Current Article

Spot Report on the Blackwater Incident

By Larry Johnson on September 27, 2007 at 11:18 PM in Current Affairs

Here’s the report from Diplomatic Security channels about the recent Blackwater incident. Looks like the Iraqi police and Army were ready to start mixing it up with the mercenaries.

Full version of the Spot Report.Spot Report on the Blackwater Incident

UPDATE: And from today’s New York Times:

The episode began around 11:50 a.m. on Sunday, Sept. 16. Diplomats with the United States Agency for International Development were meeting in a guarded compound about a mile northwest of Nisour Square, where the shooting would later take place.

A bomb exploded on the median of a road a few hundred yards away from the meeting, causing no injuries to the Americans, but prompting a fateful decision to evacuate. One American official who knew about the meeting cast doubt on the decision to move the diplomats out of a secure compound.

“It raises the first question of why didn’t they just stay in place, since they are safe in the compound,” the official said. “Usually the concept would be, if an I.E.D. detonates in the street, you would wait 15 to 30 minutes, until things calmed down,” he said, using the abbreviation for improvised explosive device.

But instead of waiting, a Blackwater convoy began carrying the diplomats south, toward the Green Zone. Because their route would pass through Nisour Square, another convoy drove there to block traffic and ensure that the diplomats would be able to pass.

At least four sport utility vehicles stopped in lanes of traffic that were entering the square from the south and west. Some of the guards got out of their vehicles and took positions on the street, according to the official familiar with the report on the American investigation.

At 12:08 p.m., at least one guard began to fire in the direction of a car, killing its driver. A traffic policeman said he walked toward the car, but more shots were fired, killing a woman holding an infant sitting in the passenger seat.

There are three versions of why the shooting started. The Blackwater guards have told investigators that they believed that they were being fired on, the official familiar with the report said. A preliminary Iraqi investigation has concluded that there was no enemy fire, but some Iraqi witnesses have said that Iraqi commandos in nearby guard towers may have been shooting as well, possibly leading Blackwater guards to believe that militants were firing at them.

After the family was shot, a type of grenade or flare was fired into the car, setting it ablaze, according to some accounts. Other Iraqis were also killed as the shooting continued. Iraqi officials have given several death counts, ranging from 8 to 20, with perhaps several dozen wounded. American officials have said that no Americans were hurt.

At some point during the shooting, one or more Blackwater guards called for a cease-fire, according to the American official.

PrchrLady

Larry, all… this Blackwater group are pure evil. I have read several articles today about some of the escapades of these mercenaries. I have a strong feeling that we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg as far as the tactics they have chosen to condone and use. Here is another link to another article on some monetary figures of the cost. We are going to be in deep shit if Congress doesn’t get a handle on this very quickly. Even more worrisome these days is the thought of these guys opperating freely on our own soil.

http://www.ablogistan.com/archives/2007/09/worse_than_abu.html

greatdogs

About those “investigations” into Blackwater and other contact matters in Iraq:

WASHINGTON — Aides to State Department Inspector General Howard Krongard threatened two investigators with retaliation this week if they cooperate with a congressional probe into Krongard’s office, the chairman of a House of Representatives panel and other U.S. officials said Friday.

The allegations are the latest in a growing uproar surrounding Krongard. Current and former officials in his office charge that he impeded investigations into alleged arms smuggling by employees of the private security firm Blackwater and into faulty construction of the new U.S. Embassy in Baghdad

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/20100.html

There is now talk that Blackwater may be hired to supplement local police forces at the Republican Convention in the Twin Cities next year. I will post updates as they become available.

PrchrLady

test
MEP

Keep up the heat. These brownshirt bastards need to be taken down before another Katrina or Rita. “Coming to a street corner near you soon!” Read, wake up, organize and push back before it’s too late.
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

According to the DoD’s press secretary Geoff Morell, the Pentagon doesn’t have a contract with them. That has to be wrong. Who are they working for? The State Dept.?

Retired

State/CIA’s security contractor of choice is Blackwater, mostly because of the Cofer Black connection. DoD favors Triple Canopy, an “SOF-Delta culture” contractor. Incidentally, Blackwater is a “SEAL culture” company, and SEALs are well-known for being trained to deliver massive firepower either in conducting or breaking up an ambush in order to make up for the very small patrols that they typically operate with. If this training has translated over to their security work, it shouldn’t be surprising that they have twice the shooting incidents on record of any State contractor in Iraq.

Leslie

They don’t operate under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, since the DoD didn’t hire them. Don’t they have legal carte blanche?

http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

Yes. The contract is with State.
LJ

Leslie

Does anyone else have a problem with the State Dept. hiring mercenaries?

I’d have a problem with the Pentagon sending out mercenary proxies for our military in order to project US power too…but the State Dept???

susanunpc

Best I know, the State Dept. has no choice. They haven’t their own security force. Their diplomats need protection, so … I forget who I heard say it, but someone said that perhaps the State Dept. should be given funds to hire and set up its own security teams, a la the Secret Service? Larry would probably know best if that’s a practical idea or not.

Shirin

OR the State Dept. could keep its “diplomats” (wink, wink) out of places where they are not welcome.

http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

yea, i read state dept too larry

Bill Keyes

That’s all there is to what happened? I sure hope somebody understands what all the abbreviations are.
Shirin

Yes, Leslie, Blackwater’s contract is with the State Department.
Retired

One of the aspects of State’s Blackwater contingent in Iraq that isn’t covered is how many non-Americans, including Iraqis, are employed in their PSDs, TSTs and as local intelligence gatherers. Although the company image is pretty much that of a swaggering American not subject to local laws, with all that this implies, one wonders what policies they might have in selecting, hiring and training Iraqis. Some security companies in Iraq have been incredibly obtuse in their use of local security shooters, for instance, sending in traditionally-attired Peshmergas to protect American civilians doing engineering surveys in Sunni neighborhoods in Baghdad. This so incensed the neighborhood cops that they didn’t even wait for the insurgents to show up, they just opened fire themselves. I can understand the Americans not understanding why this was a problem, but one would think that at least the Peshmergas would’ve had some understanding of the stupidity of this move.
liberalbuffet

I have always felt Blackwater helped start the war, and is there to keep it going. Im sure Bush had these nuts in mind when he planned to go in.
mudkitty

Mission Accomplished.
Brenda Stewart

As far as I am concerned, the mercs are up to no good as long as they are there and are in business. Of course the gov. wanted them there to take the slack of the military or else they would have to institute the draft. Remember just how many there are in-country, and that they equal the amt of service members in-country, if not more. God forbid there are those who are like the ones in NOLA here in the states. What have we become!!!!!???? This truly is the worst government in our history!

http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

ahhh. Brenda..
I’m picking Nixon #1
Bush #2

or maybe a tie.. quite the distinction though.

Shirin

I don’t think Nixon did even remotely as much damage to other countries OR to the U.S.’s image in the world as Bush has, and will continue to do as long as he is in office.

And Nixon actually did a few positive things, did he not?

http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

shirin: guess you had to be around then..
Just a tidbit from Wikki:
The Vietnam War, also known as the Second Indochina War, the American War in Vietnam and the Vietnam Conflict, occurred from 1959 to April 30, 1975, in Vietnam, concluding with the North Vietnamese victory after more than 15 years and over 1.5 million people dead on both sides. The war was fought between the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam) and the United States-supported Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam). The result of the war was defeat of the Southern and American forces, and unification of Vietnam under the communist government of the North.
*******************
He also bombed Cambodia, became a disgraced president and resigned, Nixon went to China and did a week visit..big whoop!! He should have stayed there.

I vote Nixon #1. Bush a close 2nd.

Shirin

What makes you think I wasn’t around then?

Shirin

PS The only reason Bush has not been impeached/forced to resign is that the Congress won’t do it.

mudkitty

Why do you think they call themselves Blackwater?
ybnormal

At face value the common thread in both of these reports, appears to be the relatively higher level of dis-trust that the Iraqis (including the Iraqi Army and Police untis) have of Blackwater as compared to the U.S. Army. A very telling moment occurs in the spot report where the U.S. Army has to come save Blacwater’s ass. An obvious question to me is, how much greater trust would the U.S. Army gain by eliminating the association with Blackwater, who seems to be perceived much more negatively than the U.S. Army?

Another natural question raises about Blackwater’s usefullness to the U.S. Army that they’re supposed to be supporting. The question would be, what’s the point of hiring a contractor to free up the resources of the U.S. Army, if the Army has to use the ‘freed-up’ resources to protect the contractor who’s ‘freeing up’ the resources?

ybnormal

Sorry for talking to myself, but here’s another little bit of bizareness. The DSS spot report says that TST 23′s Bearcat (whatever that is) command vehicle became disabled. The reason is never reported, but it’s “nature” is reported to be under investigation. Then, while under small arms fire, they tow it away. Personally I’d like to hear from the tow truck driver who values a broken truck so much more than his own life that he’s willing to hitch up a broken truck and take it away while being shot at; unless of course the account of being under small arms fire is false.

Meanwhile, TST 22 goes on site to support TST 23 even though by arrival time TST 23 has already left the area. So why didn’t TST 22 just turn around and go back? Was the radio broken in TST 23′s disabled Bearcat? Or was TST 22 just missin’ out on all the shootin’? Yeehah!

Bill Keyes

ybnormal

Thanks for that explanation…I think I understand now????

By the way does that mean the good guys won???

A question for Larry.

In a “war” zone such as this there is always a clear chain of command even if there is more that one branch of the military operating.

What specific tasks are the BW mercs assigned and are they part the chain of command? Does the military always know where they are and what they are doing?

It seems to me that our military has an almost impossible task of not only keeping track of what the BW mercs are doing but the Iraqi police the Iraqi Army and the various militias who are supposed to be on our side.

It would seem to me that this is no way to run a war.

As even the troops say “What is the f**king mission”

Shirin

I think the U.S. military has done and continues to do a good enough job of generating hatred and distrust that they really do not need the help of Blackwater. Even the Kurds – the population, not their mafiosi “leaders” – are getting quite fed up.

And why would anyone not distrust any heavily armed people who are there to enforce by violent means domination of their country by a foreign power? Why would they trust them even IF they had not shown a brutality and a disregard for the lives and welfare of Iraqis that makes Saddam look like a kind, caring ruler?

Yogi-one

Blackwater is America’s overseas face.

They embody everything that’s wrong with corporatization of government. They embody everything that’s wrong with American foreign policy.

They are led by a Militant Christian Reconstructionist who considers himself a member of the Knights Templar and believes fighting Muslims is God’s plan for him.

Bush/Cheney, Abu Ghraib, and Blackwater are the international symbols of America.

It falls to us to change that, because our leaders, Democrat or Republican, simply aren’t up for the task.

ybnormal

They are led by a Militant Christian Reconstructionist who considers himself a member of the Knights Templar and believes fighting Muslims is God’s plan for him.

And what might his ‘holy grail’ be; head centurion for the emperor of the new world order?

Leslie

What a surprise, the State Dept. finds Blackwater blameless for the Sept. 16th shootings of Iraqi civilians. No need for further investigation.

Except there is videotape evidence of what happened…taken by Iraqi police stationed nearby.

susanunpc

Leslie, have the Iraqis released that videotape yet? It would behoove them to do so, I would think.

Leslie

I’ve seen the video posted, but don’t recall where? It would be great to find it and post it. But I can’t do that right now.

ybnormal

If the McClatchy article documenting Blackwater’s sickening series of performances
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/20047.html
Philip Henika links to below can be taken as an introduction, it’s likely we’ll have to wait for this video to be leaked.

Thanks for link Phil, it’s worth a complete read by all.

susanunpc

Of interest: Naomi Wolf — and, yes, I think it is that Naomi Wolf — has a diary on Blackwater that’s been in the Recommended List since yesterday at Daily Kos. It begins:

Blackwater: Are you scared yet?
by Naomi Wolf

Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 02:05:53 PM PDT

(Cross-posted at Firedoglake.)

The New York Times reported today that Blackwater, the infamous organization that has been accused of killing civilians in Iraq, “has been involved in a far higher rate of shootings while guarding American diplomats in Iraq than other security firms.” A mercenary firm in Iraq with an itchy trigger finger is bad enough. But it now appears that Blackwater’s activities may be massively expanded — and not in Iraq.

In little noticed news, Blackwater, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and Arinc were recently awarded a collective $15 billion — yes, billion — from the Pentagon to conduct global counter-narcotics operations. This means that Blackwater can be deployed to engage with citizens on a whole new level of intimacy anywhere around the world — including here at home. What is scarier than scary is that Blackwater’s overall plans are to do more and more of its armed and dangerous ‘security’ operations on U.S. soil. …

To read all, here’s the no-comment version. (I have to use this when there are over 150+ comments because that many comments are too hard on my poor little ‘puter.)

Or read the story + the 430+ comments.

(Emphasis mine.)
Phillip

More evidence that it is clear that the Iraqis do not want Americans in their country, if Iraqi security services are going to attack Blackwater (not saying they do not deserve it). We should just get out.

The more you think about it is the only reason that the Bush Administration wants to stay is to keep the access to the oil.

You can say it is to keep Iran out, but I very much doubt that the Iraqis themselves will let the Iranians dominate their country.

And you can also say that the U.S. forces need to stay in Iraq to protect the Iraqis from killing each other, but the way the U.S. has abused and destroyed this country, I doubt the Bush Admin or the U.S. military really gives a fuck about whether the Iraqis kill each other or not.

If there was not the strategic issue of oil in this country it seems more and more likely that the U.S. military would not still be there.

It is really all about oil right now. In fact, pulling back even further, the prevention of broader regional instability is only about oil, as if there was no oil there, then I believe the U.S. would not care whether these countries duke it out or not…

In fact, Petreus basically said this. He said he did not know that being in Iraq was making the U.S. safer, but then in trying to correct himself for the honest answer he then said that being in the U.S. was important to protect U.S. “interests”…. ie. oil….

they only solution to Iraq and terrorism is for the U.S. to get off foreign oil…. which is not likely under this oil industry/Saudi Arabian connected Whitehouse….
ybnormal

Here’s a good one.

TST 22 arrived at the Gray 87 intersection after TST 22 had already departed.

Why not proof read?
One couldn’t go somewhere to support one’s self while one’s self has already departed, could one?
Fred C. Dobbs

DISCLAIMER: I have been a DynCorp employee before OIF, and a DoD contractor employee from 1991 – 1995.

It’s a little obscure to me, this dividing line between a mercenary and a paid soldier in an all-volunteer army.

Fifteen years in the US Merchant Marine, doing work aboard US DoD-owned ships that was “privatized” by DoD, convinced me that I was a Mercenary Sailor.

I slept OK, thanks for asking.

That said, my services cost DoD much less per man-day than the same services would have cost using the labor of a Navy officer, when the Benefits package and ancillary Burden are considered.

Indeed, my net check was two or three times the size of a LCDR or CDR. But, from my Net I had to buy my own:

food and housing at market price when not at work;
medical care when not at work;
housing when not at work;
recreation at market price;
funeral plot at market price;
retirement;
family medical insurance;

And the List goes on.

When your military manpower is based upon conscription (and enlistments induced by threat of conscription), and you can sell the participants in that system that their service is a, “patriotic chore,” you can control your costs.

However, it is my contention that when you must bid for manpower (as other Goods and Services) in an open market, your military is going to get very expensive.

Delineate for me, if you will, the difference between an otherwise-unemployable E-3 thug in Chocolate Chip BDU’s from ‘hood and a retired E-7 thug from Appalachia working on a Blackwater contract, other than the various lines of authority, all of which lead back to DC.

Would we feel better about these people if we called them something like, oh, “The American Volunteer Group?”

Oops! That one was taken by the storied and revered “Flying Tigers,” who were paid a bonus for each Japanese aircraft destroyed.

How about, “Eagle Regiment.”

Oops! Americans employed by the RAF (in contravention of US law) before the US entry into WWII were called, “Eagle Squadron.”

These old boys were mercenaries, weren’t they?

Perchance, is the use of Aegis, DynCorp, Triple Canopy, Blackwater, et al, a predictable response to the lack of trained military manpower under arms since Poppy Bush’s reduction of the DoD from 2.1 million to 1.4 million?

(Hey, wasn’t it slick, getting every Tidewater swamp turkey in Norfolk to think that Bill Clinton was responsible for his loss of a cushy DoD job?)

Can you say, “Reduction In Force,” sports fans?

Or, even more cogently, can you say, “Don’t undertake Vast Projects with Half-Vast Thinking?”

You might find it interesting to read this document:

http://www.blackwaterblogger.com/2007/09/intro.html

Or this one:

http://www.blackwaterblogger.com/2007/09/pay1.html

susanunpc

Thank you for a contrasting viewpoint. It can’t be that all private contractors are “evil” or, because they get big contracts, solely about bilking taxpayers. We surely need private sector help for the government.

Heck, PBS Newshour featured Jim Sullivan, a private contractor that I sure wish the military would hire!

Defense Department Sticks With M-16s Despite Problems

As the Senate continues to debate military spending in Iraq, the NewsHour presents the second of three reports on how the Defense Department decides to equip U.S. troops, continuing with a look at M-16 rifles.

Sullivan’s story is fascinating, and troubling. He designed the M-16 during the Eisenhower administration — and had a hard time selling it to the military back then — but says he wishes our troops had the Russian AK-47 (in its latest version, a AK-74). Click on the link to see why.

A small example, to be sure. But the military and all branches of the government can benefit from private sector input. There just needs to be oversight and rules.

Fred C. Dobbs

I would not even begin to justify bad behavior, which I personally consider to include various sub-homicidal acts as being rude to waiters and bartenders, sounding vehicle horns after dark and refusing to pay local prostitutes after their services are rendered.

My point, which may be obscured by my verbosity, is that, in past wars we ‘Murricans have often benefited from the employment of mercenaries, and that we hold some of them in high regard.

It’s not that they ARE mercenaries in the employ of the government, rather their actions in the name of the United States which concerns me.

(When I go up the gangway, I become a mercenary sailor. I do it because I like it, they pay me a lot of scratch for my limited skills, and it’s almost never boring. My career Navy child is, in my estimation, a mercenary because no one drafted her or induced her enlistment with the cudgel of Conscription or deluded her with “Why We Fight” propaganda. She does what she does because they pay her more for her skills and education, at this point in her career, than she might make in the private sector. And, she like what she does.)

I’m not REAL wild about that lack of Accountability, either, although I’m not certain that application of UCMJ to these people would be more than a sop to our consciences. I have even less faith in the UMCJ system’s ability to dispense justice than I have for the Federal judiciary.

The Department of State’s Security Service, whose mission Blackwater augments, was probably crafted for a much lower threat level than what appears today, requiring much more vigor and dynamism and many more hands and butts than could be efficiently recruited, trained and inculcated with the DoS culture and within the Federal hiring system.

Ergo, they engaged an Entity which provides the Services or Goods efficiently and at a price consistent with the Budget for this activity, in a timely fashion.

ybnormal

Sorry, I can’t seem to stop myself.
What meaning is there in naming an assault vehicle “Bear-cat” (an animal who lives in high altitude forests and eats bamboo)?

Possible alternatives:
Since the vehicle either died, or appeared to be dead, how about road-kill-possum

Or since Blackwater is the unfunny joke of the security business, how about jack-ass-hyena

Or instead of dis-honoring the animal world, a loser vehicle hyphenated name, such as yugo-edsel
Lisa Johnson-Tschudy

I have a few questions about the Blackwater involvement/activation for Iraq and hope someone can answer them:

1. These guys are employed by the State Department to provide security? Why isn’t this a mission of the US military? The USMC provides embassy guards which are a part of the State Department. What am I missing here?

2. What is the primary mission of Blackwater in Iraq? Is it primarily to provide security for the State Department? Or, are they also being used in support of US military forces operations?

3. If they are also being used to supplement the military forces, who gives them their missions? Are those orders issued by the military directly to the operatives? Or, are those orders issued by the military to Blackwater grand high poobahs?

Simply too many questions. Since Blackwater is a private contractor, how do their conditions of involvement translate to other military contractors, such as KBR? Do the same conditions of employment exist? In other words, who does KBR receive their orders from?

What I am getting at here is the fact that our military is being made to rely on private contractors for missions they should be able to take on themselves (such as messing, construction, water purification), then wouldn’t it be more cost-efficient to increase the size of the Active Military and training our military to do these missions?

This whole thing with the contractors makes no sense whatsoever. Does anyone else wonder about these issues? Does anyone else have any answers to my questions? One thing I’ve learned, trying to find answers to questions like these at government websites is damned near impossible.

Thanks to one and all for any info/input you can provide.

ybnormal

Not an answer, but another question. Larry has written in the past about supply routes running through Shia areas. Do the Shia in these areas have any contact or interaction with security contractors? If so, what is the effect on the reliability of the supply routes?
Shirin

Lisa, Google Jeremy Scahill Blackwater. Jeremy wrote THE book on Blackwater, and if you do not want to buy and read the whole book, you will find plenty of articles and interviews on the web.

Philip Henika

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/20047.html

Blackwater guards killed 16 as U.S. touted progress
By Leila Fadel | McClatchy Newspapers

Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007

“…BAGHDAD — On Sept. 9, the day before Army Gen. David
Petraeus, the U.S. military commander in Iraq, and
U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker told Congress that things
were getting better, Batoul Mohammed Ali Hussein came
to Baghdad for the day.

A clerk in the Iraqi customs office in Diyala
province, she was in the capital to drop off and pick
up paperwork at the central office near busy al
Khilani Square, not far from the fortified Green Zone,
where top U.S. and Iraqi officials live and work. U.S.
officials often pass through the square in heavily
guarded convoys on their way to other parts of
Baghdad.

As Hussein walked out of the customs building, an
embassy convoy of sport-utility vehicles drove through
the intersection. Blackwater security guards, charged
with protecting the diplomats, yelled at construction
workers at an unfinished building to move back.
Instead, the workers threw rocks. The guards,
witnesses said, responded with gunfire, spraying the
intersection with bullets.

Hussein, who was on the opposite side of the street
from the construction site, fell to the ground, shot
in the leg. As she struggled to her feet and took a
step, eyewitnesses said, a Blackwater security guard
trained his weapon on her and shot her multiple times.
She died on the spot, and the customs documents she’d
held in her arms fluttered down the street…”
Leslie

FINALLY…the Senate will create a wartime contracting commission to investigate all the fraud, abuse, etc.

This is why we pay them the big bucks! This is what they’re supposed to do!
PrchrLady

bout damded time!!! but will it mean anything???

concerns: why no report until Jan, 09??? after elections—for benefit of whom??? also, no subpena power… must rely on congress to get. this coupled with the fact that Bush and his croneys got included into bill a RETROACTIVE clause giving bush and his minions IMMUNITY for WAR CRIMES that they have committed since 911…
http://robinstorm.blogspot.com Rob

You know I just knew that the Knights Templar would come into this some how.

Blackwater is nothing more than a gun-for-hire company that this administration allows to exist. The SEAL mentality is what made Blackwater and what gets it into trouble. If you read many of the other books on the Afghan and Iraq wars written by those who served, there is one common theme about the SEALs. They are out of the element when out of the water or all have BAs (bad attitudes) and think they know better.

Don’t take anything away from these meateaters they are highly skilled but never meant for force protection of this kind. They were always a direct action force, hence this is what you get from a direct action force…..

My problem with Blackwater and the rest of these companies is the damage done to military retentions and the damage to the code of honor within these special forces elements.

Other the rest is all BS……..
Shirin

My problem with Blackwater is the damage done to Iraqis. I don’t much care about the rest.
Mary

From that same McClatchy article (which actually talks to real Iraqis who get to tell their own stories – imagine) we find out that a Blackwater convoy 3 days earlier had a vehicle hit by an ied with two killed.

Anyone want to lay some money on scared and jittery, or possibly angry and payback against whoever, as possible players?

I think Dobbs is right – it is very hard to draw the line between paid, volunteer standing military and mercenaries and the reports are that we have done some serious recruiting among non-US citizens for the military of late too.

I also don’t see a lot of benefit in expecting the situation to be significantly better or different with US military and the UCMJ at play. Look at all the commuted sentences or findings of murder but sentences of only rank reduction, etc. And weren’t the riots last year in Afghanistan over military convoys that were flattening kids in the street and moving on?

Here’s something to chew on.

IF Bremer’s CPA Order 17 is not actually still in effect (and I think it is very possible that there is no real “legal” basis – practical and political matters being different – to argue that it is still in effect) then think the whole thing through.

Rumsfeld NEVER got a SOFA with Iraq (reports right after the elections were that he didn’t want a waiver to have to be the gov’s first political act or some such thing).

So Order 17 is the only thing that prevents Iraqis from claiming legal jurisdiction over not only the contractors – but the troops. No SOFA. Ever. Not one.

Plus an Iraqi Constitution that guarantees the Iraqi people a right to litigation. So on the civil, even if not criminal front, where do things really stand?

Well, where they really stand is the US has might makes right on its side, but it is open for a very large legal and PR issue bc no one ever bothered to get a real SOFA.

Did I mention – never ever?

Fred C. Dobbs

>>> Rumsfeld NEVER got a SOFA…

In his family they called it a, “divan.” Maybe a, “Chesterfield.”

I have been, while working cargo at a US DoD facility on foreign soil, been reminded that my conduct was regulated by the SoFA in effect at that time. I asked to actually READ the SoFA once, just to Yank Their Chain, and spent am interesting 20 minutes being upbraided by a Uniformed Oxygen Thief who will, hopefully, have a short, interesting career in Law Enforcement upon his separation from the Service.

mudkitty

Of course you don’t, Shirin.

Shirin

You reap what you sow, and so be it. But when you force others to do the reaping, there I draw the line. Get it?

mudkitty

That’s not what you said Shirin…you said you “only care about the damage done to Iraqis.” (So much for your clumsy attempt at deflection…)

That’s what you said. If true, it’s reflects badly on you, and if not true, it only makes me wonder if you’re a paid troll who comes here to make liberals and dems appear to look bad – in any case they don’t need your help, they do well enough on their own.

I care about the damage done to Iraqis, as well, but I also care about all innocent life, and I care about the damage done to the United States Constitution by rightwing republicans.

You said it, and your reaping what your sowing.
PrchrLady

mudkitty, I am not sure you are quoting Shirin correctly. when I read your lasxt post, you had quotation marks around words that I didn’t find in Shirin’s post above, unless perhaps I missed them, as may be the case. I found that what you had in quotes was slightly different, but changed meaning of words by Shirin. Please check and validate…
PrchrLady

“My problem with Blackwater is the damage done to Iraqis. I don’t much care about the rest.”-Shirin
vs.
“only care about the damage done to Iraqis.”-Mudkitty

slight but very significant difference;

Shirin

Thanks PrchrLady.

This is what I was responding to: “My problem with Blackwater and the rest of these companies is the damage done to military retentions and the damage to the code of honor within these special forces elements.”

My response: “My problem with Blackwater is the damage done to Iraqis. I don’t much care about the rest.”

I could not possibly care less about U.S. military retentions. I care even less about some supposed “code of honour” among people who are so very dedicated, and proud of their job of killing human beings.

What I DO care about is that these people rampage around Iraq like a bunch of rogue gorillas killing and maiming at will, destroying property and treating Iraqis like cockroaches under their feet. And they do so with virtually absolute impunity.

mudkitty

Sorry – s/he “doesn’t much care about” any thing other than the damage done to Iraqis (and doesn’t “much care about the rest.”) Only someone who wanted to make Muslims look egocentric would write something like that. It gives ammunition to the right-wingers.

Seriously. Check it out. It won’t take long to reread. Trolls are my expertise, and this troll is one of the best. The guise, of course, is that s/he is a “concern troll.”
Shirin

“Trolls…troll…troll.”

zzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
mudkitty

PLady – The difference is actually so insignificant
that they might as well be synonymous.
mudkitty

Only a troll would pretend not to be offended by the accusation that they are a troll. It’s standard MO.

Shirin

zzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

ybnormal

Update Today Mon Oct 1,2007 from Waxman’s Oversight Committee:

Additional Information about Blackwater

The beat goes on.
kmurr39

y dont thay get off their asses and get maching uniforms
john

“ A preliminary Iraqi investigation has concluded that there was no enemy fire, but some Iraqi witnesses have said that Iraqi commandos in nearby guard towers may have been shooting as well, possibly leading Blackwater guards to believe that militants were firing at them.”
john

“What I DO care about is that these people rampage around Iraq like a bunch of rogue gorillas killing and maiming at will, destroying property and treating Iraqis like cockroaches under their feet. And they do so with virtually absolute impunity.”
The iraqi people do this to each other, the iraqi police, army and other agencies are full of corruption. I believe the iraqi people are bad people, i’ve seen them first hand. They just want to make Americans look bad, and people like you jump on that, the first chance you get, to call Americans bad. If you think americans are so bad, why don’t you move to iraq, and live with these people you care so much about.