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What Will Barack Do About Terrorist Targets in Other Countries?

One of the first policy battles in the new administration of Barack Obama will be what to do about suspected terrorist targets that are inside the sovereign territory of another country? I cannot tell you what the Bush policy is because it is classified. But let’s consider the logical possibilities:

Option 1–Do nothing, it is a sovereign country and is responsible for what happens within its borders. It is not our responsibility.

Option 2–Invoke international law and our right of self-defense and warn the country harboring the terrorists to act or else. Declare war if the country refuses to act.

Option 3–Invoke international law and our right of self-defense but conduct a clandestine military/intelligence operation against the target (is secret but not deniable).

Option 4–Invoke international law and our right of self-defense and conduct a covert military/intelligence operation against the target (note, covert actions – a legal definition for missions in which the United States government denies any role and that can be undertaken only by presidential directive and with formal Congressional notification). This could included recruiting natives of the country to conduct the operations inside the target country on their own.

We get some clues from the New York Times back in December 2005 about some of the steps the Bush Administration had taken:

Senior members of Congress said Monday that they would seek to determine whether the Pentagon had overstepped its bounds by creating new secret battlefield intelligence units within the Defense Intelligence Agency.

A senior military officer and a senior Defense Department official confirmed at a hastily called Pentagon briefing on Monday, after news reports had disclosed the existence of the expanded intelligence operations, that small teams of civilian intelligence specialists were being created to work with Special Operations forces and other troops worldwide on secret missions, including counterterrorism operations.

The officials said the teams had been formally established in the fiscal year 2005 defense budget using existing authority to replace ad hoc defense intelligence units that had been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan for more than two years.

In interviews, however, members of Congress from both parties questioned whether the secret missions being carried out by the units might amount to covert actions – a legal definition for missions in which the United States government denies any role and that can be undertaken only by presidential directive and with formal Congressional notification.

We also know from news reports that there have been military attacks inside Pakistan in the North West Frontier Provinces against suspected terrorists. While there is suspicions about who carried those out it is not surprising that the United States is considered a chief suspect.

Let’s agree on this point–if the United States had successfully used military force against a prominent terrorist target (e.g., Bin Laden) we would probably hear about it. Remember Zarqawi in Iraq? The U.S. took credit for that blow (and Zarqawi certainly deserved getting bombed). The reality is that it is very hard to find effective opportunities to use military force against terrorist targets. If it was easy don’t you think the Bush Administration would have used such an option more commonly and to greater effect?

Here are some of the problems confronting the Obama Administration in cobbling together a new policy. There are only a couple of completely non-functioning nations in the world–Somalia and maybe Sudan. Going militarily into a so-called “non-functioning” nation is not easy. Again, let’s use the Bush Administration as a benchmark. If there were viable targets I don’t doubt for a minute the Bushies would have taken them out. Do you?

Then there is the Pakistan problem. Here again, there are not that many countries who are harboring or protecting terrorist groups and use such groups as an element of their foreign policy. For starters the official Pakistani position is to eschew terrorism. Unfortunately there are pockets in the Pakistani government (I call them rogue elements) that support and encourage terrorism. If we launch a full out military strike in Pakistan we run the risk of emboldening the hand of the extremists and isolating those who support us. We are then likely to be confronted with a full scale military action. This leads to a more critical question–are we willing to go to war against a country that has nuclear weapons?

If you think the answer to that is easy then you have no business being anywhere near the decision making process.

I know this much for certain–there are individuals in this world who want to attack U.S. citizens and infrastructure but lack the personnel, resources, and access to do so easily. If that were not the case we would be seeing attacks on us on a daily basis. It is important that we dedicate resources to locate and neutralize those individuals without creating new, more vicious enemies for ourselves. These individuals–i.e. the terrorists–are not in locations easy to identify or to hit with military force. If there were easy to identify or hit we would have done so.

I would hope that the Obama administration takes a thoughtful, measured approach to this problem. Use military force where we can, minimize our public chest thumping and threats, and be quietly but deadly effective. We will know in about three months where the Obama team is headed.

  • Strawberrybitch

    What…you mean bombing the everliving crap out of whole populations just because one douchebag is hiding out among them doesn’t work? Whodda thunk?

  • HARP

    I agree with you Larry. We should speak softly and kick them in the cojones when we can.

    • J.J. (The Puma)

      Thank you for your “QUOTE” of Teddy Roosevelt, updated to the 21st Century so that we can comprehend it.

  • elmer fudd

    Whatever happened to the notion that ‘money will buy anything?’ With a candy store as big as that at Langley, even this old country boy has trouble with the idea that the ‘powers that be’ are in the dark. With all the high tech ‘spy in the sky’ info, as well as the cloak and dagger dudes, how can we be so far behind the eight ball? And, the last time I looked there were a variety of black bag type operatives with the necessary stones to jump into the maw of hell if given the word. So why is there such a checkmate? Given that we were on top of the game for so long, is it management, or just the retrenchment that came with all the oversight? I’m baffled. A few terrorists here and a few there and we could have our own style of fear from above going into the hearts and minds of those who don’t like us. Or, is this dime store novel stuff created by novelists to make the child in us dream of soft pillows and candy canes? Have we indeed lost our way and need to find a little grit in our craw before kneeling to mecca?

  • Bettie

    What about going after the money people?

    For instance, the state department has classifed Iran as a terrorist state, funding Hezbollah’s attacks v Israel, and others.

    What if the moeny is coming from Russia, Russia complicit, using Hezbollah as a proxy?

    Then what?

    (A hypothetical only).

    Isn’t the first step indentyfying the true culprits, the head of the networks, so to speak?

    I’m just not sure there is a simple military solution, here, the military cannot act without a whip smart intellectual strategy backing it, the military must not be drawn into endless conflicts, breaking it, and the US economy. If I’m a terrorist, a really stupid terrorist, I think “I will blow up a civilan target because I think I have nothing to lose, I see it as a simple operation of terror and surprise.” But if I know in doing so the US understands how I’m acting, I have to suddenly consider how I’m being gamed, and play defense, in addition. What are the consequences, to me, to the country which hosts me, for my actions?” They suddenly find themselves is war, a costly war, at that, putting them in the same position they were trying to impose upon the US.

    (Off the top of my head, kind of brain storming here, sorry).

    Sticking with the Russian example,( and working off of Steve Levine’s book about Putin), it would almost seem as if Russia is simply a mafia state. If this mafia state is supplying terrorists, what happens if I can disable it, peacefully?

    How will this affect the future of terrorism, for the long run, in conjunction with the Middle East, and the US economy?

    It’s asymmetric war, involving the poltiical, the economic, and military, it’s world wide, and the combined factors are enormous.

    • Ellen D

      I think the recent interview with the biggest shareholder of the biggest bailout bank (Citibank), revealing that he is a Saudi prince demonstrates that our banks are not likely to be instruments of US policy, or perhaps even obey U.S. laws regarding funding terrorism.

      In my field, Autodesk, owner of just about every commercial 3D software in the U.S., and perhaps the world, just bought the last biggest holdout – SoftImage in Canada. Gosh, how could this monopoly happen under U.S. law?
      Autodesk’s Canadian company bought Softimage in Canada. Canada doesn’t have anti-trust. Canada doesn’t even have an SEC.

      Globalization – another word for the Wild West.

      So by all means (literally) do what you have to do to get the terrorists. I think our model has to be the Israelis who know they can’t count on anyone but themselves.

  • http://www.patriotroom.com Bill Dupray

    Barone’s Lesson From Georgia: Without Obama On The Ticket, Dems May Have Trouble in 2010

    http://patriotroom.com/barones-lesson-from-georgia-without-obama-on-the-ticket-dems-may-have-trouble-in-2010/

    • Gut

      What does this have to do with this discussion?

  • wodiej

    I think their money supply needs to be cut off for one. No sanctions and we need to become energy independent. Hit them where it hurts. It’s like Sarah Palin said, we are energy dependent on countries that hate us and want to destroy us.

    I have great empathy for the innocent people in these countries. But how did the United States of America become free and democratic? Because our ancestors stood up and fought for it and we continue to do so. Freedom isn’t free. The US surely can think of some innovative ways to empower and help these people stand up for themselves. If they don’t do it themselves, things will never truly change no matter how many bombs we drop on them.

    • Baba Rum Raisin

      But we are not the only country which buys Middle East oil. Western Europe and Japan get much of their petroleum from the Gulf.

      So, how do we stop Iran’s income stream, short of blockading the Gulf? That would stir up quite a hornet’s nest in the other Western democracies.

      This is not an, “open a lock – close a lock” problem, rather high-stakes, Varsity Whack-a-Mole.

      Stop watching John Wayne movies and thinking, “WE got the BOMB!” and smell the subtleties.

      • JIB

        So, how do we stop Iran’s income stream, short of blockading the Gulf? That would stir up quite a hornet’s nest in the other Western democracies.

        I wonder how it is to do business with Iran, nowadays?

        If it’s government becomes unstable due to economic factors, the support of terrorism and a lack of innovation eventually breaking it, no matter how much oil, their abilty to support terrorism will lessen.

        And hopefully, the people, or the PTB will allow more moderate governments to succeed.

        It took 60 years to fight the cold war, peacefully, such as it was, perhaps the same methodolgy can be applied to the governments which support terrorism, while also trying to limit violence.

        And when we’re speaking of limiting violnce, 9.11 could have been prevented with another president, IMO, so, perhaps if intelligence is availbale, we need to examine why attacks still occur.

        If we truly want to stop it, that is…

        We’re kind of seeing this now, in the US, the economy perhaps being a factor in ending Iraq, early, due to a lack of abilty to simple PAY for it.

        • Baba Rum Raisin

          Money has no politics.

          The Nazis rose, on a small part, upon the disclosure that Krupp paid Armstrong/Vickers (I forgot which) a licensing fee on every shell produced under Armstrong’s patents during WWI.

          Pissed ‘em off in the German Street, yes sir!

  • Strawberrybitch

    OOPS. My comment just got eaten…um…did I accidently trip a few security wires? I thought since the info was readily available on Reuters and the web it would be OK to post here. Um. Ok Sorry Larry. I thought for sure you guys already had that info.

    • Bettie

      For some strange reason, posts will get kicked to the spam file, here, though it’s not deliberate.

      Email Susan, and she can repost your comment.

      • Strawberrybitch

        Thanks Bettie.

    • Galt Pizza Parlor

      If you tried to post a raw link (h t t p://etc.etc.) it is more likely to trip the spam filter. If you make links like this link it should post fine. Instructions on how to post a link as the example above:

      <a href=”http://www.noquarterusa.net”>this link</a>

      You have to follow the example exactly for a link to work.

      • Strawberrybitch

        Thanks Galt. I didn’t post any links just info. But maybe I should keep my trap shut. Our guys are having a tough enough time tracking down the nut jobs without a board housewife tripping them up.

        • Strawberrybitch

          Yikes…that should read bored…I really need to learn to proof read.

          • JIB

            Or you could have written “broad,” without some old broad tripping them up.

            As the old guys aren’t having much success, at all, you probably have a solution, whereas they don’t.

            • Strawberrybitch

              It’s amazing what you trip over on the web.

              • JIB

                Were you able to repost your comment?

                I’d like to read it.

  • William L. Donlon

    What will Barack Obama do if Israel takes out Iran’s Nuclear Plants on it’s own??

    From The Jerusalem Post:

    JPost.com » Iran news » Article
    Dec 4, 2008 0:40 | Updated Dec 4, 2008 16:30

    The IDF is drawing up options for a strike on Iranian nuclear facilities that do not include coordination with the United States, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

    Slideshow: Pictures of the week

    While its preference is to coordinate with the US, defense officials have said Israel is preparing a wide range of options for such an operation.

    “It is always better to coordinate,” one top Defense Ministry official explained last week. “But we are also preparing options that do not include coordination.”

    Israeli officials have said it would be difficult, but not impossible, to launch a strike against Iran without receiving codes from the US Air Force, which controls Iraqi airspace. Israel also asked for the codes in 1991 during the First Gulf War, but the US refused.

    • Baba Rum Raisin

      >>> What will Barack Obama do if Israel takes out Iran’s Nuclear Plants on it’s own??

      Nothing. Same thing we did when Israel whacked Saddam’s nuke center in the 80′s (Osirak?).

      Only thing keeping them from it is aerial refueling support. We have it, they don’t and out-and-back (Israel-Iran-Israel) is beyond the unrefueled range of the IDF hardware.

    • S. Markom

      They have been drawing up plans for quite some time and believe they have had them.

      I think this is a message to Obama to treat this problem with immediacy and decisiveness.

      If Obama does not then they will take matters into their own hands because they will have no choice. If Iran does not use it directly they will definitely use it indirectly through terrorist organizations to keep their hands clean.

  • Gut

    The problem is can you pre-emptively attack someone when they have not yet actually done anything?

    If you do, based on their rheoric that opens up a slippery slope. A bit like the movie Minority Report.

    If they do not have the resources, but the intent is that enough?

    Or instead of attacking them can you convince them not to attack us? ie. why do they want to attack us in the first place?

    • William L. Donlon

      GUT:

      Good point and that is Barack’s dilemma.

      Iran makes no secret that it intends to “Wipe Israel off the face of the Earth”.

      Should Israel wait??

      Should the Jews of Europe have waited in 1932 to see if Hitler was just kidding?

      Who is supplying the weapons to the Terrorists located just across Iran’s border in neighboring Pakistan, that were used to kill Jews in Mumbai??

      “Never Again!” is an absolute in Israel that every Jew in the World understands.

      Barack bid the Job, now he has to do it.

      I for one, don’t envy him, but as an American, I wish him well.

      He needs our prayers.

      • JIB

        You know how a bratty kid likes to draw people into conflict?

        (Maybe you were’t blessed with such a friend, or family member, lucky you…)

        Anyway, that is sort of how the terrorists plays, off his personal psychological melodramas. (This, as opposed to specific rational military strategy –no matter how many manifestos he writes).

        We all act off our psyches, to an extent, but what makes someone turn to murdering civilians?

        There is no dealing with them, they’re nuts, they WANT the conflict, they want the drama, they want to manipulate.

        As there is no negotiating, they have to be defeated another way, without breaking the US, as that’s the terrorist’s intent.

        A terrorist engages in psychological warfare, an act of terrorism is an act of psychological warfare, all histrionic personalities behave in this manner, do, so how do we handle it?

        Well, he still needs to eat — but there is no simple solution, if there were, the shock and awe of Iraq would have been effective, instead to bogged us down, breaking our economy, and military.

        Establishing a team of firefighters doesn’t work either, the terrorist knows he can control US reaction, say, a bombing in India throwing the US into chaos, in his mind creating fear, and an overreaction. He wants the US to react militarily, he wants to throw the markets into chaos, et al…

        But outsmarting the terrorist through superior intellect, that’s something they can’t crack.

        As they terrorist seeks to impose chaos, leading to both societal and economic destruction, leading to fear, the best way to defeat him, initially, is by establishing order.

        The best way to do that is through upholding the Constitution, defending freedom within the law.

        Cheney’s reaction was the absolute worst thing the US could have done, that is specifically what an Obama, or a Putin, even, wants — by destroying American freedom, American culture, America LAW, you break the economy, weakening the country significantly.

        A frightened people don’t produce, a frightened people fail to thrive — look at the USSR, look at Iran, why don’t they thrive like the US, like England, and Europe?

        Mostly, it’s their form of government, the inabilty to dissent.

        Countries like Russia and Iran never develop an economy, therefore can never really rival the US, when they try, they can only compete by attempting to weaken the US, and its’ ability to innovate, growing it’s economy, etal.

        And that’s the goal, for them.

      • JIB

        Do you think it’s a little more complex than Israel bombing Iran?

        • JIB

          Meaning, the goal of the terrorist is to draw the larger population into chaos, the best way to handle it, IMO, is not to bite.

          • William L. Donlon

            JIB:

            Speaking as an American I would agree with you.

            But Israel lives in a much tougher neighborhood and it has to “walk the walk” to get respect.

            HAMAS broke a “truce” that had been in place since June of this year.

            What is Israel to make of that?

            It broke that truce by firing rockets (that’s with an S) from Gaza.

            They broke the truce one hour after Obama was declared the winner over McCain.

            What is Israel to make of that?

            Since election day, Nov. 4th, Hamas has fired an average of thirty two rockets into Israel from Gaza.

            Since the start of the “Election Day Blitz”,
            Barack Obama hasn’t uttered a single word about it.

            What is Israel to make of that?

            Who is supplying these rockets to Hamas, who is supposed to be so poor it can not feed the people they were elected to govern.

            Most of the Duds fired into Israel have made in Iran all over them.

            What is Israel to make of that.

            WAIT? For What?
            For Iran to go Nuclear?
            And then what?

            I wouldn’t!

            How will Barack react if Israel doesn’t wait?

            Where has that Obama diplomacy been during the Election Day Rocket Blitz that has been going on for over a Month now.

            Israel has enough Iranian Provocation to push the GO BUTTON.

            And then what, Barack?

            • JIB

              It is a war, people die, though, and it would appear continued armed warfare isn’t the answer.

              And if the goal is to bait Israel, like the US, into a military action, with the idea of bleeding it and it’s economy dry to bring about it’s collapse, over a period of years, shouldn’t Israel find another way to disarm Iran, and the people who fund them?

              Otherwise, all actions simply lead to greater destruction.

              I say this as an observation, jut throwing out ideas…

              • JIB

                just, sorry.

              • William L. Donlon

                JLB:

                As an American, I agree with you.

                As an American I have that “luxury” provided by geographic location and a strong Military.

                Israel, having no such advantages, can’t afford to get it wrong.

                Knowing that, Why is Obama and the Western Press ignoring the daily rocket blitz of Israel by Hamas/Iran??

                How much longer can Israel afford to wait?

                I agree with you that If Israel go’s after Iran’s Nuclear capability alone, it will have Regional and World Wide implications.

                This is a very real threat to world peace that is growing every day.

                The compression of time, as each day goes by between now and Obama’s Inauguration, increases the odds that Israel will act.

                That article in today’s Jerusalem Post should sound like a fire bell in the night.

                It is saying to the World Community “Step up or forever hold your peace”

                There is a time to “talk the talk” and a time to “walk the walk”.

                If history teaches us anything it is,

                Israel knows the difference.

                Time is running out,

                Where is Obama??

                • JIB

                  If, say, Russia is reposnsible for financing those daily rocket attacks, and intends to continue them, no matter how many bomb we send, what should we do?

                  We have a Pentagon, under Cheney, unable to comprehend how it is being gamed, full up with the stupidest under the sun.

                  So, what’s the answer, send more troops, and bog ourselves down, even further?

                  But, say, now, oil has fallen affecting Russia and Iran’s abilty to finance itself.

                  In addition, say the US no longer responds to every little provacation, instead choosing to game in another way, forcing Russia and Iran into a position where it expends money supporting terrorism, with no return, ie, the US doesn’t respond as expected, frees it’s economy, and starts innovating again, in effect breaking their economies, much like Osama said he would do to ours.

                  See how the military is connected to the economic in an asymmetric war?

                • csuzeq

                  Obama says “One President at a time” whenever he doesn’t want to deal with an issue. I wonder if he’ll continue to say that after 1/20/09? He just might, unless he chooses a scapegoat from his own administration.

            • Andy

              William D. : indeed and who is arming Hezbollah in Lebanon in plain sight of the “international forces” stationed in South Lebanon?

          • Gut

            If Isreal or the U.S. ever were to attack Iran, it would help the hardliners, as the people would unite behind them. It would keep the hardliners in power much longer.

            Iran reached out to the U.S. just before the Iraq war and after 9-11. All they wanted was a security agreement that they would not be attacked by the U.S. That moment was a golden opportunity to turn them away from nuclear weapons, but the Bush adminstration arrogantly shut them down. Its effect was it drove the moderates out and the hardliners in. Iran actually helped the U.S. right after 9-11 with Afghanistan, the Taliban and al qaeda.

            See:

            http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=71651&sectionid=351020101&CFID=13314172&CFTOKEN=42042357

            http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/07/world/main4508360.shtml

            http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/12/iran_event.html

            • Baba Rum Raisin

              Well, a lot of Gringoes still has The Red Ass from the Embassy/Hostage fandango/fiasco, making any sort of rapproachment with the Persians problematic on a domestic PR front.

      • pm317

        Who is supplying the weapons to the Terrorists located just across Iran’s border in neighboring Pakistan, that were used to kill Jews in Mumbai??

        They have evidence of Pakistani manufacturers and military sources for the weapons found in Mumbai.

        • William L. Donlon

          PM:

          They have evidence of Pakistani manufactures and military sources for “some of” the weapons found in Mumbai.

          Made in Iran has been found on weapons after terrorist’s attacks in Iraq, India, Afghanistan, Gaza, The West Bank, Lebanon, and on the “duds” in Israel.

          Iran has been playing a dangerous game with it’s neighbors for a very long time.

          Now it wants the World Community to “trust it with nuclear weapons”.

          Israel is cant’ afford to get this one wrong.

          THIS IS THE FIRST TEST OF THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY.

          Why has Obama remained mute about Hamas/Iran breaking the June truce??

          Why did Hamas/Iran choose the election of Obama as the date to break that truce??

          The “Election Day Blitz” has rained rockets down on Israel for thirty consecutive days now.

          Why is Obama ignoring this unprovoked assult on a U.S. Ally.

          Why is the “Western Media” ignoring this daily attack on the Jewish State Of Israel??

          How much longer does the World Community and Obama expect Israel to wait.

          Silence or voting “present” is not leadership.

          The Inaction of the frighten mouse in the face of a growing cobra menace, usually turns out badly for the frightened mouse.

          Fight or Flight are the options.

          Israel has no place to run to, so no one, especially Obama, has any right to be “surprised” when Israel strikes back at Iran and Hamas.

          Again– THIS IS HAMAS AND IRAN’S FIRST TEST OF THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY!

          So far he has voted “present”!

          • TeakWoodKite

            We will know in about three months where the Obama team is headed.

            As it should be said of late. “stay tuned”.

      • Gut

        I am not so sure the Ahmadinejad ever said that he wanted to wipe Israel off the map. That seems to be a very big myth that has been played up by the media and politicans.

        Check out this link.

        http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

        http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=9371

        It is also not clear who was responsible for the Mumbai attacks. The Indians are saying, based on a confession from the captured attacker, who was probably tortured, that Pakistan was responsible. It serves the military and political Indian establishment to blame it on Pakistan. That may be the case, but there may also be domestic Indian groups that are involved, as there are a lot of pecularities regarding the attack that point to local involvement.

        • Andy

          Oh, please Gut;

          I am not so sure the Ahmadinejad ever said that he wanted to wipe Israel off the map. That seems to be a very big myth that has been played up by the media and politicans.

          No, it is NO myth. This is some complete stupid bull sh** invented by Juan Cole of what Ahmadinejad really said. It is utterly nonsense and Ahmadinejad DID make that comment about wipping Israel off the map. Everyone with any credibility overrule Juan Cole’s “reinterpretation.”

          Juan Cole is a terrorism apologist:

          Terrorism, he explains (after comparing several countries in the region), is the result of foreign occupation in combination with weak states.

          C’m on…

          • Gut

            Who is talking about Juan Cole? Check out the links. People were questioning this myth long before Juan Cole got involved. And frankly Juan Cole has a lot more to say about middle east issues that just about anyone in American, the guy actually speaks the language and gets the local info, knowledge and vibe. Most people that look at these issue don’t even speak the language.

            Why are you so sure that Iran ever said they wanted to wipe Israel off the map. Where are the direct quotes where anyone of substance from Iran says this??

            I give you some creditable links explaining what was and what was not said. Where are your links that are not just press regurgitations that prove that that is what Iran said?

            • Andy

              What your links are “the authoritative source”…?

              Uhm… you are playing with shades of semantics which mean the same. And it has been mainly Juan Cole and MEMRI that started the stupid contorsions about what did he mean…”exactly”. And BEFORE the western media wrote about this, the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting Network, which is owned by the government of Iran, put up an article up at the time entitled “Ahmadinejad: Israel must be wiped off the map,” which began: “Tehran, Oct 26 – Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Wednesday called for Israel to be “wiped off the map”.”

              If the translation “wiped off the map” is good enough for Iran’s government-owned news agency….

              Besides what’s your point????

              Ahmadinejad hasn’t made enough not inflamatory enough ??

              If you want to be an Ahamadinejad apologist go ahead.

              • Palin

                Ahamadinejad has no power! He is just a buffon like Bush. Who cares what he says?

                The world is just going to have to live with Iran having nukes. It is there right like every other country on the planet that has them. It is no reason to go to war with the rest of the Muslim world that we are already at war with.

        • Baba Rum Raisin

          NPS had a speaker on today who fingered Daoud Ibrahim as the chief Enabler/Shit Disturber in the Mumbai attacks.

          Could also just be a way of reinforcing his status as India’s Emmanuel Goldstein, too.

      • Gut

        I would also say that terrorists quite often use the threat of violence or violence itself to draw the U.S. into a violent reaction. One could argue that that was precisely what Bin Laden wanted to do with 9-11. The U.S. falls for it every time, and this just creates the war that the terrorist wants and stirs up much more hatred.

        We have to be very careful and wise about where to use a military response, as it often does more harm than good.

  • Tess

    This should take care of the problem: the NYT reports that Obama wants to make a speech in an Islamic capital or major site; he hasn’t figured out where yet…I’ll bet readers at NQ have some ideas?

    • Baba Rum Raisin

      Detroit?

  • pm317

    I know this much for certain–there are individuals in this world who want to attack U.S. citizens and infrastructure but lack the personnel, resources, and access to do so easily. If that were not the case we would be seeing attacks on us on a daily basis. It is important that we dedicate resources to locate and neutralize those individuals without creating new, more vicious enemies for ourselves.

    Larry, neutralizing those individuals will happen if the US does not pour billions into countries like Pakistan much of which ends up with their military and the terrorist organizations they support to cause problems for countries like India. We may be safe with a buffer called the Atlantic ocean but countries surrounding them will suffer because of the money US pours in there.

  • http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/ Not Your sweetie
  • fighting back

    What will Barack Obama do about Terrorist targets in other countries? Good question. My bet is that he will GIVE A SPEECH!

  • S. Markom

    This leads to a more critical question–are we willing to go to war against a country that has nuclear weapons?

    Using Iraq as a recent example of invading a country the answer has to start at “no” – and they did not have nuclear weapons. I would start at “no” until there are no other solutions and then only with indisputable intelligence and a comprehensive strategy to win and quickly.

    The big difference of course with Pakistan is that we have a generally friendly central government and our presence could de-stablize that government in favor of the enemy.

    While I am very comfortable with Clinton/Gates/Jones/Biden making the recommendations ultimately it is the guy who never ran a lemonade stand making the call.

  • Philip Henika

    “Benny” yesterday suggested that the Bush Doctrine (provocative and preemptive) and Nixon Doctrine (retraction and do nothing) represent two extremes. Perhaps, for starters, the US, India and Pakistan might try to avoid actions that coincide and support the motivations of the terrorists. It is counterproductive at this time, IMO, for the US to claim that it had warned India of the Mumbai attacks and that LeT Pakistan is linked. Increased tensions between India and Pakistan would appear to be favored by this info. On the other hand Rice’s point is, IMO, valid i.e. Pakistan is responsible for cooperative investigation with India even if Pakistan designates the perpetrators as nonstate actors. Perhaps this is the midground that “Benny” suggested yesterday. After the investigation comes the ‘lessons learned’ counterterrorism policy. Here is where 8 eight years of Bush Doctrine has put the US behind in this area because Bush Administration has served only the military option re: counterterrorism measure. Pakistan and India might well cooperate with neighboring nations in lieu of ASEAN’s efforts re: counterterrorism precedents and practices which include both miitary and peacebuilding. The US is here on paper only – Stability Operations FM 3-07.

  • Andy

    LJ:

    How does Iran and its role enter in here? I’d think it is a crucial component in the whole problem.

    I would be interested in your insight as to what are the realistic and best avenues to deal w/Iran.

    Thanks.

  • TeakWoodKite

    be quietly but deadly effective.

    Ninja.

    • Andy

      LOL TeakWK!!

  • pm317

    A random thought occurred to me. What if instead of a speech Obama sits down with these terrorist groups (you know how he wants to talk to all these people without conditions) and gets them to call a truce, a ceasefire on all violence for a year or two so that governments in conflict over various problems could actually sit down and resolve them. Once they are resolved of course, the terrorists are unemployed. India has always said it would have bilateral talks with Pakistan, if Pakistan stops all cross-border insurgence and terrorist activities. I don’t see how India can sit at the table with Pakistan if Pakistan continues to support and aid terrorism. Wouldn’t that be a version of blackmail, appeasing the terrorists, and so on and a bad precedent for everybody? So what do you all think of a ceasefire with the terrorist groups initiated by our Messiah?

    • JIB

      A random thought occurred to me. What if instead of a speech Obama sits down with these terrorist groups (you know how he wants to talk to all these people without conditions) and gets them to call a truce, a ceasefire on all violence for a year or two so that governments in conflict over various problems could actually sit down and resolve them

      Problem is, though, terrorism is a war of psychology, (beware the “terrorist” with a 1963 CIA how to manuel — but I digress).

      Meaning, most likely, they might comply up front, but their word means sh*t, as it’s to their advantage, (in their heads, anyway) to set up an agreement, play it, and then violate it, like Kim of N Korea does, or Iran does, in terms of inspectors, and it’s nuclear program — kind of like a bait and switch. But this doesn’t work in the end, it’ s an amateur form of war. Cheney kind of did the same thing, he would promise something, say, in regard to outlawing torture, fully intending to never comply with Congressional demands. Remember? After awhile though, this technique backfires on the terrorist, once his methods are understood he isolates himself, as no one will deal with him.

      OTOH, it can never ever really hurt to talk, and the right guy, (and I still like Holbrooke myself, with a few reservations), can do wonders.

      It is what differentiates a Clinton, or a Holbrooke from a Bolton.

      • pm317

        What you say takes away the argument of terrorist sympathizers who say, these are freedom fighters, they are the voice of the people who are powerless and don’t have representation for their grievance. So these terrorist groups are not interested in getting Palestinians their land or Pakistanis their Kashmir. They are there to terrorize. But the question is the states who sponsor them and aid and support them are also waging a psychological war and are not interested in resolving conflicts. For instance, if Pakistan gets rid of their groups and somehow resolves their dispute with India, they won’t get all those billions from the US? They have to work hard and build a healthy economy. How can a consensus be built among some of the countries to recognize the bad apples for what they are all the while giving up their own geopolitical and economic goals and do the right thing which is to make these groups and the states who sponsor them ineffective.

        • JIB

          I think, unfortunately, it comes down to those bad apples being let to collapse, destroying themselves, while limiting the damage.

          We can’t force governments to comply, as much as we would like to, it is ultimately up to them, as JFK said, to determine their own fate, to WANT freedom — we can’t think for them.

          So, it’s a matter of taking advantage of their mistakes, our defense becoming a sort of offense in reaction to the terrorist attempts to cause chaos, i.e. we only have to engage ACTIVELY when they threaten, and not necessarily reactive, but prepared, i.e. we don’t suspend the Constitution, we don’t open concentration camps, we continue to innovate and grow, culturally, and economically, despite any threats.

          (As for limiting attacks, again, we might have had a different outcome on 9.11 if Bush had acted; he had the intelligence, same with India, perhaps).

          It’s how we won the cold war; governments constantly engaged in waging war will not survive.

          (And in retrospect, what WAS the cold war, really, HOW was it won, and why, how was the aggression of Eastern Europe kept in check?)

          And though Israel will be susceptible to attacks, it will be interesting to see the difference a Holbrooke and a Clinton will make, in the new equation. Unfortunately, first thing I would look for is an increase in terror attacks, if only to gage Obama’s reaction.

          And I’m very uncomfortable with guys like Zbig, and others on Obama’s staff who have exhibited very short sighted tendencies in regard to Israel, placing blame, the situation is very complex.

          And you’re right; no one who murders civilians is fighting for freedom, whether it’s the IRA, or Al Qaeda.

          And as an example, say, and this is hypothetical, say Russia financed and helped plan this attack in India.

          Now that the “terror” is over, now what?

          Rather than Russia causing world wide instability, the “ping back” has further isolated Russia, the world understanding this is Russia’s work. Now Europe, say, is less willing to deal with Russian oil as Russia is isolating itself, defining itself as an unstable, terrorist state.

          And no matter the sanctions, if Russia doesn’t straighten up, it will cause further instability within its own government, alienating the outside world it needs to survive, much less thrive. At a certain point it will no longer be cost effective for Europe, or K Street to do business with the Kremlin.

          Hypothetical, of course.

          So instead of 60 years to collapse, this new entity under Putin goes in 25- 30 years, if even.

          • pm317

            I agree with a lot of what you say. However, countries like Pakistan (instead of Russia in your example), will not collapse that easily even in isolation but certainly not in having a country like the US subsidize it by pouring billions. It only takes the military and a few rich Punjabis at the top to keep it going and make the rest of the population weaker and weaker. There is not going to be a revolution by the people because they are too weak and military will take care of it. The military will also blackmail other countries with either terror or nukes and survive. Unlike Russia, it has a favorable history with rich countries like the US.

            • JIB

              I would look at the interrelationships between the countries, say, Russia, the US, and arms dealers, and how that affects terrorism in Pakistan.

              I would think immediately of someone like Nadhmi Auchi, Obama’s money guy, and his work with Saddam, the Pentagon accusing him of money laundering, and arms trading. He is a criminal, convicted, and his influence reaches the White House, and 10 Downing, in Britain.

              You are spot on about the US pouring billions in, I would imagine the fraud here, and in Pakistan, is, in part, what drives terrorism worldwide.

              And how do you stop it when the President elect of the US takes money from someone accused of arms dealing?

              Secondly, I would not assume a military or intelligence parity between the US, and any other country, which is a good thing, if the people at the very top are not corrupt.

              And I would look at the fight against terrorism as more of a cold war type effort, with tweaks, one that might take decades, but one based on intelligence, rather than guns.

              If someone were to ask me, if for instance, I were setting up a counter terroist operation, whom I would turn to first, it would be the cold warriors.

              And then I would try to describe spaghetti in a bowl, and how the different strands interrelate, as metaphor for the factors feeding terrorism, world wide. IMO, no one episode can be looked at as an isolated incident.

              But that’s just me, YMMV.

              • pm317

                I agree with you that it is spaghetti in a bowl with a little bit tomato suace blood thrown in there for collateral damage. Boy, if we could parameterize all this we could perhaps build a model using game theory or some such thing. Maybe that is what these conflict management type people do.

                What is YMMV?

                • Baba Rum Raisin

                  Your Mileage May Vary.”

                  • JIB

                    Right, these are just suggestions, brain-storming.

                    And conflict management is right, unfortunately, not every manager is competent.

    • http://ezinearticles.com/?Three-Basic-Parenting-Styles&id=744499 Northwest rain

      To be a facilitator at such a meeting takes professional skill as a diplomat — who knows and understands each individual — and the facilitator needs to know how to facilitate.

      Obama has NONE of these skills. The last meeting he was asked to chair (of Americans) ended up in a shouting matching and NOTHING was accomplished.

      A skilled, trained facilitator is never the center of attention — the facilitator is an expert in body language.

      Obama is a Narcissist — HE would have to be the center of attention. Some of the terrorists will have bigger egos and have an even more advanced case of Narcissism than Obama’s.

      Obama does not have the ability to think creatively, nor outside of the box. He is a performer.

  • http://ezinearticles.com/?Three-Basic-Parenting-Styles&id=744499 Northwest rain

    What will 0-sh*t do about Terrorist Targets in Other Countries?

    1. he will consult with his “advisers”.

    2. he will call in new “advisers”.

    3. he will exercise.

    4. he will take a nap.

    5. he will check to see if the problem has gone away.

    6. he will have Hillary write a position paper.

    7. he will give a speech about something other than terrorism.

    8. he will do nothing.

    Notice that Obama’s inability to make a decision will leave a void — so the question is who or what organization will fill the void and take matters into their own hands?

    Voids like this are seldom left alone — the void will be filled.

    • Palin

      More useless Obama bashing….. it is getting very old.

      • http://ezinearticles.com/?Three-Basic-Parenting-Styles&id=744499 Northwest rain

        Nope — I just changed the names — from Bush to Obama.

        Same behavior — different names.

        • Palin

          nice life to be so full of hatered all the the time….. we will have to see if Obama is as bad as Bush as you infer… he certainly would have a lot to catch up to Bush…

          If Obama can get us out of this economic mess with as little pain as possible it will be worth the price of admission alone for voting for Obama…

          he has some big mountains to climb, mountains that very few U.S. presidents have ever had to face… certainly none in the last 20 or 30 years.

    • Baba Rum Raisin

      Sometime, Do Nothing is the perfect course of action.

  • William L. Donlon

    Gut:

    If Israel attacks Iran’s Nuclear assets between now and the Inaugural,

    And–

    Obama still has not issued a statement denouncing the “Election Day Blitz against Israel.

    Obama will have no where to hide.

    Israel Knows where the Bush people stand.

    Israel would attack on Bush’s Lame Duck Watch because:

    No on knows where Obama stands on Israel

    And:

    Obam’s continued SILENCE sends a message of consent, of the Daily Rocket attacks against Israel.

    Now would be a real good time for Obama to speak up at the very, very least.

    Asking for a halt to the unprovoked attacks and a return to the June Truce.

    What’s so hard about that.

    It’s like releasing the Birth Certificate.

    Just do it!

    No Quarter is the only place this is even being discussed.

    Thanks Larry!

  • elmer fudd

    The idea that Israel wouldn’t strike Iran because they can’t refuel their jets reminds me of Dolittles’s attack on Tokyo. The planes were ditched afterward. The fliers were heroes. They ‘chuted down in a friendly area, and the deed was done. Get a grip on it. The problem is not one of logostics, but of motivation and opportunity. The question has been debated hotly in the Israeli Press for some time. Their problem is our problem, even though the old catchword plausable deniability divides the hawks from the chickens on our side of the fence. Nukes in unstable hands in the Middle East is a problem that won’t go away, no matter how hard we meditate on it. At some point, it is invetiable that they will come into play, either in the hands of the enemy or because we and/or our allies (read Israel) have taken them out. There is no stalemate in this game. It is not a wait and see proposition.

    • William L. Donlon

      Elmer:

      I agree!
      I have gone round and round with my pilot friends about this.

      There is always three ways to get any thing done:

      1. The easy way!
      2. The not so easy way!
      3. You must be out of your f–ing mind way!

      On July 4, 1976, (thirty two years ago) Israeli Commando’s stormed the airfield at Entebbe and freed the Jewish hostages.

      This was a category eight on the Oh Shit Meter, and the Israeli’s pulled it off.

      I am putting forward the case that if the Israelis decide to take out Iran’s nuclear assets, Obama must shoulder a fair share of the blame.

      Every one in Israel knows that a large chunk of that Billion $$ Obama raised in the Campaign came from Iran, Saudi Arabia, The UAR, and Kuwait.

      As reported in Newsweek, these funds were funneled through bogus names and addresses like Bo Diddly of Mt Morris New York.

      Everyone in Israel also knows that Computer rooms were set up in the Gaza strip to work the internet for Obama to turn out the vote.

      No guess, just plain vetted facts, for unlike the U.S. Media, Obama didn’t get a pass on these below board activities in the Israeli press.

      Now, on the very night that Obama wins the election, Hamas breaks the June 08 truce and starts raining “Made in Iran” rockets down on Israel.

      The “Election Day Blitz” against the Jewish State has been non stop for the last thirty days and counting, with out a word of sanction from “The Office Of The President Ellect”.

      Israel has been patient and waited for some signal from Obama, but none has been given.

      Israel can’t wait any longer, it has made it’s position Known in the Jerusalem Post this morning.

      Obama must speak out to stop the Rocket Barrage or Israel will attack Iranian Nuclear assets.

      Obama is not adverse to giving Press Conferences.

      Obama’s silence on this continues act of Iranian terrorism is nothing more than a sign of approval.

      THIS IS OBAMA’S FIRST FOREIGN POLICY CRISIS AND HE IS FAILING IT THROUGH INACTION.

      Is there anyone who knows the History of Israel that doubts it’s resolve.

      Obama is about to get a lesson, Israel does not issue idle threats.

      Israel will act!.

      • Baba Rum Raisin

        RE: Entebbe Rescue

        IDF also had an arrangement with Kenya to use the Nairobi airport to refuel on the return.

        Personally, I think the Israelis use the threat of nuking the Iranians to gain leverage on US, not the Arab Street.

        Once upon a time, they held air superiority and ground tactical advantage for 500 miles around Haifa. However, last time tanks tangled in the Sinai, they were within spitting distance of getting their butts whipped.

        If they REALLY wanted to zotz the Iranian nuclear shop, they’d simply do it.

        If they THREATEN to do “it,” then it indicates that they can’t or won’t.

        If they REALLY want to “do it,” they just Do It. No threats. No telegraphing the punch. No public
        discussion.

        • William L. Donlon

          Baba:

          Yes they refueled on their way to Entebbe thats the point.

          They are capable of working out the logistics.

          It will be a lot harder to hit Iran with out the help of the U.S, especially with electronic jamming, but they can manage.

          Just this year they struck a Nuclear facility in Syria that the North Koreans were helping to construct.

          Everyone denied it of course.

          Why the article in the Jerusalem post??

          They are telling the Obama team what they intend to do If Obama doesn’t get his “Friends” to call off the “Election Day Blitz” that has been raining “Made in Iran” rockets on Israel every day since Nov. 4th.

          Obama has been sending a signal of Silent approval of this Hamas/Iranian rocket barage on Israel.

          Make no mistake, Israel will attack.

          It can render the Nuclear sites inside Iran toxic for the next 500 years if it uses it’s tactical nuclear weapons to destroy them.

          Obama, Hammas and Iran are all playing with fire and they are about to get burned very badly.

          These things are much easier to get started than they are to stop.

          Unless Obama does something to defuse this Crisis that he, Hamas and Iran have created, the consequences will be on his head, not Bush or Israel.

      • Palin

        What is he suppose to do? He is not the president? And actually how do you know what he is doing behind the scenes? And do you really want the U.S. to get caught up more directly between India and Pakistan?

        I really do not understand your point. There is only one president. In your eyes what more could Obama be doing?

        This Obama hating is getting old. The guy is not even the President yet and you are critizing him on foreign policy. What a joke?

        • William L. Donlon

          Palin:

          What do I want Barack Obama to do?

          A little leadership would be nice.

          As President Elect, Speak out against the Rocket Barrage That Hamas/Iran commenced on election Day and have conducted every day since.

          Obama took massive amounts of money from Hamas, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the UAR.

          Hammas set up computer rooms in the Gaza strip to use the internet to help Obama get out the vote.

          That makes them Obama’s “friends and supporters”.

          His silence is fueling this crisis.

          Israel has no choice but to attack Iran to stop the unprovoked “Election Day Blitz” They are suffering daily.

          Time is running out.

          If Obama remains silent,

          Israel will act!

          This is a Crisis created by Obama’s friends and supporters, Hamas and Iran, when they broke the June 08 truce on election day.

          This is on Obama’s head not Israel or Bush’s!

  • KathyNeocon

    THIS IS OBAMA’S FIRST FOREIGN POLICY CRISIS AND HE IS FAILING IT THROUGH INACTION.

    Fasten your seatbelts because this is just the beginning. Obama’s (aka His Magnificence) goal was to become President of the United States. He scammed and sleazed his way into the White House, and that’s it. All that’s left for him is to turn the US into a socialist country. Other than that His Magnificence is checked out. He’ll leave the rest of it up to his crony cabinet. :shock:

    • Palin

      Kathy the country has enough with Necons. Why don’t you move to Russia, seems like they are more inline with your Necon thinking?

      You may also be able to get to go to a marxist/communist reprogramming gulag sooner, before as I assume you think Obama sets them up…. Ha!

    • Palin

      Kathy the country has had enough with Necons. Why don’t you move to Russia, seems like they are more inline with your Necon thinking?

      You may also be able to get to go to a marxist/communist reprogramming gulag sooner, before as I assume you think Obama sets them up…. Ha!

      • WildChild

        Had enough with NEOcons? (chuckle chuckle chuckle) Remember back in the good old days of the primary when all you BOBOweenies were screaming that Hillary is a Neocon? Clue #1: BOBO hired her.

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