Current Article

Gee, George Bush and the White House Lied about Iraq and Uranium

By Larry Johnson on December 18, 2008 at 4:42 PM in Current Affairs

Who knew? George Bush lied to the American people. An early Christmas gift from Congressman Henry Waxman, chair of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform–the results of his investigation of the basis for the President’s claim in the 2003 State of the Union address that Saddam Hussein was trying to buy uranium in Africa. Nope. Wasn’t true.

Seems that senior CIA officers–Jamie Miscik in particular, who was head of the CIA’s analytical directorate–repeatedly told the White House that the claim Iraq was trying to buy uranium in Niger was bogus for a variety of reasons. Miscik, for instance, told Waxman’s investigators about the effort to persuade the White House not to include the claim in a 26 September 2002 Rose Garden speech. Miscik said:

that she prepared for her call with Dr. Rice by familiarizing herself with the reasons the CIA was requesting the claim be removed from the President’s speech. According to Ms. Miscik, those reasons included the fact that Iraq already had stockpiles of uranium and would not need to acquire yellowcake; that the uranium mines in Niger were “run by” the French; and that that some of these mines were “underwater.

But the White House would not take no for an answer. Despite no new intelligence (the claim that the British had acquired intelligence was bogus because it was the same intelligence from the same sources that the CIA had acquired in February 2002) emerging between October 2002 and January 2003, the White House insisted on inserting the bogus claim into the the State of the Union address.

The springboard for the latest Waxman report is a 2004 letter from then White House Counsel, Alberto Gonzales:

On January 6,2004, White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales sent a letter on behalf of Condoleezza Rice, who was then the National Security Advisor, to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, writingthat o’Dr. Rice has asked me to respond” to questions raised by the Committee about the uranium claim. Mr. Gonzales informed the Committee that the CIA “orally cleated” the uranium claim “for use by the President” in both a September 12,2002, speech to the United Nations and a September 26,2002, speech in the White House Rose Garden.

That is not true. The Waxman report (read here) documents in detail who said what when and to whom. The senior CIA officers, including Miscik and Tenet, did warn the White House there was no substance to the claim that Saddam was trying to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger (or any other place in west Africa). The White House worked feverishly to ignore those warnings and sell the American people a bald faced lie.

I doubt the Waxman report will put this issue to rest. But we do have the facts on the ground from Iraq. U.S. military forces located and ultimately disposed of 500 tons of uranium yellow cake that Iraq had acquired prior to 2002. Iraq did not have the ability to process that material and it was sitting in a warehouse posing only a local environmental hazard.

BernieO

Bet the media ignores this because they are too busy gushing over Caroline.

truthtelling007

Yes, they will ignore it, not guessing here either…I called CNN and told them this report was out and the woman who answered said, “yes, we’re aware of it.”. Since I haven’t seen it all day…when are they going to air it?

I repeated myself to her a few times, “when are you going to cover it then.”

“Sir, I said, we are aware of it.”

…what does that mean?…it means they don’t give a shit because it isn’t gays being upset with Obama, Caroline Kennedy, or of course, we must watch Jeannie Most cover the ridiculous mugshots…THAT IS IMPORTANT!

http://www.youtube.com/cheneywatch
This will be a source to cover any Cheney, WMD, or Nigergate type of info, along side NoQuarter.

Happy New Year NQ, its been a blast this year.

Morgan

I may be missing the point, but if Iraq seeking yellowcake was problem enough to somehow get Congress on board for war, I don’t think the fact that Iraq actually already had 500 tons of it makes the action that much worse of an idea. For folks in Congress to claim to have been misled becomes even more unbelievable.

Typewriterstreaming

Well Obama can take out George’s Bush junk in drips and drabs over the next four years – we can all discover all over again that King George is a liar – what a shock. What a stunning revelation. Obama and his cronies can bring out a new revelation here then one over there, and divert attention from what ever skunk trunk Obama is toting into the White House. What the heck ever happened to real investigations that actually went somewhere in a timely manner? That actually got reported on in a meaningful and honest way? Thanks for the post Larry. This was another excellent article.

truthtelling007

You may have to be the investigator.

See, I think the main thing that needs to shift is citizen accountability. I contact Congress, news outlets, federal/state/local officials, all the time if at least to be the primary person who holds them to account.

Of course, I’m not as powerful doing it alone as with a consensus and caucusing ability. One person can move a mountain, but it is a lot easier to move with many.

I’d say, if you are serious and not yacking (no offense to you in using yack), then stay on top of it. LJ and I now know each other simply because I became absolutely dedicated years back to making sure we had accountability for what happened to the Wilsons and our operatives around the world. From there blossomed the desire to hold others accountable: Obama’s campaign, Clinton’s campaign, McCain’s campaign, the media outlets, each other….

It is really up to you how this will turn out.
I want George W. Bush and Dick Cheney in prison. I want Donald Rumsfeld in prison. I’m not asking much here. Just that we put down the gross veneer of some nobility in these jerks and show that our country is built on integrity and principle. If it isn’t…then I don’t even know what the equation is, because I’m not one who can fight for a concept of America that has no integrity when it comes to push and shove on the global scene.

Call the Judiciary committee and demand hearings. Then tell your Representative to show up to the hearing. Don’t ask them. They work for you. If they refuse, find out why.

My Rep and I have a good rapport but he’s a moderate Dem. He doesn’t make waves. So in his case I make waves, then tell him I’m making waves, and I need his information on how to make waves since he won’t. Strange enough…this almost works for us.

I’d be interested to hear how the rest of you interrelate with your congressional and or local and state officials.

Happy Holidays and Bah Humbug to the non-holiday pragmatics. Either way, Cheney on trial in 2009! Whoohawww!!

Garry

I think most people don’t realize how stupid the people in charge are – the more aware I become, politically, the more surprised I am to find people I once thought capable are really nothing more than monkeys with computers, capable of googling, and pushing a button.

As with the war, the truth about which may constitute treason, looking closer at the stupidity of those behind the acts, one is amazed people of this intellectual caliber were ever allowed power.

And maybe this has more to do with Cheney, and his group, I simply dont remember people this stupid under Clinton, but I am simply amazed MEN this dumb were allowed to run a war.

A country cannot survive on the shoulders of stupid treasonous men, I truly hope they still execute for treason.

Baba Rum Raisin

>>> I think most people don’t realize how stupid the people in charge are –

Anyone with an IQ higher than a rock and situational awareness of a snail learns this very quickly upon first contact with any Authoritative Decision Making Agency consisting of twelve or more adult white men with neckties.

Fortune 500 company, big public school district, the US military and any hierarchical faith-based organization are illustrative examples.

fiscalliberal

Well – our ordeal of George Bush will be soon over. The quote of the year has to be that of Kevin Phillips on the C-Span Book TV when he was interviewed for 3 hours on his book “Bad Money”. He said “He does not belive the Bushes are capable of Original Thought. It is a genetic thing”

Phillips is a former Reagan political commentater quite capable of spanning the political devide. He does not like the Bushes.

The sad story is that our Democracy (Washington Beltway) is so busy with their own game, we are not able to recover from liars. More over our free press is not capable of protecting it. Our soldiers get screwed and our country is in a mess financially.

The truley sad thing is I do not expect much more from Obama. However the bar has been set so low, anything Obama does will be viewed as progress and the butt snorkling press will fall in line.

Garry

The sad story is that our Democracy (Washington Beltway) is so busy with their own game, we are not able to recover from liars. More over our free press is not capable of protecting it. Our soldiers get screwed and our country is in a mess financially.

The truley sad thing is I do not expect much more from Obama. However the bar has been set so low, anything Obama does will be viewed as progress and the butt snorkling press will fall in line.

Right.

But hadn’t this ship sailed, to those in the know, a long time ago?

So, now it’s finally gone mainstream.

The days of depending on the coroprate press, on corporate Washington, are long gone.

So, here’s hoping the people will once again take an interest in real democracy, for it’s own sake, for the preservation and the growth of America.

The Waxman report (read here) documents in detail who said what when and to whom. The senior CIA officers, including Miscik and Tenet, did warn the White House there was no substance to the claim that Saddam was trying to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger (or any other place in west Africa). The White House worked feverishly to ignore those warnings and sell the American people a bald faced lie.

And I bet it gives Cheney and Addington and the rest of the kooks sleepless nights.

It’s not over by a long shot, again, some of it even seems to be tying-in together, the financial players, anyway.

bert

Thanks for confirming with even more facts what many of us at the time believed to be fact – that is there is nor was any justification for invading Iraq.

Diana

I’ve been watching that mini-series on Iraq. Saddam’s House. I found yet another reason to be upset with Bush and everytime I think about it I get angry. Those two young men his son in laws that gave us all the information and helped us we turned our back on and sent them to their deaths. We knew exactly what would be done to them. I don’t have as much sympathy for the General because he was part of what was going on as I do for the brother.

I don’t like the way they killed Saddam’s grandson. That child didn’t deserve to die like that, he had nothing to do with what was going on. They had no way to get anymore ammunition and our troops could have outlasted them. Instead they just killed everyone.

Also I didn’t know that after they(the son in laws) turned over everything they had to the Americans…Saddam also to save face allowed those inspectors in and gave them all the same information his son in law’s had given them. Which would mean he cooperated with them months before we went in.

I’ve said from the beginning if we were going to do this is should have been done during Desert Storm when we had the support of the people of Iraq and almost the entire Middle East. I do not believe this was for oil. I believe this was both a revenge thing and to correct the errors of the Father because they had the opportunity to do something “then” with the world’s support. Also Saddam tried to have Bush Sr. executed and almost succeeded in Kuwait.

TeakWoodKite

More to read LJ, love it.

Thanks.
Phil Drinka

Off topic, but of interest for all. Rep John Linder of Georgia will challenge the Electoral voting results when the results are put up for ratification on January 8, 2009.

http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1380&posts=3

Mandelay

Good! He is a brave one. Maybe some of the other representatives in Congress will have the courage to do the same. I don’t think most people even know there might be a problem or that any of the questions about Obama’s birth info would result in an issue.

I’m a Linda too

Yep, thanks for the post.

They only confirm what we’ve known about the Wilsons/Plame. They were telling the truth and really put their lives on the line for their country.

jbjd

I started reading the post and thought, ‘Oh, I already knew this…,’ and was about to skip it until I realized, this is the only ‘news’ I am getting nowadays. So, I had better read straight through. And I did.

Unlike several other posters on this site, I do not fault the MSM; they have no constitutional obligation to represent my interests in government. But why am I paying the more than $150k salaries to people who fail to make appropriate decisions based on what I assume is their greater access to information? I am a teacher in a major urban public school system; but I spend countless hours educating myself about the issues affecting my life and the life of my family, when I come home. And this steals time from my family!

When this election cycle is over; that is, when a qualified President is sworn in, I will work to unseat every federal legislator in my state, and to change the laws that grant the major political parties extraordinary access to my state ballot.

Garry

Unlike several other posters on this site, I do not fault the MSM; they have no constitutional obligation to represent my interests in government.

They use the public airwaves, some, that’s a legal obligation right there.

It was once stated they had to use those airwaves in a manner that served the public good, that defined as rational in a free, democratic society.

Something happened, though.
athy

jbjd,
The founders of our country relied on the system of checks and balances to keep our country running smoothly.

The three members of the ‘system’ including the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of govt serve to ‘check and balance’ each other in the interest of our constitutional republic.

The founders of our country-led by Thomas Jefferson-envisioned that the media (aka The Fourth Estate) was to serve as the ‘fourth member’ in this system of checks and balances.

I hear what you are saying in your comment.

If you get a chance, read
“Elements of Journalism” written by
Bill Kovach & Tom Rosenstiel

• Book came about from 1997 meeting –Committee of Concerned Journalists- Harvard Faculty Club- editors, TV, radio, Education & authors.
• This book is description of the theory & culture of journalism
•
According to the authors (who hold the same opinion as the founders of our country) the purpose of journalism is to provide people with info they need to be free & self governing. Inorder to do this:
o Journalism’s first obligation is to the truth
o First loyalty is to citizens

The msm has failed in this role…it has failed miserably. The msm has breached a fiduciary responsibility to the public.

Many serious journalists and well-informed citizens know this.

Our next step is to protect the internet. This is the only remaining sphere where true journalists, citizen journalists, and bloggers can continue to inform each other.

I cancelled my subscription to the LA Times a while ago, I no longer gather ‘news’ from domestic publications and I no longer watch any major US network news programs.

But make no mistake about it…as a result of taking the above actions, I consider myself more well-informed than I have ever been in the past. I read international news publications, I blog, I watch international news channels, I talk with my friends, family and neighbors…

jbjd…I beg to differ with you very strongly in that -yes- I hold the msm (and owners) directly responsible for the dumbing down of our nation…

Garry

All that Cheney and Bush, and the rest of them, did, in regard to the war, and such, was really legally treasonous, if you read between the lines, right?

Baba Rum Raisin

And yet, Nixon and Reagan expired peacfully and spent not a day in the dock or behind iron.

Colin Powell is so deluded that he thinks he has a constituency in this country, after urinating upon his shoes at the UN RE: “Saddam’s Winnebagoes of Doom.”

Within five years, flocks of wannabe biographers will be finding their way to Der Shrub and assisting in the effort to rewrite history, doubtless abetted by James Baker, George Tenet, Lynn Cheney and two hundred “research fellows” of the AEI.

Garry

And yet, Nixon and Reagan expired peacfully and spent not a day in the dock or behind iron.

—-
I dont know about that, I certainly wouldn’t have wanted to be in their heads.

And again, I look outside what I would consider domestic treason, to the international picture — how can their acts of treason be turned to lemonade?

For instance, Iran Contra, how can this act of treason, though regretable, be used in what I would consder the greater world wide asymmetrical war?

Can I use a doofus treasonous crew to create a firewall, of sorts, for truly smart people, against America’s enemies?

(Sorry, I read a lot, I suppose if I were a spy novelist, I would use it as plot device).

hootnannie

I used to worry about what Obama might do once he gets in. Now, I’m beginning to worry more about what Bush might do before he leaves! He’s not in his right mind!
Sassy

I spent the entire run-up to the war “slack-jawed” in disbelief that no one could put the brakes on this run-away disaster.
When the “shock and awe” started, I watched Americans celebrating because we were going to kick ass.
Trajic! Should people die in such a manner if sanity could avoid it?
Yes, there is a time to fight…but be damned sure, if possible, and then go to win!

Garry

The people were SOLD this war, as with much in the election, all they know is what they read and see in the MSM, and the MSM is simply a PR tool for the politicians, now, bought and paid for.

But Larry’s post yesterday, about Tenet, hit the nail on the head; HE was one of those who, if he had spoken up, could have helped prevent this travesty.

But he didn’t. Neither did Powell, or Rice.

So the question has to be: why?

And if our “leaders, ” our “elite,” are too afraid, or too complicit, or too stupid to protect the law, we need to find out why, and get rid of them, holding them accountable.

We’re are, but we’re not victims, here, those “elite” hold no special rights or power, no matter what they think — they started a war, they couldn’t even win it, with the most powerful army in the world behind them.

So I guess it still takes brains, and intellect to run a superpower, apparently something lacking, now, among those circles.

athy

Garry-
Many people agree with you…

http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/

http://www.bushcommission.org/

Excellent article Larry-Thanks.

Tricia Spiegel

Just when you think it can’t possibly get more bizarre…
karen for Clinton (told you so)

I am so happy the final month of the Bush White House has arrived and that LIAR will be gone for good. Of course it just means this time that a brand new shiny liar will take his place. Ob will have a hard time in the lying pissing contest with Dubya, but I have faith he can win the contest with ease.
juan

Remember, MANY Dems agreed with him then and prior.

I’m so MAD about SCAMS & FRAUDS, Blago, Chicago Machine, Republicans & DEMS alike, I almost can’t think straight. We’re really sweating (our livelyhood) Retirement Funds, Bank Loans, Credit Cards,etc. and we have Good Credit.

I am SOOoooo Sick about Obama’s Presidency. Hillary should be there, but maybe all of this happened to WAKE-UP the American People. We need to hold them all ACCOUNTABLE. Christmas is HERE & we’re worried about TAXES. WHAT IN THE WORLD HAS HAPPENED TO OUR CIUNTRY?
juan

Remember, MANY Dems agreed with him then and prior.

I’m so MAD about SCAMS & FRAUDS, Blago, Chicago Machine, Republicans & DEMS alike, I almost can’t think straight. We’re really sweating (our livelyhood) Retirement Funds, Bank Loans, Credit Cards,etc. and we have Good Credit.

I am SOOoooo Sick about Obama’s Presidency. Hillary should be there, but maybe all of this happened to WAKE-UP the American People. We need to hold them all ACCOUNTABLE. Christmas is HERE & we’re worried about TAXES. WHAT IN THE WORLD HAS HAPPENED TO OUR COUNTRY?
Strawberrybitch

Bush lied…and…now what? So what’s going to happen to him? Accountability is so passe.

Garry

Not in certain circles, I would think he, and the rest, have made some powerful enemies.

Even many of his father’s friends, guys like Baker, were appalled at the conduct of the war, some of the military have asked Obama to order Cheney’s records kept for public examination, down to the smallest post-it note.

I’m sure there will be a tussle, Cheney ignoring them, but it’s good to know some in the miltiary, wtih high rank, still fight to protect this country, holding skunks like Cheney, (stupid retarded, skunks like Cheney), responsible.

Strawberrybitch

Hmmmm, for some reason I can’t picture Obama holding Cheney accountable for anything. All Cheney would have to do is hiss at him and he’d run and hide behind Michelle’s ample backside. Either that or Cheney would promise to donate to his 2012 campaign (from Dubai of course) and Barky would pardon him.

Garry

Obama might not, but the rich people might.

They’re different, you know?

JRD

WAXMAN IS A COMMUNIST PIG!
Zaggs

Except Waxman’s report contradicts the much more exhaustive senate intel report. That report puts Waxman’s dream that only the White House made the claim to complete ruin. Also Bush did not claim the US government had proof, but rather the British government did (via a while paper from 2002).
The senate report found the CIA to have a conflicting position on the subject.

http://intelligence.senate.gov/080605/phase2a.pdf
Sharon Reynolds

Ok So the press wires ran the story of the final clean up of the yellow cake. But no one talked about it the campaign or media. It is noted by me that the AP article was not available at the time it happened and was listed as an update.
One blogger said he could not find it in any archive.
The administration had to keep the lid on this.

But not in July. The AP appears to have witheld the story. It was no little project either, and required a government approval before they could take it anywhere. Since it time to get a government and a buyer, some people had the audacity to say this was Bushe’s fault too. I just learned that Arab oil owns the AP or at least in large part has bought it. They now own every major network it is rumored. The fact of someting fishy about the AP timing tells me they could be right. We have been had while fighting for Demacray we have been sold to Islam. Thank you Nancy Bimbo Pelsoi for keeping up the drain of dollars and worrying about a mosse instead of your country.

Garry

I thought the Pentagon was heavily involved with the AP, with planting stories?

Not every military man is bright.

Sharon Reynolds

Pelosi is the same fruit cake that sent a letter to all secretaries of state saying Obama is qualified because her perty nominated him. The problem is we have a bunch of retards running this country while the snakes are slithering on in. Bush Cheney have kept our butts out of the fire, and this may be the last good year America ever knew. Doesn’t anyone find it strange that in the midst of a world wide Islamic Jehad we get a guy like Barak Hussein Obama running, who traveled on an Indonesian passport by his own words. And the supreme court is even asleep? Too strange.
candymarl

What’s odd is the WH didn’t base the war simply on yellow cake or other foreign intelligence sources.

The WH said we had to go to war not because Saddam planned to get WMD’s or the components to make them. We needed to attack because he already had them. It didn’t matter what the UN Inspectors on the ground said.

Funny thing is I think those other “sources” need to fix their intelligence services if they were this wrong about actual nuclear weaponry. That’s a big mistake to make.

Bush lied? Alert the – never mind.
Patience

Am I missing something? To quote Larry:

“But we do have the facts on the ground from Iraq. U.S. military forces located and ultimately disposed of 500 tons of uranium yellow cake that Iraq had acquired prior to 2002. Iraq did not have the ability to process that material and it was sitting in a warehouse posing only a local environmental hazard.”

This is very interesting, to say the least. If it was reported in the media it certainly didn’t get much attention (or my attention anyway) — over and over again all I recall hearing is that there were no WMD found, and that’s what I believed. But it seems to me now that something important was downplayed if not ignored.

Can someone please explain why 500 tons of uranium in the hands of Saddam Hussein shouldn’t have been considered threatening, since it strongly suggests, if not proves, the intention to develop nuclear weaponry whether or not all the components were at Iraq’s disposal at the time? If Iraq even bothered to amass that much uranium, why should anyone think it would stop there and not try to acquire whatever else was needed?

This blows my mind and makes me re-think a lot of my opinions about the war up until now.
SeattleBruce

“Iraq did not have the ability to process that material and it was sitting in a warehouse posing only a local environmental hazard.”

With all due respect Saddam Hussein violated 16 UN Chapter 7 (the worst violations) Security Council resolutions. Everyone here is assuming that the rogue nature of Saddam sitting atop the third largest oil reserves on the planet, was just fine and dandy – there was absolutely no reason to enter Iraq (that argument can be made, but not so blithely – REALLY!), and that the 500 tons of yellow cake uranium now going to be put to good use in Canada to produce energy, would never have been convertable to nuclear weapons use. What? What world do we live in if not, pay to play? Come on – does anyone here not think that Saddam could have eventually circumvented the UN sanctions and gotten somebody to figure out the conversion of the uranium into weapons grade for the right (billions?) price so that he could hold the world that sanctioned him (the West) hostage in some nuclear tipped nightmare against his near neighbor Israel?

Oh, but the fools that went to war..

I’m not saying Bushies didn’t manipulate thin to none current evidence on the nuclear side of the WMD – but what I am saying is that we’ve forever (or at least for a very long time) removed Saddam and the rogue nature of Iraq from these nuclear and other WMD equations.

Can you at least agree, that there is value in that?

Secondly, at the very least, this war drew out the extremist, Al Qaeda vermin into the open air and something like 3/4 of their current leadership is dead. Is that not a stated goal of every last US and Western leader following the 9/11 strikes?

What Bush did wrong was assume that the nuclear WMD intel was true, even though there were serious doubts as to its then current viability. He should not have stressed this, used it in his speeches, nor allowed others within the admin to stress this. However, again, the Bush or Bush admin mistake there, doesn’t eliminate the other points about the war, up to and including the points about Saddam weaponizing his 500 tons of yellow cake uranium at any future point.

Have I drunk the Bushies Kool-aid, or, is there a more reasonable middle ground the must be assumed if you look at the facts of the Iraq, AQ and Middle East scenario? Please explain where I’m wrong (vs. reacting out of emotion to what I’m saying.)

Bush lied? Maybe. Manipulated? Probably. But don’t forget the pariah that was Saddam, the WMD he did have and use, and his future as a rogue state atop the 3rd largest oil reserves in the world. I know it was an expensive price, but specific threats were eliminated, much of AQs head has been destroyed, and Iraq is now at least able to play a nuetralizing role in the ME.
SeattleBruce

Test
SeattleBruce

Test2
SeattleBruce

“Iraq did not have the ability to process that material and it was sitting in a warehouse posing only a local environmental hazard.”

With all due respect Saddam Hussein violated 16 UN Chapter 7 (the worst violations) Security Council resolutions. Everyone here is assuming that the rogue nature of Saddam sitting atop the third largest oil reserves on the planet, was just fine and dandy – there was absolutely no reason to enter Iraq (that argument can be made, but not so blithely – REALLY!), and that the 500 tons of yellow cake uranium now going to be put to good use in Canada to produce energy, would never have been convertable to nuclear weapons use. What? What world do we live in if not, pay to play? Come on – does anyone here not think that Saddam could have eventually circumvented the UN sanctions and gotten somebody to figure out the conversion of the uranium into weapons grade for the right (billions?) price so that he could hold the world that sanctioned him (the West) hostage in some nuclear tipped nightmare against his near neighbor Israel?
SeattleBruce

Well there was more to the above comment – but the blog doesn’t seem to post comment easily at times..
SeattleBruce

More from Seattle Bruce:
I’m not saying forces in the Bush admin didn’t manipulate thin to none then current evidence on the nuclear side of the WMD – but what I am saying is that we’ve removed Saddam & the rogue nature of Iraq from these nuclear and other WMD equations.

Can we at least agree, that is valuable?
SeattleBruce

Still trying to get this blog to post (sorry.)
SeattleBruce

I’m not suggesting that some within the Bush administration didn’t leverage very thin intelligence at the time on the nuclear WMD issues. I am saying is that we’ve removed Saddam and the rogue nation Iraq from the nuclear and WMD equations.

Let’s agree on this shall we?

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

you can’t speak for all of time, so we can’t agree.

SeattleBruce

Instead of telling me you disagree, tell me why you disagree! Of course people disagree on these matters..

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

I already did. You can’t speak for all of time

SeattleBruce

I didn’t say the removal was ‘for all of time’ but it was removed – at least for a long time. I suppose you were cool having Saddam sitting atop the 3rd largest pool of oil money in the world – with all of his murderous tendencies…that’s just fine with you?

What’s your take on containing AQ Wild?

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

You can’t assume what the time frame is and a long time isn’t even a time LOL. It’s an ambiguous statement that means all things to all people.

Now as far as Saddam, one of the things that always struck me about his “murderous” intent is how there wasn’t any exodus from Iraq until we moved in and created a killing field.

Now to Al qaeda. You can’t contain something unless you know where it is. Al qaeda works on the basis of a loosely connected independent cell structure. It’s doubtful we have contained it. LOL Simply using the word “contained” means we haven’t.

SeattleBruce

At the least, this war drew out into the open air the extremist, Al Qaeda vermin and 75% of their current leadership is dead. This is/was a stated goal of every US and Western leader following the 9/11 strikes.

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

if they’re dead they can’t be the current leadership. The dead guys would make of the former leadership.

SeattleBruce

Well at the time they killed them – they were their current leadership and they continue to kill the current AQ leadership. Let’s not get semantical for arguments sake, alright? Now, you tell me why it was wrong strategy to take the rogue nature of Iraq’s capabilites, with it sitting atop the 3rd largest oil reserves in the world – off the table?

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

first, how was Iraq’ nature rougue?

SeattleBruce

You’re kidding, right? 16 UN Chapter 7 security violations – yeah, that’s rogue. Mass gassing of their own citizens, uh, that’s rogue. Having political gulags with rape rooms, uh, that’s rogue. Playing Russian roulette with its citizens regarding WMD, yes, that’s rogue.

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

we’ve done all those things.

SeattleBruce

Official state support ($25,000 each) of suicide bombers’ families going into Israel, that’s rogue.

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

you’re pissed that Saddam gave money to families that had their houses bulldozed and their possessions destroyed by the Israeli army even though they them selves didn’t do anything?

SeattleBruce

Attacking Kuwait to try to secure yet more oil wealth with the world watching – rogue.

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

wasn’t he liberating them from their evil rulers?

SeattleBruce

Do you believe that?

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

no more then I believed it when we said it.

TeakwoodKite

How can you quantify what you can not define? what happened to other 25%? If you knew what 100% was then would they not all be …Gitmo’ed or worse?

75% of their current leadership is dead

SeattleBruce

OK, so now there is 0% trusting any western intel? The intelligence services of the West to some degree know/knew who the leaders of AQ were and are. Can you not agree with that? If you can’t agree with that, then let’s just stop and talk about something else…like recipes…

It’s very easy to understand how we can know about Osama bin Laden, for instance or Al-Zarqawi, and not actually capture or kill them for years. We listen to thousands and thousands of sources and piece together some reasonable intel picture. It’s what keeps our butts from being blown away by entities that would love nothing more than to kill us all. But you distrust that? Yeah, I’d like to see you take on the Islamic jihad without that safety net in place..

SeattleBruce

Assuming that the nuclear WMD intel was true, even though there were serious doubts as to its then current viability, was what Bush did wrong. Bush should not have stressed this, used it in his speeches, nor allowed others within the admin to stress this. But this doesn’t eliminate the other points about the war, up to and including Saddam weaponizing his 500 tons of yellow cake uranium at any future point.

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

yeah it was wrong. As matter of fact dick cheney and papa bush laid out the reasons why it was wrong when saddam did it.

SeattleBruce

Huh? I was talking about Bush focus on Saddam’s nuclear weapon capabilities.

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

you asked this

was what Bush did wrong

I answered

SeattleBruce

No, I stated that focusing on Saddam’s then current nuclear WMD capabilites ‘was what Bush did wrong.’

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

interesting limitation.

Garry

It was wrong, we simply don’t know the truth about the threat and whether it could have been contained in another way.

Cheney and his kooks aren’t the only ones with a “solution” to terrorism, their solution costing the US it’s economy, and two wars.

There is sound principle for NOT attacking head on in the way Cheney did, I think we’d be surprised by the level of incomptence.

Iraq, the ME, are simply part of, simply another battleground in a larger asymmetric war that has been waged against the US since the end of WW2, again, we have to look at all factors, (ie what is Russia’s role, here, was Israel baited into military actions against it’s better interest to involve the US in a catastrophoic war effort that would weaken it, etc) it’s not simply a matter of the US as Rambo, that was never real, and it was simply incredible men so stupid were allowed to command.

SeattleBruce

i.e. the Iraq threat was not real? Also, did you support the first Gulf War?

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

We invaded and didn’t find anything. The threat wasn’t real.

SeattleBruce

Did I drink the Kool-aid? OR, is there a more balanced ground to assume if the facts of the Iraq, Al Qaeda & Middle East are viewed objectively?

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

using the terms balanced and objectively are pretty good indicators that you drank the Kool aid

SeattleBruce

What? Those terms don’t exist in your reality? Do you believe in objective or empirical truth? Do you believe in the scientific method? What does 500 tons of yellow cake uranium mean to you, you know, personally? How does it make you feel?

Garry

What’s the definition of the scientific method, to you?

Some of those who like to think themselves the most rational are the stupidest, the least intelligent.

Even with a Harvard PHD, go figure.

In fact, this war brought America to it’s knees on the backs of a bunch of talentless Harvard PhD’s.

So, what does it mean, anymore?

SeattleBruce

In fact, this war brought America to it’s knees on the backs of a bunch of talentless Harvard PhD’s.

So, what does it mean, anymore?

I agree, sometimes PHD means piled higher and deeper. However, there were and are objective facts about Iraq that we can agree upon. For instance, having 500 tons of yellowcake uranium, and the 3rd largest reserve of oil wealth in the hands of a proven mad megalomaniac, who used WMD – is quite a danger and would tend, over time, to get more, not less dangerous (to address the ‘we were doing fine just containing him’ idea. For all the madness of the mullahs in Iran, even they have not used WMDs on their own population – although they are brutal and sick in their own right.)
SeattleBruce

“In fact, this war brought America to it’s knees on the backs of a bunch of talentless Harvard PhD’s.

So, what does it mean, anymore?”

I agree that PHD can sometimes mean piled higher and deeper. But this sort of arrogance does not eliminate the other factual considerations proving that having Saddam Hussein’s rogue regime gone may have ultimately prove to be the best thing for the world.

http://www.jable.com/jable/WildChild.jpg WIldChild

500 tons of yellow cake means Saddam didn’t attempt to reconstitute his nuclear program. Oh and I’m a big fan of empirical evidence. Of course, There’s no balance or objectivity to empirical evidence. It simply is what is.

SeattleBruce

Did Bush (himself) lie about Iraq’s nuclear WMD? Could be. Manipulate that intel? Probably. However, we cannot just dream away Saddam the pariah, the WMD he owned and used against innocents, and his totally worrisome future sitting atop the THIRD largest oil reserves on the globe. I comprehend that what has happened in Iraq and with Al Qaeda has been a very high price, but specific security threats were eliminated, much of AQs leadership has been killed (or nuetralized), and Iraq is now able to play a nuetralizing role in this tumultuous region.
SeattleBruce

“Of course, There’s no balance or objectivity to empirical evidence. It simply is what is.”

That’s ridiculous. Viewing something as it is, is exactly empirical and objective. 500 tons of yellowcake secretly removed from Iraq because of it’s dangerous nature – means it was EXTREMELY dangerous – despite what you may feel about it, or how you may feel viscerally about Bush.