduce violence.

Rich

HARP

Nude is OK when you are young but like my wife said…..that cute little rose I got tattooed on years ago…has now become a long stemmed rose.

oowawa

Long-stemmed rose could be good, depending on the location.

MBC

I agree, make love not war, except when dealing with those people who have no soul and believe killing Infidels is their ticket to heaven. How so to deal with them?

Pat Racimora

AND, when they get to heaven they have all those virgins waiting for them. The sex connection once again.

http://firefox AnnieCollier

We don’t know what we’d do if one of our loved ones was in jeopardy. Hypothetical questions about torture…just don’t know. I do know that I could pull a trigger if someone threatened me or mine without any guilt at all.

It’s pretty obvious though that some method was used on the terrorist who survived in India. No cooperation on day 1 but on day 2, he turned into a canary. His “confessions” sound legitimate insofar as the scenario of how, when and so on…but who knows? I’m sure the Indian security forces could have put a lot of this together in hindsight after finding the trawler with the murdered Captain and following the timing of events.
http://noquarterusa.net/ NoQuarter

Pat, thank you so much for that stunning, stark, soul-breaking image.

Hey, I confess to enjoying the escapism of “24″ at times, although in past years the plot lines were so absurd that it was a bad joke.

Did you see my recent article about the premiere of “24″?

In that piece, published the day of the premiere, I sought to do two things:

1) to make people aware of the utterly marvelous article by Jane Mayer about the portrayal of torture in “24″ — and all the creators behind the TV series; and

2) to turn people on to the Dave Barry blog about “24″ – where he makes endless fun of the series, and his merry band of regular readers who join in — some of them write so well that Dave has made them a part of the blog.

Also, in two stories i re-posted from 2006 and 2007 in the last couple weeks here — but which only about two people read — I tried to describe the problems with torture as a tool for extracting information.

I mentioned some important agents who perfected the opposite technique of befriending and winning the trust of the suspects in some of the worst acts of terrorism – including the bombings of the embassies in Africa — and how their building of relationships with these suspects led to far, far more knowledge and led to far better results in capturing others. I won’t bother providing links to those stories, and the stories of the TRUE HEROES who stood tall against torture and who succeeded in extracting torture-free confessions — since no one will read them anyway.

Larry Johnson, and all of his friends in the CIA, FBI, and other agencies, know that TORTURE DOES NOT WORK. EVER.

“24″‘s crime is that it shows 1) torture always works against bad guys, who are always for some reason weak-willed, and 2) torture NEVER works against Jack Bauer because he’s the only human being since the beginning of time who has never broken under torture. Both premises are utterly false and ridiculous.

- nasuS

By the way, Jane Mayer’s book — which we’ve advertised here for three-plus months, and which Larry Johnson has referred to in many stories, as have I — is a remarkably readable and engrossing book. She’s not only a great investigative reporter, she’s also a writer who can get you lost in her writing because it flows so logically and compellingly.

I check the stats on our Amazon sales nearly daily.

Jane Mayer’s book has been advertised and featured in stories at our site for three months = roughly 120 days X hundreds of thousands of readers.

Her book has received three clicks.

Two of those who clicked on the book bought it.

Just as a silly comparison, I’ll share with you that I posted Maxim the other night to mock Obama’s inclusion of that magazine on his campaign plane. That ad got 55 clicks in the 5 short days it was featured. No sales, thank god.

It’s not like reading Jane’s book would be an unhappy chore. She is a highly entertaining writer! She tells all these scoops about Cheney and Addington and Yoo and the rest of those hideous, odious subhumans in the White House. The stories are beyond fascinating — they make one want to keep reading endlessly. But I guess that won’t happen.

– nasuS

http://noquarterusa.net/ NoQuarter

Also, I have a former friend — we were dear friends — who decided to hate me because I didn’t support Obama. She called me up one day and ripped me to pieces. Okay.

She had one belief that bugged the hell out of me. I’d disagree with her, but always politely, in the interests of our friendship and the hope that a polite discussion would influence her, over time.

here’s her belief, and it’s held by many Vietnam veterans:

John McCain broke under torture and revealed so many secrets that it led to the death of countless Americans.

For that reason alone, she despised John McCain and nothing he’d ever done since would make up for that.

Thing is, no one knows what John McCain said or didn’t say. No one knows if any information he finally gave away — because he, like all of his cellmates, eventually gave in — was truthful! Or important! Or still relevant!

Oh well … you here all get, I trust, that that was a just plain dumb opinion of hers.

At least now, since she dumped me as a friend after my unforgivable sin of not liking Obama — so ironic because she is, let’s just say, not especially keen on black people to begin with.

http://noquarterusa.net/ NoQuarter

I forgot to add that she was absolutely convinced that she would have NEVER broken under torture. She knew that about herself. Wow.

Strawberrybitch

No Quarter, the next time you see her, if you ever see her again, reach out and grab one of her nipples as hard as you can, I mean, just pinch down like a pitbull with lockjaw, and let’s see how long it take her to scream out in pain and start begging for you to stop. Then see how long it takes her to call the cops and file a law suit.

http://firefox AnnieCollier

Heck. If anyone so much as looked at one of my fingernails with interest, I’d tell them anything they wanted to know. So I laugh at people who say they’d never tell.

My daughter, who sadly voted for the one, did say about McCain that in her opinion “anyone who could get into a fighter jet and fly over territory where they were shooting at you” is a hero to her. Me too.

Another example of one who played it with terminal niceness during the campaign…

Strawberrybitch

Ok that’s great, I’m still laughing…for me, it’s teeth, run that steely, scrapey thingy along my gumline and I’ll be your huckleberry.

Peggy Sue

Well, not to diss your friend, No Quarter, but that narrow line of sight is why we’re where we are today. The I refuse to see any flaw in a candidate faith, the supposition about what McCain said or did not say while under torture and the unsubstantiated and impossible prediction of knowing what you, me or anyone might do under pow conditions is symptomatic of something akin to religious zeal or a cultist mentality. It’s far afield from reasoned thought.

Which should make us all worry.

When I read of people involved in stampedes [the last one in Long Island that crushed an employee to death] or two shoppers shooting one another over a sale item at Toys R Us, I think of this same “non-thinking,” irrational mode of behavior.

It’s almost as if people have been infected with something that’s made them temporarily insane. I don’t get it. There’s all kinds of excuses out there: fear, tension, economic insecurity, wishful thinking, etc., etc.

But it’s disturbing. And when it’s a friend? It’s truly painful. But then, I had a close relative tell me over the holiday that even if Obama is not a natural born citizen and his election was unConstitutional it was:

No Big Deal.

As I said, disturbing.

http://www.rabblerouserruminations.blogspot.com/ Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy

Great cartoon and post, Pat – thank you!

NQ, from what I have heard, everyone breaks under torture, even if what they say is completely useless (by design). I cannot believe that ANYONE could withstand 1/2 yrs of torture without ever giving in. Heck, most people wouldn’t even still be ALIVE after that long, much less go on to a storied career in public service.

This is not unlike my sister belittling McCain for not doing more on the deck of the USS Forestal – you know, when he almost got blown up, and then got blown back trying to help another pilot. Maybe if these Obamabots acknowledged the demonstrable integrity of McCain, they would have to admit that Obama is sorely lacking in that area (at least as he has demonstrated to date).

And I say this abt McCain because, even when I was a full fledged leftie Dem (before the RBC fiasco), I recognized McCain for the hero that he is. It didn’t diminish my leftiness (is that even a word?? You know what I mean…) to do so. I know, without a doubt in my mind, that it takes a person of uncommon intestinal fortitude to survive all that McCain did while in service to this country. But that’s just me…
bert

I do not know how many would NOT have been broken. Did you ask her how long she could have held out? I am almost positive I would not have been able to hold out. Therefore, I can feel empathy for McCain and all Americans who find themselves in that situation. Too bad your friend cannot find it within her heart to feel for those who are captured.

My first psychology professor in college always used to say that people do what they want to do and they make up their excuses, or why they do something afterwards. Your former friend just did not want to vote for McCain and that was her excuse.

Bettie

I do not know how many would NOT have been broken. Did you ask her how long she could have held out?

I disregard the comments of any who have never been through it, yet are so sure they could withstand it.

My Uncle, in WW2, was a tailgunner, he’d sit in this little bubble like apparatus on the bottom of a plane, shooting at the Germans, from up in the air, while they shot back.

(And then he came home, and built irons, at Sunbeam, for a living).

I could not believe this quiet, accordian playing man risked his life on a daily basis, in this manner. No one applauded nor treated him as a hero, but then he didn’t expect to be recognized as extraordinary simply because of his military duty –this is what you did as an ordinary American, it was expected of you.

It seems those who advocate torture do so from behind the comfort of their desks, maybe NOT informed about the nature of war, or not realistic about it.

I have no respect for them, at all.

Zeke

People need to understand this and Larry WILL back me up on this, there isn’t a damned thing that John McCain could have told anybody that would have hurt a soul.
Do any of you suspect that the US Navy would tell any pilots anything that might risk lives if they were caught?
Damn, but the logic of that is ridiculous. McCain was just a pilot whose job it was to drop bombs on bad guys. They would tell him in the morning to fly to point x and push the red button and turn around and come home. Done. Lets have supper. No secrets, no spy shit, just a milk run that went wrong.
In Special Forces we were taught many ways to escape and ways to protect our bodies if beaten but they always told us that if the bad guys wanted the info, that sooner or later, they would get it.
No one is capable of withstanding the right pain and many people have very high thresholds but we All can be reached. Anyone who says differently just hasn’t met someone with a real imagination. Torquemada was a lightweight compared to any good “chemist” of today.
The best torture fits inside the opponents skull where it can rattle around and find things to break. Physical pain is the province of an unsophisticated imagination.

Pat Racimora

Thanks so much for this GREAT comment. I am going to go back and reread every link you present. I’ll order that book as well!
Bettie

I won’t bother providing links to those stories, and the stories of the TRUE HEROES who stood tall against torture and who succeeded in extracting torture-free confessions — since no one will read them anyway.

I think part of the problem is denial, the idea one has to contemplate torture for any reason is too frightening, too brutal a reminder we are not safe, ever, really, including those who advocate it’s use without understanding its greater implications.

That’s life, isn’t it?

Sometimes I get the impression those who defend its use see it as some sort of magical shield, some sure fire method of protection against the forces of terrorism, but that is not true, it simply does not work.

But to give up that cherished belief is to make oneself vulnerable, unsafe, psychologically, and they aren’t prepared to admit they can be physically harmed, or even murdered, the defense against terrorism requiring something more than simple physical violence, and intimidation.

For them, the answer to terrorism has to be simple, a need to feel secure, immediately, acts of force allowing them to function only in denial of the truth.

Some, though, who advocate its use are simply nutter butters.

Rich

Great cartoon!! Without showing torture being performed, the hand and the lighting says it all. Congratulations.

As to the last part why you are addicted to 24, considering that you are against torture only you can answer for sure. It may have lest to do with torture and maybe to do with suspense and the idea of bad guys getting their due.

People have said that they are against torture but what does the Geneva Convention say about the definition of torture. Can reasonable people agree on the definition?

I feel that society does not like to think about torture in the same way as they do not like to think about how the animals we eat are housed, treated, and eventually killed for food.

Torture in some form, in my opinion, is part of life. If I was put in jail, even for a crime I did commit, for me that would be torture. Going to a job you hate and that is making you physically or emotionally sick, is torture. Watching your loved ones go hungry because you can not buy them food, or have a place to prepare food, is torture. I could go on, and I think you get the point.

Until we think about torture and talk about the various forms of torture, torture will continue to be a way of life.

Rich
http://www.deadmessengers.com deadmessengers

On ethics…

There is really only one ethic: it is unethical to maliciously cause harm.

Ethics are absolutes. Morals and values are not. It is certainly unethical to cause harm, physical or otherwise, to another, but it isn’t necessarily immoral. And that’s where this gets, as you say fuzzy.

So, the answer to your question is – it is unethical, but, depending on a society’s mores, at the moment, it may not be immoral and against its values. Since societies tend to model their cultural behaviours on morals and values more than ethics, torture, in all its forms, won’t be going away anytime soon.

Bettie

Maybe not worldwide, but the greater consequences of torture result in an irreparable degradation to the society which endorses its use.

Its practice is a threat to the survival of the US government, for myriad reasons.

This is why SO many legitimate flag officers have taken against it, asking Obama to abolish it.

Those would be the officers who understand why the American legal code protects the American government, America’s standing in the world.

As opposed to the stupid ones…

http://www.deadmessengers.com deadmessengers

P.S. – great cartoon! And an equally well done topical post. Thanks for this.
ridin’ dirty

I was addicted and watched the whole first season, but couldn’t understand how anybody could be so incompetent to let their wife get kidnapped TWICE in one day and then murdered. Also, the realization that I had just wasted one entire day of my life…
GBS

Jack always seems to resolve this in favor of torture in 24, and it will be interesting to see where Obama draws the line once he is fully apprised of all the confidential intelligence materials only Presidents have access to.

http://www.deathofthedemocraticparty.com xax

I don’t know. Last season he was getting kind of crazy. Well… really crazy.

Seattle Moss

I love 24…Best show ever!

Although I really liked the X files..

hadenough

1. Good intelligence tells us that this person knows something, and unless we find out what it is many people will die.

Assuming we are talking about a hardcore AQ guy that would rather die than live, torture won’t work. You need drugs.

Torture won’t get you the truth if somebody really doesn’t want you to have it. From Vietnam to the Soviet gulags to East Germany and going back as far as there have been humans torture was most successfully used to get ‘confessions’ not truth.
Seattle Moss

My comment is this….After 911 a majority of Americans gave Bush the authorization to do whatever was necessary to prevent attacks from those that do not play by the rules and desire to kill innocent individuals on a massive scale.
Have we prevented attacks with these brutal methods. probably
have we scared the living shit out of the world and shown that America means business when you attack our country. you bet!
I do think America needs to moderate and perhaps close Gitmo now.
However, One nuke or one biological attack that kills thousands will once again change peoples minds too
Whatever it takes to keep us safe

http://firefox AnnieCollier

You are right, Seattle. Back when I was a Dem, I half way agreed with my Republican friends when they said they voted for Bush/Cheney precisely because we needed some dirty SOB’s in office to deal with the crazy terrorists. I voted Dem following 2001 but it did strike a chord.

Seattle Moss

I never voted for Bush.
However, there is the world you wish you had and then there is the cruel world we actually have to live with.
We have much more terrorism to look forward to. The question is are we going to dismantle our shield built on brutal tactics or are we going to play by the rules and be attacked again.
The economic collapse we have been experience will be a walk in the park if we lose a city.

Strawberrybitch

Seattle. We captured the Blind Shiek and Tim McVeigh by playing by the rules. Bin Laden is still out there and we broke the rules. I’m sorry but I like being the good guy…um…gal.

Seattle Moss

My theory is that Bin Laden is dead. That guy is two inches taller than me at 6’6″ and has to be hooked up to a kidney dialysis machine. The video of him back in 2004 looked to me like a double. The threat is real and I’m not for torture against man or animals. I’m just a nice guy..
I look at the reality of how people react. can you just imagine watching TV and seeing an entire city destroyed and what kind of response you would get.That’s where I’m going with this.
Seattle Moss

Strawberry
How hard is it to capture a BLIND Shiek who openly defies America on the streets with a bullhorn
How easy is it to have law enforcement arrest Tim McVeigh 30 minutes after the bombing because he was driving without plates.

Strawberrybitch

Oy. If you had read any of Bin Laden’s rants, he knows he doesn’t have to attack America anymore. He fought in Afghanistan, he knew he couldn’t defeat the USSR on the battlefield. His strategy was to keep Russia fighting until they ran out of money. Drain the coffers. He was a student of history and he quoted Sun Tsu a couple of times if I remember. He wants us to overextend ourselves militarily in Iraq and around the world and run our economy into the ground. Bin Laden is no Hussein. Bin Laden is highly educated and knows how to use fear. You don’t need to bomb the shit out of everything, just make your opponent jump at his own shadow constantly. You can choose to live in fear jumping at your own shadow just like Bin Laden planned or you can use your brain and find the root causes of terrorism and end it. Remember this “A hungery man is an angry man.”
Bettie

But they did, didn’t they?

We only had 9.11 because Bush ignored the memo.

Period.

http://firefox AnnieCollier

Agreed. My son-in-law’s mother, a staunch, life long Republican did like Rumsfeld’s handling of terrorism. She absolutely blew my mind on Thanksgiving though by announcing that Islam is the most peace loving religion on the planet. Well, she’s going to be 91 in a few months…maybe she’s been watching too much CNN.

We all know there are peace loving Muslims but as many have said, if the moderates don’t clean up their own house, they have no legitimate standing. I am suspicious of anyone who talks the talk but never walks the walk. If we had an attack even on the scale of India, all bets are off. And, I am not for closing down Gitmo. No, not as long as there are people there who plan or planned to do us harm. Sorry.

Never watched “24″ but I am hooked on “Dexter”. I try not to replace Dexter’s kill with imagining some of our more odious players in real life. Oh, heck. Sometimes I give in.

Bettie

If we had an attack even on the scale of India, all bets are off. And, I am not for closing down Gitmo. No, not as long as there are people there who plan or planned to do us harm. Sorry.
———
You’d give up your liberty for one terrorist attack?

After what we just witnessed?

See, I would fight you,(as well as the terrorists) to perserve the Constitution, and find alternative methods.

Ferd Berfle

Homeland Security is neither. Instead of deconstructing the Constitution with such absurdities as the Last-Refuge-of-Scoundrels Act, we should seal the borders by putting up a barrier, not just a fence. If people want to feel safe, that is the way to do it. Personally, I rather dislike having my rights as a US citizen trampled on because of nitwits outside the country.

Imo, relieving American citizens of their rights due to foreign intrigue without securing the first line of defense, our borders, is a fool’s errand. We will only have less rights, little verifiable security, and a bottomless pit of expenditures in the bargain.

http://firefox AnnieCollier

I’m with you on the borders. It’s not encouraging that the Arizona Gov is now in charge of our borders.

I hope GWB comes up with a modicum of dignity and gives full pardons to the two border agents railroaded by the federal prosecutor for shooting at the damned drug smuggler.

Ferd Berfle

I hope GWB comes up with a modicum of dignity and gives full pardons to the two border agents railroaded by the federal prosecutor for shooting at the damned drug smuggler.

I agree with you. They perform what amounts to a thankless job, which puts them in harm’s way daily. Those men should be pardoned and their rights restored.

TeakWoodKite

We ~~will~~ only have…

Hell of a bargin too…

Karma

Speaking of following someone around by the minute.

Have you seen this?

~~

http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/1208/bill_gates_05610a88-ce8c-4f6a-804b-b89b723a1eee.html

“Politico 44 ~ A living diary of the Obama Presidency”

~~

Even includes his workout this morning….and wraps up the day with….’eludes the press pool and leaves his transition office early to head home.’

Leisurely day to come into work at 11am.

http://www.deathofthedemocraticparty.com xax

These people make me sick. But if they would rather live in their fantasy world than face the reality of what’s happening- let them.
http://firefox AnnieCollier

It’s the same pattern he’s always had. Leopards do not change their spots. Like GWB, he’ll be a designator not a doer.

Sassy

Pat, thank you for a sincere post.
My thoughts on torture are difficult to express…I feel them physically.
First, there are two victims when one must torture an unarmed, helpless person.
For many, being clean and fed, but not FREE, would destroy their soul…especially if they were innocent.
In the instance of urgency, torture could be justified, and those who had to do the dirty task could take solace in making the effort in dire circumstances.
http://firefox AnnieCollier

Yes, Pat. Thanks for the thought provoking post. One of the reasons this site continues to be the most interesting one I’ve encountered. I took a break a while…the election…too depressing to talk about…I think I’ve recovered…somewhat.

Pat Racimora

Thank you kindly, Annie.

Seattle Moss

This is a warning to Obama and the left wing blame America first crowd.
If there is any attempt to investigate or prosecute those that kept us safe from terrorism then the blood is on your hands if we attacked again.
This may be the last four years of the democrat party if they allow an attack through dismantling our shield.

Strawberrybitch

I’m really sorry to break this to you Seattle, but as long as we are dependant on these very folks to sell us oil and we have to go to war to keep the oil flowing, we will eventually be attacked again. No matter who is in office.

http://firefox AnnieCollier

They are one scary bunch alright. Let’s hope there are enough common sense people left in Congress (I know, LOL) to keep them from carrying out their traitorous plans. If the attacks last week didn’t wise them up, then we should question whether they are patriots. Of course, he’s all over the map so far as what he says he’ll do.

I take some comfort that the president isn’t able to dismantle everything.
NCgirl

Thanks Pat. They should just go back to using sodium pentathol. It isn’t the “truth serum” that it is touted to be, but it does cause one to become totally uninhibited. Prisoners might just cough-up some good information while under its influence. I don’t believe in physical torture under any circumstance. There are plenty of psychological tactics that could be employed.
JozefAL

The only reason Jack Bauer has never succumbed to torture is because he’s never had the RIGHT thing applied.
We’ve never been shown that Jack has any sort of weaknesses–the few that he ALLEGEDLY has (i.e., his “family”) only serve to strengthen his resolve (in spite of his having almost no genuine interpersonal relationship with any of them–almost as if they’re nothing more than plot contrivances*). All humans have SOME type of phobia–a deep-seated, unexplained, irrational fear and finding that fear is the root of any psychological torture.
Of course, knowing the show, if they DID give Jack some phobia, it would be so utterly ridiculous that the situation could never possibly occur (e.g., the irrational fear of seeing Capt Kangaroo having sex with Kermit the Frog).

*Yes, the snark was fully intentional.

Pat Racimora

LOL!

TeakWoodKite

Pat, interesting Picture.

I have not seen the 2 hour 24 yet, so I can’t comment on it.

What I can say having watched every season back to back, which took several weeks of viewing, is it left me in a reasonably well defined state of anxiety. Humans are not built to be “on” without a cost.

For those that actually do Jacks job, the human toll is enormous. I do not condone torture.

The issue for me is;
1) we have seen in very graphic terms the 14th century mind set and complete rejection of “modernity” from those that commit these acts using terrorism as tactic.
2) Being an “open society” makes this country VERY vulnerable to events like 9/11 and I always wonder how much liberty is worth loosing when one’s principles are overrun by practical realities of “self-preservation” or political expediency.
4) Sun Tzu’s ancient dictum, “Know thy enemy” and

In addition to ignoring these well documented Islamist strategies, more troubling still is the Defense Department’s continuing failure to appreciate the pertinent “eternal” doctrines of Islam — such as the Abode of War versus the Abode of Islam dichotomy, which maintains that Islam must always be in a state of animosity vis-à-vis the infidel world and, whenever possible, must wage wars until all infidel territory has been brought under Islamic rule. In fact, this dichotomy of hostility is unambiguously codified under Islam’s worldview and is deemed a fard kifaya — that is, an obligation on the entire Muslim body that can only be fulfilled as long as some Muslims, say, “jihadists,” actively uphold it.

Raymond Ibrahim: The Islamic Way of War
It leaves me to believe there very few weapons of choice. Being “Diplomatic” with a group of people who want nothing more than to kill you, as history bears witness, is not a winning strategy.
The question for me becomes who to turn this evil back on it self. (evil = the loss of innocence through violence)
oowawa

Torture? Heck, you don’t have to torture me, just show me the implements–I’ll sing like a canary, anything I think you might want to hear. Makes you kind of wonder about the value of information obtained under torture, doesn’t it?

benny

lol

Mr. X

I really like 24. Can’t get enough of it. I like it not for the blowing things up (thought that is certainly a plus), it’s because it’s one of the few shows that really displays the issue of trust. Almost everyone that Jack trusts ends up dead, injured or a traitor. Yet Jack keeps on going. I keep looking for reasons as to why he does the things he does and why he never gives up. And the show never disapoints.

The torture thing should not be representative of what Government should or shouldn’t do. But rather as an exploration of what would any one of us do when you find the one responsible for killing your friends. Extracting information is just a copout so that they can show it on TV. I’m surprised no one has mentioned torture simply as punishment. I know it’s not PC. But in the moment, who knows what one would do.

Pat Racimora

VERY interesting perspective, Mr. X. I’ll have to add that to my ruminations about this difficult subject.
oowawa

I’m surprised no one has mentioned torture simply as punishment.

No, it would take someone with a mysterious name like Mr. X to bring this up–torture for the sheer gratification of revenge. Now to me, you can make a more persuasive argument for torture to exact revenge than you can for torture as a means to extract valid information. Someone deliberately hurts an innocent child? That’s a powerful argument for wanting to hurt them back.

TexasMirth

I admit to being a fan of 24. And I think I should be conflicted about it because the torture scenes, particularly last season when they were torturing Jack’s coworkers nearly every episode, was particularly disturbing. It seemed like they elected to torture BEFORE they considered just asking questions. That being said, there is something about KNOWING the good guys will win over the evil ones that keeps me watching. Having worked for a police crime lab and having witnessed how often bad characters in our society go unpunished, I frankly enjoy watching the unbeatable Jack Bauer overcome horrific odds to bring justice to those who deserve it.
WildChild

Then, to make things even more complicated, no matter what the definition, is it ethical to use torture if the following three conditions are met?

1. Good intelligence tells us that this person knows something, and unless we find out what it is many people will die.

2. All of the other techniques have been tried (including psychological persuasion procedures that actually stand a better chance of working–if there was time, that is) but failed.

3. What we need to know could happen within hours—it’s urgent!

What say you?

We went to war in Iraq based on “good” intell from “reliable” sources that assured us we better act now or the smoking gun would be a mushroom cloud. So we start nabbing people named by the “relable” sources and we torture them becsue we know they know and we make it re painful because we know they know and they all talk and tell us what we want to hear and we invade and kill a lot of people and then….

Saddam doesn’t have WMD.

Anyone who wants to to torture and thinks it’s a nifty way to get info out of people, do this first. Render the person you love most. Torture them exactly the same way you want to torture everybody else, but ask them subject matter you know they don’t have the answer too. I guarantee you they will deny it all up front, but in the end they will talk. They’ll give you all the lists you want, and they will all be bullshit. It’s important to do this to the one you love most, because the people you are grabbing are someones else’s one they love most. If you can’t do this, then you shouldn’t even think about doing the other.
Steve_in_KC

Good stuff, Pat! Your simple illustration is very evocative. Nicely done.

I see so many people here saying they love “24.” I watched the first two seasons. I found it left me full of anxiety, which I already have plenty of!

For me, I’d rather watch entertainment that makes me feel good: a little laughter, an interesting detective story, or even science stuff.

As for the subject of torture, I agree with everyone’s posts!
Pat Racimora

Just a note to thank everyone for commenting here. I read ever one and found that experience very poignant. It’s a disturbing topic, but I think we have to bear witness to it.
Don X

A timely topic and a provocative cartoon, Pat.

I have not been a 24 watcher, so I can’t quite get with the conversation about that series.

What follows is going to be a bit of a diversion (off the wall, perhaps) from the topic of whether torture should be banned or condoned in some instances. There has been much good discussion of this already. I am against torture in any form.

It occurs to me that aside from the difficulty of drawing a fine line as to what is and what is not torture, that there are some interesting notions in historical literature as to what constitutes torture and what may be more or less effective in bringing about a desired result.

Consider the old proverb, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”. According to the New Testament, vinegar was offered to Jesus while he was hanging on the cross — an action generally regarded as a continuation of his torture, but which some say may actually have been merciful.

Is there any truth to the notion that you can you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

According to Christopher Null, who did an experiment to see if this is true, the definitive answer is NO.

Null had been dealing with a plague of fruit flies, so he turned to traditional methods to get rid of them. Reflecting on the old adage that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, he decided to do an experiment to see if it was true.

To test the old proverb, he put out two soda bottles, one with a small amount of honey and one with some red wine vinegar. He left them next to each other for two weeks.

He reported that the results were indisputable: Vinegar catches far more flies than honey. In fact, he said, honey doesn’t catch any flies at all. The vinegar bottle had about 15 flies in it. The honey bottle, none. He didn ‘t see one fly go into the honey bottle, but they loved the vinegar.

I don’t know if this experiment has been replicated or tested using different kinds of flies, but certainly this was far too small a sample to generalize to all types of flies.

What has this to do with torture? I think there may be a remote connection. When it comes to trying to extract information from a prisoner, some of the discussants on this board have suggested that an attempt to win the confidence of a prisoner through kindness (honey) may help induce a prisoner to talk, whereas, physical punishment (vinegar) may heighten resistance and be ineffective. Null’s experiment may suggest otherwise. I hope this is not seen as a pro-torture argument.

This may be a discussion of borderline relevance to the topic of torture, but well, I had fun with it.

Pat Racimora

Intriguing hypothesis, Don X. I’d like to see that experiment replicated though.

Don X

Do those of you who like 24 also like Dexter?

http://firefox AnnieCollier

I haven’t watched “24″ but I’m a huge fan of “Dexter”. Dexter does have his “code” and he doesn’t torture longer than it takes to confront his perpetrator with the pictures of the people he’s killed. Then he just disposes of them. He even knocks them out with a drug before they are made to confront their crimes. I suppose the thrill is from vicarious revenge.

Such a well written series. I suppose “24″ is as well to have so many fans.

How the heck will Dexter escape The Skinner next Sunday night? He will because there’s a next season but it’s a gripper.

Linda Mac

I confess to never having seen “24-Hours” so I don’t know about the program. I do know, however, that information that comes a person who is tortured is NOT reliable in any way. Unfortunately, it may also condition the torturer to enjoy e feeling of power over the human beings/animals/whatever they are torturin. I do believe that every action, word, or thought comes back to the individual just like a rubber band so I don’t think one can torture and get away with it forever.

Thank you for this, another, thought-provoking cartoon. It is excellent.
Linda Mac

Please excuse my spelling. I have an injured finger and I keep missing some of the letters…..;-)
Touchet

And the propaganda begins on why we should give 80 billion a year and send our troops to africa.
Gut

Physical torture does not work period! There is almost no value in it.

Look at the example of “Curveball” and a lot of the BS intelligence that came out of Gitmo.

We cannot trust what the Indians are saying about the Mumbai attacker about Pakistan being involved. If he said these things under torture, he may just be saying what the Pakistanis want to hear.

There are a number of pecularities about the Mumbai attacks that suggest some local Indian groups may have been involved.

Tactics used in Mumbai are similar to the indigenous communist Naxalite insurgency of India’s poorest regions while the dock where the terrorists landed is one controlled by the D-Company criminal organisation and has been used to smuggle arms into Mumbai in the past.

A lot of cross-current, so hard to rely just on the confessions of a likely tortured captured Mumbai attacker.
Murray

Slightly OT – The first seasons of 24, Chloe was amazing. This last season, they painted her up and put her in heels and she just looked awful. I hope she isn’t gone for good.