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Myths of Mumbai and Other Bogus Terrorist Nonsense

(bumped up by nasuS)

Did you know that only ten guys caused the mayhem two weeks ago in Mumbai? That’s the party line and the media, for the most part, appears content to parrot this without questioning or challenging some of the logical inconsistencies. Let’s follow the chronology of the attack and do some basic math (chronology drawn from CBS, the Mirror, BBC and India Times):

Pre November 2008 Training

Ajmal Amir Kasav, said a former soldier, Abdul Rahman, known as Chacha (uncle), had trained them. “He said the first phase was hard physical training followed by three months of running up to 15 kilometres a day,” police told the Times of India. The rest included arms and ammunition training, the sources said. After the year’s training the group was sent to Mumbai for “a short internship”, when they did reconnaissance of the city. The next three months were devoted to marine training including swimming, surfing, diving and sailing.

It appears the training took place in Pakistan, probably near Karachi. Why? This was first and foremost a maritime operation. You don’t just take some guy off the street and stick him on an ocean going boat. Most folks who go out on the ocean their first time on a small boat get sea sick. The folks involved in this attack had been trained and seasoned to deal with floating on the ocean.

The so-called “internship” in Mumbai also is important to note. You must know a city in order to navigate your way from point A to point B, especially at night.

Kasav claims there were 24 trainees. That sounds right. You plan anticipating that some will drop out because they can’t meet the training objectives or become sick or are injured. What we are not told is who was doing the training. I believe there were at least 5 trainers, may be more. This does not include support staff (where did these trainees sleep, shower and eat?). I doubt they were staying at a Holiday Inn Express.

22 November

Kasav had said the group of 10 left Pakistan’s port city of Karachi in a single boat, according to the Mumbai Mirror. gunmen who attacked Mumbai set out by boat from the Pakistani port of Karachi, then later hijacked an Indian fishing trawler that carried them toward this financial capital on their suicide mission, a top police official said Tuesday. According to the account of Kasab’s interrogation, the terrorists were trained over five months in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, then had a month off before the attacks.

Kasab and the nine other terrorists, who communicated using BlackBerry mobiles, began their journey to Mumbai on a merchant vessel owned by Mumbai mobster Dawood Ibrahim. Ibrahim is on Forbes’ list of the 10 most wanted criminals and is believed to hiding out in Karachi, Pakistan.

For the sake of argument we will assume that 10 guys left Karachi. We still do not know if Kasav and his bodies went to the port in Karachi and boarded a ship at dock or if they got on small boats and traveled out of the harbor and rendezvoused with a mother ship. The mother ship probably has a crew of at least five if not more. In addition the boat is carrying assault rifles, ammunition, pistols, grenades, back packs, and two rubber zodiacs.

23 November

Once on board, each terrorist Each was given six or seven 50-bullet magazines, eight hand grenades, an AK-57 rifle and an automatic loading revolver.

Kasab told police that the group then hijacked a fishing trawler near the maritime boundary between Pakistan and India.

Four of its crew are missing while the fifth has been found dead, apparently beheaded.

On November 23, about 500km from Mumbai, the insurgents were intercepted by two coastguard officers. The group hoisted a white flag and allowed the men to board their boat.

According to Kasab, one of the militants then attacked one of the officers, slitting his throat and throwing him overboard. The other man was forced to help the group reach their destination before being executed near Mumbai.

So why do you hijack an Indian fishing vessel if you are already on a perfectly good boat? Only one reason, the boat you are on has a Pakistani flag and the boat itself probably belongs to Pakistan’s Inter Service Intelligence agency or folks linked to it.

Let’s also remember that if you hijack another boat you will need a crew for that boat as well. I believe that the original mother ship may have had at least a 10 man crew.

What are we to make of the murder of the two Indian Coast Guard? Is it likely that India patrols its coast with two man teams? What did they do with the Indian Coast Guard boat? I have not seen explanation so far (if you have, please let me know). This encounter apparently took place just off the coast near Mangrol, India.

26 November Wednesday

According to one version of Kasav’s confession, once the hijacked Indian trawler arrived just offshore from Mumbai, three speedboats came out and docked with the ship. Who was driving those boats? And why did they hook up with the trawler? Kasav also claims that the ten men on the trawler climbed into two zodiacs (rubber boats with outboard engines) and made their way to shore. They apparently made land somewhere between noon and 9 pm. The current account of the attack asks us to believe they had no contacts waiting for them on shore, no transportation lined up, and that they were just going to wing it.

Leopold Café: 9.15 pm

Five terrorists armed with AK-47 rifles barge into the cafe, which is popular with tourists, and start firing at diners and throwing grenades. Gunmen storm the Cafe Leopold and open fire on diners, causing numerous casualities.

Cama and Albless Hospital: 9:20 pm

Gunmen raid the Cama and Albless Hospital, shooting indiscriminately. One attacker is captured here.

Nariman House, Colaba: 9.20 pm

Two men on a scooter throw a grenade at a petrol station close to the Bootleggers pub, a nightspot popular with backpackers, damaging the facade but missing the pumps. They then run into the Nariman House business and residential complex. Police surround the complex, which houses the Jewish Chabad Lubavitch outreach centre. The terrorists killed six people and taking a number of hostages, thought to include a rabbi and his family.

CST Railway Station: 9.24 pm

start shooting at the ticket reservation counter of the station. A number of people are believed to have been killed and dozens wounded in this attack. The terrorists then ran out of the station. Shooting starts at the Chhatrapati Shivaji railway station when at least two gunmen storm the crowded terminal, firing indiscriminately. Many of the deaths and injuries occurred in this attack. 10.30 Firing near Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus. Suspected terrorists hijack a police jeep near Metro Cinema. Shooting starts at Chhatrapati Shivaji rail station, one of the world’s busiest, handling thousands of passengers each day.

Taj Mahal Palace Hotel: 9.30pm

At least seven gunmen enter the lobby of the Taj Mahal Palace hotel, which contans about 2000 people and staff, and begin firing. They were reportedly looking for British and American nationals and took up to 100 hostages.

A massive fire broke out at the hotel which firefighters were still battling the next morning. At least two terrorists are thought to have been killed in the hotel. Hermant Kerkare, chief of the police anti-terrorist squad was killed during the operation to retake the hotel.

Hotel Trident Oberoi: 10:20 pm

Firing near Hotel Trident – another five-star hotel – barely a kilometre away. Gunmen storm the Oberoi-Trident hotel, where about 380 people are staying.

Times of India: 10:50 pm

Gunfire reported at Times of India offices.

Vidhan Sabha, the legislative assembly: 12:10 am

Just after midnight gunman attack the Vidhan Sabha, the legislative assembly, the lower house of state legislature in India.

There is no consensus yet as far as what happened when. Check out the interactive map put up by the Guardian: (click here).

You get a different set of facts at the NY Times interactive map:

At least two cabs were used to haul the attackers to various sites in Mumbai. Someone tossed a handgrenade in each. But the numbers don’t add up:

At least two (2) shooters up north at the Cama and Albless Hospital at 9:20 pm. One of the shooters reportedly captured there.

Two (2) shooters hit the train station four minutes after the shooting starts at the hotel. Appears to be different shooters.

Two (2) shooters hit the area around the Nariman house at 9:20 pm.

Five (5) shooters hit Cafe Leopold at 9:15 pm. They move on to the Taj Mahal hotel at 9:30 pm. But witnesses claim there are seven (7) shooters at the Taj.

So we are up to at least 11 shooters and perhaps 13 and we have not yet accounted for who hit the Oberoi Hotel.

The training in marksmanship and explosives was rudimentary. No one was wearing a suicide explosive belt. As I have noted before their skill as shooters also was not great (thank God or Allah, your choice). The attackers learned the point and spray method of shooting, which is imprecise and not terribly effective. Each man had 400 bullets more or less, which sounds like a lot. But if you are firing on automatic, you will zip through a clip (they reportedly had clips aka magazines that would hold 50 bullets) in short order.

My initial impression that the Government of India and their police SWAT teams (NSG) did a good job of managing an almost impossible situation was wrong. They were overwhelmed and had a very difficult time organizing their counter response. The attackers were not terribly skilled in fighting from fixed positions inside the hotels. This was not a death blow to India by any means. It did provoke a level of rage not elicited in previous terrorist attacks.

I am still of the opinion that while the people involved in this operation had been preparing for some time, this attack was probably launched as a reaction to the recent actions of Pakistan’s President Zardari, who was vowing no first strike against India and to dismantle the political wing of the ISI. There are elements in Pakistan that do not want peace with India.

Beyond the 11 to 15 men involved in the attack, there were at least that many involved in providing logistical and training support. I believe those links certainly are based in Pakistan.

I hope we all appreciated the irony of Secretary of State Rice asking the Indians not to attack sites in Pakistan linked to the people responsible for the attacks in Mumbai. After 9-11 we had no hesitation whatsoever about hitting Afghanistan. Here we are again telling other countries not to do what we do.

On the other hand, we need to find a way to assist President Zardari who appears to be genuine in his desire to root out terrorist cells and infrastructure in Pakistan. That is a tough task that Bush Administration has failed to tackle successfully. Obama and his team have a chance to make their mark.

  • http://none maq

    1. I wonder if the American Homeland Security folk will be detailed to every Convenience Store in the United States and Canada to assess if the Pakistan clerks were sending monies to these terrorists. Funds had to come from somewhere.

    2. Not for an instant do I believe there were only ten people. How could ten people put up a firefight(s) with trained SWAT commando teams AKA blue soldiers (sic) for SIXTY HOURS.

    3. Not for another instant do I believe that ten people could hit multiple targets in a congested city. It has to take a larger team of insurgents.

  • justsomeone

    “160 NATO supply trucks torched in Pakistan” AP This story continues to be updated. Wonder if this is the work of the same group? As for your picking up on there being a “missing boat” from the Mumbai terrorist attack. What’s your theory? Where is it? Are you advising the Indian Coast Guard to patrol with a larger crew? With all the spy sattalites

  • Amalia

    Larry, you rock!

  • justsomeone

    whoops! excuse me I did it again…hit add comment rather than open a new window to search for my old friend, Miriam Webster… S A T E L L I T E S we have in the air, don’t they have replay capacity? How high do those little drones fly? Would it be feasible/cost effective to use them for shore patrol? Or would ocean winds make them uncontrollable?

  • pm317

    At least two (2) shooters up north at the Cama and Albless Hospital at 9:20 pm. One of the shooters reportedly captured there.

    Two (2) shooters hit the train station four minutes after the shooting starts at the hotel. Appears to be different shooters

    From my reading these two are the same people. In fact they were supposed to hit the CST during peak hour at 7 but could not get there. Also there is a woman eye witness from the fishing village, some Park who saw these people get on shore. She say they high fived and went by taxi from there.

    I think they found evidence accounting for 15 people on the hijacked trawler and are saying 5 went back. It is a problem for Indian govt/security to say there were more and are still unaccounted for.

  • pm317

    I don’t agree with 2. if they are throwing grenades at you and are holed up one or two on one floor at a time, how do you find them easily? It is like looking for a needle in a haystack? (maybe I am showing my ignorance here.)

  • justsomeone

    “India warns that al-quaida targeting Goa”–Yaakov Lappin Jerusalem Post

  • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

    That does not make sense. If you have two at 9:20 shooting up the hospital, and one is captured, then that means there is only one left to move on to a new target. You cannot get from the hospital to the train station and inside in four minutes. Plus there were two shooter at the train station.

    What is your evidence for assuming they are the same?

  • jwrjr

    The MSM lying about a “terrorist” attack??? Who could imagine such a thing?

  • pm317

    My reading is that they went from the train station to the hospital? It is in one of the articles on the captured terrorist confession. He said it was an unplanned attack on the hospital. I think the plan was to stick around in the train station for longer time but since they got there late, they didn’t have as much crowd and they started looking for other targets. When Kasav was captured the other guy with him was already killed. Also the ATS chief was killed by these two near the hospital and not the Taj. Let me see if I can find those articles.

  • http://baddemocrat08.wordpress.com csuzeq

    Yes, the terrorists did not get the memo that now Obama has been elected and we are all to hold hands and sing kumbayah whilst watching the prancing unicorns roam the streets paved in gold.

    Funny from Iowahawk. This guy cracks me up!

    http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2008/12/apologetic-mumbai-killers-we-didnt-get-the-memo-about-obama.html

    This one is my absolute favorite though:

    http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2008/11/obama-names-bill-clinton-to-president-post.html

    I am sorry if it seems I am making light of a horrible tradedy. I have to have some humor so as not to cry. The world is such a sad, scary place. What can we do?

  • pm317

    this article tells you they went from CST to Cama. Also their plan at CST did not well.

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/kasab-a-pakistani-mother-ship-from-karachi-mumbai-cops/393445/

    (things for over 15)
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/10-men-accounted-for-but-terror-boat-had-things-for-over-15/392658/

    (Kasab and the other guy)
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/terrorist-was-out-to-kill-on-empty-stomach/394079/

    I will try to find other articles from last week.

  • Sonic Ninja Kitty

    The Coast Guard bit is interesting. Don’t they radio in when they are pulling up to a suspicious vessel? This is right outside Mumbai, after all.

  • pm317

    They may have been duped because it was a known Indian trawler. But still you’re right, why didn’t they take precautions?

  • rolling_thunder

    I wonder if Mac was elected if this would be happening now. Or if Hillary (obliterate) Clinton was elected this wouldn’t happen. Obama being selected POTUS has brought on a market crash, a pending depression, and terrorist attacks. It’s obvious to all that he’s a marshmallow with unknown allegiances.
    GULP! We deserve a better Prez than Obama.

  • pm317

    There is no question Pakistan, ISI and the terrorist cabal they have going on there are trying to guage his reaction.

  • TeakWoodKite

    [speedboats from Mumbai]

    Who was driving those boats? And why did they hook up with the trawler?

    .

    The speed boats had the advance teams moving out.

    You train the advance team, they work as a unit, when the inbound assault team is en route, they clear out. It appears that in this case, the two teams actually crossed paths.

    These rust buckets “merchant” ships may fly several flags.

    1)Assault team from Karachi to The mother ship.
    2 Kasab told police that the group then hijacked a fishing trawler near the maritime boundary between Pakistan and India
    Was there a “seal team” on the “the mother-ship”, capable of running boarding and insertion ops?
    You would not spend months training an assault team and then expect them to assault a trawler and a Guard vessel, when that is not their mission.

    4) In the course of events, the assault on the fishing trawler and especially the Coast Guard boat, a Mayday of some sort would seem likely. Besides, Coast Guard comm’s require timed check in to base. What up with that? And on that point, what WAS the name of the Indian Coast Guard boat?
    5)Guardian,

    “4:20 Indian Navy helicopters chase ship suspected of dropping terrorists.”

    . This is not even a contest if the Indian Navy has a bead on the mother ship. So what happened? Did they sink it? like they did to another rust-bucket not but a few weeks ago?

    Why three speed boats? And more importantly, where did these boats come from and where did they go? What, if any, contraband or personnel exchanged rides?

    Thanks Mr.Johnson for the update.

  • rolling_thunder

    Obama’s statement on meet the press. Can anyone decipher this or is this just shizo speak?

    BARACK OBAMA: Well, I think what Joe meant is exactly what I described which is that if, if our entire economic policy is premised on the notion that greed is good and what’s in it for me, it turns out that that’s not good for anybody. It’s not good for the wealthy, it’s not good for the poor, and it’s not good for the vast majority in the middle.

  • TeakWoodKite

    Lucius Malfoy: You must be very brave to mention his name. Or very foolish…

    Parcel Tongue? Maybe?

  • CG

    It’s fascinating to see how quickly the timeline of these attacks has been pieced together and how efficiently LJ has analyzed the holes and misrepresentations in the story. Also interesting how easily forthcoming Kasav has been in his confession. Will Kasav provide enough additional information to lead to trainers and sponsors? How are the Indian officials interrogating him, any use of torture? Can American interrogation experts learn anything from this? What secrets are Indian government officials keeping to advance the investigation of those not killed or captured. Thanks LJ, as always I enjoy your analysis and writing, the questions to provoke continued thought. I hope HRC and BHO confer with you often.

  • EWard

    Larry

    Very good analysis of the Mumbai massacre. I have a couple of questions. Was Al Qaeda involved in anyway? What steps could India’s security forces have taken to prevent such a tragedy?

    One more thing, I do not trust BO as our Commander-in-Chief. His background, political and religous beliefs are shrouded in secrecy. BO is not exactly an open book and that’s why I question his judgment and character.

  • barborka#1

    i BELIEVE TAHT THIS WAS INSIDE JOB, DONE BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE FROM MUMBAI CONNECTED TO THOSE 10 FANATICS. THIS ONLY ONE WHO GOT GUT ALIVE WILL BE TORTURE AS WELL HE WILL BE SIGNING ALL NAME TO.tHIS JOB WAS DONE NOT BY ONLY pAKISTANIS, BUT iNDIA FANATICS AS WELL. THIS IS WHAT i THINK IT WAS DONE. hOW SOMEONE CAN BE TRAIN TO BE A SUCH HATEFUL MONSTER??? ANIMALS KILL FOR FOOD, BUT JUST TO KILL BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE NO BRAIN, OR PURELY SICK INDIVIDUALS, VERY SICK.VERY TOUGH INTERNATIONAL LAW MUST BE PUT IN TO SERIOUS WORK. NO MERCY FOR THOSE UGLY MONSTERS!!!

  • bayareavoter

    larry–I’ve been waiting for you to talk about this. I hope you keep updating the info as you see fit. It seems ridiculous to say only 10 men did this without any help in place. I just don’t believe anything I read in the NYT or hear on the news anymore.

    thank you, csuzeq, for that stuff from iowa hawk. Too funny.

    good night all, thanks for this site.

  • William L. Donlon

    ISI Part I

    Show you that they can hit India a nuclear Power!

    ISI Part II

    Show that they can Hit a NATO Convoy of 90 Trucks in the North West Territory.

    These things are done to send a message.

    Speaking of Messages:

    Larry, check out your Thursday posts.

    Obama spoke out against the “Election Day Rocket Blitz” against Israel on Meet The Press today, just three days after the “Discussion” on “No Quarter”

    And it’s not the first time.

    Keep up the good work Larry.

  • http://ezinearticles.com/?Three-Basic-Parenting-Styles&id=744499 Northwest rain

    Interesting observations.

    Sending messages — indeed.

  • Galt Pizza Parlor

    It was maybe a couple days ago I thought BO himself visits this blog. One never knows.

    This is directed to BO: Hey Barky, I could use a gig. Your employment questionnaire asks what online names I use. Now you know! :shock:

  • pm317

    ISI Part I

    Show you that they can hit India a nuclear Power!

    ———————

    You’re right about this. I hope some day, they get rid of their obsession with India and do something with their economy and grow as a country. Of course, ISI is there for itself, not its country.

  • SPalin

    I would bet that there was help in India. Seems like they would have had to know their way around a bit before launching the attack.

    What I do not understand is why would terrorists have to come from the water? Seems like a lot of trouble and unnecessary complication. Like most third world countries is not the border between India and Pakista fairly porous?

    Hard to know what really went on because a lot of moving parts and the Indians have many motivations to script the story as they see fit.

  • WildChild

    They did it to demonstrate they can conduct amphibious operations. Now we have to worry about terror from the sea. (LMAO) be afraid…. (gasp) be afraid….

  • Paris

    Mostly, I want to know about their funding, where it came from, where they obtained their support.

    And I would look beyond Pakistan.

  • Mary

    It means exactly what Joe the Plumber said it means: Keith Olberman is gonna pay higher taxes, cuz he cares about the poor. Uh-huh.

  • Mary

    I would guess–and it’s just a guess—that part of the $10 billion Bush gave to Musharraf was funneled through the ISI to some of these groups.

    Your tax dollars at work, eh?

  • ford

    Thank you LJ. You need to get on TV. The massacre was well planned and took up to 30-50 people working in fragments for this to occur, and to have simultaneous attack.

    The reason for the 10 number??? To give us a false sense of security. To make us think it was not so bad, even though the number of people injured, killed or traumatized was very high.

    BO has no plan here people. None. He will be out back the WhiteHouse smoking a cigarette, while his advisers tell him what to say. The blatant lies will pile up quickly. Lucky for him most people will not know , as the MSM is too busy propping up THAT ONE to give us a fair shake of the facts.

  • Strawberrybitch

    Thanks Larry for the update. One thing that has always bothered me, that NO ONE ever talks about is how KBR outsourced jobs to Pakistanis(among other nationalities) who served food in our dining facilites over in Iraq. They also did a lot of other jobs as well. They had access to our bases. You can’t tell me all of those folks passed background checks. My God it doesn’t take someone with your kind of background to wonder who was working there and what their true agenda was. All those mortar attacks on DFs and PXs seemed too well thought out.

  • Andy

    LJ:

    Question: What on the “motivations” for the attack
    what do you make of the one that posits that Al Q.
    wants to ease up the Pakistani military on its Afghanistan border and that by provoking increased tensions w/India more units would be moved to the INdian/Pakistan border and ease up pressure on the Afghanistan one ?
    (at a time when BO would want Zardani to increase Pakistani pressure on that border)

    As for the Coast Guard boat….I have no clue what did they do with it… Maybe they tow it or blew it (who knows) but probably that’s one of the reasons the kept one of the guards alive so that he/she could keep radio contact w/base and assure everything was OK??

    Thanks for the insightful analysis in your post!

  • I’m a Linda too

    Excellent account. And yes, the numbers SURELY don’t add up. Even more so, when you reached 11 to 13…and said you didn’t get to the Oberoi yet, you also forgot about the supposed 7 that hit the Taj Mahal. SO THE NUMBERS DEFINITELY DON’T ADD UP.

    Thank you.

  • pm317

    Land borders have been sealed and that is why LeT and others used the Sea.

    I have kept up with this story closely. They knew their way around through training. Read the confession from Kasav. There are plenty of newspaper accounts to get informed. Indians may cover up some of their mistakes but by and large the story is one of Pakistan, ISI, LeT and such terrorists being responsible for this. To say otherwise is ludicrous. with 8+ percent growth Indians are not stupid to shoot themselves in the foot with something like this.

  • Magic Puzzle Box

    That might explain why I had such a hard time finding any news source that actually explained what happened during the attacks. Of course, the early reports I missed because of the holiday, but even after the standoff ended, nothing too comprehensible was forthcoming. Interesting theory.

  • pm317

    Indian papers have reported this in quite a bit of detail day after day over the last week since it happened.
    check http://www.indianexpress.com/ or
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/

  • bwana

    More like this please, Larry. Good to see you returning to the substance and insight that made me an avid reader. Now, if you could just throw the anti-Obama nuts overboard…

  • noname

    Enjoy this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkHrIyxcHak

    I had read about it, But It is different to see that such a senior official actually thinks so…The nice aspect of it is to find different people of our own species, or could it be about the gorillas super-species which humans carry a little bit?

    This guy was a senior officer with more avenues for information than most of us have, and he sticks to conspiracy theories on 9/11 .

  • pm317

    Well, we all know he is lying through his teeth. When you know the truth, you can easily formulate a theory to the opposite and go around spreading that. Thanks for posting the video. These crooks must pay.

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