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Israel: From Mensch to Bully

By Larry Johnson on December 30, 2008 at 11:00 PM in Current Affairs

(bumped up by SusanUnPC)

I do not deny any country the right to defend itself against unprovoked attacks. So understand at the outset that I do not condemn Israel for going after those in Gaza who are firing crude rockets/mortars. But Israel and the media need to stop the gross exaggeration and distortion. Whatever the weapon system Hamas is firing it is not very accurate and not very lethal. Just compare the Israeli death tolls from these strikes with those of the Palestinian’s in Gaza. Less than ten Israelis dead and more than 370 Palestinians.

If you are younger than 50 years old you probably do not remember a time when Israel did not have the guaranteed support of the United States. It was in 1967 that Israel was the underdog. Israel had its back to the wall and was surrounded by Arab armies that, on paper at least, appeared to be stronger and more dangerous. But Israel started turning the tide and by the time of Ronald Reagan had become the darling of Republicans and Democrats alike.

Unfortunately, at the very time that Israel was becoming a solid ally of the United States it stopped being the humble David fighting the Arab Goliaths and transformed itself into the de facto military superpower of the Middle East. Most of my friends in the intelligence community, the military, and law enforcement agree on one word that best describes what Israel has become–arrogant.

A friend of mine who was on the FBI’s Hostage Rescue team recounted his experience while providing security for General Tony Zinni, who was on a peace mission to Israel and Palestine during the Clinton Administration. I asked him about the quality of Palestinian security personnel he met and was shocked by his answer. He described the Palestinians as far more professional than the Israelis–they were well groomed, neat uniforms, handled weapons carefully, and showed respect for their chain of command. The Israelis security personnel, in contrast, were arrogant and sloppy.

Or how about the Israeli pilots who were with a U.S. intelligence officer in an Arab country. Instead of maintaining a low profile they waved their Israeli passports around, tried to spend shekels, and can very close to getting whacked by the security forces in that country.

And the 2006 invasion of Lebanon? Israel apparently thought it only had to show up on the battlefield and victory was assured. Pure arrogance and Israel paid a tough price for its foolishness.

In the aftermath of the Holocaust, as Zionists among the Jewish survivors struggled to create the state of Israel, it was understandable that there was bitterness and hatred. Some Zionists turned to terrorism. The Irgun and the Stern gang are the prime culprits. Most of the world managed to overlook the fact that the former Israeli Prime Minister, Menachem Begin, was the head of the Irgun, which bombed the King David Hotel. Begin did to the Brits what Hamas is doing to Israel, with one big difference–the Irgun was more lethal on a per capita incident basis. In the King David Hotel bombing Irgun killed 91 people. Hamas, by contrast, has fired hundreds of rockets and mortars and has not killed a tenth of the people compared to the Irgun attack in 1946.

So what is the lesson? The small number of Jews who escaped the Warsaw ghetto, fought the Nazis, and fled to Palestine certainly believed that their survival justified any act. I understand that point of view and can empathize. But the Palestinian people imprisoned in Gaza can make an interesting claim that they too have been herded into a confined geographical space and are surrounded by a hostile force. If you take time to watch the BBC you are likely to see more images of Palestinian civilians, particularly children, being killed by Israeli bombs.

Here we have the ultimate irony–Israel was born in the ashes and horror of the Holocaust and now, using the justification of national survival, employs some of the same techniques and methods that were used against their women and children in places like Warsaw and Lidice.

I would be more sympathetic to Israel’s cause right now if the leadership exhibited some measure of human compassion for what they are doing to the Palestinians. But that compassion and mercy is sorely lacking. I will state it again (though I realize that for the die hard Israel fanatics it falls on deaf ears and blind eyes)–Hamas is not justified in firing anything–bullets or rockets–into Israel. But Israel’s response to these incidents is not eliminating the cause, it is simply hardening the resolve of the Palestinians to destroy those who they see destroying their families. This is tribal vengeance at its worst and will be difficult to quell.

My wish for the new year is that Israel forgets about being a bully, loses some of its swagger, and recovers the humanity and compassion that once made Israel special.

  • crazy 4

    Obama’s mother, Hillary Clinton shared a beliefBY ELIZABETH MOORE | elizabeth.moore@newsday.com
    December 28, 2008
    From July 1993 to the end of 1994, Barack Obama’s mother was hard at work in New York City convening experts, compiling surveys and drafting papers for a major United Nations conference in Beijing, where she hoped to show how much good can be done by lending small sums to poor women.

    As Ann Dunham-Soetoro’s colleagues brainstormed, they agreed that one advocate would electrify their panel: then-first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton.

    Dunham-Soetoro never made it to Beijing. By the time of the 1995 conference, she was in Hawaii, suffering the painful last stages of cancer that would soon claim her life.

    But Clinton did speak at the panel co-sponsored by the International Coalition on Women and Credit that Dunham-Soetoro had brought together at the U.N.’s initiative. Two years later, Clinton helped launch a campaign to extend microfinance to 100 million families, a goal the coalition pushed at Beijing – and attained two years ago.

    http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-ushill215979783dec28,0,7542519.story

    • tek

      What is the point of this comment? I hope you are not trying to villify Hillary.

      • crazy 4

        The point of this comments is ——–a tributa to all great women as described in this story (if u open the link)Hillary AND obama,s MOTHER ———but THE WAY OBAMA TRASHED HER IN PRIMARIES WAS AWFUL –SO I WONDER IF HE KNEW THAT HILLARY HAD ACTUALLY HELPED OUT HIS MOM IN CARRYING HER MISSION —

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhXA3fXpCFk Woman Voter

          Obama only cares about the MALE accomplishments or pretend ones. Just look at this two books…all about the MALE who didn’t take care of him and NOTHING ABOUT HIS MOTHER.

          You would have to show me photos and first accounts of said work… Sorry, but he did write A WHOLE BOOK ABOUT THE DREAMS OF HIS ABSENT FATHER AND NOTHING ABOUT THE VILLAGE THAT RAISED HIM:Grandmother, grandfather and mother.

          • Northwest rain

            Correct and Pastor Manning has a sermon is this very topic — about the words in Obama’s books about his mother & grandmother vs his wife abusing, drunken father.

            Obama is a misogynist — and his mother and grandmother are dead.

            Obot — this is off topic.

            The subject is Israel and the current happenings in their conflict with the Palestinians.

            There is a history to this conflict which many people don’t know.

            The facts are that at the beginning her history Israelis used terroristic tactics and they murdered innocents — gangs of Israelis forced Palestinians to leave –and then they stole their homes and property. Thus the “right of return” demand of the Palestinians — at the least the Israeli OWE payment for real estate stolen.

    • NoTrollZone

      Thanks for the dose of reality again, Larry.
      If people could take the emotion out of the issue,
      they would surely see that a massive military power is attacking refugees who live in squallor, and are contained by that same military power. It is a disgusting horror to see played out. It is a human rights tragedy. But there are those who don’t care about human rights, don’t care about the suffering of all peoples– just select people.
      I’m glad you brought up the King David Hotel incident. There were many terrorist attacks by those set on creating the state of Israel. This is not condemnation– but it seems an obvious point to make– that when a group feels itself without
      option and fighting for its survival—SOME people in that group may well turn to terrorism.
      Israel needs to take lesson from its own history.
      Instead, it shouts “terrorist, terrorist” and
      uses that as a way to attack a population of
      mainly defenseless people. Now SOME in Hammas shoot the rockets– basically ineffectual weapons– and Israel takes the opportunity to kill women and children, bomb a university, bomb police departments, bomb residential areas where there are nearby schools.
      This is humanity?
      It is sad that people who see themselves as caring for the rights of others, suddenly foam at the mouth at the mention of Israel being in any way
      responsible in this debacle. It is also inexcusable that they continue to wave the pompoms for Israel as that country attacks innocent people who are already living in sub-standard conditions.
      Forget about the fact that Israel cut off humanitarian supplies, or that they cut off electricity. Some Hammas whackos sent off rockets,
      so all Palestinians must pay– and perhaps die
      for this.
      YO, Every read Steinbeck’s “The Moon is Down.”
      Ever study the concentration camps or the Warsaw ghetto. Do you know how those Germans destroyed populaces in which SOME opposed the Germans?
      Nah–on the foaming at the mouth types, no analogy is valid. Israel’s history doesn’t matter.
      And everyone is wrong… Because Israel has the “kill Palestinians for free” card.

      • LDW

        Tell me – if Mexican terrorists began declaring that Texas was really Mexican territory stolen from them and began lobbing hundreds of Katyusha rockets into Texas, targeting civilian areas, do you think that the Americans would do nothing, in case some Mexican children just might get hurt?
        I think it should be noted that Jews have populated the land that is modern day Israel since before there even was a Muslim religion. In the second half of the twentieth century, various countries in the region that had been manufactured from the splitting up of the old Ottoman Empire and the occupation by various colonial powers began to expel Jews from their newly formed nations, including Jewish populations that had lived for centuries in Syria, Iraq and Iran, and confiscated their property and land. Israel took in hundreds of thousands of refugees. After the Arabs nations surrounding Israel decided to attack Israel, both in the 40s and 60s, there was populations of Arab refugees created. How many have been taken in by surrounding Arab countries and been granted citizenship by them? Not one. Not a single refugee.

        And now the surrounding Arab (and Persian) nations are allowing anti-Israeli terrorist groups to flourish in their midst. Hamas in Gaza, who hasn’t built a single bomb shelter for civilians, has been firing rockets into Israel indiscriminately. The only reason there hasn’t been more Israeli casualties, is that the Israeli civilians have bomb shelters. Israel hasn’t been firing rockets indiscriminately into Gaza, but has been targeting Hamas bomb-making and military installations. Hamas deliberately puts civilians into these places so that they will become propaganda fodder.

        Israel has a right to defend itself, and if Hamas agrees to stop attacking and to recognize Israel, Israel will negociate with Hamas, just as she has negociated with anyone willing to come to the table.

        • LDW

          negotiate negotiated (sorry!)

        • Mary

          Israel has a right to defend itself.

          Israel DOES NOT have a right to create a Palestinian Warsaw Ghetto, with Bush administration approval, by blockading food, water, fuel (no electricity), and medical supplies to civilians. They have been doing so, for 2 1/2 years.

          Palestinians, unless they have a work permit, are not ALLOWED to leave, not even to move to Egypt or Jordan for better living conditions for their families.

          Sounds JUST like the Warsaw Ghetto.

          They have become what they despised.

          • Mary

            By not objecting to the inhumane conditions I described above, you are complicit.

            Due respect.

            • William L. Donlon

              Mary:
              I agree with you as far as it goes but you seem to be far to selective in your examples.

              Christians are being murdered every day in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq by the Islamofascists.

              Hindus are being murdered every day in India by the Islamofascists.

              Catholics are being murdered everyday in the Philippines by the Islamofascists.

              Buddhists are being murdered every day in Southeast Asia by the Islamofascists.

              Muslims are being murdered everyday by the Islamofascists.

              The Palestinians voted the “Terrorists” Group Hamas into power JUST as the German People voted in Hitler and the Nazi in 1933.

              There were no innocent Germans in 1945 and there are no “innocent Palestinians” in 2008.

              Hamas, with full approval of the Palestinian people have been raining rockets down on Israel for the past 54 days and the “World” has said NOTHING!

              Barack Obama has said NOTHING!

              The Media has said NOTHING,

              I do not care about the Palestinians, their cause, or their dead!

              Hamas and the Palestinians have finally gotten the WAR they have wanted, and worked very hard for these past 54 days.

              When the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate the Jews, there will be peace and not before.

              Until then:

              Cry me a river!

              • WildChild

                sooooooo…. are the Palestinians being murdered in the occupied territories being murdered by judeo-fascists?

              • Strawberrybitch

                You don’t care about innocent blood being shed? Niiiiice. Let’s see how you like it. When you die I will dance for joy on your grave and your children’s grave and you’re grandchildren’s grave. I will blame your grandchildren for every nasty sin you have ever committed and will be happy when they suffer for what you have done. How’s it feel Willy? Hate sucks doesn’t it?

              • Emma

                Amen. William Dolan. You’ve got it right.

                ButI do care about the innocent Palestinians who cannot escape Hamas’s agenda.

        • Idiocracy08

          Tell me – if Mexican terrorists began declaring that Texas was really Mexican territory stolen from them and began lobbing hundreds of Katyusha rockets into Texas, targeting civilian areas, do you think that the Americans would do nothing, in case some Mexican children just might get hurt?

          But I think you could use the same arguement. The Palestinians were living there, as were Jews. Then Israel declares it their land and pushes the Palestinians into 2 very small regions. And occupied it. What do you think Texans would do? I’d hate to think about it.

        • truthtelling007

          “Tell me – if Mexican terrorists began declaring that Texas was really Mexican territory stolen from them and began lobbing hundreds of Katyusha rockets into Texas, targeting civilian areas, do you think that the Americans would do nothing, in case some Mexican children just might get hurt?”

          Well, your image isn’t too far different than the drug cartel wars we have going on at the border. Yes there are no Katyusha rockets, but also the threat is more local than federal. I don’t believe military action would be called for and that is because I live here. It isn’t a theory.

          When you go to some of these towns that I used to visit back during college, you risk kidnapping and being shot. The poverty level mixed with the cartel power and old corruption isn’t much different than Gaza.

          Does that mean that I would endorse airstrikes that would kill almost 400 people? Hell no. It is sloppy work to do that.

          I agree with Larry’s comment that Israel has become arrogant. When you are small in a hostile neighborhood the last thing that is good strategy is to threaten your neighbors based on your relationship to “tha man” who lives miles away (the US). While I support Israel’s right to exist and defend itself, the policies and bigotry towards the Palestinians is the root of the problem. If the most hawkish Israeli’s had their way, the Palestinians would be pushed into the ocean.

          After years of persecution and treatment like this, Israel is a living irony of its past and its present. It has become the type of oppressor that it ran from, fought, and stood up to. Their policy fuels hatred.

          Terrorism is a technique for the disempowered. Whether it was the ANC in South Africa, the Tamil Tigers, the ETA, all these resistance forces thrive upon the oppression. The lines are post-Ottoman British constructs mixed with small victories over the Arabs that seized land.

          I don’t place all the blame on Israel because the ignorant hateful Arab leaders who care more about defeating Israel than saving their own children are just like their counterparts. But Israel is the one who can change it. Every time they get a few steps forward to peace, some asshole has to thwart it with some fanatical action.

          And the US is no help. It is an enabler.
          AIPAC can kiss my ass. I am not interested in having any part of our foreign policy dictated by a lobby. Even my Scottish ancestors want independence from England, but do I want to manipulate US congressmen to get it? Why isn’t my Scottish liberation as important as Israeli liberation? Why isn’t Basque independence and identity as important as Israeli independence? Why isn’t Tibetan independence as important as Israeli independence?

          We don’t really have a tangible policy for Israel outside of complete backing at all times less we all be called anti-semites or soft on the Holocaust. Screw that!

          “Never again”
          I was shouted down one time when I questioned Israel’s right to bulldoze homes with Caterpillar bulldozers.
          I understood the deep feelings the man had about Jewish persecution and the right to have an independent land. I just don’t accept that in order to have that, families who are also hundreds of generations old in the same area are left to live like dogs with the tacit support of the United States and the world.

          When the sanctions against Israel’s inhuman treatment of Palestinians are upheld, the world will have credibility to hold Hamas accountable as well. Until then, it is always a lopsided game of death. It won’t end until the occupation ends.

        • elise

          LDW, This conflict began years ago and had nothing to do with Palestine. The 1967 War was a preemptive war by Israel in response to a decision by Nasser and Egypt to nationalize the Suez Canal. The decision by Egypt was made after the US and Britain made a decision to withdraw from an agreement to build the Aswan Dam which was vital to Egyptian agriculture and to control flooding of the Nile River. After the withdrawal of western support for the Dam, the Soviet Union agreed to build the Dam.

          Jordan had a mutual defense agreement with Egypt so they attacked Israel. Subsequently, Israel occupied Gaza, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, the Sinai Penn. and part of Jerusalem and refused to return the land to the Palestinians (who had no involvement in the beginning of that war).

          It had nothing to do with anti Semites and Muslims and more to do with the US desire to control the Suez Canal. After the war, both Egypt and Jordan recognized the State of Israel, the US lost the opportunity to build the Dam and Palestine began it’s effort to regain it’s land. Almost immediately, Jewish settlers began to claim land as their own and the Palestinians saw their homes destroyed. Israel was able to bring water to the area while Palestine lost it’s ability to survive economically.

          Both the PLO and Hamas have been labeled terrorists and resorted to terrorism to regain their land. That dosen’t excuse what they have done, but the desperation, not hatred of Israel, was the genesis of this conflict.

          Your hypothetical re Texas is hysterical because that is in fact, exactly what happened. Those trying to hold the Alamo are considered heroes and Gen. Santa Anna a criminal. Another bit of Texas history is interesting. When “gringos” began moving to Texas in large numbers, the Mexican government restricted immigration and required anyone desiring to make Texas their home to prove they were Catholic. History is constantly being re-written.

      • nycvoter

        by the way, the Irgun alerted the British intelligence before blowing up the King David Hotel with enough time for evacuation

        • Idiocracy08

          Here’s a list – did they always call?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks_during_the_1930s

          what about this then:
          http://www.cdiss.co.uk/Documents/Uploaded/CDISS%20Programme%20-%20Database%20of%20Terrorist%20Incidents%20-%201940-1949.pdf

          It starts out like this…From the British – CDISS:

          1945
          October 31
          Jewish terrorist offensive against British rule in Palestine begins, with a wave of bomb attacks on police vehicles, railway sites and Haifa oil refinery. One policeman, one soldier and two railway workers killed.
          November 27
          Eight British soldiers killed in bomb attack on police station Jerusalem, Palestine, in Jewish Irgun terrorist attack.

          I guess you approve whole heartedly with Irgun…since you say they always called them in advance.

          And here it says about the King David:
          July 22

          Ninety people killed and forty five wounded after Jewish terrorists blow up he King David Hotel in Jerusalem, Palestine, hich was home to British government and military offices. The terrorists held workers at pistol point while they planted the explosives in the basement of the hotel.

          I guess they always called before this:

          1947
          July 12
          Jewish Irgun terrorists kidnap and then hang two British Army sergeants. The terrorists were trying to secure the release of three Irgun members who had been sentenced to death by the British authorities in Palestine.
          September 29
          Jewish Irgun terrorists bomb police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing four British and four Arab policemen, as well as two Arab civilians. Forty six people injured.
          December 12
          Twenty Arabs, five Jews and two British soldiers killed and thirty wounded in Jewish terrorist bomb attacks on buses in Haifa and Ramleh, Palestine. British mandate to rule Palestine ends on 15 May 1948; state of Israel established.
          December 29
          Jewish Irgun terrorists throw grenades from passing taxi into café near the Damascus gate, Jerusalem, Palestine, killing eleven Arabs and two British policemen.

          And the Deir Yassin massacre
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhXA3fXpCFk Woman Voter

      “I remember us saying it’s such a shame that this is getting unpleasant, because they actually have this connection – they are one degree separated from one another,” recalled one economic development expert who knew Obama’s mother.
      ……………
      May Obama’s mama rest in peace but she is no Hillary and they were not close, there is no record that they even met and in fact this seems to be all fluff of maybes and illusions that they (Mrs. Dunham Sotero and friends) did the ‘foundation’ work for Hillary… Sorry, Hillary had worked on women’s issues for decades before this, in fact in the summers when she was in college.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhXA3fXpCFk Woman Voter

      Oh, and what does this have to do with the current conflict?

  • tek

    Larry, I’m so glad to see this article. I agree that Israel has become a bully and I dislike that the U. S. continues to support them because our politicians are afraid of the Jewish voting bloc. I’m so tired of U. S. politics being controlled by foreign lobbies such as the Cubans, the Jews and now the illegal hispanics, whose legal relatives dictate that voting bloc according to what policy politicians promote for the people who are in the country illegally.

    Of course, I believe whoever got the idea to put a bunch of Jewish people in the middle of the Arab countries must have been sniffing something.

    • bert

      I believe whoever got the idea to put a bunch of Jewish people in the middle of the Arab countries must have been sniffing something. says tek.

      tek, we have dealt with this on a previoys thread. No body just, “put a bunch of jewish people,” [by the way that phrase ofends me] anywhere. This part of the Middle East, this piece of real estate has historically been people by Jews as well as Arabs.

      Since you seem so cock-sure of and full of yourself, and are evidently more intelligent than the rest of us, why don’t you tell us where you would have created a Jewish state.

      • Strawberrybitch

        Well, seeing how it was the Germans who tried to wipe them off the face of the earth, a little spot on the Rhine seems only fair to me. PS I still have family in Germany. But hey, an already crowded small stretch of desert with minimal natural resources set aside by a bunch of foreigners sounds good too.

      • LDW

        Before there was a Christian religion, and before there was a Muslim religion, Jews had been living in what is now modern Israel for thousands of years. Jews have lived in that area of the world since the beginnings of recorded history, and there were significant Jewish populations in what is now Iraq, Iran and Syria, but those countries expelled most of their Jewish populations and stole their land and property.

        • Idiocracy08

          There were also Arabs.

          • Mary

            Yes, there were. Arabs were the majority; Jews very much the minority.

            • bert

              What year was this Mary? When were Jews on the minority? 1030BCE? Or was it 639-1099? Or was it a different date. Can you be a bit more specific.

        • bert

          Exactly, LDW. This is my point. And before the Jewish people occupied the area the Egyptians lay claim to it. Back in Old Testament times the area was known as Judea. Later the Arabs did conquer the land. Seems every one in the area has a legitimate claim to the land and grievances enough to last 10 trillion eons. Even Christians lay claim to the land in that Jesus was born in Jerusalem.

          I certainly do not know how to resolve the myriad issues in this part of the world. However, Larry’s basic premises that Israel has a right to defend itself, yet they are contributing to the problem and the inability to resolve it by their own behavior is spot on.

          • Mary

            Before it was Judea, it was occupied/lived in/the home of the Canaanites, who were the ancestors of the Palestinians.

            Joshua slaughtered them all and took their land when he crossed the Jordan into the Jewish “Promised Land.”

            • bert

              Scholars disagree on your history Mary as new excavations are made. I know I am not knowledgabke enough to figure it all out.

              However, it goes back to my original statement to tek in this thread. And that is, many people have legitimate claims to this piece of real estate. Isreal is now a legitimate state and recognized by the world community. They have as much right to be in the Middle East as any one else.

        • Sonic Ninja Kitty

          You know, this sounds a little like the slavery reparations argument–old group 1 took from old group 2 so now modern group 1 wants something and modern group 2 is standing around going “wah?”

          • truthtelling007

            no, because chattel slavery officially ended in 1865, occupation of Palestine is current.
            I don’t know which “modern group” you are referring to, but the comparison is bunk.

        • sara

          And before there was an USA, Native Americans had been living in what is now modern America for thousands of years! Shouldn’t Native Americans claim their land back?

          • WildChild

            That depends, do native americans have to be in control of America as a precursor to the apocalypse?

          • truthtelling007

            Sure.

    • stodgie

      you know what tek that last remark is rude, crude and not acceptable. you have the ability to write well, use it.

      • tek

        I am well aware of the situation with the Jewish refugees. However, did anyone really believe there wouldn’t be constant conflict with these two groups living side by side again? Ever watch Exodus? Fighting before the Jewish settlement in Israel ever got established and the Nazis immediately insinuated themselves with the Arab states. It just really does seem unworkable to me and history has shown it to so.

        It smacks of imperialism to me. There was a reason the Jews left that land. Just because superpowers controlled the land didn’t mean they could control the age-old conflicts between those people. In fact, it has proven to be uncontrollable and for 60 years people have been suffering and dying because of what really amounts to feuding tribes.

        • Mary

          If Stodgie had his way, the American Indians would claim the land his own house is on.

          Due respect, Stodgie.

          • Mary

            Oh, and by the way, tek, there’s a REASON the land was called “Palestine” before and during WWII.

            • LDW

              Yes, as Palestine was the historic land of the Jews.

              • Mary

                Actually, the Cananites were there before Joshua returned and literally slaughtered them all, women and children included, at Jericho.

                Many of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank have been PROVEN to be illegally built on land PROVEN to still belong to Palestinians.

                And that PROVING was done by an Israeli Human Rights Commission.

          • stodgie

            mary i see you came back tonight to show us all how incredibly stupid, arrogant and bigoted you are. congrats, dearie, you succeeded.

            • elise

              I object to your personal attack, stodgie. Mary has made some good points even if you disagree and she seems to know a great deal of the history. There is no need to be insulting.

              • stodgie

                actually no elise, i don’t consider it a put down. mary was using just yesterday. she has insulted posters for days now. please take up her comments and put downs if you want to be self righteous. thanks

            • elise

              Don’t you consider “dearie” a little condescending?

              • stodgie

                elise, i highly recommend you take the time to look at some former diaries by larry on this subject and see how mary comments to the posters using the name dearie. she can be quite rude on here. i find it interesting that you take issue with me and not with her. as far as being quite intelligent, well throwing bits and pieces sometimes in context and sometimes not from google doesn’t say super smart to me but to each his own.

                what i object to is this what i consider so called outrage that to me is one sided and not taking the whole context into account. some think it gives them the right to insult and casigate others and be over the top in their criticisms of israel. there are two sides to this story.

        • LDW

          Jews didn’t leave the land of Israel. The land that is now Israel was under the control of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years, and in the late 1800s and early 1900s it was largely unpopulated, but amongst the small number of people living there were both Jews and Arabs. European Zionists went to the area, starting in the late 1800s, and LEGALLY bought land to create Jewish settlements. In the early 1900s, the British Imperial rulers decided to stop Jewish migration to the area, because Muslim zealot allies of the British didn’t like the fact of non-Muslim immigration, but there had been no proper political boundaries for any countries in that area for hundreds of years. Virtually all the political boundaries in the Middle East were established in the 1900s.

          • Mary

            Indians didn’t leave the American plains, either. They lived there for thousands of years, but were removed (as the Jews were removed to slavery in Babylonia).

            Are you suggesting the American Indian should regain all the lands they had before they were “removed?”

            Are you supporting illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land (proven by an Israeli commission) just because the Jews were there 2-3 thousand years ago?

            If you are, then give your own land back to the Indians.

            Go for it.

            • bert

              Mary, please stop the red herring by bringing up the American Indians. Stick to the topic at hand. If necessary a new thread can be given over to our treatment of the American Indian.

              The history of Judea/Palestine/Isreal and this area is complicated and goes back thousands of years to when man first left Africa and began to settle the rest of the world.

              The best and easiest to read summary, although not perfect, is at wikipedia. Link provided below. And as I have said several times now, lots of people have legitimate claims to this area. The issues is how do we sort it all out so that everyone is happy and can live in relative peace here and now today? That is the question and the problem. Let’s stop arguing about history and who was there first.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea

        • bert

          But you still have not answered my question, tek. Where would you have relocated a Jewish state? Jews had claim to the lands well before the Arab peoples did. And before the Jewush people the Egyptians ruled the land even though the Jewish tribes claimed the land was theirs. Even after the Arabs conqured the area not all Jews left the area. There has always been a presence.

          All you are stating is that man’s feeble attempts to help have not worked out. Thanks for stating the obvious.

          SO WHERE WOULD YOU HAVE PLACED THE JEWS?

          Antartica??????

          Germany, western or eastern Europe is not the Jew’s historical homeland, Strawberrybitch’s flip remark notwithstanding.

          • Mary

            The United States is the American Indians’ “historical homeland,” bert.

            Give it back.

            • bert

              Your statement is nithing more than a red herring, Mary; a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue.

              • bert

                nothing….not nithing….keyboard is acting up again tonight.

              • Mary

                Oh no, bert. It’s quite relevant to history buffs and those who can extrapolate.

                Give your land back to the Indians, bert.

            • Northwest rain

              Of course — The Indians who were paid in beads for Manhattan Island — were not the owners of Manhattan Island. RETURN Manhattan Island to ??? (are any descendants of the correct tribe still alive?)

              Israel needs to deal with the right of return issue — I don’t think the Palestinians who were displaced have ever been compensated. At least this would be a starting place — the Israelis aren’t leaving — so they should pay for what they stole.

              Also the Israelis need to acknowledge that some of the founders did engage in terrorism in order to establish Israel — this would also be a place to start.

              Acknowledge past wrongs — and establish a point to go forward.

              Most people are unaware of the history of the Nation of Israel. We all seem to be well schooled in the Holocaust travesty — unfortunately many believe that the ONLY Holocaust that ever happened in all of history was the one that happened to the Jewish peoples in Europe by the Nazis. This blinds us to other holocausts that occurred before and AFTER the WWII Holocaust.

              It’s too bad that the American Indians didn’t have stricter immigration policies when those dang foreigners started coming to the “New World”.

              • elise

                N rain, not only have the Palestinians not been compensated, Israel continues to expand settlements in the West Bank.

          • Idiocracy08

            And before the Egyptians ruled the land, someone else did. This is the earlist civilization on record: the Natufians over 12,500 BC.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture

            Asking where would you have placed the Jews is like asking where would you place the Christians? Christians live all over the world and don’t have a homeland.

            I don’t have a problem with a 2 state solution. We have the state of Israel. So where is the state of Palestine? I also didn’t see it as fair that there is a higher population of Palestinians in the region and Israeli’s have more land. I don’t think it’s fair to ask the Palestinians to get 43%, and the Israeli’s get 57%.

            • truthtelling007

              “Asking where would you have placed the Jews is like asking where would you place the Christians? Christians live all over the world and don’t have a homeland.”

              Sorry, false comparison because Christian doesn’t imply a biological connection to a particular group of People. Yes there are converted Jews, but typically speaking someone who is jewish isn’t simply connected via religion but by blood to the Hebrew speaking tribes descended from Shem.

              Many people are Christian that have no tangible biological connection to the middle east. My family has plenty of Christians who are European so far back there are no records.

              False comparison.

              • Idiocracy08

                In your opinion it’s a false comparison. In my opinion, it’s fair.

                Christians come from the middle east. Jesus was Jewish. How can you say Christians don’t have any biological connections?

                who is jewish isn’t simply connected via religion but by blood to the Hebrew speaking tribes descended from Shem.

                Many people are Christian that have no tangible biological connection to the middle east. My family has plenty of Christians who are European so far back there are no records.

                I don’t see this a biological. I see this as religious. You’re going to have to prove to me without the use of the bible the tribes of Shem were Jewish. Just because they can tell the tribes spoke Hebrew doesn’t mean much to me. People can marry outside their cultures. Does that lessen the biological claim to the other culture? There are a LOT of latinos in the US that cannot speak Spanish, and use the language of where they live.

                And then you’re going to have to convince me that these tribes would not have converted to Christianity. Or Islam.

                Then we can discuss talking about laying a biological claim to a certain group of people.

          • Strawberrybitch

            Actually bert I wasn’t being flip. And Mary is right, I’m part American Indian and Irish…can I go back to Northern Ireland and demand my family’s home land after the British threw us off? Or how about the land the Spanish threw us off in California? Carmel to be exact…damn…I want that land you bastards.

            • TeakwoodKite

              Costanoan Rumsen Carmel Indian Tribe?

            • truthtelling007

              I’m completely for getting Britain out of Northern Ireland and Scotland, no problem there. As for returning to your roots of Carmel, I’m cool with that too.

              I went through this a few decades back when I considered moving to Scotland. But the economy was terrible around my former families’ homes. Glasgow has improved but they didn’t need me to return.

    • Emma

      I guess everyone here has forgotten the suicide bombers that have killed innocent Israelis. Israel is not a bully, This concept show a viewpoint that says the Palestinians are helpless victims. For what ever reason they voted Hamas into power the Palestinian people are their own worst enemies. I think you people do not understand the hatered Hamas has for Israel’s existence period.

      • Strawberrybitch

        Emma. I want my land back, give it to me. My family’s tribe is now officially extinct. You owe me. You slaughtered the men and forced the women to marry the Spanish soldiers. How’s it feel to bear the sins of your fathers? PS Hamas is not the Palestinian people.

        • bert

          Go talk to PEBO, Strawberrybitch. I hear he is all into reparation for the sin of slavery in America. Maybe he will add you to his list of those deserving reparations in America.

          If we look at the history of this world and all the wars and slaughter and injustices the way you are, then we all probably are owed something by somebody somewhere.

          GET OVER IT.

          • Idiocracy08

            I hear he is all into reparation for the sin of slavery in America.

            Since he’s 1/2 white, will he pay himself?

            I bet his white ancestors were slaveowners. His father, or his father’s family were never slaves.

            How does he feel the pain of slavery?

      • truthtelling007

        you let fear speak for you.
        You’ve painted a whole people by the actions of the disparate. Israel is a bully. I do understand that Hamas has deep internal hatred. And hatred has a source. It doesn’t just pop out of people’s asses. It comes from being slighted, held down, or left disempowered. You might want to justify the hawkish hateful attitudes of Israel’s leaders from before its birth till now.

        When we can get honest about both sides we might get somewhere.

        One thing that many Israel supporters ignore is that it isn’t the center of the fucking world to anyone who isn’t all caught up in the 3 Abrahamic religions. So view of the conflict doesn’t necessarily start with the Israeli’s being the good guys and the Arabs being the bad guys.

        There are some very noble people on both sides who have wanted peace but can’t get it because some militant asshole has to assassinate their leader or take the fight in their own hands.

        Blood is on both sets of hands, but I will not stand here and let you talk about Palestinians as if they were all “suicide bombers”. That is plain bullshit.

        And the damage that Israel does to these camps after an attack are so heavy handed they will only produce more suicide attacks.

        I theorize that Israel is in a state psychosis that will not cease in its current conditions. It doesn’t seem capable of being outside itself.

        The United States is following the same scared shitless path of the coward where it will bomb and strike anything to prevent itself from being hurt. This is the action of an injured animal, not a sober sovereign nation.

    • nycvoter

      Maybe we support Israel because we support democratic countries that seek to live peacefully with their neighbors, who contribute to the world through break throughs in technology and medicine. Israel is not a Jewish ally but an American ally. And I’m sorry but Jews are not a foreign lobby.

  • crazy 4

    Clintons to ring in New Year in Times Square

    http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE4BT39Y20081230

    • http://undercoverblackman.blogspot.com Undercover Black Man

      ^ Please quit with these off-topic comments, crazy. Thank you.

      • crazy 4

        I was just happy to read that online ,so thought of posting it here —-whatever …………

        • imustprotest

          Don’t listen to UBM….he’s a bully and for some reason he thinks he’s in charge of this blog.

          • crazy 4

            THX

      • mira

        Agreed, and asked for in a reasonable way. Thank you.

      • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

        I agree with UBM. Stay on topic. He’s not a bully and he asked politely.

        • Northwest rain

          Sorry I disagree — HE is a bully.

          • Seneca

            UBM has a lot of issues, and they all can be traced back to this looking back at him in the mirror everyday.

            ‘Nuff said.

            • http://undercoverblackman.blogspot.com Undercover Black Man

              ^ Being rich and talented helps me cope.

  • crazy 4

    Kennedy is confronted by gender gap

    Good,i hope –all CNN-MSNBC– trash her as they did to HILLARY while Ms Kennedy was standing on sideline smiling and endorsing OBAMA B/C he reminded her of her own father (a man)……..

  • silverfox

    larry

    though i loathe the fact that innocent people are being killed…

    why is it ok for Hamas , Hezbollah, and other associated terrorist groups backed by Iran(and others), to want and act upon the complete destruction of Israel? and why has nothing in past efforts at peace been able to surmount this need for the complete annihilation of the State of Israel? this fact of unbridled hatred is paramount in any discussion.

    just saying.

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      Where the hell did I say it is ok for Hamas? Can you read?

    • truthtelling007

      “why is it ok for Hamas , Hezbollah, and other associated terrorist groups backed by Iran(and others), to want and act upon the complete destruction of Israel?”

      I agree with Larry, where did this ever get condoned here? I didn’t read Larry do that. I certainly don’t believe that crap. But I do believe it is an obvious causality based on Israel’s occupation and behavior towards its neighbors.

      I may understand how a wife who has been abused hacks her abusive husband up to pieces in a maddened outrage…it doesn’t mean I condone it.

  • grtphoto

    I completely agree with your position on this. I cannot add anymore b/c you said it so succinctly. personally i do not feel that we need to be on the side of enabling Israel all the time, stay the hell out. if they want to act like a bully let them – all i ask is for a truthful accounting of the story by the msm, i know, big request.

  • Retired

    Perhaps yet another example of Israeli arrogance was their use of a friendly foreign intelligence station chief’s residence for breaking and entering exercises by Israeli intelligence trainee classes. I’m not exactly sure how this materially contributed either to Israel’s survival in a tough world or fostered friendly relations with that country, which has done much for Israel. The Israelis, however, were highly offended when a visiting senior official of the friendly foreign intelligence service brought the matter up during a visit and asked that the practice be halted.

    • Mary

      Israeli arrogance? Yes.

      The use of cluster bombs in Lebanon, killing women and children, KNOWING the UN had forbid them, but the US would protect them and SUPPLY those cluster bombs…..THAT is arrogance, indeed.

      Time for America to expect Israel to follow international law just like every other country in the world.

      You want more 9-ll’s?

      • elise

        Mary, the US vetoed a UN resolution condemming the use of cluster bombs in Lebanon. Possibly because we have a few of our own?

      • nycvoter

        Yeah there were a lot of valid reasons for 9-11, we brough it on ourselves. I love this logic. Sick people, that think they are going to be rewarded in the after life, think flying planes into civilian offices, makes a good point and you call it our fault.

        People need to realize there is Nothing Israel can do, except stop being Jewish, to make the all arabs happy. I am just waiting for the arabs who desire better things for their children, on whatever piece of land they own, to rise up and join Israel as partners in peace. I know they have to be out there, but they need to not be terrorized by their own people as well.

  • NYC

    Read my lips: The next USA President will be a Jew or a Latino (born somewhere else but here). That’s the way it will be from now on. The United States of America has started the guilty voyages.

    • TeakWoodKite

      ^ Please quit with these off-topic comments, NYC. Thank you.

      :)

  • http:www.myspace.com/isomer_69 LAUREN

    The U.S. gives 1/3 of it’s foreign aid money to Israel. I can think of several countries this money would benefit more. There are people starving and dying from disease, but the U.S. would rather give money to a country that uses the monies to kill.

    http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

  • TeakWoodKite

    Mr. Johnson, what I find disturbing, aside from the loss of innocent life, is that Israel has bigger problems to the north but chose to commit her resources in Gaza.
    It would appear that the co-ordination of Hizballah and Hamas that occurred during Israels incursion of Lebanon has become more of a factor.

  • stodgie

    larry has put himself out to make heartfelt and very reasonable comments regarding a tragic and dangerous situation. we don’t always agree with everything but it is smart and well thought out. he also is far more willing to let those who might not agree with everything post it in a reasonable and courteous manner. not many will do that! i hope that we can all get away from bashing both sides. hamas is a bad actor, period. the israeli government is making some bad decisions. we i hope can all agree on that. i have noticed that some posters tend to think that general israeli bashing is now in order. that is not what larry meant(hope that is ok larry!). thanks

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      You are exactly right.

      • Mary

        Thank you , Larry.

        One can believe in Israel, and still be offended when they over-reach arrogantly.

        The fact that they assume Americans will support anything they do is quite offensive, frankly.

        Your posts are a breath of fresh air.

  • Gary McGowan

    Russia called for Israel to end its attacks on the Gaza Strip, and to allow humanitarian supplies into the territory, saying it is necessary to “restore the regime of ceasefire.”

    India urged “an immediate end to the use of force against Palestinian civilians,” and expressed its “hopes that ongoing efforts within the region to restore peace would be supported.” The Congress Party of India said in a statement, “The disproportionate use of brute force by Israel resulting in colossal loss of civilian lives, including women and children, has caused deep shock and anguish throughout the world. This action, therefore, deserves strongest condemnation.”

    China said it was shocked by the Israeli attacks, and called for them to end. In a major editorial, China’s People’s Daily describes the Israeli air attacks on the Gaza Strip on Dec. 27 and 28, and asks: “Why has Israel taken such brutal actions against Hamas?” The editorial also points to the fact that Israeli elections are coming up, and “Likud Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu has always accused the government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of being weak…. Only with a tough stance, would [Olmert] be able to defeat Likud and other political parties and win the general elections.”

    Third, People’s Daily notes that Israel has capitalized on a vacancy of power in U.S. politics, as Bush is about to end his Presidency and President-elect Barack Obama is yet to take office. “Israel took the advantage of this special ideal, opportune moment to launch surprise assaults on Hamas.”

    Chinese Vice Premier Li Keqiang said in Kuwait City Dec. 28, that China was shocked by the Israeli attack and “supports the efforts made by all parties, especially the Arab countries, to realize a comprehensive, just peace in the region.”

    Indonesia pledged $1 million in aid to the people of Gaza, and $200,000 in medical supplies.

    Malaysia called the Israeli attacks a crime against humanity, “tantamount to genocide.”

    Thailand also denounced the Israeli assault.

    South Korea asked both Israel and Hamas to stop using military force and initiate dialogue.

    Demonstrations against Israel continue in European countries.

    Meanwhile, White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe called Hamas “nothing but thugs,” and reiterated that Israel “is going to defend itself against people like Hamas.” In Israel, Defense Minister Ehud Barak (who also wants to be the Prime Minister of Israel, and is running in the February elections for the Labor Party) said that this attack on Gaza is a “war to the bitter end.”

    All discussions on the Israel-Syrian talks that have been taking place in Turkey have been suspended (a large topic — I believe this is one of the major geopolitical goals of this unleashing of chaos, the other intertwined goal being to stick the incoming Obama administration with an impossible hateful bloody mess which will serve as an overpowering distraction to The U.S., China, Russia and India dealing with the collapsed world monetary-financial system and leading in creating a new one.)

    And, of course, a leading Saudi Wahhabi cleric, Awadh Al-Qarni (also spelled Al-Garni) issued a Fatwa “to spill the blood” of Israelis everywhere in the world, as a revenge for the Israeli attacks against Palestinians in Gaza. His fatwa, a religious decree, was published on Islamonline.org website, which in turn is run by Sheikh Yosuf Al-Qaradhawi, a leading Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood member and anti-American agent provocateur.

    “All Israeli interests, and anything else related to Israel, are a permitted target for Muslims everywhere… They should become targets. Their blood should be shed as the blood of our brothers in Palestine has been shed. They should feel pain more than our brothers,” Al-Qarni stated. He added: “This is a fatwa that I am responsible for in front of Allah,” Qarni said. Implicating other moderate Arab nations, such as Egypt, he accused them of being “part of the conspiracy”.

    Al-Qarni also attacked the United States for its silent condoning of the Israeli massacres. “Washington, by its silence and support for the Israeli massacres, will destroy the future of humankind, not only relations between Muslims and the West.”

    Another Saudi cleric, Salman Fahad Al-Oudeh, (chairman of the Saudi institution Islamtoday.net) also issued a statement calling on Arab countries, especially Saudi Arabia and Egypt, to respond to the Israeli attacks “with actions, not merely words.”

    These statements should be viewed as signals for Saudi-British sponsored Salafi terrorist networks to wreck havoc internationally and target not only Israeli interests but even American or the interests of U.S.-allied nations. This comes amid warnings that “a third force”, not the Palestinian Hamas, Islamic Jihad, nor Lebanese Hezbollah, could expand this conflict into a global threat by targeting other nations with terrorism. This would put the whole world and the incoming Obama Administration in an impossible situation regarding peace in the Middle East and U.S.-Muslim relations.

    The two above mentioned Saudi clerics, Al-Qarni and Odeh are part of a 20-person powerful Wahhabi faction in Saudi Arabia who have a key role in sending marching orders and recruits for terrorist operations internationally. In 1994 this grouping was sent to jail by former King Fahad for supporting a call by then London-based Osama Bin Laden for “reform” of the kingdom. These clerics were later released after cutting a deal with the Saudi royal family, according to which the Saudi government support some of their demands for supporting Jihad operations in the Caucasus, Kashmir and elsewhere, in return for directing their rhetoric away from the Saudi royal family and against the “west”, Russia, China, India or other powers allegedly oppressing Muslim minorities.

    In November 2004, following the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the two joined a group of 20 Wahhabi clerics who issued another Fatwa calling for armed resistance against the Americans in Iraq and anybody who collaborated with the Americans. The “collaborators” category included not only Iraqi government officials, police or armed forces, but almost every Iraqi who went to his job and did not participate in armed resistance against the U.S. troops. Saudi youth and others from Arab countries poured into Iraq after this fatwa to launch suicide attacks against Iraqi civilians. Al-Qaeda and extreme Sunni militant groups inside Iraq used this and similar fatwas to justify to the most heinous crimes against Iraqi and foreign civilians.

    Now these clerics are hoping to arouse such chaos on a global scale.

    This is no time for hate speech against anyone. It is a time to call for restraint by all concerned in the face of constant provocation by powerful forces who are expert in unleashing chaos. They see the time between now and the U.S. inauguration as their prime window to be taken advantage of.

    • stodgie

      well gary, i had heard some speculation that israel was using this as period to remove what they perceive as threats. the final act would include taking out iran’s nuclear installations.

      so obots you wanted obama so much thinking it would be peace and whatever. yeah thanks!

      the price of oil is going up again gary. you or larry see a connection there considering the saudi clerics involved here. i was told to invest in the iraqi dinar as it was going up.

      • Gary McGowan

        “Israel using this as period to remove what they perceive as threats” is insane strategically. Won’t work. Using Larry Johnson’s recommended tactics would have been light-years wiser. This has (only temporarily, I hope) derailed good negotiations that were in process.

        I’ve never been close to being an Obot, but if he makes it to the Presidency, there is a chance his administration could do some decent things — the institution of the Presidency (Constitutionally and historically) is greater than the one person.

        Re investing in any currency, it’s a casino under the post-1972 floating exchange rate system. A new system (such as FDR intended, and got to some degree before his sudden death right at the end of WWII) which would make long-term treaties and cooperation among nations possible again for world development, is what this bloody chaos is being orchestrated to prevent. Energy security for nations would improve greatly under such system.

        • stodgie

          thanks for making those points. you are giving me some things to ponder with the new year and new opportunities approaching.

    • the duke of marlboro

      Will the US be sending aid?

      • Idiocracy08

        Ask Karl Penhal & Cynthia McKinney. They tried, but their boat was rammed…in international waters.

      • the duke of marlboro

        To Gaza, that is, to the Palestinian people?

        • Mary

          Probably not, Duke.

          It was the Bush White House that enthusiastically supported the sanctions and the blockade of food, water, fuel, medical supplies, and the closing of all borders. We also supported Israel’s withholding of Palestinians paid taxes–their fair share to feed their people. All of that, for 2 1/2 years.

          Their idea was that the Palestinians would rise up and throw out Hamas, if they were starving and dieing.

          Netanyahu agrees with this Bush /Cheney bullshit.

          And the rest of the world thinks the United States is complicit in these atrocities.

  • Katherine B.

    It is distressing for me to read Larry’s comments, which are clearly anti-Israeli. Calling Israel a “bully” and using loaded words like “crude” and “not very lethal” to describe rockets launched by Hamas shows an editorial bias that we’ve all learned to spot in the media. Perhaps if Larry had been blogging here for months criticizing Hamas for continually launching rockets into Israel, for unilaterally ending the ceasefire that led to this mess,or for forcing Palestinian women into strict Islamic observances he might have some credibility with me. But, of course, he hasn’t.

    Anytime Israel decides to take any action to defend itself, it is accused of being a bully. It almost seems the world, and Larry, would like the Israelis better if they were still vulnerable and in danger of annihilation. The fact that they have chosen to be strong in their own defense is apparently a big no-no.

    But what is really sad to me is that the unity we once shared here at NQ in supporting Hillary and opposing BO has now fractured on this issue. I had been a modest contributor to this site and had dutifully ordered my Amazon purchases to help, but no more.

    • oowawa

      the unity we once shared here at NQ in supporting Hillary and opposing BO has now fractured on this issue.

      Every controversial issue is going to redraw the battle lines, and the readers are going to take sides differently. This is to be expected, and is in fact inevitable.

    • Thinker

      Anytime Israel decides to take any action to defend itself, it is accused of being a bully.

      - I disagree with this.

      I think most reasonable people would expect Israel to defend it’s people. I would expect them to do this and I support that.

      The problem occurs when the force used is disproportionate, The problem occurs when anyone with a brain can see that Israel has the technology to try and mitigate the deaths of Palestinian civilians, to fight smart and get the message across without having to kill hundreds of civilians, and the Israeli military is choosing not to do this.

      Sometimes “self-defense” becomes……..murder.

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      Katherine,
      Are you a moron? When someone fires over 300 rockets/mortars and fewer than 10 people are killed, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU CALL THAT? HIGHLY LETHAL?

      Can you at least have a shred intellectual honesty? And please show me where I said it was okay for Hamas to fire the rockets? Oh, that’s right. YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO READ.

      Seriously, your brand of stupidity just pisses me off to no end.

      • LDW

        The Israeli government does not want civilians killed, and they build bomb shelters for their civilian populations and give warnings as much as possible.

        Hamas is happy to have dead innocent civilians to use as anti-Israeli propoganda, and the Hamas leaders only build bomb shelters for themselves.

        It’s not just that Palestinian civilians are left unprotected: Palestinian civilians are deliberately placed in the line of fire by Hamas so that they will be killed.

        But Israelis within rocket range increasingly live in terror, and have to sleep in bomb shelters every night, and every once in a while some of them die in rocket attacks.

        Would Americans put up with, say, Mexican terrorists who claimed that Texas was really their property and began shelling Texans with hundreds of rockets? And if these Mexican terrorists were the ‘legitimate’ government of Mexico? What would the American ‘proportionate’ response be??

        • Mary

          The Israeli government killed 7 United Nations workers (college kids) who were volunteering/helping the starving citizens of Gaza.

          7 United Nations VOLUNTEERS. College kids.

          Do you even HAVE a conscience?

        • Northwest rain

          Bomb shelters are for JEWS only — not for Palestinians — this is what I learned during the Israeli attack of Lebanon.

          Interesting that the Israeli propagandists are out in force.

          I refuse to take sides — except to say that Israel has a right to exist and so does a Nation of Palestine. Somehow these two ethnic groups have got to figure out how to get along — I’m damned tired of these two feuding brats.

          Also, it is a fact that Israel is killing an inordinate number of innocent children. When I saw the statistics and the injuries of children — I realized that Israel has been a master of propaganda — they can no longer play the victim card.

      • nycvoter

        It’s not highly lethal, it’s terror. I remember after 9-11, I was out the next day on the Upper West Side feeling completely safe. Now imagine if they had blown up 10 city buses randomly once a week for a year. I’d be extremely terrorized, especially if that was my only transportation to work.

        The people in these towns are living under constant threat of bombings. That’s what needs to stop.

        • Idiocracy08

          Ok, Giuliani…we get it. Some people are liking the fact that others are connecting this to the native Americans. Quit connecting it to 9/11.

          Imagine if your entire city was bulldozed to make way for occupation.

          • Idiocracy08

            some people are not liking the fact

  • http://theheraclitanfire.blogspot.com/ Craig Della Penna

    Larry:

    No one looks good at this point. The Israelis have indeed become arrogant (I have my own sources who agree with your assessment) and Hamas and Hezbollah are still determined to kill every Jew in the world.

    Time, even if it doesn’t heal all wounds, lets us forget some, so the Irgun fades into history and few remember… nor do they remember that Egypt and the Arab world celebrated in the first few days of the 1967 conflict because they were certain that, at last, they would quite literally be able to kill all of the Jews… plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose…

    But, truly, the Palestinians and the Israelis are pawns in this game – we should really be looking past the surface conflicts here is we ever want to get to a solution. What do the Saudis want? How beholden are they still to the Wahabbis? What does Iran want? How precarious are the imams in their theocracy?
    What about Egypt and it’s near-to-starving millions?

    Israel is just too convenient for these folks to resist, anytime they want to deflect attention from their own abysmal performance (despite their oil trillions) they let the Hamas or Hezbollah wackos lob a few more rockets into Israel and, oh so predictably, the Israelis oblige by firebombing Gaza or Lebanon or the West Bank… and on and on

    And just for reference, the oil-rich Arab states could have created a prosperous homeland for the Palestinians long ago at a fraction of the costs they have incurred fighting this endless war, why haven’t they? And BTW, neither Hamas not Hezbollah would last two weeks without the active infrastructure (read: guns and explosives) and financial support of the aforementioned oil-rich Arab states.

    We’re never going to get anywhere near a lasting peace by dealing just with the Israelis and the Palestinians. We need to get the real players to talk and since we’re Israel’s sugar daddy, they’ll need to talk to us.

    None of this is news to anyone who’s willing to look facts in the face, so my question is: why hasn’t anything significant happened in the ‘peace process’ in the past twenty years?

    My suspicion is that, so long as the U.S. is dependent on Middle East oil, the war will never end.

    • stodgie

      craig, well put! thanks!

    • vjhinFla

      Craig has hit the nail on the head. The problem is not just between Isreal and Palestinians. The reasons we – yes We – are in this mess is a most complex and tangled web. Much can be attributed to England and France after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. ALL the people living in the Nations that make up the Middle East including Isreal have a right to a safe and peaceful existense.
      There is no longer any room in this world for the all or nothing state of mind. All parties must sit down and NEGOTIATE. All of the people in all of the states and nations of the Middle East have a legitimate claim to be there. Until ALL of us realize that no one country is right or wrong we will get nowhere. This whole region has been blistered by mismanagement for the past 100+ years. Time to get over the tit for tat and finger pointing crap and hammer out a workable solution. Yes, I do realize this is a monumental task – much easier said than done, and everybody is not going to get everything they want but unless this can be accomplished there will never be peace

    • elise

      Craig, love you and love your posts from TM, but the 1967 war was preemptive by Israel in response to the nationalization of the Suez Canal by Egypt. No one really lost in that war except the Palestinians. Egypt still got the Aswan Dam, Israel got the land and recognition by Jordan and Egypt, the Soviet Union got to build the Dam and the US gained allies in the middle of oil country.

  • Mar

    Larry,

    Thank you for the excellent piece.

    It does seem that Israel is doing to others what was done to Jewish people during WWII.

    I also believe that Israel lost its moral authority on June 8, 1967. That was the day that Israel mistakenly (yeah, right)attacked the USS Liberty. Israel has called the incident a mistake even though it was clear it was a US ship. (I hope you will consider writing about this as the 40th anniverary passed with little recognition of the day.)

    Prior to the Six Day War of 1967 the US did not provide military assistance to Israel. Our country has ever since and has paid a price in attacks against our citizens with the rise of Islamic terrorists.

    It is time that Israel stopped being arrogant. The threat of overwhelming military force from Israel is supposed to be a deterrant to the hostility that surrounds Israel, but Israel’s incursion into Lebanon damaged its aura of invincibility.

    • Retired

      Interesting point. Why is Israel so abusive of its friends? Why can’t they just say “thanks?” Had I not personally experienced the arrogant, condescending behavior of both the Mossad and the IDF several times while trying to help them, I probably wouldn’t have believed it. And I am not alone in this among those who have dealt with Israeli government representatives.

      • Northwest rain

        This could be a National attitude — I’ve gone to school with Israelis and all were rather arrogant. It was interesting to take a Political Science class with BOTH Israelis and Arab Nationals in the class (sitting in opposite corners of the room). Yelling back and forth.

        American Jews who travel internationally have expressed the concern that the actions of Israel make it more difficult for Jews all over the world.

        Israel has more than likely been used as a pawn by bush/cheney — I always felt that the Lebanon invasion was really bush’s third war. He seemed to egg them on and was happy to provide overnight shipment of needed bombs etc

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    There’s plenty of blame as well as compassion to go around for both sides of this pitiful situation. I see professional victims on both sides. I’m sick of both of them. The Arabs are going to use the Palestinians as pawns so long as it works to undermine Israel. And yes, years of being threatened with extermination have compromised the heart of Israel.

    My hope and prayer is that the Arab states stop the fools goal and begin investing and building a Palestinian state, prosperous, beautiful and full of promise; a future for its people that even outshines what Israel has created. A future so bright that Palestinians prefer life over death. These are the people, after all, who have built a Dubai. Shame on them for not investing in their suffering people.

    My prayer for Israel is to never forget the Holocaust but to move past it. Never be goaded into overreacting protect your boundaries but find ways to bring pressure on the Arab states to build a peaceful neighborhood. I don’t believe for one minute that Israelis want war. Not one of us would tolerate in our country what Hamas has been doing in Gaza. That Hamas was voted in as the governing body for Gaza speaks loudly to their long range intentions.

    • http://firefox AnnieCollier

      overreacting. Protect your boundaries…

  • Annie Oakley

    As long as we’re talking truth, here, I’d like to make an analogy regarding “swagger”. When mutual funds were introduced, many opposed them on the grounds that no fund would be truly careful while using (losing) other people’s money. I believe Israel’s swagger partly results from Bush’s and congress’s carte blanche and the excessive influence of groups like AIPAC.

  • Thinker

    Here we have the ultimate irony–Israel was born in the ashes and horror of the Holocaust and now, using the justification of national survival, employs some of the same techniques and methods that were used against their women and children in places like Warsaw and Lidice.

    - It IS the ultimate irony.

    I know what was done to Jewish people during the Holocaust was horrible. As a descendant of slaves, I really do have empathy with any group of people that have been mistreated and persecuted. But this does not give Israel some sort of free pass to kill hundreds of civilians. I understand the fear, I understand that many will say “Never again”, & from the bottom of my heart, I get it, I really do. But what we have witnessed these last couple of days is excessive force, plain and simple. Close to 400 Palestinians dead and 10 Israelis dead????

    The hardest thing to get some people to admit to is the obvious.

    (The new SOS will have her hands full… so is this that 3am phone call?)

    • Rob G in Chicago

      To compare the actions of the Israelis toward Gaza with the actions of the Nazis against the Warsaw Ghetto is insulting. How many Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto were treated at German hospitals and received the same care as native Germans. Jews within the Warsaw Ghetto fought German soldiers within the Ghetto, they did not lob more than 3000 rockets and mortar shells outside the ghetto into a neighboring country. I don’t recall any reports of German troops opening crossings into the Warsaw Ghetto for humanitarian shipments of food and medicine and other humanitarian supplies, whereas Israel has advised several large humanitarian organizations that they are free to organize as many shipments as they want of humanitarian goods through recognized crossings (several dozen truckloads of supplies entered today). Most Israeli citizens within range of the Hamas rockets have access to suitable shelters, but I guess that some posting here would be happier if the death toll in Israel was higher, as that would be “more proportionate”. Grad rockets with a range of 40km are hardly homemade fireworks, and have caused extensive damage and some loss of life in major Israeli cities, but the Hamas leadership is using these more powerful rockets sparingly, particularly since they are larger and more easily detected (seen by remote piloted drones circling overhead)when moved from their storage place in the basement of the main hospital in Gaza. Yesterday alone, more than 100 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza, but the Hamas leadership will have a harder time securing more supplies because the Israeli airforce destroyed 40 tunnels used to smuggle fighters and arms into Gaza, causing huge secondary explosions of arms stored in the tunnels (there are many more tunnels, but 40 is a good start). Egypt may not be willing to turn a blind eye to all of the smuggling because Hamas gunmen killed some of the Egyptian soldiers guarding the border when they tried to prevent Hamas fighters and even the wounded from crossing into Egypt. Hamas likes to complain that the Israelis keep closing the border crossings into Israel, but most of the closures are due to Hamas firing mortars and rockets at those same crossings. Abbas and Egypt both warned Hamas to stop with the rockets and to renew the ceasefire, but their warnings were met with increased volleys of rocket fire.

    • Emma

      Do you know that Israeli doctor treat Palestinian people in need? Many Israelis are compassionate people who are sick of war.
      The picture that is being painted of Israelis today is the same hate mongering that was around in Germany.
      Do the Israelis use gas chambers? Do the Israelis perform scientific experiments on dead Palestinians? There is no comparison between Hitler and the Israelis and anyone who says there is is just showing ignorance.

      The dysfunctional victim hood thinking of one side holds no water here.

      • the duke of marlboro

        But that isn’t really a true comparison, is it?

        Though again, it’s not as if someone like Sharon, (or those extremists who think like him), set out to deliberately cleanse the ME of Arab populations, thinking Israel a superior, chosen people, as Hitler did, the Aryans.

      • Thinker

        Do the Israelis use gas chambers?

        - Dead, is dead, is dead.

        The end result is dead people.

        Whether they die from a gas chamber or a rocket has the same result: Death.

        • Emma

          Thinker,Hitler killed Jews because he was into genocide. This is a crime.
          Israel has unfortunately killed civilians to protect its citizens. There is no comparison.

          • Idiocracy08

            but he used the excuse of nationism to do it with.

  • Nocturnal Warrior

    Of course, what is missing from the conversation is why is Israel doing this now?

    Simply because, Barack Obama will soon be in power and they do not trust him to offer the same kind of support they have had since Reagan.

    While Hillary Clinton’s presence at state may offer a bit of piece of mind, they are very familiar with the many fervent Pro-Palistinean, Anti-Israel friends who have advised and have been close to the President Elect over the years.

    They don’t trust what is coming and are thus flexing their muscles now. A new direction from the U.S. may indeed be coming their way and it scares them.

    They now full and well they will be asked to make concessions, give up land and show restraint from the New U.S. government. They also now full and well, that it will not improve their security, a single bit.

    • Mary

      The Jerusalem paper Haaretz is reporting that Olmert and Ehud Barak (defense minister) have been planning this for 6 months.

      I don’t believe for one second that Israel would proceed with this without tacit approval from the Bush White House, as in Cheney wink-and-a-nod, the same that he gave in Georgia, after beefing up their weaponry.

      But you’re absolutely right: they planned it months ago, waited until after the election and before the inauguration, with WH approval.

      Israel may very well be sending Barak Obama a message of their own.

      Not to mention showing off right before their own new elections in February.

      Arrogant indeed.

    • Emma

      Israel has given up land.

      • WildChild

        yeah but Lebanon doesn’t count.

        • elise

          You have a way with words, Wild Child.

    • TeakwoodKite

      Nocturnal Warrior, how is this for a theory…

      They want to take care of their “flank” first.
      Rockets are not the only thing the Israelis are after. Come a few months from now Isreal will focused on Syria.

      If When the US is garrisoned and then leaves Iraq there will be a corridor for trans-shipments of arms right Syria from Iran and on into Gaza. Iran, Syria and Iraq have no love of Israel. Egypt is not doing much about all the tunnels into Gaza either.

      Just a theory…

  • bell’artista

    This week, Israeli warplanes pounded Hamas strongholds in the Gaza Strip. The goal of the operation is to strike a major blow to Hamas’s terror infrastructure and the ability of Hamas and its allied organizations to launch missiles and mortar shells at Israeli citizens and execute terror attacks of various kinds, such as kidnapping Israeli civilians.

    As casualties mount, media coverage of the fighting will form public opinion, ultimately determining Israel’s ability to complete the necessary operation. Following is a quick guide to some of the big issues.

    Why is Israel bombing Gaza when innocent civilians are being killed?

    Israel never targets civilians. The death of innocent civilians is regrettable under any circumstances and every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties. That imperative must be balanced with the need to protect Israeli civilians, who suffer from ongoing attacks from Gaza. But while the Palestinians fire Kassam rockets indiscriminately into Israeli territory, Israel launches pinpoint strikes at Hamas infrastructure. Prior to launching any large-scale attacks, Israel spent many months identifying Hamas’ strongholds and training facilities. The Israeli Air Force also managed to hit “secret” targets such as underground missile launchers and arms catches — a testament to Israel’s great effort to ensure that air strikes weaken Hamas without harming innocent Palestinians.

    Israel does not want a humanitarian crisis, and Hamas is the cause of the suffering and distress of the population there.

    Unfortunately, Hamas has never shown the same level of concern for either Israeli or Palestinian civilians. On one hand, Hamas has fired thousands of missiles into Israeli territory, killing and wounding hundreds.

    On the other hand, rather than seeking the well-being of the Palestinians under its control in Gaza, Hamas has exploited its civilian population — and Israel’s reluctance to cause civilian casualties — by placing non-combatants in and around areas likely to be targeted by Israel. Hamas brings women and children up to the roofs of buildings housing terrorist activity in an attempt to prevent air strikes; it sends civilians to the line of fire; it works out of schools and mosques; it fires rockets out of crowded population centers; and it sends Palestinian mothers to murder Israeli children in suicide attacks.

    In addition, many of Hamas’ arms smuggling tunnels are hidden beneath the homes of Palestinian civilians.

    This cynical use of human shields is illegal under international law and the cause of many needless Palestinian deaths. Therefore, the responsibility for Palestinian civilian casualties lies with Hamas, not Israel.

    Isn’t Israel’s operation a violation of the Hamas truce?

    Hamas is responsible for the situation, since it violated the calm, is firing against and attacking Israeli citizens, and is investing all its resources in arming itself and gathering power.

    The truce brokered by Egypt was exploited by Hamas not only to employ terror against Israel’s citizens, but also to gain strength and massively arm itself with the intention of increasing their capacity for terror and expanding the range of the threat against Israeli citizens. Hamas men were being smuggled out and were being trained in Iran and Syria.

    Hamas shoots harmless, homemade rockets, and Israel responds with fighter jets and precision-guided missiles. Isn’t that excessive force?

    The Palestinians have long cultivated an image of victimhood to win world sympathy and demand Israeli restraint in the face of Palestinian aggression. In reality, the Palestinians’ so-called “primitive” Kassam rocket has killed and wounded hundreds of Israeli civilians. The number of casualties would be even higher without Israeli security measures such as early-warning alarms in areas under rocket threat that allow Israelis to escape into bomb shelters. Hamas has also fired medium-range Grad-type Katyusha rockets, placing more than 250,000 Israeli civilians under direct threat of rocket fire.

    Given the Palestinian fire power and their willingness to use it, it is clear that the charge of “excessive force” is simply the latest incarnation of the Palestinian strategy of “victimhood.” Terror groups fire indiscriminately at innocent Israelis and then complain of excessive or disproportionate force when Israel fires back. But according to internationally accepted laws of war, Israel is permitted to respond with the force necessary to end the conflict.

    It is also important to examine the intent behind the use of weapons. Palestinian terrorists do everything in their power to hurt or kill as many Israeli civilians as possible; Israel is using its advanced weaponry to protect Palestinian civilians from harm.

    Isn’t Hamas entitled to defend its territory against Israeli occupation?

    Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in 2005, uprooting thousands of its own citizens in order to uphold internationally-recognized borders in Gaza. The Palestinians have no further territorial claims against Israel in Gaza. But instead of working to improve the quality of life for its citizens, Hamas has focused on improving the range and accuracy of its Kassam missiles and mortars and increasing its store of weapons. The Palestinian rockets, therefore, can only be seen as aggression against Israel with no moral basis.

    Palestinians have fired more than 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel since the Israeli withdrawal — all without provocation. The rocket fire even continued during the six-months of “calm” in the Gaza area that ended last Friday. Since then, Hamas stepped up rocket fire substantially, launching 170 rockets at Israel over eight days, an average of more than 20 rockets a day.

    No country in the world would allow this type of onslaught against its citizens. As President-elect Barack Obama said during his visit to the rocket-battered town of Sderot five months ago, “If someone was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing.”

    Isn’t Hamas the democratically-elected government in Gaza? Why is Israel trying to overthrow it?

    Hamas promotes itself as the legitimate power in Gaza. In reality, Hamas is at its core a terrorist organization that refuses to renounce violence or recognize Israel’s right to exist. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by the United States and the European Union.

    Hamas came to power in Gaza through a violent coup against the Palestinian Authority government. The international community continues to recognize the PA, under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas, as the legitimate Palestinian government in the Palestinian territories. At the same time Israel is fighting terror, the government is deliberately and openly maintaining a political process with the Palestinian government Abbas. Hamas opposes these negotiations and any settlement with Israel, and constitutes an unstable element in the region.

    Hamas steadfastly refuses to recognize Israel and continues to launch attacks on its neighbor. Since Hamas refuses to live in peace with Israel, the Israeli government has no choice but to seek Hamas’ replacement.

    • Rob G in Chicago

      bell’ artista:

      Thank you! Excellent and comprehensive response to many of the issues being discussed here.

    • Mary

      A Palestinian Warsaw Ghetto, bella, created by the very same people who should know what that’s like.

      It is an abomination.

      If you can’t see that, there’s no hope for you.

      • stodgie

        mary do us a favor and be quiet. you are embarrassing yourself.

        • Northwest rain

          You said you were IN Israel?

          Perhaps you have some purpose to guide this discussion??

          just wondering.

  • melba peachtoast

    “Delenda est Cartago.”

  • the duke of marlboro

    Government by war, to offset the dread of death and failure driving it’s crippled leadership, one they feel is inevitable for them, as a nation.

    (Which it’s not, btw, it’s simly a reflection of the fears (belonging to) a specific group of people, in power). (sic)

    The solution is to wage war perpetually, stage wars, really, to offset the lack of abilty to govern, the failure to develop a nation.

    Israel should be investing in it’s infrastrucutre, it’s arts, it’s economy, instead it’s become, by choice, it would seem, a failed military state.

    Russia’s future, btw, if the present is left unchanged.

    • stodgie

      duke, you could scratch out israel and write in usa to your comments and still be accurate. that is what bush did with monies instead of investing in intrastructure here.

      • the duke of marlboro

        Yes, you’re right, the difference is the US has money in the bank, so to speak, due to it’s size, and the depth of it’s resources.

  • Idiocracy08

    I’m neither a Muslim or a Jew. I don’t know if it makes me ignorant on the subject, or just objective.

    I think both sides are right. And I think both sides are wrong. I think it’s wrong for either side to say “we’re right, so we have the right to do anything by any means”.

    Both sides have points. And both sides have acted in horrible ways.

    I found these timelines that are interesting:

    This one gives the point of view by both Israel & Palestine.
    http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2001/promises/promises-timeline.pdf

    This one seems like a neutral timeline
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/history.stm

    To me, it doesn’t matter who is more right, and who is more wrong, and who can blow up more people. It’s about stopping the fighting and living together in peace.

    • Northwest rain

      Thank you — good resources and information.

  • the duke of marlboro

    Ostensibly, what was the British reaction to the bombing of the King David Hotel?

    Is there a book that can be recommended detailing the history of Britian, and Israel?

    • the duke of marlboro

      Sorry for the typo it should read “Britain.”

    • Mary

      The British called the Irgun and their bombings “terrorist actions.”

      Rahm Emmanuel’s uncle was a member of the Irgun, and was killed in these activities.

      Rahm Emmanuel spent 6 summers of his younger life serving as a volunteer in the IDF.

      TERRORISTS. That’s what Britain called Rahm’s uncle’s organization.

      • the duke of marlboro

        Is there a recommended book, though, detailing the diplomatic response of the British, long term, to the actions of the Irgun?

        (I found Larry’s essay very informative, historically, filling in some blanks, so to speak. Of course, the history of Israel also ties into the greater cold war, world wide, since it’s inception, obviously).

        • Mary

          Google the word “Irgun.”

          It’s all there.

          • the duke of marlboro

            Google is fascist.

            But I will research, starting there.

            Thank you.

            • Mary

              I’m not sure what “google is fascist” means, but I accept that you think it’s so.

              Another marvelous book about the area now in flames: James Michener’s “The Source.”

              Reading it will change your life. :)

              • bert

                Jesus Christ, Mary, that book is a piece of fiction. Historical fiction, but still fiction. Are you using fiction as a basis for discussing real life problems? Well then, that explains a whole lot.

                • the duke of marlboro

                  What is the function of fiction?

                  I haven’t read the book, but certainly I dont discount a work because it functions as an allegory.

                • Idiocracy08

                  So the Irgun weren’t terrorists?

  • Ron

    Larry, when you resort to calling people who comment here names, you’ve lost the argument. Shame on you. You’re on the wrong side of this one in more ways than one.

    There’s a lot to criticize the Israeli government for but the Gaza operation isn’t one of them. Iran has been helping to turn Gaza into an armed fortress against Israel and that has to be stopped. It’s being stopped. Hamas is an impediment to peace and that has to be stopped. It’s being stopped.

    You talk about Israel being the bully when it’s Iran being the bully in the entire Middle East. Hamas is Iran’s proxy, the ones doing the legwork with Iran’s hardware. That has to end.

    You talk about Israel using disproportionate force. That’s extremely myopic considering how long Hamas has been building underground tunnels, rocket launchers, and command and control bunkers. It takes a hell of a lot of force to destroy that terrorist infrastructure.

    Larry, please name all the countries that have ever launched an attack against an enemy that first phoned 90,000 homes to warn them of the impending attack. Please list them in your next post. I’ll be waiting to read it.

    Hamas takes great pains to inflict innocent casualties while Israel takes great pains to avoid them, even at the expense of the lives of her own troops. Please list all other countries that do that. I’ll be standing by.

    Larry, you’re a huge disappointment to many of us who came here this year to see some sane posts regarding Hillary and Obama. Your posts on this topic just wrong-headed. I’ll be looking elsewhere for intelligent discussion on this topic.

    • Mary

      You’re confusing Hamas with Hezbollah and painting with that ole “they all look alike” narrow-minded brush.

      Iran supports Hezbollah, and Hamas has NEVER been its “proxy.”

      As you can see from the post above, the WHOLE WORLD, including China, Indonesia, and India, have condemned Israel’s actions toward Gaza, just as Iran has.

      That doesn’t mean they support Hamas.

      It means they can see the arrogance of Israel.

      You DO know that there are also demonstrations inside Israel against this action in Gaza, right? Those are Jewish Israelis against the treatment, not Iranians.

      Good grief, the ignorance of not even knowing the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah in America is astounding.

      • the duke of marlboro

        Yes, we Ameriacns are stupid.

        ; < )

      • orwelllives

        Mary,

        Where do you get your information, lady?! Hamas IS supported by Iran. Go do some research before you comment on a topic that you, obviously, have very little knowledge of.

        • bert

          She reads fiction.

      • http://ohmyvalve.blogspot.com/ shtuey

        In fact Mary, Iran does back Hamas. Hamas runs operations out of Syria, which is the staging ground for weapons smuggling for Hezbullah as well as Hamas. It is the connection with Iran, and the Islamic Brotherhood that has Egypt so on edge. Since you probably have no idea who or what the IB is, that’s the radical Islamist group that assassinated Anwar Sadat, and whose leadership was behind the World Trade Center bombing in ’93. They are all connected.

        If you’re going to blaze rhetoric and shoot your mouth off, at least know what you’re talking about.

        Here are the Cliff’s Notes.

        http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3512014.ece

      • Snickers

        Mary,
        When Indonesia can stop it’s internal nasty attrocities, than they have a right to call another country to judgment. I was born there and lived there, and frankly, that’s the pot calling the kettle black. Same goes for China and their human rights violations. And many other countries. It’s so easy to call out others and label their actions wrong.
        There have been lots of posts about returning this land to the Native Americans – that is a good point, however, the world has a history of conquest. Almost every civilization has been destroyed and its peoples uprooted and relocated (my family lost their country and were uprooted so I have an understanding of what that is like). Israel is defending herself while being attacked. Thousands of innocent lives are being affected and that is a bad thing for the whole world because we’re a global community. I’m not taking sides, BTW, I point out as so many have on this subject, why aren’t the oil-rich arabs helping Palestine to rebuild and thrive? And I have another question, in war, who decides the “disproportionate force.” I remember someone called Neville Chamberlain announcing “Peace with honor, peace in our time,” just before Hitler invaded Poland…

        • JulieD

          Well said Snickers.

          I’m sometimes interested in anecdotal evidence, so let’s examine:

          A friend of mine who was on the FBI’s Hostage Rescue team recounted his experience while providing security for General Tony Zinni, who was on a peace mission to Israel and Palestine during the Clinton Administration.

          So roughly 13 years ago (relevant – maybe if you’re a historian)…and then this:

          I asked him about the quality of Palestinian security personnel he met and was shocked by his answer. He described the Palestinians as far more professional than the Israelis–

          And then the typically astute LJ serves up this:

          they were well groomed, neat uniforms, handled weapons carefully, and showed respect for their chain of command. The Israelis security personnel, in contrast, were arrogant and sloppy.

          But just in case you aren’t a crew cut dry cleaned kind of guy there’s more!

          Or how about the Israeli pilots who were with a U.S. intelligence officer in an Arab country. Instead of maintaining a low profile they waved their Israeli passports around, tried to spend shekels, and can(sic) very close to getting whacked by the security forces in that country.

          Whacked for being … Jewish.

          And that is why I will support Israel.

          Because what is missing in LJ’s critique is the answer. So Snickers wins my vote.

          At least until someone comes up with the “perfect, crisp, clean” way to deal with folks trying to annihilate Jews.

          Even the sloppy Jews from 1996 deserve to live.

          • Idiocracy08

            Those people weren’t whacked. And all Jewish people deserve to live. In peace.

            This is an interesting piece. Written by Jews For Justice In The Middle East:
            http://www.cactus48.com/OriginMSW.pdf

            If you like anecdotal evidence, here are some quotes from it:

            “By 1948, the Jew was not only able to ‘defend himself’ but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, ‘in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes’…Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that ‘every skirmish ended in a
            massacre of Arabs.’” Norman Finkelstein, “Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.”

            and

            “Before [the Palestinians] very eyes we are possessing the land and the villages where they, and their ancestors, have lived…We are the generation of colonizers, and without the steel helmet and the gun barrel we cannot plant a tree and build a home.” Israeli leader Moshe Dayan, quoted in Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, “Original Sins: Reflections on the History of Zionism and Israel”

            and

            “[Ben-Gurion stated] ‘If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second -because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.’

            • JulieD

              The proof should be in testing LJ’s dares and threats throughout this blog in reverse, so here goes:

              Larry should drop you by helicopter into Gaza and have you go tell Hamas how happy you are to be a peace loving Jew and then count the seconds until you’re whacked.

    • Idiocracy08

      wow! they have the manpower and time to call ninety thousand homes before an attack…and all those Palestinians have phones. amazing!!!

      • Mary

        Those Palestinians don’t even have electricity, food, or medical supplies.

        If Israel is publicizing that they’re calling Palestinians to “warn” them to leave their homes, then Israel is VERY VERY VERY concerned that they’re losing the international public relations war.

        And they’re LYING.

        • Strawberrybitch

          Not to mention…WHERE THE FUCK ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO GO!!! They can’t leave without going through Israeli check points and if they don’t have the proper paper work they can’t go anywhere…UGH!!!!!! It takes hours to get through a check point on a good day with papers in order, but the CK points are all closed when shit like this goes down. Mary I swear these people have no clue as to how the innocent Palistinian people live day to day. Remember how Carter was lambasted for his last book?

          • orwelllives

            Gaza share a border with Egypt. I wish you people get some information before you comment.

            • WildChild

              Gaza residents on Sunday breached the border fence with Egypt in several places and hundreds have crossed the frontier prompting Egyptian border guards to open fire, said officials and witnesses on both sides of the border.

              http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050618.html

        • Emma

          The world is as you see it is an expression you may wish to contemplate.

    • rickrickrick

      I concur! Mr Johnson should be more respectful to those who don’t share or grasp his view(s). His behavior and the F Bomb he dropped was disperportionate to the comments.

  • bell’artista

    Duke of Marlboro

    Read “A Durable Peace” by Benjamin Netanyahu

    • the duke of marlboro

      I did, about five years ago, but I guess this would be a good time to review it.

      Thank you.

      • Mary

        Careful, Duke. Benjamin Netanyahu is Israel’s Dick Cheney. He is tied at the hip to the same neocons that falsified intel and took your country into Iraq.

        Not to mention that Netanyahu PROVIDED some of the exaggerated intel to Cheney et al , and that Cheney et al are supporting him in the upcoming November elections.

        Reliable? You decide.

        • the duke of marlboro

          I know, I agree with you about Netanyahu, (though I didn’t always think poorly of him).

          I read him anyway, I figure it’s best to gain a complete picture.

          • Mary

            “I figure it’s best to gain a complete picture.”

            What a great statement! Would that more Americans (and I am one, too) understood that there’s always 2 sides, and that history is very often written by the winners alone.

            I think Netanyahu knew which side his bread was buttered on, in terms of international power. I didn’t always think poorly of him, either, but after the last 8 years, I’ve “adjusted” many of my own assumptions, including trusting what politicians tell us is so, when it’s not.

            I do like your willingness to “gain a complete picture.”

            Bravo to you!

    • ritamary

      Netanyahu is certainly an unbiased source, right? As I commented the last time you recommended his book.

  • bell’artista

    Mary,
    what’s your point?

    • Mary

      Dear God. The fact that Israel has created a Warsaw Ghetto for the Palestinians, after their own history, doesn’t jolt your personal sense of irony or common decency?

      Bella, please don’t respond to any of my posts anymore.

      • bell’artista

        Mary ,
        I responded to exactly one of your posts.
        You really are not able to dictate my actions in a public forum.
        This is a public blog, and if there wasn’t public discussion and varying viewpoints, exactly what would one have at this blog……the blog owner’s pontification, whatever that might be on whatever subject?

        You have absolutely no right to request that I not respond if I am so moved to so.
        You are voicing an opinion in a public forum, as am I.

        If I respond because I believe and think that something you have said is inaccurate, I have every right to do so.On the other hand, if you wish not to respond, that is totally your call.

        • Mary

          Translation: What’s the Warsaw Ghetto?

          You find that out, Bella, and compare Gaza to same in a complete paragraph, and we’ll talk.

          Otherwise, I don’t have time to explain why the “opinions” you post are due to the propaganda you’ve been fed.

          Have a nice day.

          • orwelllives

            Yes Mary, the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto lobed missiles at the Germans. Isn’t this why WWII started? Oh, wait…

            • WildChild

              The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (German: “Aufstand im Warschauer Ghetto”, Polish: “Powstanie w getcie warszawskim”) was the Jewish insurgency that arose within the Warsaw Ghetto in German occupied Poland during World War II, and which opposed Nazi Germany’s effort to transport the remaining ghetto population to the Treblinka extermination camp.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

    • stodgie

      there is no point!

  • http://www.gratisnet.com bobbski

    ¨Most of my friends in the intelligence community, the military, and law enforcement agree on one word that best describes what Israel has become–arrogant.¨

    This is a surprise?

  • karen for Clinton (told you so)

    Neighborhood Bully
    Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man,
    His enemies say he’s on their land.
    They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
    He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
    He’s criticized and condemned for being alive.
    He’s not supposed to fight back, he’s supposed to have thick skin,
    He’s supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
    He’s wandered the earth an exiled man.
    Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
    He’s always on trial for just being born.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
    Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
    Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
    The bombs were meant for him.
    He was supposed to feel bad.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
    That he’ll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
    ‘Cause there’s a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
    And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    He got no allies to really speak of.
    What he gets he must pay for, he don’t get it out of love.
    He buys obsolete weapons and he won’t be denied
    But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
    They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
    Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly.
    To hurt one they would weep.
    They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone,
    Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
    He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
    In bed with nobody, under no one’s command.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
    No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
    He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
    Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    What’s anybody indebted to him for?
    Nothin’, they say.
    He just likes to cause war.
    Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
    They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

    What has he done to wear so many scars?
    Does he change the course of rivers?
    Does he pollute the moon and stars?
    Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
    Running out the clock, time standing still,
    Neighborhood bully.

  • karen for Clinton (told you so)

    Neighborhood Bully by Bob Dylan, 1983

    Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man,
    His enemies say he’s on their land.
    They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
    He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
    He’s criticized and condemned for being alive.
    He’s not supposed to fight back, he’s supposed to have thick skin,
    He’s supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
    He’s wandered the earth an exiled man.
    Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
    He’s always on trial for just being born.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
    Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
    Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
    The bombs were meant for him.
    He was supposed to feel bad.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
    That he’ll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
    ‘Cause there’s a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
    And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    He got no allies to really speak of.
    What he gets he must pay for, he don’t get it out of love.
    He buys obsolete weapons and he won’t be denied
    But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
    They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
    Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly.
    To hurt one they would weep.
    They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone,
    Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
    He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
    In bed with nobody, under no one’s command.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
    No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
    He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
    Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    What’s anybody indebted to him for?
    Nothin’, they say.
    He just likes to cause war.
    Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
    They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
    He’s the neighborhood bully.
    What has he done to wear so many scars?
    Does he change the course of rivers?
    Does he pollute the moon and stars?
    Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
    Running out the clock, time standing still,
    Neighborhood bully.

  • bell’artista

    Myth and Fact: The Creation of Hamas
    Dr. Mitchell Bard
    Mitchell Bard is the Executive Director of the nonprofit American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) and a foreign policy analyst who lectures frequently on U.S.-Middle East policy. Dr. Bard is also the director of the Jewish Virtual Library, the world’s most comprehensive online encyclopedia of Jewish history and culture.

    Myth:

    “Israel created Hamas.”

    Fact:

    Israel had nothing to do with the creation of Hamas. The The organization grew out of the ideology and practice of the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood movement that arose in Egypt in the 1920s.

    Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 as an Islamic Association by Sheikh Ahmad Yassin. Initially, the organization engaged primarily in social welfare activities and soon developed a reputation for improving the lives of Palestinians, particularly the refugees in the Gaza Strip.

    Though Hamas was committed from the outset to destroying Israel, it took the position that this was a goal for the future, and that the more immediate focus should be on winning the hearts and minds of the people through its charitable and educational activities. Its funding came primarily from Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

    The PLO was convinced that Israel was helping Hamas in the hope of triggering a civil war. Since Hamas did not engage in terror at first, Israel did not see it as a serious short-term threat, and some Israelis believed the rise of fundamentalism in Gaza would have the beneficial impact of weakening the PLO, and this is what ultimately happened.

    Hamas certainly didn’t believe it was being supported by Israel. As early as February 1988, the group put out a primer on how its members should behave if confronted by the Shin Bet. Several more instructional documents were distributed by Hamas to teach followers how to confront the Israelis and maintain secrecy.

    Israel’s assistance was more passive than active; that is, it did not interfere with Hamas activities or prevent funds from flowing into the organization from abroad. Israel also may have provided some funding to allow its security forces to infiltrate the organization. Meanwhile, Jordan was actively helping Hamas, with the aim of undermining the PLO and strengthening Jordanian influence in the territories.

    Though some Israelis were very concerned about Hamas before rioting began in December 1987, Israel was reluctant to interfere with an Islamic organization, fearing that it might trigger charges of violating the Palestinians’ freedom of religion. It was not until early in the intifada, when Hamas became actively involved in the violence, that the group began to be viewed as a potentially greater threat than the PLO. The turning point occurred in the summer of 1988 when Israel learned that Hamas was stockpiling arms to build an underground force and Hamas issued its covenant calling for the destruction of Israel. At this point it became clear that Hamas was not going to put off its jihad to liberate Palestine and was shifting its emphasis from charitable and educational activity to terrorism. Israel then began to crack down on Hamas and wiped out its entire command structure. Hamas has been waging a terror war against Israel ever since.

  • http://vbonnaire.wordpress.com vbonnaire

    Thank you for stating this as you have Larry. We have got to move the world towards PEACE. Anyone who came of age as an American feels this way. Our generation wanted to feed the world.

    John Lennon’s “Give Peace a Chance” was one of our anthems — and our whole generation is AWARE of the HORRORS of WWII. We were taught about these things in high school during the 70′s. We saw the films of what happened. Our generation would prefer to make a LASTING peace.

    We grew up with JFK and MLK’s values, and then we became DEMOCRATS maybe because we didn’t like Nixon post-Watergate.

    Everyone around the world needs to inform the world about why our generation KNOWS WAR is not the ANSWER — it is a last RESORT.

    The world is facing what is to come with GLOBAL WARMING and the climate change. We have NO CHOICE but to be diplomatic at this point.

    We are all in this together ON ONE PLANET. That is the reality, and that is why we need to plant the seeds of PEACE rather than WAR.

    Thank you Larry and thank god the world is calling for a ceasefire.

    To not have a stop to this?

    Just recall Japan. WE CAN NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN AGAIN. WE NEVER WANT WWIII. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER.

    NEVER.

    WAR IS HELL.

    PEACE COULD BE LIKE HEAVEN ON EARTH for all human beings on EARTH.

    • Hap Hazard

      I prefer to regard this as Isreal on a peace mission delivering much need high explosives to the poor destitute victims of Hamas, whose sole reason for being is to eradicate and annihilate Israel. At the behest of and involvement of Iran. So what is the point of cease fire, the “peace process” and other such BS?

  • ritamary

    Thank you, Larry, for bringing up this topic. I agree with you 100%.

  • Bob

    Israel is no damn good— Nothing more than cold bloodied killers— One day they will get what is coming to them but they will probable take the whole world with them.

    • Hap Hazard

      I would agree with this comment if you substituted “Iran and Hamas” for “Israel”

  • Hap Hazard

    Larry – I TOTALLY disagree with your premise, that Israel is being a bully. Even Obama has said that if his house where his girls sleep was being shelled that he wouldn’t hesitate to take out the perpetrator. Hamas launches bombs and rockets 24/7 and nobody here says squat about it, but now Israel is overreacting? I believe they never should have left Gaza in the first place.

  • the duke of marlboro

    You know, the “good guys” DO take advantage of stupid, self righteous, arrogant people.

    I guess ignorance is bliss.

  • Hap Hazard

    But the Palestinian people imprisoned in Gaza can make an interesting claim that they too have been herded into a confined geographical space and are surrounded by a hostile force. — Larry, I don’t believe that the Palestinian people are “imprisoned” in Gaza. For one thing, the “Palestinians” were given land in 1948 — Jordan. For another, the Palestinians there CHOSE to elect Hamas, which is a terrorist arm of Iran, and there are consequences to elections, just as we are about to see here.

    • larry Johnson

      Hap,
      I tell you what. Let’s dress you up like a Palestinian, drop you in Gaza, have you live there one month and then come out and tell us what a paradise it is. Of course you don’t have the courage for this.

      • Hap Hazard

        To the extent that people are in Gaza against their will I will agree with you, but the majority of folks who are there are there by choice and as part of a political movement. THe Israelis have leafleted the citizenry and have been targeting only ammo dumps and tunnels in which weapons are stored. I am not suggesting that it is a good thing that children and others have been victimized here, but I think there should be perspective, and the Israeli civilians are the ONLY target of Hamas, and that has been the case for years, as the rockets come out of Gaza.

        • WildChild

          I’m not exactly sure that the residents of a concentration camp can be termed there by their own choice or part of a political movement.

        • truthtelling007

          “To the extent that people are in Gaza against their will I will agree with you, but the majority of folks who are there are there by choice and as part of a political movement.”

          What are you smoking?
          Being somewhere by choice?
          If you are born and raised there, why isn’t that enough?
          Reducing a citizen down to a “part of a political movement” is simply bizarre.

          I have 3 great musician friends from Gaza who live in NYC right now. They want to return home but it isn’t safe. They aren’t terrorists, murderers, political activists, and they weren’t there are part of a “political movement”. In fact they hate Hamas more than Israel. But they are sick of Israel as a government and have Israeli friends who are also sick of the government.

          It is not wise policy to have a country off limits from criticism. Trust me on that, you do not want to have Israel become a state you can’t criticize for fear of being called an anti-semite.

          And screw every jackass who keeps doing so because you are actually doing more damage to creating allies for Israel with such narrow minded and unthinking garbage. Governments are of ordinary human beings filled with their bigotry and ambitions. Quit making them what they aren’t.

  • the duke of marlboro

    What effect would a comprehensive, TRUE analysis of Israel’s actions in the Middle East have on the US approach to the violence, there?

    (Looking at it objectively, that is, understanding the motives of men like Sharon and the Israeli neocons — would it give us a different understanding, allowing us new methods of resolution?)

    Does Israel instigate violence, needlessly, or purposely, NOT in it’s defense, it’s policies of pre-emptive attack furthering the chaos and destruction in the ME, harming it?

    (Though surely, it’s not as if the Israeli neocons have deliberately introduced a program of ethnic cleansing against the Arab populations, throughout the Middle East)…

  • justsomeone

    google: Hamas+Iran

  • Sonic Ninja Kitty

    Larry, thank you for this article. I learned a lot. I am shocked that so many people commenting seem to ‘know everything’. I wonder how many have lived or worked in Israel or Palestine (whichever is the opposite of what they are arguing for). Empathy would be nice. I am glad you mentioned the BBC and Palestinian children killed. We cannot turn a blind eye.

    It’s clear as a bell now why Hillary wasn’t chosen for VP.

    • Emma

      What you seemed to have learned Sonic is bias toward one side’s view . That will never create peace.How did you feel when you saw the innocent people killed on the streets of Israel by Palestinian suicide bombers? It seems you can easily turn a blind eye to that.

      • truthtelling007

        “bias toward one side’s view . That will never create peace.”

        Then why do you do it? are you against peace?

        You have expressed bias towards your own view at the loss of the other view…do not want peace?

        I am not afraid of the dialectic process where our views may really clash. But if you’ve simply decided Israel is the victim, (note: innocent civilians are innocent) and Palestinians are the “suicide bombers”…then you cannot participate in peace because you’ve chosen your biased view.

        You didn’t give the example of the innocent Palestinian mother who lost her house to a bulldozer because her nephew, who she cannot control, struck out at Israel. Or the other shellings, starvation, and humiliation that is suffered by Palestinians every damn day.

        I blame the Government of Israel and the US for these problems that affect BOTH sides of the equation. Blood spilled from a Jewish person in Sderot is no less valuable than blood spilled in Rafah.

        Have you turned a blind eye to the Palestinians because to you they are just “suicide bombers”?

        Have you ever even considered what causes a person to want to get to that point?

        Have you considered what must change in order that young men and women will focus on love, life and family instead of blowing themselves up?

        Well, I have considered it. And the consideration has shown that continuing to shell Gaza in the way Israel does with its chopper attacks, airstrikes, etc….WON’T GET IT.

        Have you ever seen footage of an Israeli attack?
        They are hardly discriminate in nature.
        Don’t give me bullshit about how “israel goes out of its way to protect innocent people”.

        If you want to talk about a blind eye…then lets talk about the blind eye being turned to Israel’s criminal actions.

      • Sonic Ninja Kitty

        Dear Emma,

        “How did [I] feel when you saw the innocent people killed on the streets of Israel by Palestinian suicide bombers?”

        Sickened and distressed. Does that answer your question?

        Seems you read your own bias into things.

  • Tony

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    Hit chat and then you may see all these radio stations hit plains radio network

  • http://www.dragondirt.org Dragondirt

    I can’t believe what I just read. What the heck do you expect Israel to do when over 6000 rockets have been shot into their land this past year?

    They have done every thing possible to attempt to create peace in that region. They pulled all of their citizens out of Gaza, attempted a cease fire and I believe didn’t act soon enought to stop the rocket attacks. Rabbi Meir Kahane would have made Gaza a parking lot a long time ago, G-d rest his soul.

    What would you do, Mr Johnson, if your city was being fired upon, day after day (regardless of the so called ‘accuracy’ of the missiles that are firing) if YOUR family was in danger in this respect? What would OUR government do if one of our cities was being bombarded with missiles over 50 times a day? And you call the Israeli government ‘arrogant?’ You have more than a few screws loose.

    Frankly, I feel Israel waited TOO long to respond to this. Larry, either you are an anti-semite, or just plain ignorant.

    Obviously, your first amendment rights afford you the right to spew your anti-Israeli hated on your blog, but in my opinion, your middle east opinions are far beyond relevant.

    So do us all a favor, keep dreaming up the next ‘August surprise’ that made your blog so famous. Keep dreaming up the next scam subject that will, in turn, keep the hits coming. Your opinions are as irrelevant as your ‘whitey’ tape.

    Regards,

    Jeff P.
    http://www.dragondirt.org

    • Idiocracy08

      They pulled all of their citizens out of Gaza,

      Not all…there are those illegal settlements.

    • truthtelling007

      Grow the fuck up.
      Coming from a piece of shit like you, who promotes Michael Savage and anti-immigration “peace through superior firepower” crap….anything a piece of shit like you says about Larry Johnson is a compliment.

      Your hatred for “Hit-lary” tells it all.
      Your spew on your own blog makes you an absolute fucking hypocrite to be calling Larry Johnson on anything.

      Go have fun with your hate monger Michael Savage and realize that you have no monopoly on views here shit head.

      “They have done every thing possible to attempt to create peace in that region. They pulled all of their citizens out of Gaza”

      Horseshit. They, Israel, haven’t “done everything” possible. They, like most bureaucracies, ebb and flow between peace and war. You make them out to be pious leaders and that shows your absolute ignorance. And “pulled all their citizens out of Gaza”….horse shit distraction. Israel promised to stop the settlement expansions in both Gaza and the West Bank and had settlers doing it anyway. This created more hatred between the camps and it was being endorsed by Sharon while the country said it wasn’t doing it.

      You cannot oppress a people and expect them to be docile.

      And last you vile piece of crap, taking a criticism of the country of Israel and twisting it into calling someone “anti-Semitic” is to insult the reality of anti-antisemitism that is occurring and real. You are a pedestrian idiot who needs to learn that your “peace through superior firepower” crap is the source of the conflicts in this world. You are a race baiter.

      only a coward says shit like “peace through superior firepower”
      what now you driveling Michael Savage suckup. Don’t have enough Mexicans to hate today?

      You’ve got a lot of nerve.

  • EWard

    Larry

    I respect your opinion and views. However, after listening to news reports from different sources there are many sides to this story.

    First, Hamas has expanded their rocket range to hit areas within 20 miles of Tel Aviv. Over 3,000 rockets were fired into Southern Israel and political pressure was building within the country to do something. According to a CS Monitor reporter named Mitnik, the missle attacks by Hamas are sending a message to the Palestians that they can take on the Israelis just as Hezbollah did in 2006.

    Second, Egypt wants to get rid of Hamas because of the chaos and turmoil in the Gaza that could easily breach Eygpt’s borders. Also, Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and Egypt has had its troubles with this group. Security experts agree that Egypt wants the Gaza to remain an Israeli problem.

    Third, the “scale” and “determination” of the IDF operation is to restore deterrence. Israel’s security was damaged when it withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, the Gaza in 2005, and Lebanon in 2006. Source: Stephen Cook- Council of Foreign Relations

    • TeakwoodKite

      How serious is Egypt if there reports of tunnels being “discovered” every week?

      Or the recent “breach” in the border with Egypt?

      Just askin…

  • Jay

    Looks like the neo-Nazi writer of this article is trying to justify 3 things:
    1. His neo-Nazi views.
    2. The Holocaust.
    3. Terror and murder of Jews.

    • the duke of marlboro

      You sound like a kook.

      Kooks are isolated, eventually, Israeli, or not.

  • EWard

    TeakwoodKite

    This is what I’m hearing in news reports -

    …There is a wide gulf between the leaders of Arab governments and citizens demonstrating in the streets especially the ones that receive their news from Arab television stations of Israelis shelling innocent civilians…

    …Eygptians do not trust Hamas because if the chaos crossed over into their country, it could spell the end of their government.

    …Both Syria and Jordan have remained silent about the conflict…..

    • TeakwoodKite

      It will be a difficult year ahead EWard.

      Thanks.

  • Mary

    Your opinion of Israel is of a piece with your very distinguisd nd accurate reports of whitry tapes andOctobe surprised.

  • beyond_words

    At least most of the world has it’s eyes finally opened to the plight of these people.

    What’s going on is truly sickening, these are defenseless woman and children being slaughtered where they sleep, stand, or hide. Over 1400! injured, that’s a massive number and with medical supplies now being witheld how many will not make it?

    Israel controls all movement in and out of that area, land, sea and air. The gaza strip is really nothing but a large concentration camp, no hope, no true freedom, no dignity.

    Whats being done to the Palestinians is the same terrorism we all abhor. Even the ones spared will be scarred, how do you escape the fear when living in such a populated urban area with massive 1000Lb ordinance being dropped all over the place around you. The trauma inflicted by that will last a long time with the young palestinians who survive this.

    I lay the blame on the murderous sect they elected (Hamas)as a gov’t who whose only purpose is to kill the israelis,and never will hold peace and love in their hearts. Since the place is basically locked down why cant they just invade and arrest/kill these militants and go from there? This overwhelming bombing campaign in such a densely populated area smacks of genocide to me.

    I guess this must be what Biden meant back in October with his “international crisis” comments? If so, thats kinda scary…

  • truthtelling007

    and to all of those “hands of Israel” folks who keep typing, “there are two sides to this story”…then tell me what Hamas’ view is, what is their side?

    I don’t support Hamas, but I’m fed up with the unconditional, unthinking, bullshit coming from people who keep their ideology in front of reason. The government of a people does not make it the voice of the people. Israel is not “the jewish people”. It is a state mostly of Jewish people. But there are so many who aren’t in Israel, and who aren’t even supporters of Israel in these actions. So cut the bullshit hands off crap.

    Larry Johnson is no anti-semite, and fuck anyone who says he is. You are the anti-intellectuals who wish to stay in ignorance then bully down those who don’t read your script. Well Larry won’t be bullied, I know damn sure I won’t, and I doubt all these other folks will either. So if you want to have an honest conversation, cut the “anti-semite” crap out because it doesn’t apply to anyone here thus far.

    The ADL got 3 emails from me this week complaining about the real anti-semites I deal with on YouTube. I’ve posted videos related to the Madoff scandal and have had 3 disgusting anti-semitic comments emailed in. SO to have this conversation compared to that crap..only serves to discredit anyone who compares the two.

    This is no different than race baiters who scream racism when there is none. It does more damage to progress in relations than help.

    • bert

      Well said truthtelling007!!!!

    • stodgie

      truthtelling- there are two sides to every story- period/paragraph! now you want folks to understand the situation for the other side and rightly so. ok, understanding of the israeli position is part of this situation. that is all a number on here have asked for and frankly it is my understanding that larry, while condemning israel’s bad decisions, does understand that there are two sides. do you?

      • truthtelling007

        No, you missed my whole point…the only side I ever read, hear about, know like the back of my hand is the Israeli side.

        Israel says they are defending themselves, we’ve read that over and over here…in reports, in print and video….

        WHAT IS THE OTHER SIDE to Israel’s point of view?

        I already know their view.
        I’m asking this as a rhetorical device to show that people cannot and will not argue FOR Hamas, or for their view, to validate their rocket attacks, or anything of the like. So…where is their view?

        and I’m not a “you folks”.
        I have my own independent questions and considerations.

        I keep reading that there are “two sides” and I keep reading a very loud one sided view here, all Israeli view. Larry’s whole article is still based on the Israeli view, even though he’s criticized it.

        There isn’t one validation in his post, or for others, of Hamas actions. Not one.

        I don’t have to validate them either, but if people are going to keep writing “two sides to every story” when they really only believe there is one side, “Israel is the victim, shut up, you stupid anti-semite” then there aren’t two sides.

  • Jay

    “Larry Johnson is no anti-semite” ?!?!

    Is the bombing of Afghanistan by the US a genocide?
    Is the bombing of Iraq by the US a genocide?
    Are these “professionals” (as clown Larry calls them) of the US military killed less civilians in Afghanistan or Iraq?

    Is Larry Johnson an expert or a clown?

    • the duke of marlboro

      WTF does this have to do with the subject at hand?

      Nothing, the situations aren’t even vaguely similar.

      Israel will fall, btw, if it doesn’t rid itself of its corrupt, and STUPID, neocons.

      Shot with its own gun, a suicide, and I dont think you understrand.

      Next up for Israel if it continues on it’s current political trajectory?

      The US will be able to cut military and financial aid, within 10 years, if not sooner.

      And then what?

      Israel is not the US, I can’t imagine what made them think they were as capable, and as strong, equal to America in its intelligence and military resources.

      • Idiocracy08

        Ariel Sharon said Israel controlled the US.

        If you take a look at our new chief of staff…I’m starting to believe it.

  • http://www.deathofthedemocraticparty.com xax

    In the King David Hotel bombing Irgun killed 91 people. Hamas, by contrast, has fired hundreds of rockets and mortars and has not killed a tenth of the people compared to the Irgun attack in 1946.

    That bothers me because it leaves the impression that because Hamas hasn’t racked up a similar body count that any of their actions are somehow less worse than the actions of Israeli terrorists. So while you say that you understand that it’s wrong for them to be firing rockets into Israel, your wording gives them justification.

    In fact this whole conflict is stupid to me. You worship the same God, let the sh*t go. With that being said, this whole Israel is doing to the Palestinians what was done to the Jews during WWII is nonsense.

    Last time I checked, Israel left the Gaza strip. There are a small band of them left, but even the Israeli government has told them to come back home because Israel will not defend them. Israel controls their border and will lock it down if they are being attacked. The other border is controlled by Egypt. Egypt locked it down. Egypt says it will not open it’s border unless Israel and Hamas stops their attacks. It’s evident Hamas won’t stop, so Israel won’t stop. Why is it Israel’s fault for Egypt closing their border? It’s not; it’s Egypt’s decision.

    You may think the response is too much, and that’s your opinion. But I’m getting tired of this whole Israel is a bully or Israel is bad line. No, they are not innocent in this, but they are no more to blame than the controlling regime in Gaza. With that, I don’t see how people can get so dang upset when they do what any sovereign government would do.

  • ford

    Many posters here need to get the history of Israel out and read it.
    I understand your view Larry, but I do not hear a solution.
    The behavior we see in the middle east and in this conflict with Israel and it’s neighbors is the result of wars and diplomacy so far. Many people have tried to stop these deaths, yet they continue.

    The Palestinians send people like Hamas, and Arafat to represent them, then they complain that nothing is going well….

    • Sonic Ninja Kitty

      I’m sure there are plenty of Palestinians who never wanted Hamas to represent them just as there are plenty of Americans who never wanted Obama to represent them.

      • the duke of marlboro

        And plenty of Israelis also victimized by this pathological, delusional neocon Israeli intransigence.

  • ford

    PS…kudos to the point of using the King David bombing to legitimize Hams. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and does not represent democracy. Hamas is already responsible for more than 91 deaths…where are you getting you body count from, Arafat’s ghost?

    • Idiocracy08

      I think he meant that Irgun (Jewish terrorists) bombed the King David hotel in Israel and killed 91 people in one night. You’re adding up Hamas’ killings.

      I don’t see how you could say he was legitimizing Hamas in anyway by saying that what Irgun did to the Brits is the same as what Hamas is doing to Israel. To me, he’s saying it’s wrong – just like what Irgun did.

      I can understand people getting upset here at the comments towards Israel, but where did all the love for Irgun come from? If you want to be taken seriously, you must admit they were a terrorist organization.

      I also noticed a sense of a connection in Larry’s statement that it was ok to elect Begin and negotiate with him and respect him as a leader – even though he was the head of a terrorist organization…but do not negotiate with Palestine because they had Arafat…now Hamas.

  • dani

    thanks for your insight, xax.

  • ford

    I agree with the viewpoint that the USA will be cutting aid to Israel under the Obama administration, that’s why I voted for McCain.
    Obama has enjoyed the friendship and financial support of many who are enemies of Israel, he was able to hide it though so first class lying about his record.
    I stand firm on the idea that anyone who supports Israel and voted for Obama has not learned the lessons of history.

  • the duke of marlboro

    There is a certain truth about Israeli military actions that affects the security of the United States, and the West.

    What type of simplistic arrogance leads one to think this is not recognized?

    Honestly, what does Israel think, the Pentagon is no more than Dick Cheney, an inferior to the IDF, to men like Netanyahu?

    Right there, Israel shows it’s lack of military expertise, you know?

    The idea Israel “commanded” the US was nothing but a fantasy.

    Ah, to navigate the serpentine of pathological delusion, Charlie don’t surf.

    Neither does Ben.

  • ford

    The solution of Palestine and it’s people being accepted into neighboring countries should be on the table, but nobdy wants them. Why is the USA responsible for this?

  • ford

    How about Palestine becoming part of Egypt?

    • Idiocracy08

      how about Palestine being Palestine?

  • the duke of marlboro

    How can there be any solution amid the chaos of a (formerly) well armed organized military power waging war, deliberately?

    Until Israel decidesd what it wants, it’s on it’s own, it would appear.

    • the duke of marlboro

      decides, sorry for the typo…

    • stodgie

      well duke you make a point there, but please include the neighboring countries in the solution. they haven’t done much about this but exploit it for years and more’s the pity.

      • Idiocracy08

        I don’t think either side wants peace. And I mean the politicians – not the civilians.

        If peace were to happen, where would all the support for Israel go? I mean I think they enjoy the fact that if anyone anywhere disagrees with them politically, they are an anti-semite – and we all the sudden inject some kind of guilt into the equation for all the suffering the Jews have had. Which we as Americans have nothing to feel guilty for, but we still see them as victims.

        If peace were to happen, would Hamas or any other terrorist organization be in control in the newly formed & regcognized state of Palestine – keeping all the money and supplies that come in for themselves and getting richer while the Palestinian people suffer more? The Palestinians wouldn’t need them and would probably resent organiztions like Hamas for making them suffer. As of now, some (not all) see them as their only hope…and as a revenge to Israel.

        No no no. That will not do. Every country has to have a boogeyman. Where would all the nationalism be if we didn’t have one?

        • stodgie

          idiocracy, there is much to what you say. first folks arise to meet the need and then they milk it for all it’s worth long after the need for them has passed. i always admired george washington for refusing to become more than what he was and going back to his home in virginia in order to let another be elected president. he served his country and not the other way around.

        • truthtelling007

          “I don’t think either side wants peace. And I mean the politicians – not the civilians.

          If peace were to happen, where would all the support for Israel go?”

          I completely agree with this.
          Grudges make great politics.

          But I’ve spent nearly 20 years working side by side with Israeli expats and Palestinians who get along here in the US no problem. They both despise their political leaders.

          This was a very clear comment, thank you.

          • Idiocracy08

            There is a good story about Jews living in Bahrain. There are about 30 Jews there, but they are happy. Here is a quote:
            http://haruth.com/jw/JewsBahrain.html

            “When I die, I hope to be buried here,” says Meir. “Our Jewish cemetery is very well kept, and it’s been here for over one hundred years. It is right next to the Christian cemetery, and the Shi’as cemetery is across the street from us. We live together and we rest in peace together, just the way it should be.”

  • mountainaires

    Thanks for the insight Larry, and I largely agree, and appreciate that you have the courage to bring it up, since it is an issue that elicits passionate opinions, which unfortunately are inevitably offensive to someone. Then moderators start editing and censoring, banning and silencing. The word “anti-semitism” always appears, and then the discussion takes a diversion into definitions of that; and then the conversation becomes chaos altogether until some moderator decides to edit or delete because they don’t like a comment…it’s always the same.

    To me, that silencing and censoring is more offensive than any opinion anyone could offer on either side of this issue. So, let the discussion begin, since you brought it up, and let the discussion actually take place.

    This is a complex issue, and it isn’t easily dissected, or discussed–for some people–without reductionist, simplistic slogans: Israel Good. Palestinians Terrorists. Or Israel Evil. Palestinians Freedom Fighters. Or whatever.

    One small suggestion in discussions of this issue:

    Don’t lump the Israeli people, or the Palestinian people in categories, because many Israelis oppose what the gov’t is doing, and many Palestinians just want to live their lives in peace, harvest their olives, or run a business, raise their families. Most Americans don’t want to be in a war in Iraq, either, and we don’t like being lumped in with warmongers in our government who waged it.

    [Caveat: Those of us who have served in the military never forget that the military is made up of ordinary people who believe in public service, and sacrifice for country. Therefore, I separate troops from government policy].

    The Iraqi people aren’t Al-Qaeda. The extremists win a propaganda war when language assumes that “the people” are Hamas; or “the people” are George Bush. We are not.

    Agendas in this issue are not easily identified either. For instance, Israel funded Hamas for years; Israel also has an election coming up; what better way to inflame nationalism than to wage a war with “Hamas to the bitter end,” which will likely come just after the election [how convenient]. Hamas is in a struggle with Fatah for public support; engaging Israel is a tactic to prove they are the defenders of Palestinians.

    This is a war based on propaganda from both sides–make that from all sides–because the larger Arab community exploits it as well for their own purposes. And, so does the US exploit the region for its own agendas.

    The US is not an honest broker in the region at all, since we continue to reject justice, and we continue to support militarist and political agendas. Some public officials have attempted to guide policy towards justice, and they are hindered in that effort by other political interests.

    So, basically, I would just hope that people who care make an effort to inform themselves. Read a few books. Read Avi Shlaim’s The Iron Wall, for instance. Read other historians. Someone mentioned Illan Pappe. Yes, good source. Read Amira Haas. Read Sara Roy. Because these writers are balanced, knowledgeable and can inform you on the larger pictures of both Israelis and Palestinians.

  • nycvoter

    I have to disagree with Larry on his post. It’s not the number of civilians killed in Israel by Hamas bombs it’s the daily terror it creates in the towns every day. That kids have anywhere from 10-30 seconds to take cover at any time during the day into bomb shelters. Of course Israel could carpet bomb all of Gaza, there is no question they have greater military power, and there are going to be more casulaties when Israel attacks but Hamas has been terrorizing the Israeli border cities for a year without stop. In addition, with the tunnels form Egypt they are getting farther ranging missles, so Israel needed to stop the continued spread of this threat.

    Considering Hamas locates it’s fighters embedded in town centers, and in schools, and hospitals, the fact that most of the dead are militants is a credit to the Israeli strike. The Palestinian people, need to come together to stop the terror, and elect leadership that wants to come to some two state solution (that does not obliterate Israel.. right of return) and to build there own society. Josh Marshal on TPM still talks about it being about the settlements, well Israel has shown that for peace it will dismantel settlements, but it’s not about settlments, it’s about destroying Israel or just continuing the figth so terrorists will continue to have something to do.

    Please don’t talk to me about appropriate response until you have your kids living under circumstances of those people in southern Israel. And don’t tell me it’s Israel’s fault when Hamas for the last two years could have helped to build a just society in Gaza that acted peacefully and could demand greater sovereignty by showing they would build a Palenstinian state along side Israel instead chose to terrorized their own citizens to keep the fight going.

    • the duke of marlboro

      Please don’t talk to me about appropriate response until you have your kids living under circumstances

      What good is a military, emotional response (and I’m really sorry about all the children being murdered, needlessly) when Israel seems to be contributing to it’s own problems, contributing to the problems in the ME, a part of the problem?

      They are the same as the American neocons, and they will lose the same, also.

      No getting around it, all the tired propoganda in the world can’t fix a mediocre, stupid, trolled general, and by extension, save the Israeli state.

      And that is a truth which must be faced if Israel is to survive.

  • mountainaires
  • mountainaires

    Informative and insightful article on Hamas…

    December 31, 2008

    We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas
    Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled

    William Sieghart

    Last week I was in Gaza. While I was there I met a group of 20 or so police officers who were undergoing a course in conflict management. They were eager to know whether foreigners felt safer since Hamas had taken over the Government? Indeed we did, we told them. Without doubt the past 18 months had seen a comparative calm on the streets of Gaza; no gunmen on the streets, no more kidnappings. They smiled with great pride and waved us goodbye.

    Less than a week later all of these men were dead, killed by an Israeli rocket at a graduation ceremony. Were they “dangerous Hamas militant gunmen”? No, they were unarmed police officers, public servants killed not in a “militant training camp” but in the same police station in the middle of Gaza City that had been used by the British, the Israelis and Fatah during their periods of rule there.

    This distinction is crucial because while the horrific scenes in Gaza and Israel play themselves out on our television screens, a war of words is being fought that is clouding our understanding of the realities on the ground.

    Who or what is Hamas, the movement that Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, would like to wipe out as though it were a virus? Why did it win the Palestinian elections and why does it allow rockets to be fired into Israel?

    The story of Hamas over the past three years reveals how the Israeli, US and UK governments’ misunderstanding of this Islamist movement has led us to the brutal and desperate situation that we are in now.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5420584.ece

  • http://vbonnaire.wordpress.com vbonnaire

    One of the reasons I read NQ is because of the people here. Larry is correct on HISTORY. If you are 80 and on this thread you have a lot of history that is “lived experience.”

    The boy next door to me went into this war after 9/11. He was maybe 14 when it happened. I am certain that it was his generations Pearl Harbor?

    My generation at age 14 was protesting Vietnam and the war. At that time we had television with 13 channels, and there wasn’t an internet or all of the electronic toys that we now have. So, those of us that are for PEACE who wanted Hillary had our reasons for that after the last eight years.

    Obama was not our choice maybe because we thought he would make war. McCain has tremendous service and history, plus he was a Veteran of Vietnam.

    The day after 9/11 I had two clients back to back as a therapist. The first was a veteran from Vietnam. You can imagine how he felt. He was about 56.

    My second client was from the Middle East. She was pregnant and about 35 or so. She had come here to seek asylum? You cannot imagine what holding the tension of the realities of these two people was in the aftermath of that event, as an American.

    The boy next door served twice and came home. I am not sure that anyone comes out of a war unscathed.
    It will take 30 years before the effects of 9/11 are known — but the terror of war? The scars left on a culture’s psyche like in psyche of the people in the area Larry has written about? Those scars will not be forgotten anytime soon.

    The premise of the book “Clash of Civilizations” is correct. You have the outcome (via history) of the globe itself. Since that area of the Middle East is ancient — far more ancient than we can imagine — the clashes seem to be around religious worldviews.

    I read in the wikipedia about the Hamas part, because I don’t understand the hatred towards the West. Is it because the world can see all of the world, now?

    Is it because that “neocon” mindset seems to care little for humanity itself? Is it because of greed and corruption? This is why I see it like the Crusades in our time. All any of us have is our place in World History to go on.

    As a therapist — if RAGE is at the top as the presenting “emotion” — usually a sea of tears is underneath that. So, what is “underneath” the RAGE?
    That is the question. That is the real question to be asking. And that can only be answered by a cultures history. I saw a documentary on part of that world on PBS last night. It seems that it is like David and Goliath? In the case of these “ancient” tribal peoples?

    So, the way I know the myth of David and Goliath was a little guy fighting an evil giant. I’m not even sure which religion that comes from — but — is it like that? Is the little oppressed group hurling a slingshot at what it sees as an evil giant?

    Is the West the perceived evil Giant? Is it the richer country next door?

    People like Larry and the writers here have vast knowledge of these things politically because of the times they have lived.

    When this war started I felt it would be like another Vietnam. The boy next door went to war for a cause and because he wanted to go to college. He wanted to be a policeman at 19. Now he is going to be a linguist. A boy is a boy whether in Gaza or here. Those bombings that are happening will shape an entire generation, just as they have here.

    When people whose parents suffered WWII are arrogant and full of rage where will it lead?

    Thanks all, for this place — and especially Larry for his writing…

  • Emma

    Israel being a bully? Let’s Get Another reality check.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1231/p09s02-coop.html

  • Emma

    So what all you people pointing fingers at Israel are saying is that the people of Israel’s suffering does not matter. Suicide bombers don’t matter. Personal responsibility by Palestinians does not matter. If there are any psychologist here perhaps a post should be written on the victim mentality that keeps people thinking they are oppressed. Hams has choices and it choose to hit Israel with missles promote hate toward Israel in Palestinian children, sacrifice its children glorify suicide bombers. These missles are not benign. It is obvious deep inside any one who thinks Israel is the terrorist and should be charged with war crimes has some serious issues about personal responsibility, self preservation, the nature of relationships. The deprivation of the Palestinian people is not Israel’s fault. This is like saying when the bully in the schoolyard beat you up repeatedly you are at fault if you don’t defend your self.

    • truthtelling007

      “So what all you people pointing fingers at Israel are saying is that the people of Israel’s suffering does not matter. Suicide bombers don’t matter. Personal responsibility by Palestinians does not matter.”

      No, that is what you are saying and stuffing in other people’s comments because you seem incapable of having this conversation.

      If you are so concerned with Psychologists, go to one and ask about your projection issues.

      The more effective way to look at the comments made by Larry J, and others, including myself, is that I hold Israel to be responsible for their actions as a “nation state” that is equipped with US paid for arsenal. That arsenal, under treaty, can only be used to defend.

      Israel has said it intends to “punish” Gaza. This is a violation of Geneva convention.

      So why am I saying Israel is who I hold accountable?

      When comparing Hamas to the state of Israel, Israel is much more powerful than Hamas, in firepower. To those who are given much power comes responsibility.

      In the case of Israel, the US, Britain, India, etc…we are major destructive forces in our own right and when we act out with anger instead of justice, the consequences are much more devastating.

      NOBODY here endorsed Hamas. That is bullshit that unthinking people like yourself bleat out when you can’t control our thoughts about your beloved Israel. I think Hamas are a bunch of hating assholes not much different than their Likkud counterparts. Fuck them both as far as I’m concerned.

      But not everyone in Gaza is Hamas supporter, and you’d be a liar to say they are.

      Restraint is required when you have power.

      My value system on this came from my kung fu teachers who would rip my shit apart if I told them I got into a fight. They’d question me harder than anyone about what my motivation was, what did I actually do, and was it necessary or was I showing off. Did my anger get a grip on me and did I over do it. Yes, often I over did it. Yes, many times I lost every valuable teaching they gave me about responsibility because I had decided this guy needed an asswhipping.

      This is the same value system I teach my kids and it works. If either of them experiences a bully in school, they know they have my support to end it. But they will get in trouble with me if they resort to certain retaliatory measures that demean themselves in the process.

      TWO WRONGS DON’T MAKE A RIGHT.
      Ever heard that?
      So you have successfully shown me and others that if Hamas fights dirty, which is the only way a non-nation state force will fight, then you think Israel can just do whatever it wants to stop the shelling? Sorry…that isn’t so. There is a legal requirement for restraint. And there are treaty obligations related to US equipment which Israel repeatedly violates.

      You have falsely assumed I choose either side.

      And last, the “deprivation of the Palestinian people’ IS INDEED ISRAEL’S DOING. If you need proof, just listen to Israeli leaders announce their plan to starve Gaza until it submits.

      You have presented a false metaphor:
      “his is like saying when the bully in the schoolyard beat you up repeatedly you are at fault if you don’t defend your self.”

      This is the same angle my Palestinian friends take about Israel. To them Israel is the bully because they have a military, they have the firepower, they have the checkpoints, they have the policies, and all the Palestinians have is their resistance to this crap.

      Too bad you and people like you don’t have a monopoly on reality because I’m in this world with you and don’t buy into your view on this in the slightest.

      Your whole post, and those like yours, insult the critics at levels that are so dishonest that you really have no credit left.
      “any one who thinks Israel is the terrorist and should be charged with war crimes has some serious issues about personal responsibility, self preservation, the nature of relationships”

      With qualifications like that…who could ever criticize Israel…fuck off.

      • truthtelling007

        one more quick note related to how my teachers grilled me after any fight:
        Never, not once, did I ever act like an idiot and believe they were defending my adversaries. I always knew that the criticism was to make me a more responsible fighting student. Only then would they teach me more.

        If the US held this sort of moral value in high regard, we’d be in a much different world. We must inspect what we expect.

    • mountainaires

      Emma, your assertions are breathtakingly assinine.

      Clearly, you are ignorant of the mountain of writing, analysis, and opinion from people inside Israel who dispute their government’s policies on Gaza.

      But aside from that shocking gap in your brain, you haven’t discovered the mountains of reporting on the fact that people are STARVING, children are dying of malnutrition, people are banned from getting to hospitals by IDF checkpoints and die there, even in childbirth in the back of ambulances which are forbidden to pass by Israeli Defense Forces.

      You are clearly ignorant of Israeli Defense Forces who are refusing to carry out their own government’s policies in the Palestinian Territories because they find the policies so horrendous.

      Palestinians are being systematically starved, can’t visit family, can’t go to jobs, can’t get to hospitals, cannot import products to sell or make, are defrauded of their own land by Israeli settlers, and are collectively imprisoned in a ghetto in Gaza.

      B’tselem, the Israeli Human Rights Organization reports on how the Israeli government is violating human rights of Palestinians.

  • http://vbonnaire.wordpress.com vbonnaire

    I left a huge comment Larry & Co. but I think it got lost — I just read something in the wiki about the Irgun the lady we see on TV defending this? Her parents were in that Irgun. This has deep historical roots dating from 1948. Here is that article. Now I really agree with Larry, after reading what Winston Churchill said. Thank god for the wikipedia. And for the humanitarians of this world. The world CANNOT have a repeat of WWII, ever again. Ever. Ever.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

    This is terrorist ideology on both sides — the wiki shows the history — that Larry has written about with that hotel. You are not going to believe this Irgun thing.

  • lanie

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  • http://360.yahoo.com/ommotherlifeforce fred heidrick

    abraham the schizophrenic heard voises in his head that told him that that land belonged to the isrealites. and the modern isrealites will kill any palastinian on the face of the earth to keep the land they stole.

    and yes people were [mentaly ill] back then also.

    hearing gods voice that tell you to kill others is not sanity

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