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	<title>Comments on: The Effect of Others, and How They Affect Us</title>
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		<title>By: Cool2it</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097803</link>
		<dc:creator>Cool2it</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097803</guid>
		<description>While I agree that Afghanistan is a potential black hole, I think in 2001 we had an opportunity to strike a real blow and get positive results in the region.  Of course this would have required the administration to pursue an intelligent and flexible strategy after 9/11 but they have demonstrated that that would have been a false hope.

At the time, I thought we should have done the following:

1.  Been quicker on the ground with a larger force.  Yes, it would have been riskier for the troops but we were slow to arrive in force and even when we arrived, we had to depend too much on Afghan alliance forces.  I still would have partnered with them but with us in the lead where practicable.  The shock and awe of air power is temporary, largely ineffective and turns to anger of the general populace as the guerrillas hide among the people so that to kill them we kill many noncombatants and destroy their homes.  There should be no surprises here.  

2.  Shown a commitment to stay to rebuild and reform.  I do think we had some political and sympathy capital to expend in Afghanistan and if we reduced/redeployed intelligently after the overthrow but demonstrated a real commitment to help Afghanistan build an infrastructure, I think it would had an overall positive effect.  But this administration had no desire to become fully engaged in Afghanistan, as their real target as we&#039;ve seen, was Iraq.  There&#039;s no guarantee that had we done the above, Afghanistan would not have devolved into the fragmented mess that it is currently but we had history to guide us and many Afghans who remember our support of them against the Russians.  Again, we needed to show strongly that not only did we come to punish the bad guys but to help all of Afghanistan.  I think it had a good chance of working.

Despite all the good work being done by our troops and NATO forces, we have let Afghanistan slide into the conditions we see today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree that Afghanistan is a potential black hole, I think in 2001 we had an opportunity to strike a real blow and get positive results in the region.  Of course this would have required the administration to pursue an intelligent and flexible strategy after 9/11 but they have demonstrated that that would have been a false hope.</p>
<p>At the time, I thought we should have done the following:</p>
<p>1.  Been quicker on the ground with a larger force.  Yes, it would have been riskier for the troops but we were slow to arrive in force and even when we arrived, we had to depend too much on Afghan alliance forces.  I still would have partnered with them but with us in the lead where practicable.  The shock and awe of air power is temporary, largely ineffective and turns to anger of the general populace as the guerrillas hide among the people so that to kill them we kill many noncombatants and destroy their homes.  There should be no surprises here.  </p>
<p>2.  Shown a commitment to stay to rebuild and reform.  I do think we had some political and sympathy capital to expend in Afghanistan and if we reduced/redeployed intelligently after the overthrow but demonstrated a real commitment to help Afghanistan build an infrastructure, I think it would had an overall positive effect.  But this administration had no desire to become fully engaged in Afghanistan, as their real target as we&#8217;ve seen, was Iraq.  There&#8217;s no guarantee that had we done the above, Afghanistan would not have devolved into the fragmented mess that it is currently but we had history to guide us and many Afghans who remember our support of them against the Russians.  Again, we needed to show strongly that not only did we come to punish the bad guys but to help all of Afghanistan.  I think it had a good chance of working.</p>
<p>Despite all the good work being done by our troops and NATO forces, we have let Afghanistan slide into the conditions we see today.</p>
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		<title>By: Hot Librarian</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097587</link>
		<dc:creator>Hot Librarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097587</guid>
		<description>VinceP1974- &quot;we &#039; did not win the war . In 2001 there was a general stalemate until USa got the co op from the Warlords.

One night the Taliban quietly slipped away from Kabul. a classic retreat so as to reappear later when the foreigner&#039;s guard was down. (thought they had won!) The One Eyed Mullah got away on a putt putt scooter.

I think most Afghans want the corrupy kharzai govt out of their faces. Why should they defer to a national govt when there is no nation?

Pakistan -whoa-dont go there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VinceP1974- &#8220;we &#8216; did not win the war . In 2001 there was a general stalemate until USa got the co op from the Warlords.</p>
<p>One night the Taliban quietly slipped away from Kabul. a classic retreat so as to reappear later when the foreigner&#8217;s guard was down. (thought they had won!) The One Eyed Mullah got away on a putt putt scooter.</p>
<p>I think most Afghans want the corrupy kharzai govt out of their faces. Why should they defer to a national govt when there is no nation?</p>
<p>Pakistan -whoa-dont go there.</p>
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		<title>By: oowawa</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097345</link>
		<dc:creator>oowawa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097345</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;if the Bush administration had but concentrated on it instead of Iraq, we could have crossed the Afghan/Pakistani border to capture bin Laden nearly as easily as we can drive the I-5 mountain pass through Oregon and California.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, that crossing from Oregon into CA on I-5 is fairly easy, UNLESS you are trying to smuggle fruit through the checkpoint.  Drugs?  No problem.  Weapons?  Welcome to California.  But if you&#039;ve got some Washington apples with you--Forget about it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>if the Bush administration had but concentrated on it instead of Iraq, we could have crossed the Afghan/Pakistani border to capture bin Laden nearly as easily as we can drive the I-5 mountain pass through Oregon and California.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, that crossing from Oregon into CA on I-5 is fairly easy, UNLESS you are trying to smuggle fruit through the checkpoint.  Drugs?  No problem.  Weapons?  Welcome to California.  But if you&#8217;ve got some Washington apples with you&#8211;Forget about it!</p>
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		<title>By: Annie Oakley</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097306</link>
		<dc:creator>Annie Oakley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097306</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But, we have to acknowledge that Afghanistan was a handy whip to bring out whenever PEBO wanted to berate or demean another candidate who’d voted for the Iraq War. Even though he had no clue how impossible it would be to succeed in that country, let alone in the mountainous regions of northern Pakistan.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I have watched with great interest as the &lt;strike&gt;liberal anti-war left&lt;/strike&gt; pro-Brand forces painted themselves into the corner with this. They have to support Obama&#039;s smart war no matter the costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But, we have to acknowledge that Afghanistan was a handy whip to bring out whenever PEBO wanted to berate or demean another candidate who’d voted for the Iraq War. Even though he had no clue how impossible it would be to succeed in that country, let alone in the mountainous regions of northern Pakistan.</p></blockquote>
<p>I have watched with great interest as the <strike>liberal anti-war left</strike> pro-Brand forces painted themselves into the corner with this. They have to support Obama&#8217;s smart war no matter the costs.</p>
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		<title>By: NoQuarter</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097304</link>
		<dc:creator>NoQuarter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097304</guid>
		<description>It is very snowy here. My cats are quite irritated about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is very snowy here. My cats are quite irritated about it.</p>
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		<title>By: NoQuarter</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097299</link>
		<dc:creator>NoQuarter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097299</guid>
		<description>There are a FEW differences.


I wouldn&#039;t have thousands of Taliban et al. SHOOTING AT ME FROM EVERY DIRECTION!

(Just thought i&#039;d mention that.)

Unless ... are there any Taliban holed up in those wild border towns between Oregon and California?  

Oregon is a little bit wild -- they are all out for shooting up any state tax-- but it&#039;s mostly known for its Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, a southern Oregon town, and its tourist meccas -- those stunningly beautiful, rugged wild Pacific Ocean resorts and towns and the more inland resorts with great golf courses.


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a FEW differences.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t have thousands of Taliban et al. SHOOTING AT ME FROM EVERY DIRECTION!</p>
<p>(Just thought i&#8217;d mention that.)</p>
<p>Unless &#8230; are there any Taliban holed up in those wild border towns between Oregon and California?  </p>
<p>Oregon is a little bit wild &#8212; they are all out for shooting up any state tax&#8211; but it&#8217;s mostly known for its Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, a southern Oregon town, and its tourist meccas &#8212; those stunningly beautiful, rugged wild Pacific Ocean resorts and towns and the more inland resorts with great golf courses.</p>
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		<title>By: interested party</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097274</link>
		<dc:creator>interested party</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097274</guid>
		<description>You might want to add the British to that list.  This from the first line of Wikipedia:
&lt;blockquote&gt;The First Anglo–Afghan War lasted from 1839 to 1842. It was one of the first major conflicts during The Great Game, the 19th century competition for power and influence in Central Asia between Great Britain and Russia, and also marked one of the major losses of the British after the consolidation of India by the British East India Company. From the British point of view, the First Anglo-Afghan War (1838–42) (often called &quot;Auckland&#039;s Folly&quot;) was an unmitigated disaster.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might want to add the British to that list.  This from the first line of Wikipedia:</p>
<blockquote><p>The First Anglo–Afghan War lasted from 1839 to 1842. It was one of the first major conflicts during The Great Game, the 19th century competition for power and influence in Central Asia between Great Britain and Russia, and also marked one of the major losses of the British after the consolidation of India by the British East India Company. From the British point of view, the First Anglo-Afghan War (1838–42) (often called &#8220;Auckland&#8217;s Folly&#8221;) was an unmitigated disaster.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: VinceP1974</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097233</link>
		<dc:creator>VinceP1974</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097233</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;-more and more starved for real news, for edifying information, for keen observations — none which is available, except rarely.&lt;/em&gt;


Oh i dont know how true this is.  The truth is easy to find if you take a little effort to find it. 

But I know from trying to inform people about Islam, Jihad, Iran, Twelvers, the impact Anti-War and Anti-American protesters have on our enemies, the truths about Obama, the fundamental reasons why the ecomomy was destroyed, and the upcoming collapse of US Dollar... 

people dont want to the truth.  For various reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>-more and more starved for real news, for edifying information, for keen observations — none which is available, except rarely.</em></p>
<p>Oh i dont know how true this is.  The truth is easy to find if you take a little effort to find it. </p>
<p>But I know from trying to inform people about Islam, Jihad, Iran, Twelvers, the impact Anti-War and Anti-American protesters have on our enemies, the truths about Obama, the fundamental reasons why the ecomomy was destroyed, and the upcoming collapse of US Dollar&#8230; </p>
<p>people dont want to the truth.  For various reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: grtphoto</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097221</link>
		<dc:creator>grtphoto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097221</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;
-more and more starved for real news, for edifying information, for keen         observations — none which is available, except rarely.&lt;/em&gt;

i couldn&#039;t agree with this statement more, starving is right.  i fear for our country, seriously.  i have been beating my head against the wall, mainly having discussions with my husband about all of this non news and lies.  too many people accept what is spoon fed to them with out a discerning ear.  is this our fate?  i feel better after hear such people as Noam chompsky speak, to know that some one with a micorphone is speaking the truth-but how many hear it? 

Thank you for your post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em><br />
-more and more starved for real news, for edifying information, for keen         observations — none which is available, except rarely.</em></p>
<p>i couldn&#8217;t agree with this statement more, starving is right.  i fear for our country, seriously.  i have been beating my head against the wall, mainly having discussions with my husband about all of this non news and lies.  too many people accept what is spoon fed to them with out a discerning ear.  is this our fate?  i feel better after hear such people as Noam chompsky speak, to know that some one with a micorphone is speaking the truth-but how many hear it? </p>
<p>Thank you for your post.</p>
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		<title>By: VinceP1974</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097208</link>
		<dc:creator>VinceP1974</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097208</guid>
		<description>As luck has had it.. we did win in Afghanistan... it&#039;s just that the barbarians fled to Islamic ally insane, ancient and Klingonesque Nuclear Pakistan. (Which I think means &quot;Pure State&quot;)

What&#039;s the answer? I dont think there is one.

There will be no peace on Earth as long Islam compels its people to engage in Jihad and enslave their women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As luck has had it.. we did win in Afghanistan&#8230; it&#8217;s just that the barbarians fled to Islamic ally insane, ancient and Klingonesque Nuclear Pakistan. (Which I think means &#8220;Pure State&#8221;)</p>
<p>What&#8217;s the answer? I dont think there is one.</p>
<p>There will be no peace on Earth as long Islam compels its people to engage in Jihad and enslave their women.</p>
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		<title>By: bemused</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097188</link>
		<dc:creator>bemused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097188</guid>
		<description>All very true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All very true.</p>
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		<title>By: bemused</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097187</link>
		<dc:creator>bemused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097187</guid>
		<description>Having been on the Khyber pass in 1970--It was reminiscent of a lot of secondary roads in Colorado and Oregon, except for the guys in turbans, holding ancient rifles and peeking out occasionally from behind rocks. It was like going to the 14th century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been on the Khyber pass in 1970&#8211;It was reminiscent of a lot of secondary roads in Colorado and Oregon, except for the guys in turbans, holding ancient rifles and peeking out occasionally from behind rocks. It was like going to the 14th century.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda C.</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097170</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097170</guid>
		<description>The Afghanis want something that everyone else wants...An honest government for themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Afghanis want something that everyone else wants&#8230;An honest government for themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: workingclass artist</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097144</link>
		<dc:creator>workingclass artist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097144</guid>
		<description>Interesting article NQ. Religious Fanaticism coupled with tribal recalcitrance has always been the bane of Western &quot;Empirical&quot; Progress...especially in this region.
The Russians were essentially beaten by the terrain which prevented them from their usually successful tactics of obliteration. And we assisted the Freedom Fighters thinking that it would pay off later.
Buchanan just states the obvious in a succinct manner because he reads history...And the recorded history of this Culture Clash is a long one...
&lt;em&gt;The Russians made the classic mistake of assuming that the defeat and assimilation of other Clans and tribes by EMPIRES is universal...Not all &quot;Barbarians&quot;
are the same...especially when UNITED by a common cause like RELIGION...imho...Of course the Romans were similarly baffled....&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article NQ. Religious Fanaticism coupled with tribal recalcitrance has always been the bane of Western &#8220;Empirical&#8221; Progress&#8230;especially in this region.<br />
The Russians were essentially beaten by the terrain which prevented them from their usually successful tactics of obliteration. And we assisted the Freedom Fighters thinking that it would pay off later.<br />
Buchanan just states the obvious in a succinct manner because he reads history&#8230;And the recorded history of this Culture Clash is a long one&#8230;<br />
<em>The Russians made the classic mistake of assuming that the defeat and assimilation of other Clans and tribes by EMPIRES is universal&#8230;Not all &#8220;Barbarians&#8221;<br />
are the same&#8230;especially when UNITED by a common cause like RELIGION&#8230;imho&#8230;Of course the Romans were similarly baffled&#8230;.</em></p>
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		<title>By: bert</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/9110/the-effect-of-others-and-how-they-affect-us/#comment-1097134</link>
		<dc:creator>bert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=9110#comment-1097134</guid>
		<description>&quot;Afghanistan is a place where empires go to die.&quot;
Patrick Buchanan, December 18, 2008

Prescient or not? Only time will tell. Right now, with sadness in my heart, I give odds to the Afghanis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Afghanistan is a place where empires go to die.&#8221;<br />
Patrick Buchanan, December 18, 2008</p>
<p>Prescient or not? Only time will tell. Right now, with sadness in my heart, I give odds to the Afghanis.</p>
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