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In Praise of Agnostics and Atheists

I have much to say against organized religion, especially when it breeds people like Rick Warren (of Saddleback Church) or other such mega-church religious people here in the US who teach homophobia, or Imams in madrasas or elsewhere inciting violence in young people in the name of religion, or some Hindu fundamentalists wearing orange robes who are in fact nothing more than politicians and crooks vying for their own power over communities. In view of such negative forces, my inclination is to just put aside religion for a moment in all our daily activities and see the world for what it is from a secular humanist point of view. It is easy for me to do that, because I am a self-declared atheist from my early high school days, the age where I started my independent thinking and one relative famously labeled me as a non-conformist and I wore it as a badge of honor.

I come from a land of spiritualism and superstitions, of belief in a supreme unnamed being to 100s of big and small, male and female deities worshiped in every street corner, the purported high and the low; while I can be dismissive of the low, I am also reluctant to acknowledge the high. The word spiritualism as defined by people like Deepak Chopras or Eckhart Tolles of the world annoys me. Anybody who really gets the meaning of that word, will perhaps lead a quiet life without trying to make a cottage industry out of it; they will at least not have the ego to delude themselves into thinking that only they can help others — they will certainly not go on Oprah’s show.

If you sensed my irreverence, you will see that I am not that removed from India’s heritage of religious dissension which has been alive and well from first millennium BC. The group of early dissenters from India’s past were called Lokayata or C[h]arvakas and unfortunately much of their writing has been lost and whatever evidence is there of their existence comes from other philosophers’ works trying to refute their way of life. These Indian atheists had a long presence in its rich history even until as recently as the late sixteenth century when Akbar’s chronicler, Abul Fazl recorded their active participation in Akbar’s multi-religious conferences. Some well known thoughts and ideas attributable to their writings are cited by the Nobel prize winning economist, Amartya Sen in his book The Argumentative Indian. Quoting Sen:

In addition to the denial of God, there is also a rejection of soul, and an assertion of the material basis of the mind: ‘ [from these material elements] alone, when transformed into the body, intelligence is produced, just as the inebriating power is developed from the mixing of certain ingredients; and when these are destroyed, intelligence at once perishes also.’ Along with these radical beliefs about the nature of life and mind, there is also a philosophy of value, which concentrates on identifiable pleasure, not any ‘happiness in a future world’. There is recurrent advice on how to live: `While life is yours, live joyously!’ There is also an acrid and cynical explanation of the cultivated survival of religious illusions among people: `There is no heaven, no final liberation, nor any soul in another world… it is only as a means of livelihood that Brahmins have established here all the ceremonies for the dead — there is no other fruit anywhere.’

That last line is quite a dig at the caste system and the Brahmins. Seems to me that these ancient atheists were a vocal non-conforming group motivated by truth and honesty criticizing the orthodoxies of the day. Their fearlessness in accepting the world as is without superficial religious constructs, is also commendable. Godlessness of such groups however, will actually scare some religious people for whom godliness and morality go together. But do they have to, God and morality?

The connection between religion and morality is at best tenuous. For a contemporary treatment on morality without religion, read Hauser and Singer in an Op-Ed written for Free Inquiry (Dec 2005/Jan 2006, Vol. 26, No 1), a publication from the Council for Secular Humanism:

How do we know that believers and atheists approach moral problems in similar ways? Consider the following three scenarios. For each, fill in the blank with morally “obligatory,” “permissible,” or “forbidden.” 1. A runaway trolley is about to run over five people walking on the tracks. A railroad worker is standing next to a switch that can turn the trolley onto a side track, killing one person, but allowing the five to survive. Flipping the switch is ______. 2. You pass by a small child drowning in a shallow pond, and you are the only one around. If you pick up the child, she will survive and your pants will be ruined. Picking up the child is _______. 3. Five people have just been rushed into a hospital in critical care, each requiring an organ to survive. There is not enough time to request organs from outside the hospital. There is, however, a healthy person in the hospital’s waiting room. If the surgeon takes this person’s organs, he will die, but the five in critical care will survive. Taking the healthy person’s organs is _______.

If you judged case 1 as permissible, case 2 as obligatory, and case 3 as forbidden, then you are like the 1,500 subjects around the world who responded to these dilemmas on our Web-based “moral-sense test” (http://moral.wjh. harvard.edu). On the view that morality is God’s word, atheists should judge these cases differently from people with religious background and beliefs, and when asked to justify their responses, should bring forward different explanations. For example, since atheists lack a moral compass, they should go with pure self-interest and walk by the drowning baby. Results show something completely different. There were no statistically significant differences between subjects with or without religious backgrounds, with approximately 90 percent of subjects saying that it is permissible to flip the switch on the boxcar, 97 percent saying that it is obligatory to rescue the baby, and 97 percent saying that it is forbidden to remove the healthy man’s organs. When asked to justify why some cases are permissible and others forbidden, subjects are either clueless or offer explanations that cannot account for the differences in play. Importantly, those with a religious background are as clueless or incoherent as atheists. These studies begin to provide empirical support for the idea that, like other psychological faculties of the mind, including language an mathematics, we are endowed with a moral faculty that guides our intuitive judgments of right and wrong, interacting in interesting ways with the local culture. These intuitions reflect the outcome of millions of years in which our ancestors have lived as social mammals and are part of our common inheritance, as much as our opposable thumbs are. These facts are incompatible with the story of divine creation.

Read the rest of that article for a fascinating discussion on religion and morality.

So many of today’s problems around the world seem to emanate from highly dogmatic religious fervor of all kinds. It is perhaps better to put aside one’s religiosity and enter the world with just the humanity that our long and enduring civilizations have taught us. Bertrand Russell in his essay Why I am not a Christian speaks for me when he says:

We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world — its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the world by intelligence and not merely by being slavishly subdued by the terror that comes from it. The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.

  • workingclass artist

    Hmmmm…Is this an article intent on persuasion?

    • pm317

      No, just my 2 cents and a bit of historical perspective on alternative views.

      • Tricia Spiegel

        Even though I am a Christian (but don’t like church–I like Jesus because he was a great model of social activism and also a feeling of support whenever I need it) I really enjoy reading other folk’s point of view on the subject of religion.

        This was very a interesting post, and certainly NOT a persuasion piece. I disgree with Workingclassartist even if only posed as a question.

  • jwrjr

    Remember – religion gave us the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Salem Witch Trials.

    • CE415

      Religion (conservative christians) also gave us the Ken Starr witch hunts of the 1990′s.
      And religion gave us the attack on 9/11 and on and on and on…

      • BernieO

        It also gave us Martin Luther King.

        I am a confirmed agnostic. If you try to get at what lies behind the universe you either have to accept that at some point something came from nothing or that the universe has always existed in some form. Either way, it is hard for humans to wrap their minds around it.

        That being said, I do not think all organized religion is bad. Nor do I have a problem with people publicly talking about spirituality. A lot of people I know, particularly younger people, really feel the need to belong to a spiritual community but are uncomfortable with traditional religions. Most of them don’t even realize that there are alternatives available – like the Unitarian Universalists who emphasize humanistic principles and a search for truth, rather than proclaiming they have the truth.
        http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml

        As for atheists/agnostics having a moral sense, I believe that any truly rational person realizes that is it actually is in their self interest to live morally and work for a world grounded in moral principles. Unless society is organized around principles of justice, respect for individual dignity, etc. everyone is at risk. Look at all the examples of societies that were torn apart by not instituting humane systems. The Russian Revolution was a disaster for all classes as was the French Revolution. It is true that humans seem to have an innate sense of morality, but that is not enough to ensure truly moral behavior. Often people’s natural sense of morality and empathy only extends to their own group and outsiders are seen as less than human, leading to all kinds of immoral acts. So a rational grounding in addition to a natural sense of morality is also important if humans are to be truly moral.

    • workingclass artist

      Hmmmm….jwrjr…To “paraphrase” the essayist…Stop living in the past…chuckle…

      • jwrjr

        I am simply commenting on the absurdity of the proposition that all good comes from religion and all bad comes from non-religion. A person who does bad things “in the name of God” is still bad, and a good non-religious person is still good.

    • Pennsylvania Red

      Religion also gave us Catholic Charities, Mother Teresa, Katherine Drexel, and St. Francis of Assisi.

      • workingclass artist

        and our present system of colleges and universities in the WEST…of which pm317 surely benefitted from…chuckle…

        • bart

          Hey WCA, do you only take potshots or do you have something useful to add?

        • Ellen D

          Don’t understand the colleges in the West allusion – could someone enlighten me?

    • truthtelling007

      Can you name anything good religion? You either don’t know any or have chosen to ignore them. There are many examples of improvements in society and way of living that involved religious centers. And like all things those good things gave way to bad, then back to good.

      My problem with both religious folks and non-religious folks is having them talk as if religion were a monolithic entity. Your comments portray religion with one brush, all bad. It also failed to show non-religious powers that did the same things.

      Do you mention the role of religion on sustaining the oppressed during foreign occupation, individual incarceration while innocent, and many examples where a person turned to their religious convictions and did the right thing?

      I used to be pretty solid against religion, preferring to display my spiritual and intellectual arrogance. I still do have strong criticisms of most religious activity that is mindless, unfounded in any real doctrine outside modern evangelical hubbub. Many Christians around me love to debate the bible and often have to go back and read it again because I’m not one of their Sunday school types. I haven’t accepted it as “gods word”. Keeps me on my toes.

      Further many vocal Christians, and almost all televangelists are completely off when it comes to their understanding and honesty about Christ’s teachings, the Jewish roots they come from, and the role of their spiritual texts in their religion. They have fogged their won eyes. But let us not assume all are that way, because I know that isn’t true.

      But the people who often irritate me more are the religious atheists who must insert NoGod in very portion of life not unlike their YesGod counterparts. And my problem with it was mostly on an intellectual honesty trip which focused on the fact that for an atheist to exist, the theist must first exist and be correct in their descriptors and then the atheist is still only contesting the notion that the theist has. This sort of dependent relationship misses that many theists haven’t the first clue how to discuss their beliefs outside of the construct of their church upbringing and many atheists can’t argue outside the JudeoChristian god concepts. Arguing in this manner is rather silly.

      Additionally comments about “religion gave us the Spanish Inquisition” forget anything about the non-Catholic traditions that were not part of the Spanish Inquisition…in fact they were the ones being persecuted. Did religion bring victimhood then too?

      Regarding the author’s post:
      Your post is very anecdotal but I can appreciate your cynicism. But you also make some gross generalizations that make your comment seem more pedestrian than “independent” in thought. Dig into the subject some more. You gave examples that support your view, but there are equal examples that counter your view of religion as what the extremists make it.

      The problem with your theory is that ignores what Mao did, without a God, and what Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot and others did without Gods. The non-religious government paradigm is a fairly new phenomena. And in the last century we have seen that non-religious countries can commit as many atrocities as their religious counterparts.

      You made reference to India’s religious history in such a manner that you sorta gloss it over as the same or a monolith. Nor are the ways in which people experience religion in India the same.

      One such example is King Asoka who is held in great esteem in Indian history. He was a normal king who was taught buddhism. He was inspired by the teaching that said he’d be a better king if he’d be a servant first. After years of the same old sort of military conquest crap most Kings do, Asoka was changed by what he learned. Hey it was 265 BC or 263 BC.

      I’m not here to sell you Buddhism, Christianity or any other religion. (let me hook you up with some Sufi texts like Kabir who questioned the validity of religious practices in his 12th century). But I will challenge that religion is bad. I don’t find that to be intellectually honest in the least.

      You copied the following from an article:
      “There is no heaven, no final liberation, nor any soul in another world”

      Great, lets see if this is true.
      1st. No Heaven – What is Heaven?
      Is it God sitting on a throne with St. Peter at the gate? if so, yes, I doubt that this “heaven” would even make sense.
      But what if heaven is actually having a planet that sustains a human body at 98.6, has just the right mix of water, nitrogen/oxygen, carbon and the other bits that are perfect for us to simply exist. Now, that doesn’t mean we can’t ruin this “heaven” we already have.

      But all I’m illustrating is that not every religion teaches that there is a “heaven” and those that do have many ways that “heaven” exists. To say that there is “no heaven” it would be best to shoot down the examples you mean. Because frankly, to tell me that this planet isn’t already heaven would mean we’ll be locked in a silly semantic battle where you negate how I describe my personal paradise.

      2nd: no final liberation
      What is this liberation?
      This is and has been a fundamental question that I had to grapple with when studying Buddhism 20 years ago. What in the world would “liberation” be? Would I float off the into the air? Would my shit stink?

      To say there is no final liberation is rather ignorant on the part of the author of these words. Liberation can happen right now if I simply let go of anything that binds me. If I feel my body or living binds me, I can end that too. Most bonds are mental and self-imposed. It is that easy. I’d recommend that we tell George Bush there is No Liberation, in the manner he means.

      and 3rd:
      “nor any soul in another world”
      again, this is why I’m commenting at all. This and the other concepts from the author are ignoring religions that don’t teach about “soul in another world” or some such concept. There is no monolith teaching on “soul”.

      Regarding morality and religion:
      I know some very moralistic atheists. They are preachier than my church going friends. I never know the policies well enough. They have this sort of attitude that reminds me of the bible verse trackers who had to know I could tell you that Timothy I: 2, 8-15 described woman’s place in church. Now it is done in a political noGod way.

      Morals need not be exclusive to the church. Many in the church or religions are hypocrites. They don’t understand the moral underpinnings of their religion in the slightest no matter how they quote the passages.

      And at the same time, some of my most giving, kind, socially adjustable friends are at least agnostic.

      In conclusion:
      I do applaud you speaking for your own view. I would just like to finally have an honest conversation with “atheists” that isn’t more of the same old type of very religious repeats that I hear from the theists. Worshiping our own intellectual power to conceive of noGod seems about as useless as those who wait for Jesus to fix their car.

      I’m probably more properly called an Agnostic because I know what the word means, to be without knowledge. This universe is huge. The physical reality around is is not what our eyes, skin, taste, smell and such say it is. We’ve proven that we can’t see much of the spectrum of light, can’t hear much of the spectrum of sound..and yet…we know there is No God, or that God has a plan..etc.
      Screw that.

      “the age where I started my independent thinking”
      Independent thinking is great. But let us not ignore the “independent thinkers” in religious history as if this is the sole domain of the atheist. That is simply arrogance.

      I’m not advocating FOR religion, only for fair witness on the subject. And as person who has been formally schooled in Buddhism…I’m not someone who “believes” in much. I believe my cats love me…I think thats about it. I know Dick Cheney is a guilty war criminal and Barack Obama is a stuffed shirt politician. I know it is in our best interest to hold them all accountable…etc etc..know..vs …believe.

      Question all beliefs
      Happy New Year NQ

      • pm317

        You copied the following from an article:
        “There is no heaven, no final liberation, nor any soul in another world”

        I will just address this one thing in your comment:
        That line in double quotes is attributed to the atheist group Lokayata from around 1st millennium BC (which I say in the post, but you probably missed it). The source for it is the book I cite in the post. This is what the group believed in, all to be taken against the context of Hindu religion/philosophy at that time. You may have to read up on Hindu religion to understand what they are saying about liberation, soul and such.

  • Rah-Rah

    I am atheist and I have always found it interesting that some people take immediate offense that they are being *persuaded* to believe something they do not embrace when any mention of atheism is brought up. I don’t have that reaction when others I know talk about their belief IN god; I am not challenged by the notion. Just an observation…but it is a reaction that comes out A LOT in believers.

    To me, it’s not even a debate. You can believe in the completely unknown, unproven, and un-demonstrated and blindly call it faith, or you can live your life realistically and on actual terms. My life is full of love, curiosity and passionate because I realize it is only for the here and now… Do I WISH it were different? Hell, yes. Who wouldn’t want eternal life and all the rest of it. But I can’t ignore reality in this MOST important part of my life.

    People from Abraham Lincoln to Einstein to Lance Armstrong are/were atheists.

    It’s not such a big deal, people.

    • Judy L. NC

      unknown, unproven, and un-demonstrated and blindly call it faith, or you can live your life realistically

      Statements like this are what put “people of faith” on the defensive.

      • workingclass artist

        lol…You Go Girl!
        ehemmm..Judy L NC….I suppose a religionist could inject equally polarizing rhetoric by mentioning the sophomoric need for proof…Aaaaand the repeated mention of religious crimes…lol…Not to mention that technically atheism is a philosophical oxymoron and leads to a narcissistic vacuum and a singular and proud reliance on the SELF…the promotion of the SELF…the justification of the SELF…The here and now of the SELF…The worship of the SELF…bla bla bla…ad nausem…sheeesh!
        Why is it so many SELF proclaimed atheists come off as a bit humorless and petulant?….

        • http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

          I don’t understand why you two are reacting so negatively to the comment of blind faith?

          God and Christianity is the only religion based totally on blind faith. 100% blind faith that God exists, and that Jesus is the son of God, no?

          No one can prove God exists, so if you choose to believe in God, it is on blind faith.

          Many others, who do not believe in God, believe in science – which, is not 100% accurate, but is not 100% blind faith.

          If people choose to believe, that is there *god given right*. but if people choose not to believe, that is their right too, no?

          The comment *realistically* is not insulting, is it?

          People who believe in the bible believe in talking snakes, people turning to salt, seas parting, arcs filled with every animal in existence, virgin births, rising dead, etc.

          Many people simply can not wrap their heads around that kind of blind faith.

          If you read Greek mythology, there are many simimlar themes that run through, but I don’t see people still believing in flying chariots of fire, and Kings in the Sea.

          • Judy L. NC

            sarainitaly, you’re as condescending as Rah-Rah. This is nothing but a pissing contest. Three “un” words were used to describe “religionists”, while atheists are “realistic”. Indeed, I could hear violins in the background “. . .my life is full of love, curiosity and passionate. . .” barf

            • http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

              well, i wan’t trying to be condescending, but have a debate. pissing contests are not my thing.

              realism vs. faith…? isn’t that what the difference is between creationism and evolution? science vs. the bible?

              Do these terms not hold true wrt God: unknown, unproven, and un-demonstrated ???

              If not, please point me to the evidence.

            • http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

              Indeed, I could hear violins in the background “. . .my life is full of love, curiosity and passionate. . .” barf

              What is wrong with someone who chooses not to believe in God, but lives a life full of love, curiosity and passion? Why so defensive? Isn’t the (or one of the) goals of religion to convince/allow/provide/hope? people live a life full of love, curiosity and passion and of course kindness…

              Some people might not feel they need or want religion in their lives, in order to live a compassionate life… why does that make you want to barf?

              • Judy L. NC

                One more time. I AM for self-actualization in any way and I respect your right to believe as you wish. However, IMHO, religion and atheism are not topics for debate. Either you have faith or you don’t. Brilliant talking points won’t convince anybody one way or the other. Rah-Rah used negative words to describe people of faith while describing him-herself as full of love, etc. Yeah, that makes me want to barf.

                If I’ve learned nothing from this election cycle, I have learned the code of spin.

              • Judy L. NC

                One more time. I AM for self-actualization in any way and I respect your right to believe as you wish. However, IMHO, religion and atheism are not topics for debate. Either you have faith or you don’t. Brilliant talking points won’t convince anybody one way or the other. Rah-Rah used negative words to describe people of faith while describing him-herself as full of love, etc. Yeah, that makes me want to barf.

                If I’ve learned nothing from this election cycle, I have learned the code words of spin.

              • elise

                But, it isn’t a matter of belief of science vs belief in a deity, AGII. Developments in quantum mechanics have raise questions regarding the existence of free will and not even Einstein himself claimed to be an atheist.

                The problem is a lack of logic in defending the position.

                No one can prove God exists, so if you choose to believe in God, it is on blind faith.

                This is certainly true and if one does not believe, there is no need to defend the position. However, if one states categorically God doesn’t exist, then shouldn’t they be required to prove the negative. Otherwise, why the need to deny the existence because it would have no importance?

                The absence of belief or faith shouldn’t need defense and to propose an apology or defense based on morality is a contradiction since the concept relies on a “good conscience” which requires free will. Christians, Jews, Muslims and many other religions rely on faith for belief, therefore no proof is required (they admit there is no empirical data to support their belief).

                An atheist, on the other hand, rejects faith so they must provide some proof or the argument is specious.

                • http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

                  speaking only for me, i am a non-believer. can i prove God does not exist? No. But, I don’t need to, I don’t believe. If someone wants to believe, more power to them. Can they prove to me he exists? They can try, but short of seeing him for myself, I am probably not going to believe it. (and a Jesus shaped potato chip doesn’t count haha)

                  There are many unexplainable things. Some people figure it has to be a higher power. Others think it is some weird science. Some people think God spared *them* from a terrible disaster, that killed thousands of others. (I just don’t get that – it seems so arrogant to me!) Others think they can pray to God, and be cured of their illness, but yet, look at the babies in Africa, starving to death…but they think God cured *them*. I just don’t get that either.

                  I don’t believe in ghosts, either. And the big bang theory is hard to get myhead around as well. haha Or the idea that we are the only planet with humans.

                  I think the sign that was posted in WA, that God doesn’t exist, and there are no angels, etc, was wrong. It wasn’t a positive promotion of their views, it was putting down another religion. If people want to wrap themselves in faith, that is their right (my husband happens to be a pretty big believer) It just isn’t for me.

                  I guess I tend to see more of the bad sides or organized religion then the good. I think people should pray or whatever they want, in private, and have their own private *faith*. If people want to get together on Sundays, and sing and share and be together, fine. But, killings and bigotry and hypocrisy in the name of religion is just not anything i want anything to do with. And love the Pope, but things like telling people that condoms are a sin is just wrong. People are dying.

                  There are good people, religious or not and there are terrible people, religious or not. Some people believe in kharma, some in God, some in reincarnation, others nothing. You will find good and evil in all those people.

                  I don’t think anyone needs to prove God doesn’t exist. They just don’t have to believe. (and full disclosure, I am not sure I understood all of this post either… :OS)

                  But, I do think that people need to quit warring over religion, and try to be human and kind.

                  • oowawa

                    But, I do think that people need to quit warring over religion, and try to be human and kind.

                    Well Sara, that summary sure works for me.

                  • elise

                    sara, I am trying to use nothing but logic in my argument. Religion as cause and effect of the “good or bad” in our world is another discussion. You don’t believe and I’m not faulting you in any way or requiring proof of the absence of a deity.

                    Those who believe, do not offer any proof because their belief is based on faith and their faith doesn’t require them to provide any physical data. I’m not claiming their belief carries more weight than a non-believer.

                    The problem I am having with this post is the author’s reliance on the religion of others to prove a negative instead of offering a different kind of argument. It isn’t an issue of whether or not a specific religion has resulted in justification of war or intolerance or any of the maladies of societies. And, I am not defending Christianity, Islam or Judaism.

                    Philosophical debate requires unemotional argument which follows some type of logic. pm317 is preaching. He begins with the promise there is no God. His argument is; religions are bad and harm society so atheism (denial of the existence of God) is better for society.

                    I’m sorry, but I don’t see the logic because it’s apples and oranges.

          • Tuppence411

            Sara, its hard not to take offense when your point of reference for all Christians seems to be a cartoon caricature of an evangelical.

            • http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

              my point of reference for Christians is a cartoon charicature? how so?

              • http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

                i figure people either believe in the bible, or they don’t. this is one of the issues i have wrt the marriage debate, and about gays. it seems that some people of faith (some, not all) like to pick and choose which parts are relevant, and which parts are not. some people choose not to believe in the talking snake, but hold steadfast to other parts, like that gays are sinful, or whatever.

                is the bible the word of God or stories told, and passed down? i think you either have faith or you don’t. but, who is anyone to pick and choose which parts are now legit, and which aren’t? do you believe and accept it, or not? if you do, then aren’t there talking snakes, and parting seas, and virgin births, etc?

                it is kind of like the law, maybe? you can ignore certain parts of the law, but the law is still the law. so, you either believe in and follow the law, or you don’t. but if you believe in the law, but just choose to follow some of the laws, aren’t you still breaking the law?

                so, if people of faith believe in the bible, and that it is the word of God, but choose to only follow certain parts, are they in turn, ignoring some of the bibles beliefs?

                ok, i am dizzy now.

              • Tuppence411

                While evangelicalism is growing rapidly in this country, the majority of Christian Americans are Catholic or mainline Protestant. Worldwide, the precentage dwindles. Evangelicalism is a North American movement, though gaining in popularity in other English speaking countries. Not all Christian denominations hold the same beliefs as some Evangelical sects. The majority of denominations do not believe in a literal word for word interpretation of the Bible, can reconcile God being the Author of the Universe with the theory of evolution, and can discern when reading or hearing allegory. I am a life-long Christian and neither my religion nor my spirituality requires me to believe dinosaurs roamed the earth 5000 years ago, 7 days literally means 168 hours, and if I trek off to Mesopotamia I will find an apple core.

                I am honestly not bashing Warren or any of the mega churches and newer denominations. Evangelicalism is only about 100 years old. In religion where time is measured by millinieum, they are in their infancy. I cringe when they are portrayed as fanatical carictures. I double cringe when all Christians are portrayed that way.

          • lorac

            Sarah in Italy “If you read Greek mythology, there are many simimlar themes that run through, but I don’t see people still believing in flying chariots of fire, and Kings in the Sea.”

            Just look at how we always term it – a “mythology”. That says it all to me. I doubt they considered it a mythology at the time – they considered it their religion. What is the difference between current beliefs and the old Greek beliefs – only that one is no longer practiced and has no current supporters – so it has been relegated to “mythology” status.

            I think labeling it “mythology” was religion’s way of distancing itself from something which so clearly seemed “out there”, so that their current “out there” claims wouldn’t be equated with it. IMO.

            • WildChild

              All i know is that in pagan Rome gods would come down to earth and bed human women who would then bear children with special, almost superhuman powers. Boy I’m sure glad we don’t subscribe to any of that pagan mythology anymore.

              • lorac

                Oh no – don’t let the bots hear that. They may solve the birth certificate drama by substituting this story. Although – would a child of a superhuman Roman god use Greek columns….???

        • Obama: Dubya 2-Electric Boogaloo

          The bottom line is that religion and “faith” are still based on an irrational belief system. Why do you think it’s called “faith”?

          Essentially, religion is a parasite on the mind and pocketbook. Why not free yourself form religious dogma and constraints and accept the universe for what it is?

          • Pennsylvania Red

            And some individuals experience a faith so compelling that they give up lives of material comfort to devote themselves to the service and support of the afflicted and downtrodden – all for the love of Christ.

            And in observance of his statement:

            Whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do unto me.

            (See aforementioned Katherine Drexel and Francis of Assisi. Just two of numerous Catholic saints who left lives of wealth, not just comfort – outright affluence and privilege – to serve the poor.)

            And they never would have attained sainthood in the Catholic Church if three miracles (each) had not been attributed to their intercession.

    • Judy L. NC

      I’m calling bullshit on you, Rah Rah. You’re all about “I’m right and you’re wrong.”

      unknown, unproven, and un-demonstrated and blindly call it faith, or you can live your life realistically

      Statements like this are what polarizes “people of faith”.

      • Rah-Rah

        thank you for making my point even more clearly.

        • workingclass artist

          rah-rah…laughable and cowardly…aaaaand predictable…

          • Rah-Rah

            stop kidding yourself, you know nothing about me.

            • workingclass artist

              I don’t claim to..Just commenting on your LAME response to Judy…chuckle…You seem to have a thin skin…and lousy rhetorical skills…
              If you posture as a defender of the “non faith FAITH of atheism “…Then might I suggest You grow a pair?

    • http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

      Truly I have known atheists who lived the New Testament instinctively and far better than many Christians I have known. You won’t find any religious hypocrasy among them either. Many of them have a better shot in the afterlife than some Christians I know.

      I say worship something or somebodyor don’t worship. It’s nobody’s business but yours. And it sure as heck isn’t a determinant of whether or not you are a good person.

      • lorac

        To me, Uppity’s last sentence is a good summary of the point of the post. I think it was saying that people are either moral and kind, or they’re not. It may be genetic, it may be their upbringing. But moral and kind agnostics, atheists, and religious people are similar – therefore it isn’t due to religion.

        Some moral and kind people may be drawn to religion, but it may be a stretch to say it “made” them moral and kind. Especially since there are many other religious people that weren’t “turned good”.

        It seems more likely that other reasons make people moral and kind. Some are taught that this means they should join the church, some continue their morality and kindness in a secular lifestyle.

        IMO, if religion didn’t need to try to remain the arbiter of morality (in order to stay relevant), we’d all be able to accept that all kinds of people are moral and good, with or without religion….

    • elise

      Rah-Rah, I don’t know about Lincoln or Armstrong, but I do know Albert Einstein was not an atheist.

      Some wonderful quotes from the great man himself:

      I want to know God’s thoughts; the rest are details.”
      “I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice.”
      “God is subtle but he is not malicious.”
      “Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.”
      “God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically.”

      These have nothing to do with God, but I threw them in because they are great:

      “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.”

      “I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

  • workingclass artist

    I was merely inquiring about intent…Seemed to have the tinge of persuasion and as such I was asking for clarity from a clever writer…chuckle…Asked and answered…An Atheist apologist should expect such…No?
    It is the nature of apologetics…Kinda the point….

    • pm317

      artist, Proselytization is not my game! :)

      • workingclass artist

        apologist n. a person who defends an idea,faith,cause or institution. – Webster’s Dictionary
        Apologetics is a noteworthy genre of writing with many classic essayists that provoke discourse and contemplation…

        Although there are apologists who proselytize ( attempt to convert )…Not all do…Aaaaand there is a difference….

        Why be defensive? If you write an essay that is an apologetic…you should own it proudly…I’m just calling it as I see it….I also find it amusing how many atheists seem to be rubbed the wrong way when identified as apologists…

  • sandshark222

    Very good points – but let me ask why is everyone so quick to mention all the negative things that religion has brought – but fail to mention all the good?

    Many churches and synagogues and whatnot perform many wonderful charities for the homeless, the hungry, and the poor nations throughout the world. Don’t forget people like Mother Teresa and the good things they have done.

    Just don’t forget folks, nothing is black and white, and that includes religion.

    • pm317

      We are not talking about moderation in sensible religious practices. We are talking about religious extremism and hyping up of the same by ill conceived political ideologies and what part religious dissension from atheists (and theists) alike can play in condemning such practices. This is a call to overt secular humanism (even if you privately practice some religion).

  • workingclass artist

    Ehemmmm….Just say NO to Theocracy….

    • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

      ADMINISTRATOR: If all you can type is sarcasm, then your comments are no longer welcome in this thread, and you will be placed on moderation.

      You are not required to agree with the post. But you may NOT use nasty sarcasm and put-downs of other people.

  • workingclass artist

    even Socrates acknowledged a need for GOD…
    Attacking religion when you mean to attack THEOCRACY is the relevant issue….Kinda sloppy…I’m just sayin’

    • Rah-Rah

      need for is different than existence of.

      • workingclass artist

        Perhaps you should read Socrates via Plato before commenting…to Socrates there was no diff. GOD was a unifying and real principle he sought through inquiry….sheeesh!

  • cathnealon

    Any human activity is inherently capable of being perverted, religion is no exception. Perhaps it has even more potential for destruction because it has such a built in justification-God tells me what to do. I am not an atheist but I respect and even admire this post and many others I have read from atheists. In some way they seem more spiritual, more compassionate and kinder than many so called religious people I have met. On the other hand, as in any group, there are some real self-righteous know it alls also. So, maybe it’s like Shakespeare said, “The only true deformity is unkindness.” And isn’t that what Jesus also implied when he said that the greatest commandment is to love one another?

  • workingclass artist

    Hmmmm…I have met just as many self righteous & confused Atheists as I have religionists..chuckle…
    My conclusion thus far is Apples and Oranges…chuckle…
    My favorite IRONY is the number of “death Bed” or elderly conversions of prominent atheists to religion…

    • Judy L. NC

      Exactly. There are no aetheists in foxholes.

      • lorac

        Whoa – there’s another way to frame that, I want to bring to your attention. If there are no atheists in foxholes, that may also logically indicate that religion is based on fear. There are, after all, strong historical reasons to believe that people turned to religion in order to assuage their fears. Afraid of death – tell yourself there’s an afterlife, and a better one at that. You can see your long lost loved ones. Etc.

        So to many more people, that old, old “no atheists in foxholes” line proves that religion is based on fear, not what you frame it to be.

        There are, after all, different ways to view things.

        • WildChild

          I wouldn’t say that religion evolved from fear. I would say that religion evolved from mans evolved capacity to grasp intangible thought. Having the ability to contemplate the whats of the surrounding universe at a time when we didn’t have the models to explain the how’s or the whys we created our own models that included a higher power. As we have teased apart more and more of the hows and a few of the whys the model that includes the higher power has been less relevant in daily life. But isn’t gone. There are still so many whys left unanswered. As long as they exist, God will be their answer.

    • Judy L. NC

      Exactly. There are no atheists in foxholes.

  • Sonic Ninja Kitty

    Interesting topic. I do have to say a word in defense of Eckhart Tolle, though. His book is not mainly about religion or spirituality, imho. It is about living in the present moment–why you should take a deep breath and pay attention while you are doing it. It gives you some new paradigms for the past, the future, thoughts and feelings. These are all mental constructs which exist only in each individual’s mind in unique forms and not universally as does a chair or a rock. It challenges you to think about what you create in your mind versus what is created by ‘life’ around you. There’s nothing wrong with creating things in your mind (memories, plans, feelings), it’s just that you can be in control of them versus them being in control of you (big stumbling block for many of us!), and when you clash with someone, your construct is clashing with their construct. It’s a helpful way to look at it, that’s all. Also, when you recognize the ‘life’ part of it (which you have no control over), that is the creator-spiritual-whateveryounameit part. I’m not really a touchy-feely person, but I loved the book. It’s for believers and atheists alike. Everybody take 3 deep breaths now :)

    • pm317

      Thank you for your comment. I knew I was asking for it when I mentioned Tolle (I’ve a friend who is an ardent follower and she would not like me saying what I did — it does irritate me that he went on Oprah). I have nothing against them except that I don’t want to hear their prescription. Because this life is my personal journey and I want to design it with actions/reactions to the best of my abilities and people like him intrude in my space. It is just a personal preference.

      • Sonic Ninja Kitty

        I don’t want to promote any particular book, I just wanted to make a point that just because one person likes/dislikes it doesn’t mean another would have a similar reaction to it, and I don’t think Tolle ever forced anything on anyone.

        I have to agree with you about the Oprah thing, though. I’ve boycotted her because I think she’s batty (rich, but batty). Did you hear about the latest book problem? The ‘Holocaust survivor’ author turned out to be a fake. Oprah cred = zero. That said, if I had a book, I’d accept an invitation to go on her show. It would only make $en$e.

  • John L, Madison, NJ

    Yes! Russell is a great hero of thought and action. Another great anti-religious work is Lucretius’ Epicurean poem “On the Nature of Things.” He says religion is based on fear of death, and it’s hard to beat that. Also, Sam Harris, “The End of Faith.”

    • pm317

      Lokayatas are likened to Epicureans and both movements may have been contemporaneous. Lokayatas have been credited as motivation for two other religions, Jainism and Buddhism. In fact, this is what Amartya Sen in The Argumentattive Indian says about Buddha — I like his characterization [when he talks about India's religious defenders and advocates of skepticism]:

      [snip]The doubts sometimes take the form of agnosticism, sometimes that of atheism, but there is also Gautama Buddha’s special strategy of combining his theoretical skepticism about God with a practical subversion of the significance of the question of making the choice of good behaviour completely independent of any God — real or imagined. [snip]

      • workingclass artist

        Is the Budda worshiped as a god? Oh the IRONY!

        • elise

          The Buddha is not worshiped as a god or teacher, messiah or divinity. He simply is/was on a journey looking for answers to his own questions. Neither is Nirvana paved with gold or a place.

          Each reincarnation is an opportunity to perfect the soul and a journey or search for ultimate truth. Karma isn’t a punishment. It is a correction in the course of the journey of this lifetime or future lifetimes. A choice we make which can provide spiritual growth with the goal to be reunited with “God” and all other souls seeking Nirvana.

    • Angel

      Comment by John L, Madison, NJ – Yes! Russell is a great hero of thought and action. Another great anti-religious work is Lucretius’ Epicurean poem “On the Nature of Things.” He says religion is based on fear of death, and it’s hard to beat that. Also, Sam Harris, “The End of Faith.”

      That’s fascinating.

      Interestingly enough, it’s been my experience that Christians (who most certainly are glad to be alive) do not share the same depth of fear that non-believers feel when it comes to death, because they and their loved ones know they are going “home” to be with the Lord. It is that certain belief that gives comfort to those facing death and for those who have been left behind to grieve their loss.

      While I realize Lucretius’ work is a poem, to say that religion is based on fear of death implies that those who aren’t religious do not fear death, which of course is ridiculous. I imagine they do just as much (if not more so) than those who have faith in God.

      Just my .02

  • ford

    It is my opinion that religion serves an important part of human life. I am not a religious person, but I have observed that people with NO religion or spiritual context are easy victims for people who are selling snake oil. It’s almost like your religion “box” needs to be filled with something or you become a target.

    I think many people who think Obama is the messiah had nothing in their religion/spirit box. I am not using this as a way to attack BO. This is a long standing belief of mine. My children have never had a formal religious training but I have tried to get them in touch with their own spiritual beliefs.
    I am part Jewish, Protestant, and Catholic. I think a good awareness of religion and a discussion that allows respect for religion is important.

    There are many people who find life more worth the effort, because of religion.

    • http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

      Interesting, and probably very true. I find myself the oppostite. I don’t feel susceptible to any form of manipulation, by Obama, snake oil salesmen, cults or religion. I am more the analyze and discuss, and form an opinion type, but don’t feel the need to fill a void. I kind of feel like if I were more willing to accept God and the bible, i would believe other manipulations.

      But, there are, obviously, many millions who embrace, and need, want, enjoy, love their religion, and it is positive and good for them. And I say, good for them. I hate the hypocrites (all those crying ministers who have sinned… the molseting priests, the money grubbing churches, etc.) But there are many churches that do fabulous humanitarian work.

      But, I think you are correct for many people… Don’t a lot of addicts turn to god for recovery? And who are those types that fall for cults? Tom Cruise types… hahaa

  • oowawa

    We’re all little creatures on an insignificant speck of dirt circling a little star in an average galaxy floating among bizillions of other average galaxies in a great big who-knows-what that all started from a submicroscopic point who-knows-how and will eventually end up who-knows-where and who-knows-when.

    On the other hand, each one of us is the center of the universe.

    This is all very hard to figure out. And yet we keep trying.

    Religion is very bad sometimes: there’s no doubt about it. Religion is very good sometimes: there’s no doubt about it. I look at the comments in this thread, and I respect and acknowledge the good-will and intelligence behind the differing viewpoints. If this is wishy-washy, then so-be-it. We’re all awash in the great cosmic soup, and it’s really hard to understand much about it.

    Maybe we should all talk about something we can all comprehend, like quantum theory.

    • Sonic Ninja Kitty

      What “is” is whatever you want to call it–God, chance, life–”religion” is the construct we use to talk about it. Each construct exists in unique form in the mind of each individual, and none is perfect to boot. Therein lie all the problems and sources of conflict.

      Believe it or not, I am actually a numbers person, but this way of thinking helped me place things in order better. That’s my 2 bit 2 cents worth (lol).

    • elise

      oowana, quantum theory has some similarities to the belief in God. No one has ever seen a quark. Physicists have “proven” they exist because of the interaction with other quantum particles which most people have not seen either.

      Constance have been provided (fudge factor) to make these proofs, yet when the existence of these particles are taken into account when measuring, for example, the amount of time lost by astronauts traveling in space, they have made a difference in the calculation and have been accurate.

      I have never seen a quark, but I believe they exist even though no one knows exactly what they are.

      • WildChild

        quarks are energy, but existing in a different geometry.

      • oowawa

        Elise, when I mentioned “quantum theory,” I was being facetious, because it is something that is way beyond my comprehension, especially when concepts like “strangeness” enter the picture.

        I appreciated your earlier remarks on Buddhism, by the way. I like that cosmic model.

        • elise

          “strangeness” just relates to the property of the particles,oowawa, and since we are all made of particles, we all have a bit of the strangeness.

          Thanks for your appreciation of the cosmic model, but I can’t take credit. It is thousands of years old.

  • workingclass artist

    I prefer Epictetus and the stoics myself…

  • Sassy

    Some religious leaders, like politicians, are intent on exploitation of the masses.
    However, call it “free will”, morality, or faith, many of us have an internal feeling about what we want our lives to reflect.
    While I won’t and don’t praise or fault agnostics and atheists, my conscience leads me to different beliefs, which I value and which bring me comfort and strength!

  • The Robot

    I’m reminded of two of my favorite quotes from C.G. Jung:

    “No one knows the ultimate nature of things” and,

    when Jung was once asked whether or not he believed in God, he replied, “I do not believe, I know.”

    These represent nicely my own view on the matter.

    As for religion, I see this as only an expression or invention based upon an innate perception of the spiritual, or God. And though they often mesh, I easily see spirituality and religion as distinctive.

  • benny

    In many ways I strongly disagree with you on this topic. Well, theres always a first time I guess, pm317. :)

    • pm317

      Come on, Benny! I am bashing senseless religious extremism here (which I think is what started atheistic movements everywhere). How can you strongly disagree with that?

  • workingclass artist

    Why include the insulting…chuckle…Why I am not a Christian? or GOD is dead blather…not to mention superstition…sheeesh!
    You have muddied the West with the East…Politics and Religion…and become defensive as a result…C’mon who are you kidding here?

    • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

      ADMINISTRATOR: If all you can type is sarcasm, then your comments are no longer welcome in this thread, and you will be placed on moderation.

      You are not required to agree with the post. But you may NOT use nasty sarcasm and put-downs of other people.

  • benny

    Just 2 points. Think about it.

    1. The topic is ‘In Praise Of Agnostics And Atheists’. It would have been much better if you praise the philosophy of agnostics and atheists WITHOUT referring to or denigrating religious thinking. Put across your points in support of what you believe. WITHOUT denigrating other faith systems.

    2. Senseless religious extremism is a big danger to society as a whole. I agree with that point. You state that you are bashing religious extremism. But at the same time, why don’t you highlight the good deeds of many religious leaders and of their respective religions? When you don’t do that, you are plain religion-bashing.

    I believe that religion-bashing is as bad as racism, sexism, misogyny, ageism, gay-bashing.

    Hey, but I won’t argue about this anymore. This is just my two cents. :)

    • pm317

      I respect what you have to say but I strongly reject the notion that I am denigrating any religion in this post at all. The post is about ill effects of religious dogma (I am citing Warren, caste system..) versus support for religious dissension and atheistic view point. Talking about good effects of religion is irrelevant to the post — because that is a given and not under contention.

      • Tuppence411

        The most interesting part of the article for me was the study on the three cases. Not the results, that was a foredrawn conclusion. What I found interesting ( and slightly amusing) was the “modern scientific” take on a topic great scholar and thinkers, philosophers and religious minds have pondered and written about for centuries- The Natural Law. I prefer the works of St. Thomas Aquinas and Thomas Jefferson to an op-ed on Free Inquiry, but hey! that just maybe the cradle Catholic in me talking. I’ll leave you with a quote from Cicero “There is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is difussed among all men, and is immutable and eternal….”

        • pm317

          But aren’t you a little bit curious about the process of generating evidence using alternative methods for the same thing from the progress we have made in cognitive neuroscience and such? (I am not claiming Hauser&Singer are there but it is a small step using the classic evidence-driven methods available to us.) To me it is such a fascinating topic about cognition and human reasoning.

          I run into this same kind of brick wall when I talk to my Hindu compatriots — they say, yeah, everything is explained in the Vedas, all the science and the math, everything. What the hell does it mean? So we stop and do nothing?

          • Tuppence411

            Ahhh pm317, but isn’t the brick wall always there, no matter which path you travel? Science also stops at a point, leaving many mysteries and questions unanswered. It too requires a leap of faith, trusting that the unknown will be revealed in time.

            I will never “see” God’s engraving of the natural law on the human heart just like science will never be able to present to you completely as fact (without equally impressive alternate theories) the inner workings of human nature.

            As far as the Vedas, the Bible or any other old text- put aside religion for a moment- it just COOL reading them and seeing how much knowledge was out there in the ancient world. C’mon reading a passage in the Old Testament and having a Hebrew writer from 5000 years ago describe accurately the earth’s water cycle? How cool is that!?

  • jwrjr

    I would contend that bashing the non-religious folk is just as reprehensible as bashing the religious folk. I prefer “live and let live”.

  • Sammie

    My take on the post was that it was religion bashing(and I used to consider myself an agnostic). It seems as though it is not so much organized religion in and of itself that causes harm, but rather the problem arises when certain people use or pervert religion for their own purposes. Power, lust and greed can serve as the motivation for people to use religion as a weapon of manipulation (brainwashing and media propaganda can also be used to manipulate, even without a religious component).

    As for Rick Warren, I understand the hostility towards his beliefs about homosexual relationships (and women being submissive in marriage), however, the Warren bashing seems to have gotten a little out of hand. I don’t understand why people can’t strongly disagree with some of his stances without trying to demonize him.

    I have nothing against the author of this post, and the Warren bashing has primarily occurred in other entries. It does seem however, as though some people demand respect for their beliefs without affording the same level of respect for the beliefs of others.

    • pm317

      I am sorry you think the post is about religion bashing. It is not. It in fact echoes what you are talking about, the religious hype from the clerical ranks and politicians and its rank and file followers who are so blinded by religion to follow these clerics and politicians — that is my first intro para. I am disappointed that no one seems to appreciate the historical perspective I provide on religious dissension from 1st millennium BC! They were not complaining about the good deeds of religion — they were complaining about the ill effects of religion and its dogma. Sure they also had their views of denying God’s existence but don’t they have a right to that as much as you have a right to claim his existence? Then in Russell’s quote, it is so beautiful — it says we can create a better future if we use our intelligence. Let us use our intelligence now and reject all those Muslim jihadis, Christian homophobes and Hindu whatever..

      At least the atheists and the agnostics can dispassionately look at all religions and point out the negatives. Even at the cost of being falsely accused of religion bashing.

      • pm317

        And one more thing, regardless of whether you are religious or not, I hope you are curious enough to appreciate Hauser&Singer’s empirical evidence on how we are hard-wired to do the right thing most of the times regardless of religion. That is not religion bashing. That is science!

        • Tuppence411

          pm317, Scroll up a few posts. I just wrote my thoughts on Hauser & Singer.

          Instead of disagreeing on whether science ‘proves” we are hard-wired to be moral or whether as this scientist (me) believes “the natural law is written and engraved on our hearts by our creator”; let us agree that it is in all our human nature regardless of religious upbrining to strive towards what is just and moral.

  • elise

    jwrji, there is a difference between a “non-religious” person and an atheist.

    And it is interesting the author is using morality as an argument for the non existence of God since the admission of morality, as opposed to amorality, is not a concept which occurs absent a deity.

    In the instances he provided obstensively showing no difference between believers and non believers, I would like to add three other tests, not to prove God exists, only to show the absurdity of the argument.

    i) A runaway trolley is about to run over five people walking on the tracks. the five to survive. You are the only person able to reach the switch, but you will die in the process. Flipping the switch is ______.

    ii)You pass by a small child drowning in a deep river and you are the only one around. If you try to save the child, being a poor swimmer, you risk your own life. Trying to save the child is _______.

    iii)3. Five people have just been rushed into a hospital in critical care, each requiring an organ to survive. There is not enough time to request organs from outside the hospital. There is, however, a healthy person in the hospital’s waiting room and that person is you. If the surgeon takes your organs, you will die, but the five in critical care will survive. Taking your organs is _______.

    pm317, I have yet to read or hear a logical argument for atheism since this topic has been revisited or had any of my questions answered so I will repeat them.

    Are you a determinist? Do you believe you have free will?

    The best argument for an atheist is the proposition of a machine universe, set into motion by some undetermined force and which cannot be controlled by any action of living creatures. Hence, it is unstoppable and will play itself out until the end of time. Human existence is no more than an unimportant part of this process so nothing we do has meaning. Saving a life or taking a life is simply part of a predetermined path and lacks any active free will on the part of the savior or victim. When any living creature dies, it is part of that process and there is nothingness after the lights go out.

    You have presented the hypothesis, but you have no axioms to build your proof anymore than a true believer. You are simply using morality as your argument which is circular since there is no morality. I heard better arguments in Philosophy 101.

    • lorac

      You are using a religious argument to say that morality cannot exist without a deity. And, as often found in religion, you are presenting argument in a very black and white manner. You’ve set up a straw argument.

      We can have free will, without having the ability to change the course of everything (which religion accords to whichever god it thinks is the real one).

      And unimportant? Yeah, we probably are. It’s religion that says that humans are superior to the other very animals we are. We’re all just creatures sharing a planet. It’s only the humans who think they are the superior species. ie – it’s a human construct, this argument.

      But being only one of many doesn’t mean our lives are meaningless. We can enjoy our lives, we can help and love others, we can create art which can please future generations. That’s not meaningless. It’s only meaningless when you’re starting from the premises of a religious argument.

      Finally – there doesn’t need to be an argument for agnosticism – it’s our natural state. It’s how we are born. That’s why churches and families get little kids into church even before school – it’s the process of indoctrination. And that’s not meant as a snark – forcing children to learn unproven things without question and threatening them with hell sounds like indoctrination to me.

      Basically, I think your argument is unsound, because it is based on religious premises (I think you just don’t notice it), and inappropriately sets everything up in a very black/white condition to try to make its point.

      • elise

        I’m sorry,lorac. I don’t believe you understand my argument. As an atheist, you have no alternative but to believe the universe is an unthinking machine which churns out our futures based on physical laws and over which we have no control. Every sunrise and sunset is determined from the beginning to the end of time. We are nothing more than parts of the machine, made up of the same stuff as everything else.

        If you argue you have free will, you are saying there is something different about you. You are cognizant of good and evil in a way, for example, a grain of sand on the beach is not.

        What is the element which makes you different? The grain of sand reacts to light particles, electromagnetism (gravity), tide and the position of the moon. It has no choice and no free will.

        “Basically, I think your argument is unsound, because it is based on religious premises (I think you just don’t notice it), and inappropriately sets everything up in a very black/white condition to try to make its point.”

        My argument is based on my love of philosophical discourse and not as an apologist for religion. My entire point is dichotomy between religion and the existence of God. To use an argument based on the criticism of organized religion and it’s abuses is not a valid argument for atheism.

        If you want to argue based on the concept of creation of the universe as mechanical, it is illogical to then argue you have a choice or free will. The machine will continue to churn out sunrises and sunsets until it runs out of gas. Nothing has meaning outside this reality. You think you have free will and you think you are moral, but in reality the words have no meaning in this physical machine which began on its own eons ago and will end eons from now when there is nothing left.

        What I want from the author of this post is to admit this is what he believes instead of saying he doesn’t believe in God based on his observation of religious behavior. He has made some statements to “prove” his assertions which don’t hold water and has made some assumptions based on those assertions.

        btw, Bertram Russell was not an atheist. Another comment claimed Albert Einstein was an atheist which is also not true.

  • http://N/A breeze

    pm317

    QUOTE;

    “The word spiritualism as defined by people like Deepak Chopras or Eckhart Tolles of the world annoys me.”

    Is SPIRITUALISM your word or do Chopra and Tolle really use it?

    FYI, ‘Spiritualism’ is a Religion and you or they are very mistaken in using it in lieu of SPIRITUALITY.

    • pm317

      You’re probably right. The more appropriate word is spirituality. I am not referring to any technical definition of the word spiritualism (if there is one).

    • cynic

      Yep. Spiritualism is something quite specific. Spiritualists are its believers.

      BTW, if you’re not entirely certain what you are, take the Belief-O-Matic spiritual orientation quiz and get yourself typed. That way you’ll know for certain which line to stand in after you shuffle off this mortal coil:

      http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx

      Atheists might want to take the test also. The existence of an afterlife may not depend upon the existence of a God or gods. Reality as we know it, for example, might be a program running on somebody’s computer. And the higher-order reality containing that computer might just be a program running on somebody else’s computer…

  • http://N/A breeze
  • noname

    pm:
    Sen failed to criticize any of the marxist formulation to describe India. Some of these people carry out mother of Bill Ayers, they took Nepal with ten thousand plus deaths. Sen failed to criticize marxism when it mattered. That is biased, he has a formulation to prove.

    I am not that removed from India’s heritage of religious dissension which has been alive and well from first millennium BC How did you make this tradition of religious dissension when you say that its writing was lost ? I guess you kind of followed an oral tradition ? By the way what do you have to say about Budha whose opinions were contradictory to Charvaka, I mean it is political acceptable to talk good of Buddha.