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Pat Lang on Israel’s Gaza Misadventure

(Bumped up to New Year’s Day by Susan with a note that, if you read any writing, read Pat’s and Larry’s on this crisis. They know whereof they speak, as opposed to most TV talking heads. They also offer critical, rational views and facts without an emotional bias towards either side. Of Note: Pat’s style is to first quote from a news article, then add his commentary, as you will see below.)

Pat Lang is a dear friend and a brilliant scholar. He established the Arabic program at West Point, he headed up the Defense Intelligence Agency’s Middle East Division in the 1989-1991 timeframe, and he fought in combat in Vietnam. He is steeped in both politics and military strategies and tactics. When he writes (or speaks) one ought to listen. Here’s his latest:

More difficult than anticipated?

“Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the current, aerial phase of the operation was just “the first of several” that have been approved, an Olmert spokesman said.

But after four days of airstrikes against the symbols of Hamas power, there are few targets left beyond buildings evacuated days ago. On Tuesday, the biggest bomb load yet struck an empty Hamas government complex, as well as security installations and the home of a top militant commander. …

Three Palestinians were reported killed Tuesday, compared to dozens in previous days. Since the offensive began Saturday, 368 Palestinians have been killed. More than 1,700 have been hurt, according to Gaza health officials.

Palestinian militants, meanwhile, kept up their rocket assaults on Israeli border communities, despite relentless Israeli air attacks against Gaza’s Hamas rulers and unwelcome word from Egypt that it would not bail them out by ending its own blockade of Gaza crossings.

The question hanging over the Israeli operation is how it can halt rocket fire. Israel has never found a military solution to the barrage of missiles militants have fired into southern Israel.

Beyond delivering Hamas a deep blow and protecting border communities, the assault’s broader objectives remained cloudy. Israeli President Shimon Peres acknowledged the challenge, saying the operation was unavoidable but more difficult than many people anticipated.” Yahoo News

——————————————————————————

“More difficult than many people anticipated.” Say what? More difficult than anticipated by IDF General Staff Intelligence? If that is so, then things have really gone to hell in a hand basket in the Qirya. You used to do better work. Maybe it is the politicians who have imposed this “goat rope” on the IDF. Maybe.

Remember Lebanon in ’06. We all really know how well that went for the IDF (irony alert). In the Lebanon case the air power crowd succeeded in persuading the Israeli government that the Lebanese (in general) could be intimidated into accommodating the Likud/neocon/Bush program for Lebanon. That failed in spite of devastating air attacks on civilian infrastructure targets the length and breath of the country. Then, there was a half hearted air/ground effort to destroy Hizbullah’s forward positions and rocket firing capability. That proved impossible to do at any price that Israel was willing to pay. The net result was that Hizbullah became an exemplar for every Muslim enemy of Israel, an example of how the IDF can be defeated by brave and well prepared men. Politically, the ultimate result of ’06 was to make Hizbullah, and their Christian allies under General Aoun, the arbiters of events in Lebanon.

We have now seen the Israelis run through their target list in Gaza. Hamas is still firing at Ashkalon and Beersheba. One wonders just who has who by the testicles in this situation. If the Israelis back away with some sort of unilateral ceasefire, then the ’06 judgment of the Muslims on them will be confirmed in many minds. Thus far there are not enough ground troops “showing” in what the Israelis have brought to Gaza. These deployments are a mere threat. They will have to call forward many more units before the threat of a major ground operation becomes credible.

A major ground operation in Gaza may cause Hizbullah to resume hostilities from north of the Litani. This should be considered as a risk inherent in a ground operation in Gaza.

Muslim militiamen of the Hizbullah, Hamas, Jeish al-Mahdi, etc. varieties have a major advantage in fighting the Israelis. These Muslim fighters all believe in an afterlife in which they will be rewarded for their shihada, their testimony, their martyrdom in what they believe to be the path of God. If you do not think that they believe that then you are truly clueless. There are not many Israeli Jewish soldiers who think the same thing. Some, but not many. This makes for a wildly disparate attitude towards casualties. In Lebanon the Hizbullahis wore body armor and dug in well. They did that because these men were valuable assets, not because they were not willing to “be all they could be.”

“More difficult than many people anticipated.” Really? Were Feith and Wolfowitz involved in the planning? pl

I know some of the readers here are convinced I am an anti-semite who hates Israel because I dare to criticize its policies. One thing is certain in warfare–you do not achieve victory by simply beating the hell out of people or massacring millions. Hitler tried that and look at how that turned out. You must also eventually win the hearts and minds. You must split the people from those who want to use violence. The problem I have with what Israel is doing in Gaza is that instead of splitting the Palestinians from Hamas these tactics are likely to forge tighter linkages. If you think that result serves the long term interests of Israel then, to quote Pat Lang, “you are truly clueless.”

  • jwrjr

    A. Is Hamas really behind the rocket attacks? Or are they just the convenient scapegoats?
    B. “More difficult than anticipated”? A well educated child could have told the Israelis that the only thing that the air strikes would achieve is pissing off the actual terrorists.
    C. Israel refuses a “cease fire” for humanitarian purposes, and bush says that the lack of a “cease fire” is Hamas’ fault. What world is bush living in?

  • ritamary

    Thank you for speaking out, Pat Lang and Larry.

  • TeakwoodKite

    Thank you Larry and NQ for posting Pat Langs piece.

    Best Wishes to ya’ll in the coming new year.

  • Joel

    While your point about winning the heart of good people is correct, you do not take into account the limited patience a nation may have.

    To give an analogy, according to the same logic, no murderer should be punished if that upsets their mother. Right?

    It may be the case that weakening the Hamas will help the peaceful people there to regain power, thus gaining their support. It is related to your reference of Hitler. The Allied strategy was to remove that terrible leadership in order to let constructive people regain control.

  • dani

    Did we try to win the hearts and minds of the Japanese before bombing the crap out of them?

  • JozefAL

    Tell me, troll, how much of Japan did the US actually have under its control when we bombed “the crap out of” the Japanese?
    Do you now see how your analogy is not merely flawed but downright stupid?
    BUT, when the US DID occupy Japan FOLLOWING the war (and that “bombing the crap out of them” incident), the American policy WAS actually to win the hearts and minds of the people. How many times did the US bomb Japan FOLLOWING 1945, huh?
    Go learn some history before making asinine comments.

  • truthtelling007

    I don’t know about Larry, he’ll speak for himself, but I for one don’t need any lectures on “the limited patience a nation may have”. I’ve been fighting for Tibetans for years. The “limited patience” that they exhibit is breath taking. I’d never let that happen to my neighborhood.

    “To give an analogy, according to the same logic, no murderer should be punished if that upsets their mother. Right?”
    That makes no sense.

    The more appropriate analogy might be; the executioner starts getting off to offing the murderers. When you gain power or authority, you gain responsibility that isn’t found in those who have shown no responsibility. This has been demonstrated repeatedly in the necessary legal restraints on law enforcement, because…THEY WILL GO TOO FAR.

    But Larry’s point and I agree with it, is a very ancient battle wisdom, nothing new under the sun.

    Hostility can keep a fire going forever.
    You cannot win a war with “terrorists” with heavy handed self-validating attacks because all it will do is create more generational conflict. And we have seen in Ireland and Britain that we can come to peace accords with blood on our hands.

    Master Sun Tzu wasn’t bullshitting when he advised the Emperor in ways of war. He warned about how to avoid problems and undermine plots. He clearly demonstrated that noble responsible stewards of defense were much more effective that heavy handed emperors who created much resentment with their callous treatment of subjugated people.

    Israel has an opportunity to be at peace if when conflicting with Hamas, they don’t give into their own hatred. And people like yourself who say you care, should caution our Israeli brothers and sisters to watch the hatred in their hearts in spite of attacks. This is the oldest wisdom in the books.

    Nobody is saying, lay down and die, don’t defend, at least not here…
    But, I am saying, and I believe this is Larry’s point, Israel is constantly putting itself in a position that will only provoke further resentment by what has now become a stuck in the mud headstrong arrogance towards the human beings that live in Gaza and frankly, I’ll add, towards the human beings who live in Iran.

    Idiots here in the US are so conditioned to an “us v them” state that they can’t see the nuances that are critical in each culture and nation to create divisions and collections. What might divide your enemy is a key question each person should ask.

    Israel has policies in place that are creating more angry Palestinians. The US isn’t much different under GWBush. We created more resistance than we had by our arrogant power.

    I can tell you first hand that trying to beat me down only makes me more resistant. I’ve been through some shit most people could never think of, and time and time again, I was motivated to topple the asshole who was keeping me down, whether it was a “step” parent type, a boss, a company or random adversary. I would always try to be peaceful, but if I was screwed no matter what, I’d rely upon my inner resistance.

    Hamas preys on this inner anger. Israel validates it.
    Israel can only control Hamas’ manipulation of this, if Israel does one of two things:
    1. Consider what it does to stoke anger in Palestinians and work ever so diligently with compassion and consideration to get all people living in a humane and respectable condition.
    or
    2. Kill each and every child till there are no generations to remember your hatred towards them….

    Which is it going to be?
    I can tell you, Israel knows that inner resistance. It was build on it.

    Even if Israel dismantles Hamas, other resistance is inevitable if you consider the history of resistance. The Bohemians v the Romans, the people of Xiao v the Emperor, so many people against the Mongols and the Ottomans…resistance is our nature.

    If you love Israel stop the anti-semitic behavior towards Arabs and Palestinians. They too are the children of Shem, and yet are treated by many Americans like Germans treated Jews. Every one they see is a “terrorist” to these types of idiots.

    If you can’t distinguish your enemy, then you probably aren’t going to win the fight unless you kill everything in sight.
    If you can’t divide your enemy with influence and having the higher ground, then you aren’t going to win the fight unless you kill innocent could have been allies.
    If you are vain, your enemy can easily exploit your vanity.

    and These are the basics of warfare folks.

  • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

    Damn dude!!! That’s a full court three point bucket, all net. Wish I would have written. Happy New Year.

  • truthtelling007

    “ou do not take into account the limited patience a nation may have.”

    I don’t know about LJ, but I could lecture you for days on Tibetan patience and subjugation. Talk about “limited patience”.

    Your analogy does not fit this in the slightest way.

    There is no analogy necessary.

    Resistance is created by heavy handed techniques. It validates the image that Israel is the cause of Gaza’s problems. If you are a citizen in Gaza and you live in shit and squalor because your under occupation by Israel, what the hell is your motivation to get along with Israel?

    If you can’t understand and deal with the causes of this resistance, then you are just simply doomed to bury bodies. And it would be at least honest to give up all pretense.

    It is the oldest of militarist study to know how to deal with insurrection and resistance. The heavy handed Caesars were worse for Rome. The Emperors of China learned the same lessons under Master Sun Tzu. He taught about how a great militarist could undermine insurrection and resistance and one of the key ways was to make sure the people were well fed or looked after so they couldn’t be pissed off to begin with.

    This is the sort of problem Israel doesn’t want to be bothered with and the Evangelical/AIPAC Americans could care less about because Palestinians are simply dogs or “suicide bombers” to them.

    This sort of idiocy is now cyclical and won’t stop under the current actions. It is now generational.

    Get out your shovels if you aren’t going to open your heads.

  • the duke of marlboro

    You must split the people from those who want to use violence.

    I agree with you.

    I would also ask that we remember to split the Israeli people from their violent government, too.

    Almost a terrorist government, isn’t it?

  • the duke of marlboro

    Governments who have nothing else create war, sometimes as a matter of course, sometimes deliberately, a substitute for social and economic development.

    This current Israel will drag the US down with it, if the reasoning behind it’s actions aren’t truthfully analyzed.

    Israel is a young nation, it probably was ubnrealistic to expect it to BE like the West, unfortunately, it has denigrated, IMO, to a near terrorist state, a better armed mirror of it’s enemies.

    I just can’t see it surviving, for the long term, unless it adapts, and TOLERATES other, much like the US, or even Britain.

    Sometimes I have the impression Israel was never intended for a “Jewish” homeland, perhaps the goal was to integrate the peoples of the middle east into a nascent democracy of some sort, way back in ’46.

    But I could be way off, who knows?

  • Peggy Sue

    Excellent response, JozeAl.

    And btw, Dani, if you made that comment to my father, his brothers or my father-in-law, all of whom served in the Pacific theater, they would beat the crap out of you [though they're in they're mid to late 80s now].

    Jesus!

    As Joze said: go learn some damn history before making outrageous statements.

  • dani

    Peggy Sue

    And btw, Dani, if you made that comment to my father, his brothers or my father-in-law, all of whom served in the Pacific theater, they would beat the crap out of you [though they're in they're mid to late 80s now].

    Jesus!

    Peggy Sue – you’re right & JozeAl is correct. It was a stupid comment.

  • stodgie

    here’s a thought that occurred to me today and that is the law of unintended consequences. a group or person takes action but the results are nothing like we hoped. that seems to be the case with this latest conflict in the middle east. i believe that israel at one point had good intentions. a number of people on the other side have had good intentions also. so? the dark side of the cultures have gained control as was seen when the far right grabbed control of the white house with their figure head eight years ago. i wanted change and prayed for a new day. well we got change alright but not what i wanted at all.

  • the duke of marlboro

    Ah, tomorrow is another day, right?

    There is always hope.

  • Patrick Walker

    Even if Israel wins, they actually lose.

    We sure Hamas’ replacement will be any better? That chances of Fateh managing to reassert control are running about nil. Fateh’s attempted coup (backed by Washington and Tel Aviv) a couple years back still leaves a sour taste for many people in Gaza.

  • xax

    I can agree with the larger issue. Dropping bombs will strengthen their resolve. But here’s my issue:

    It seems that when dealing with groups like Hamas and such it doesn’t matter if you kiss their a** or blow them up; they still hate you.

    So what do you do? There is no reasoning with these groups. Case in point, Israel leaves the gaza strip, with execption to a few radicals, and it should have been over, but no. After the PA, PLO then Hamas took over and decided to drop rockets into Israel. Israel fires back. Now Israel’s the bad guy, or for some people, worse than Hamas. At least that’s the overall message I’m getting from multiple sources.

    We can all sit here and make judgements on whether Israel or Hamas or any of them is more wrong than the other, but in the end the a**holes won’t stop. I mean seriously what do you want Israel to do? Because it seems as if over the years, everyone has tried everything (from diplomacy to warfare) and the sh*t is still happening.

    All these jerks want is a bunch of dead jews. Their not fighting for anyone, any group, any message or any higher power. And the more outside sources play into their BS propaganda and continuously call on Isreal to show restraint, or beat Isreal up for using too much force, the more people are playing right into their hands. It seems so damn clear to me. As long as Israel is the de facto bad guy in some respect, thugs like Hamas become the heroes.

    If you guys will continuously post articles to convince us holdouts about how wrong you think Isreal is, at least post similar articles on Hamas. It’s not enough for a one sentence or one paragraph condemnation of Hamas, with several paragraphs condemning Isreal following it. It’s a nice cover, but it amounts to lip service and nothing more.

    I’m not saying Israel is the de facto good guy, I’m just tired of the crappy bias I see EVERYWHERE.

  • stodgie

    what would happen if the leaders in isreal woke up tomorrow morning and told hamas they could get everything they wanted? does anyone think peace would break out??? would that add fuel to the flame? would the usa be next as the ones that don’t like us are further assured that they gaining ground? please separate these questions from the judgments about israel and the troubles of the good people in gaza. i truly question if it would any good at all.

  • http://molvray.com/acid-test quixote

    xax: If Israel really had got out of Gaza and — in the Sun Tzu sense — the Gazans had been well fed and content, then it probably really would have been the end of the story.

    But the Israelis have blockaded Gaza. At this point, food, electricity, even water are in short supply. It takes hours to get from Point A to Point B when normally it would take 15 minutes. Also, most Gazans work(ed ) in Israel. There are no jobs in Gaza to speak of. The Israelis made it impossible to cross over for work, and unemployment skyrocketed. It’s something liken 40% or 80% or god-knows-what. Huge is the point. Because of the geography, an ambulance trying to reach a hospital might need to cross into Israel to get there. Also not allowed any more. All this keeps people on the bare edge of survival, and flies below US radar so we can’t see why the Gazans have to be so crazy aggressive.

    The only reason it’s on our radar now is that people are being shot at. I think the Israelis are trying to move the goalposts as far as they can before B0 comes in, since he’s not supposed to be as big a friend of Israel as, say, Shrub. That’s all. Bomb the Gazans back closer to the Stone Age while they can.

    (Like all the others hoping for a hand from B0, I think the Palestinians will be waiting for a cold day in hell.)

  • benny

    very well said, xax. and absolutely true.

  • steve

    In reference to the Israeli experience in ’06, a guy I like to read “The War Nerd,” has a nice article on that area.

    A Hezbollah Upon All of Thee!
    By Gary Brecher
    “…Hezbollah has great soldiers. That’s one reason I can’t help liking them. They’re some of the most underrated soldiers on earth facing what I consider the most overrated military force on earth, the IDF…”

    http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=8276&IBLOCK_ID=35

  • Peggy Sue

    Forgiven, Dani. I had a kneejerk reaction to your post [it's a family thing]. But hey, it’s a brand New Year.

    Happy 2009, for all of us!

  • orwelllives

    The US occupied Japan AFTER Japan SURRENDERED. When Hamas surrenders, Israelis should start worrying about winning Hearts and minds. Americans are lucky – There’s no American living today who’ve experienced a persistant assault by an enemy. 9/11 was the exception that proves the rule, being a one time event. This is why so many Americans, including ex-CIA, have a hard time understanding Israel’s behavior – they have no experience whatsoever of what it’s like to live under constant threat. Israel is a tiny speck on the world’s map. Its population is miniscule compared to the number of the Arabs/moslems who surround it. This is why it responds so forcefully to attacks on her. The situation right now is that one out of 10 Israelis lives within the range of Hamas missiles. In American terms it will be like 30 million citizens having their lives interrupted violently on a daily basis. No nation should have to endure such aggression. I believe most Americans in a similar situation will react just like Israel had. The sad paradox is that hundreds of thousands of people die in all kinds of conflicts all over the world (Darfur, Chechniya, etc.), and nobody seems to care. But as soon as Israel gets involved in something all of a sudden every body has an opinion and every body is an expert. This double standard and constant scrutiny of Israeli actions are the reason for the suspicion that underneath all the criticism lies plain old antisemitism. Criticism of Israel is fine – constant bashing is not, and this is, unfortunately, what we see in many of the comments here.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    stodgie, if the people of Gaza got everything they want, every Israeli would be dead.

    I don’t understand why anyone would think that Israel should provide employment or anything else to the Arabs. Why haven’t the Jordanians, Saudis, Syrians et al built commerce and a self sufficient community in Gaza? It wouldn’t support their hatred of Jews and their determination for total extermination.

  • stodgie

    thanks for your thoughts, ann. i just don’t see the tide of extremism will or could be stopped by being nice. it is a real problem. bush in my view took the wrong road after 9/11. he did some things right and even more wrong. the israelies have made mistakes no doubt as have the other side. voting hamas into power is a good example. i am hoping by asking questions that we might get off bashing both sides and talk about who the bad actors are and what is the best route to deal with them. at the end of the day that is the question the usa must consider.

  • orwelllives

    Yes, Hizzbullah (Party of God), are great, aren’t they, Steve? Kidnapping soldiers and murdering them in cold blood, showering missiles on civilians indiscriminately, hiding among civilians, using ambulances to transport weapons and fighters – such great guys! The thing I like the most about them is their Nazi style salute – very endearing. And let’s not forget the Marine Barracks in Beirut – this was also the work of Hizzbulah. Aren’t you just proud of them, Steve?!

  • truthtelling007

    “Criticism of Israel is fine – constant bashing is not, and this is, unfortunately, what we see in many of the comments here.”

    Oh bullshit. There isn’t a constant conversation about Israel here in the first place. Cut the hysteronics like we can’t think outside of American experiences.

    I’m not one got freaked out by 9/11.

    Israel has no plan for its occupied territories. That’s the fucking issue. Fuck your idea that there is a double standard. When you get that shit out of your head and pay attention to the comments instead of glossing over them as “bashing” you might fucking learn something.

    I wouldn’t be in a situation like Israel is in. And I wouldn’t tolerate the situation the Palestinians are in.

    Wanna talk about double standard…do you give a fuck about how Palestinians live their day to day lives, or is a Palestinian life worth nothing while you cry for Israel.

    Fuck your double standard.

  • steve

    Except when they come over & drink all the beer; don’t even throw in a few bucks.

  • orwelllives

    Wow. Such eloquence. Yes, I do care about the suffering of the people in Gaza. Unfortunately for them, the people they elected don’t give a damn about them. I wish they would rise and do something about it. Israel left Gaza in 2005. As of this moment there is ONE Israeli in Gaza – the kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit. All the Israeli settlers that used to live in Gaza were evacuated. They left behind state-of-the-art greenhouses. The Palestinians could have used them to grow food and make some money. They blew them up instead. The blockade that Israel imposed on Gaza was due to rocket attacks on Israeli towns within ISRAEL PROPER – not in the territories. These rocket attacks started as soon as Israel left and didn’t stop ever since. By the way, there’s no way for Israel to isolate Gaza completely, because Gaza shares a border with Egypt, not just with Israel. Hamas dug hundreds of tunnels on the border with egypt and used them to smuggle weapons. Hamas does not want peace with Israel – they want to destroy it. Read their charter, if you don’t believe me. And yes, the criticism of Israel is one sided. I don’t see people demonstrating all over the world about what the Russions are doing in Chechnia or what the Sudanese government is doing in Darfur. In both cases the violence against civilians is a lot worse than anything Israel is doing. I didn’t hear about any emergency meeting in the UN with regard to either one of these places, did you?

  • Idiocracy08

    Peggy Sue – you’re right & JozeAl is correct. It was a stupid comment.

    Thanks…I was going to remind you about a little something called Pearl Harbor.

  • justsomeone

    If Israel really wanted to punish Hamas they should of made sure the boat carrying relief supplies & CYNTHIA McKINNEY made land in Gaza & after all cargo, passengers/crew were safely on land, only then, should they have sunk the Dignity. CYNTHIA McKINNEY, Hamas’ one & only E.E.O.C female spokesperson.

  • Gary McGowan

    Here is the CNN video report on the Israeli ramming of the above-mentioned boat carrying relief supplies.

    http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/516.html

    On this same page is a most excellent video documentary on the attack on the USS Liberty in 1967, a story that all Americans should know, but unfortunately, few do. (It’s about 52 minutes

    May I add this? Brave young Israelis get sent to jail for refusing, as conscientious objectors, to participate in their government’s actions we are hearing and talking about. They ask you to listen, and they ask you to join in sending a letter to Israel’s Minister of Defense, Ehud Barak, both of which which you can do in a very few minutes at the link below.

    http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/509.html

    Thank you.

  • Idiocracy08

    Isreal says it was an accident…ooops!
    And LBJ said so too.

    But the people there, along with the video footage tell a different story. I believe our military men. I saw this in a documentary from the History or Discovery channel. Thanks for posting a link.

  • BernieO

    Hamas has already been strengthened by this. They had lost a lot of popularity but now the Palestinians’ support for them has grown and the blame is being placed on Israel. Hamas is a political organization so they depend on public approval which this retaliation has helped them regain. Not to mention anger at Israel is being flamed in the rest of the Arab world.

  • workingclass artist

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/01012009/news/columnists/bam_stirs_fears_in_israel_146762.htm?&page=0
    Thought this was an interesting article.
    I read that over 7000 missles have been launched by HAMAS toward Israel….Hmmmm…

  • workingclass artist

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/01012009/news/worldnews/planes_wipe_out_mosque_arsenal_146763.htm
    The only unifying principle to these Islamic jihadist militants comes in 2 forms.
    A hatred for all things Western. That means 1/2 of the planet.
    A hatred for non-muslims. This is the Crusades.

  • CentralMass

    When Israel gave up Gaza a couple of years ago, weren’t they rewarded with a border attack where one soldier was kidnapped and two killed? Wasn’t this followed by rockets being lobbed into Israel? Has the rocket fire stopped?

    If Israel could give up the entire country and move somewhere else, would it end?

  • Diana L. C.

    Here I am in a small town in Tennessee, of all places, on New Year’s Day catching up on my reading of the news. I have spent five glorious, peaceful, fun days helping my daughter-in-law pick out all the things that she will need when my first grandchild is born (due April 7). My grandchild will be half American of German from Russia descent and half Turkish, as my daughter-in-law was born and raised in Istanbul (so imagine the patience she has developed living in smalltown Tennessee).

    I have no comment either way about this horrible conflict in the Gaza. I understand both points of view.

    Again, though, as a mother, aunt, and soon-to-be grandmother, I just want to have people experience peace. It makes me sad.

    My own dogs are from Iran, having been rescued and brought to the U.S. as their wonderful Iranian family sought asylum in Canada. The Best Friends organization had helped their previous “mother” start the first animal shelter in Iran. That shelter has just now been accepted in the WSPCA organization.

    Best Friends also helped the young Lebanese women who were running the animal shelter in that country with their own money start over after Israel mistakenly destroyed their shelter during the ’06 conflict. They brought over 300 animals here to find homes so those women could concentrate on rebuilding and not on the daunting task of finding a way to house and feed those animals.

    I guess the point I am making is that we must always think in personal terms so that we do not view other humans from whatever religious tradition or ethnic tradition as “other” than we our under the skin.

    I see this attitude in the animal rights movement. No one finds Iranian dogs or cats to be worse or less deserving of life than Israeli dogs or cats. I see this attitude in the medical and other relief organizations.

    I just pray that the “dove” of peace would finally settle into the hearts of the leaders of Hamas, Israel, Iran, the U.S. and any other country of the world.

    I pray that all mothers everywhere raise their children to work in the relief organizations the animal rights movement and the evironmental protection movements.

    That’s always the only answer I come up with. It won’t happen in my lifetime, I know, but it is nice to imagine.

  • mountainaires

    What has and is occurring is nothing short of a war crime, yet the Israeli public relations machine is in full-swing, churning out lies by the minute.

    Once and for all it is time to expose the myths that they have created.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mustafa-barghouthi/palestines-guernica-and-t_b_153958.html

  • stodgie

    diana, i have a friend who has a rescue cat from turkey. i’ll have to ask her the background story next time we talk. imagine coming half the world away for a home!

  • stodgie

    so my point is no matter what we do, we still have a problem with extremists. the countries in the middle east sitting on their backsides need to get off it and do something worthwhile. frankly for years they left it to israel to take the hard unpopular stands. please note i don’t include the 06 or 08 disasters into that comment.

    they are afraid of these folks also. after all moderate leaders on BOTH SIDES have been killed by the extremists. i would like all the bashers on both sides to dang well remember that today.

  • Texas Playwright

    Israel/Palestine conflict is my next area of citizen research. Thanks to Larry, mods and bloggers who voice facts and opinions. HRC will educate the American voter as SOS just as well as she did as the true presidential winner.

  • Diana L. C.

    Yes, the kitties and dogs in Turkey need lots of help. Recently some Turkish people have begun to see the need for animal control and spaying and neutering. My daughter-in-law is highly educated, but she is so frightened of dogs and cats she cannot yet bring herself to get near one. There are always stories of feral dog packs attacking people in Turkey, and the feral cats in the streets of Istanbul just broke my heart. Most people weren’t mean to them, but they kept their distances from them because they feared disease.

    It is sadly the same in Greece. I have not been other places in that part of the world, but I know from reading the animal rights literature that it is extremely bad for the cats and dogs.

  • stodgie

    and the other side, hamas, isn’t putting out lies and threats against the west in general???????? it is all one sided? right, yeah, sure! that won’t get peace in the middle east ever! both sides are at fault. deal with that! no doubt the pain and suffering of the other side is not acceptable. i agree totally with you on that.

  • mountainaires
  • stodgie

    you know steve, using common sense can be quite helpful on these issues. the fighters for hezbollah aren’t your friends or the west in general. they are equal opportunity haters. i am not defending the mistakes that israel has made. no way! i also was and am disgusted about the wall, the liberty, etc. but i do understand that these folks hate me also and you too by the way.

  • stodgie

    thanks for that. and the light in my head just went off. i have to depart and feed the outside kitties.

  • workingclass artist

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733129053&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
    thought you might find this interesting Stodgie.
    Truth is…other Arab countries have sought to keep it in the back yard of Israel…But that game won’t work anymore…imho…
    This JIHAD is a War on the West..Aaaand any country defined as “Pro Western” in the eyes of Islamist Jihadists.

  • mountainaires

    Annie, I would caution you to inform yourself before issuing such sweeping statements as this:

    if the people of Gaza got everything they want, every Israeli would be dead

    There are 1.5 million people imprisoned for years in a Gaza Ghetto, refused food, medical supplies, and commerce with outside entities by Israel. Their children are dying from malnutrition, there are no jobs because no trade is allowed. They now have no heat, because Israel is preventing heating oil. The vast majority of these victims are not political, are not in Hamas, and have no control over Hamas. Yet, their children are dying. What Israel has done in Gaza is create another Warsaw ghetto, using propaganda about Hamas, much like Hitler did in Germany about the Jews.

    Don’t be ignorant about Palestinians, or assert such blatant bigotry about them. They are a wonderful people, and don’t deserve what has happened to them. There are Jewish writers, historians and journalists who would tell you this, some of whom have lived in Gaza for years.

  • workingclass artist

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1230733118401
    a great editorial from a thoughtful Muslim writer.
    provocative indeed…

  • the duke of marlboro

    Hamas is hardly a military power on par with Israel.

    It’s no different from the Iraqis launching bombs at the US troops.

    Yet the US has managed not to let Iraq denigrate into this delusional, internecine
    prop show so popular with the Israeli neocons.

  • workingclass artist

    HAMAS is the elected controlling authority in the Gazan territory…Right?
    As such they enact what is defined as acts of aggression and yet Israel is expected to just take it?…(eyes rolling here)

  • the duke of marlboro

    Actaully, ISrael fights its wars one way, and the US fights its wars another way.

    Israel is not the Pentagon — if it was, the US would have lost all position, having been isolated by the rest of the world strategically, and diplomatically, _ surrendering its superpower position.

    Greater thing I see from all of this is the IDF can’t fight, or win, a war.

    Cheney’s neocons lost, and the Israeli necons are losing, too, past the PR.

    Israel is dying, and will continue to die, much like the US under Cheney, and Bush, until it moves away from the Sharon thinking.

  • mountainaires

    Stodgie, your response is not only ridiculous, but intellectually dishonest. No one said propaganda is not a tool used by Hamas. So, your reactionary response is nothing but a straw man. Mustafa Barghouti is not in Hamas, doesn’t support Hamas; why would you immediately conclude that Barghouti’s op-ed has anything to do with Hamas? It is entirely the point that propaganda from Israel has distorted much of the discussion and understanding of the issue at all; that doesn’t absolve Hamas of its own propaganda. This isn’t a zero-sum game as you apparently believe.

  • workingclass artist

    I beg to differ…Duke.

  • JulieD

    You lose all credibility when you link to Huffington’s site.

    What’s next – pearls of wisdom from the Rev. Wright?

  • Steve1

    Please don’t confuse Steve with me! The Israeli, Palestinian conflict, runs deep. When they are ready to stele-they will stelle it! We, can only look for solutions to this very complex issue. Meanwhile, as always, innocents will died. Sad, very sad. I will not presume to be an expect on this matter- don’t want to be judgemental, thank God, my family and me don’t have to live with the threat of death, everyday!

  • Steve1

    settle!

  • the duke of marlboro

    Ok, we will have to disagree on this, I stand by my opinion.

  • Steve1

    Hey, I like LBJ-!

  • the duke of marlboro

    It’s interesting to draw parallels between the neocons in Washington, and Israel, militarily.

    Food for thought, the neocons LOST, and LOST big, bubbled as the Israeli neocons are, we, in the US, are fortunate in that we can rid ourselves of unworkable, losing strategy, and ideology.

  • Steve1

    Texas, I second that opinion! Can we all imagine what Barry Soetoro would do? Lets sit down and uhmmmm, talk! “Can’t we all just get along?” Yeah. right! When the Israelis and Arabs decide to settle this issue-it will get settled! I’m sure outside powers are keeping this kettle, hot. It benefits them. Meanwhile, as always, the innocent suffer.

  • mountainaires

    Sure, JulieD, I understand. I hate HuffPoo too. But it doesn’t undermine my credibility in the least to link to a very credible op-ed which is located there, so your assertion is ludicrous. You only expose your own ignorance by making such assertions, because it is the always the first tactic of fools who have nothing of value to say, to attack a source instead of the content of the opinion.

    The issue is bigger than your small mind can grasp, I see, but that shouldn’t stop you from indulging in your childish games. By all means, continue to remain an adolescent.

    You lose.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-brooks1-2009jan01,0,5374131.column

  • the duke of marlboro

    I dont read Huff Post either, I’d just as soon go to DK.

    But I dont’ reject what I deem truth simply because either site published the information.

    But then, you’re only as good as your abilty to analyze, I suppose.

    Even Israel, go figure.

  • smitty

    Isreal did not creat this situation in Gaza. They withdrew as they were asked to do by the US and were immediately attacked by the terrorists. They put up with it for a long time, building bomb shelters to protect their citizens from bombardment. They continued to provide electricity and open borders so that food and supplies could be sent through and people could go to work. Even now they offer medical care to Palestinians who need it. If the people in Gaza are suffering, it is the fault of their own terrorist leadership who have done nothing except try to destroy Israel. They are allowing their people to suffer just because of their own evil agenda. Why hasn’t the Arab word, wchic is sitting on billions of gallons of oil and treasure helped these people. Why has Egypt which occupies the other border with Gaza built a wall so that they cannot get in and gives them no aid. They don’t want to deal with the terrorist Hamas.
    Israel is smaller than the state of New Jersey. Why do the Muslims need that little piece of land. They have the whole Middle East to live in. Israel is justified in protecting it’s citizens and no other country would do less. When Israel was fomed in 1948, the land was little more than a piece of dry desert, but the citizens set to work and made it into a decent little country. The people living in Gaza could do the same if thir agenda was not death and destruction and nothing else.

  • workingclass artist

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230456537121&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
    It seems that other folks disagree with you Duke.
    Either Pro-Western countries deal with this widening issue or they ignore it at their own peril.

  • the duke of marlboro

    Doesn’t matter whether they disagree, I stand by my opinion.

    War by popular opinion?

    You’re kidding, right?

  • workingclass artist

    Good questions Smitty.

  • the duke of marlboro

    I think it’s naive to think the nations of the world don’t analyze and judge Israeli capabilities and weaknesees as they would any other army, taking an objective view.

    If the middle east is indeed a battle ground in the greater cold, asymmetric war, why would America turn a blind eye to a country that may be hurting it’s world wide strategic position?

    That would be unprofessional, now, wouldn’t it, unworthy of the Pentagon.

  • workingclass artist

    Hmmmm…I see a bigger picture perhaps…a srategy or counter offensive….or backlash…
    Militant Islamo-jihadism may have peaked…We shall see.
    Folks in Europe will get tired of it….Nuff said…

  • workingclass artist
  • mountainaires

    Taba. T…A…B…A.

    http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2008/12/brzezinski_says_1/

    The Israelis walked out on the agreement at Taba. The borders were agreed ['67 borders]. Israel could have had peace; the Palestinians and the Israelis had an agreement. But the Israelis walked out because an election was coming up and Barak couldn’t be seen to be giving up anything just before the election. What the Israeli government wants is Palestinian Land. That is the entire point. The settlements were the means to do it.

    Now, another election is coming up. And, Israel’s attack is all about being “tough” to win an election. They are slaughtering Palestinians to win an election.

    Yet some people demand that the Palestinians stand up and throw out their democratically elected government–Hamas–do they even think about what they are saying?

    Did the American people stand up in righteous indignation when our government invaded Iraq in March, 2003, using propaganda and lies to further their political agenda? Nope. George W. Bush was re-elected!

    Why are the Palestinians–ordinary Palestinians, 1.5 million of whom are imprisoned in the Gaza Ghetto by Israel–required to do something the American people never did?

    It’s the hypocrisy, stupid…

  • workingclass artist

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/12/netherlands-big.html
    interesting…The Netherlands just might see the light?

  • bert

    I am sooooo glad you bumped this up, Susan as it is the perfect place to link to the following interactive map.

    There was a vigorous debate on Larry’s comments yesterday about the new flare-up over the Gaza strip. The debate centered on why we created the state of Israel in the middle of Palestine and who was there first, Palestine or Israel. It took me a while yesterday to find this map in my convoluted and crazy file system.

    This ever changing map of the Middle East region, illustrates how various “empires” have risen and fallen in the past 5000 years – and in only just 90 seconds!

    It is a real eye-opener.

    http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf

  • mountainaires

    The Truth About Those Hamas Rockets

    By Dennis Rahkonen

    Five years ago, the Bush administration lied about weapons of mass destruction to dupe us into supporting an illegal, immoral invasion of Iraq. A few days ago, Israel trotted out only an infinitesimally more credible excuse — the Hamas rockets case — as justification for its own murderous shock and awe in Gaza.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21596.htm

    ===

    So What Have The Palestinians Got To Complain About?

    To portray this as a conflict between equals requires some imagination

    By Mark Steel

    Condoleezza Rice, having observed that more than 300 Gazans were dead, said: “We are deeply concerned about the escalating violence. We strongly condemn the attacks on Israel and hold Hamas responsible.” Someone should ask her to comment on teenage knife-crime, to see if she’d say: “I strongly condemn the people who’ve been stabbed, and until they abandon their practice of wandering around clutching their sides and bleeding, there is no hope for peace.”
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21595.htm

    ===

    Gaza death toll rises to 399; 1925 injured:

    A Palestinian medic was killed and two others wounded when a missile struck next to their ambulance east of Gaza City, Palestinians said.
    http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=80082§ionid=351020202

    ===

    UN: 25% of those killed in Gaza civilians:

    “A minimum of 25% of all those killed are civilians and it may well be far higher,” UNRWA spokesman Christopher Gunness told AFP.
    http://tinyurl.com/9mxhn9

    ===

    Hospital in Gaza City Engulfed by Suffering:

    Rawiya Ayad lay in a bed on the ground floor of Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital on Tuesday, connected to a respirator. A bandage covered her head, and dried blood scarred her face. Shrapnel from an Israeli airstrike was embedded in her brain, poisoning her blood. She was in a coma.
    http://tinyurl.com/8bmqjq

    ===

    UN Security Council fails to pass anti-Israel resolution, again:

    The US, a permanent UNSC member holding veto power, has been quick to remove the circulated draft on accounts that it was ‘unbalanced’ as it did not condemn the Palestinian Hamas.
    http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=80098§ionid=351020202

    ===

    Israel ordered to let international media into Gaza:

    Israel’s supreme court today ordered the government to allow the international media into Gaza to report on the effect of the air strikes on Palestinians.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/31/israelandthepalestinians-middleeast2

    ===

    How Hypocrisy on ‘Terrorism’ Kills

    By Robert Parry

    Israel, a nation that was born out of Zionist terrorism, has launched massive airstrikes against targets in Gaza using high-tech weapons produced by the United States, a country that often has aided and abetted terrorism by its client military forces, such as Chile’s Operation Condor and the Nicaraguan contras, and even today harbors right-wing Cuban terrorists implicated in blowing up a civilian airliner.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21597.htm

    ===

    Gazans Fight Cold and Hunger as Supplies Run Dry

    By Azmi Keshawi in Bureij, Gaza Strip

    Their windows smashed in the dead of winter by bomb blasts, Jihad Hamed, his wife and seven children huddle together every night in one bedroom of their freezing house, trying to keep warm and as far away as possible from the next explosion, wherever it might come from.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21590.htm

    ===

    Stop US Money Going To Israel

    US Military Aid Underpins Gaza Offensive

    1 Minute Video

    Israel receives billions of dollars in military aid from the US each year, much of it spent on American weaponry which US law says must only be used in self-defence. But experts say there is little chance of cuts in aid to Israel despite its military operation in Gaza.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21591.htm

  • NoTrollZone

    Thanks Larry. The rise of Islamic Fundamentalism is also an issue of concern. Human rights are threatened by IF. Israel’s handling of this incident will fuel those pushing IF. It is an issue for all of us. Atrocities lead to atrocities.
    I cannot imagine what Israel is thinking.

    Does Israel think that they and the Palestinians exist in a vacuum? That this is their war alone? That all other players will sit back and watch it unfold? Is Israel unmindful of where it sits geographically– who it’s neighbors are? Does it think– render the Palestinians harmless- and all will be well?

    And what in the world is the plan that the Israeli’s are following? What do they see as endgame?

    Strategically, tactically, philosophically, on any analysis, Israel seems to be off the mark.

    The only country’s “leadership” saying the weight of the conflict is on the Palestinians shoulders is the Bush one. Certainly if Bush is the only one agreeing with you, shouldn’t you rethink your actions and policies?

  • workingclass artist

    thanks Bert…Great source.

  • the duke of marlboro

    So do I.

    I dont assume Israeli and American parity.

    The neocons, and apparently, the Israelis, do.

  • benny

    neo-cons??? lol. Israel is striving to exist. period. And they are doing what they think is right for them.

    This isn’t your political neo-con and progressive games.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    I am not against the Palestinian people. How many times do you have to be told that the aim of all Arabs is to “drive the Jews into the sea”? When people continually repeat those threats, I believe them. How many rockets from Gaza are too many? As I’ve said before, there’s plenty of blame to go around. Israel really is in a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation.

    Same with Syria. They make an issue out of the Golan Heights and some of my friends afflicted with terminal niceness say Israel is wrong to keep the land. However, when I point out the hills above our complex and ask them whether they’d stand for the town next door building concrete bunkers into those hillsides and pick off our residents at will when as they go to work, they reconsider.

    You don’t solve a problem by constant attacks, rockets, suicide bombers, etc., on your next door neighbors. That causes people to respond with building walls and trying to shut you down to assure their own survival. And believe me, mountainaires, if it’s between you or me, I’ll choose me and the safety of my family every time.

    I have been part of a world peace meditation program for over 30 years. But if, despite that, you point a gun at me, I’ll shoot first.

  • the duke of marlboro

    Perhaps the establishemnt of Israel had less to do with creating a “jewish” homeland (back in 1946), and more to do with trying to establish a peaceful, democratic or at least stable middle east, as part of western defense against Russia, and even China.

    (Planting a seed, so to speak, no one expecting instant democracy. To that end, perhaps this is still a part of that process).

    I’m thinking in terms of the origianl British, and American intent, the middle east as a line of defense in the greater cold, asymmetric wars, organized along the lines of a great, stable society, not a military state of anarchy and decline, one revolution every sixty years, say).

    To that end, I’m wondering if Israel was to be modeled after the western ideals of tolerance and inclusivness, meaning ALL welcome, instead becoming what it is, now.

    And I’m aware of the history, but what choice did they really have, undersatnding how to best protect America, Britain, and the free world, in the aftermath of WW2, Russia shaking out the way it did in the nuclear age?

  • workingclass artist

    Hmmmm…. PO.seems to be falling along familiar lines. But not all Republicans are neo-cons…Just as not all Democrats voted for PEBO

  • workingclass artist
  • benny

    Annie, its sad that Israel is demonized for their firm actions. They are just striving to exist. We can sit here and try and judge them. While they fight terrorism, and try to exist.

    If hamas stops their attacks, so will Israel. Its as simple as that. Till then, these actions will go on.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    quixote: \

    If Israel really had got out of Gaza and — in the Sun Tzu sense — the Gazans had been well fed and content, then it probably really would have been the end of the story.

    And whose is responsible for seeing that the Gazans are well fed and content?

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    quixote: \

    If Israel really had got out of Gaza and — in the Sun Tzu sense — the Gazans had been well fed and content, then it probably really would have been the end of the story.

    And who is responsible for seeing that the Gazans are well fed and content?

  • mountainaires

    Sure Smitty, it’s only Palestinian land the Palestinians want; it’s only their olive fields they want to harvest; it’s only their children they see dying from malnutrition every day; it’s only their families they are prevented from visiting; their shittly little jobs they can’t get to for check points, manned by IDF, who keep them sitting in brutally hot sun for hours just to go to hospital or work…only their shitty little babies who die during childbirth in ambulances stopped at checkpoints.

    Just their shitty little homes being demolished or destroyed by bombs with them in it, you see? Why do they make such a fuss about it, after all?

    Oh, the irony. When someone comes to take your shitty little home, Smitty, I’m sure you’ll just shrug and move on to Brazile or something, right?

    Israel didn’t leave Gaza. They kept a chokehold on Gaza, starving 1.5 million people inside their Gaza Ghetto, while they continued to bomb them. Israel refused to allow any medical supplies or food in, and prevented anyone from leaving.

    Methinks you belong in that “clueless” category Lang refers to, Smitty.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    that was supposed to be: “who is”.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    Agreed, benny.

    I’m not Jewish but I have been to Israel and I do admire much of what they have accomplished. I wish the same prosperity for the Palestinians. Think of what could be accomplished if neither side had to spend billions on weapons and defense.

  • workingclass artist

    OK…I suppose HAMAS is blameless mountainaires?…

  • mountainaires

    Annie: You don’t hate Palestinians. You just don’t know anything about them, and you judge them in sweeping lies that have nothing whatsoever to do with truth. I don’t mind someone saying they don’t know the answer; what I mind is people who don’t know anything uttering brazenly bigoted statements about people they know nothing about.

    How many times do you get to ignore the fact that Hamas recognized Israel’s right to exist?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/22/israel

  • workingclass artist

    Ehemmm…Who pray tell has launched 7000 missles into Israel?

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    sorry, don’t know how this posted twice.

  • mountainaires

    Annie: Who is responsible for keeping a chokehold on the Gaza Ghetto and not allowing anyone inside to get food delivered or medical supplies delivered, or allowing anyone inside to leave? Who is responsible for starving 1.5 million people, taking their land and olive fields to give to Israeli settlers? Who is responsible for creating the Gaza Ghetto? Israel, that’s who.

    Who was responsible for creating the Warsaw Ghetto in Poland? The Jews?

  • the duke of marlboro

    I’m not speaking ideology, I’m speaking of America, and it’s military strategic position, world wide.

    Israel is just a very small part of that picture, perhaps we don’t understand each other, and I will leave it at that –

  • Emma

    Win over the Palestinians. THYE HATE ISRAEL. Hate that is so deep is not resolved thorugh negotiations. They do no twant to negotiate . They want to destroy ISrael And if some palestinians want to negotiate where are they. The mind of terrorists aren’t reasonable. What ever the deep wounds the miitants have they are not ready yet to look at their own contributuon to the terrible stae Gaza and its peole are in.

    Win the hearts and minds of terroris leaders.

    It doesn’t work that way.

  • smitty

    Israel left Gaza. They removed ALL Jewish citizens from Gaza and turned the area along with it’s infrastructure including Greenhouses and businesses over to the Palestinian Authority, which immediately destroyed the Greenhouses which could have fed thousands of Gazans and set up their terrorist actions. You are very wrong. Do your homewordk before you start spouting idiocy.

    Maybe you should read a little history of the country.

    http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5212

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    Thanks bert. Gives a bit of perspective, doesn’t it.

    Reminds me of one of my favorite novels (back when I used to read them), James Mitchners “The Source” giving the history of the land via fictional stories of the layers of civilization and cultures unearthed around an archeology dig.

  • Emma

    This sun thign yo uhave is soemthign not easiloy practice adn is the ideal. Don’t paint the Palestinias as poor weak helpless people. They have strong spritis. Who could send their children to be suiscide bombers if they were not srong?. The amount of hate toward Israel shows strength. No weak person cudl sustain theat amount of anger. The problem is they are not using thier strenght in any way but to hate Israel. The leaders don’t care about life. Being matrys seems to be the goal.

  • Emma

    Don’t paint the Palestinias as poor weak helpless people. They have strong spritis. Who could send their children to be suiscide bombers if they were not srong?. The amount of hate toward Israel shows strength. No weak person cudl sustain theat amount of anger. The problem is they are not using thier strenght in any way but to hate Israel. The leaders don’t care about life. Being matrys seems to be the goal.

  • Emma

    Don’t paint the Palestinias as poor weak helpless people. They have strong spirits. Who could send their children to be suicide bombers if they were not srong?. The amount of hate toward Israel shows strength. No weak person could sustain theat amount of anger. The problem is they are not using their strenght in any way but to hate Israel. The leaders don’t care about life. Being matrys seems to be the goal.

  • mountainaires

    It really was an effort to establish a homeland for the Jewish people because they suffered so horribly during the Holocaust and Stalin’s purge, but the fact is, that zionism was a driving force for the state of Israel long before WWII. WWII just brought it about. Political opinion in this country was largely anti-semitic until the truth about the Holocaust came to light. And, zionist sentiment exploited the guilt and shock of the revelation about six million Jews being slaughtered in that nightmare. Nothing wrong with that, necessarily, I’m just saying. I support Israel being established as a homeland for the Jewish people. But the truth is, that in 1948, the Jews committed ethnic cleansing of Palestinians too, in an effort to establish that homeland. The Nakba was an ugly thing, too, committed by the Jews. The sentiments at the time on the part of the Jewish leadership was quite brutal and bigoted against Palestinians. And, there were battles between the two peoples which had lived together for years peaceably prior to that time. You can read quotes from Jewish leaders during the Nakba, and you’ll be shocked at some of them–calling them “two-legged animals,” etc. So, there is no easy definition of the complex relationship that has historically taken place over the last 60 or so years. You also have to consider further back that when the Ottoman empire fell, the French and the British split up the Middle East among themselves, creating land boundaries that crossed historic ethnic lines, which was the source of a lot of the difficulties now as well. It’s the imperialism of western nations historically, and the resource wars now [oil] that keep the problem intractable, imho.

    Sykes-Picot:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot_Agreement

  • Idiocracy08

    When Israel was fomed in 1948, the land was little more than a piece of dry desert, but the citizens set to work and made it into a decent little country.

    This is untrue.

    This is written by Jews:

    “Britain’s high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said ‘all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators’…The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”

  • Idiocracy08

    “gave up” Gaza? It wasn’t theirs to give up.

    that’s like saying we’re going to “give up Iraq” when we finally leave.

  • NoTrollZone

    Even with an election coming and the possibility that Israel’s leadership wanted to flex muscle to maintain it’s status quo… are they really that shortsided? (You don’t need to answer that– it’s easily true– I’m thinking of our own politicans and their own self-aggrandizing gestures at the sake of our country’s well being and greater interests).
    But Israel and the US have been closely tied. Israel often referred to as our “out post” in the region.

    With the US being the only country to continue to
    be an enabler of Israel’s ongoing actions… It makes one question, why? Sure, we’re allies. Sure we’re loyal to allies (but that doesn’t entail blind loyalty).

    So what is the US up to? What do we (by “we” I mean those rather nefarious individuals who are now running our country) gain?

    I can’t believe the US sees the Palestinians as any threat to OUR security. After all, the Palestinians seem to be given little care by any one. Egypt closes its borders, the Israelis cut off humanitarian aid.. no one takes in Palestinian refugees on any large scale level (that I am aware of).
    So what is the US doing? I am thinking that the one we are all most concerned with (politically/threat speaking, not as a human rights issue)– I am thinking of IRAN.

    Is the US using Israel/ or helping Israel so that we have an avenue to go after Iran?

    I have no idea… just wondering… and the thought is rather chilling.

  • rwc

    Lans doesn’t even know WWII history or if he does he doesn’t show it.

    I guess he never heard of Dresden or our other terror bombing campaigns that dwarf anything the Israelis or even what OBL did on 9/11.

    That wasn’t winning the hearts and minds,it was the sheer application of terror. We and the Russians beat Nazi Germany into the ground.

    Or take our bombing of Serbian civilian targets or our “shock and awe” bombing of Iraq and use of cluster bombs on Iraqi civilians.

    Or our current use of airpower in Afghanistan where we regularly kill innocent Afghanis by the hundreds every year. Our air force seems to like blowing parties and weddings. Even the Israelis do better than us.

    As far as linkage goes, I guess Lang didn’t read that the Palestinian People overwhelmingly voted Hamas into power and fully support its agenda of destroying Israel.

    Do better than spouting half truths Lang baby.

  • NoTrollZone

    What is the US’s motivation in this? Is it simply to back an ally? Or are we going to use this as the reason to go after Iran?

    It seems the Arab countries have had little positive influence on the lives of the Palestinians. It seems the Palestinians are being used as a source to garner more anti-Israel sentiment. Egypt won’t allow refugees in. Of course Israel is treating the Palestinians in a disgraceful manner. It just seems they are being used as a hockey-puck in a war of ideologies.

    To move off the human rights question, what is the US doing in this? Why is the US uncategorially supporting the actions of Israel (which are condemned by the world community.

    Is the US using the Palestinians (and perhaps Israel) as a way to goad actions from Iran which we can then use as an excuse for war on them?

    Bush has wanted to go after Iran for a while. Is this the overture?

  • Mary

    Not at all, Duke.

    The Roman Empire felt the same way about the continually-stirring-the-pot “Jewish nation,” and that Empire was successful for so long BECAUSE they accomodated local religions and cultures they had conquered.

    I suspect, however, that this latest Gaza slaughter by the IDF is more about the upcoming February elections, and that the Bush neocons gave wink-and-a-nod approval for the incursion.

    A parting gift, if you may, from the now disgraced neocons.

    Ole Condi Rice continually insists that she and the Bush administration have left the Middle East in much better shape than when they came to office.

    Righty-O, Condi.

  • Mary

    It appears that rwc doesn’t know WWII history at all.

    The Nazi’s forced the Jews into a small, restricted, controlled area called the Warsaw Ghetto, denying food, water, fuel, and medical supplies. The Jews complied, but finally rose up to fight against their oppressors.

    Likewise, Israel forced the Palestinians into a small, restricted, controlled area called the Gaza Strip, denying food , water, fuel, and medical supplies, controlling all access to and from, and closing borders. Palestinians had no choice but to comply, because Israel’s big brother America, led by Bush/Cheney, protected Israel from worldwide condemnation by vetoing ceasefires in the UN Security Council.

    The WORLD, rwc, is done listening to the type of crappy slogans ignorant people like you like to spout off.

    The oppressed have become the oppressors.

    And the world believes America condones it.

    Dumbass.

  • Mary

    All they’ve really achieved is to weaken Abbas and Fatah, who will be perceived as collaborators.

    And the leaders of Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia will be weakened, too.

  • Mary

    The rest of the world is moving closer to YOU, Duke.

    And America will become more isolated because of same.

    Even China, Malaysia, Indonesia, and India are condeming this IDF action.

    There was a time when they would abstain from public condemnation.

    Not anymore.

  • Peter

    I’m not a big fan of Israel, but I think they are doing the right thing here…All the problems are in Gaza where Hamas is active. In the West Bank – a far bigger piece of land – there are no problems whatsoever. Get rid of the militants once and for all, it is possible!

  • Mary

    Bravo, Mountain!!

    There was a time America would have spoken out against this, stood for what was right, and not ENABLED the creation of a Palestinian ghetto.

    We used to believe in the Geneva Conventions, too. We used to be against torture. We used to LEAD the world in many things honorable.

    I think we ALL know what my next paragraph would say, so I’ll leave it to all , to complete in their own minds and consciences.

  • Mary

    Oh for God’s sake, smitty.

    Israel CONTROLS Gaza, closing borders and denying any entry.

    The “idea,” supported by the frikkin Bush administration, was that if they were miserable and starving, the Palestinians would “rise up” and overthrow Hamas.

    Aren’t you proud of what your country supported?

    Get a damm clue.

  • Mary

    Uh, no, Benny.

    The compromise Israel agreed to, said that if Hamas stopped their attacks under the previous ceasefire, Israel would re-open the borders.

    Hamas complied, for the entire 6 months of the agreement.

    Israel reneged, and left the borders closed.

    Them’s the facts, dear.

  • Mary

    Eheem…..Who pray reneged on the compromise when Hamas stopped launching for the agreed-upon time, but Israel continued with closed borders?

    The whole world knows Israel broke the ceasefire by not complying with the agreement.

    Why don’t you know that?

  • Idiocracy08

    You lost me at “it doesn’t matter if you kiss their a** or blow them up; they still hate you.”

    I don’t remember anyone ever kissing Hamas’s ass. Nor should anyone. I know they are one of the biggest problems of the Palestinian people. But not their only problem.

  • Mary

    This post is delusional.

    How ignorant of the actual situation this poster is, is stunning, and frankly, embarassing for her fellow Americans.

    You have access to international press on the internet, Emma, including the British press at BBC & Guardian.

    There is NO EXCUSE for you accepting neocon slogans provided by AIPAC as truth anymore.

    Push your envelope.

  • Idiocracy08

    People say “Israel left Gaza…what’s the problem?”

    Ummm…how about the fact they should have never been there? The fact that they bulldozed cities for these illegal settlements. They didn’t just move the settlements out of Gaza (and still have plenty in the West Bank) just because the US asked them to. They are illegal settlements and there are UN resolutions saying they are illegal. And the occupation is too.

    These people lost their cities & neighborhoods. They had to watch the people these settlements being built on their land. Their homes & neigborhoods they grew up in and played at as children…being taken over.

    I hear a lot of “what would you do?” in defense of Israel. But what would you have done in that situation. Just get over it?

  • Idiocracy08

    Yeah, there’s actually the right and left in Israel!!! People have different opinions there!!! It’s amazing.

    Sharon=neocon
    Netanyahu=neocon

    Rabin=peacemaker
    Peres=peacemaker

  • Zeke

    In my opinion, the citizens of Gaza, believing religiously in their hatred of all things Jewish are actively enabling Hamas and in truth, fully supporting them. Remember who elected Hamas to run their little toilet and do some damned research into the FACT that Palestine didn’t even exist formally until after WW1 as that entire area was under the control and Nationality of the Ottoman Empire.
    “Palestinians” are or were, for the most part either Jordanian misfits kicked out of their own country or they were born in Gaza or the West Bank.
    They are not innocent. They cheered when we were hit on 9/11 and would do so again whenever the West takes a hit.
    From an historical standpoint, who remembers all the great protests worldwide when the poor, downtrodden victims in Berlin in 1945 were bombed and shot and raped. Anyone? Hmmm?
    I didn’t think so.
    Always remember this: Israel and Jews worldwide KNOW that they are unfairly hated. They also know from history that there is NO ONE they will trust with their own safety and security.
    I am getting tired of this lack of perspective by those who constantly stand outside the maelstrom and pontificate about what should be done.
    After all, if the anti-Israel geniuses are wrong, they’ll just say “Oops. my bad… Guess I misjudged that one a tad,” and go on with their self deluded lives.
    Israel, on the other hand, would be gone. All of its people dead or running for their lives from a horde of 11th Century religious madmen.
    These are the only two alternatives Israel has.
    They either keep mad dogs at bay by being the baddest MF’s in the theater or THEY DIE.
    Why is this so hard for people to understand?

  • JulieD

    mountainaires –

    Any idiot can mindlessly regurgitate and link to other stupid sites and no matter how frequently you continue to do so, your endlessly trying to belittle the US and Israel isn’t going to “win” US all over.

    I don’t care for your grudge against the US and Jews and it’s clear that you prefer Palestinian violence.

    This statement of yours (one of many above) is a perfect example:

    How many times do you get to ignore the fact that Hamas recognized Israel’s right to exist?

    Where? In a shallow grave?

    Hamas refuses to co-exist peacefully and apparently so do you.

  • Zeke

    “If Israel could give up the entire country and move somewhere else, would it end?”

    nope

  • http://vbonnaire.wordpress.com vbonnaire

    Here is my New Year’s wish — averting WWIII. So. Because of who Larry is, what he does in life, and his friends I am going to put every ounce of my training right here to try and solve this before it escalates.

    I had one of the best educations on this planet, and I’m serious. I stopped working after we lost our parents to old age since 2000. I need a focus to feed my feminist self-esteem, and you know what? The CIA intrigues me. There is a mystique about it — so!

    I already feel that I’m in the presence of brilliant minds around here. I’m going to analyse this.
    Day by day. Here is why:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,474768,00.html

    I see Larry and his friends as good guys and fellow Americans. We know who we are, and we know our own hearts and minds. Based on what I am monitoring over the last year — we have multiple things going on.

    Larry, you can trust my heart. I mean that. I’m going to think up some interventions and give you some tools I know. I have already begun an intervention at my place in the hopes that Ban Ki-moon can see it. The Alliance of Civilizations is something he has set up. So, you guys know all the intelligence end and military history I don’t, and so, let’s think about the Muslim cultural identification over the last three “living” generations where ever that was on the globe. We can use a technique from Family Systems theory for this — by using a genogram — as a mapping technique. We want three generations the grandparents, parents, and children. As you stated only the radical “jihad” portion is the angriest? So, let’s figure out why.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genogram

    what we are looking for is the roots of the rage?
    and we want to find out why suicide is the only means to prove a point –

    what did the twin towers represent?

    are the luxury hotels seen as grossly unfair when people are starving in places like you have described such as Gaza?

    what does the history of WWII mean in this context?

    what does the ancient costume mean? Is this a way of trying to purposely “revert” to a simpler life in a Western world dominated by the scientific? Two important themes came up in looking at the hamas wiki–

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

    There is something under the Hamas documents part about fearing “world domination” by the Jews and that only if:

    According to one translation[specify], the 1988 Hamas Covenant (or Charter) states that the organization’s goal is to “raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned.” It further asserts that “The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions – Islam, Christianity and Judaism – to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_history

    The Crusaders

    Main article: The Crusades

    Beginning in the 8th century C.E. the Christian kingdoms of Spain had begun the Reconquista aimed at retaking Al-Andalus from the Moors. In 1095, Pope Urban II, inspired by the perceived holy wars in Spain and implored by the eastern Roman emperor to help defend Christianity in the East, called for the First Crusade from Western Europe which captured Edessa, Antioch, Tripoli and Jerusalem. The Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem emerged and for a time controlled many holy sites of Islam. Saladin, however, restored unity within the Umma by defeating the Fatimids, and was then able to put an end to the Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1187 C.E. Other crusades were launched with at least the nominal intent to recapture the holy city and other holy lands, but hardly more was ever accomplished than the errant looting and occupation of Christian Constantinople, leaving the Eastern Roman, or Byzantine Empire severely weakened and ripe for later conquest. However, the crusaders did manage to weaken Muslim territories preventing them from further expansion into Christendom.

    [edit] The Mamluks

    In 1250 C.E., the short-lived Ayyubid dynasty (established by Saladin) was overthrown by slave regiments, and a new dynasty—the Mamluks—was born. The Mamluks soon expanded into Palestine, expelled the remaining Crusader states and repelled the Mongol attempt to invade Syria. Thus they united Syria and Egypt for the longest period of time between the Abbasid and Ottoman empires (1250-1517).[13]

    If this is the Crusades redux — how does that history fit? Where does Malcolm X fit?
    Here, where is Warren going to fit, and where did Wright fit?

    Just some thoughts.

    big hugs!

    it doesn’t have to be “the Rapture” if we approach this with level heads…there are far more religions in the world than just THE BIG THREE, afterall…

    Happy New Year Larry & Co!

    xxoo! (ps: Bud if you read this tell Larry we “met” face to face, will ya?

  • Zeke

    And in China, they’re on the menu…

  • Mary

    Oh good grief, benny.

    Benjamin Netanyahu is Israel’s Dick Cheney.

    In fact, much of the manipulated intel for the Iraq invasion CAME from the Israeli neocons.

  • Idiocracy08

    You may want to read up on Palestinians.
    http://www.southafricanews.net/story/278325

    http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-04/2006-04-15-voa21.cfm

    Not only are they captive of Isreal, but also of Hamas.

  • Mary

    Hyberbole, Zeke. Learn what that word means.

    The world is tired of this kind of tripe.

  • Idiocracy08

    That’s sick.

  • Zeke

    For the first time this new year…
    GFY

  • Mary

    Very good questions, Duke.

    Thank you.

  • JulieD

    Mary –

    You need to visit CREDIBLE sources regarding the Warsaw ghetto. The WATER was shut off.

    The Jews were being sent to EXTERMINATION camps and forced labor camps.

    A few managed to escape through sewers.

  • Mary

    Yes.

    And to keep the Jewish organizations like Irgun pacified while WWII was going on, the British privately promised them a “homeland” if they’d fight on the side of the allies.

    The Arabs knew the British had promised that , and chose to fight with the axis powers.

    But that promise to the Jewish settlers, mostly to keep Irgun from terrorist bombings while the British were fighting the war, was clearly made BEFORE anyone knew about Nazi death camps.

  • Nellie

    orwelllives,

    Someone above suggested the learning of history. I re-iterate that and please do so in depth.

    Admittedly, I am conflicted having grown up in a predominently Jewish town, and having personally known serveral Holocaust victims when I was a child. No, I am not Jewish.

    In my own reserach I have learned some things:

    1. The Zionist from Europe started promoting the idea of a Jewish Homeland in the mid 1930′s. They advocated taking all of the old “Judea” – and that was their goal right after WW II. So the Arabs do have reason to despise the settlements which are an outgrowth of that idea.

    2. The expression (Paraphrasing here) push the Isreali’s into the sea is only 1/2 half of the orginal advocated by David Ben Gurion and others. The whole statement (paraphrased) is something lke – “Push the Isreali’s into the sea, BEFORE they push us into the desert and force us to eat sand” So there is a direct response to the original Zionist plan that has been mis-represented for decades.

    3. Prior to the agression of the Zionists the Jews and Arabs lived peacefully together for centuries in the Middle East, unlike in Europe.

    Gaza has been nothing more than a fenced in Ghetto for decades now. Oppresion for any length of time causes people to rise up. That is true since the beginning of recorded history.

    The Jewish leaders are using “Fear” of another Holcaust as a weapon. Paul Kofouri, one of the orginal mediators in the Arab/Isreali conflict, is from a small town in NH. Yes I have met him.

    During the early 90′s Paul was doing an informal “person on the streets of America” to find out what American citizens were feeling. At a party, he also asked me that question. I responded that I felt violence was not an answer and that so called “intelligent” people need to come up with other alternatives. Paul responded, much to my suprise, that woman in America had the same attidue as both Arab and Jewish woman over there. He said that our “dove like” attitudes would cause harm to vital military/industiral companies. (He was not too happy with the answers he was getting).

    I have no “magic solutions!” However I agree with Larry that the response by Isreal is way over the line. 368+ dead Palestinans for 5 dead Isrealis. 17 Jews injured in ratio to 1,700 Palestinains. Come on. this is genocide – no matter whatever Orewellian terms may be used.

    I do not have links, but have read several times over the last 5 years about joint efforts by both Isreali and Palestinian woman to promote peace.

    Raw Story has a link to an article about a small yacht being rammed by IDF for attempting to bring 3 tons of medical supplies into Gaza. Cythis MacKenzie was on board.

    Bush and Cheney’s who, along with friends and family, are heavily inevested in war and oil industries may indeed be leaving a “goodbye” present that will inexorably complicate any efforts to resolve.

    Thank you Larry and Pat Lang for bringing us a hard core factual perspective. It is unfortuante for all concerned that Larry and Pat do not have the final say in resolving this. If they did we would not be having this discussion and I strongly believe the world would be a better place with their leadership and expertise.

    Happy New Year to all and hopefully some rational leadership steps forward on ALL sides.
    There are no “clean hands” in ANY military conflict!

  • JulieD

    mountainaires-

    So, your lack of credibility comes from HuffPo, LATimes, and a diatribe from Wikipedia.

    Any idiot can incessantly spew from stupid sites.

    I get it – you’re a Jew hater who loves to bash the US. Woohoo for you.

    Have a blast with your friends in Hamas.

  • pacificisland

    Here’s a an exerpt from that article, expressing a view different than Larry’s, but from a Muslim doctor:

    As an Egyptian Muslim now living in America, I ask myself why the Arab street and its supporters in the West never show similarly strong response against Islamic terrorists who target innocents worldwide and explode markets full of predominantly Muslim civilians in Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan, Turkey, etc. When you consider that the Israeli attack killed some 400 mostly Hamas militant in the first four days, the passive attitude of the Muslim world against the terrorists represents extreme hypocrisy. If it truly cared for Muslims’ lives, it should have demonstrated in the same numbers and with equal vehemence against the Islamists who murder hundreds of thousands of their fellow Muslims, not to mention the Hamas slaughter of rival Fatah members – women and children included.

    Another question is why we have not seen a similarly strong reaction against the terrorists who conducted the latest attack in Mumbai. Many Indians, Westerners and Jews were killed. Yet there was no spontaneous eruption of outrage and demonstrations in Europe to denounce the attacks as in the case of Gaza. Are these lesser lives than those of the Palestinians? Where is the organized public fury for the wanton killing of Indians and Jews?

    We have witnessed the burning of churches in Iraq at the hands of jihadists. We also know that thousands of Christian Iraqis have fled because the Islamists imposed on them the traditional Shari’a choice for non-Muslims: Convert to Islam, pay a humiliating tax (jizzia), or be killed. Yet, we have not heard any thing from the Arab street or its supporters. Only stone silence. Are Palestinian lives worth more than those of Christians in Iraq?

    RELATED
    Saudi FM, Arab League chief blame IDF op on Palestinian rift
    Fault lines in Arab world
    slideshow: Gaza op, Day 6
    An insular tribal mentality still governs the Muslim world, and there is no willingness to demonstrate against fellow Muslims, even against those who have committed great crimes against other Muslims. And Europe is too eviscerated to come to the aid of Christian victims of anti-”infidelism.”

    Then there is plain old anti-Semitism. It is so easy to demonstrate against the Jews or Israel and extremely rare to see demonstrations in support of Jewish victims, such as the altruistic rabbi and his wife who were singled out for special torture in Mumbai by the Islamists. It does the bloodstained European conscience good to be able to point a finger at supposed Israeli “aggression” to help alleviate some of its own lingering guilt.

    The Muslim world and the Europeans who support the demonstrations against Israel must stop the biased reaction that blindly and reflexively supports the Palestinians and villifies Israel. Those who demonstrate against the military campaign on Gaza must realize that if Hamas had stopped pounding Israel with its rockets, Israel would not have launched its attack. If the Palestinians focused on building their society rather than destroying those of others, the whole region would enjoy peace and flourish. Should Palestinians recognize the right of Israel to exist, end terrorism against Jews and nurture a sincere desire to live in peace, they would end their suffering. The solution now is simply in the hands of the Palestinians – not the Israelis.

    The writer, a medical doctor and Muslim reformer, is the author of Inside Jihad.

  • Nellie

    So true Patrick!

    Unfortunately, people over there have long memories, and unlike Americans, hold grudges for centuries and do not easily “Move On”!

  • Zeke

    My heart goes out to anyone who is victimized by circumstances which aren’t under their ability to affect.
    What my point of disagreement is about is that when this all takes place, its always Israel who is to blame.

    Help us all out here and present a list of concessions, give backs and cease-fires that the Israeli’s have participated in, which they abrogated first.
    Please place them chronologically so we can measure the levels of response by Israel EVERY TIME the “Palestinians” broke the cease-fires.
    A people cannot elect a government, set it on its course and then deny responsibility. Hamas is the product of the Palestinian gestalt just as America’s gestalt has produced a fraudulent president elect. Bad decisions beget bad results. Its called “Cause and Effect.” (We don’t believe in this in America anymore… we just bail ‘em out and enable our own self destruction.)
    Just once I would like to hear someone say, “There go those damned Palestinians… just when Israel starts opening up and letting a semblance of civilized trust into the mix, they go and screw it up by firing rockets into civilian centers. Will they never learn?”
    Gazans are reaping a bitter harvest for their cumulative decision.
    Israel may never be able as a nation, to feel as though its back isn’t to a wall. I am certain that this is the driving force behind their actions. It seems to me that what the world is asking or demanding Israel to do is deal with an infected, festering wound and do it with their hands tied while at the same time removing each bacterium one by one.

    Everyone seems expert on why Israel should be condemned for doing what is in their view, defending itself from terrorists. I haven’t seen anybody offer a solution yet.
    I sure as hell haven’t got one.

  • Nellie

    Has anyone considered that Hamas and Hezbollah are the Arab’s response to the original Zionists?

    No different than the “Green Mountain Men” being the American colonies response to the British back in the 1770′s!

    Perhaps Stodgie has a point. If Isreal over rode their hard core Zionists, then the “raison d’etre” for Hamas and Hezbollah would no longer exist.

  • steve

    My original post was not about claiming like for 1 side or the other; it was to point out an article on the participants involved I enjoyed reading & to use a quote from said article that could be located in a search engine if the link failed to work for anyone wishing to read it.
    But, hey, make assumptions about me – ain’t the internet great!!!

  • stodgie

    mountainaires, you state your opinions as if they ARE FACTS. BULL! both sides are at fault. deal with that!

  • stodgie

    workingclass artist, thanks for that comment. in my small way i was trying to take the discussion to another level beyond israel is terrible and gaza is awful too! the bigger picture of conflict and the law of unintended consequences should be seriously considered. if only carter had done that before his misadventure in arming the combatants in afghanistan. taking israel out of the picture may not be what we need or want. it might be serious repercussions for us. not to say that we don’t need to readjust our policy after bush.

  • stodgie

    zeke, neither do they! it is far easier to complain!

  • Mary

    Try reading Leon Uris or Michener, Julie, and give up on the wingnut propaganda.

    The Warsaw Ghetto was the place Jews finally had enough, and fought back.

    It was a miserable, miserable stockyard stop for trains to the death camps, with God-awful living conditions.

    Much like Gaza now, with all borders closed for 2 1/2 years, with Bush administration approval.

    You DID know that, right?

  • Mary

    Wow, Zeke.

    You got real class.

    NOT

  • Mary

    Stodgie, mountainaires’s posts are FULL of historical facts, sources, and links.

    Yours, on the other hand , are a bit driveby, FULL of your own opinions.

    Give it a rest.

  • Mary

    Nonsense , stodgie.

    The SOLUTION is for the United States to be a fair broker.

    The neocons that took you falsely into Iraq, with manipulated intel provided by Mossad and Netanyahu, NEVER intended to be “fair brokers.”

    TABA fell apart because Ehud Barak knew Clinton was on his way out, and Bush & his buddies were on their way in, and because he was facing elections against Sharon (Sharon won, arrogantly walked into the Temple on the Mount, and it all fell apart).

    It is the Israelis who never intended to honor their promises.

    Read the history, hot shot.

    Your opinions don’t count as FACTS.

  • Mary

    Not to mention, that when it was Jewish settlers bombing British institutions during colonial days, THEY were the ones being called terrorists.

    Rahm Emmanuel’s uncle was a member of the Irgun during those violent anti-British days. He was killed in one of these “freedom fighter” activities.

    To the British, HE was a terrorist.

  • Idiocracy08

    Yeah, and I’m real sure those Palestinian elections were as fair. Maybe as fair as ours in 2000?

  • the duke of marlboro

    After researching a little, it would appear the fate of Israel was cast with the King David bombing.

    Always out of their league, then, and now.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    Zeke, strangely that was almost the exact conversation coming from my daughter’s house over in ObamaLand this morning. I was surprised as I am the more militant member of the family.

    Maybe that’s what happens when you find yourself in the role of matriarch with a sense of preserving future generations…I am sick and tired of the Arab BS over a Palestine state. The Arabs don’t want it.
    For Godsake, save your people and build a prosperous sanctuary for them. And don’t tell me that Israel wouldn’t respond to dynamic action in that direction. It would be the cheapest security they’d ever find.

  • JillD

    stodgie –

    I’m so glad you’re here for some intelligent discourse.

  • Idiocracy08

    I see a lot of people on both sides saying we need to learn more or to read up about it. This is what I’ve been trying to do.

    http://www.cactus48.com/OriginMSW.pdf
    This has quotes from many people, including Ghandi.

    There didn’t seem to be a problem with the Jews and Arabs living together in Palestine before the Zionist settlers. They started moving into Palestine in the late 1800s.

    In 1915, the British secretly promisted the Palestinians Palestine if they fought with them against the Ottoman Empire. They did.

    Then 2 years later, the British secretly promised “the establishment in Palestine of a
    National Home for the Jewish people.”

    This is also a good source – points of view from both sides up to 2001:
    http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2001/promises/promises-timeline.pdf

  • Wisewoman

    Thanks Pat & Larry for your excellent articles. They give us an opportunity to look objectively instead of emotionally at the issue. I am an AA female who supports Hillary and never Obama. I marched with MLK. I am mindful of many quotes from him. Some are applicable to us, others to Israelis and to the Palenstinians.
    1. “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
    2. “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.”
    3. “An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity.”
    4. “At the center of non-violence stands the principle of love.”
    5. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction…The chain reaction of evil – hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars – must be broken, or we shall all be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.”

  • Idiocracy08

    I am sick and tired of the Arab BS over a Palestine state. The Arabs don’t want it.
    For Godsake, save your people and build a prosperous sanctuary for them.

    Save your people….from who? from what?

    The prosperous sanctuary for the Palestinians was supposed to be Palestine…where they were born and where the lived. The entire Arab nation may not care, but the Palestinians who have lived there sure do.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    I am 100% opposed to the Jewish settlements but Gaza is in no way equatable to the Warsaw Ghetto.

    When the Arabs were given a choice between developing their country and commerce they chose instead rockets and suicide bombers the minute Israel vacated (how Nazi-like of them).

    Sorry. Just don’t agree with you.

  • Idiocracy08

    Look at the video about Deir Yassin massacre:
    some are longer, so take your pick:
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=deir+yassin+massacre&search_type=&aq=f

    Here’s another video about the hangings of 2 British soldiers…as excused by Menachem Begin:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPG8OekNwog&feature=related

    Here’s more on Irgun:
    http://www.cdiss.co.uk/Documents/Uploaded/CDISS%20Programme%20-%20Database%20of%20Terrorist%20Incidents%20-%201940-1949.pdf

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    They started moving into Palestine in the late 1800s.

    This makes it sound as if there was no Jewish community there until 1800. I seem to remember something about a guy named Moses???? Both sides have been there forever. They have to work with the reality of today. They need two separate states. Think the Palestinians would accept the world coming to the land they now occupy and creating a heaven on earth for them? No. They want the other place…you know under the other guy’s administration.

  • stodgie

    mary, put a sock in it.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    And many of them still do live there. Those who left are fed the myth of the “right of return”.

    I think I should be able to reclaim family land lost in our own Civil War too but sadly we decided to move on and have a life. My generation is the first not to have had up close and personal experience and years of financial ruin (even with no slaves to be punished for) from being starved out by an occupying force. My grandfather, a young man in the 1930′s elected Sheriff of his small town, fled after running afoul of the KKK. He refused to participate in terrorizing a black man. I suppose today you could equate that with refusing to fire a rocket. Sending for his wife and 5 children as soon as he found a new beginning, it was 25 years before he felt safe enough to go back to the place he was born. We know the stories of the brutality of Civil War but we don’t live in the past otherwise.

  • JillD

    Maybe Obama can buy the next one for them.

  • Idiocracy08

    I said the Zionists. If you read my earlier statement, it says:

    There didn’t seem to be a problem with the Jews and Arabs living together in Palestine before the Zionist settlers.

    I guess I’m confused. I thought there was a difference with the Jewish people as a whole, and the Zionists. Forgive me for my ignorance.

    Think the Palestinians would accept the world coming to the land they now occupy and creating a heaven on earth for them?

    Again, forgive me for my ignorance. I don’t think anyone would like for anyone else to come occupy their land…in your opinion creating a heaven on earth.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    I didn’t say occupying their land…I said coming to create their (Palestinian) version of heaven on earth. As in give it to them free of charge. Whatever they want. Sky’s the limit.

    What would they want? #1 Kill the Jews and move us back in to the place formerly known as Israel (the real Palestine). Since that won’t happen, what could be done to satisfy them on their current turf?

    But aside from that Idiocracy, let’s hear what you want for the Palestinians…long term. Draw your picture. Indulge your fantasy of what it would take to bring the Palestinians happiness.

  • orwelllives

    Nellie,

    I have no idea where you learned your “history”, but there’s a lot you don’t seem to know or Understand. The Zionist movement started in Europe in the 19th century in reaction to persecution of Jews in European countries. The first European Jews to arrive in what was then Palestine and under Ottoman (Turkish) rule PURCHASED land from Arab land owners – they didn’t steal it – even if they wanted to steal it, it wouldn’t have been possible for them, since they were not the ones in control – the Turks were, and they were pretty harsh rulers. Moreover, even before these European Jews started to immigrate to palestine, there was continious Jewish presence there, and contrary to popular belief, it was not heavily populated with Arabs. You don’t have to take my word for it, there are eye witness accounts. In his book “The Innocents Abroad”, published in 1869, Mark Twain who traveled in the area wrote the following:

    “The further we went the hotter the sun got, and the more rocky and bare, repulsive and dreary the landscape became… There was hardly a tree or a shrub any where. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country. NO LANDSCAPE EXISTS THAT IS MORE TIRESOME TO THE EYE THAN THAT WHICH BOUNDS THE APPROACH TO JERUSALEM” (emphsis mine). And later:

    “So small! Why it was no larger than an American village of four thousand inhabitants…Jerusalem numbers only fourteen thousand people”.

    The truth of the matter is that a large portion of Arab immigrants to Palestine FOLLOWED Jewish immigration, because the Jews created jobs – first in agriculture and later in various industries. These are the facts. In 1947 The UN decided to divide Palestine into two countries: Arab and Jewish. The Jews acepted the partitio plan – the Arabs rejected it and started a war, which they lost. This was the first and, unfortunately, not the last time the Palestinian Arabs missed an opportunity to establish their own state next to Israel. The last serious attemp in 2000, led by then president Clinton, failed because Arafat could not bring himself to make the concessions (such as abandoning the idea of the “right of return” of Palestinians to Israel proper), necessary to establish a Palestinian state. Again, you don’t have to take my word for it – read what president Clinton has to say about Arafat.

  • orwelllives

    Annie, Zeke and others,

    Thanks for holding the line on this blog. Being a Hillary supporter (although not a Hillary worshiper, as some here seem to be) I came here during the primaries, trying to find a sane perspective about Obama and the elections, and I guess I found it for a while, and I probably should Thank Larry Johnson for that, (so thank you Larry!) but I totally disagree with him about the ME conflict, and I seem to remember that he had similar perspective on the Russia – Georgia conflict. I think the world is a dangerous place, and a world without Israel will still be just that -a dangerous place, maybe even more so. So goodbye and good luck! And keep up the good work – some serious education is in need for many here. As for me, I find the conversation to be an exercise in futility – people seem to have preconceived notions based on some ‘narrative’ that was fed to them by the same main stream media that sold us BO – I’m not buying either of them.

  • Idiocracy08

    PURCHASED land from Arab land owners – they didn’t steal it – even if they wanted to steal it, it wouldn’t have been possible for them, since they were not the ones in control – the Turks were, and they were pretty harsh rulers.

    http://www.cactus48.com/OriginMSW.pdf

    “[The Ottoman Land Code of 1858] required the registration in the name of individual owners of agricultural land, most of which had never previously been registered and which had formerly been treated according to traditional forms of land tenure, in the hill areas of Palestine generally masha’a, or communal usufruct. The new law meant that for the first time a peasant could be deprived not of title to his land, which he had rarely held before, but rather of the right to live on it, cultivate it and pass it on to his heirs, which had formerly been inalienable…Under the
    provisions of the 1858 law, communal rights of tenure were often ignored…Instead, members of the upper classes, adept at manipulating or circumventing the legal process, registered large areas of land as theirs…The fellahin [peasants] naturally considered the land to be theirs, and often discovered that they had ceased to be the legal owners only when the land was sold to Jewish settlers by an absentee landlord…Not only was the land being purchased; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine.” Rashid Khalidi, “Blaming The Victims,” ed. Said and Hitchens

    “In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine…After 1940, when the mandatory authority restricted Jewish land ownership to specific zones inside Palestine, there continued to be illegal buying (and selling) within the 65 percent of the total area restricted to Arabs. Thus when the partition plan was announced in 1947 it included land held illegally by Jews, which was incorporated as a fait accompli inside the borders of the Jewish state. And after Israel announced its statehood, an impressive series of laws legally assimilated huge tracts of Arab land (whose proprietors had become refugees, and were pronounced ‘absentee landlords’ in order to expropriate their lands and prevent their return under any circumstances).” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.”

  • Snickers

    War is war. Peggy Sue I thank your relatives for serving in the US Military and freeing my family from Japanese concentration camps and the torture they endured in the Pacific. Atrocities happen in wars – that’s what war means. My parents endured endless bombing for several years, every day, and I remember one of my first lessons my parents taught – stay away from UXB -get the bomb squad. When we immigrated to the US it was a whole different ballgame. No one in this country had any experience of living in concentration or living under German occupation – a constant topic in our family get togethers.
    Whenever there was thunder, or the 4th of July firecrackers, my mother would hide under the bed or hide in the closet, covering her head, physically remembering the bombing. Scared out of her mind.
    While the Israelis may not have lost as many people, I would imagine that being the constant target of missiles (whether or not they actually explode) has to be harrowing and the health cost should not be dismissed as insignificant.
    I don’t know who’s right or who’s wrong, but it always takes two to tango, and having read so many posts here and learning so much about this situation, my question is why don’t the neighboring Arab countries assimilate the Palestinians, and shouldn’t Israel be able to defend herself. Who decides the force is disproportionate? And I have lost my homeland, in case anyone mentions the Palestinians losing theirs. My suggestion is find a home somewhere else and live and enjoy life. And count whatever blessings and joys you have in your life.

  • Snickers

    Thank you Orwelllives, I find your comments insightful and agree with them wholeheartedly. And thanks for the history update.

  • Snickers

    I agree, Xax, well said.

  • Snickers

    Well Mary, those countries you mention are such champions of human rights, yes? They really have a lot of room to talk, right? Instead of condemning someone else, maybe they should try taking care of their own dirty laundry for a change.

  • Snickers

    Yep, Smitty. And thanks for post PacificIsland.

  • Strawberrybitch

    That was Mary’s point. We’ve lost the moral high ground to places like China, India, etc. Hell, I’m racking my brain trying to remember the African country in the middle of a horrible civil war where they were using AIDS as a weapon because ‘it is cheaper than bullits’. When we tried to call them on it, they basically told us to sod off considering what happened at Abu Graib(sp).

  • Snickers

    Yep, Annie and Benny.

  • beyond_words

    Well Hamas obviously has to be stopped and rooted out. They will never have any peaceful intentions, ever. The only peace they want is the ability to re-arm themselves for the next murderous rampage. Hopefully a ground invasion by Israel can root out the leadership in this area for awhile.

    The Palestinian people, however, are not all like this and to see 1.5 million of them packed into this narrow piece of land akin to a concentration- refugee camp conditions being attacked by massive ordinance and firepower reminds me of shooting fish in a barrel.

    I’ve read nearly 50%! of this 1.5 million civilian population are children! This is atrocious coming form a small but powerful 1st world democratic power!

    What would I do or what do I expect Israel to do? Act like the peace loving humane nation you say you are and invade- and kill/arrest these thugs, root them out and bring in humanitarian aid to these innocent children/woman you are starving to death. Nearly 2000 people with serious injuries with little medical aid getting in, with the israeili foreign minister today refusing a french bid for a ceasefire to bring in needed supplies.

    I know this will never fly, (just an idea)but in my opinion the only way out of this situation in the section of the middle east would be if Israel followed the lead of many western nations. After getting rid of Hamas etc, negotiate for the amalgamization of palestinians into israeli lands where their culture/heritage etc is just as protected as any other. Go into any major western city and you will see our china towns, mosques, orthodox churches, etc etc etc…why cant they live side by side amongst one another as they have for centuries before the creation of israel??

    It would take massive cooperation on both sides of course but lets face it, even the other arab countries dont want the palestinians. This would of course only work after all terrorist elements were eliminated…. ( yea i know, utopian thoughts but if the west can do it with our multitude of different religions here, why cant they?)

  • Snickers

    Thanks Zeke, I agree.

  • Zeke

    GFY

  • stodgie

    exactly workingclass artist! the countries in the middle east are terrifed of these radicals.

  • http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/07/the-idf-ground-force/ The IDF ground force : NO QUARTER

    [...] Note: As Larry Johnson wrote about Pat Lang’s other recent post on “Israel’s Gaza Misadventure,” “Pat Lang is a dear friend and a brilliant scholar. He established the Arabic program [...]

  • http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/15/hamas-and-iran/ Hamas and Iran : NO QUARTER

    [...] Note: As Larry Johnson wrote about Pat Lang’s other recent post on “Israel’s Gaza Misadventure,” “Pat Lang is a dear friend and a brilliant scholar. He established the Arabic program [...]

  • DE Tedooru

    Pat Lang sure had it right. As I read it, bullies who attack because they are afraid that they might not be feared enough to deter will never feel secure. But there’s more to the current “shooting fish [Palestinians] in a barrel [Gaza]” than that. Barak has a reputation as a bungler who plays long shots blindly; he hoped to, just for once, prove himself a magician. Livni was nixed for the premeirship by the rabbis soly because she’s a girl; she hopes to prove herself as able to massacre without flinching as the best of them. Olmert’s career is deeply stained by corruption; he hopes to drown the stain in Palestinan blood. Trying to re-establish Israel’s fearsome reputation after Lebanon 2006 and opportunistically to used the Gaza massacre politically, these three have repeated in Gaza the horrors of the Warsaw Ghetto– in both cases a polpulation was strangled and starved and, when a few resisted and fired back, that served as an excuse to massacre as “collective punishment” in order to clear Gaza of Palestinians. But though Israeli leaders since 1947 sought to crush Arabs with what they called an “iron wall,” thus bringing about their vison of “Greater Israel,” the Israeli public has always been very sensitive to casualties–both Arab as Israeli– on moral grounds. So every “Zionazi” era of ethnic cleansing based on a leibensraum thesis was followed by a “post-Zionist” era of land for peace and mutual support. The time is most propitious now, for Israel can serve as nuclear umbrella to all the Arabs against Iran’s puny potential atomic bomb in exchange for full integration. The current Arab one crop (oil) banana republic governments are no longer tentable. Here, I know from many Arabs, Israel can be a “light onto the [Arab} nations,” as many of Zionism’s Founding Fathers hoped, leading them into modernity with its high-sci/tech teaching and industries. America is broke and can no longer engorge the $$ placenta from which as a 60 years old fetus Israel subsisted. It must be born as a self-sufficient real nation by integrating itself with its Arab kith-and-kin on a joint road to popular prosperity. Towards that end, it cannot continue to kill Arabs in order to expand Greater Israel for there is no Daispora Jewish Great Alyiah coming to populate it. It must develop a two-sates-one-economy solution with the Palestinians fast so they can become the brokers of the great Israeli-Arab modernization enterprise that the US so botched up in Iraq. There is still time, for the Palestinians have often before seen the light that follows the dark in their relation with Israel. An aggressive economic unity now can safely predict a regional unity within a decade as the West becomes independent of fossil fuel. The Diaspora Jews like their own countries just fine. That’s why, per the US State Dept, 78% of the homes built at US tyaxpayers’ expense for olims (settlers) that never came are empty. There is no need for MORE land, only for MORE peace in which to build a new Mideast. It is doable only if Israel quickly ends its murderous “iron wall” of expansion to supposedly create leibensraum for the “olim” that will never come. So Zionists must follow the moral precepts of their common culture with the Arabs, as dreamed by their Founding Fathers.

  • http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/27/dennis-ross-and-the-jewish-people-policy-planning-institute/ Dennis Ross and the “Jewish People Policy Planning Institute” : NO QUARTER

    [...] Note: As Larry Johnson wrote about Pat Lang’s other recent post on “Israel’s Gaza Misadventure,” “Pat Lang is a dear friend and a brilliant scholar. He established the Arabic program [...]

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