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The First War of 2009

By Larry Johnson on December 29, 2008 at 3:10 AM in Current Affairs

(bumped up from Saturday by Susan)

Israel and India are in a race to see which will start the first war of 2009. Both countries will use the actions and threats of terrorists to justify their attacks. Israel got off the starting line today with strikes in Gaza;

Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from the Gaza Strip pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of airstrikes Saturday, killing more than 200 people and wounding nearly 400 in the single bloodiest day of fighting in years.
Most of those killed were security men, but an unknown number of civilians were also among the dead. Hamas said all of its security installations were hit, threatened to resume suicide attacks, and sent at least 70 rockets and mortar shells crashing into Israeli border communities, according to the Israeli military. One Israeli was killed and at least six people were hurt.

I don’t believe that Israel needs to endure rocket attacks. But it is worth noting the disparity in the casualties. Hamas fired 70 rockets and mortars and killed one Israeli. The Israelis strike back and kill more than 200 people. There is a bit of irony in this conflict. The Palestinians in Gaza inhabit an area that reminds me a bit of the Warsaw Ghetto. I do not believe you can subject folks to inhuman conditions such as exist in Gaza and then expect them to be peaceful. I am not arguing that Hamas has a right to fire rockets at Israel, but the full weight of Israel’s military force has not eliminated the threat of terrorism for Israelis, particularly those who live near Gaza.

What is really worth of concern is that India is going to strike Pakistan. Pakistan has failed to turn over the people involved in planning and supporting the terrorist attacks in Mumbai. Pakistan now is sending the wrong signals–i.e., denying any responsibility. India’s deadline for action by Pakistan has passed. Oh! Did I mention both have nuclear weapons? While they are not likely to “unleash the fury” there is always the risk of the unexpected when two guys strapped with guns get into a knife fight.

Looks like Barack Obama will take office with two additional conflicts raging beyond the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Happy New Year.

  • Tricia Spiegel

    Yikes–I wish we had a President who knew what he was doing. Will this be a job for Hillary?

    • http://undercoverblackman.blogspot.com Undercover Black Man

      Don’t worry, Tricia. We’ll have one in three weeks or so.

      :^D

    • stodgie

      yeah well ubm, maybe in four years we might get one.

  • I’m a Linda too

    Yep.

    • HARP

      Groan !!

  • NoTrollZone

    And Somalia, and China and Russia and….
    I hope Obama leaves Hillary alone so she can at least do the best job possible without having to deal with his idiocy.
    Larry, I agree. The Palestinians are being treated like crap. Where are they supposed to go? They are trapped and within their forced living are violent people. Are they supposed to do hand to hand combat with hamas? Are they supposed to go and turn in these people and then be killed by hamas’ loyalists.
    So Israel just kills a whole bunch of people in retaliation.
    There seems no limit to the stupidity that occurs in the middle east.

    • http://ezinearticles.com/?Three-Basic-Parenting-Styles&id=744499 Northwest rain

      The infighting of the various factions also has a high death toll.

      What I found ironic is that Hamas at the beginning was supported by Israel as an alternative (that they could control -perhaps?) to the nasty PLO. Now the PLO is seen as a bit more moderate than Hamas.

      With a kill ratio of 200 to 1 — somehow the rest of the world might not see this as a self defense action from Israel.

      Pretty speeches will NOT overcome a blood feud that has been going on for so many generations. The 0 words might work in English but will his groping immature speech writer be able to write a speech that can be translated with the same “effect”?

      And then India — some heavy duty SKILLED diplomatic efforts are needed. It almost seems that elements within Pakistan want to start an all out war.

      And the stupid voters chose a show horse with a pretty voice and not a hell of a lot more.

      I’d like to know who the hell is paying for Obama’s expensive Hawaiian vacation – $9 million house etc. etc. Anyone who has been to Hawaii KNOWS that this is not a cheap vacation.

      • NoTrollZone

        I have never understood the Israeli’s outlook on the Palestinians.
        I never understand this side of human behavior.
        Truly, if any group of people could have knowledge of what it is like to be oppressed and
        hated and treated in an absolutely hideous manner, it is the Jews who survived the Holocaust.
        You would think that this experience would teach a people deep compassion for those in human rights plights.
        Instead, Israel co-opts the Palestinian’s home and declares it their own. And thus begins a war that seems it will never end (with artificial, limited moments of “peace”).
        I believe the Israelis need to go all the way back to the time that Israel was created and acknowledge what acts they have done that harmed another peoples sovereign rights.
        No more of this, “I got mine… screw you.”
        Perhaps, if they go all the way back to the beginning, a new beginning can start. Perhaps there is a way to address what the Israelis want and the Palestinians want. It does not have to be mutually exclusive. The Israelis had a compelling reason to want that land. Can they make a case for it to the Palestinians. Can they mediate to find common interest?

        • nm

          The Israelis taught the Palistineans everything they know about terrorism.

          • Patrick Walker

            And Europeans taught the Israelis how to be ubernationalistic and base their national identity on a common religion.

            You cannot blame either in a general sense. Neither can you blame India or Pakistan for reacting the way they did as well. To be forthright, I do come down a bit more critically of India because of elements such as the BJP are pushing a weak Congress government into reacting in a somewhat counterproductive way. There are many aspects of the Indian narrative that simply doesn’t pass the smell test and Pakistan can make a case to justify it’s inaction. But that’s another rant. If you look at how the official position from Delhi changed with other attacks like the Gujarati trainbombings of 2006 or the Jaipur bombings earlier this year. Again, it’s another rant.

        • xax

          My rudimentary understanding of the Middle East from ancient/biblical time until now shows that there has been extended occupations of that area by different groups at different times. Breaking it down amongst major religions there was Jewish rule, Christian rule and then Muslim rule. If you were to break it down amongst civilizations, I’m sure it would be even more fragmented with different religions (mono/polytheistic) in the mix. In effect, no one group can lay claim over that land. It’s just that the Jews have been out of power for some time and are trying to reclaim what they believe is theirs too. Agree or disagree, I’m not taking sides.

          The Jewish people have lived in that land and the general area for quite sometime, though I am no expert in Israeli studies. One of the things I found fascinating about the Jewish people is that they are excellent at melding into societies (French, German, American, British, etc) without losing their cultural identity. And it seems the bulk of them drifted off into Europe for awhile. But that cultural identity also makes them targets. I think they are not willing to be targets anymore, especially after WWII.

          200:1 sounds extreme, but I’m cautious not to let that be the tagline of this. I’m willing to bet that the reason for Israel’s low body count is that Hamas are terrible shots. (It’s cruel, I know.) The ultimate reality is: They’ll shoot at Israel and Israel will shoot back, and Hamas will shoot back again. And no amount of “let’s all just get along” is going to calm this. It’s evident by the fact that this started immediately after a truce.

          The US will either get involved backing either Israel/India/both; or we will sit back and let them kill each other. I don’t know. I just know this is complicated.

          • NoTrollZone

            agree with you xax, except for the reason as to why the life-toll is higher on the Palestinian side. Israel has a very well conditioned and outfitted army complete with state-of-the-art weaponry. The terrorists– purporting to have the Palestinians best interests at heart– do not have such organization, or technology.

        • Jim S

          Technically, it’s all the fault of the English who, post WWII decided that the Jews should have their own homeland. Where better than in Palestine. The Arabs agreed up to the time that the Jews demanded that the Palestinians had to leave and then the Brits changed their minds. One thing leads to another and the Brits are siding with Arabs that don’t want the Jews living next door. 1948 was a wonderful year.

          • Jillie

            you have no idea what you’re talking about.

            the balfour declaration, the english committment to israel, was signed in 1917, decades before ww2.

            the partition that created israel also created an arab state. it was a dual state partition, one israeli and one arab. it was adopted by the united nations, not just england. the problem was, arabs wanted it all..and still do.

            israel gave back the west bank and gaza, not a small percentage of their total land. and what did they get in return? more rockets, more death threats, more hatred.

            israel should tell the palestinians and the world to go fuck off, and then do whatever it has to do to protect itself.

            • Mary

              Uh, no, Jillie.

              Israel must respect the same standards of international conduct established by the United Nations that all other countries are expected to respect, and no longer count on the United States to veto any condemnation of irresponsible behavior in the Security Council.

              Israel follows the same rules everybody else does.

              Ask yourself: why does Iran have to satisfy UN requirements for inspections of their nuclear facilities, but Israel, who has been nuclear since Nixon days, is never expected to meet the same requirements?

              Answer: because the United States literally THREATENS any countries that push for Israel to meet international standards.

              Frankly, the WORLD should tell Israel to go fuck off, until it can satisfy international expections.

              You DO realize that even Israeli newspapers are reporting that Israel has planned this “event” secretly for 6 months, and the rocket attacks by Hamas were just the excuse they used to execute their already-planned invasion, don’t you?

              You DO realize that 7 United Nations workers were also killed in these airstrikes, don’t you?

              You DO realize that Israel would never have done this without private approval by the Bush White House, don’t you?

              Time for you to grow up, dear.

              Israel does NOT get to do whatever they want to do, whenever they want to do it, just because they have a powerful lobby in Washington DC.

              But of course they planned it for months, waited until after the election, but executed before the new president was in office, for fear they wouldn’t get tacit approval for their choices.

              Enough already, with the “Israel can do no wrong” bullshit.

              They destroyed Lebanon, too.

              • stodgie

                mary, dear, please save your sermons for sunday.

      • alee21

        It’s not because Hamas doesn’t want to kill Israelis, it’s because they use defective, third rate weaponry. If you cry wolf once too many times and violate cease-fire conditions, you can’t blame the other side for retaliation.

        • Ellen D

          The death toll is unbalanced but I can only imagine what it is like living under constant incoming rockets, whether or not anyone ends up being a casualty. I don’t think I’d last long before I’d snap.
          Our family spent 2 years in Dublin while the North was in upheaval. There were bomb threats and evacuations in Dublin Department stores and even our childrens’ school. The sad truth was that the IRA was more like organized crime (complete with drug dealing etc) than the romantic freedom fighters Irish-Americans idealized.
          Most Americans don’t realize that 911 put the IRA out of business. Americans finally put the IRA on the Terrorist list and even Ted Kennedy wouldn’t meet with Gerry Adams any more. With the supply of American funds cut off, there was no choice but to negotiate and make peace in the North to get their share.
          I’m afraid that unless there is some such unexpected turn of events in the Middle East we are doomed to watch this endless cycle.
          I often wonder if lessening the demand for oil would do for Saudi funding in the Middle East what 911 did for American IRA funding in Ireland.

          • Patrick Walker

            There is a larger problem for the Israelis.

            After each of these crackdowns, the rocketmakers (not all are controlled by Hamas, btw) simply get better and more sophisticated.

            Ranges on the rockets have increased quite a bit as have their methods of determining targets. In one Al Jazeera piece about them, it showed how the rocketmakers were using Google Earth to find targets. That’s where you learn that Tel Aviv, in it’s glorious desire to protect civilians, asked Google Earth to “grey” out Israeli military installations up to at least the time of filming (maybe still going on).

          • Liz

            Another moron that buys the lie that the IRA were drug dealers. Do you think for one minute their own community would have tolerated that? Get to know any one of them and you’ll realize how conservative they are and how the abhor drugs.

            9-11 had nothing whatsoever to do with the IRA standing down. It was a result of the peace process that had been in the works from 1993. The attack on 9-11 was at the very end of the peace process. Further, the IRA was always on a “list” with the US.

            Ted Kennedy was and always will be a useless murdering little creep.

            As for Americans funding the IRA that is another romantic and inaccurate notion of YOURS. You bought into the stupidity put out by the Brits all these years. The IRA funded themselves through businesses they managed to set up for just that purpose. While the Americans did raise money the amount was small in comparison to the IRA’s own ability to raise funds.

            If you, as you say, suffered bomb threats and evacuations in Dublin then it was at the hands of loyalists whom the IRA were fighting.

            At the end of the day, the fact that the IRA existed at all is a testament to Britain taking something that never belonged to them. They grew the IRA, if they had at the very least, treated Catholics with equality in their own society there would never have been an IRA. “When people are forced to choose, some choose to fight”.

            You should read before you spout off on something you have no idea about.

        • no kidding

          I have to wonder if the Israeli death toll is so low because they don’t give out the real death toll. They live in a country the size of a major Airport and they are surrounded by enemies — so they act as if they are invincible because to say otherwise would leave them truly volnerable.

          We will now see Israel demonstrating a tougher persona in the region because the US under Obama will no longer be Israel’s benefactor.

  • Richard

    Larry I wish you would purge the nutjobs from this blog and get back to security posts
    You used to be a credible source for such issues
    Now you have nutjobs posting tripe on the front page
    And the comments are even worse
    If that is even possible

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      Then don’t read the blog. Jesus Christ!! How difficult is this concept? If you do not like what is on this blog then piss off and go elsewhere. It is pretty simple. And I could care less what you think about what I write or don’t write. I do it to please me. Got it?

      • I’m a Linda too

        YEAH! :)

      • NCgirl

        You tell him Larry.

      • jwrjr

        The only “nutjob” that I see here is “Richard”. “If you don’t like it, don’t go there” used to be common courtesy on the web.

      • catherine

        You heard the man, Richard. Piss off!
        :D

      • Strawberrybitch

        This is why I love Larry. He’s his own man. The rest of the world can just take a flying leap.

      • wodiej

        no kidding…

  • Mandelay

    Larry, do you see the U.S. taking a positive role to help resolve these conflicts?

    • Patrick Walker

      Well, as a non-American, the answer is no.

      People in America seem to think that the rest of the planet is just stupid. American altruism, especially from US governmental or corporate institutions are highly suspect the world over which is why no matter how much grandstanding Obama does it won’t actually work. Americans do have to wake up to the fact that it is subjected to the most incessant propaganda campaign on the planet short of Pyongyang, largely because corporate controls would have the most to lose if people were actually informed. What makes the US version more problematic than Kim Jong Il’s lies in the fact that it’s not state-sponsored, although the state has been coopted by the same rhetoric as most of the elites.

      Globalism is good. Capitalism is perfection. Democracy and capitalism coexist. That type of nonsense.

      Obama’s supposedly new-found internationalism might work for a while, but I’ve noticed that Obama is singing from the same Republocrat hymnbook the rest of them do. It won’t be long before the rest of the world realizes that the soaring rhetoric was nothing but the same-old status quo bullsh*t in a silk handbag.

      For example, Barack Obama went before AIPAC last May and was more hawkish than Clinton. Heck, he was more hawkish than virtually ALL of the Republican candidates at the time. This, in spite of the widespread belief from his blind supporters that Obama was somehow better than Clinton. In the most notorious example of that Obama’s f*ckup was his insistence that Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel.

      I bet that went over really well in the State Department…

  • http://theheraclitanfire.blogspot.com/ Craig Della Penna

    Larry:

    Let’s pause just a moment for a few facts:

    In 2008 from January through November Hamas has launched 1,212 rockets and 1,290 mortar shells from Gaza into southern Israel. I don’t have statistics on how many Israelis have been killed or wounded though I’m sure you can get them.

    Hamas, as you well know, is liberally supplied with weapons by Iran and actively encouraged to be their proxy army (along with Hezbollah) in their endless war on the Jews.

    No one here is pure, no one has the right of it, no one is blameless…

    The blood of all the innocents – Palestinian and Israeli – is on everyone’s hands

    … and how do you think this ends? Greater Israel annexing the entire West Bank? The slaughter all the Jews – “From the river to the sea”? A nuclear exchange between the Muslims and the Jews that turns the entire Middle East into a sea of glass?

    Maybe it’s time to stop the revenge circus and start thinking about something different…

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      Actually, despite firing so many rockets and mortars very few Israelis have been killed. At a minimum that means Hamas is a lousy damn bunch of shooters. It is a fact that more Palestinians than Israelis die in any given year from violence. It also is a fact that the terrorist strikes by Hamas continue despite Israeli military action. I don’t think terrorism is something that can be eliminated merely through military force. I think the situation in Israel is proof of that.

      • Ron

        Larry, Craig has a good point and you don’t get it. I’m very surprised at your post because it shows such a lack of understanding.

        Israel’s strike against Hamas was way overdue and they asked for it. They’ve been shelling Israel since the Gush Kativ eviction of Israelis from Gaza in 2005, over 3.5 years ago. That the casualties from their rocket and mortar attacks are light is not the point. The point you’re missing is that the Israelis living near Gaza have been terrorized for 1300 days. Hamas randomly targeted civilians.

        Hamas and the Palestinians need to know that if they commit terror against innocent civilians, there will be a price to pay.

        • stodgie

          if i ever had sympathy for hamas, i no longer do. so they are sloppy terrorists. that doesn’t change the fact they are terrorists. this is not to say that i agree with israeli policy. i don’t. over time however i have less and less sympathy for hamas. for the palestinians yes i have great sympanthy.

          • NoTrollZone

            yes, your great compassion for the Palestinians is reflected in your other
            well-thought out remarks.
            pffft.

            • stodgie

              notroll, if compassion bit you on the butt, you still wouldn’t know it. what a pathetic joke you are posturing on here like you all that. sounds so obot!

              • NoTrollZone

                pfffft. Yes, wishing for a solution to the
                Palestinian/ Israeli crisis is a base
                desire on my part. Lucky for us all you are here to elevate the conversation.
                And I think you are a troll to attack long time posters here simply for the hell of it. You might want to try reading the original post and then attacking Larry for his words as well.

                • stodgie

                  notroll, you and your pathetic pffft! so sad! and sucking up to larry! won’t work! you don’t elevate this conversation. don’t flatter yourself.

        • JGalt

          I agree completely. The Israelis are where they are on the basis of a treaty. They did not start the original war. I am sick of them being blamed for not being able to coexist with people who claim the only good Israeli is a dead Israeli and kill woman, children indiscriminately, teaching their children hatred and violence. The Palestinians are existing under miserable conditions because of choices made by their own people. Maybe the only solution is to eliminate Hamas as Israel is doing so that the Palestinians and Israelis can coexist as human beings rather than being harranged into enmity at every turn. I see no sign that the Israelis would turn their back on a peaceful solution. They have reached out first several times and be bombed and murdered for their pains.

          • TeakwoodKite

            eliminate Hamas ?

            To a larger extent are you are saying eliminate those that support Hamas?

            Iran, large sections of Lebanon,Syria…the Saudi’s ?

            What I have not seen mentioned is the victimhood that is Gaza, the PLO and Hamas have not shown any real desire to accept any peace. And other states in the region have used it for all sorts of reasons that nothing to do with obtaining peace in the region.

      • alee21

        You don’t live in Southern Israel. Otherwise, you will likely have a different perspective.

        Now is not the time to point the finger.

        What do you think Israel should do??

        • nm

          Brotherly compassion would be a good place to start. Haifa is a city at peace because the Mayor sees Arabs as citizens.

      • NoTrollZone

        Larry, I wish you would rejoin this discussion.
        As you probably have some ideas on how the conflict between Israel and Palestinians can be
        addressed.

      • kgirl1028

        Larry is there anyway you could divide the site into Topics that way if people like Richard doesn’ want to read “tripe” he would not have too. I don’t mind the set up personally, but maybe he has a point. I just started coming to this site during the elections, and so obama is my main interest but hey we could be annoying, the regulars. Maybe you can have a section that is all security posts and a no comment zone or one with strict controls (as in must stay on topic). And then have section with all the articles and that allows comments, that way people can choose what they want to read. Anyway I know absolutely nothing about mainting a site or paying for it, so please don’t be offended thinking this is a complant, this is just a suggestion. Some of your original members just might feel as if Clinton supporters have taken over their board and i am a sap who ultimately wants everyone to be happy including your origial regulars.

  • Mad Mike

    How in the hell do you know who in the hell fired how many rockets and under who’s orders. You don’t.

    And the AP article is supposed to be a news article but the third word is a propaganda justification.

    “Israeli warplanes _retaliating_ for rocket fire from the Gaza Strip…

    Why would anyone believe anything any Israeli said concrening Palistinians much less print it?

    • http://theheraclitanfire.blogspot.com/ Craig Della Penna

      Try the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Of course if you believe that everyone is lying, then you can’t believe anything anyone says and you have no basis for talking about anything – classic reductio ad absurdam.

      In the real world the Israeli MFA publishes real statistics because, if they published false ones, everyone from Hamas through the BBC would be all over them for lying.

      I haven’t yet heard anyone who would know challenge the Israeli MFA numbers, have you?

      Q.E.D.

      • NoTrollZone

        What difference can this possibly make? Do you think that the majority of the Palestinians are sending these missiles? The majority of the Palestinians are dirt, dirt poor. They are living
        in conditions that are abhorrent.
        So terrorists are sending missiles into Israel.
        Of course that has to stop. And Israel could do a lot of things to make it stop– including treating the Palestinians with some degree of decency.

        • stodgie

          they voted for hamas notrollzone and they give them enough support to go on with their activies. your pathetic tripe doesn’t fly.

          • NoTrollZone

            you’re just a silly troll. abandon NoQuarter and go back under your rug.

            • stodgie

              notroll, i post here all the time and you are the troll, little fellah. sucking up to larry won’t help you here.

    • stodgie

      and we should believe hamas, mike? if so then i have a bridge in brooklyn for you.

  • Shtuey Shtuey

    I think that might be an overly simplistic take on Gaza. Let’s not forget that historically Israel was the Palestinians’ largest benefactor. With the billions of dollars and materials from Israel, the UN, and the World Bank, that went into the hands of Fatah (the PLO) over the years there should be no one without housing, running water, sanitation, and access to healthcare. I do notice that the Fatah leadership wears fine Italian suits and drives German cars. This is why Hamas leveraged public opinion in Gaza.

    Hamas never honored the ceasefire, with rockets regularly falling on S’derot and other towns. Though you are correct that the casualties have been more on the Palestinian side. But this is not due to a lack of desire on the part of Hamas to kill Jews.

    The uptick by Israel I see as being more about Olmert wanting Kadima to look tough in the face of rising Likud popularity. He’s been a do nothing so naturally he wants to look like he’s doing something, if only to help worthless Kadima in the elections.

    The real issue is this: You cannot expect Israel to negotiate with parties dedicated to her destruction. There is also no element in the Palestinian body politic that is not dedicated to the notion that Israel should be destroyed. Does Fatah recognize Israel’s right to exist? No. Does Abbas continue to hold ceremonies to mark the “Great Tragedy?” aka Israeli Independence Day? Yes.

    This cycle of death and suffering is not going to stop until the world community isolates and dismantles Fatah and Hamas, both of which (more so by Fatah) have gained tactical advantage by keeping their people in abject poverty as political and propaganda leverage. That is the greatest crime, and greatest shame.

    Israel’s inconsistent policies, tearing down olive groves, building housing in unauthorized areas, and soldiers using Arabs as human shields against rock throwers doesn’t help. There’s plenty of guilt to go around, but until the thugs are no longer controlling the Palestinian body politic, Israel has no incentive to sit down at the table,

    • NoTrollZone

      “Israel was the Palestinians largest benefactor?”
      Are you kidding? Do you think the Palestinians see it that way? If I put you in a jail and give you bread and water, am I your “greatest benefactor?”
      Please…. cut it out.

      • Shtuey Shtuey

        Just another low information obtuse know nothing about nothing. Get your facts straight instead of ingesting propaganda. The people of course don’t see it because the leaders keep it. That’s the point moron. Try reading next time knee-jerker.

        • NoTrollZone

          but you know nothing and post nothing with any
          information. so you aren’t worth reading.
          Maybe you should go to an Obama site.

        • NoTrollZone

          Perhaps you should try reading the post before you open your ignorant pie hole.
          Is that stench coming from your pie hold.

          Ewww.. it’s really nasty.
          A true Obama stench, me thinks.

          • rolling_thunder

            Shtuey Shtuey is not an OBOT

            • http://noquarterusa.net/ NoQuarter

              Schtuey is a writer for NoQuarter.

              • NoTrollZone

                I thought there was a “schtuey” who was a real poster and a troll who goes by the nam
                “schtuey schtuey”, no?

                • Idiocracy08

                  I don’t think it’s very nice for a writer to call a regular on this site, who is a supporter of this site and not a troll, a moron or kneejerker.

      • stodgie

        notrollzone, stop excusing Hamas. i am sick of that bull. both sides are at fault. if you behave like a terrorist, then you damn well are one. grow up!

        • NoTrollZone

          oh shut up, idiot troll.
          Supporting the Palestinians is not giving a stamp of approval to Hamas or terrorism.
          You grow up, ignorant twit.
          And please grow up somewhere else. Go worship Obama somewhere we don’t have to deal with the stink.

        • NoTrollZone

          put a sock in it stodgie. It is troll behavior to insult rather than discourse– and that’s the problem with responding to you people. I have no excuse for Hamas. Nor did I say they weren’t terrorists. If this post was about the merits of 2% cottage cheese versus 1% cottage cheese, your post would still have the same obnoxious tone to it.
          I’m sorry I even reply to you people– I don’t usually. When I do, I sometimes descend to your level
          and hurl back the snotty remarks.
          I apologize to Larry for any remarks I make here that are on the level of the trolls.

          • stodgie

            taking sides doesn’t work in international relations. bush made that mistake. fortunately clinton didn’t. now you no troll, you make no sense and then try for the self righteous ploy. it won’t fly just like your false conclusions.

      • SFIndie

        Sounds like you’re blaming Israel for the creation of the Palestinian refugee camps. If the Arabs had accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel. The responsibility for the refugee problem rests with the Arabs. They did not want, and have never wanted, peace with Israel. They want Israel wiped off the face of the earth. They allowed the creation of the camps in the hopes of gaining the sympathy and support of the world.

        All of the Arab states could have easily received the refugees. What do you think happened to the 820,000 Jewish refugees who were expelled from their homes in Arab countries? 586,000 were resettled in Israel at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions.

        Most Jewish refugees traveled hundreds, even thousands, of miles to a new, tiny country whose inhabitants spoke a different language. Most Arab refugees never left Palestine at all; they traveled a few miles to the other side of the truce line, remaining inside the vast Arab nation that they were part of linguistically, culturally and ethnically. And yet, not one of the Arab countries took their brethren in.

        Since 1948, Israel has existed surrounded by countries that want to see this tiny country destroyed. And yet, they still get blamed for the Palestinian refugee problem. They still get blamed for not being able to make peace with people who wish them dead.

        Always, the blame is on Israel.

        • NoTrollZone

          SFIndie,
          first thank you for an intelligent differing
          opinion. These trolls are hideous.

          But let me ask you, why should the Arabs have accepted the l947 UN resolution?

          And, frankly I hardly ever see Israel blamed for the Israel-Palestinian conflict. I always see pro-Israel reports. Even when the cost of life is greater on the Palestinian side– I always see Israel portrayed as the victim.

          I am no cheerleader for the Arab countries that leave the Palestinian refugees in abyssmal conditions.

          I’m not thrilled with either party to this conflict. I am just tired of seeing the
          pro-Israel news with no comment on the plight of the Palestinians.

          They were removed from their land against their will. That fact can not be changed.
          Can the UN appropriate people’s land from them?
          That is not right.

          Hell, America did the same with the native Americans. We pushed them and killed them off and put them in some of the harshest environment conditions in our country. We still deny treaty rights, still deny their status as sovereign people– in any but the most half-baked way.

          That doesn’t make it right.

          • SFIndie

            why should the Arabs have accepted the l947 UN resolution?

            The British tried to work out an agreement acceptable to both Arabs and Jews, but their insistence on the former’s approval guaranteed failure because the Arabs would not make any concessions. The British subsequently turned the issue over to the UN in February 1947.

            They were removed from their land against their will.

            The Palestinians left their homes in 1947-49 for a variety of reasons. Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leaders’ calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle.

            I hardly ever see Israel blamed for the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

            Just read some of the comments on this post. They are hardly an anomaly. They represent a widespread belief by many people in this country.

            America did the same with the native Americans.

            You know nothing of the history of Israel if you are trying to compare what this country did to Native American Indians to the problem of Palestinian refugees. The refugees and the refugee camps were created by the Arabs.

            • NoTrollZone

              I’d appreciate it if you’d drop the insults.
              That was the problem with this thread from the beginning. Insults instead of dialogue.

              The reasons you list for the Palestinians who
              “left their homes” are tantamount to being removed.
              That’s simple logic. If you leave to avoid being in a war, being in the cross-hairs of a war then you are essentially moving against your will.

              And the analogy to Native Americans stands. They also left their homes to avoid being killed… which is what war is all about. Many Indian leaders agreed to the reservations, because they had no choice. Do you honestly think that the Palestinians chose to be put into camps? That this was some brilliant strategy on their part to live separate from their birthplace?

              Obviously you have strong feelings about Israel.
              That’s fine. Your right. But don’t close your eyes to the suffering that is happening in that region. It is a wrong, pure and simple. And Israel has a huge part in it.

              • jvsp

                “The reasons you list for the Palestinians who
                “left their homes” are tantamount to being removed.
                That’s simple logic. If you leave to avoid being in a war, being in the cross-hairs of a war then you are essentially moving against your will.”

                Exactly right. They, the Palestinian Arabs, were coerced into leaving by their own leaders and by the Arab nations(AN) threatening war. And then, when the AN failed to achieve their objection, the destruction of the Zionists, they refused to assimilate the very people they had coerced into leaving.

                • jvsp

                  objective

        • rw

          “Sounds like you’re blaming Israel for the creation of the Palestinian refugee camps. If the Arabs had accepted the 1947 UN resolution”

          How easy it is to tell others to accept being displaced from their land because of a UN resolution. Would it be easy for Americans to accept a UN directive validating Mecha’s claim to the US southwest being returned to Mexico because of “historic ties”?

          • jvsp

            Displaced? The Palestinians are the only “refugees” who, far from being driven out by hostilities and displaced by violence, left at the behest of THEIR own leaders for the reason that it was promised that their leaving would help further the war against Israel. The idea being promoted was that Israel would be quickly destroyed and the Palestinians would be able to return and take possession of their homes again. Further, it was suggested that those that did not flee would be seen in a less than favorable light. When things didn’t play out as the Arabs had hoped, the idea of the Arab nations welcoming the “refugees” was out of the question. It was more politically advantageous for the Arab nations to refuse to accept those they had encouraged to leave.

            Lastly, the oft spit rejoinder is to misconstrue events so as to cite the Dir Yassin “episode” as being a massacre and then to claim that this was what Israel had planned for the Palestinian population as a whole (which is exactly how the aforementioned Arab leaders played it).

          • NoTrollZone

            Agreed rw.

    • bell’artista

      Thank you Shtuey!

      And yes, Israel has historically been Palestine’s largest benefactor.This is a quote from the article below,
      “Palestinians who are seriously ill, like Rajhah, either die in Gaza or are transferred to Israel for better care. And all but one of the Gaza Strip’s six hospitals, along with most of the clinics, rely on Israel for medicine, equipment and the payment of salaries.”

      Please see this article from the NYT from 1994:
      http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E3D71E31F935A25752C0A962958260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=all

      Things haven’t changed much since then…..Israeli’s are still helping to fund the always crumbling Palestinian infrastructure or taking them into Hadassah hospital , going as far as to off er medical care to IslamoFascist Suicide bombers whose bombs have malfunctioned…..this while schools in Gaza teach their children that Jews are vermin and banners in the street glorify Suicide Bombers.
      Why don’t the Syrians and Jordanians that want nothing to do with them help them out for once?

      On Tuesday Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Sharia criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, the code legalizes crucifixion. Nice.
      http://israelagainstterror.blogspot.com/2008/12/iran-and-hamas-do-christmas.html

      • NoTrollZone

        NO, that’s not right. The Palestinians are
        forced to live in an area that is delegated by the Israelis. They are pretty much refugees- kicked off of their homeland. What makes that right? What makes that act right?
        you quote a site called israelagainstterror and expect that it will give a non-biased opinion?
        Fer christ’s sake.

        • http://ohmyvalve.blogspot.com/ shtuey

          NoTrollZone; You clearly don’t have enough knowledge regarding the history of the region, partition, or anything since then to make anything more than a false, propaganda based argument. I would suggest starting with Fromkin’s The Peace to End All Peace” and work forward. THere is no point in having a discussion with someone who clearly has no idea what they’re talking about.

          The Israel’s didn’t create these areas. Gaza was part of Egypt. When they had the opportunity to take it back they refused. The West Bank was partitioned from what is now Israel by the UN (more territory in fact than the ’67 Green Line). Again, Israel had nothing to do with that. In 1948 the Jordanians occupied what is now the West Bank. Again, Israel had nothing to do with that. In fact, when the Israeli Army took that land from Jordan in 1967, the Arabs were ready to flee to Jordan. It was Moshe Dayan who asked them to stay. It was Israel who gave the Muslims autonomy over the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

          As I said before, with the billions of dollars that the PLO received from Israel and international bodies and NGOs there is no reason for the conditions there other than the robbery by their own leaders. The Palestinians will continue to be screwed as long as Hamas and Fatah run the show. This is not Israel’s fault.

          Do yourself a favor, don’t speak on topics of which you have no knowledge.

          • Linda C.

            You are also speaking propaganda. The Palestinians who left because of armies approaching them were not permitted back onto their land. Palestinians who stayed also had their land removed from them. No Palestinain, even though a citizen of Israel can own their own land to farm. It is a mild form of apartheid within their own country and that includes Christians not being permitted to own land.

            My friend , who is a Israeli Palestinian living in this country, had to take his new born daughter to the Israeli consulate in Chicago to get her a passport. They wanted to see the baby. So the whole family loaded up for the 5 hour drive. When they arrived, the males were searched and they had no interest in seeing the baby. They were just trying to make it difficult for them.

            The Israeli government is always playing games with peoples passports and arbitrarily play games with who they let into the country, where and when without warning or consideration.

            As far as I am concerned the leaders of both people can go live on some island somewhere. Both the movers and shakers within Israel and the Palestinian territories are not interested in peace because that means a loss of their power.

            • Mary

              Bravo!!

              Many of the Jewish settlements were illegally built on land that is PROVEN to still belong to Palestinians.

              Removal of those settlements was part of the “Two State Solution,” but Israel never complied with the agreement.

              That’s a fact, folks.

              The land is on record as still belonging to displaced Palestinians.

          • TeakwoodKite

            Fromkin’s The Peace to End All Peace

            Thanks Shtuey for the title.

            Reading through the comments for reference and books is a hobby for me. :)

            Best wishes to you and yours this season.

        • stodgie

          no troll, when did you immigrate from the middle east? wondering?

        • jvsp

          “They are pretty much refugees- kicked off of their homeland.”

          Where do you get this? Edward Said? The Palestinians were NOT forced out. They left of their own accord based on the actions of their OWN leaders. They were promised that if they “got out”, the Arab nations would “get in”, except it didn’t work out that way. The Arab nations didn’t crush Israel.

          • Strawberrybitch

            So if Obama tells you to leave your house because he plans to redestibute the wealth, you’d be okay with it? I don’t give a damn whose in charge, my house is my home, you’d have to shoot me before I’d leave. Now imagine if your house had been in your family for generations?

            • jvsp

              You are placing the onus on the Israelis as having forced out the Palestinian Arabs when the point I have forwarded is that they left at the behest of their own leaders, at the urging of the Arab nations, incited to do so by propaganda and the belief that they, the Arab nations would crush Israel, etc.

              Moreover, the Arabs actually enjoyed a monopoly on land sales which had Israelis buying land for outrageous prices. Moreover, it wasn’t even regular farmers from whom they were buying most of the time. Rather, it was absentee land owners from Egypt, etc. that were selling the land and cashing in. Further, as the British reported, much effort was expended to persuade the Arabs to stay.

              • Idiocracy08

                Says you.
                Why don’t you read up on Benny Morris? He has a different view of the situation and has been studying this for years.

                But since you won’t like what he says, you will say he’s spewing propoganda.

                • jvsp

                  –”Why don’t you read up on Benny Morris?”

                  First you suggest something for me to read, and then you state,

                  –”But since you won’t like what he says, you will say he’s spewing propoganda.”

                  Why bother suggesting something when you assert that I wont like it anyway?

                  Further, you just declare it is propaganda, and yet offer NO argument, which is rich given that you lead off your comment stating, “Says you.”

                  Perhaps it is merely that you and Benny Morris disagree with what I am asserting that makes what I am asserting “propaganda”?

                  Lastly, why bother telling me he has studied the situation for years. So what? There are those who probably disagree that have been studying the situation for years. Hooray.

    • gonzotx

      Way to call it Shtuey!

  • Mort

    Don’t worry Larry, I’m a fucking moron and I like writing stupid comments.

    • I’m a Linda too

      They never get deleted. We get to laugh over and over at your Obot silliness and unlike the “me” crowd, we like to share.

      • NoTrollZone

        tis true. But they do leave a rather nasty stench. Sometimes one has to get out a can
        of troll-be-gone.

      • Mort

        Is that why my first comment was deleted, and this comment was altered?

        Don’t worry though. I’m sure that Whitey Tape and the real birth certificate will emerge any moment now!

        • WildChild

          You must be a fucking moron if you keep calling the why’d he tape the whitey tape

    • Mort

      Real mature Larry. Change my comments instead of delete them now?

      Don’t worry. I’m sure that Whitey Tape and the real birth certificate will be out any day now!

      • benny

        Poor Mort. still whining.

  • alee21

    Bambi started his campaign way back before the financial crises and the deteriorating world scene. Probably never thought he would win. I bet if he knew what the world and US are like today, he would have thought twice about running. Now the spotlight is on Mr Empty Suit, Mr 57 states, Mr walking dead memorial day, Mr let me eat my waffles.

    I pity Bambi — he is going to have to hide behind Hillary’s bright pantsuits on the world front. Maybe he will come to his senses and resign before he does more damage?

    • ritamary

      I think everything was rigged for Obama to win from the beginning. And Obama is so full of himself, he doesn’t think there is any problem he can’t handle.

      Just look at the nonsense Obama spewed during the primaries. His years living in Indonesia as a child make him more qualified that Hillary Clinton to be president? All Hillary did as First Lady was attended tea parties?

      We are in a very sorry situation with this individual as president. With more revelations about Obama’s relationships with Gov. Blago and wheeler-dealer Tony Rezko, Obama is going to be kept really busy trying to cover his ass.

      When our country is so desperately in need of real leadership, you moronic Obots out there dug your heads in the sand and voted for the empty suit. Like an Obot acquaintance told me last week, she has no idea who Tony Rezko is, but she is starting to get a real bad “feeling” about Gov. Blago. I am more convinced everyday people get the leaders they deserve.

  • J

    Larry,

    It’s time we the U.S. stopped selling arms to the bully Israel.

    • http://ohmyvalve.blogspot.com/ shtuey

      The U.S. gives precious little to Israel. U.S. aid is but a fraction of Israel’s GNP. In fact, Israel would be better off if the U.S. stopped giving money as it would free her to export technology to countries that are willing to trade with her. Israel’s the bully?

      Save me from these bleeding hearts.

      • NCgirl

        I don’t call nearly 3 billion in aid to Israel a year “precious little.”

        • http://ohmyvalve.blogspot.com/ shtuey

          When your GNP is over 120 billion 3 billion isn’t a lot of money. When you flush 1 trillion down the tubes for Wall Street, 3 billion is not a lot of money.

          Israel pays a price for this aid in being limited to whom it can export technology, and in return the U.S. regularly sells out Israel’s security interests to the OPEC countries. This is the only currency the Saudis wanted from Bush when he went hat in hand to get them to lower oil prices.

          3 billion is not a lot of money.

          • Mary

            Uh, no, Shtuey.

            Israel is the LARGEST recipient of American foreign aide.

            At the very top of the list.

            The highest priority , compared to any other countries.

  • bell’artista

    For J and all you others who believe that Israel “stole” the Palestinian’s Homeland, please read
    Benyamin Netanyahu’s A Durable Peace
    to get your history straightened out.

    http://www.amazon.com/Durable-Peace-Israel-Place-Nations/dp/0756753619/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230423018&sr=1-1

    • J

      Israel has turned into what it used to hate the most — a Nazi bully.

      Israel with malice and forethought goads the Palestinians into anger and frustration, goading them to strike back in anger with their crude homemade rockets so then their IDF bully machine can justify their killing and maiming innocents like a knife through hot butter. Israel’s government has for months been systematically starving the residents of the Gaza strip of food and medicine. It has been documented by many neutral parties.

      The U.S. supposedly sells Israel government U.S. military arms for ‘self defense’. Israel intentionally goading unarmed Palestinians with Nazi starvation tactics like what the Nazis used against the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto like what modern day Israel’s government is doing, is inexcusable and unforgivable.

      The Israeli government has become the modern day Nazis of the Middle East. It’s time that we the U.S. stopped all weapons sales to Israel’s government!

      • http://ohmyvalve.blogspot.com/ shtuey

        You really have no idea what you’re talking about. Do you have any idea the lap of luxury the Palestinian leadership is in, driving BMW’s and Merecedes Benz’s, wearing Italian suits, and drinking champagne? Did you know that Yassir Arafat’s widow lives in a Parisian penthouse on the money that was supposed to go to the people to build housing, hospitals, schools, roads, sewers? Where did that money come from? Israel, the World Bank, and other NGOs. The terrorists take the money and the people starve. Go ahead and blame that on Israel.

        Yours is a delusional propaganda pose. The worst enemy of the Palestinian people are the people who claim to be their leaders. If the Israelis really wanted to exterminate the Palestinians as you suggest, then I promise you, every man, woman, and child would have been dead decades ago.

        Stop swallowing propaganda and learn the truth. Israel’s policies have been indecisive at best, but it is the Palestinian Authority that keeps their people starving. They are pirates and villains of the worst kind.

        • NoTrollZone

          You mean, “learn my truth” shtuey. You have no
          monopoly on the truth of a complicated issue.
          In fact, your resistance to admitting that Israel has any role in this human rights fiasco undermines your credibility.
          Using the term “bleeding hearts” is rather telling as well.
          Compassion for human suffering should be the
          starting point for this discussion. Not
          “my side is better than your side.”

          • JGalt

            Your comments are ridiculous. The starting point should be a knowledge of history. Liberal compassion is phony compassion because it makes victims and dependents. Calling a spade a spade and insisting on fair dealings and responsibility is true compassion. Your viewpoint is convoluted and complex because you are twisting it around trying to ignore history and human nature. Once you chose your side you are going to ignore what you need to ignore to be able to show that compassion. The Arab world is cynical beyond belief. They use their own people as they did the Palestinians. Hamas and the other leaders appropriate the funds and keep the people angry at outsiders to distract them. You allow yourself to be part of the problem. There can be no solution until the right of Israel to exist is recognized and accepted.

            Now we have elected a President cut from the same cloth, ready to say anything while wheeling and dealing our economy into the gutter and bartering our Nation’s independence for his own aims.

            • stodgie

              galt, exactly! the so called leaders would be out of jobs and sources of income if they settled with israel. there are so called leaders here who have the same issue. what would they would if they didn’t have their favorite cause to cry about on television.

          • gonzotx

            Read Shtuey’s post again notrol, or who ever you are. You don’t get it.

          • http://ohmyvalve.blogspot.com/ shtuey

            Compassion for the cause of the month is nothing to feel noble about. If people were really concerned about the Palestinian people they wouldn’t allow them to be controlled by the gun toting thugs posing as their leaders.

            And I made it clear that Israeli policy has not been helping matters, and that soldiers have violated international law. You should try reading, it’s cool.

            • Strawberrybitch

              So you allowed yourself to controlled by Bush when he went into Iraq? Why didn’t you stop him, you wimp? And you’re going to be controlled by Obama, why don’t you do something? And my Oma needs to burn in Hell because all 5 feet of her didn’t stop her Jewish neighbors from being rounded up and gased by Hitler, her five children be damned.

              • JM

                Yeah, right. Your name on here serves you well.

                Israel should defend itself however it deems necessary.

        • J

          My BIG bone of contention with the government of Israel is their murdering of our U.S. military personnel, both directly (USS Liberty) and indirectly (Beirut Barracks Bombing). To date, Israel has not been held to account for their wanton slaughter of U.S military personnel with their attack on the USS Liberty, and their accessory to the Beiruit Barracks Bombing by their [Mossad hierarchy] willful intentional withholding of critical intelligence to the U.S. that would have thwarted the loss of life in the Barracks Bombing.

          For Israel’s spilling of American blood alone, warrants an immediate ceasing of all U.S. military and economic aid!

          • http://ohmyvalve.blogspot.com/ shtuey

            You probably aren’t aware that days later 50 Israeli soldiers will killed in Lebanon by the same forces, under similar circumstances.

            And you can conspiracy the Liberty all you want. What difference does that make? How many of our own men have we killed? How many civilians have died from American collateral damage? Shit happens in war. It’s not pretty, it’s not fun. Why is it that only Israel must be held to account?

            More hypocrisy.

            • J

              The Israeli wanton murder of USS Liberty crewmen is NOT a friggin conspiracy. First hand accounts by survivors detail Israel’s wanton blood-lust and cold-blooded murder of U.S. military personnel.

              The True Torah Rabbis are right, the Zionist state of Israel and its wanton murder/lies/unforgivable actions are presumptuous before heaven and because of its actions the Zionist state of Israel needs to be disbanded. And that is not a conspiracy either!

              U.S. military and economic aid to Israel needs to cease and desist ASAP.

        • Idiocracy08

          You really have no idea what you’re talking about. Do you have any idea the lap of luxury the Palestinian leadership is in, driving BMW’s and Merecedes Benz’s, wearing Italian suits, and drinking champagne? Did you know that Yassir Arafat’s widow lives in a Parisian penthouse on the money that was supposed to go to the people to build housing, hospitals, schools, roads, sewers? Where did that money come from? Israel, the World Bank, and other NGOs. The terrorists take the money and the people starve. Go ahead and blame that on Israel.

          So if the money is coming from all those places, why does Israel give money to them? You know it’s only going to their leaders, why doesn’t Israel?

    • ritamary

      Netanyahu I am sure is a thoroughly unbiased source, right?

      • Mary

        Netanyahu wants to win the next election.

        He is the equivalent of our own neocons, and did NOT like Olmert’s willingness to work towards compromise or peace (ie, removal of illegal Jewish settlements).

        Netanyahu is running for election, again.

  • MrMike

    How quickly this has degenerated into a mud slinging fiasco.
    Why is the onus on Israel? Let the Palestinians make the first move for once.

    • stodgie

      the palestinians did make the first move here. that is the current problem. unfortunately they keep choosing leaders who don’t work in their best interests.

  • WildChild

    Back in the nineties conservatives used to like to point out that on the PLO web sight there was a picture of the body proper of Israel, west bank and gaza included, all under the name Palestine. This was their smoking gun proof that the PLO would settle for nothing less then all of Israel and couldn’t be trusted in a peace talk. Let us fast forward to 2004 when yours truly stumbles onto a fiftieth year anniversary book of the state Israel that has a picture in it of the body proper of Israel, west bank and gaza included all under the name of Israel. The funny part is that on the PLO web sight and in the Israel fiftieth anniversary edition the west bank and gaza weren’t labeled. It was all one country or it was all the other.

    I think that in this conflict both sides are bullshitting us. The result of their intransigence is a festering sore on the world that does nothing more then bleed all over the rest of us as it’s poison spreads into all our systems.

    It’s time to end this thing once and for all and we can do it by giving the Israeli’s and the Palestinians one simple choice: You can live together or you can die together. What they’re doing has to stop and justice must be returned to their land, one way or another. Let us give them the choice.

    • http://ohmyvalve.blogspot.com/ shtuey

      You’re not that far off really. A two state solution is never going to work, not under the current Palestinian leadership, which is dedicated to destroying Israel, an inescapable fact.

      The Israelis know they cannot have a hostile neighbor at indefensible borders. They also know that they cannot maintain the status quo. The world community needs to step in and put Hamas and Fatah out of power. The Israelis and Palestinians should federate and let this nonsense end. But who on either side has the will?

      The PA makes too much money off the suffering of their people. The Israelis have no real partner with which to make peace. Though offering extermination as an alternative is a bit over the top.

      • WildChild

        I think the threat of extermination is that only thing that will get Israeli and Palestinian heads out of Israeli and Palestinian asses. I for one am tired of living with the stench their collective act of asshole wafting over the world.

      • Mary

        No, shtuey.

        The two-state solution won’t work because Israel refuses to remove illegal Jewish settlements from the already-agreed-to Palestinian land.

        Netanyahu and his buddies believe the Bible gives them ALL the land, and that’s a higher priority than any ole AGREEMENT.

        It is Israel who has reneged on previous international agreements, dear.

  • NoTrollZone

    One of the problems with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is the terrible news reporting. The world see nothing of these two groups except that they hate each other into oblivion. In reality, there are those on both sides working to make peace.
    If there could be some emphasis on the common people who are tired of living in a perpetual warzone, then perhaps some movement could happen. There was a great film make by two women– one Palestinian and one Israeli that was very good and showed these people as people– an image that we don’t often see coming from this area. Sorry I can’t remember the name of it–perhaps it will ring a bell with someone else.

  • camille

    shtuey, you can’t argue with people who have no idea about the real history….

    you are fighting antisemitism…and it’s growing and unfortunately on this blog….

    a good portion of the money given by the international community ended up in arafat’s hands and is now in the hands of his wife, who i believe still lives in paris. billions that he bilked that should have gone to the palestinians.

    beware, antisemitism (blaming the jews for protecting themselves) is on the rise. i guess these folks think the jews should just allow themselves to be destroyed again.

    ANTISEMITISM FOLKS LOOK LONG AND HARD AT YOURSELVES

    • WildChild

      This has nothing to do with antisemitism. It has nothing to do with Arafat’s wife. What it is all about is an ongoing act of injustice that has now spilled over into our country and transmagorified into a war of civilizations as the crazy people on all sides draw up the battle lines in our wonderful war on terror. The war on terror doesn’t end until this decades long act of injustice in the “Holy Land” (LOL) ends. It is the beginning of it all. It will be the end of it all, or us all if we don’t end it.

    • Ripley

      You’re using anti-semitism in the same way Barrack uses racism. Any criticism, and the hateful accusations rear their ugly heads. This way anything Israel does will always be right and good, just as with Obama,and if you disagree you’re an anti-semite – or – a racist. Look in the mirror.

      • ritamary

        Ripley, you are so correct. Any critic of Israel is immediately labeled an anti-Semite.

  • camille

    the palestinians and arabs have said they will not stop until all jews are dead. so how do you propose fixing THAT? and sorry to tell you, this is a fact.

    • WildChild

      I already proposed a course of action.

  • camille

    get someone to read you the arab papers in english…they say it all the time that all jews must die and israel must die. so how will you be talking them out of THAT? i’d really like to know.

    • WildChild

      That might be tough considering we can’t talk you into using the reply to his comment feature… and it’s written at the bottom every post… in English even.

    • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMAISAFRAUD

      Camille,

      Don’t listen to wing nuts. Iran has said every single day that they will “blow Israel off the planet.” Just ask Condi…she hears it all day long from that crazy nut in Iran.

      Hamas, even for the most “compassionate” wing nut (translate = that’s just frigging stupid and insane) is still nothing but a bunch of nasty suicide bombers who have ALSO said they “won’t stop until they kill every Jew.” Now we have Fraudbama, who some of us know is loyal to the other side. Hell, he wrote it in his book, in his own words. Anyone defending PLO Terrorism, the threats to “Kill All The Jews” and all of that BS deserves for us to take a strong, military stand against them. This is ridiculous. We have sided with Israel against terror and then I get to read nonsense here having “compassion” for them. ROFLMAO. That “compassion” is nothing BUT Anti-Semitism.

      If you can “empathize” with people who want to destroy an entire group….GOD HELP YOU. I thought I got away from all of this by not turning on the computer for Christmas. Now I read about Israel and am reminded that the biggest moron on the planet takes charge soon and he hates Israel as much as Hamas does. Just go back and LISTEN to HIS OWN WORDS. And that freak O’Biden’s crap. For anyone here who continues to sympathize and empathize with terrorists…why don’t you call those who lost loved ones on 9/11 and tell them how you feel. That you’re an Anti-American, Anti-Semetic nut.

      • stodgie

        i’d sure like to see where obama’s funding came from especially international sources. that would be interesting.

      • Mary

        You ARE aware, Fraud, that before Israel gained its independence and were under British occupation, that certain Jewish “terrorist groups” carried out lots of bombings and attacks on the British, aren’t you?

        The British considered these groups—-especially the Irgun (Rahm Emmanuel’s uncle was a member, and was killed in one of the “terrorist attacks” his group carried out), to be just as bad as Hamas.

        Google the bombing of the King David Hotel, and then get back to us about “terrorists.”

  • untilthelastdogdies

    All above intelligent comments aside, proof this shit will never end.

    Wade on in folks and embrace the never-ending turmoil. You’re either accused of being a terrorist sympathizer, or an anti-semite.

    Love those choices!

    • NoTrollZone

      Yup. Easy labels. Foolish labels designed to end a conversation. Haven’t we seen all this before–oh, I don’t know– maybe like when we criticized Obama. Seems we were labelled then, as well.
      If you can’t make a thoughtful point– then by all means, out with the labels. Don’t have discourse.. just identify and minimize those who disagree with you.

      • stodgie

        notroll, all you do is make false accusations, call name and show a pathetic lack of understanding of intenational politics. you bring nothing to the table but your elbows.

  • camille

    what is it bill clinton did NOT offer Arafat that Arafat turned down the peace deal in 2000? he was offered just about everything he wanted, and said no.

    get real and read the history and read what the arabs really say about israel, which is that it must be destroyed, no matter what.

    • Wisewoman

      Arafat was offered everything except a cohesive country, control of their own water, electricity, air space, and a few other very important things that define a country. However, it was the best that Bill could get the Israels to agree to. Continued negotiations may have been fruitful especially since there was a cease fire and very little violence in almost 2 years. We know the rest of the story. I believe either Netanyahuh or the guy who went in a coma was elected. LIGHTS OUT!

  • camille

    yeah, everything is equal. like you are a parent who is trying to sort out a squabble between siblings trying to be fair. one sibling however says he will NEVER accept the existence of the other and will kill the sibling, no matter what. so what do you to then, just say oh both of you are terrible tsk tsk stop it?

    lol

    • WildChild

      first mistake. you took sides.

    • NoTrollZone

      There are Israelis who say they want every Palestinian dead as well. Example is several of the Israeli settlers who the Israeli government removed from the West Bank. There was a documentary on this removal. Many refused to go and had to be forced to move by the Israeli government. Many wished every harm possible upon the heads of the Palestinians.

      • stodgie

        prove it! the fact that israelis supposedly say all palestinians should be dead. prove it or shut up!

        • NoTrollZone

          what the hell is the matter with you? I said some Israelis. Are you honestly thinking that in this conflict, that no Israelis wish death upon the Palestinians? No one who lost a child to a suicide bombers terrorist attack? No, I’m sorry, I can’t name the documentary. It was a documentary on the removal of Israeli settlers from the west bank. For pete’s sake, calm down.

          • stodgie

            like i said, prove it! you made the statement. now show the evidence. and stalking me on this blog won’t work, no troll.

            • Strawberrybitch

              Actually stodgie, MSNBC reported the Israelis Army just removed some more ‘Jewish squatters’ (the Israelis term not mine) just a few weeks ago. The hardliners called the soldiers traitors to their race. It was very sad.

              • stodgie

                strawberry, i watched the removal of the israeli residents from the land on a special. it was interesting but needed to be done. it only hardens feelings on both sides to interfere with land and water. i also have a cd of said giving a speech before his unfortuante, untimely death. i have followed this for a long time. i see mistakes and errors on both sides. my belief is the israelis have more reason to seek a solution than does the hamas leadership. they have no reason and their funds would end immediately.

                • Strawberrybitch

                  The sad part for me is, Hamas is feeding the poor, widows and orphans of Palistine. That is why they they got elected. Not because they agree with the Hamas agenda of killing off the Jews. My Catholic college organizes listening tours of Israel and Palistine every year where they go and hear out both sides and no one we hear ever says they want to wipe the other out. Only the extremist wackos like Obamabots and Bushbots here. The rest of them are just stuck in the middle like us here at NQ. I’m a firm believer that most people don’t want war. Just like in this country there are many who are horrified by what is happening in Iraq, there are innocent people on both sides of the Israeli conflict. Those are the people my heart bleeds for. But the fact still remains, Israel is the 900 pound gorilla in this conflict. That kind of annoys me.

                  • NoTrollZone

                    Agree with you Strawberrybitch. It is never reported the amount of people on both sides who want this miserable conflict to end. It is hard to believe that the majority of people on either side want to live in a continued war zone. It is the fanatics who call for the extermination of the other side.
                    And well put, “Israel is the 900 pound gorilla in this conflict.” This has got to end.

                    • Strawberrybitch

                      My college (Saint Martin’s in Lacey, Washington) has put together documentaries and speaking tours based on these listening tours. They are amazing. People interviewed include Israeli army snipers (suffering from extreme PTSD), school children, doctors from both sides, aid workers, taxi drivers, politicians, widows, you name it. And none of them ever said they want the other side wiped out.

                  • It’s Not Me

                    If Israel wasn’t the 900 pound gorilla it wouldn’t exist. That’s a fact. I’m sure many tears would flow if Israel disintegrated into a sea of Jewish blood…like Hamas wishes it to (sarcasm).

  • Ron

    Thank goodness for shtuey and all of you who understand what’s going on. Unfortunately, several here don’t. Try to imagine what the Israelis near Gaza have been going through for the past 1300 days. Imagine a rocket or mortar round hitting your or your neighbor’s house or your kid’s school. Imagine friends, relatives, and neighbors being killed by indiscriminate rocket and mortar fire. Imagine this happening every day for 3.5 years. Imagine the fear and terror and anxiety over a long period of time, never knowing if you’re the next target or victim.

    Israelis have been begging their government to act for a long time now. Obama even visited Sderot and saw the rocket and mortar shell casings that had been stacked up over the years. Here are his comments back in July:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFoj-PKJhck

    • WildChild

      We’re very much aware of what is going on. Neither side will give in. Nether side will give up. And the injustice will go on… and on… and on

  • Ripley

    Thanks Larry for speaking truthfully about this conflict – ongoing war. This is the one area I agree with Jimmy Carter on, although I did not read his book on the subject, the plight of the Palestinian people is of the highest priority.

    It wasn’t until I moved to the DC area coming from Ohio, that I became aware of what the Palestinian people were enduring. Also I think the Israelis have usurped and occupied a lot of land in violation.

    • JM

      All I can write is “yikes”! Those poor, poor Palestinians. I wonder why Arabs within Israel live a better life than the Arabs (Palestinians) just outside of Israel’s borders? I think I have the answer. Israel respects its citizens much more than Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah respect their’s. I wish people were not so blinded by world propaganda.

      • Strawberrybitch

        I don’t give a shit about Hamas, Fatah, or Hezbollah. God damn. I care about the poor innocent women and children on both sides who are fucking dying, you cold hearted bastard. Frankly men like you on both sides are the problem. If guys like you suddenly fell off the planet we women would be better off.

        • Ferd Berfle

          As do I, Strawberry. At some point, enough is enough and the carnage has to stop.

  • Mort

    Don’t worry Larry. And moment now the Whitey Tape will come out and then you won’t be a fraudster with zero credibility anymore.

    I’m sure the real birth certificate is coming along soon now too! Hang in there bud.

    • WildChild

      Man you have to catch up. Everybody has been calling it the Why’d He tape after BOBO clarified what MOMO was saying. (LOL) she said why’d he.

  • NoTrollZone

    The unrest in the Middle East is a concern to the security of all countries. Brokered agreements have not held. Something obviously has to be done.
    Escalation is foolhardy and now we’ve got escalation.
    Larry made good points in his post. Israel is not an innocent in this conflict. Why people can’t agree with that simple premise is beyond me. If people cannot admit to the fact that Israel is an imperfect entity–like all others– then how in the world can any movement on the issue be made? Blind loyalty is just that—blind. And it doesn’t help at all.

    • Ron

      Of course the Israeli government is imperfect. It took them way too long to react to Hamas’ provocations. Maybe Israel will get a better government after their Feb 10 election. Sure hope so.

  • gonzotx

    Israel has every right to fight back and hit them hard. The PLO has called for the obliteration of the Jewish people and Israel. We would do no less for America. They were attacked first!
    Are you aware the Hamas has passed news “laws’ to make it OK to crucify non-Muslims? I have no bleeding heart for the PLO.

  • NoTrollZone

    Anybody know what’s going on with Northern Ireland?

    • Andrew P

      Didn’t you hear, man? 0 said it was one of the places where “the wall came down.”

      Funny, since half my family’s on the wrong side of the majority in the six counties, and they don’t know about any wall, up or down, but 0 said it loud and clear in front of all those cheering people in Berlin, it must be so, can’t pull any wool over their eyes, not Berliners, never.

  • Gldhouston

    Hamas has been raining rockets down on Israel and Israel is finally fighting back. I totally stand by Israel and their right to defend themselves.

  • NoTrollZone

    I’m just wondering if the advances in Northern Ireland can be of help with the Isaeli/Palestinian conflict.
    A conflict in religion. A conflict spanning decades of violence with parties in close contact with each other.
    I’m wondering if any lessons learned there can be applied here.

    • Shtuey Shtuey

      I have wondered the same thing. There is more in common than just a religious conflict. The British involvement in the mess making is also the same.

      It would certainly be a good start if the Palestinian Authority was not constantly blasting their children with shows depicting Jews killing Arab children to drain their blood.

      Go to MEMRI TV and see the anti Jewish filth that is broadcast across the Arab world. There is nothing like that on Israeli TV.

      The Israeli government is making its own messes with the Bedouin in the Negev. Everyone is off the deep end and living with constant post traumatic stress. I’ve often said that the musicians will have to make the peace. There are dozens of groups made up of Jews and Arabs. We’re the ones everyone parties with.

    • Andrew P

      Not meaning to take issue, but based on my own experience I think it is regarded by most of those affected on both sides as more of an economic conflict than a religious one. It’s about who gets the biggest share of the pie, and all the history that’s gone into the sharing out thus far. The religious differences obviously are there, but they have been overstated for mass consumption elsewhere. People in Ulster on both sides are far less religious than the average lot of Americans, which I think is true of most EU nations.

      There may well be parallels as you suggest, and lessons to be learned. The difference I see is that in Palestine there definitely are religious fanatics of several persuasions as part of the mix. In Ireland they are not a significant factor.

  • Ron

    4 media myths to be wary of:

    http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2008/12/myths-to-watch-for.html

    You know you can’t trust the MSM to get anything right so please take a look at this.

  • Gldhouston

    There are many reasons for the discrepancy in casualties. The Israeli people have had to build extensive bomb shelters to protect themselves. When the rocket alarms go off, they run as fast as possible to get the kids, the elderly, etc into the shelters. Sometimes the jews have to stay for long periods of time in these shelters. Because of the shelters and poor Hamas missiles, fewer Isrealis were killed. Furthermore, Hamas is known to over-report casualties especially of women and children. Todays strike by Israel was measured and aimed at Hamas terrorist sites. Israel was more than justified.

    • Strawberrybitch

      Terrorists embed themselves in the general population on purpose. Most of those killed are innocent. But if you feel that’s justified, I’m sure you’d think it’s okay to blow up an apartment building your retired mother lives in because there’s a terrorist living in the basement. Look, there’s been enough violence. I’m tired of justifying it. There are those who feel 911 was justified. I’m sick of it. Wackos on both sides need to be put on an island to kill each other off. Leave the rest of us in peace.

      • JM

        If it was your relatives in Israel who had to worry about rockets raining down on them, then you just might have a different perspective about blowing up an apartment building to stop the violence.

        Sometimes force is absolutely necessary since it is the only thing that some groups understand. No response would be viewed as weakness, and Israell, being the small country that it is, surely does not need to look weak. That would invite even more attacks from its neighboring enemies. Israel knows what it is doing. God help them.

        • Strawberrybitch

          Oh brother. You sound like a Bushbot saying we need to blow Iraq off the map.

          • JM

            Oh, brother. You’ll never make is as a mind reader.

            I am a Democrat, who voted Republican for the first time in my life this past general election. I just happen to agree with the US effort in Iraq, and it has nothing to do with Bush. And no, I don’t think that Iraq needs to be blown off the map. I believe Iran does. ;)

            • JM

              My Iran comment was made to get under some people’s skin. I don’t believe that any country should be blow off the face of the earth. It was kind of strange to see someone accuse me of something so loathesome.

    • goldengrahme

      I have found most comments on this thread to be credible, given the complexity of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

      But I am curious as to how many Israeli citizens have been killed by suicide bombings? (The Israeli
      gov insists on calling them “homicide” attacks.)
      This one tactic alone would be enough, IMO, to
      mold national policy and instill fear and loathing.

      Yasser Arafat told his people they could win the
      war eventually by simply outpopulating Jews; the small Palestinian ghettos swelled…thus the great density of people in Gaza, et al. The birth rate in inself is a factor in this continuing fiasco.

      As an outsider with no personal ax to grind, I
      have always sympathized with the historic Jewish dilemma. Now I can see a certain tactic on the part of Palestinian leadership to play world public opinion like a virtuoso violinist. Everytime, as
      the current headlines scream, “Israeli warplanes
      heap death and destruction on Gaza,” world opinion shifts from the backstory to visuals of dead women, old men, children lined up in rows on bombed-out
      streets.

      The Palestinians are winning the psyops war. They can’t beat Israeli forces so they play the waiting game, harassing border settlements, strapping their young with bombs and sending them among the hated
      Jews of Israel. It is guerrilla warfare pure and simple. It won’t end until ALL Arab governments
      accept the notion that Israel is there, it is a viable modern state and it is not going away.

      The Saudis are notorious for promoting Muslim
      cadres to attack Jewish sovereignty in the Middle East. They have problems containing their own despotic regime at home and have used Israel as a focal point to dilute political opposition. The
      Saudis fund extremist Wahabi institutions worldwide.

      That is one backstory that rarely gets aired.

      • Ferd Berfle

        The Saudis fund extremist Wahabi institutions worldwide

        Apparently that was lost on the Bush administration and those that came before, much to the detriment of our own security. I agree. The Wahabis are the focal point of instability in the ME.

  • justsomeone

    camille, Two years ago during the Israelie/HizbAllah war sometimes I would be the only person trying to defend Israel here at NQ, so actually it’s gotten better not worse. Stick around ’cause it never ends, just goes on vacation. It will be interesting to see how Susan Rice conducts herself at the UN on the topic & ditto for Hillary.

  • NoTrollZone

    The Scotsman (Scottish news source) is now reporting at least 225 are dead and 700 injured. The bombs hit residential areas with nearby schools….

    http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/latestnews/Israel-attacks-Gaza-City-39It.4825792.jp

  • JM

    Larry, usually I agree with you, but not this time. Israel is not the villian here. If rockets from Mexico were landing across the border in Texas, with the hope that they would kill American civilians, you can bet your ass that the US would respond by bombing Mexico. No country should have to put up with what Israel puts up with.

    I agree that there are innocents in the region. Unfortunately, when you have hundreds of thousands of civilian Palestinians marching for the destruction of Israel, then I don’t consider them to be innocents anymore, especially when the powers that be start acting on this desire by lobbing rockets into Israel. The only thing that these Islamo-fascists understand is overwhelming power, and Israel has every right to defend its territorial integrity. Unfortunately for the non-peace loving inhabitants of Gaza, their “city-state” is one big urban area in which their military likes to hide amongst civilians in order to prevent Israeli retaliation do to what I believe is Israel’s true desire to not harm civilians. Hamas is adept at instigating Israel to the point that Israel responds with force (only after be attacked), and then Hamas plays it up in the media to gain some kind of political advantage. Screw Hamas. Israel should destroy them.

    • JM

      I erred in my post above in one area. If the Gaza was not so urbanized, there would be less civilian casualties. Additionally, the Palestinian forces do locate within civilian areas with the hope that 1) Israel will not attack those areas, and 2) that if Israel does attack, there will be many civilian casualties and the countries of the world will condemn Israel for them, while conveniently looking the other way whenever the bastards in Palestine start trouble. Hamas decided not to renew a truce with Israel. Now they can suffer the consequences for their stupid attacks on Israeli territory. Israel knows how to handle these people better than any other country in the world. Arabs governments would actually respond in the same way if this type of trouble was brewing within their own borders. One only needs to look at more recent Syrian history to see this.

      • Patrick Walker

        So does Israel.

        For years, Israel was criticized for using civilian buses to transport IDF forces.

    • Idiocracy08

      Yeah, but if Mexico came and took over our country and only allowed us a small area of land and continually occupied us, how do you think we would react?

  • JM

    As for India, again let’s look at where the violence is emanating from before a judgment is made. India was attacked from people of Pakistani nationality. India has shown much restraint. India has the right to protect itself, and if Pakistan cannot reign in the negative elements within its border, then India should do it for them.

    Pakistan, Palestine, Lebanon, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq (because of war), Yemen, the Sudan, Syria, etc. are the breeding grounds for much trouble in the world. I notice one thing that they all have in common, a population that is predominately Muslim. Radicalized Islam (is there any other form?) holds sway over large swaths of the world. When trouble emanates from these areas, it should be answered in kind. There should be no pussyfooting around since this is a culture war in which Islamists will only be happy with global domination, which is an inherent aspect of Islam, along with incorporating violence to meet that goal.

    • Hot Librarian

      30 years ago there were serious Sikh terrorist activity -no less than assassinating Indira Ghandi.

      Quite simply Kashmir ought be part of Pakistan.

      Jm -Gudjurat recently had mass killings of Muslims -(They were hunted down & burnt .Thought that would make you happy).

      It is only 6 decades from independence from Britain. USA was in a brutal civil war within 80 years.of independence from Britain.

      Between India & pakistan (& Bangladesh) there is much to resolve -plus within these countries unity is fragile.

      Muslims are not the only problem. Im not too keen on nuisance Cell phone sellers nor hindi castes .

      • pm317

        terrorists (from Muslim countries) = nuisance cell phone sellers or hindi castes?

        Yeah, let us just give Kashmir to Pakistan because quite simply they ought to be part of Pakistan.

        Wow, ignorance is bliss.

        • Patrick Walker

          Kashmiris should be finally given the right to vote for their own future. That was the position of Islamabad last I checked.

          If you look at many maps of India made in India, you will notice they annexed their portion of Kashmir into the state of India. Pakistan has not.

          On the issue of Kashmir, India is in a very, very weak position.

          • benny

            “Kashmiris should be finally given the right to vote for their own future. That was the position of Islamabad last I checked.”

            The present muslim kashmiris drove off the kashmiri pundits (hindus) from kashmir a long time ago. After that happened, Islamabad very conveniently decided that the present resident Kashmiris need to vote for their own future. They leave out the thousands of hindu refugees that were driven out of Kashmir.

            “If you look at many maps of India made in India, you will notice they annexed their portion of Kashmir into the state of India. Pakistan has not.”

            Wrong again. India holds a part of Kashmir, and Pakistan, the other part. In their previous wars, Pakistan is the one that annexed a part that India was ruling. As for the maps, both India and Pakistan show the full kashmiri region as under their control. Thats nationalistic jingoism. In reality, kashmir is divided among the two.

            “On the issue of Kashmir, India is in a very, very weak position.”

            Tell that to the 60% voter turnout (who came out to vote despite a poll boycott called by the separatists) who actively participated in the democratic election in Indian Kashmir. There were international observers, and it was fair. When it comes to Kashmir, India is in very strong position. The Pakistani militants intercept through the porous border and try to forment trouble, and carry out terrorist attacks.

          • pm317

            Thanks, Benny. There are so many layers to this problem that people don’t know and don’t want to acknowledge.
            1)India can’t just give in to Pakistani terrorism and give up Kashmir. People fail to understand that it has an obligation to Kashmiris who don’t want to be part of Pakistan. 2)I don’t know about the purity of separatists’ goal now with all of Pakistan’s meddling. 3)Let us assume that there are people who want their own independent territory as the separatists do, the day there is a vote for separation, Pakistan will invade and make it part of its territory. 4) Pakistan with ISI and LeT and insurgents has used terrorism all along and even as recent as last month and India will not work with Pakistan to resolve this until Pakistan cleans up its act. It just can’t — then state terrorism would have won.

            • benny

              Very true, pm317. thats why I tried to set the record straight. Too much propaganda, and not many facts.

              • pm317

                Yep. My brother who used to live in Dehra Dun tells us of horror stories of Kashmiri Pundits(Hindus) being rooted and forced out of that region. That is probably the untold story in this saga, the plight of Kashmiri Pundits.

  • http://vbonnaire.wordpress.com vbonnaire

    Larry and all—-

    I just saw the obit up for the man who wrote this book. His thesis makes sense and I hope all the politicians can read this one. Warren in this sense was a very unusual pick. Here is the wiki on that book, given what you just wrote:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations

    Ps: Susan UnPc — I like your taste in rice! Me too! On that Lundberg mix… in the ads…

    Yeah, Happy New Year….

  • kiomat

    “Looks like Barack Obama will take office with two additional conflicts raging beyond the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan”

    And there will be more conflicts cause the rise of BO will bring more conflicts cause he’s weak and corrupt and everybody knows that but obamabots

  • Steve1

    Larry between these two potential issues. Conflict between Pakistan and India is the most troubling. The collaspe of Pakistan could lead to more troublesome worries. Nuclear melt-down, Al Queda, the growth of more Muslim radicalism. India must show restrain! The consequences of a conflict between the two nations will only lead to more terrorism! Not only for India but for the rest of the world! Senator Clinton really will have her hands full. For the sake of our country, the effete Barry Soetoro and his neocons better keep out of it, allow Clinton to do her thing.

  • Hot Librarian

    Pakistan is (sometimes) a member of the Commonwealth of Nations as is India.

    We members have long experience in India/Pakistan conflicts & at times -peace.

    I do not favour one over the other .

    Muslims have been part of India for 1300 years – Many tribes in Pakistan are a blend of Buddhist-Islam. There may be 3 or 4 christians also.

    The last big idea from USA was the return of the corrupt Bhutto. That went well.

    If you want te erpeuators of 9/11 try Saudi Arabia . How many ? 15/19?

  • Hot Librarian

    Perpetuators

  • the duke of marlboro

    Israel appears the sloppy aggressor here, Sharon’s policies of scorched earth simply DO NOT work, the last thing an intelligent military wants is to be drawn into an armed conflict it cannot win, bled to death, slowly.

    As Larry wrote in regard to the US reaction in Iraq, (to similar situations), any counter offensive must be specific, this appears not to be the case, here –they are digging themselves in deeper, isolating themselves, turning world opinion against them, slowly destroying themselves, which might have been the goal, given the variants of asymmetric warfare.

    I truly hope Israel can clean it up.

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  • Liz

    The only solution to this whole Palestinian vs Israel situation is this: Put a fence around the entire area, high enough where no one can climb out. Throw in a gun for every citizen and one cell phone. Let them kill each other off. The last person standing can call out and maybe MAYBE we’ll open the gate. The world is sick of both sides! If you love death and violence so much then go for it, knock yourself out.

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  • Anna

    Yikes….is this effectiong the rest of the world??

  • Ana Carafotes

    Obama is retarded no offense…. He made a promise to this world and guess what??? The guy hasn’t done shit and hes been our president for almost a year.

  • http://01590 Ana

    i mean, So much for hope and love and peace you know??? this dude needs to get off moron island and do something for a change.

  • coolgirl

    losers