“Nowhere to run” + open thread

Finally Al Jazeera reporter gets a drop of Israeli reality.

Israel is acting in self defense. Hamas continues to fire rockets at Israel. Monday, they killed the mother of 4. Here’s the NYT article with an amazing photo of her funeral:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/31/world/middleeast/31israel.html?hp

Hamas stands in the way of peace and the US is pushing for the peace process. It makes sense that Israel would seek to defend itself against rocket attacks and also clear Hamas, the impediment to peace, out of the way. Israel is doing the US, the Palestinians, Egypt, and everyone else a favor so why shouldn’t the US give Israel the tools to win the peace?

Hamas is a proxy for Iran. If you don’t believe it, look it up.

The IDF phone 90,000 Gazan homes prior to the onset of the attacks:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1230456525700

Injured Gazans are trapped by Hamas and denied access to aid in Egypt and Israel. This article just mentions Israel but others say either Egypt or Hamas won’t allow Gazans access to care in Egypt.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3647744,00.html

Gaza is not lacking for humanitarian aid or medical supplies or equipment, either. Israel is regularly sending in aid despite the continued rocket barrage from Gaza.

For more, see:

http://www.partizane.com/node/549

Is the objective of the Israeli military to create more enemies?

It would seem that the “only” solution is the one used by the US military against the Indians during the “Indian Wars” — just kill ‘em all. Poison works. Starvation works — and if the natives sneak off the reservation — scalp ‘em and pay a high bounty for scalps.

But if that’s too slow — use the mass elimination methods. One would think in this modern era that there are very quick ways to eradicate unwanted populations — and thus remove any threat of future violence. The objective of a “clean” elimination of vermin is to avoid traumatizing the military personnel who must do this work.

Keep bombing the hell out of the caged vermin, and then herd them into holding areas — be sure to put your best creative thinkers to work with “solutions” on how to deal with the remains.

—————-

O.K. perhaps that was very much over the top — but with no clear objective I still after all these years cannot understand what the GOAL is of this continual pounding on the cage. One objective of the Israeli extremists is to rid their homeland of all objectionable type people (perhaps a few as servants might be helpful).

However — IF the roles were reversed — no one would be taking bets that the Palestinians wouldn’t be doing exactly the same thing to the weaker Israelis — and perhaps in a few years the roles WILL be reversed.

This reminds me of an adult dog beating up a puppy — That adult dog MAY be bigger today but next year that puppy may just remember and exact revenge.

Both sides are jerks in this Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

I’m on dial-up and can’t watch the video — but I’ve seen similar since this conflict is older than I am.

Non Jews trying to murder Jews. Jews reply to Arab kindness with more kindness.
When Jews were weak, Europeans attacked.
When Jews were weak, Arabs attacked.
When Jews are strong, Arabs attack.
Arabs get ass kicked and cry like little girls.

USA occupies Iraq and Afghanistan, are both Taliban and USA “jerks” ?

Ah, Jay perhaps a more proper view would be Semites trying to kill Semites. Palestinians are a Semitic people same as the Jews.

For all they know they’re all related. Ironic and tragic, no?

The hatred that has fermented in the Middle East for decades will not allow resolution!
When human beings are treated in a manner that would have animal rights activists going ballistic, there can be no reasonable dialogue!
In my opinion, there are many who find the status quo advantageous, and this latest uprising is to establish the “pecking order” with PEBO…it will be no surprise, to me anyway, how that works out!

Only Hours Before the Gaza Offensive, Hamas Discussed Negotiating With Israel

In the Dec. 29 issue of Le Figaro, French-Jewish author and longtime back-channel negotiator for the Israel-Palestine peace process Marek Halter reported about his private meeting on Dec. 26 with Khaled Meshaal, the head of Hamas living in exile in Damascus, Syria. The meeting took place only hours before Israel launched its offensive on Gaza.

Halter reported Meshaal’s message summarized as follows:

“The Franco-Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, the young soldier taken hostage [in Gaza] more than two years ago, is in good condition. He is and will be treated correctly. The Palestinian people are represented by Hamas, not the Palestinian Authority. What the P.A.’s President Abbas had been unable to get through negotiations, Hamas, for its part, will get through force. Hamas’ conditionalities have changed: Hamas is disposed to an agreement with Israel on the basis of Israel’s borders of June 4, 1967.”

Halter reminds readers that Hamas is at the top of the U.S. State Department’s and the EU’s list of terrorist organizations. However,

“The [Scriptural exegesis] midrash tells us that if Abel had talked to Cain, the latter might not have killed the former. I’ve always thought that one had to talk to one’s enemy. The word is the only weapon which is capable of stopping wars.”

Meshaal told Halter that he understands how much French President Sarkozy is preoccupied by Gilad Shalit’s situation. Hamas is ready to exchange Shalit for Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. Meshaal will transmit a letter of Shalit’s parents to their son. But Halter’s mission is not limited to negotiating the freedom of the Franco-Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Halter notes with great interest that Meshaal seeks a return to the 1967 borders.

“To speak of the 1967 borders, for a man who only months ago called for the total destruction of the Jewish state, is a breakthrough. How did he come to this point, after so many years…? I think the evolution of [Syrian President] Bashar al-Assad, his protector, played a major role in this turnaround: The Syrian President now is in favor of direct negotiations with Israel.”

Also on December 29, Turkish President Abdullah Gul condemned Israel’s attack on Gaza, taking special note of the fact that it puts a mess on the doorstep of the incoming Obama administration:

“I consider the latest incident irresponsible… The issue is not only between Israel and Palestine; it is an event which will lead to instability in the entire region. In addition, further irresponsibility is leaving such a Middle East to the new American administration. To be honest, I find this very meaningful.”

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan also condemned the massive Israeli air strikes on Gaza, as directly undermining Turkey’s efforts to mediate Israeli-Syrian peace talks. He was especially angry because the attacks took place only days after Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was in Ankara to discuss continued Turkish mediation with Syria.

On December 23, outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, met in Ankara, Turkey with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdogen, declaring that a peace deal between Syria and Israel could be quickly achieved, and should be a top priority. Syrian President Bashar Assad the same day said he was prepared to begin direct talks with Israel.

There is no credible threat of war against Israel. They have become so expert at playing the role of geopolitical pawns that they have no ability to think in terms of their peoples’ welfare. The disease is the imperial divide-and-conquer Sykes-Picot disorientation among the Israeli leadership.

The only “threat” to Israel is an outbreak of peace. After eight years of Cheney-Bush madness, there exists a genuine opportunity to achieve a peace agreement between Israel and Syria right away. And that Syria-Israel peace deal could immediately be followed by an agreement involving Lebanon. This would dramatically change the dynamic in the entire region, and would set conditions for a two-state solution between Israel and the Palestinians.

Anglo-Saudi collusion to foster international terrorism and other divide-and-conquer strategies must be brought into the sunlight. International terrorism financed through the combination of massive drug operations, under the table arms sales and money laundering, along with Saudi banks and “charities” needs to be exposed relentlessly.

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=80

http://www.opinion-maker.org/navigation.do?mode=showArticles&id=293

Here’s a great video you guys should ck out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWiXy55OHyY

Here’s a great video you guys should ck out–See what Uncle Jay has to say about 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWiXy55OHyY

Iraqis are blowing up Iraqis every day. “For all they know they’re all related.”

candymarl, R U retard?

Do you really believe that Israel has the manpower and time to dial up 90,000 homes before an attack…and that those 90,000 Palestinians had phones? And it says they waited until all left. Do you really find this plausible?

I’m gonna need a little more than internet links to opinions to believe this.

I refuse to read an article or believe in one that is written as an opinion, and which speaks about Ariel The Bulldozer Sharon forcing people to leave settlements.

This is a man who got the nickname from bulldozing homes/apartments in Gaza & West bank, helping to create these settlements. Illegal settlements.

Don’t give him a pat on the back for ending but SOME of the settlements, when he was on who help to create them.

I saw the people being made to leave the settlements. Yes, it was sad to me to a point. But I felt they never should have been there anyway. What gave them the right to be there in the first place? They were illegally there.

I also saw the bulldozers bulldozing homes, and aparatment buildings – creating more settlements in Gaza/West Bank. I saw an old woman going through the rubble of what was once her apartment, looking for her medication. That was more sad to me to watch because she wasn’t illegally there.

I also saw the building of a new illegal settlement. A couple from New York overseeing the building of their new home on Palestinian land, saying “This is OUR land”.

Here is the irony of your stupid statements, Jay:

Jesus probably looked more like Osama Bin Laden than he looked like you.
Both were Semites.

Try learning something, dear.

Well said, Idiocracy.

Some people believe anything that agrees with whatever they thought to begin with, with no concern/regard for why they might be manipulated in doing so.

Remember when our own government told us Saddam was throwing babies on the floor, after yanking them out of incubators?

It was all bullshit, never happened, but publicized just to get the American people to support Gulf War I to “save” Kuwait (who was, by the way, slant drilling into Iraq’s oil fields).

The young girl who told us that story?

She was the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the US, carefully coached by public relations firms on her story, and had never even been IN Iraq.

Half the stuff Ron posts is propaganda.

He just doesn’t know it.

Not to mention, that the Jerusalem paper Haaretz reports that Israel has been planning this aggression for 6 months.

Out of one side of their mouths, they speak of peace and compromise, while all the time secretly gathering locations to bomb when the time is right.

Gimme a frikkin break.

Stupid mary, I said nothing about semites.
I said Arabs attacked Jews when they were weak and when Jews are strong.
It was an answer to “Northwest rain” idiotic comment: “IF the roles were reversed”.
The “roles” were reversed, and the Arabs attacked Jews.
What’s the connection to semites, idiot?
Half of Israeli Jews look like Arabs.

Create more enemies? The world already hates Israel…just ask the UN. Why the hell should Israel give a flying %^&K what the rest of the world thinks now? Israel is protecting herself. People may not LIKE that or ACCEPT that, but too freakin’ bad. What would YOU do if you walked in their shoes? They are surrounded by countries that hate them and want them destroyed. Would YOU sit back and be destroyed? I think not and I don’t believe for one freakin’ second that anyone posting on this web site would either. It’s the same old double standard for Israel WHY? Everyone just needs to ask themselves WHY is it I expect Israel to let herself be annihilated when I wouldn’t allow the same for MY country and answer that question honestly.

This ynet article attempts to balance the reporting coming from Israel/Gaza: {ggrahme}

19:13 , 12.30.08
Talking Back

Rocket damage in Sderot Photo: Sderot Media Center

Answering Israel’s critics

Six cliches you are likely to hear constantly in the coming days, and why they’re false–

Yigal Walt

1) “Israel’s response in Gaza is disproportionate”

Since when is war a mathematical equation? The basic objective of any warring party is to inflict maximal damage on the enemy while minimizing its own casualties. Was there anything proportional about the US war in Iraq? Or about Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait for that matter? Or about Russia’s recent war against Georgia? Israel is doing exactly what any other country has done in the past. This is how war works.

Would a British citizen complain that “too few” British soldiers are being killed in Iraq? Probably not.

And on a more elementary note: Palestinian military inferiority is not an indication of moral superiority. Palestinian insistence on resorting to violence despite this military weakness is an indication of poor judgment perhaps – yet it is by no means an indication of moral virtue. Being militarily weak does not make the Palestinians right.

2) “But Qassams don’t kill”

Actually, Qassams do kill. Not too often, perhaps, but dozens of Israelis were killed and wounded by rocket fire in recent years. Moreover, at this time the Palestinians are firing long-range Grad rockets with even greater explosive power. Such rockets killed 2 Israelis Monday.

Yet beyond the casualty figures, the psychological damage caused as result of living under an ongoing rocket threat is immeasurable. Would anyone in the West agree to have their family live under constant rocket attacks and be regularly woken up by sirens in the middle of the night? Would anyone living under such conditions appreciate being told that “these rockets don’t kill?” Probably not.

3) “It’s all because of Israel’s siege. Israel should allow aid into Gaza.”

Israel has allowed goods into Gaza regularly throughout the “siege”. Palestinians have been able to complement these deliveries with supplies smuggled through hundreds of tunnels (of course, they would likely be able to bring in even more food had they not used the tunnels to smuggle in missiles).

The day before operation “Cast Lead” got underway, Israel allowed dozens of trucks carrying aid to enter the Strip. On Tuesday, another 100 trucks – double the normal number -are expected to enter Gaza after Defense Minister Barak approved the move.

In short, Israel is allowing aid into the Strip (but guess who has kept Gaza crossings mostly closed thus far? That’s right, Egypt).

4) “Why didn’t Israel just agree to renew the Gaza truce?”

First, what truce? Terror groups continued to fire rockets throughout the lull, even if somewhat infrequently, and even if the world didn’t seem to care too much. Nonetheless, Israel clearly declared that it is interested in extending the truce. Our top officials made it clear time and again.

Yet Hamas leaders clearly declared that the truce has ended on December 19th, and proceeded to bombard southern Israeli communities with dozens of rockets daily. In short, it is no wonder that even the Egyptians are blaming Hamas this time.

5) “But Hamas was elected democratically – why can’t Israel accept it?”

Although Hamas won the Palestinian elections, it took Gaza by force, in the process hurling rival Fatah members down to their death from high-rises and shooting others in the knees with the declared aim of maiming them. Some democracy.

In any case, Israel in fact “recognizes,” de facto, Hamas’ rule in Gaza, which is precisely why it is justified in attacking the Hamas-ruled Strip, recognizing that it is indeed being governed by a terror entity. Israel did not launch the operation because Hamas is in power there – rather, it did so because Hamas is a terrorist organization that has deliberately targeted civilians with thousands of rockets over the past 8 years.

6) “Israel is targeting civilians”

You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”

There are two options here: A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or B) Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Indeed, Israel goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world does this better than the Jewish State.
(end quote)
***********
{A personal observation: Do I believe my lying eyes?
Do I recall seeing Jewish settlers forcibly removed from their homes in both Gaza and the West Bank on many occasions? There was no “Palestine” before the 1948 partition. The imposed agreement gave Arab populations an unequal boost, allowing any immigrant who had been there for two years rights
to claim Palestinian citizenship. They stayed, they
multiplied, they lacked cohesion and leadership generally essential to a nation-state. They have never moved beyond that level, yet demand the status
of other viable, self-sustaining entities. The stronger Arab states use Palestine as a stick to beat Israel routinely. Look at the bigger picture to find solutions. I see the left/right nexus in play for global supremacy. This is not rocket science.}

I saw them removed too. But they were in homes that were in illegal settlements in Gaza & the West Bank. They should have never been there.

There was no Palestine before 1948? Are you kidding? The British Mandate was to split PALESTINE up?

Please take time to read this.
http://www.cactus48.com/OriginMSW.pdf
It is written by Jews For Justice in the Middle East.

“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs… As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of nonviolence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in “A Land of Two
Peoples” ed. Mendes-Flohr.

Hi there!

I’m new to the forum so I just wanted to say hi to everone!

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