Spam Filter Alert

and how is Susan this AM?

Larry,
I wonder if I am the only one to figure out that you are actually still working for the agency as a shill for the neocons. It became painfully obvious when you were a guest on the Stephanie Miller show Friday 10-12-07 and took a call from a listener who was a member of Orange County 9/11truth. The caller asked you about the bombs planted in WTC buildings 1 & 2 and you just replied “Well, they did fly planes into the buildings…” You must expect the great, half-asleep masses to believe that you actually think the 16 patsies were responsible for 9/11. ANYONE who actually looks at the evidence KNOWS that 9/11 was an inside job, and an “ex” Agency Dep. Dir. would have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think otherwise. Q: Why do you continue denying the truth of 9/11? A: Because you are a neo-con shill in progressive clothing. It makes me want to vomit when I hear people like you defend the “official” story of 9/11. The American people are starting to wake up and see the lies that the neo-cons and thier operatives (YOU and others) have used to cover up the truth: 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB! The attacks of 09-11-2001 were indeed an inside job. The documentary films 9/11: THE GREAT
ILLUSION (by George Humphrey), The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why The Official Story Cannot Be True (David Ray Griffin), LOOSE CHANGE 2nd Edition, Terrorstorm (Alex Jones), and others, all point out the inconsistencies with the “official” story of how and why 9/11 happened, and make very compelling arguments that cannot be denied by anyone with intellectual honesty, and who values truth over dogma and myth. I would be glad to send you copies of these films to view for yourself and see what the “spy guy” is in denial of.

Oh puhleeease!

I live in NYC and witnessed 9/11. Some of my friends worked in and around the WTC and barely escaped. Some of my family’s acquaintances weren’t so lucky.

Why is it soooo hard to believe that planes flew into those buildings and the impact and fire damage brought them down. While the Bush White House ignored repeated warnings and then took advantage of the perfect storm, which 9/11 created afterward. Isn’t the truth bad enough!

Larry,
I’ll check the spam filter periodically for commenters who shouldn’t be there.

Leslie,

This guy made me consider it.

William had worked for the New York Port Authority for about twenty years. He was in charge of the three stairwells – A, B and C. They were narrow and without windows. There were also 150 elevators in the building. He knew the building well. His job included the maintenance of the three narrow stairwells in the class “A” building – WTC1, the north tower. On a typical morning, he would have breakfast then begin at the top of the building and methodically work his way down. Arriving at 8:30 on the morning of 9-11 he went to the maintenance office located on the first sublevel, one of six sub-basements beneath ground level. There were a total of fourteen people in the office at this time. As he was talking with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.

At first he thought it was a generator that had exploded. But the cement walls in the office cracked from the explosion. “When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and everything started shaking.” said Rodriguez, who was crowded together with fourteen other people in the office including Anthony Saltamachia, supervisor for the American Maintenance Company.

Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion’s resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: “I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building.” He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the tower.

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=7762

More are coming forward now.
http://www.911review.com/coverup/oralhistories.html

Rob mabe
wonder if I am the only one to figure out that you are actually still working for the agency as a shill for the neocons..

oh right..If you have ever taken the time to read anything larry has written you’d see how dumb that statement is…

And to think that 16 people couldn’t hijack 4 planes and fly them is borderline silly. My dad was in the Air Force and worked for the FAA for 32 years. I’ve flown alittle with him and i promise you I could guide a plane into a tall building with the greatest of ease..( jeez, flaps and Rudder control..come on.)
With your truth..we have invisible planes, invisible people planting bombs in buildings, invisible plots and vast invisible conspiracies and absolutely not a shred of proof..

Well I guess there are even more neocon shills than I thought. Hell, according to Rob’s criteria, I’m one too. Then again, if that puts me in the company of Larry, I’ll proudly wear that badge.
Sorry, I just can’t wrap my head around LJ and neocon shill in the same sentence.

PS Rob, the planet Nebulon pickup is at 8:30 pm tomorrow night. So don’t miss the mothership.

Cee,
Yeah, I’ve read a lot of similar stories. I can’t account for what Williams says. Except that there’s no evidence to support what he says.

Also, if you believe the WTC and Pentagon were dynamited, you’d also have to believe that NY and Washington DC city officials conspired with the Bush administration [and al Qaeda] to horribly murder thousands of their fellow Americans.

Just got off the phone with Susan today. She is with the program more today than yesterday. )

She asked about the political world and what is happening today, which is a good indicator of how she is feeling…:o)

She thanks everyone for their thoughts and prayers and says that she is doing well…well, she hates hospitals but will not hold it against the night nurses for being ***holes….;o)

Anyhow, she is coming right along. She really sounds well. I, as a nurse, am pleased with her attitude. She admits she is somewhat depressed, and I told her that is to be expected by not knowing what to be expected in the whole of things, ie how her body will respond to the therapy et al.

Just wanted to let you all know, she said I could do this or otherwise, I would not go into such a thing as I have here due to the HIPPA laws.

test

Leslie,
The evidence speaks for itself. Only the ignorant could possibly believe the “official” story after thoroughly examining all of the evidence to the contrary. Many thoughtful and qualified persons, including former high-ranking military officials have come out in support of alternative theories placing the blame for 9/11 on rogue elements inside the government alphabet agencies. Think for yourself and investigate the evidence at these and many other independent websites:
INFOWARS.COM – ST911.com – PatriotsQuestion911.com – 911weknow.com – prisonplanet.tv – 911essentials.com – 911truth.org – FreedomtoFascism.com – 911blogger.com – pilotsfor911truth.org – 911truthmovement.org – 911truthradio.com – theresistancemanifesto.com – whatreallyhappened.com – thetruthmovement.net

The problem is, when we know we’re not being told the truth about many things, when the government becomes super-secretive and takes to spying on its citizens for any old reason, the way ours has, when it deliberately creates an atmosphere of fear, you inevitably create a climate in which conspiracy theories, for better or worse, will flourish. I’m a historian and I know there have been other times in which such theories flourished, particularly in France in the years leading up to the French Revolution.

I don’t for a minute believe Larry is any sort of a shill for the neocons. He’s taken enormous risks by speaking out the way he has.

I’m personally skeptical of the theories that 9/11 was an inside job. But the government has created the climate in which these theories flourish. It’s taken advantage of the tragedy and continues to do so. It’s refused to investigate it in in any meaningful way or take responsibility for its own failings which led to the success of the plot. As long as it continues on its present course the theories of conspiracy will grow, to what end, I don’t know.

LOL

HoosierHoops,
What you are saying is just plain un-true. There is almost no evidence to support the “official” story, that it is obviously entirely fabricated. One documentary presentation “The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the official Story Cannot Be True” shows conclusively that the collapse of towers 1 & 2 were, in fact controlled demolitions. And what about WTC7? No plane hit that building and it collapsed in the classic fashion of controlled demolition faster than the gravity free-fall in a vacuum would predict. This is impossible without explosive demolition. There were small fires that could not account for this. And moreover, NO STEEL FRAMED HIGH-RISE HAS EVER COLLAPSED FROM FIRE BEFORE 9/11 OR SINCE! The facts do not lie, only the government and their fanatical supporters, and the terminally deluded who will not even consider that the U.S. government could possibly be involved in attacking it’s own citizenry (ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin, or Operation Northwoods?????) Open your eyes and see for yourself.

taters: you are so right.. LJ and a neocon shrill is equal to Cheeny and Obama being 8th cousins..whoops.. Which brings up a thought..
If Cheeny and Obama can be related then why not..
The Hoopster and Micheal Jordan?
The Hoopster and Bill Gates?
The Hoopster and George Clooney

From: HoosierHoops
To: George Clooney
Subject: Hi Cousin George
________________________________________

Thought I’d inform you that our records show we are 24th cousins twice removed.
I wanted to let you know I’ll be in Italy as soon as possible to visit.
I look forward to hanging with your pals, Matt & Brad especially. I hope you have plenty of couch space. I’m very good at answering the phones just in case Julia Roberts calls and you’re out..I’ll entertain her till you come home.
I don’t know how big your Villa is..but if possible my Entourage would love coming over to..
Look forward to hearing from you..
Love
Cousin Hoopster

Taters,
Just the kind of comment I would expect from someone who hides their identity behind the moniker “taters”. I wonder why it is you would have detailed times of departure for an extraterrestrial transport unless you were directly involved with the aliens (or the delusion thereof). Or are you just blowing smoke out of your posterior vent, as all liars do when they have no facts to support their ridiculous theories. Prejudice prior to investigation has kept so many cretins like yourself in the dark and sucking off the teet of the government disinformation machine perpetually, without hope of EVER seeing daylight. If you would ween off the neo-con koolaid long enough to examine the facts, you could see that the official theory of 9/11 cannot possibly be true.

Delia,
Let me remind you that the CIA is a house of spies.
Their mission is to infiltrate governments and organizations, using false identities fronts, in order to collect information and spread disinformation. THIS IS WHAT THEY DO! A few years back, if someone had accused Valerie Plame of being a CIA spy, you would have probably said something like “Valerie a spy? Nonsense! She’s the wife of an ambassador!”. It’s called a FRONT. As a CIA covert agent, he risks NOTHING, no matter what he might say or write, because the agency is in on the “gag”. The more convincing, the better. Use your head! REAL spies don’t want you to know what they are up to, and their covers are usually undetectable except by long observation, slip-ups or intentional exposure (just ask Valerie…)
My point is this: the U.S. intelligence community is full aware of what happened on 9/11. But if they come out with the truth, they are as good as dead (that is, if they WANTED to come out). As long as sheeple like yourself refuse to think out of the government designated box, you will fall victim their disinformation schemes. Again and again and again. THE FACTS OF 9/11 DO NOT LIE!

In case anyone is interested, Popular Mechanics has a pretty good article debunking many of the biggest 9/11 myths, including the myth that explosions rocked the WTC prior to the planes crashing. Go here.

I’ve read this stuff Rob. I was also in NYC on 9/11 and saw the smoke pouring out of the WTC from the street, could smell it, the ash covered my neighborhood, had an associate anthraxed and experienced dozens of terrorist warnings and subway/building closings due to bomb threats every day for weeks. [Tried to volunteer and offer blood too, but the entire city was volunteering...so I donated food, clothing, whatever to help.]

You think you can tell me about 9/11? You think you have the evidence to show that the people who died that day died because their fellow Americans murdered them? Why would anyone do that, when the terrorists did it for them. Give it a rest.

Steel is malleable at extremely high temperatures. Were it not so, steel structural components could not be formed to begin with. Aviation fuel and ignited materials burning in confined areas created enough heat to soften the steel components supporting the twin towers, and they collapsed. Video analysis and engineering forensics have even identified which steel components gave way first, and they were nowhere near the ground.

Taters,
Just the kind of comment I would expect from someone who hides their identity behind the moniker “taters”.
Hey Taters hides alot.. You can buy his Album from amazon on the bottom of the blogsite here.
I don’t think you should call people that have a different opinion of what happened on 9-11 ‘cretins ‘.
look pal..98% of americans that watched 9-11 unfold know what they saw with thier eyes and tend to agree pretty much on the official version.
( although some facts may be in dispute )
I know what a controlled Demolition looks like and the towers didn’t look anything like it.
A controlled demo starts at the bottom of the structure not the top and by timing the charges you can control direction and implosion variables.
I’m not an expert..but for some reason a vast amount of experts agree with my version.. You can site a thousand websites that think otherwise but that isn’t considered proof.
( As there are thousands of websites claiming the aliens are coming also) You need proof.
But please don’t turn this into a nasty name calling affair..present your evidence and the Community will evaluate it, comment on it and determine if you have valid points or need a straight jacket..

Come on, Leslie! By now you should know that Popular Mechanics is a covert CIA publication!

LOL.

It’s really lucky the buildings pancaked the way they did too. If those 110-story towers had fallen over sideways…they would’ve done much more damage and killed many more people.

You should’ve seen those holes. The newsreels don’t do them justice. Because you don’t get a sense of the immense scale.

Leslie.. That was an interesting read. 628,000 websites come up when you google 9-11 conspiracy.
amazing.. I called Susan yesterday..she was still groggy and had not yet walked…
I just wished her well and a speedy recovery.

Leslie,
Popular Mechanics: The only source of “true” 9/11 truth available in the U.S. today–or is it the lone source you can possibly cite to support the neo-con-boot-licking “official story”, because NONE OTHER EXIST??? See these instead for the FACTS:

INFOWARS.COM – ST911.com – PatriotsQuestion911.com –
911weknow.com – prisonplanet.com – 911essentials.com – 911truth.org – FreedomtoFascism.com – 911blogger.com – pilotsfor911truth.org – 911truthmovement.org – 911truthradio.com – theresistancemanifesto.com – whatreallyhappened.com – thetruthmovement.net

Oh man, hilarious, Hoosier Hoops.

GIVE ME A BREAK! Steel begins to melt at 2800F, and the hottest diesel fuel (yes, jet fuel is just diesel) burns under controlled conditions is 1800F! Ever notice how your wood stove somehow resists warping and melting into a puddle, no matter how hot and roaring your fire becomes? THINK PEOPLE! The “melting steel” theory is just not possible! Don’t believe me, investigate it for yourself at:
INFOWARS.COM – ST911.com -PatriotsQuestion911.com – 911weknow.com – prisonplanet.tv – 911essentials.com – 911truth.org – FreedomtoFascism.com – 911blogger.com – pilotsfor911truth.org – 911truthmovement.org – 911truthradio.com – theresistancemanifesto.com – whatreallyhappened.com – thetruthmovement.net

Bet she appreciated the call Hoopster. It was very nice of you. I may call her tomorrow…don’t want to bug her, just make sure she’s recovering OK. Will continue to post any updates.

I am not a structural engineer, but, applying a modicum of common sense:

1. Melting and softening are not the same thing as anyone knows who has worked with metal, wax, butter, or any other other substance that softens/melts with the application of heat. The correct question to ask is not at what temperature does steel “begin to melt”, but at what temperature does steel begin to lose its ability to bear weight.

2. The appropriate question is not what is the hottest temperature diesel fuel reaches under controlled conditions, but what was the effective temperature reached by steel beams supporting the building at the point or points at which the collapse began.

Do we have answers to these questions?

I inadvertently called her yesterday – inadvertently because I was only trying to confirm her room number, and the operator put me through to the room – and she sounded groggy and had two physical therapists with her, so we did not talk, but it looks like they are putting her to work right away!

Shirin,
Not only does Popular Mechanics work for Darth Vader and the Dark Force, but so does: PBS, Amazon, wikipedia, Slate, MSNBC, about.com, Barnes & Noble, Time magazine, Counterpunch.org, The Guardian, Rocky Mountain News, Mother Jones, Washington Monthly, Democracy Now and about 1,880,000 Google hits just for “9/11 myths.” If you google “debunking 9/11″ you’ll get 1,620,000 hits.

Bet Larry Johnson is running the entire operation out of his briefcase too. Oh, that devious Larry Johnson!

Yeah, she told me they were going to start physical therapy right after surgery. Amazing.

note the comment of today above on first opening.

Oh, well, I knew that all along! I could see right through Larry’s cover as a disillusioned Republican.

Shirin and Teaeopy,
I work with metals. I can melt silver, gold, etc., using a portable acetylene torch at my desk at home. The torch can reach temperatures of 4800 F.

The melting point for 24K gold is 1945 F, and pure silver is 1761 F.

If someone gave me a bit of steel to melt, I could probably do it easily right next to my kitchen.

Of course, the WTC steel was very thick and supposed to be covered with fire-retardent materials. Didn’t matter. Steel melts when heat causes it to reach its melting point.

Shirin,
PBS did a program explaining this with engineering and architectural experts. They did diagrams and illustrated what happened. Google can find it.

I remember as a kid helping someone make lead weights for fishing. The lead bars became pliable long before they melted, and I used to play around with it. I have no idea what the temperatures were – I was just a kid, fascinated with the process.

I think I have heard something about this. I definitely heard about the Mechanics Illustrated article.

Yes, and it softens and begins to lose its weight bearing properties long before it actually melts.

Leslie,
The PBS science program NOVA did a documentary on “Why The Towers Fell.” They used a revolutionary new building technique where the load bearing strength was all in the core and the outer walls, which were bridged by very long beams with fireproof insulation SPRAYED onto them. Over time however, the insulation flaked off. During the fire the steel softened because of this, causing the beams to SAG in the middle, pulling UP on the ends, which were bolted down. But bolts were only intended to tack the beams in place until the weight of the building held them down, and so they SNAPPED, allowing the beam ends to become lose, with the continueing sag causing them to fall to the floor below, along with the weight they were bearing. Now the weight began to move downwards, forcing more and more of the beams to fail, until the downward motion was CONTINUOUS and the buildings pancaked. They studied the wreckage of the beams and they were twisted, with the bolts snapped off. So even a moderate fire can soften steel if there’s no protection.

In 1945 an Army transport plane crashed into the Empire State Building, which was built like a fortress. Only a few people at the impract floor were killed, while people above the two burning floors were evacuated down the stairwells, which had been armored and fireproofed–unlike the WTC’s princely TWO layers of freakin’ sheetrock between the stairs and the flames.

Shirin,
During our glorious Civil War the soldiers were issued tempered steel bayonets. Trouble was, the soldiers couldn’t resist using their bayonets to roast foot over a campfire. This caused the bayonets to lose their temper and soften, so that when they were actually used as bayonets they would bend, making them almost useless. Of course the untempered bayonets looked the same as before, except when the bent under use.

Thanks Montag, saw the PBS film. But didn’t remember it quite so well as you did. Good memory.

They should’ve hammered the bayonets after roasting their dinners.

Ever watch those old westerns with the blacksmiths heating up metal, plunging it into water and then hammering it? That’s generally how you harden a metal–you hammer it. That’s how gold and silver are hardened anyway.

It’s really neat why that works too…you’re changing the molecular structure of the metal when you apply heat, softening it.

Suuuuuure.

Because a huge, convoluted conspiracy makes much more sense than Bush, etc., ignoring all the well-documented warnings.

Because actual engineers know what temperature softens steel until it loses its load-bearing capacity, and buildings are designed to bear the weight of their upper floors as static, not dynamic loads.

Because no one noticed the hundreds of technicians or the miles of wire it would have required to rig the towers for demo.

Because Giuliani’s little love-nest “command center” had a diesel fuel powered generator pumping fuel right into the fire until the structural steel in WTC7 weakened enough to let go.

Take your 9/11 conspiracist delusions and go home, kid, you’re in way over your head here.

Ever even stop to think that the fact that the nitwit who did “loose Change” is still alive is proof that it’s BS? That he met with no “tragic accident”, no “heart attack”, no “random street violence”, or some other way someone might have offed him if he was even within a mile of the truth?

Some people…

test

I didn’t say anything about the Pentagon being blown up.

I do believe a few officials did conspire with the Bush administration.

PBS did a program about Cheney last night and they said that the Bush administration was surprised by the 9-11 attacks.
We know that isn’t true.
Popular Mechanics tried to explain this stuff away by first having a Chertoff relative write an article then someone else to explain things away.
The official story is a conspiracy theory.

I don’t for a minute believe Larry is any sort of a shill for the neocons. He’s taken enormous risks by speaking out the way he has.

Delia,

I agree with this. I just disagree with him on 9-11.

How do we know that isn’t true?

Wow

Finally some discussion on a subject near and dear to my heart…

I call it….

“Was 9/11 an inside job?”

As most of you who read my posts know I would never “attack” anyone no matter what I thought of their remarks, so first I would like to clarify a few points.

Rob Mabe is entitled to his opinion, however attacking Larry as a “shill for the
neocons” is nothing but an inflammary statement.

It leads to what I dislike about this blog sometimes and have said before, a back and forth exchange of accusations like the old SNL Jane Curtain/Dan Ackroyd bit, which doesn’t allow for ANY discussion of ANYBODY’S POINT.

So Rob I say to you…..I happen to agree with you, but you will NEVER get anyone who has the right to believe the “official story ” to listen to you if you present your points the way you did, so please take this as constructive criticism.

Now for all of you who may now want to ban me from here because I have admitted that I am a “skeptic” of the “official 9/11 Commission conclusions” of what happened on 9/11, and am a part of the ‘so called 9/11 truth movement”, hear me out.

Leslie, et al

You know I am a loyal member of this community and I rarely challenge anyone’s statements, and while I don’t know what all of you have read about “questions related to the “official conclusions” of what happened on 9/11, but you, hoosierhoops, taters, Teaeopy, and others owe it to yourselves to look at the evidence presented by those who believe that the “official conclusions” of the 9/11 commission have a lot unanswered points.

Let me also clarify something else, I could go on for days why I believe 9/11 was an inside job but I will not here because I didn’t believe it at first and didn’t come that conclusion until I had read everything I could “google” and believe me there is a lot out there. I also have a strong belief that you should believe what you believe based on the facts not just because I say it and or anyone else for that matter.

Sometimes Shirin gets criticized for “fact challenging” poster’s comments, I admire her for that, but in the end “facts” is all that matters in trying to uncover the truth.

I firmly believe that your reaction on reading what I am saying as well as what Rob Mabe said is to say that we are full of shit!

So, I won’t try to convince you of what I believe. I will however ask you
to go to the web sites Rob mentioned and the ones I list at the bottom of this post and read what they say with an open mind.

If you still believe that the “official 9/11 comission’s conclusions of what happened on 9/1 are the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth so help you God, then I will never speak of it again or to anyone else on this site.

However, I believe after reading what these sane people, who are not just X-files lone gunmen conspiricy kooks, have to say, who question the “official conclusions”, you might just be willing to believe, that as is said in court, the government is not telling the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth so help them God.

Lastly, it is extremely disgusting,sickening, and horrible to think that our government could have had anything to do with this unspeakable event, and my belief that they did, in no way diminishes the loss of life, property, trauma, and anguish that those of you who live in NY feel.

But let me add this, if you think the government might have been involved and are open to that possibility, then you will easily be able to connect the dots to understand everything that has happened since then and why.

If any of you want to discuss this further with me off blog, here is my email address
bill564@cox.net.

Here is a list of sites I would recommend going to…..

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

http://www.911inplanesite.com/

http://911research.wtc7.net/

http://www.911busters.com/

http://www.infowars.com/index.html

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/

http://www.september11news.com/

http://www.wanttoknow.info/911information

http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

http://www.nogw.com/

http://www.911truth.org/

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

test

A firestorm here…

Finally some discussion on a subject near and dear to my heart…

I call it….

“Was 9/11 an inside job?”

As most of you who read my posts know I would never “attack” anyone no matter what I thought of their remarks, so first I would like to clarify a few points.

Rob Mabe is entitled to his opinion, however attacking Larry as a “shill for the
neocons” is nothing but an inflammary statement.

It leads to what I dislike about this blog sometimes and have said before, a back and forth exchange of accusations like the old SNL Jane Curtain/Dan Ackroyd bit, which doesn’t allow for ANY discussion of ANYBODY’S POINT.

So Rob I say to you…..I happen to agree with you, but you will NEVER get anyone who has the right to believe the “official story ” to listen to you if you present your points the way you did, so please take this as constructive criticism.

Now for all of you who may now want to ban me from here because I have admitted that I am a “skeptic” of the “official 9/11 Commission conclusions” of what happened on 9/11, and am a part of the ‘so called 9/11 truth movement”, hear me out.

Leslie, et al

You know I am a loyal member of this community and I rarely challenge anyone’s statements, and while I don’t know what all of you have read about “questions related to the “official conclusions” of what happened on 9/11, but you, hoosierhoops, taters, Teaeopy, and others owe it to yourselves to look at the evidence presented by those who believe that the “official conclusions” of the 9/11 commission have a lot unanswered points.

Let me also clarify something else, I could go on for days why I believe 9/11 was an inside job but I will not here because I didn’t believe it at first and didn’t come that conclusion until I had read everything I could “google” and believe me there is a lot out there. I also have a strong belief that you should believe what you believe based on the facts not just because I say it and or anyone else for that matter.

Sometimes Shirin gets criticized for “fact challenging” poster’s comments, I admire her for that, but in the end “facts” is all that matters in trying to uncover the truth.

I firmly believe that your reaction on reading what I am saying as well as what Rob Mabe said is to say that we are full of shit!

So, I won’t try to convince you of what I believe. I will however ask you
to go to the web sites Rob mentioned and the ones I list at the bottom of this post and read what they say with an open mind.

If you still believe that the “official 9/11 comission’s conclusions of what happened on 9/1 are the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth so help you God, then I will never speak of it again or to anyone else on this site.

However, I believe after reading what these sane people, who are not just X-files lone gunmen conspiricy kooks, have to say, who question the “official conclusions”, you might just be willing to believe, that as is said in court, the government is not telling the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth so help them God.

Lastly, it is extremely disgusting,sickening, and horrible to think that our government could have had anything to do with this unspeakable event, and my belief that they did, in no way diminishes the loss of life, property, trauma, and anguish that those of you who live in NY feel.

But let me add this, if you think the government might have been involved and are open to that possibility, then you will easily be able to connect the dots to understand everything that has happened since then and why.

If any of you want to discuss this further with me off blog, here is my email address
bill564@cox.net.

Here is a list of sites I would recommend going to…..

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

http://www.911inplanesite.com/

http://911research.wtc7.net/

http://www.911busters.com/

http://www.infowars.com/index.html

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/

http://www.september11news.com/

http://www.wanttoknow.info/911information

http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

http://www.nogw.com/

http://www.911truth.org/

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

Rob Mabe..

Here is a post I have been trying to make all afternoon..please read it as I am on your side, however if it goes through I expect a major amout of wrath directed at me as you have already received.

Wow

Finally some discussion on a subject near and dear to my heart…

I call it….

“Was 9/11 an inside job?”

As most of you who read my posts know I would never “attack” anyone no matter what I thought of their remarks, so first I would like to clarify a few points.

Rob Mabe is entitled to his opinion, however attacking Larry as a “shill for the
neocons” is nothing but an inflammary statement.

It leads to what I dislike about this blog sometimes and have said before, a back and forth exchange of accusations like the old SNL Jane Curtain/Dan Ackroyd bit, which doesn’t allow for ANY discussion of ANYBODY’S POINT.

So Rob I say to you…..I happen to agree with you, but you will NEVER get anyone who has the right to believe the “official story ” to listen to you if you present your points the way you did, so please take this as constructive criticism.

Now for all of you who may now want to ban me from here because I have admitted that I am a “skeptic” of the “official 9/11 Commission conclusions” of what happened on 9/11, and am a part of the ‘so called 9/11 truth movement”, hear me out.

Leslie, et al

You know I am a loyal member of this community and I rarely challenge anyone’s statements, and while I don’t know what all of you have read about “questions related to the “official conclusions” of what happened on 9/11, but you, hoosierhoops, taters, Teaeopy, and others owe it to yourselves to look at the evidence presented by those who believe that the “official conclusions” of the 9/11 commission have a lot unanswered points.

Let me also clarify something else, I could go on for days why I believe 9/11 was an inside job but I will not here because I didn’t believe it at first and didn’t come that conclusion until I had read everything I could “google” and believe me there is a lot out there. I also have a strong belief that you should believe what you believe based on the facts not just because I say it and or anyone else for that matter.

Sometimes Shirin gets criticized for “fact challenging” poster’s comments, I admire her for that, but in the end “facts” is all that matters in trying to uncover the truth.

I firmly believe that your reaction on reading what I am saying as well as what Rob Mabe said is to say that we are full of shit!

So, I won’t try to convince you of what I believe. I will however ask you
to go to the web sites Rob mentioned and the ones I list at the bottom of this post and read what they say with an open mind.

If you still believe that the “official 9/11 comission’s conclusions of what happened on 9/1 are the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth so help you God, then I will never speak of it again or to anyone else on this site.

However, I believe after reading what these sane people, who are not just X-files lone gunmen conspiricy kooks, have to say, who question the “official conclusions”, you might just be willing to believe, that as is said in court, the government is not telling the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth so help them God.

Lastly, it is extremely disgusting,sickening, and horrible to think that our government could have had anything to do with this unspeakable event, and my belief that they did, in no way diminishes the loss of life, property, trauma, and anguish that those of you who live in NY feel.

But let me add this, if you think the government might have been involved and are open to that possibility, then you will easily be able to connect the dots to understand everything that has happened since then and why.

If any of you want to discuss this further with me off blog, here is my email address
bill564@cox.net.

Here is a list of sites I would recommend going to…..

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

http://www.911inplanesite.com/

http://911research.wtc7.net/

http://www.911busters.com/

http://www.infowars.com/index.html

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/

http://www.september11news.com/

http://www.wanttoknow.info/911information

http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

http://www.nogw.com/

http://www.911truth.org/

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

Rob Mabe

Email me bill564@cox.net..I am on your side

I have repeatedly tried to post my thoughts on the 9/11 discussion on this thread, but they are getting blocked..

Will see if this goes through..

Ok, I am going to try it again…

Wow

Finally some discussion on a subject near and dear to my heart…

I call it….

“Was 9/11 an inside job?”

As most of you who read my posts know I would never “attack” anyone no matter what I thought of their remarks, so first I would like to clarify a few points.

Rob Mabe is entitled to his opinion, however attacking Larry as a “shill for the
neocons” is nothing but an inflammary statement.

It leads to what I dislike about this blog sometimes and have said before, a back and forth exchange of accusations like the old SNL Jane Curtain/Dan Ackroyd bit, which doesn’t allow for ANY discussion of ANYBODY’S POINT.

So Rob I say to you…..I happen to agree with you, but you will NEVER get anyone who has the right to believe the “official story ” to listen to you if you present your points the way you did, so please take this as constructive criticism.

Now for all of you who may now want to ban me from here because I have admitted that I am a “skeptic” of the “official 9/11 Commission conclusions” of what happened on 9/11, and am a part of the ‘so called 9/11 truth movement”, hear me out.

Leslie, et al

You know I am a loyal member of this community and I rarely challenge anyone’s statements, and while I don’t know what all of you have read about “questions related to the “official conclusions” of what happened on 9/11, but you, hoosierhoops, taters, Teaeopy, and others owe it to yourselves to look at the evidence presented by those who believe that the “official conclusions” of the 9/11 commission have a lot unanswered points.

Let me also clarify something else, I could go on for days why I believe 9/11 was an inside job but I will not here because I didn’t believe it at first and didn’t come that conclusion until I had read everything I could “google” and believe me there is a lot out there. I also have a strong belief that you should believe what you believe based on the facts not just because I say it and or anyone else for that matter.

Sometimes Shirin gets criticized for “fact challenging” poster’s comments, I admire her for that, but in the end “facts” is all that matters in trying to uncover the truth.

I firmly believe that your reaction on reading what I am saying as well as what Rob Mabe said is to say that we are full of shit!

So, I won’t try to convince you of what I believe. I will however ask you
to go to the web sites Rob mentioned and the ones I list at the bottom of this post and read what they say with an open mind.

If you still believe that the “official 9/11 comission’s conclusions of what happened on 9/1 are the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth so help you God, then I will never speak of it again or to anyone else on this site.

However, I believe after reading what these sane people, who are not just X-files lone gunmen conspiricy kooks, have to say, who question the “official conclusions”, you might just be willing to believe, that as is said in court, the government is not telling the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth so help them God.

Lastly, it is extremely disgusting,sickening, and horrible to think that our government could have had anything to do with this unspeakable event, and my belief that they did, in no way diminishes the loss of life, property, trauma, and anguish that those of you who live in NY feel.

But let me add this, if you think the government might have been involved and are open to that possibility, then you will easily be able to connect the dots to understand everything that has happened since then and why.

If any of you want to discuss this further with me off blog, here is my email address
bill564@cox.net.

Here is a list of sites I would recommend going to…..

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

http://www.911inplanesite.com/

http://911research.wtc7.net/

http://www.911busters.com/

http://www.infowars.com/index.html

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/

http://www.september11news.com/

http://www.wanttoknow.info/911information

http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

http://www.nogw.com/

http://www.911truth.org/

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

Ok, blocked again. Leslie are you blocking me??

If so I would suggest you read what I have to say and maybe let it through.

If the community thinks my remarks are out of line, I will leave quietly and take my opinions elsewhere.

Leslie,
All you offer is ridiculous sarcasm. I offer sincere sentiment and independent sources of the truth concerning 9/11:
INFOWARS.COM – ST911.com – PatriotsQuestion911.com – 911weknow.com – prisonplanet.tv – 911essentials.com – 911truth.org – FreedomtoFascism.com – 911blogger.com – pilotsfor911truth.org – 911truthmovement.org – 911truthradio.com – theresistancemanifesto.com – whatreallyhappened.com – thetruthmovement.net

Nope, I wasn’t blocking you. The spam filter was doing it automatically.

I unspammed your most recent long comment. Because you tried to post the same one several times. OK?

Let me know if you have more comments that need de-spamming? Ditto anyone else having trouble, please email me: muonsalternateworlds@hotmail.com [which is very slow since Microsoft took over hotmail, so bear with me...]

Bill K.
but you, hoosierhoops, taters, Teaeopy, and others owe it to yourselves to look at the evidence presented by those who believe that the “official conclusions” of the 9/11 commission have a lot unanswered points.

Bill
I really respect your point of view..Thanks so much for showing respect to the community here.
Everytime i disagree with a poster here i could come in strafing with bullets of fire..
But really,if we discuss issues of fact as fellow posters we move into a stronger and more informed community of bloggers.
I know there are unanswered issues.
________________________________________________
You know 9-11 is a hot topic issue.
I read leslie’s account..frankly.. It touched me deeply. I have my own stories and how it effected my family.. I’ll save those for another day..
the Hoopster

Where in my piece did I say I trust the government?

But nevermind. May I suggest that while you’re going strong you see if you can work the Freemasons, the Illuminati, and the Trilateral Commission into your theories. Or are they too passe these days?

Bill,

I respect people who argue rationally about virtually subject, as you have here. As I said in my earlier post, I don’t think the Bush Administration has been open about the subject, which has been part of the problem. This issue has been discussed several times here that I’m aware of. I think Rob’s big problem is that he led with an attack on Larry.

But I’ll repeat what I said earlier. We’re living today in an atmosphere that breeds conspiracy theories, whether they come from the left or the right. An administration based on secrecy and fear will inevitably do that. It will be impossible to ascertain the truth of many things in such a society, and so conspiracy theories will multiply.

Thanks hoopster,

I will try to temper my opinions like you do.

Sometimes I get so angry at what the Bush Admin has done to all of us I tend to let it all hang out.

Thanks for reigning me in.

Leslie,

Sorry I over reacted, it is not like me, thanks for unspamming my remarks.

Please accept my apologies for attacking you it was not appropriate behavior on my part.

I do think a properly framed discussion of the 9/11 official conclusions might be in order. Perhaps Larry could facilitate something,

Bill

Sure, there are lots of unanswered questions about Sept. 11, but that does not add up to it being an “inside job”.

I don’t buy the “inside job” conspiracy stuff for a number of very good reasons, one of the biggest being the sheer impossibility of keeping a secret, and especially one like that. As they say, three people can keep a secret, as long as two of them are dead. Given the complexity of a “project” like 9/11, and the very large number of people who would have to be involved as insiders, someone somewhere would certainly have slipped up somehow, and produced a loose thread that would lead to an unraveling of the story.

More than anything I wish people who expend so much time, energy, and resources trying to “prove” some convoluted conspiracy theory would put even half as much energy and resources into getting this country – and therefore the world, which is what I REALLY care about – out of the ever deepening mess it is in.

Only the ignorant….

This opening slight seems to place you as superior in insight and observation than all the others who disagree with you on this eh…and thus Larry Johnson is a neo-con hack?

Sorry, big boy, but Larry Johnson has done a lot to display the current administration as liars and manipulators of fear. Larry kept the torch lit for Valerie Plame and others when attacked by this administration. Each and every “attack” we hear about gets perspective from LJ that is critical and cynical even of the Bush admin, and now you come here and try to associate him with them…..simply based on your convoluted notion that you’ve got all the facts on 9/11.

What horseshit!

I’ve debated your type before and will gladly do it again now on this topic. I just as easily assume that someone in this administration ‘drew the punch’ that we call 9/11 and hold the accountable. Any good strategic thinker who wants to be in a conflict…can find a way in…in my fighting background, we call it “drawing the punch” or in my case, “bully baiting”. When I was younger I could find the fight I wanted when I wanted, and now I see this administration doing the same thing. They conjure a fight and it comes.

I can just as easily conclude that they let it happen in order to facilitate their plans that were laid out years previous.

As a scientific thinker I am aware that I can control very little about the “evidence” and thus I cannot treat them as completely authoritative simply because they are on all the websites you quote.

I’m less interested in your very intricate illusion than stopping this administration from future events and understanding how one citizen, me, can make a difference. Guess that makes me a neocon.

So on that note, Rob Mabe, good luck in your Infowars circles, I’m sure we need that group being who they are too. But be warned….your posts sound arrogant and ignorant themselves. I don’t need your permission or reminder to “think for” myself then pointed to places who did some thinking for me.

I thought for myself, and I concluded there were people who flew planes into the WTC and Pentagon as a part of an attack that was aimed to start a war. I haven’t concluded fully who was behind it, but i’d be a fool to jump on the conspiracy theorists page simply because it is inline with my very obvious contempt for CheneyBushCo LLP.

To only make this an inside job robs us of another reality object you ignore…valid Arab or Muslim anger at US policies. And as a person who understood nationalism years ago, I expect human beings to be very angry at imperial behavior from other countries and for them to resort, though I don’t condone, to violence. I lived for years watching Apartheid leaders call ANC a terrorist organization, so this isn’t new to me. I’ve watched the Irish and the Basque do their thing, Tamils, etc…
I guess Alex Jones thinks there are no arabs who are angry, or muslims, or just people…its all Dick Cheney and the fear of retna-scanning.

And…Steel does not need to get to 2800F to lose integrity…ask anyone who builds cycle frames and we can tell you, genius, that we often prefer brazing because we don’t want to reduce the integrity of our steel by going up to TIG or MIG welding. This doesn’t make me a steel expert, but it says my practical experience is very different than your elaborate steel stories (which have been refuted by steel experts I know who also want Bush locked up).

Larry can defend himself but I’m not going to sit idle while you make crap up and treat it as real, then fling it on a man of Larry’s credit without a retort.

Have a fine day.
end of spam

Bill,
I agree with most of your points, even if I don’t accept your “facts” I support your right to that conclusion. I am not a person who automatically believes anything, in fact belief isn’t of much worth in my toolbelt. But I’ve found more than enough to condemn CheneyBushCo LLP. based on the “official record”.

Personally my views of 9/11 are too complex to simply rant about melting steel, buckling buildings, airplanes, or frankly even the event itself. I prefer to discuss our proxy wars of the last several decades and our involvement in the Middle East dating to just before the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Being too focused on 9/11 has robbed me of the ability to see the big picture (may not be that way for you or others).

I welcome your discussion and views and hope you get honored here for them.

What I don’t take kindly to…bashing Larry Johnson or others when they don’t play the game. The mentality that does that is paranoid and creates constellations that confuse themselves. Its the, ‘You’re either with us or ‘gainst us” game.

I’ve experienced so much of that in the “progressive” or “leftist” camps that I’m simply fed up with it. Its like being guilt tripped by a vegan because you eat eggs or milk, even if you don’t eat beef or chicken. You just aren’t PURE ENOUGH.

Thanks for not doing that Bill.

Shirin,
“I don’t buy the “inside job” conspiracy stuff for a number of very good reasons, one of the biggest being the sheer impossibility of keeping a secret, and especially one like that.”
I suppose you have never heard of the “Manhattan Project”? THOUSANDS were in on that, and it was kept totally secret until the end of the war. The Gulf of Tonkin “incident” was a complete LIE that was only officially revealed in recent years, and that one led to 58,000 American deaths, and over a million vietnamese. The biggest asset the neo-cons/neo-liberals/globalists have at their disposal is the inability of the citizenry to believe their government could possibly commit such atrocities and then lie about it. We all need to wake up and realize that moral evil is at the helm, and hiding our heads in the sand DOES NOT make it all go away.

Delia,
All Conspiracy Theories are alike in that they give us easy answers to difficult questions by scapegoating people whom we already don’t like and allow us to feel the self-righteousness of perceiving ourselves to be victims. This means that we do most of the work for them.

Another aspect is that a Conspiracy Theory doesn’t start by analyzing the facts, but with a “feeling” that the Offical Story just CAN’T be true. In fact there’s a reason for this. Human Beings are frightened at the degree of CHANCE in our lives. We like to feel that we’re in control and that our lives can’t just be snuffed out at random. It actually COMFORTS us to think that the Government perpetrated 9/11 because then Human Beings are still in control. On the other hand, if Al Qaeda simply used holes in our Airport Security to fly planes into buildings–can any of us ever feel safe again?

Except that the Manhattan Project, and the Gulf of Tonkin did not involve the government of the United States spectacularly committing a mass murder in which it killed thousands of United States citizens, did they? And the Manhattan Project was not and is not considered a crime except by those who would consider it a crime had it not been kept secret.

And as happened with the Manhattan Project and the Gulf of Tonkin incident, inevitably sooner or later someone would slip, or intentionally blow the whistle, and the consequences of being caught out in a crime of such magnitude and depravity would be unimaginably severe and far reaching.

As I said, there are a lot of unanswered questions, but nothing points convincingly to the inside job conspiracy theories.

And the melting point of steel argument is completely convincing to anyone who applies a little common sense. As I said, the appropriate question is not at what temperature steel melts, but at what temperature it begins to lose its weight-bearing capacity, and that is very far below the melting point.

Correction: The melting point of steel argument is completely unconvincing.

Bill,
I appreciate that your position on 9/11 is compatible with mine, even though our respective styles are markedly divergent. You are distinctly diplomatic, and that approach certainly has it’s merits, and it is most likely a genuine reflection of your personal style. I, on the other hand, have no interest in making friends or gently convincing anyone to come into the light. The way I see it, you don’t revive someone imperiled by cardiac arrest with a cooing in their ears and softly caressing strokes of their hands. On the contrary, a hard fist slammed down onto the patient’s chest is in order, followed by forceful breath into their lungs and repeated compression of the sternum to the breaking point. I challenge ignorance head-on and take no prisoners in defending the truth, and I don’t care who gets their feathers ruffled or their nose bent in the process. I am not out to make friends here. I am not out to force a belief upon anyone either. Beliefs are for the intellectually lazy. I am talking about the FACTS. The undeniable truth of the matter. It is not even remotely about me. It is about 3000 innocents crushed into oblivion so Larry Silverstein could realize a $7 billion profit on a $100 million investment, so PNAC could realize their agenda of ever-expanding world aggression through a “catalyzing event, a new Pearl Harbor”, so Haliburton could realize billions in no-bid contracts, and on and on it goes. Most people will cling to their erroneous beliefs until the bitter end, regardless of evidence to the contrary. But, if even one person is pissed-off enough at me for exposing the contradictions of the “official story” of 9/11, or for challenging their own lazy thinking enough to examine the actual evidence, if for no other reason than to PROVE me wrong, then I have succeeded in my aims. Don’t get me wrong–I am dearly grateful for anyone like yourself who has the courage to embrace the horror of the truth concerning our governments involvement in 9/11, and I won’t suggest that you change your approach. You “GET IT”. And that, in my not so humble opinion, is what matters. P.S. I am still adamant that Larry Johnson is in fact an agent of disinformation or “shill operative”. I think it is clearly obvious by his own denial of the 9/11 evidence. Some may call this an attack. And perhaps they are correct. I challenge Larry to explain how he can deny the evidence for an inside job as presented by 9/11 truth organizations. I also predict that he never will, if not because he has cross-hairs on him like all of us who challenge the official story, then because it is intrinsically impossible. THE FACTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES AND CANNOT BE DENIED!

wow, you really have yourself wrapped up in a tizzy of nonsense. you treat the CIA as if its monolythic and if there’s anything that has become obvious is the CIA isn’t a monolyth.

your talking towards people in a manner that will never convince…sheeple!?! at noquarter…you are drinking tha koolaid friend. you bleet at people like you’ve got the scoop and they are stupid, this is the worst sales technique ever.

Can you imagine a car salesman coming up to you with such a line?

“Hey dude, you’re stupid, you need this kind of car because you don’t think for yourself, here’ drive ours!”

or on a date, did that thinking work for you?

“Hey lovely, you’re really sheeple, and you don’t think for yourself, here’s my number, call me!”

oh well, good news is you aren’t the first whackjob i’ve ever read online.

end of spam.

I’ll visit your “evidence” sites if you do us all a favor and look up the following:

Appeal to Authority
argumentum ad verecundiam
(logical fallacy about sourcing your evidence. “its true because the bible says so” or “alex jones says”)

Appeal to probability
(could have happened this way, there for, did happen this way)

Bare Assertion
(ArticleA says that Saddam has WMD. Another article, ArticleB, says that ArticleA is true. Conclusion: Therefore, Saddam has WMD.)

And of course a special for Alex Jones and CO.
“Proof by verbosity” or “argumentum verbosium”
(Spewing out so many facts and details that without the ability to simply go down the long list…one is supposed to assume that the whole or much of the conclusion is valid simply based on the complexity of the explanation).

Enjoy

end of spam transmission

and for the record mr Mabe,
I was blessed by the teachings of the immortal Rev. Bill Hicks with the insight into the beast that we see on the stage today. Through the power of his teachings we can see what the antichrist looks like and how he kackles at your getting all caught up in the conspiracy as much as the true believers in Bush got caught up in hating “islamofascists”. You two are like peas in a pod and despite it all, I love you because I’ve seen god and he was revealed the Rev. Bill Hicks.
end of spam transmission.

Yes, please tell Susan, our great steward, that the community is thinking of her and wishing good healing.

you’d also have to believe that NY and Washington DC city officials conspired with the Bush administration [and al Qaeda] to horribly murder thousands of their fellow Americans.

No… just SOME officials.

Also, you don’t have to believe that WTC 1 and 2 had explosives in them prior to the airplanes hitting them, though, there IS evidence such as the reports of eyewitnesses hearing explosions from the basement upwards by WTC staff and firefighters.

There are two camps; the “they knew and allowed it” and the “they helped” camps.

Either way, we are talking major treason here. But, we have ex-administration official’s (Paul Craig Roberts) warning us of false-flag attacks possibly being used to justify attacking Iran and ex-administration official’s telling us that the neo-con’s would have found some justification to attack Iraq even if it took a false flag attack (Victor Gold).

False flag attacks have been around for a long, long time and are part of a governments “arsenal”. That is fact.

But, as I have repeatedly pointed out… on the morning of 9/11, Bush was in Sarasota Florida at an elementary school with a travel team of Secret Service. Andrew Card told him, on camera, that America was under attack. Did the Secret Service hustle him out? No. By that time, they KNEW that airplanes were being used as weapons. What could they do to protect the President at an elementary school from that? Nothing. Yet, they didn’t get him mobile in the motorcade? Why not?

When THAT question is answered, we will start to know more about 9/11.

Leslie, I suggested once before that the spam filter was responding to a large amount of embedded links when it put the kibosh on one of Shirin’s link-rich posts.

I’ll do so again, in light of the content of Bill Keyes’ comment above. It’a spammentary hallmark.

Note to Bill: No, I’m not saying your comment is spammentary.

Nailed it, Montag, well said.

Rob Mabe, you may want to consider going door to door to spread the troo fax about the WTC collapse, with pamphlets that lay out your case. Suggested names: “Awake!” and “Watchtower,” if not already taken.

Good Luck!

Rob Mabe writes: All you offer is ridiculous sarcasm. I offer sincere sentiment…

That’s rich, coming from the guy who introduced his topic– off topic and appropos of nothing, incidentally– by calling the proprietor of the blog a neo-con shill and anyone not chugging his brand of conspiracy koolaid ignorant.

You wanna be treated respectfully, stop saying stupid shit, dumb ass.

We know courage is in short supply so that alone would make people keep their mouths shut.

Monday, April 03, 2006
9/11: a 7-Man Job
A common objection to the argument that 9/11 was an inside job is that the conspiracy would be too big to keep quiet. In other words, the argument is that it is impossible that so many people could have kept quiet for so long. SOMEONE would have talked or made a mistake, so that the conspiracy would have been discovered.

Is that true? Maybe.

But 9/11 Was Much Bigger

But 9/11 would have involved a much bigger conspiracy theory, which – unlike the examples above – would have been too big to keep quiet. Right?

Not necessarily.

NATO’s Italian terror campaign would have involved quite a few people.

Pearl Harbor, according to top historians, involved hundreds of people.

9/11, in contrast, could have involved fewer people.

Indeed, one could argue that it involved ONE person. Let’s say — just as an example randomly pulled out of a hat — Vice President Dick Cheney.

Cheney was apparently in charge of the entire U.S. government’s counter-terrorism program prior to 9/11, and in charge of ALL 5 of the war games which occurred on 9/11, and Mr. Cheney also coordinated the government’s “response” to the attacks. See this CNN article; and this essay. Being in charge of all counter-terrorism in the U.S., Cheney was probably the person who moved up major war games so that they would overlap with games and terror drills already planned for 9/11. And see this interview of the former head of the Star Wars program and a former Air Force colonel.

And Cheney is the one who monitored flight 77 for many miles as it approached the Pentagon and — when a military man asked “do the orders still stand?” — Cheney responded affirmatively:

“The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out.” And when it got down to, “The plane is 10 miles out,” the young man also said to the vice president, “Do the orders still stand?” And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, “Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?” Watch the video for yourself.

In addition, a former Los Angeles police department investigator, whose newsletter is read by 45 members of congress, both the house and senate intelligence committees, and professors at more than 40 universities around the world, claims that Cheney was in charge of the entire military and the secret service during the 9/11 attacks, that the secret service has its own communications system which is parallel to and can even cut into normal military communication channels.

Most people acknowledge that Cheney is one of the most powerful vice presidents in history. In addition, Cheney has a long-standing history of falsifying and manipulating facts and taking brutal actions in furtherance of his imperial goals. For example, in the 70′s — Cheney was instrumental in generating fake intelligence exaggerating the Soviet threat in order to undermine coexistence between the U.S. and Soviet Union, which conveniently justified huge amounts of cold war spending. See also this article. And the former director of the CIA accused Cheney of overseeing torture policies. Colin Powell’s former chief of staff also stated that Dick Cheney is guilty of war crimes. I’m not trying to be long-winded about Mr. Cheney’s resume. I’m simply pointing out that Mr. Cheney seems to have the ability to make large U.S. policy decisions and take sweeping actions — and to order others to do so — without much problem.

Now, of course, there was probably more than one person involved in this hypothetical example. Mr. Cheney would probably have had 1 guy manning the secret service communications system and another guy sitting at a computer inserting false radar blips onto air traffic controllers’ screens. But this demonstrates that you didn’t need thousands to pull off 9/11.

Wrecking Crew

Let’s take it one step further. How many people would it have taken to demolish World Trade Center buildings 1, 2 and 7 with bombs? Hundreds? Thousands?

How about 3.

Specifically, there was plenty of opportunity to plant bombs in the Twin Towers. By way of example only:

Bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly and inexplicably removed from the Twin Towers in the weeks preceding 9/11

There was a power down in the Twin Towers on the weekend before 9/11, security cameras were shut down, and many workers ran around busily doing things unobserved

The Twin Towers had been evacuated a number of times in the weeks preceding 9/11

And, as an interesting coincidence, a Bush-linked company ran security at the trade centers

So here’s a potential scenario:

One guy in the Bush-linked security company lets in the bomb-setters;

A 2-man crew of demolition experts sets the radio-controlled explosives while everyone is out of the building;

And the same crew detonates the explosives using a radio transceiver.

That adds only 3 more guys.

So, we’re now up to perhaps 7 people total to pull off 9/11 (Cheney, another guy making sure intelligence warnings aren’t acted on, the secret service agent and the the radar guy, the security guy and the two-man demolition crew).

9/11 Comission Cover-Up

continue

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/04/911-7-man-job.html

Cee,
Now THAT’S what I’m talking about! Well done!

Shirin,
Perhaps you haven’t read this breaking news, which I paste here in part from Prisonplanet.com reporter Paul Joseph Watson, October 19, 2007:

“The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.

In a recent letter (PDF link) to 9/11 victim’s family representatives Bill Doyle and Bob McIlvaine, NIST states, “We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse.”

A 10,000 page scientific study only offers theories as to how the “collapse initiation” proceeded and fails to address how it was possible for part of a WTC structure to fall through the path of most resistance at freefall speed, completely violating the accepted laws of physics.
In addition, NIST’s own studies confirmed that virtually none of the steel in either tower reached temperatures hotter than 500 degrees. The point at which steel weakens is 1000 degrees and melting point is reached at 1,500 degrees, according to NIST itself.
NIST have yet to properly address the sudden freefall collapse of WTC Building 7, which imploded on the late afternoon of 9/11 despite not being hit by a jetliner.”

As I have repeatedly stated, the facts speak for themselves.
You can read the entire article for yourself at
http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/161007_nist_unexplainable.html

correction: Date of article should read October 16, 2007.

I am not interested in gaining respectful treatment from barely literate would-be brown shirt potty mouths.
Check out the FACTS and check your bias at the door.

Chris,
I am not sure whether you are sincerely deluded by religion, or if your statements are a convoluted attempt at dark sarcasm. In any event, I will state again that I am not asking anyone to BELIEVE anything (politically, or religiously for that matter) What I challenge everyone in this community, and in our society at-large to do is this: CHECK THE FACTS OF 9/11. There are ample resources available. And not merely “tinfoil hat-wearing” ideologues, but experts in physics, aeronautics, metallurgy and other pertinent sciences, as well as former high-ranking military men and women who, upon investigation of the FACTS, have voiced eloquent and pointed opinions that fly in the face of the “official story”. Healthy skepticism is just that. Healthy. However, what I see the most of is entrenched bias and dogmatic believe concerning the official 9/11 theory. The cure for ignorance is KNOWLEDGE. But one must WANT to be cured before any progress can be made.

Chris, it’s nice to see you getting a taste of your own medicine!

Sept. 20001 9am oval Office..
Ring ring
Bush: Hello?
Cheeny: George ya there?
Bush: Hi Dick! Gosh i love my new job..nice house, people waiting on me..Uh what’s this?
Background voice: Don’t touch that button mr. president!! zzzzeeeesssuuuss crap!
Bush: ok..ok..no need to get so upset..it’s just a little football.
Dick: George…we need to kill us a ton of americans.. understood?
Bush: You mean iranians? Russians?
Dick: George: it needs to be americans..and alot of them..
Bush: Torture?
Dick: no..no..no.. Do i have to explain everything to you george>
Background voice: Mr. President..Don’t mess with the damn football!!!
Bush: ok, ok..now what were you saying? I wasn’t listening..
Dick: I got this crazy plan and it just might work..
We sneak into the world trade center buildings and plant thousands of pounds of explosives and wire them all up and kaboom!!
Bush: Ok..ummm Dick..why? Can’t I just blow up Iran? I got this neat little football..
Dick: No!! If we want to go to war we need to kill thousands of americans for no real reason..blame it on terrorists..like osama bin laden.
Bush: Who?
Dick: Bin Laden you idiot..
Bush: OH that’s right..Obama..the guy that’s your 8th cousin..Man that is really pissing you off isn’t it? Get over it Dick..
Dick: Look this plan is failsafe..as long as no real crazy terrorists fly fully loading jets into the tower we are free and clear..
Bush: Like obama?
Dick: Osama for god’s sake!!
Bush: oh yea, you’re cousin..
Bush: so you want me to sign off on killing as many people as I can? Are you fu*cking nuts?
Why not also just fly a plane into the white house and kill laura and I?
Dick: We’ll I hadn’t thought about it…mmm..makes me the president and all..
Bush: Dick..I think you need a hunting trip to clear your head..
Dick: ok..wanna go with?
Bush: Well it is tempting but Rummy told me he had alot more toys for me to play with today…
Background Voice: mr. president!!! You just scrambled B-52′s from Minot!! What the hell are you doing?
Bush: Well, Dick..I gotta go..i think i made a boo boo here…

A radio controlled demolition? Not likely.

It’s not difficult to see that NYC is what most people would call an RF-rich environment. The chances of a stray bit of RF triggering would be far too great.

In non-battlefield scenarios involving things that explode, the norm is no RF. For good reason. Do a little digging on “induction” to see why.

It’s OK Bill. I didn’t see it as a personal attack, just frustration. FYI, the spam filter has blocked my comments on occasion too, even though I’m a contributor with de-spamming powers. So go figure.

Also like you and Hoopster,
I tend to get emotional about 9/11 as well. For that reason it’s really difficult to believe that 9/11 was a US conspiracy, considering how many people would’ve had to have been involved at the federal, state and city level. And that those people would watch as their co-workers, friends, neighbors were slaughtered without speaking out. The coordinated attack by 16-hijackers is bad enough!

Still, we’ve never received an accurate account of what happened either, and we owe it to ourselves to have one. We also ought to have accountability from the government for the myriad mistakes made, so we know they won’t happen again. But that probably won’t happen in our lifetimes.
=================

Hoopster,
Hope you will share your 9/11 account when you feel like it? I’d be very interested in hearing it.

The steel of the WTC didn’t even need to reach the melting point. You heat up metal to a certain point and it will become malleable. It will bend and distort, especially if it’s supporting significant weight.

I’d like to expand on the point I make above to leslie about the Secret Service and Bush in Florida.

First, one of the arguments used is that the airline transponders were turned off so the FAA and military intercept couldn’t locate them. That’s fine. Given that, how then could the Secret Service know where the airplanes were, or, where they were heading?

Second, when asked why Bush wasn’t hustled out of the elementary school, one of the reasons given (and there were a few), was that he was never in any danger. How could they know that if they didn’t know where the planes were heading?

Third, by the time Andrew Card tells Bush America is under attack, two planes had already impacted their targets, and, at least one, if not both, of the other planes were already hijacked. Since there had already been two strikes by planes at the time Andrew Card tells the President we’re under attack, time is now crucial because the Secret Service would have no clue if the school was targeted and when that attack could hit the school. So, why were protection protocols not put into effect immediately?

Fourth, the Secret Service in the White House hustled Cheney into the secure bunker in the basement either at the same time Bush was told (around 9:05 am) or not much later. The accounts vary on the exact time. However, the point is that, without knowing the targets and that an attack was in progress, the Secret Service at the White House got Cheney to a secure location and the Secret Service in Florida did nothing. Why?

Fifth, there is evidence that Bush might have known about the hijackings prior to even getting to the school. This is significant, not because the photo op continued, but, that the Secret Service would have known about it and as soon as the second strike hit, they would be in full “OS” mode. A third plane could have conceivably be diving in on them at that very moment. Yet, the Secret Service did nothing. Why?

And lastly, is just how long the Secret Service actually did nothing. Bush was told between 9:05 and 9:07am by Andrew Card that America was under attack. Bush did not leave the classroom of the elementary school until between 9:13 and 9:16am. But, he still didn’t leave the school. Bush’s motorcade didn’t leave the elementary school until 9:35am… a full 30 minutes after being told that America was under attack and having two hijacked planes having already struck their intended targets while a third, and even fourth plane, were in the air. So, we are not talking merely a minute or two, but, a full half hour the Secret Service in Florida stood by idle while Bush did a photo op. The question then becomes, why did the Secret Service do nothing for a full half hour?

The answer here is, and can only be, that they were ordered to stand down and abandon their protection protocols. The question now becomes, who ordered that stand-down, and why? That America was under attack was not in question; it was. That President Bush was exposed at the elementary school, a photo op that was publicized, is not in question; he was. So, who ordered the Secret Service to stand down? Was it Andrew Card? Was it Tenet himself? Who? and, better yet, why?

By all protocols, Bush should have been out of the elementary school within minutes of the second tower being struck and the school ordered to evacuate students since it is now a viable target and there is a viable threat… yet, none of that occurred. And if you are buying that they didn’t evacuate Bush AND the school because they didn’t want to “scare the children” when there was a viable, possibly imminent threat of attack on the school, I have a bridge to sell you.

Given that Ashcroft stopped flying commercial in July 2001, months prior to 9/11, there was a known credible threat already in the air. Given that Rice tried to say that the intelligence they learned that summer was “chatter”, while Ashcroft stopped flying under credible threat, has to be bogus. Given that in June 2001 the CJCSI for protocol of hijacked civilian aircraft was changed, we can begin to see that the threat was known for a full 5 months prior to 9/11. But, ON 9/11, the President of the United States was allowed to stay vulnerable, during an attack that the Secret Service, the FAA, and NORAD couldn’t track, nor defend against, for a full 30 minutes… all because he wasn’t “in any danger”???? Bush is allowed to stay vulnerable while Cheney in the White House is secured by the Secret Service agents????

This is, I believe, the proverbial “smoking gun” of 9/11; Bush at the elementary school and the lack of action by the Secret Service. This is, I believe, the exact evidence people cry wanting to be shown.

I believe that at the very least they had already intercepted intelligence that told them what the targets were because someone who held that knowledge was pretty darn sure Bush was safe in Florida that morning but Cheney was in danger in the White House. So, what did they do to prevent the attacks? I know one thing they did do; draft the Patriot Act and have it waiting to spring on Congress AFTER the attacks occurred. We know that the President’s trip to Florida was scheduled only 4 days prior to 9/11 (on Sept 7th). Which, by sheer coincidence, is the exact same day Gov. Jeb Bush signed an order in Florida to activate the military in response to a national emergency that included acts of terrorism. So, we have quite a strong case that they knew on Sept. 7th something major was up, and, we have a strong case that they even knew the targets of the attack given the lack of Secret Service action in Florida.

So, for those 4 days… what did they do to prevent the attacks or minimize the loss of life on that day? Were the WTC towers ordered to be closed? Were airports alerted? Was NORAD on alert, or, were they running simulated terror attacks of airlines being hijacked?

Very clever Hoopster!

A little too close to reality for comfort!

Rob, I will try to give your article a more careful read later when I have more time and can give it full attention. However, a quick look reveals that it is anything but an unbiased account of the NIST report, and I am betting that the NIST report does not say what you claim it does.

The cover-up continues.

Evidence in 9/11 Damages Cases Is Restricted

By ANEMONA HARTOCOLLIS
Published: October 18, 2007
The federal judge hearing damages cases filed by families of Sept. 11 victims has tightly restricted evidence that one family may present at the first trial.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/nyregion/18suit.html?ex=1193371200&en=13e1a673f81efbc5&ei=5070&emc=eta1

I’m not the only one who thinks there is a cover-up.

Those who choose the fund waive their rights to bring lawsuits against American firms and government agencies. (Foreign nationals may still be sued by those who have accepted money from the fund.) Of the 2,823 people eligible for the fund, more than 500 have chosen to accept payments, according to the Department of Justice.

“I thought I’d go for the fund at first. I was thankful for it,” said Julie Sweeney, 29, whose husband, Brian, died aboard United Airlines flight 175 out of Logan International Airport in Boston. “But the more I learned about it, the more angry I became. I think it is there to tempt people to move on with their lives, tax free, so they won’t ever sue. I call it a government buyout. It screamed ‘coverup.’” Sweeney, from Massachusetts, filed her suit on March 6 after spending time researching airport security on the Internet and meeting with Schiavo.

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2002/06/06/suits/index.html

Rob Mabe thoughtfully suggests: Check out the FACTS and check your bias at the door.

Already did, Sonny.

As an illustration of the kind of dopey fact that’s got you and other WTC collapse evengelists’ panties in a wad, let’s examine the one and only such fact presented here in this forum by you in defense of your arguments, to wit:

Rob Mabe again: GIVE ME A BREAK! Steel begins to melt at 2800F, and the hottest diesel fuel (yes, jet fuel is just diesel) burns under controlled conditions is 1800F! Ever notice how your wood stove somehow resists warping and melting into a puddle, no matter how hot and roaring your fire becomes? THINK PEOPLE! The “melting steel” theory is just not possible!

There, buried amid the many admonitions to THINK! and WAKE UP! and what not, is the claim that the collapse of the WTC towers could not possibly have occurred as a result of melting steel because the melt point of steel is 2800f.

As has been pointed out by Shirin and Leslie, the melt point– the temperature at which steel liquefies– is not relevant here.

What is relevant is the temperature at which steel softens sufficiently to deform under pressure– namely the pressure of several floors above it bearing down upon the load bearing members comprised of it. This is relevant, because this is what is shown to have happened to the WTC towers that day, repeatedly, conclusively, endlessly.

Thus, your stupid and dishonest argument– and remember, it is your only such attempt at one here– falls more swiftly to the ground than either the north or south tower did, and it is demonstrated that you either are a liar or don’t know what the hell you are talking about.

QED.

In support of the latter, I’ll point out in passing that you have incorrectly identified the melt point of steel as 2800f. You’re thinking of iron, dummy. Structural steel, as any engineer could probably tell you if you’d bother to ask, always has a lower melt point as the result of its higher carbon content.

Shirin writes: Chris, it’s nice to see you getting a taste of your own medicine!

Yeah, guess he sure put me in my place, a sound thrashing I won’t soon forget, boy I’ll say [yawn].

Thanks for the spade work on the debunking of the melt point argument, sister.

ChrisV writes: As has been pointed out by Shirin and Leslie, the melt point– the temperature at which steel liquefies– is not relevant here…

And of course [slaps forehead], Teaeopy, whose original comment to this effect precipitated Rob’s dopey lying argument.

Sorry, Tea!

Thank you for proof reading my entry after I apparently had not. I stated 2800F, but what I had meant to write was 1800F. In my rush to write I overlooked that. NIST states that the melting point for steel is around 1500F and the weakening point is 1000F. NIST also states that the hottest ANY steel in the twin towers got was 500F, far below the weakening point. Get a grip on yourself. I committed a typo.

NIST states that the melting point for steel is around 1500F and the weakening point is 1000F. NIST also states that the hottest ANY steel in the twin towers got was 500F, far below the weakening point. These are scientific facts not subject to bias. The steel never got hot enough to weaken, let alone warp and fail. It is just not possible.

Shirin,
Well, if you are willing to BET on it, then you MUST be right. Read the report and then let me know what you owe me…

The NIST Report on the WTC collapse is here, not at the Jones Report.

Here’s what NIST says about the fire and the collapse of the steel support columns:

How could the WTC towers have collapsed without a controlled demolition since no steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to fires? Temperatures due to fire don’t get hot enough for buildings to collapse.

The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large, jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.

About steel melting, the NIST said:

7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified … to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.

If people are going to quote the NIST, they ought to be sure they’re quoting the NIST. Just a thought.

Did I mention that NIST stated in their report that the hottest that ANY steel in EITHER tower could have gotten was about 500F. AND that the weakening point of that steel was around 1000F? FAR BELOW the point distortion, buckling or failure (the fire was not even hot enough to break the glass windows either). AND don’t forget that the fire was isolated to a small portion of the steel structure and that the towers where ridiculously overbuilt. But then, you probably can’t be bothered with the facts. You seen too busy spewing sarcastic venom to let the facts get in the way of of your crippled version of the truth. Nasty things, those darned facts!

Chris,
Oh, ONE other thing for you to consider while you are polishing your jack boots for the brown shirt parade: NO HIGHRISE STEEL STRUCTURE HAD EVER COLLAPSED FROM FIRE, EITHER BEFORE OR SINCE 9/11! EVER! This includes fires that burned hot for MANY days on MANY floors at once to the point of gutting everything but the steel and concrete! Whereas the WTC tower fires burned for only 40 minutes and 103 minutes respectively before collapsing! WTC7 was not hit by a plane, had only a few small fires (again, not even hot enough to break the glass windows) and yet it too collapsed with ALL of the distinct signatures of a CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. All of the juvenile sarcasm in the world won’t make these facts go away.

Leslie, with even a quick, casual glance at the “Jones Report” it was pretty clear that they were misrepresenting what NIST had said. Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading all that.

Thanks for the clarification on the fire temps. I obviously do not have a solid grasp on the C vs F transpositions. However, the point I made is still valid. The fires were not hot enough to bring down the towers in 40min and 103min respectively. No steel frame buildings have ever collapsed due to fire in the history of steel framed structures, before or since 9/11.

Oh, I didn’t do any “spade work”, I just applied a little bit of common sense – something that seems to be increasingly lacking in this world.

rob
No steel frame buildings have ever collapsed due to fire in the history of steel framed structures, before or since 9/11.

So exactly how many fully fueled Boeing 767 airliners have crashed into steel framed structures before or since 9-11?
So what does that augument mean? zip.
so a month after 9-11 OBL is caught on tape bragging about what a wonderful job he and his terrorists buddies did.( The highjack and crashing of the planes). You saw that right?
HE CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ATTACK!
But that won’t change your mind will it? Not the 9-11 report, Not OBL’s own words, not scientific studies, not common sense, Not your own eyes.
You’ll just try to come up with another clever obscure wacky augument to prove the bumbling B$sh could possible pre-plan and pull off 9-11.
You do see how well bush plans don’t you? Ha!
You see how greedy Bush is don’t you? Why blow up his golden egg?
You see how Dumb Bush is don’t you? Smart enough to pull off 9-11.. Hell he can barely talk clearly.
Well Rob..believe what you want..who cares anyway.. I’m done with you..Time for another topic..
How about how Bush caused AID’s?
_____________________________________
Note: One the worst feeling i have ever felt is sitting here defending George Bush on anything at anytime..I need to go vomit now..thanks for that Rob.
The Hoopster

ummmm… you do know that the video you are talking about with OBL has already been called a fake, right?

Hoopster,
Exactly…. Meet you at the vomitorium.

The issue is not the fires, the issue is as ROB pointed out, how soon after the the planes hit the buildings, they fell and how fast they fell.

At this link is a challenge and discussion of just one point of the conclusions of the 9/11 commission that does not hold water, the so called “pancake” theory of the collapse. It is not based on kooks, crazies or conspiracy nuts, it is based on simple high school physics.

It is rather long, but is presented in a way that anyone can follow even if you only have a rudimentary understanding of physics.

The conclusion of this article which I believe is not to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was controlled demolition, or a conspiracy or whatever but to show that the authors of the pancake theory did not take into account the physics of the collapses and they would have to argue with Sir Issac Newton to justify their conclusions.

So if this conclusion is wrong how many of the other conclusions of the 9/11 Commission might be wrong?

Okay you ask, I read it, you’ve made your point, now what do you people want??

Simple…

We want a True, Independent, non-classified-for-for-”national-security”-bullshit-purposes, completely open to the public examination of all the evidence, (whatever is left) and facts gathered to date, by Real Crime Scene investigators who work for Real Crime scene agencies, that would lead to Real conclusions, which could be presented to Real prosecutors, who would arrest Real suspects (if some are still alive), present their cases to a Real Judge and Jury who would then determine guilt or innocence of the accused and meet out punishment if found guilty.

This is how we handle a crime that is committed in the US.

To date there has been no CRIMINAL investigation of the horrendous crime.

The 9/11 commission was a sham, and a travesty and an insult to the intellgence of the American people.

I ask you, how was the horrendous crime against the good people of Oklahoma handled?

Just as I outlined above.

Was justice served?

Answer…Yes.

Are the families of the victims satisfied”

Answer……Yes

Are they happy Timothy McVeigh is dead?

Answer……Yes

Have they grieved, put closure on their grief and moved on with their lives ?

Answer….Yes

Was there this type of investigation into the CRIMES 9/11/01?

Answer….NO

Has justice been served?

Answer….NO

Do those whose loved ones died on that awful day believe justice has been served?

Answer….I doubt it.

Have they also grieved, put closure on their grief and moved on with their lives?

Answer…..I doubt it.

Why………Because if justice is not served there will never be closure.

Why has there not been an investigation into the events of 9/11/01??

Answer…..Rob and I know. You already know what our answer is.

ok forget to put the link…..

http://www.911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml

Oh goody, my favorite kind of bullshit: More lies in an attempt to cover the first.

The melt point of steel– still irrelevant, so I don’t know why you keep bringing it up, except to deflect attention from the disingenuity of your argument– is not 1500f, not 1800f, and not 2800f, so you’re 0 for three, Sonny. I don’t know where you got your “NIST” figures, but I can guess– you pulled ‘em out of your ass.

But, here’s your chance, bright boy: Go ahead, make me a liar– provide quotes from the NIST publication that support your ludicrous contentions. Pardon me, but I won’t be holding my breath.

The contention that the steel of the impacted floors of the WTC never exceeded 500f defies common sense (especially since, as you’ve pointed out, jet fuel, when burned in a controlled environment, produces an 1800f fire). Think, dummy: Common kitchen ovens can produce 550f easily with a single gas jet array or electric element, and of course, Ray Bradbury teaches us that a mere 451f is required to ignite paper. You think a plane crash, fanned by the higher altitude wind of a September morn couldn’t produce a hotter fire than that?

And lastly, typo, my ass (and Shirin’s Great Aunt Fatima!). The argument you presented here– complete with incorrect melt point– is identical to the argument repeatedly presented on many of the sites you link to, which presents the melt point red herring exactly as you do.

Your mistake isn’t in your typing. It is in bringing your half-baked and deluded argument to an audience that isn’t patient or dumb enough to put up with it.

Better luck elsewhere.

Rob Mabe writes: Oh, ONE other thing for you to consider while you are polishing your jack boots for the brown shirt parade:

Hm, brown shirt, jack boots. Oh, I get it, I’m a mean old nazi, which must make you a brave victim of the brute force of massed Third Reich Armies– metaphorically speaking, that is.

Aw, quit yer crying. You led with your mouth, tried a coupla wild swings, and now you’re sitting on the sidewalk with a bloody nose and a mouthfulla chiclets.

Metaphorically speaking, that is. Get over it. And wipe your nose.

Well done, Leslie!

Rob Mabe writes: However, the point I made is still valid. The fires were not hot enough to bring down the towers in 40min and 103min respectively. No steel frame buildings have ever collapsed due to fire in the history of steel framed structures, before or since 9/11.

C’mon, Rob, as the NIST report points out, it’s not the fire alone, but the combination of structural damage caused by a jet and a building trying to occupy the same physical space combined with the weakening effect of the fire– unique in this county’s history.

Say hello to Occam’s razor. So what’s the problem?

And there were leaks on the Manhattan Project. Klaus Fuchs, who was on the project, secretly gave information to the Soviets.

It was also of limited duration. Once it was over, people could talk, at least about some aspects of it.

Uh, country’s history, that is.

Well, as far as the question of leaks goes: there have been leaks on a lot of the other controversial WH programs. That’s how we’ve found out about them. And some of them, they’ve never discovered the leakers. Don’t you think on something this momentous, that someone would have been disgusted enough to leak?

Occam’s razor is the enemy of conspiracy theorists. On the contrary, in their world, the more complex, and convoluted it is the more likely it is to be true.

Yes, Delia, and in any case, to suggest any analogy at all between the Manhattan Project (or even the Gulf of Tonkin incident), and September 11 defies logic and common sense.

The Manhattan Project was an official, classified project that took place during a world war and had the the goal of producing a particular type of weapon to be used against foreign enemies on foreign enemy soil. The September 11 attacks, regardless of who planned and perpetrated them, were massive, spectacular attacks on U.S. soil intended to destroy U.S. targets and murder thousands of U.S. citizens.

Or careless enough to let something slip out in an unguarded moment? Secrets are broken that way all the time in large and small ways.

uh…dude…Bill Hicks is a dead comedian from Houston…get a life.

Want to die like this? The death of this woman may sent people a message.

FBI probes death of driver’s license examiner
Woman gave licenses to men being checked for terrorist links
February 15, 2002 Posted: 11:19 PM EST (0419 GMT)

From Kevin Bohn and Deborah Feyerick
CNN Washington

WASHINGTON (CNN) — The death of a Tennessee driver’s license examiner accused of helping six illegal immigrants get false drivers’ licenses was no accident, the FBI said Friday.

Katherine Smith was found burned to death in her car early Sunday, a day before she was to be arraigned on federal charges she helped five Middle Eastern men and one juvenile get fake driver’s licenses earlier this month. The five adults are under investigation for possible ties to the September 11 terrorist attacks, law enforcement officials said.

Smith’s car was on fire when it struck a utility pole on a rural highway about 30 miles from Memphis, FBI agent Suzanne Nash said Wednesday. Smith’s clothing had been soaked with gasoline, leaving her burned beyond recognition, according to authorities.

The FBI said Smith’s death was either a homicide or a suicide.

Agencies reportedly got hijack tips in 1998

MORE STORIES

Intelligence intercept led to Buffalo suspects

Report cites warnings before 9/11

EXTRA INFORMATION

Timeline: Who Knew What and When?

Interactive: Terror Investigation

Terror Warnings System

Most wanted terrorists

What looks suspicious?

In-Depth: America Remembers

In-Depth: Terror on Tape

In-Depth: How prepared is your city?

RESOURCES

On the Scene: Barbara Starr: Al Qaeda hunt expands?

On the Scene: Peter Bergen: Getting al Qaeda to talk

All six lived in New York and are illegal immigrants, according to law enforcement officials.

One of the men, Sakhera Hammad, had a visitor’s pass for the World Trade Center dated September 5, 2001. He told authorities he and his cousin, Abdelmuhsen Mahmid Hammad, also charged with trying to obtain a fake license, worked on the tower’s sprinkler systems — a claim authorities have not been able to corroborate.

Investigators say they are also intrigued by the fact that another man implicated in the scam, Khaled Odtllah, drove from New York City to Memphis on September 11.

“As a citizen and as an FBI agent, that’s very disconcerting to me that these Middle Eastern males are coming down from New York City to Tennessee to get false driver’s licenses,” said Phil Thomas of the FBI. “We’re hoping we would get a handle on what type of traffic this is.”

But authorities acknowledge the men could have had nothing to do with the attacks.

The other named suspects in the license scam are Mohammed Fares and Mostafa Said Abou-Shahin. All were arrested on February 7.

Affidavit: Men paid $1,000 for fake licenses
According to an FBI affidavit filed last week, Smith told authorities “that she had accepted Tennessee driver’s license applications from Khaled Odtallah, which were already filled out.” The applications “were not accompanied by proper documentation, and (Smith) had put them into the system so that individuals on the applications would receive Tennessee driver’s licenses.”

The affidavit portrays Odtallah as the scheme’s ringleader, paying $1,000 per fake license.

Odtllah, Hammad and the four other defendants are alleged to have driven February 5 to a driver’s license station in Memphis. They departed about an hour later in two automobiles, accompanied by a juvenile who has not been identified publicly.

Smith had told investigators she issued seven driver’s licenses, at Odtallah’s request, without proper authentication documents and without following proper procedures. She said she had bought her car from Odtallah.

According to the affidavit, Fares, Abou-Shahin and the juvenile said they were told they could get driver’s licenses if they paid $1,000 to Odtallah or Sakhera Hammad. Sakhera and Abdelmuhsen Hammad admitted they had previously received licenses without proper documentation, the affidavit said.

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:L0r_Z7iFI6EJ:www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/02/15/inv.licenser.death/+katherine+smith+car+accident+lived+in&hl=en

HoosierHoops,
Your arguments are so full of holes, it is pure joy on my part to debunk them all here:

“So exactly how many fully fueled Boeing 767 airliners have crashed into steel framed structures before or since 9-11?”

They following is excerpted from The Empire State Building Book by Jonathan Goldman:

“On the foggy morning of Saturday, July 28, 1945, a ten-ton, B-25 bomber smashed into the north side of the Empire State Building. The majority of the plane hit the 79th floor, creating a hole in the building eighteen feet wide and twenty feet high. The plane’s high-octane fuel exploded, hurtling flames down the side of the building and inside through hallways and stairwells all the way down to the 75th floor.Some debris from the crash fell to the streets below, sending pedestrians scurrying for cover, but most fell onto the buildings setbacks at the fifth floor. Still, a bulk of the wreckage remained stuck in the side of the building. After the flames were extinguished and the remains of the victims removed, the rest of the wreckage was removed through the building.
The plane crash killed 14 people (11 office workers and the three crewmen) plus injured 26 others. Though the integrity of the Empire State Building was not affected, the cost of the damage done by the crash was $1 million.”

I guess if the plane had been a Boeing 767 the building would have collapsed in 40 minutes…

“a month after 9-11 OBL is caught on tape bragging about what a wonderful job he and his terrorists buddies did.( The highjack and crashing of the planes). You saw that right?”

That tape was shown to be an obvious hoax immediately after it was aired.
Differences between the features of Osama bin Laden and the confessor include:
*Osama has a much taller and narrower nose.
*Osama has a less rounded brow ridge.
*Osama is less well nourished.
*Osama has lower and less full cheeks.
*Osama’s forehead slopes back more.
*Osama’s face is wider at the level of his eyes.
Watch the “Fatty” Bin Laden video compared to authentic Osama Bin Laden video tape at: http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/binladinvideo.html
All but the visually (or in your case, mentally) impaired can immediately see that the man in your “confessor” video is an obvious impostor.

“You see how greedy Bush is don’t you? Why blow up his golden egg?”

ARE YOU KIDDING?:

“At the time of 9-11, federal and state enforcement leaders were facing a mountain of documentation that up to $6 trillion had been fraudulently skimmed out of pension funds and retail stock holdings through insider trading and other forms of corporate and banking financial fraud and securities law violations.
The events of 9-11 are alleged to have destroyed significant amounts of documentation related to investigations against Wall Street firms and leading New York Federal Reserve members. Subsequent to 9-11, enforcement bureaucracies attention shifted in response to the Patriot Act and a shift in budgetary resources away from policing white collar crime by corporate and banking leadership.”

And that is just the tip of the iceburg. No evidence has surfaced (yet) that Bush profited personally from the attacks, but the evidence is plentiful that government agencies have seen dramatic increases in funding, as well as large corporations closely linked to the Bush administration, like Haliburton, The Carlyle and Kelllog, Brown, Root to name just a few (Between 2001 and 2005, the profits for 34 defense companies have climbed 189 percent. Profits for U.S. corporations as a whole rose 76 percent)
Blow up the golden egg? For the neo-cons, 9/11 gave birth to the greatest golden goose ever hatched, the greatest spending bonanza of all time!

The only valid point “The Hoopster” makes in his low-brow argument is that Bush is a bumbling idiot. Who could argue with that? Bush is purely a puppet of greater powers than he. Who then? How about Dick Cheney, the CFR, PNAC and other high level operatives within the alphabet agencies?

The biggest problem with your arguments, “Hoopster”, is that you have none. I suggest that you stop driving that 4-banger brain of yours on the intellectual autobahn. That fleeting whir your hearing is the truth just passing your a** by man. Beep Beep.

“I guess if the plane had been a Boeing 767 the building would have collapsed in 40 minutes…”

Depends upon how the building was constructed. I believe the Empire State Building and the WTC buildings were constructed very differently from one another.

Oh Robbie baby..
That tape was shown to be an obvious hoax immediately after it was aired.

No, i don’t believe so..The CIA declared it real and i think Larry will back that up.
The Empire state building? come on, I knew you’d say that..It is built like a bank Vault..The plane that hit the World trade center literally went right through the building..But I’ll conceed the point to you that B-25 plodding away at 250 knots is just like a modern day jet..twice the size at 500 knots..
Really Robbie.. Remember i said i was done with you..I am..but want to discuss a few of your insults briefly then wave goodbye as you fade away into the land of trolldom..

is that you have none. I suggest that you stop driving that 4-banger brain of yours on the intellectual autobahn..
( that’s a pretty good jab)
All but the visually (or in your case, mentally) impaired can immediately see that the man in your “confessor” video is an obvious impostor.
The guy was OBL..it is so obvious it’s not funny..But every world gov’t, intelligence group, federal group agree with me. But then again..remember i’m mentally impaired..

Now Robbie..The reason I’m not flaming you back after your rude insults is because..
quite frankly..I don’t get insulted much on blogs or in real life..So it’s kindof a new experience..I’m not really mad..I know if we met in real life that you wouldn’t have the courage to insult me to my face..So it’s all just words..And trust me robbie baby i’ve done some trash talking to bigger more athletic and meaner guys than you’ll ever know.
So i’m good..I really am done talking about 9-11 so direct your comments to other posters here or somewhere else..
Ok robbie baby…i think i hear your mama callin..

We want a True, Independent, non-classified-for-for-”national-security”-bullshit-purposes, completely open to the public examination of all the evidence,

Exactly. No Philip Zelikow to control the flow of evidence. No Lee Hamilton to help suppress evidence like he did during the Iran Contra investigation.

Will it happen? No. They’ll start another war or let us be attacked again first.

Rob – You’re a boorish asshole with terrible manners to boot. You come to Larry’s site and insult him, our host, with some batshit crazy allegation. Which is comparable to a person who enters someone’s home as a guest and takes a steamin’ dump in the living room – and then demands dinner be served.
So as far as I’m concerned, you get no courtesy or respect because you sure as hell don’t give it.
So maybe you should just have a nice bowl of fuck soup, call it a day and take your sorry, misbegotten ass somewhere else.
Sincerely,
Robert M Murray

Speaking of new war plans. They pissed off Turkey and are turning to Lebanon.

Who will stop these fools??

Didn’t Edelman say that Hillary was unpatriotic a few month ago? Note where he said America is about to see changes.

Friday, October 19, 2007
US military plans for Lebanon
The Lebanese newspaper As-Safir reported yesterday that a US delegation led by Eric Edelman (Assistant Defence Secretary for Political Affairs) recently presented to Lebanese prime minister Fouad Siniora and other Lebanese officials a draft military-cooperation agreement between the US and Lebanon, something the paper said was the culmination of a whole continuous series of US delegations to Lebanon that have been going on since the Israel Hizbullah war of summer 2006.

A Lebanese military expert cited by Press TV, Amin Hotait by name, said the project for a new US-Lebanon military arrangement has been under discussion for longer than that, at least since 2003, and he added that one of the key points is the American inability to secure the use of its big airbase at Incirlik in Turkey in the free and unregulated way that it wants. Hotait said this is part of an overall American plan for six new bases, three in Iraq, and one each in Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. He said the Lebanese base at Kleiat near Tripoli in the north will be called the center for the rehabilitation of the Lebanese Army, “in order to cover its real activity”. (The Press TV clip is available thanks to GlobalResearch.ca, here; there is also a summary from Al-Manar, whose main additional point is that politicians have started buying up land around the Kleiat base in anticipation of speculative profits once the plan is approved).

US ambassador Feltman initially ridiculed the As-Safir report, but then Edelman himself, in an interview with AP, acknowledged some of the key points, including the plan for a new strategic partnership, and tying the rearmament of the Lebanese army with the eventual disarmament of Hizbullah.

There are some important points in the As-Safir report that should be of particular interest to Americans:

(1) Military policy immune to politics
Edleman is quoted as having told the Lebanese authorities that America itself is about to see changes, but “politics is one thing and security is something else entirely,” in effect assuring them that US military policy is immune to politics. And on the Lebanese side, the newspaper noted the proposed agreement is something that wouldn’t have to be taken up by the Lebanese parliament either.

(2) A new cold war with Russia
As-Safir says the proposed military package includes more money for the Lebanese army, more US technical assistance, and most important of all, additional US military bases in Lebanon, including a US military base on the site of the existing Kleiat airfield in the north. The US delegation under Edelman talked America responding to a Russian threat via Syria:
The delegation stressed that the strong (?) Russian presence in northern Syria has come to pose a threat to the American presence in he region. They alluded to a “Russian-American cold war” and to new Russian movements and strategies in the region, that will require changes in American strategy…
The interpolated question mark is in the newspaper article itself.

(3) Ideological takeover
As-Safir said the US delegation went so far as to call for changing the official statement of basic guidelines for the Lebanese army, to eliminate the clause that talks about fraternal and special relationship with Syria, on the basis this is no longer justified, and also the clause that talks about supporting the resistance, on the basis that strengthening the army will eventually make that unnecessary. At the same time, the US delegation talked about the need for monitoring systems to make sure that weapons supplied to the Lebanese army don’t fall into the hands of other groups.

As-Safir said if the Lebanese government doesn’t come clean about the discussions, it will publish documents in its possession connected with these meetings. Press TV, for its part, noted that the proposals haven’t been implemented yet, and won’t be as long as the opposition stands firm against them.
http://arablinks.blogspot.com/

Yea..Taters gets a A+ on trash talk today..
Nice Call..
The hoopster picks taters on the next pickup game..
( we’ll put you in the power forward slot )

Thanks Hoopster – I’m truly glad to have a spot on your team.

Rob! Wait! You forgot to get your parking ticket stub validated!

…oh well.

You know what’s the best part? He actually seemed surprised to hear what his heavily cited NIST report contained. God, what a maroon.

Hopefully, a last add:

A number of these people showed up at Larry and Ray’s little talk in Venice a few months ago to interject their gospel into the public discourse and set the art of conversation back five hundred years, and were just as dopey and just as obnoxious as our man Rob. Not since the Jesus Freaks of the sixties have I seen so evangelically zealous and offensive a pack o louts, and that’s saying something.

WTC collapse conspiracy theorists: this is who you are standing shoulder to shoulder with. Take a look. Take a good, long look.

People can ask questions all day long about the collapse of the towers but not ask or get answers to simple questions.
I had the opportunity to ask Robert Baer about why some 9-11 hijackers were tracked in Malaysia and allowed to come to the US. We both want answers to who made the decision on that.
Anyone?
Who were members of the Pentagon who canceled their flights on 9-10? I asked a 9-11 debunking clown that question on CSPAN one morning. He looked like a deer caught in the headlights of the car and couldn’t answer.

Anyone have an answer here?

Trash talk gets us where?

Who says members of the Pentagon canceled their flights on 9/10?

The only person who reportedly stopped flying commercial before 9/11 was John Ashcroft. Where did you see members of the Pentagon cancelled their flights on 9/11?

Maybe he looked like a deer in the headlights, because he didn’t know what you were talking about?

Hi Cee:
why some 9-11 hijackers were tracked in Malaysia and allowed to come to the US.

We allow thousands of illegal aliens in the country every day..nothing out of the ordinary for our high priced inept security.
also:
Who were members of the Pentagon who canceled their flights on 9-10?
I cancel and reschedule flights all the time..It’s a fact of life for people that travel alot..
Regards,

Cee, our very existence is fraught with unanswered questions. Some folks, looking to tidy this up, say “God,” and I do my best to not laugh out loud when they do. Me, I say, simply, I don’t know.

No event, crimnal or otherwise, has ever occurred without leaving a handful of unknowns, first because we don’t have that good a handle on thinking, and second, because no event is ever exactly like another.

In the criminal realm, the suicide of Vince Foster comes to mind of course, because a great many people, already upset with the Clintons for whatever reason, seized upon the unknowns necessarily accompanying this event to try to paint poor Vince as a homicide and the Clintons as his murderers. They’re still doing it, years after the fact. I just googled “Foster Hillary”, and sure enough, the first hit– of 2,080,000– was tantalizingly titled “HILLARY’S FINGERPRINTS ON FOSTER’S RECORDS!”

[sigh] I don’t know what else to say, except an echo of Shirin’s comment above: the energy put into conspiracy theorizing would be well spent elsewhere.

Thanks Cee,

You got my point.

So I guess the disagreement here is whether you believe the 9/11 commission conclusions of what happened are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Some do, like Hoosierhoops, taters and others. Others like me, maybe you?, don’t.

When 9/11 occurred and immediately afterward, I was just as gungho to get whoever had done this to us as 99% of Americans were. I trusted and believed what we had been told by the Bush administration, and was ready to support my government to see that justice was served.

While I am a non violent pacifist at heart, I felt this horrendous attack on our soil and especially the huge loss of life and property should not go unpunished, so if OBL was in Afghanistan let’s go after him and bring him to justice. I also felt that a side effect of this effort would be to bring down the “evil” Taliban who probably not directly involved in the 9/11 events, but were guilty of “harboring a fugitive”.

We did then carry out this mission which we believed was right and today
while it still has problems I would hope everyone would agree that people of Afghanistan for the first time in maybe hundreds of years are experiencing a better life.

However something changed….the mission changed or as it is called in the military, “mission creep”.

We should have captured OBL, brought him and his cohorts to America to be tried, left a few troops in Afghanistan if they wanted us too, and got the hell out. End of “original mission” that the Bush administration asked us to support.

But it didn’t happen this way. We didn’t or couldn’t “capture” OBL or any of his cohorts and still haven’t done so to date.

So what happened next? Mission creep.

The mission was now being redefined to include an attack on Iraq because we were told Sadaam was in bed with OBL and therefore was also behind the attacks on 9/11. And a side issue that was added to the mission was that Sadaam was still a threat to “peace’ in the ME, had WMD’s so he should be overthrown. Again I was gungho along with 99% of Americans and a sigificant part of the rest of the world, we believed the “facts” Bush Administration presented to us and again we got behind them and supported an invasion of Iraq.

We went in with guns blazing and bombs blasting and lo and behold within days it was all over and our president declared “Mission Accomplished”.

But again something happened…..mission creep.

Was not the amended “original’ mission to overthrow Sadaam, capture him and bring him to justice along with OBL for their joint involvement in the attacks of 9/11?

Was not the mission to find and dismantle Sadaam’s WMD’s?

Shouldn’t we have again like in Afghanistan, immediately and quickly as possible determiined with the help of the UN inspectors whether Sadaam possed WMD’s?

Yes we did that and did not find any WMD’s. “Mission Accomplished”, Right?

Did we capture Sadaam and bring him to justice for his role in 9/11?

Well not exactly, we captured him but let the Iraqi judicial system bring him to justice for crimes against the Iraqi and because they executed him it saved us the trouble. “Mission Accomplished’ again”.

So what was left of the mission? Nothing.. the amended “original” mission was accomplished.

What’s left to do?

Bask in the limelight of the “grateful”, and free Iraqi’s who we were told would view us as their liberators, tell them we need to go home, but we will leave some troops in a garrison IF you want us to and WHERE EVER you want us too.

But again something happened….Mission exposure…

Soon it became evident that the mission was based on lots of lies and instead of going home and leaving a small garrison of troops behind we are still there.

So what is the mission now? Depends on which way the political wind is blowing?

Okay bill you long winded, SOB you say what the hell does this which we already know have to do with 9/11??

Simple…

We believed they were telling us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth we they told us what the mission was to avenge the attack on our soil on 9/11.

We believed them again when they asked us to support the amended “original” mission which was to invade Iraq.

We trusted them,,,,we know they lied to us….

So how can you still believe they told us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about what happened on 9/11?

rob mabe said:

Larry, I wonder if I am the only one to figure out that you are actually still working for the agency as a shill for the neocons.

Well rob, since you’re the fanatic supporter of a conspiracy theory, which Bush supporters will naturally point to as evidence of lunacy on the left, maybe in fact you are the ‘shill’.

It always amuses me to read about self-appointed experts in structural engineering with minimal data; reasoning in reverse by starting with a conclusion and cherry-picking the evidence working backwards. The large numbers of believers in this crap notwithstanding, some drink from the fountain of knowledge, and others just gargle.

Cee..Read taters reply to Rob..
He had it coming..I may be wrong but if you jump onto a blogsite and act like an asshole you will probably get treated like an asshole..
Karma i guess..Either way..who cares.. I only care about people who show respect and are nice to one another..We can disagree but be civil.
That way larry doesn’t have to employ a full time moderator for the site like FDL does.

To answer your question..Where does trash talk get us?
Once in High School I played basketball against Steve Downing..I trashed talked him and he dropped 22 points on me in about 12 minutes.
The Answer to your question..
On the bench.
have a nice day Cee..

Taters..I agree..The guy had an ass chewing coming..He started right off insulting Larry..and started a whole line of over the top rants and accused Larry of being part of “THE CONSPIRACY”..to cover everything up..What a laugh..He should do his homework ..think twice..or understand there are going to be reactions.. before he trys getting into other peoples faces..because someone eventually will just knock him on his ass..
and make sure he knows He’s a jerk..and out of line..Some people think it..and there there are
MEN who will say it..

Right “Gunny”..?

The way He came on made me mad too..I told him to get some Therapy..because his line of thinking is irrational..and over the top..

One can believe the Bush administration and Agencys could have done more to “Prevent” 9/11
and were negligent in not doing so..One may even suspect they held back just to see how far the Al Quadea terrorists were going to go..even to the point of anticipating the attack on the trade Center..or perhaps in being so Negligent
they couldnt even anticipate that action….for what ever reason..they allowed the terrorists to carry out the Act..and the all players are well documented..and so is the CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE..as well as the CRIMINAL ACTS..and the KNOWN FACTS are where one should Focus..like Larry has..

Otherwise ..taters..my friend..I think that Rob
must eat “DUCK SOUP”..because he is “QUACKED”..

See..CEE…its mostly a Guy thing..Just makes you feel better when you get things off your Chest..

If Rob was Smart..He would just admit He scewed
up…and say so..

Hey Patrick Henry – I hear ya, buddy. Once someone lays claim to being the only possessor of facts, then there is no dialogue. Actually, I could care less about his opinion, it was his terrible manners and his opening statement that lit me up.
Try posting on Crooks and Liars, Talking Points Memo or Daily Kos on 9/11 being an inside job and see how long the thread lasts. Unless someone is taking great pains to be a jerk, differing thought is welcomed here and Larry doesn’t stifle opinion. LJ is a gracious host and a classy guy. Rob? Well let’s just say he’s a less than gracious guest. Actually, he argues like a freeper. hmmmm…
Duck Soup/Quacked – funny.

Hoosierhoops said….

“We allow thousands of illegal aliens in the country every day..nothing out of the ordinary for our high priced inept security.”

Is this the same high priced inept security that protected us on 9/11?

“We allow thousands of illegal aliens in the country every day..”

Really and how do they get in? And also who is tallying these results?

Hoops I respect your opinion, man, but if what you say is true could you back it up with facts?

I live about 40 miles from Nogales,AZ/Mexico. border.

Yes it is porous and illegals get through, but I have lived here for 6 years and I know many hardworking Border patrol
agents personally including my landlord and they will tell you except for drug runners 99% of the illegals who come through the AZ border with Mexico are from Mexico and are poor desperate people trying to seek a better life.

So if you are implying that our 9/11 terrorist problem was or is due to our lax border security, then maybe all these thousands of illegals you talk about are coming across the Canadian border.

Canada, terrorist haven of the world?

Mexico terrorist haven of the world?

You will be glad to know however that at least today there is one less illegal alien running loose in our country.

My wife teaches at a Charter high School in Tucson, that is 95% hispanic.

Most of the students are, as the respectful term for them is, “documented”, however the school does not check whether
every one is documented.

A young man in her class had been absent for several days. She found out that his uncle had died here and he was trying help the family get his body back to Mexico for burial.

Today his named appeared on the dropped out of school list.

Why??

She found out he is in a Federal detention center in Eloy,AZ.

Why?

Because is his grief he forgot that he was NOT “documented” and when he couldn’t produce any “documents” when he was trying to arrange for his uncle’s
transfer, the INS was alerted and you already know the rest.

Was justice served, hoops, do you feel safer?

hey Bill.I feel ya..maybe this is a misunderstanding..Thousands of illegals come over daily..I’m just saying it’s not some great gov’t conspiracy that only let’s certain terrorist in…
Really..I love Nogales, Mexico and have been there many times and have bought great deals at the flea market.
What really shocked me the first time there was the difference between the razor wire.. I feel so badly for our friends only a few feet away that live in such poverty..I’ll never forget my first time there shopping for a Douny burke purse for my wife ( is that the name?) A guy calls out from yards away seeing my pacer coat..’ Reggie Miller! Reggie Miller! I love hoosier basketball..Do you know Reggie? We talked for an hour about hoops..Guy was from South L.A. and was really cool.
I have no issues about our friends down south..I’m just saying you can’t build an augument saying the gov’t let 16 highjacker through security and that is the basis for a conspiracy theory.
I hope you understand..We agree more than disagree and i apologize for any misunderstanding..

Tater-Bob,
Yours is, without a doubt, the best retort to any of my entries yet (maybe even for all time!)! I really mean that Bobby boy–I can hardly type right now, I’m laughing so damned hard!

“..is comparable to a person who enters someone’s home as a guest and takes a steamin’ dump in the living room – and then demands dinner be served.”

Now THAT’S what I call a KEEN observation. What makes it so damned funny is that it is so damned true. I did indeed take a big ‘ol steamin’ dump of truth right here in the middle of your “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain” fantasy of “nothin’ to see here folks, move along” /”everything is just as it seems”/ “the earth is flat and the check-is-in-the-mail” milk and cookies fairytale bedtime story claque. You and the other microencephaletic charter members of the “we believe everything our dear leader tells us”/ “yes sir! may I have another!” club were in such dire need of a great big ‘ol steamin dump to draw your attention away from Big Brothers holy image on the tele-screen, just long enough to force your puny, atrophied quasi-cortex to spit-cough, snap-spark, dribble and regurgitate the best and only rhetoric you’ve been pre-programmed with to slime ANYTHING that might make sense, and thereby challenge the paradigm of authoritarian propaganda mirrors you call home.
Hope you didn’t step in it with your stockin’ feet.
Bobby, YOU have a gift, man. Keep that edge honed sharp.

P.S. I hadn’t planned to contribute to this thread again, but I just gotta give props where deserved.
Attaboy, Bobby!

“Maybe he looked like a deer in the headlights, because he didn’t know what you were talking about?”

That’s the first likelihood that occurred to me. He was all, huh?! Dude! WTF is she talking about?! (That was me impersonating a 16 year old suburban kid.)

“…a conspiracy theory, which Bush supporters will naturally point to as evidence of lunacy on the left…”

You know, one of the things that I find most unfortunate about these “9/11 was an inside job” enthusiasts is not only that it provides the Bushites ammunition, but that it all but silences discussion of the Bush regime’s undeniable criminal negligence in the matter.

While it is unlikely to the point of absurdity that the Bush regime actually perpetrated the atrocities of September 11, 2001, there is no doubt that they knew or should have known that the threat of exactly that kind of an attack existed and was imminent. Given that obvious reality, there are two possibilities. Either the Bush regime was criminally incompetent in that they ignored all the warnings from the intelligence services and others, or worse yet they intentionally allowed it to happen by applying what can only be called malign neglect. Whether it was sheer incompetence or malign intention, they are culpable, and should be held to account. Unfortunately, our conspiracy enthusiasts are among the factors holding back serious investigations.

Shirin, I am SURE the second one is true – they knew and let it happen. By the way, Bin Laden was a CIA asset, and in CIA there is not such thing as “a former asset”

But seriously, conspiracy enthusiasts cannot be blamed for the lack of serious investigations. Others do enough for it

Where did you see members of the Pentagon cancelled their flights on 9/11?

Newsweek reported it.

Bush: ‘We’re At War’
As the deadliest attack on American soil in history opens a scary new kind of conflict, the manhunt begins

By Evan Thomas and Mark Hosenball
NEWSWEEK

Sept. 24 issue

On Sept. 10, NEWSWEEK has learned, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns.

I want to know who they were. I’m waiting.
The CSPAN guest looked so foolish that I felt sorry for him. He shouldn’t have come on the show.

why some 9-11 hijackers were tracked in Malaysia and allowed to come to the US.

We allow thousands of illegal aliens in the country every day..nothing out of the ordinary for our high priced inept security.

Like these people? :O

About a dozen of bin Laden’s trusted followers hold a secret, “top-level al-Qaeda summit” in the city of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Plans for the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole

At the request of the CIA, the Malaysian Secret Service monitors the summit and then passes the information on to the US

Attendees of the summit are said to include:
Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar. The CIA and FBI will later miss many opportunities to foil the 9/11 plot through Alhazmi and Almihdhar and the knowledge of their presence at this summit. The CIA already knows many details about these two by the time the summit begins (see January 2-4, 2000), and tracked Almihdhar as he traveled to it (see January 2-5, 2000).

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM), a top al-Qaeda leader and the alleged “mastermind” of the 9/11 attacks. The US has known KSM is an Islamic militant since the exposure of Operation Bojinka in January 1995 (see January 6, 1995), and knows what he looks like.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=alate99hijackertraining

We hear that Bush and Cheney are inept too.
I’m not buying this inept security argument. Michael Springman sounded the alarm about Visa Express.

Springmann loudly complains to numerous government offices, but no action is taken. He is fired and his files on these applicants are destroyed. He later learns that recruits from many countries fighting for bin Laden against Russia in Afghanistan were funneled through the Jeddah office to get visas to come to the US

According to Springmann, the Jeddah consulate was run by the CIA and staffed almost entirely by intelligence agents. This visa system may have continued at least through 9/11, and 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers received their visas through Jeddah, possibly as part of this program (see October 9, 2002 and October 21, 2002) but there is any evidence.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=michael+springman&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on

So what happened next? Mission creep.

As the PNAC manifesto called for.

Unfortunately, our conspiracy enthusiasts are among the factors holding back serious investigations

We were the people who pushing for what little investigation we got.
Bill has posted a links to show that more and more people are asking the same questions that we were from the beginning.

You were not the only people who pushed for investigation. Many, many others did too, most of whom do not for a moment buy your “inside job” silliness. And it is a fact that by constantly harping and pushing your extreme, unlikely, and poorly supported notion, you are enabling those who want to silence any further serious debate on the Bush regime’s culpability.

And by the way, it is very tiresome and silly the way you people seem to keep insisting over and over and over on your binary view that either one accepts your unlikely conclusion that the Bush regime perpetrated the atrocities of 9/11, or one believes that what the Sept 11 Commission has presented is, as one of you keeps repeating, “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”.

Fascinatingly, you are guilty of the same type of faulty black and white, binary thinking that characterizes the Bush regime’s “with us or with the terrorists”, “for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, or for Saddam”, “good or evil and nothing in between” style of thinking. Just as it doesn’t occur to them that it is quite possible to be opposed to both the United States’ presence in Iraq, and Saddam (as close to 100% of Iraqis have been from the beginning), it does not occur to you that it is very possible to consider as rubbish both the Bush regime’s wide-eyed claims of complete non-culpability, and your overheated insistence that it was all a nefarious plan hatched by the Bushies. You are also guilty, as they are, of cherry picking, and often shaping, or even creating “facts” to fit your pre-conclusions and ignoring anything that seriously challenges them.

It is entirely possible to reject all or some of the 9/11 Commission’s conclusions while also rejecting your desperate attempts to push your ill-supported, overly convoluted, unlikely-to-the-point-of-absurdity conspiracy theories.

I missed Bill Maher last night…

By Associated Press
Live TV provided some unexpected excitement on HBO last night.

Viewers of “Real Time with Bill Maher” saw the host take on the role of not only comedian and political commentator but also security guard.

Maher helped remove a rowdy protester from the audience.

It happened during a panel discussion on science when an audience member with a sign stood up and started shouting something to the effect of “9/11 is a cover up for fraud.” When Maher tried to shout him down, the man became agitated. And when guards couldn’t budge him, Maher ran into the audience and personally helped shove the protester out the door.

Several other protesters popped up, too. At which point the host joked, “This isn’t the Iowa Caucus.” “We’re not here to debate.”

The rest of the audience cheered as Maher added, “This is the problem with live television.”

http://www.wcbd.com/midatlantic/cbd/news.apx.-content-articles-CBD-2007-10-20-0007.html

http://youtube.com/watch?v=08bE7L5yHrM

I KNOW that I’ve been lied to.

When W gave a press conference to say that we shouldn’t be listening to conpriacy theories he was saying “DON’T ASK ANY QUESTIONS”

They conspired. They count on people to look elsewhere, not ask questions or fear being ridiculed, or worse.

They’ll continue to do the same thing because people will behave the same way.

inside job” silliness

Move along. LOL!!

And when guards couldn’t budge him

LOL! You are kidding me? Doesn’t that tell you something? We’ve seen a student tasered, a reverend forced to the floor as he waited to see Petraus and these guards couldn’t remove a 9-11 protestor? C’mon.

Consider, Cee, the end result of CBS’ Sixty Minutes’ investigation into the activities– and lack of them– of Dubya in the Texas Air National Guard.

It’s not too hard to make the case that Dubya was a lazy bugger who blew off a physical exam and was grounded, and then blew off his remaining months of service obligations altogether because he’d gotten bored with playing at being a jet jockey– Tooter Turtle or Jethro Bodine, you decide– but Rather & Co couldn’t resist an especially incriminating piece of evidence to buttress their case, provided by a especially zealous Bush detractor, despite the fact that it was a clumsy and obvious forgery.

You may recall that the White House, who was given an opportunity to rebut the content and the veracity of the docs, kept silent, and as we now know, must have rubbed their hands with glee in anticipation of their release.

Forgery revealed, all anyone now remembers of the TANG career of George W Bush is that CBS tried to smear him with a ridiculously false set of memos purported to be the work of his superiors in the TANG.

Similarly, the case that President DisasterMonkey was woefully unprepared for the events of 9/11, perhaps even criminally negligent in this regard, is being obscured by the loud and discordant background noise of these 9/11 conspiracy theories.

Serve the truth, and truth is well served. Serve unfounded speculation, and the truth is well fucked.

CV says

Forgery revealed, all anyone now remembers of the TANG career of George W Bush is that CBS tried to smear him with a ridiculously false set of memos purported to be the work of his superiors in the TANG.

And despite the fact that he was never seen in AL on base by anyone in his unit. Trudeau’s offer of a 10k reward for anyone who could prove that they served with Bush in AL was never claimed.
And 2nd Lt. Bush received a commission w/o attending OTC, OTS or ROTC. A former USAF intel officer said that as far as he recalled, that was reserved only for doctors – to qualify them as flight surgeons. Which to me was more of a story. But I don’t think most folks were interested in that.
Good analogy, CV
Not to mention it caused the real story - as you know, (which was to air the following week, still prior to the ’04 election) about the crudely forged Niger documents – to be canned. It also gave the freepers, redstaters, Malkin, Drudge and the rest of the rightwing whack job blogs credence. After all, they took down CBS, proved bias and underhandedness in the the liberal media conclusively. And all in one stroke. MSM still kowtows to those creeps.

I’m crushed. Then again being a rank amateur, you missed your cue again…I mean if you’re gonna be a clown, you really gotta get the timing thing down, OK?
When I say toilet paper, that’s when you come rolling out.

Was that you on Bill Maher’s show last night?

that’s funny Taters.. I saw that on maher’s show..
Have you been playing anywhere lately?
Kind regards
Hoopster
PS my kids bought me a 60′s Strat for my birthday..I have 7 guitars now and i think..they think if they just keep buying me guitars i’ll learn how to play like Frank Zappa.
maybe they should start buying me ties..

“the case that President DisasterMonkey was woefully unprepared for the events of 9/11, perhaps even criminally negligent in this regard, is being obscured by the loud and discordant background noise of these 9/11 conspiracy theories.”

Just what I was trying to say, only you said it so much more succinctly.

Hey ya Hoopster,
We were in Las Vegas last week. I’ve got some upcoming stuff here in Detroit – and some dates w/Etta in Dec. in CA.
A 60′s Strat for your b-day? You dog, you.
Man, your kids love you.
So Jordan’s kid is walk on at Illinois. I’m assuming you heard about that.
Feeling pretty good about the Hoosiers this year?
BTW – That’s really cool about your non profit.
I tip my hat, sir.

Shirin,

You are of course are entitled to your opinions as to the events of 9/11.

But you have really stepped over the line with your sarcastic, condescending post above.

When Rob posted his original remarks he for sure, was very undiplomatic which to which I also I agreed. However most of you, instead at least saying “Rob, you’re an undiplomatic asshole, but just for the sake of discussion I will check what you have to say.”

But instead of checking out anything he had to say and by now probably me Cee or anybody else, all of you started in on him with both barrels and what little discussion ensued, quickly turned into a name calling shouting match.

So soon it became evident all of you were no more interested in checking his opinions then you are mine, CEE’s or others.

So now comes the great and all powerful and all knowing Shirin.

Being bored with all this conspiracy discussion, she has decided, not only are our opinions not worth her valuable time, but that we also need to be publicly trashed, chastised, ridiculed, called names, like silly and tiresome and scolded like little children and maybe hung. Except even the great and all powerful and all knowing Shirin wouldn’t hang children?

So, Shirin, the fact check queen, have you gone to any of the web sites that I suggested?

Of course not, anything that we or these nut-cakes say, would be waaaay beneath your vast knowledge of the entire world, no I take that back, the entire universe and of course, your strongest point, the entire history of man since the beginning of time.

OH BTW, thanks also for the compliment of comparing our “cherry picking” to that of the Bush Administration. At least we do something right in your eyes.

Now for the real fun…fact checking Shirin..

Quote Shirin…

“And it is a fact that by constantly harping and pushing your extreme, unlikely, and poorly supported notion, you are enabling those who want to silence any further serious debate on the Bush regime’s culpability.”

Really??

And where did you pull this fact, your above quote, out of, Madame Fact Check Queen? Can we please have the basis of your I’m-sure-thorough-investigative-conclusions?

Quote Shirin…

“Fascinatingly, you are guilty of the same type of faulty black and white, binary thinking that characterizes………”

Really?? We are guilty? In whose opinion….the court of Shirin?

Quote Shirin..

“It is entirely possible to reject all or some of the 9/11 Commission’s conclusions while also rejecting your desperate attempts to push your ill-supported, overly convoluted, unlikely-to-the-point-of-absurdity conspiracy theories.”

This is probably the most illogical statement I think I have ever read.

Let me get this straight. If “all or some of what the commission said can be rejected”, and all of ….”your/our ill-supported, overly convoluted, unlikely-to-the-point-of-absurdity conspiracy theories”, as well, then who knows the truth???

(Hits self in head) (Light bulb goes on).

Why the the great and all powerful and all knowing Shirin, of course!

On a personal note, Shirin I have tried to be a friend to you both here and off blog, but as the old saying goes, “when one has friends like you who needs enemies”.

I’m not sure what your problem is, but I finally figured out that not only think you know it all, you really aren’t interested in hearing anyone else’s opinion unless it agrees with your own.

Just for clarification purposes….

This post by me…

Comment by Bill Keyes | 2007-10-21 01:28:39…..

is in response to this quote by Shirin…

Comment by Shirin | 2007-10-20 12:53:08

Bill,

1. I am sorry you read sarcasm and condescension in my remarks. I assure you that while I am quite capable of using sarcasm, none was intended in this case. I also intended no condescension. I was merely expressing my sincere and considered view about the “inside job” conspiracy theories.

2. How very interesting that you assume I have not looked into the body of “evidence” presented by the “inside job” enthusiasts and found it wanting. Do you really believe that this was the first time anyone has posted those links? Must we take the time to look at them again and again every time someone brings them up?

3. As far as I know, all I have done here is present a few reasoned arguments and did not engage in any shouting matches or name-calling. Therefore, kindly address your complaints about name calling and shouting matches to those to whom they apply.

4. I have heard the arguments and over and over again, and checked the evidence. In fact, I have a colleague at work who talks about it constantly. I do not find the arguments or the evidence convincing, and I find the constant harping on this subject to be counterproductive. That is my opinion, and I expressed it.

And how unfortunate that you have chosen to react to my expression of opinion, and my reasoned arguments by getting so personal.

The bottom line on this issue is that it is not a question of either accepting the official story, or believing that the Bush regime planned and executed the events of September 11. It is entirely possible to disbelieve both the official story AND the “inside job” conspiracy theory, and I believe that is where most of us here are on this question.

I believe that the Bush regime knew or should have known that there was an imminent threat of attack from bin Ladin’s group. I believe that at best they were criminally negligent in a number of ways. I believe that at worst they are guilty of allowing it to happen by the application of malign neglect. Either way a cover-up would be the expected reaction.

Cee, the fact that you have been lied to about an act does not constitute evidence that the liar planned and committed the act.

Shirin

I believe we are beating a dead horse.

Let’s leave it at this.

I believe there was major criminal activity involved in what happened on 9/11 either through benign neglect, or complicity by the Bush Administraion.

I believe the 9/11 Commission Report was a sham that did not answer satisfactorily what really happened on 9/11 and whose sole purpose was to serve the Bush Administration’s need to cover up the criminal activity I mentioned above.

I believe that the “deepening mess in the world” (one of your earlier quotes) was caused by the events that happened on 9/11 will continue to get worse.

I believe getting worse means regardless of who wins the WH in 2008, the US will still be in IRAQ for many years to come, many more Iraqi’s and US soldiers will die, profits from the Iraqi oil will line the pockets of Big Oil, we will attack Iran, and our empire building train will roar down the tracks until it someday runs off a cliff.

(BTW, I will have long since gotten off that train and moved some where else in the world.)

I believe on the domestic front all the assaults on the constitution will either stay the same or get worse in the holy name of “national security” leading to more arrests and incarceration for those of us resisting these assaults. The growing economic turndown will get worse and turn into a real depression that will make the 1930′s look like a church picnic.

On a personal note while you feel you were not condescending to me, I still feel you were, and while I respect your opinion and your knowledge (no sarcasm I do not believe it would be productive for us to get in any kind of discussion on any subject.

Lastly please accept my apologies for getting personal.

“I believe there was major criminal activity involved in what happened on 9/11 either through benign neglect, or complicity by the Bush Administraion.”

What I believe is that there was major criminal INactivity. The Bush regime are guilty of failing to take any action whatsoever to prevent the attacks despite the fact that they had intelligence that should have prompted them to take the matter very seriously. Either they are guilty of criminal incompetence in failing to take the matter seriously, or, far worse, they intentionally turned a blind eye – what I call “malign neglect”. Either way they bear considerable culpability.

“while you feel you were not condescending to me, I still feel you were”

Bill, I was not even addressing you. I was not addressing anyone, in fact.

“Lastly please accept my apologies for getting personal.”

Accepted.

test

what is more pathetic is this idiot thinks someone is my ‘leader’ which assumes he believes in having a ‘leader’…he says as a follower.

Its amazing to me still how stupid our smart species can be and then funnier still that they can throw their projected character on you and convince themselves it fits.

Well Mabe, I’ve got no leader. I’m an anarchist who could care less about authority and about “leaders”. I don’t have to have a “leader” to determine that you are simply a gadfly punkass who hasn’t a lick of sense about ya.

Whats funny is you think YOU’VE broken out of the confines of the “authoritarian propaganda mirrors” and yet thats all you talked about.

Be free, and get back on ya meds, you’ve got such potential.