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The Effect of Others, and How They Affect Us

By SusanUnPC on December 21, 2008 at 12:46 AM in Current Affairs

So often, remarkable people say things that move me, provoke me, change me. Here are some recent statements I’ve heard, as well as some videos I’ve listened to lately:

Afghanistan is a place where empires go to die.

      - Patrick Buchanan, December 18, 2008

It has always struck me as stunningly stupid that a major component of the Daily Kossack and Obama arguments for getting the hell out of Iraq quickly has been so that we can instead focus our military might on Afghanistan. Then there was Obama’s petulant insistence, during both the primary and general contests, that, if the Bush administration had but concentrated on it instead of Iraq, we could have crossed the Afghan/Pakistani border to capture bin Laden nearly as easily as we can drive the I-5 mountain pass through Oregon and California. That our military overkill instruments of death would be so daunting that we could overcome the Afghans’ knowedge, for thousands of years, of every nook and cranny of that vast mountain range.

But, we have to acknowledge that Afghanistan was a handy whip to bring out whenever PEBO wanted to berate or demean another candidate who’d voted for the Iraq War. Even though he had no clue how impossible it would be to succeed in that country, let alone in the mountainous regions of northern Pakistan.

I won’t soon forget Pat Buchanan’s plain sentence that told the entire story of every nation’s failure, repeatedly throughout history, to control Afghanistan. Most certainly, the Afghans do not see the United States and NATO forces as the same forces that General Dwight Eisenhower described to the German people as Allied forces entered Germany in November 1944:

“We come as conquerors, but not as oppressors.“

Even Eisenhower’s announcement was a bit presumptuous and naive, unless he intended his statement to work towards what Chomsky calls “manufactured consent.”

Then there are these videos that I’ve listened to lately, particularly lately as I become more and more starved for real news, for edifying information, for keen observations — none which is available, except rarely.

DESCRIPTION OF Charlie Rose show:

Segment 1: Guest host Brian Lehrer talks to M.I.T. Linguist and author Noam Chomsky. His book is “Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy”.

Segment 2: Guest host David Ross talks to artist Shirin Neshat.

Segment 3: Guest host Jeffrey Toobin discusses the death penalty in the United States with Bryan Stevenson of the Equal Justice Initiative of Alabama, attorney Dennis Riordan, and Beth Wilkinson, former assistant US attorney.

LASTLY, on a complete switch of topics, I want to share with you this Charlie Rose video with Dr. Jerome Groopman who has written a remarkable book on how physicians interact (or not) with patients, how well they listen, how their own prejudices can affect the diagnoses they give out, and much more. Dr. Groopman writes regularly for The New Yorker:

  • TeakwoodKite

    as easily as we can drive the I-5 mountain pass through Oregon and California.

    Current conditions are very bad. Please drive safely on the way to your kin folk.

    Having just driven this piece of road recently, I could never compare it to the picture postcard a friend sent me of the Khyber Pass in the late 80′s.

    • WildChild

      I have at least four inches in my back yard.

      • socalannie

        I wish we did. So Cal weather is so boring.

      • http://noquarterusa.net/ NoQuarter

        There are a FEW differences.

        I wouldn’t have thousands of Taliban et al. SHOOTING AT ME FROM EVERY DIRECTION!

        (Just thought i’d mention that.)

        Unless … are there any Taliban holed up in those wild border towns between Oregon and California?

        Oregon is a little bit wild — they are all out for shooting up any state tax– but it’s mostly known for its Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, a southern Oregon town, and its tourist meccas — those stunningly beautiful, rugged wild Pacific Ocean resorts and towns and the more inland resorts with great golf courses.

        • oowawa

          if the Bush administration had but concentrated on it instead of Iraq, we could have crossed the Afghan/Pakistani border to capture bin Laden nearly as easily as we can drive the I-5 mountain pass through Oregon and California.

          Yes, that crossing from Oregon into CA on I-5 is fairly easy, UNLESS you are trying to smuggle fruit through the checkpoint. Drugs? No problem. Weapons? Welcome to California. But if you’ve got some Washington apples with you–Forget about it!

    • interested party

      Nothing but rain here, but if I lived above 3,500′, I’d prepare for some white precipitation.
      The Siskiyou and Tejon passes are both at about 4,000′; Kyber Pass is I believe a little higher.

      • http://noquarterusa.net/ NoQuarter

        It is very snowy here. My cats are quite irritated about it.

    • bemused

      Having been on the Khyber pass in 1970–It was reminiscent of a lot of secondary roads in Colorado and Oregon, except for the guys in turbans, holding ancient rifles and peeking out occasionally from behind rocks. It was like going to the 14th century.

  • TeakwoodKite

    Topology map for the Afghanistan Pakistan border
    –
    Topology Map for Interstate 5 California-Oregon border

    I was watching Jeapordy and one of questions was about the interstate highways that Eisenhower was part of building.

    • socalannie

      Teak, both links show the USA map.

  • socalannie

    Susan, I like the Pat Buchanan quote. For an old guy who has done & said some strange things in his time, he does pop out some very interesting and apt views.

  • bert

    “Afghanistan is a place where empires go to die.”
    Patrick Buchanan, December 18, 2008

    Prescient or not? Only time will tell. Right now, with sadness in my heart, I give odds to the Afghanis.

  • workingclass artist

    Interesting article NQ. Religious Fanaticism coupled with tribal recalcitrance has always been the bane of Western “Empirical” Progress…especially in this region.
    The Russians were essentially beaten by the terrain which prevented them from their usually successful tactics of obliteration. And we assisted the Freedom Fighters thinking that it would pay off later.
    Buchanan just states the obvious in a succinct manner because he reads history…And the recorded history of this Culture Clash is a long one…
    The Russians made the classic mistake of assuming that the defeat and assimilation of other Clans and tribes by EMPIRES is universal…Not all “Barbarians”
    are the same…especially when UNITED by a common cause like RELIGION…imho…Of course the Romans were similarly baffled….

    • bemused

      All very true.

    • interested party

      You might want to add the British to that list. This from the first line of Wikipedia:

      The First Anglo–Afghan War lasted from 1839 to 1842. It was one of the first major conflicts during The Great Game, the 19th century competition for power and influence in Central Asia between Great Britain and Russia, and also marked one of the major losses of the British after the consolidation of India by the British East India Company. From the British point of view, the First Anglo-Afghan War (1838–42) (often called “Auckland’s Folly”) was an unmitigated disaster.

  • Linda C.

    The Afghanis want something that everyone else wants…An honest government for themselves.

  • http://home.comcast.net/~vincep312 VinceP1974

    As luck has had it.. we did win in Afghanistan… it’s just that the barbarians fled to Islamic ally insane, ancient and Klingonesque Nuclear Pakistan. (Which I think means “Pure State”)

    What’s the answer? I dont think there is one.

    There will be no peace on Earth as long Islam compels its people to engage in Jihad and enslave their women.

  • grtphoto


    -more and more starved for real news, for edifying information, for keen observations — none which is available, except rarely.

    i couldn’t agree with this statement more, starving is right. i fear for our country, seriously. i have been beating my head against the wall, mainly having discussions with my husband about all of this non news and lies. too many people accept what is spoon fed to them with out a discerning ear. is this our fate? i feel better after hear such people as Noam chompsky speak, to know that some one with a micorphone is speaking the truth-but how many hear it?

    Thank you for your post.

  • http://home.comcast.net/~vincep312 VinceP1974

    -more and more starved for real news, for edifying information, for keen observations — none which is available, except rarely.

    Oh i dont know how true this is. The truth is easy to find if you take a little effort to find it.

    But I know from trying to inform people about Islam, Jihad, Iran, Twelvers, the impact Anti-War and Anti-American protesters have on our enemies, the truths about Obama, the fundamental reasons why the ecomomy was destroyed, and the upcoming collapse of US Dollar…

    people dont want to the truth. For various reasons.

  • Annie Oakley

    But, we have to acknowledge that Afghanistan was a handy whip to bring out whenever PEBO wanted to berate or demean another candidate who’d voted for the Iraq War. Even though he had no clue how impossible it would be to succeed in that country, let alone in the mountainous regions of northern Pakistan.

    I have watched with great interest as the liberal anti-war left pro-Brand forces painted themselves into the corner with this. They have to support Obama’s smart war no matter the costs.

  • Hot Librarian

    VinceP1974- “we ‘ did not win the war . In 2001 there was a general stalemate until USa got the co op from the Warlords.

    One night the Taliban quietly slipped away from Kabul. a classic retreat so as to reappear later when the foreigner’s guard was down. (thought they had won!) The One Eyed Mullah got away on a putt putt scooter.

    I think most Afghans want the corrupy kharzai govt out of their faces. Why should they defer to a national govt when there is no nation?

    Pakistan -whoa-dont go there.

  • Cool2it

    While I agree that Afghanistan is a potential black hole, I think in 2001 we had an opportunity to strike a real blow and get positive results in the region. Of course this would have required the administration to pursue an intelligent and flexible strategy after 9/11 but they have demonstrated that that would have been a false hope.

    At the time, I thought we should have done the following:

    1. Been quicker on the ground with a larger force. Yes, it would have been riskier for the troops but we were slow to arrive in force and even when we arrived, we had to depend too much on Afghan alliance forces. I still would have partnered with them but with us in the lead where practicable. The shock and awe of air power is temporary, largely ineffective and turns to anger of the general populace as the guerrillas hide among the people so that to kill them we kill many noncombatants and destroy their homes. There should be no surprises here.

    2. Shown a commitment to stay to rebuild and reform. I do think we had some political and sympathy capital to expend in Afghanistan and if we reduced/redeployed intelligently after the overthrow but demonstrated a real commitment to help Afghanistan build an infrastructure, I think it would had an overall positive effect. But this administration had no desire to become fully engaged in Afghanistan, as their real target as we’ve seen, was Iraq. There’s no guarantee that had we done the above, Afghanistan would not have devolved into the fragmented mess that it is currently but we had history to guide us and many Afghans who remember our support of them against the Russians. Again, we needed to show strongly that not only did we come to punish the bad guys but to help all of Afghanistan. I think it had a good chance of working.

    Despite all the good work being done by our troops and NATO forces, we have let Afghanistan slide into the conditions we see today.