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Can We At Least Acknowledge the Propaganda?

(bumped up from the evening of January 1st by Susan)

The role of the U.S. media in enabling Israel is truly stunning. When a friend is doing something truly stupid, you don’t help them by praising their stupidity. Believe it or not I do consider myself a friend of Israel. Forty years of killing Palestinians of all shapes and ideology has not made Israel more secure. Yet in the United States there is enormous political cost for anyone who suggests that Israel’s current approach–e.g., Gaza–is counter productive. Instead we get a constant drumbeat of pro-Israeli information. Consider today’s Washington Post’s Opinion section. These two pieces were published side by side:

Why Israel Is Bombing Gaza
By Ephraim Sneh
Thursday, January 1, 2009; Page A13
When demands are made of Israel to halt its military activities in Gaza, a brief historical reminder is in order.

In September 2005, Israel vacated Gaza, dismantled all the settlements in the Gaza Strip and did not leave a shred of a presence there.

In January 2006, rule over Gaza passed to the Hamas government under Ismail Haniyeh. Instead of bringing investors to Gaza, the Hamas government brought the guerrilla-warfare trainers of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. Instead of launching economic projects, this government launched rockets every day at Israeli towns and villages across the border. They smuggled in vast amounts of explosives, weapons and rockets; they prepared themselves for battle.

Hard Truths About the Conflict
By Robert J. Lieber
Thursday, January 1, 2009; Page A13
After Israel’s dramatic airstrikes, the world’s media are filled with images of suffering Palestinian women and children, innocent victims in what is being referred to as a renewed cycle of violence. Predictably, both sides are being urged to call a halt, though in much of the Middle East and parts of Europe these demands, and the blame, fall especially heavily upon the Israelis. In America, there is relatively greater understanding and sympathy for Israel, but here, too, concern is growing about the violence.

While the details of the conflict often appear complex, the fundamentals — hard truths about Gaza, its Hamas rulers and the wider Israeli-Palestinian conflict — are straightforward. First, despite the tragic deaths of civilians, Israeli’s airstrikes have been precisely aimed at Hamas fighters, installations and rocket launchers. Inevitably, the use of force causes injury and death to innocents, but from initial figures announced by U.N. personnel, it appears that more than 80 percent of those killed were Hamas security personnel or other militants — a ratio that might compare favorably with the use of force by U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan. In view of Hamas’s practice of deliberately placing missile launchers and other weapons in the midst of densely populated areas, the precision is remarkable. It also reflects the fact that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) seek to minimize civilian deaths, while Hamas deliberately targets civilians.

Second, what we are witnessing is not a “cycle” of violence. The IDF airstrikes are a reaction to the unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks against the Jewish state. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in the hope that the Palestinians would use the opportunity to prepare for an eventual agreement and a two-state solution in which they would live side by side in peace with Israel. Since then, there have been more than 3,500 such attacks aimed at areas of southern Israel, including over 200 launches since Dec. 19, after Hamas chose not to extend a six-month truce. The expanding range of these missiles now covers an area populated by as many as 700,000 Israelis.

And who can do without Fox News when one is searching for objective reporting:

The inconsistency in the Israeli position is truly breathtaking. On the one hand, they justify their attacks on Gaza because of the “thousands” of missiles Hamas is firing on Israel. That is a true statement but also misleading. Most of the Hamas rockets are not carrying high explosives and, despite shooting THOUSANDS OF MISSILES there has been little damage. The Hamas rockets are generally wildly inaccurate and highly ineffective. More people have died in Israel of traffic accidents in the last two days then have died from the rocket/missile strikes. In fact, only four Israelis have been killed so far by these strikes. For the families who have lost a loved one I realize it does not matter whether one million have died. They have lost someone they loved and there is no value an outside observer can assign that will be seen as satisfactory or appropriate.

So what do you say to the mothers and fathers of more than 40 Palestinian children who have died in the Israeli air strikes? More than 400 Palestinians are now dead while Israel has lost four people. Pretending that these are somehow comparable is silly. It is pure bullshit that the Israelis are targeting only “military” targets. Israel declares without a scintilla of proof that they are destroying weapons depots, explosive labs, and rocket storage sites. Yet the rockets keep coming and remain for the most part, largely ineffective.

And I will repeat again (hopefully this point will eventually sink in) that Israel can deal with the rocket/missile threat without hitting the civilian targets. But they refuse to use a concentrated counter battery capability. Israel is pursuing other objectives. They want to weaken and would prefer to destroy Hamas. But the Israeli actions appear to be having the opposite effect in among the Palestinians and much of the rest of the world–rather than being discredited Hamas appears to be winning sympathy and lip service support. The reality is that Israel cannot destroy Hamas, even with its current tactics and approach.

Do you remember back in September 2002 what happened when Israel laid seige to the residence of Yasir Arafat:

Israeli forces took up positions in buildings near Yasir Arafat’s compound in Ramallah today, two days after they complied with American demands and lifted a 10-day siege there.

Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer said the new arrangement was intended to enable Israel to ”put its hands on all those inside who are suspects if they try to come out.”

Palestinian officials said the Israelis had not ended the siege, which began after a suicide bomber killed six Israelis in Tel Aviv on Sept. 19.

Nabil Abu Rudeineh, an adviser to Mr. Arafat, said it remained dangerous for the Palestinian leader and others to leave or enter the compound. ”They are deceiving the Americans,” he said of the Israelis.

Did that operation end the terrorism against Israel? Did that operation make Israel safer? Did that operation push the Palestinians to embrace more moderate leaders? Answer those questions and you will have the answer to the likely consequences of the latest Israeli retaliation. Targeted killing of killers is fine. Hitting hospitals, mosques, and schools is a bad thing and will not make Israel safer. The best thing we can do is have a frank dialogue with Israel, our friend.

  • NoTrollZone

    Thanks Larry.

    • http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

      I always stay away from this topic, mainy because it is so deep and so complex, I don’t truly understand it well enough.

      That said, I was surprised at the comments in the last piece Larry did on this. Any criticism at all of Israel is immediately called *anti-Semitic*. not just called, but screamed. It was shocking – especially reading the diary…there wasn’t anything anti-semitic in there.

      Does being Israeli mean you get a *get out of jail free* card or something? It seems to me that people should be able to criticize actions of the Israeli government without being called anti-semitic.

      Just like people should be able to criticize Obama without being called racist.

      • Magic Puzzle Box

        I often think because of these kinds of shrill responses and easy evaluations of things based on historical grievances of X or Y group that the best thing for everyone is to get a sudden memory loss of anything that happened over ten years ago and to drop the collective memory as well. I know that’s not popular, but my idea is that you can really only get worked up over what happened to you personally, not to someone else or your group or who you saw on television, etc. My corollary law is that once the victim and the victimizer in the original situations are dead, end of story, everyone else is no longer responsible for what they didn’t know about and had no part of. Then all criticism would be aimed merely at an individual, not at them as some kind of symbolic entity of some crime that happened in the distant past that may or may not be widely known. It just seems to be the only way to be fair in my opinion.

      • Andrew P

        Well put, sarainitaly. Unfortunately, I think the answer to Larry’s question “Can we at least acknowledge the propaganda?” is a resounding “No!” for most Americans.

        Look at the recent impact on the electorate of partisan propaganda masquerading as objective news. The same thing has been going on for sixty years on behalf of Israel. Ironically, most of the people I know who are able see any shades of grey at all in the situation are Jewish. (When your own grandfather was a member of the Haganah it’s pretty hard to pretend that terrorism started with the Palestinians.) I had the opportunity to live in the mid-east myself as a young man and started to see things from a wider perspective—which doesn’t equate at all with taking the “other side.” Let alone anti-semitism. Calling people who dare to criticize the Israeli government Nazis and anti-semites dishonors the memory of people who have suffered and died from the real thing.

    • susan

      But didn’t we expect that Israel would go on the offensive if Obama was elected? Obama’s best friends are all PLO supporters, Palestinians, anti-Semites, etc, so I believed all along that Israel would have no choice but to go on the offensive if Obama was elected, just to make a statement to the world that, with or without US support, Israel would not cower from terrorists and would offensively protect its’ borders. I am not convinced that the terrorists would not camouflage themselves as ambulance vehicles near the border, when they have sent innocent women and children to bomb Israelis in the past. They believe they can hide in schools, hospitals and mosques, but Israel has had long experience with these tactics. DO NOT FORGET the Holocaust, and do not allow another to take place. Israel deserves our continued support. They do not ask for reparations, only for peace…for the right to live in peace.

  • Nellie

    Larry,

    Thank you so much for your frankness, and also for your courage. Please watch your back in these difficult times.

    This statement for me says it all:

    In September 2005, Israel vacated Gaza, dismantled all the settlements in the Gaza Strip and did not leave a shred of a presence there.

    Isreal dismanteled the houses in the Gaza settlements, but left the synogogues standing, which was a direct slap in the face to the Palestinians.

    Totally agree – there is propaganda from both sides. Yet the numbers and tragedy’s alone disprove much of what the Isreali government says.

    Ongoing violence is NOT an answer. Could you speak somewhat as to WHY the Bush adminstration is supporting/encouraging this carnage in their final days?

    • http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

      Bush was in a coma when he WASN’T a lame duck. You think he cares what the hell happens now?

      • Nellie

        Does Bush care – nah I don’t think so either.

        What is curious is the timing of this, and I am wondering if there is some type of rational behind it. Doesn’t it seem strange to you that the fading Bush regime is stirring up so much crap, that it may take front and center full time attention for the next 4 years to contain?

        • NoTrollZone

          I, for one, never believe that Shrub was in charge of “his” administration. Nor do I believe that those who ran his pyramid of
          sleaze will be leaving Washington D.C. with the arrival of That one. Gates seems to be set on staying for sleep overs and the majority of Shrub’s war team.
          I’m not seeing much of a changing (ha!) of the guard. So– same BS moves forward another four years.
          The question is, why are these people enabling Israel’s aggression?

          • Mort

            As Larry said, Israel is appearing the friend with a steaming crack problem — everyone can see it, but them.

            If they don’t clean up, they die, they are destroying themselves.

            Given the neocon war mentality, given how the US has jettisoned the Israeli type tactics in the ME, understanding they don’t win wars, I would think they’re letting the Israeli government determine its own fate. It’s all you can do with a junkie, in the end, he’s the only one who can help himself, and until he does, you have the choice to get out of the way, or destroy yourself enabling him.

            • Nellie

              Good response Mort. But in fact isn’t the Bush Administration enabling them based on their responses?

              • Mort

                Bush isn’t the Pentagon, though, right, Presidents come and go… ; )

                The neocons face/faced much internal opposition, I think, given lemons, you make lemonade.

                And you have to figure those CIA and military guys/gals have been around a long time, have seen it all…

    • NoTrollZone

      Nellie,
      I’m wondering the same thing. Why is the Bush administration enabling Israel in this?

      • NoTrollZone

        Well, my mind keeps going back to Iran. Didn’t Hillary make a point of saying (when they passed some legislation giving Shrub some powers of discernment) that is was NOT to be used in any way to go after Iran?
        A couple of months ago, weren’t many in DC and elsewhere very concerned that Bush was going to try and get us into war with Iran?
        The I/P situation (pre escalation) was nearly the status quo (I don’t mean to downplay it in anyway, just point our that is was ongoing…).

        I am concerned that this is some back door way for Bush (or his puppet masters) to go after Iran.

        Iran will certainly do some serious sabre rattling re Israel’s actions in the I/P crisis.

        If Iran takes any form of action, the US will certainly swoop in.

        I don’t believe our government gives a @@@@ about human life– either American, nor anyone elses.
        Is it all about the oil, yet again?

        • truthtelling007

          “Is it all about the oil, yet again?”

          Well you said a lot about how this might involve Iran..but let me start with what this is “all about”, from my view.

          This is not about Oil in the slightest, not for Israel or Hamas. This is pure ideology and bad blood. Now…the reaction elsewhere, if that is what you mean…no, not about oil again, but ideology. In this case it is the “we are an ally of Israel, unwaveringly, at all turns, in our war on terror, until death do us part”.

          I’m not a kool-aide drinker of ideologies. When I encounter them on the right (liberal bashing) or on the left (highbrow bashing of everyone) it doesn’t take long to see the difference between the real world and their myopic (even if factually accurate) view of the world.

          Ideology mixed with Evangelical Left Behind Rapture bullshit has been driving Christian Amercians to support Israel unconditionally and without question. Don’t get me wrong, I know many conscious Christians who are equal in their support and critique for both sides, but by and large the policy is driven by an ill-informed, one sided, and king making thinking on the part of these evangelicals and their like.

          I can’t assume that like minded interests necessarily are equally involved. Cheney and Co would love to knock down Iran right now..no doubt, but who knows if they are being active in this, or just like minded with Israel at this stage. I’d be interested in any inside information on their current actions until out off office.

          If anything this is pride on many sides.

  • helenk

    Yesterday at The Confluence a poster showed how Pallywood stages the scenes from the Gaza Strip and the msm does not even try to verify they are true.
    This sloppy, lazy so-called journalism is inflaming the problem more than ever.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS, BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

    • Mort

      Pallywood?

  • http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

    Gee I hope those three brothers are ok. You know, the ones from the Hamas compound there (AKA “Rafah, Georgia, USA)who donated 35K to Barack Obama that he didn’t report to the FEC. I hate to see things happen to future sure-thing contributors.

    • http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

      Oh and i hope Barack’s election Cold Call Center there in Gaza didn’t get any damage. All those phones and computers…..

      • Nellie

        Uppity,

        Love your snark and humor. Their is an old blessing/curse – “May you live in iteresting times”.

        At our age we paid our dues – is asking for a little peace and quiet during the holidays too much?

        • http://uppitywoman08.wordpress.com Uppity Woman

          Eh, Nellie, I was never much for peace and quiet anyhow. So what’s different?

  • yttik

    I hear you. I agree, the propaganda is unbelievable.I always check the body counts, horrible, but sometimes it’s the only way to see thru the spin. Israel often kills 50 times as many people and they are often civilians.

    We can grind our gears forever about who is right and who is wrong, but that doesn’t change the fact that everytime you kill someone’s child, you inspire a whole new generation of suicide bombers. After decades of the same old, same old, it shouldn’t be rocket science anymore. We shouldn’t be debating over Isreal having a right to defend herself. That’s not what this is about. It’s about how Israel’s response deprives their own people of safety and peace and how that is now depriving others in the world of safety and peace, too.

  • Steve_in_KC

    Hillary should arrange an intervention, Alcoholics Anonymous style. She could secretly assemble a group of Israel’s friends and lie in wait for Israel to walk in, suspecting nothing.

    Then France can quietly block the door while England and Canada take hold of Israel’s hands gently. Hillary can walk up and say, “This is for your own good, Israel. Please have a seat. We need to talk.”

    Israel will protest, of course. “I don’t have a problem! Leave me alone! Everyone’s against me!”

    And so it goes…

    • NoTrollZone

      KC,
      I posted 6 seconds after you and posted pretty much the same thing. How about that? Perhaps we’re all onto something here…

    • Nellie

      Love this response – you may be onto a real solution here.

    • goldengrahme

      An excellent analogy, Steve…but who will be the
      supervising “expert” on addictive behavior? You know, the person who will call the final shots? (No
      pun intended.)

      Israel has a right to be paranoid. “World wisdom” stood by and let Hitler run roughshod over an
      entire country, then set sights on a continent before they countered, reluctantly, his fanatic mania. And many mistakes in strategy cost the lives of countless innocents, not to mention faltering leadership from all sides.

      So sad the real world eschews our advice; hindsight is so much more fruitful than brutal Sunday afternoon scrimage. Monday morning quaterback sessions are usually held with a cup of coffee and apple danish in-hand. Warm and comfortable, detached but still engaged in the big picture.

      An old Arab proverb: ‘The enemy of my enemy is my
      friend.’ I would sure hate to be sitting in Israel and trying to figure out who is my enemy and who their friends might be. I wouldn’t want to put too much stock in either Bush or Obama as final
      arbiters of my future. Israel isn’t the only nation with some self-inflicted bad habits. Seems to be the human condition. The world has learned little from war; why hold Israel up as poster child for universal failure?

      But your point was entertaining. For about one
      minute. Will Hamas be invited to an intervention?
      Or Hizbollah? Or some extreme Wahabi devotees?
      All calling for the destruction of Jews?

      When pigs fly, as they say in Zinzinnati.

      • Mort

        We saw what happened to the US when Cheney used Israel’s methods of war in the ME.

        Why would we enable a country that would harm us, strategically, in the end?

        That’s stupid.

    • http://firefox AnnieCollier

      and then…in classic intervention style, she can have the Palestinians in another room and inform them that “There are no victims, only volunteers” so martyrdom is no longer valid.

    • http://noquarter foxyladi14

      HILLARY,could make this thing work

  • NoTrollZone

    Larry,
    I sure appreciate you staying with this story.
    Other blogs that I have found to be courageous politically are staying away from it completely, or going the “do not question Israel” route.
    Both strategies I find lacking in responsibility.
    I am rather taken aback that people who I thought were discerning and able to look at hard issues
    are now on board the Israel to hell and back bus
    (or just failing to make any kind of statement, whatsoever).
    I think Israel’s friends do need to have a talk with it. I think the level of the needed conversation might have reached the “intervention” level– whereby Israel’s friends all meet together and tell Israel how its behavior is ruining its own life and the lives of those who care for it– not to mention the lives of the Palestinians.

  • ritamary

    Is there anyone here who believes Barack Obama has the courage to have “the talk” with Israel?

    • NoTrollZone

      ah….nope.

    • http://baddemocrat08.wordpress.com obamastolemyboyfriend

      I don’t know about you all, but I don’t think Obama is very pro Israel

    • http://firefox AnnieCollier

      I think whenever Fraudo appears at the podium to speak on international topics, he’d better have a back up of muscle behind him on the stage. On his own, he’ll look like a boy with no authority whatsoever.

  • Mandelay

    Keep at it, please, Larry. The propaganda machine is in high gear and the news shows are filled with talking heads who are, from shining network to shining network, singing their unified talking points. Maybe that’s what “unifying the country” really means … we all get to sing the same song in the same key. This place is one of the few uncensored sources for news analysis and ideas.

  • stodgie

    bush has made so many mistakes in his time in the wh. i agree he enabled israel. not to say that israel shouldn’t protect itself and do what needs to be done, but bush didn’t help the situation. sharon felt that bush gave him the greenlight for just about anything. what to do? i have little confidence that obama will help. you have to be both tough and open to discussion/negociation. clinton tried and came close.

  • http://theheraclitanfire.blogspot.com/ Craig Della Penna

    Larry:

    Glad to see you are acknowledging the propaganda – I assume you meant to add: “from both sides”.

    But, once again, I have to ask: “What’s really going on here?”. This whole crisis is so transparently artificial, so obviously carefully timed that I have to ask myself: What don’t they want us to look at? I find I’ve recently developed a, possibly paranoid, reaction that, when anyone shouts “Hey, look over here.”, my reaction now is to look anywhere but ‘over here’.

    I find myself thinking: if the goal of the manufactured financial crisis of Q4 ’08 was to make sure BHO was dragged over the election line as the winner, then they would want attention diverted from that ‘crisis’ as soon as it had served its purpose. What better way than to create an international military-political crisis that you could turn on and off like tap water? the players are always ready and willing to set their hair on fire and run around screaming: ‘death to XXX” and everybody knows their parts and lines by now…

    So, we have the Hamas puppets start massively increasing their toy rocket attacks, when you ask?, why right after the rigged US election. Israel doesn’t even need to be included in the “in-crowd” they’ll just naturally overreact in their knee-jerk way and start shelling anyone they can see, or even think they can see. Now we have Akmedinejad, pretty much out of central casting at South Park screaming that he has 10 of thousands of students willing to immolate themselves if only they can take a Jew with them. I believe he has actually started with the “annihilate all the Jews” filth again – whoops! Getting ahead of the script there boy, better tone it down a bit, after all we don’t yet have Hezbollah launching Katyushkas onto the Shabbat Farms yet, wait till next week.

    I say again: Israel, the Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah… they’re all pawns, completely without the ability to take charge of their own several destinies. No lasting peace will ever be established by these entities. They can be sacrificed to the last man, woman and child and nothing will change, that’s what pawns are for.

    … they are, however, very useful for the players; who are the players? Iran, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and… us.

    I won’t go into the complex relationships and various theatres of opportunity that obtain and shape the politics between the states mentioned above – there really isn’t the room here, and, Larry, I’m sure you know this stuff all too well. I’ll just say this one thing: it is a classic move for a despotic government to encourage and/or create strife outside its borders in order to divert the attention of its masses from its own internal corruption and manufacture an artificial consensus focused on foreign affairs.

    Sadly, it looks like this is happening as we speak, right here in the United States. This crisis will go on for several more weeks and then fade away, having served it purpose, and BHO will go on to his coronation with all the bubbling controversy over his blatant theft of the ’08 election completely subsumed in the onrushing tide of ‘newscycles’ and ‘breaking news’ and citizen apathy.

    Sad to say it but I think we’ve been ‘had’ yet again…

    • Nellie

      Craig,

      Thanks for this. I believe you just answered most of my question above as to WHY now.

    • NoTrollZone

      Craig, when Larry says “can we at least acknowledge the propaganda” I believe he is clearly pointing out that the US media machine is being heavily pro-Israel instead of reporting in a even-handed way.

      His comments are not directed towards Israel putting a spin on its action or positions, but on our media’s bias.

    • stodgie

      craig, i enjoy how you think. you are a cynic and right on target. always look behind the screen to see how is pulling the levers. that is sooooooo true!

    • Mercedes

      Although this comment strikes me as eminently sensible, I am surprised to be reading it on No Quarter. It seems so paranoid and conspiratorial. Actually, one of us less literate NQ readers could say the same thing with one-tenth the verbiage but the comment would probably be blocked…based on past experience. Larry’s and Mr Della Penna’s comments are basic common sense to many, many people. But it is still good to see the in-crowd try and convince other members of the in-crowd of the error of their ways.

    • Texas Playwright

      Agree with all of the above post. Bankers–Soros, Rockefeller et al–run the USA and picked the puppet fraud to do their dirty work for them. 750 million bucks to pick a puppet and watch Americans and other countries die for greed. Sickening.

    • pacificisland

      Iran is behind this. They want to keep everyone’s attention and resources focused elsewhere as they develop their nuclear weapons.

    • skinny malinky

      “Manufactured financial crisis”? You think trillions of dollars were lost in the economic disaster because mysterious forces wanted to get Obama elected? How would they possibly benefit enough to make up for their huge financial losses? Who, exactly, would be behind this massive conspiracy? How did they know, before Obama was even elected to the Senate, to start issuing all these crazy sub-prime loans and credit-default swaps in preparation for Obama’s eventual campaign?

    • http://firefox AnnieCollier

      I find I’ve recently developed a, possibly paranoid, reaction that, when anyone shouts “Hey, look over here.”, my reaction now is to look anywhere but ‘over here’.

      Yes, indeedy. I feel the same way.

      And in reference to an earlier post about “intervention”, both sides are completely co-dependent on the ongoing situation. Easy to set off their triggers.

      After he solves the crisis in the ME and sets the economy right (do you think Soros can help?), he can use the drug cartel war ongoing and almost out of control on our southern border. He has so many covers to deflect attention to what he’s up to.

  • candymarl

    The sad part is is that the MSM rarely shows the pictures of Israelis and Palestinians marching side by side desperate for peace.

    I’ve seen these demonstrations mostly on alternative media.

    Most of the folks caught in the crossfire are sick of the conflict.

    The leaders, on both sides, aren’t listening or just don’t care.

    As Mr. Johnson says terrorists bombings, aerial assaults, troop incursions, launching random missiles, none of these tactics have worked.

    What’s that definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

    Well…..

  • Shtuey Shtuey

    Hamas declares war on Juice.

    http://shtueynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/

    • candymarl

      That is hilarious! I know the situation is grim but that’s damn funny!

      • Shtuey Shtuey

        Just trying to break the tension. It’s times like this that we need to remember to laugh at the stupid. That’s one of the advantages of not being where the rockets are falling, on either side of the fence.

        • http://firefox AnnieCollier

          The protester is the Woody Allen of Hamas. Remember in Annie Hall? Allen feeling paranoid about people constantly referencing Jews as in didyouse eat?

          Thanks, I needed that. Down with Juice.

  • http://vbonnaire.wordpress.com vbonnaire

    I’m so glad you have stayed on track with this story, Larry. Now, why is there a political risk in voicing opinions about Israel in what looks like a humanitarian crisis?

    It seems to me that the same sort of “silence” enabled Hitler to come to power in WWII. The post WWII world has MEMORY intact about that. We do.

    I get my news from the BBC. Plain and simple.

    No HUMANITARIAN is going to be silent when we see a wrong. We won’t. Kids in their 20′s and 30′s can use the wikipedia and learn all about WWII.

    France was very concerned, right away, to call a halt.

    Americans like us are speaking out because we sense a wrong before our eyes, unfolding. Bully on Bully won’t cut it. It won’t. And the world knows it. If we start letting Bullies run the world, who will be the next one? Which country will the next one come from?

    We have the United Nations. And we have the Geneva Convention as truthteller? I think it was mentioned the other day.

    Let’s look further into the news before we pass judgement — this hed just off Reuters:

    Iran Nobel laureate accused of Israeli bias: activist

    This is a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

    In my opinion the only PRIZE worth winning in the whole world. But, people have to have a dialogue to get there. They have to. “Broker the PEACE” and make a TRUCE. We are all war weary. I think this whole world wants PEACE. Especially if people have not had any, ever.

    If a NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER — A PEACE PRIZE WINNER! is getting bullied — how is this world going to heal? One of my greatest teachers, James Hillman would be rolling in his sleep about now, as I am, at the events of the world. I wish you and your scholarly friend who wrote the previous article were running things in Washington. They need you!

  • graywolf

    It appears that Larry Johnson and Pat Lang are “Arabists” or at least Palestinian sympathizers.
    Isn’t there an Arab phrase?:
    “My friend is the enemy of my enemy.”

    Hamas is virulently anti-American and an openly terrorist organization.
    Israel is a western democracy and a friend of the US.
    Granted, Israel has been a taker and bully in that area since 1947, BUT…that’s yesterday’s news.
    Besides, when did “fair” or someone’s idea of “fair” become a basis for foreign policy?

    If Larry, and Pat Lang, are motivated by US national interests, how is that national interest furthered – in any way – by the existence of terrorist organizations, friendly to Iran, no less?

    • candymarl

      Well God forbid Palestinians should be viewed as human as Israelis.

      BTW Palestinians are Semites same as the Israelis.

      • pacificisland

        I am very sympathetic to the Palestinians, but not to Hamas or their puppet masters – Iran. Please recall that Hamas was NOT elected, but with Iran’s financial and military backing, attacked and defeated the Fatah party, and then took over Gaza. Why? To follow their puppet masters’ orders and wage one prong of a multi-pronged “squeeze” against the State of Isreal.

      • workingclass artist
    • Mort

      For your opinion to be considerd viable, you first have to show objectivity about Israel, it’s motives and actions, the NET effects of its military strategy on it’s world strategic position.

      You don’t, you spew simple invective.

      It’s a dead giveaway.

      If you’ve ever dealt with an addict in denial, you’d understand why your arguements, your statements, are fatuous.

    • athy

      Graywolf,
      Please dont be too quick to label people.
      There are MANY Jewish people (and other groups) who are STRONGLY opposed to what Israel is doing.
      These people ARE NOT anti-semites.

      Unfortunately, our msm has marginalized their voices so you hear very little from them/about them.

      Here is a link to an EXCELLENT documentary that can be viewed on line -FREE OF CHARGE-that gives an overview of the US relationship to Israel,
      the msm propaganda machines, and much more.

      Noam Chomsky and others are interviewed…

      P.S Larry-thank you for your excellent articles on this topic.Thank you for your courage to speak out and educate.

      http://www.freedocumentaries.org/theatre.php?filmid=169&id=1031&wh=1000×720

    • JulieD

      It does Israel no good to give an inch, much less a West Bank.

      Maybe Israel should use larger and larger strikes to ensure that Hamas understands that the bombing will stop – when Hamas stops bombing.

      • Strawberrybitch

        Yeah, that really workrd in Iraq.

      • Idiocracy08

        The West Bank is not theirs to give.

      • Mort

        Istaeli generals, and military strategy, leave something to be desired.

        Big difference between the hype, and the reality.

    • Baba Rum Raisin

      I’d be upset if any man said a word against the character or purity of my Sainted Granny.

      However, she WAS, occasionally, imperious, tunnel-visioned and full of shit…

      So are our dear friends in Israel.

      Pointing this out does NOT make me anti-Semitic, nor pro-Arab or pro-Islam.

      It DOES make me a guy who’d like to go BACK to Danny’s in Haifa for a cold Maccabee and to shmooze with the young Sabra chicks without having to wear a radiation suit…

    • workingclass artist

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003131.php
      just wanted to post a link on related matters.
      I think this is another chapter in the “Crusades”
      a WAR on all things western as defined by Islamic Miliant Extremists funded by the Saudis and the Persians.

  • Shtuey Shtuey

    The Qassam rockets may not be explosive. They may be inaccurate. Still, high percentages of children in Sderot suffer from post traumatic stress. Human Rights Watch has condemned the attacks, as well as Israel’s.

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/11/20/letter-hamas-stop-rocket-attacks

    The people of Gaza have the unalienable right to be free from rockets being fired at them, as do the people of Israel…regardless of the type that are fired. Larry, I know you understand that, and have repeatedly stated same. I’m still waiting for much of the commenters here to start getting that as well.

    As has been the case in the region for decades; two stupids don’t make a smart, or peace. How about we stop beating the dead horse here and start talking about what’s really important: how do we find a middle path that provides freedom, peace, and security for the children in Gaza and the children in Israel?

    Bungler, and former Sharon trial balloon, Ehud Olmert has said that any truce must come with international monitors to police both sides. That’s the most intelligent thing I’ve heard come out of his mouth since…let me think about that…

    Getting Hamas out of the picture, whether you agree with their genocidal policy vis a vis Israel or not, has to go. As long as they are a player Israel will always have a built in and acceptable reason to say no to talks. The first rule of international diplomacy is that you can’t make a sovereign nation negotiate with a party that is sworn to destroy it. I don’t hear anyone sane advocating talks with Osama bin Laden. Let me know if you do.

    In spite of talk that Hamas might adopt recognition of Israel into its platform in 2006, that did not happen. And even if it did, that’s about as trustworthy as Olmert saying there won’t be any more settlements built in the West Bank. In all fairness, houses don’t kill people as a rule (FEMA trailers being one of the exceptions), they just piss off a lot people, which doesn’t help.

    So does anyone here give a shit about the solution, or will NQ just continue to be a platform for saying Israel fucked up? I think Olmert deserves a little credit. He’s not fucking this up nearly as bad as he fucked up Lebanon in 2006, though he’d be hard pressed to accomplish that. Lebanon was a fiasco.

    And as long as people are going to advocate interventions for Israel, let’s have one for Hamas, and Hezbullah, or is killing Jews okay? Be fair UDHR applies to everyone, not just the people you think are right.

    And two editorials and FOX News is hardly a constant drumbeat. CBS, NBC, ABC (especially when notorious Jew hater Peter Jennings was alive), CNN, MSNBC, the BBC, and NPR are all operating with anti-Israel bias. Then of course there’s Reuters who loves nothing more than running doctored photographs as they did in 2006 during the Lebanon fiasco. Let’s stay in the realm of reality shall we? And Diana Bhuttu is a propagandist extraordinaire schooled in the Arafat era. She’s as credible as a $3 bill. So liars are okay as long as their Palestinian liars? Again, this isn’t helping resolve the problem.

    • Idiocracy08

      I wish both sides could agree to the 2 state solution. One that would be fair to both sides, with the water distribution being fair, etc…

      Try to work with Abbas. He’s gotta be better than Hamas.

      Don’t occupy or control borders. The British promised both sides something that they couldn’t deliver. Let the UN send peacekeeping people in to watch over the Palestinians to help keep terrorist organizations at bay.

      Stop the settlements in West Bank.

      I think it’s very important to educate the younger Palestinians that suicide bombings are NOT the way to go. The kids there need education and to see a light at the end of the tunnel.

      I read this:

      According to a study conducted by the Gaza Community Mental Health Program, every Palestinian child has been exposed to over nine shocking events. The study added that 95.6% of children have seen images of the wounded and dead, and 95% have been affected by the sounds of explosions. The study further indicated that all children have been exposed to some kind of psychological shock whereby 60% of children have experienced moderate psychological shock, 6.7% have experienced minor psychological shock, while 33.3% have experienced major psychological shock. The study indicated that 15.6% suffer from minor post-traumatic disorder, 62.2% suffer moderately, while 20% suffer severely.

      Then these children are being taught by people like Hamas. This has got to stop.

      The problem is that both sides feel that if they negotiate with the other, it will be seen as weak. It’s almost like they have to accept to be defeated in their cause, in order to create peace. The Jews will have to accept they cannot have all of Palestine. And the Palestinians will have to accept that they cannot have all of Palestine.

      • stodgie

        borders have to be controlled. that is a given. otherwise you have chaos. the terrorists of course would love that. and the un? controlling terrorists? that is so not going to happen. it has to start with the countries in the middle east controlling their own problems. another unintended consequence of bush’s terrible decisions is chaos and terrorists in iraq. yeah i know it’s better now but saddam was tough on those guys overall.

        • Idiocracy08

          I would agree to the other arab countries, as long as Israel would feel safe.

          Even though I’ve been arguing the side of the Palestinian people, I want Israel to be strong. I want that for both sides.

      • TeakwoodKite

        Let the UN send peacekeeping people in to watch over the Palestinians to help keep terrorist organizations at bay.

        From what I read during the Lebanon incursion by Isreal, the UN peace keepers were described as not reacting to Hizballah’s blatent violations of agreements. This being prior to the invasion of Lebanon by Israel.

        One of the problems was the failure of UN peacekeepers to indertict arms. At one point during the conflict Hizballah’s was using UN positions as fire bases. Israel took one out.

        If anyone has insight on this point, I am all string.

    • interested party

      Getting Hamas out of the picture,…(it?)has to go

      Your wrong Shtuey. Hamas is not Bin Laden. The Israel government itself understands this (even if some of the posters here do not) and is manuerving to stop the rocket attacks, not rid itself of Hamas. Olmert, as you state is not a fool, and would settle for a negotiated settlement (with Hamas), provided some third party mechanism could be installed to insure provisions are met.
      This from Haaretz:

      Olmert, for his part, has conditioned any future truce between Israel and Hamas on the establishment of an international mechanism to monitor the cease-fire.

      And this:

      According to Jerusalem sources, Olmert’s conditions for a truce were passed on to the United States and other entities in the international community. The U.S. is trying to “sell” Israel’s conditions to other groups, including those that talk to Hamas.

      A negotiated truce with safeguards makes sense from Israel’s perspective as well as Hamas. Israel avoids the risk a casualties with a ground offensive, stops rocket attacks on the South and Hamas gains crowing rights for “standing up to Israel”. Is this a permanant solution? No, but an agreement between Hamas and the Israel government is a step in the right direction.

    • truthtelling007

      “The Qassam rockets may not be explosive. They may be inaccurate. Still, high percentages of children in Sderot suffer from post traumatic stress.”

      Cry me a fucking river here…your bias for one side over the other is very clear.

      While I do care that the people of Sderot feel safe, and that they are suffering…let me ask you….

      What is the weight of a child with ptsd to the death of 5 or your own kids?

      Would you rather bury your daughters or help them with ptsd? At least with ptsd, they are still there to treat.

      Why is it, that to people like you, Palestinians don’t fucking matter? There are almost 500 dead people and you are crying about stress!!!!!
      What the fuck is wrong with you guys?

      HOLD TWO THOUGHTS IN YOUR HEAD AT THE SAME TIME PLEASE!!!!

      Hamas rockets cause stress…
      Israel strikes kill people…

      You are not helping your case here.

      “The first rule of international diplomacy is that you can’t make a sovereign nation negotiate with a party that is sworn to destroy it.”

      Fine, but there are a huge amount of options that live between “negotiate” and “annihilate”.

      Just because I wouldn’t go negotiate with Bin Laden doesn’t mean I’ll nuke Pakistan and Afghanistan to the ground to get my target. That is the Rumsfeld school of idiot militarism. That is the chickenhawks method of getting their guy. It is an idiot maneuver.

      What I’m getting sick of the extreme dualism that has no basis in reality and are almost intentionally limiting thought here. Negotiate means surrender to idiots. Annihilate is the method of the moron.

      Israel just created another generation of resistance with its actions of the past week.
      They deserve to feel safe in their own homes, absolutely, and I don’t think you’ll find anyone…and I ask you to show me one post that does here at NQ….nobody advocated for Hamas here.

      Fine me one person….just one…on here who advocated FOR Hamas.

      “And as long as people are going to advocate interventions for Israel, let’s have one for Hamas, and Hezbullah, or is killing Jews okay?”

      Again…i’m really restraining my healthy “Fuck you” for such an insulting comment….
      nope..sorry, Fuck you for asking anyone here if “killing Jews” is ok…because you are just dumbing down the argument again.

      There were “interventions” with Hamas. Or did you ignore that all their assets were frozen after they won election? They have been selected by the people to represent them, but then dismissed by the foreign entities who have labeled them a “terrorist” organization. So what “intervention” are you asking for?

      And I am not asking for an Intervention on Israel. I’m asking for a comprehensive strategy including exit strategy, maintenance strategy, and for Israel to abide by the treaties they sign with us and others. If they can’t honor those treaties regarding human rights, then I want consequences.

      I don’t play favorites folks outside one place on earth…I really love Scotland. Outside that..and because nobody cares if England steals from my people…you are all the same. You fight with each other and I’ll hold you both accountable. If one is more powerful, more moral, more wise..then I hold them to a higher standard than the scum they may fight with.

      What is wrong with you on this topic when you can’t distinguish Palestinian human beings from Hamas. Well let me spell it out for you jackass, I’m not a Republican or Democrat and yet Republicans and Democrats do things all the time with our military that I completely abhor. So does that suddenly make me a Republican or Democrat in responsibility in the rest of the world? NO!
      Nor does it make Palestinians automatic members of Hamas.

      Republicans won enough power over the last 8 years to run our government into the fucking ground with the tacit support of their Democratic colleagues…I suppose that means I voted them in to do that, even though I didn’t.

      That is the logic you stupid asses keep using regarding “Palestinians voted in Hamas”.

      There is clearly a huge problem of anti-semitic crap going on here and it isn’t against the Jews in this conversation. Its against the Palestinians who have all be written off by you guys as just vermin who are either terrorists, mothers of terrorists, sisters of terrorists, or will be terrorists soon. Sorry, but your shit stinks.

      So let me ask you it this way then dumbass:
      “is killing Jews okay?”
      no…
      Is killing Palestinians okay?
      Well, to you apparently so, because you haven’t shown any outrage at having over 400 killed in a week.
      You just want to sit here and lob insults at dead men like Peter Jennings. Who the fuck are you to label him, after his death no less, as a “jew hater”.

      Enough with your race baiting crap.

      “So does anyone here give a shit about the solution”

      What is your solution genius? To keep calling people “jew haters”? Is that a solution?
      Is your solution to ask stupid questions like “Is it ok to kill a Jew”..as anyone here even thinks this is a viable question?

      “then of course there’s Reuters who loves nothing more than running doctored photographs as they did in 2006 during the Lebanon fiasco.”

      Actually the fired that photographer, just so you know. And they implemented a check system to make sure people wouldn’t doctor photos they sent in. I’ve submitted photos to Reuters. I know what changes were made, so now that I can see you don’t know what you’re fucking talking about…would you like to allege another anti-Israel conspiracy in the news?

      “So liars are okay as long as their Palestinian liars?”

      Are liars ok if they are Israeli liars?

      I don’t give a rats ass about either side above another. They are human beings. I abhor people who are anti-Jewish easily. But I will not ignore those who are anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian any less bigoted than the former.

      I’ve been watching the anti-Palestinian (in the guise of being anti-Hamas) for days now, so you can’t pull the wool over my eyes bucko.

      Stop Hamas rockets.
      But don’t go plowing through an urban area filled with civilians and not call it a war crime. Because that is what “collective punishment” is…a war crime.

      Israel is supposed to have the finest special forces in the world. We have mythologized their expertise in terrorism for decades. And to her credit, Israel does have some amazing moments in anti-terrorism action, truly. But this isn’t one of them and she’s only creating more resistance, generational resistance, with these strikes.

      And last, to the complete and utter shithead who said that Israel needs to:

      “Maybe Israel should use larger and larger strikes to ensure that Hamas understands that the bombing will stop – when Hamas stops bombing.”

      JulieD, you are a walking war crime for even saying this.

    • pacificisland

      Fox alternates the news on the conflict with a Palestinian journalist one hour, and then an Isreali spokesperson the next. You see both sides reported on Fox. And, yes, two wrongs don’t make a right and all lives – Palestinian and Isreali are precious.

  • AF catfish

    The title of this post is just golden. Could apply to so many events of the past decade. Very apt for the current event to which it is addressed.

    Golden.

  • CTN

    Larry,

    This post suffers from a classic case of strawman argumentation, whereby you have completely misrepresented the facts vis-à-vis Israel’s air strikes in Gaza, to condemn their response as immoral. Your conclusion may be correct, however, you undermine it, as well as your credibility, when you frame your argument with falsehoods.

    For the sake of honesty, if for no other reason, I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge the religious ideology that drives HAMAS, rather than pooh-pooh their unrelenting attacks against Israel as doing “little damage.” The “little damage” argument ignores the positive and ongoing threat posed by HAMAS, while it imposes on Israel the moral obligation to ignore this threat because of its impotence. Obviously, it’s easy for you to insist that Israel allow HAMAS to gore its ox — as long as they leave your ox alone. But since HAMAS does not threaten your property or the people in your charge, it’s difficult for me to recognize your high ground in this instance.

    It does not matter one bit whether Israel has suffered no casualties or 1,000,000 casualties during HAMAS’ senseless and indiscriminate attacks. It does matter, however, that HAMAS poses a constant threat to Israel, and it does matter whether or not Israel conducts itself as a sovereign state that is responsible to protect both its borders and its citizens, which is a point that you refuse to recognize so I’ll write it again: Israel has an absolute moral obligation to protect its borders and citizens from encroaching enemies.

    Moreover, it is patently dishonest to compare Palestinian families’ loses during this conflict with the loses of Israeli families. One side instigated this war by inflicting indiscriminate terror, including death, against their neighbor; the other side responded in like and has demonstrated that they have been exceedingly patient and longsuffering with their neighbor because they could crush them with ease, if they so desired.

    • Mort

      Moreover, it is patently dishonest to compare Palestinian families’ loses during this conflict with the loses of Israeli families

      Do you hear yrourself?

      Your suffering is special, I see.

      That is simply nuts.

      And personally, I dont think the Israeli neocons want peace, the wars give their government a purpose.

      So, let them fall.

      • pacificisland

        Please provide facts and thoughtful analysis to support your positions. The Isrealis are desperate for peace. How many times have they been attacked by their Arab neighbors, bent on destroying them? And which country keeps calling for Isreal’s annhilation as its government funds Hamas and Hezbollah, enemies surrounding Isreal in Gaza, Syria, and Lebanon? As CTN said above:

        Israel has an absolute moral obligation to protect its borders and citizens from encroaching enemies.

        If Canada or Mexico kept lobbing rockets into your cities and towns(for years), killing your citizens, and sending suicide bombers in to kill your civilians, and remained dedicated to your destruction, you would be screaming for your government to do something.

  • TeakwoodKite

    or just failing to make any kind of statement, whatsoever.

    This is where I have found myself to a large degree. I am “prism-ed” by many years of propaganda.

    Pictures do not lie. Innocent people are dying, for want of the better use of technology.

    Humans are dying for wanting.

    After that, anyway I go, who am I to judge?
    Well, I see myself in that position as a being as a cop out.
    If I voice support for the Palestinians, then I am lending support to Hamas, who I abhor?
    If I voice support for Israel I am lending support for the her right of self defense in a way that is not appropriate?

    A fork in the road; one the road to perdition, the other the other to salvation. Hell if I can tell which with all MSM Syops going on. For decades.
    Silence.

    • workingclass artist

      interesting Teak….sometimes pictures do lie.
      Remember that “dead” boy cradeled by his grieving father in the edited footage about 6-8 months ago?
      The French Press obtained the entire footage and the “dead boy” got back up with Daddy and walked away.
      Truth is we live in an age where “journalists” have become so accustomed to “adjustment” to stay on message that perhaps a healthy skepticism is the smartest choice….Diligent inquiry if possible…And careful consideration…( I speak as one who was taken in by the carved cheek fiasco at the height of the election…that was humbling and a good reminder for me )

  • jeremy

    love your logic, there crappy rockets and have bad aim so who cares. very interesting theory

  • Pieter B

    Thanks for the attempt at being “fair and balanced,” Larry. I believe that Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself, but far too often Israel makes it difficult, if not impossible, to defend its tactics or long-term strategy.

    The situation has been treated so simplistically for so long in this country that it is just about impossible to discuss it rationally with anyone. There is a far greater diversity of opinion on the Palestinian question within Israel than within the United States, but you’d never know it unless you make a great effort to search out primary Israeli sources.

  • EWard

    Larry

    The best explanation for the Gaza attacks comes from James Lewis in the American Thinker. Israel’s greatest enemy is Iran with nuclear weapons. The Israelis are waging a proxy campaign in the Gaza to neutralize or scare Hamas to test and probe the “weaknesses in the Iranian-style Hamas defenses.” Lewis describes the Israeli actions as “reconnaissance in force” on many levels. If and when Israel is forced to confront Iran, the IDF is trying to assess Iranian military tactics beforehand.

    Lewis notes that there are political and military ramifications of Israel’s actions. However, the bottom line is this will be a long-distance campaign using air and artillery ending around January 20. Israel will not risk a ground conflict because they have other enemies that are more dangerous than Hamas.

    FYI, “Hamas is estimated to have 15,000 trained gunmen in Gaza” with another 5,000 belonging to other radical jihadist groups.

    • Mort

      If and when Israel is forced to confront Iran, the IDF is trying to assess Iranian military tactics beforehand.

      They’re not fighting ww2, I find amazing the lack of understainding in regard to modern day asymmetric war, and how Israel is trolled.

      Israel can’t be baited, dragged down and destroyed in a guerilla war?

      If we recognize these tactics in terms of how Cheney was going to fight in the ME, why can’t we recognize, admit, how Israel is fighting?

      We’re appalled when Cheney and Bush want to go into Iran, simply becuase, in part, it’s failed strategy, yet somehow Israel, from whom Cheney takes his cue, will be exempt, will be spared?

      It’s HORRIFIC military strategy on the part of Israel, horrific.

    • workingclass artist
    • pacificisland

      One wonders if they plan to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities before the Inauguration – and this, of course, depends on what happens in Isreali government politics/elections.

  • http://vbonnaire.wordpress.com vbonnaire
  • interested party

    For insight into U.S. involvement in the Gaza conflict I recommend this April 2008 article from Vanity Fair:
    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

    It is long, but worth reading as outlines the Bush Administration’s contribution to the problem. In this article, Israel has very little direct involvement with any of the shenanigans the Bush-Rice team and indeed with some quotes, questions administration strategy in trying to rid of a problem it created.

  • http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/ M. Simon

    The only way to put a stop to all this fighting is to give Hamas what it wants. They are not unreasonable.

    They openly call for the death of all Jews in the world.

    Is that too much to ask?

    • Mort

      Hyperbole is not a sound basis by which to run a war.

  • http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/ M. Simon

    The Jews will have to accept they cannot have all of Palestine. And the Palestinians will have to accept that they cannot have all of Palestine.

    The Palestinians got Gaza. The Israelis got rocketed from Gaza.

    Where exactly is the incentive to turn over more land to the Palestinians.

    • Idiocracy08

      How easily we forget the West Bank. There are still settlements there, and the Israeli government keeps approving more money for more settlements.

      I don’t really see how they got Gaza anyway. Controlled borders; wall going up in Gaza making it impossible for some to get to work or school; cutting off water, etc…

      How about the incentive that settlements are illegal. How about the fact that it’s not THEIR land to “turn over”? I guess those aren’t good enough for you.

  • glennmcgahee

    Every lead-off talking point I saw yesterday put the focus on Iran. Hamas receives support, money and of course, the rockets, from Iran. We never saw any follow-up after Israel bombed the shit out of Lebanon. Since that violence with Hezbollah ceased, we could have been all over it. Learning what changed in Lebanon as they have re-built. Any agreements that were reached, regrets extended. Instead, we took our focus off as soon as the live explosions were done. There was nothing else for our media to cover. If it bleeds, it leads obviously still applies. I do beleive this is sabre-rattling at Iran just before the one takes office. How to incorporate all this into the speech Obama plans for his first outreach to the Muslim/Arab world? Ah yes, hope and change, thats it. Plus, the color of Obama’s face will make a world of difference to the Muslims.

    • stodgie

      the arabs don’t give a dang about the color of obama’s skin. they have more important things to worry about it seems. that is a fantasy of the campaign and our pathetic press. they also could care less what his middle name is also. they care about how he handles himself and what he does. so he can’t trade on it forever. he has to get off his backside and do something positive. i won’t hold my breath.

  • goldengrahme

    Am I being censored?

    • http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

      I went and checked the spam filter and found a meesage from you. i posted it. still checking for more, but it might be because your comment was very long. the new spam filter seems to be very touchy. i get thrown in there a lot, too.

  • basil

    At the risk of being labeled an extremist, I have ZERO sympathy for a regime which practices polygamy and woman suppression.

    Nizar Rayan, the Hamas militant leader killed Thursday had FOUR WIVES! Don’t you think most (male) Hamas followers would have more wives if they could ‘afford’ it?

    I have as little sympathy for people who ‘choose’ to live under such repressive policies as I would for Islamists who demand “Sharia” Law.

    Maybe if there was gender equality I would be more inclined to denounce Israel. For now, at least Israel grants women equal rights and that’s enough to tip the scales in their favor, IMHO.

    • JulieD

      Basil –

      I couldn’t agree more!

  • DAB

    Unfortunately, because of George Bush’s non-action and Obama’s campaign rhetoric strongly favoring Israel, it appears to the Arab world that the US cannot be a fair broker between the two parties and I believe we have really lost any clout that we had in the past.

    I sometimes think that if Hamas were not summarily dismissed when they initially won that they may have become more moderate and things could have been different.

    Since Bill Clinton was seen as a honest broker between the two parties when he was President, it is possible that Hillary and/or her envoys may be able to influence the situation some but the whole thing certainly is terribly disturbing.

    It is ironic to me that the Jews lament has always been “never again” regarding their previous travails but they should also try to put themselves in others shoes and make sure that it never happens to others too.

  • workingclass artist

    http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis/testimonies/index.htm
    Basil…you might be interested in these folks as they are courageous…fighting an uphill battle toward enlightenment…

    • basil

      Thanks WKA,

      I bookmarked it and will read it later.

      • workingclass artist

        no problem Basil… These folks and others stand at the forefront of a long delayed reformation…

  • mountainaires

    There is propaganda everywhere, mostly in the US press, if you ask me. If people read Haaretz or even the Jerusalem Post, you can get a much more informed view, and the British press are a good source of information. B’tselem is another good source. I encourage people to read Israel press, British press and journalists like Amira Haas, Ran HaCohen, Uri Avnery, historians like Avi Shlaim and Ilan Pappe. There’s no substitute for investigating a subject yourself, instead of just believing propaganda.

    Israeli Defense Forces have a propaganda site:

    http://idfspokesperson.com/

    Israeli Human Rights Groups Report from the field in new blog:

    http://gazaeng.blogspot.com/

    Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories:

    http://www.btselem.org/English/

    • stodgie

      yes the israeli press is more open and has more dissenting opinions than you will see in our corporate controlled suckup press.

      • Mort

        Right, and sometimes we forget it’s not the Israeli people we are disgusted with, it’s the Israeli neocons, the same as their corrupt counterparts, Cheney, and Bush.

        But unfortunately, we’re not presented a balanced view in our press, the same old crew who sold us Obama, (those with a tingle up their leg) are selling us “Sharon”.

  • Texas Playwright

    Okay, I read all the comments and am glad Hillary will be around to explain this Gaza/ME story in a way We the People can understand. That’s what I miss most about her–educating us about issues.

  • xax

    “thousands” of missiles Hamas is firing on Israel. That is a true statement but also misleading. Most of the Hamas rockets are not carrying high explosives and, despite shooting THOUSANDS OF MISSILES there has been little damage.

    I’m noticing a pattern

    At first Israel was wrong because they were dropping tons of bombs on Gaza compared with only 200-300 from Hamas. Now that figure is wrong, and it turns out Hamas has been dropping thousands of bombs compared to hundreds as before. But now Israel is still wrong because Hamas rockets are inaccurate or carry low explosive material (big bomb vs little bomb). Here I thought a d*mn bomb was a bomb. This is the problem with moral relativism, made even more evident by the use of some unrelated statistic dealing with car crashes and comparing that with rocket attacks.

    Last UN stat put the death of civilians at 51 as of 12/29 out of 364 as of 12/30. An innocent civilian is an innocent civilian, it shouldn’t have happened and I offer honest prayers to these affected people, but the world is not perfect. Statistics are cold things, but considering that about 85% of the people dead are not civilians (ie combatants) how can you continue to assert that Israel is not using targeted methods to get rid of Hamas?

    You talk about pro Israel propaganda and inconsistencies, while putting out your own. I mean really?

    • Idiocracy08

      Considering all Israeli’s must serve by the age of 28, most Israeli’s aren’t considered just civilians. They have fought or will fight against Palestine.

      There are also plenty of people that have or will immigrate to Israel to serve. This is when it becomes a religious war in my opinion.

  • Sassy

    I saw injured, terrified children on the news last night.
    Isn’t that enough to show people, on BOTH sides, that it is time for a new resolution?
    Generation after generation mired in the same pit! Enough already!

    • pacificisland

      Sassy, have you ever seen those Hamas propaganda videos? They teach their children – beginning when they are toddlers – to hate the Jews. The tiny tots dress up as Hamas fighters, complete with suicide vests,and march about singing about the destruction of Isrea. Martrydom and hatred of the Jews are bred into the children. There is a special on Fox (tonight I believe) about a Hamas member who escaped the Hamas movement. I would like to see some dialogue about that show here, after it airs. Yesterday, someone posted an article by a Muslim doctor and reformer (it appeared in the Jerusalem Post this week), noting that the Palestinians were in charge of their own destiny. They needed to get Hamas to stop firing the rockets and find a way to live in peaceful coexistence with Isreal. Hard to do when you and your prime sponsor (Iran) are dedicated to the destruction of Isreal.

  • workingclass artist
  • Murray

    That just does it. If I another quote, “ONLY 4 deaths”, I’m gonna blow chunks right on Larry’s otherwise-keen page.
    If terrorists were lined up in Canada or Mexico, blasting hand-made missiles into the USA, and ONLY killed 4 people, there would be a uproar!
    Larry, you really must stop minimizing the fear and death that is occurring in Isreal at the hands of those whose only wish is to destroy Isreal.
    4 people. 4 dead, innocent people.

  • Murray

    That just does it. If I read another quote, “ONLY 4 deaths”, I’m gonna blow chunks right on Larry’s otherwise-keen page.
    If terrorists were lined up in Canada or Mexico, blasting hand-made missiles into the USA, and ONLY killed 4 people, there would be a uproar!
    Larry, you really must stop minimizing the fear and death that is occurring in Isreal at the hands of those whose only wish is to destroy Isreal.
    4 people. 4 dead, innocent people.

    • xax

      Thank you.

      • Mort

        It doesnt help to fight a war emotionally, from your fears, you will lose.

        And that is the greater point, in the end.

        Israels methods failed for the US, (from the press control, to the tactics of war), in the ME, why do you assume Israel will survive, waging prepetaul war?

        Flat out, it won’t, and it will be the fault of the neocons.

        Sixty years, right? Just like every other poorly managed government before it.

  • Murray

    Israel

  • workingclass artist

    http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD216708
    this is what is goin on…and what Israel deals with…

  • jim

    Incisively brilliant as always, Charles Krauthammer’s Washington Post column exposes the gross amorality and resulting logical fallacy of Larry Johnson’s post and offers an antidote to the ignorance of the preponderance of commenters in this thread. Johnson, on the other hand, is not ignorant, leaving one to surmise that he must simply have another, albeit hidden, agenda.

    Johnson conveniently omitted the following morally clarifying fact from his post. Note that it is reported by the AP and it also serves as the lead-in sentence for Krauthammer’s column.

    Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.

    – Associated Press, Dec. 27

    • xax

      So… they gave them warning too?

      Hmm didn’t know that one.

      • workingclass artist

        yes…the IDF called and dropped leaflets in targeted neighborhoods…

    • Idiocracy08

      Please.

      Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.

      do the civilian people know where the militants MIGHT have stashed weapons?

      • NoTrollZone

        It is rather beyond silly. I suppose all Palestinians have cell phones. “Hey, honey, the
        Isareli government is calling… I can see it on the caller ID.”
        And of course those cell phones need to be plugged in. And I’m sure the Israeli government has restored electricty to all areas concerned.
        And we’ve seen the incredible quality of intelligence that the Israeli military is using in this matter. So I’m sure they know exactly which houses have any kind of arsenal sequestered in them.. And I’m sure those Palestinians who actually have homes left feel very comfortable living on the streets right now– if perhaps they feel that Israel’s warning means that they will be targeting residential areas as they have been.
        So, this is the new justification….. “but we called them…”
        The brilliant CK indeed. Yes, he is always brilliant.

        • Andrew P

          Thank you.

  • islander

    Israel set to launch ground war against Hamas
    Hundreds of troops and tanks are poised to roll into Gaza overnight in an attempt to end Hamas attacks, The Times has learnt…timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5434559.ece

  • CamdenRave

    I don’t doubt the suffering caused by Israel’s bombing of Gaza, and I don’t doubt that many innocents are victims. Of course, had Hamas not been launching missiles against the population of Israel Gaza would have been left undisturbed.

  • rukidding

    Dear Larry And Gang,

    1. Hamas is a terrorist organization
    2. Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza
    3. Hamas’ charter does not recognize the
    existence
    4. Hamas’ stated objective is to drive
    Jews into the sea
    5. Hamas is funded by Iran
    6. Hamas purposely locates its arms in
    populated areas
    7. During the six-month cease fire, Hamas
    increased it’s stores of rockets
    8. Hamas deliberately targets Jewish
    civilians
    9 Firing rockets into a sovereign nation
    is an act of war, unless its Israel
    10. Israeli IDF forces target known Hamas
    Leaders and terrorist infrastructure
    and send warnings to civilians
    before taking an action
    11. Arab countries will not help Gazans
    12. Egypt closed their borders to Gazans
    after Israel’s withdrawal.

    Hey those of you sitting at your computers in NY, Co. Calif Iowa Fla, ect; how about terrorists firing hundreds of rockets in your city because they don’t like where you live?

    I know, I know – those Jews, huh? Perhaps they can mollify you with a proportionate response to the current conflict and just fire hundreds of rockets and mortar shells indiscriminately into Gaza? You know – a fair fight with warheads that really aren’t sophisticated and mortars than can only maim and kill just a few folks at a time.

    The double-standard applied to Israel by Larry et al is indicative of the blind acceptance of the way in which reality has been turned-on-its head when applied to the State of Israel. If those of you who rail against Israel aren’t anti-Semites, I can only assume that you are supporters of international terror, which, I guess, makes Al Quaida a victim of U.S. aggression. Perhaps our proportionate response to Bin Laden should be to fly a couple of planes into two of his biggest sky scrapers; and if he doesn’t have two sky scrapers, well – I guess that’s our bad. Oh, and if Al Quaida infiltrates the U.S. again, as they inevitably will, we should be more understanding of why the Great White Satan has picked on innocent Arabs, thereby forcing them to act .

    Please, spare your sanctimony and incredulity. Israel has been a democracy-under-siege for 60 years. You may not like Israel, quartered safe at your keyboards, with two oceans to protect you from the reality which has been Israels’ everyday of their existence.

    • basil

      Well-written!

  • Idiocracy08

    “The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, ‘there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.’ He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms.”

    David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that ‘in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,’ but he urged, ‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.’ The truth was that ‘politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’… The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality.”

    “In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that ‘after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine’…In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: ‘The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever.” Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

    “Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how ‘in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive…Arabs began to flee in terror…Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter’…

    “By 1948, the Jew was not only able to ‘defend himself’ but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, ‘in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes’…Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that ‘every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.’” Norman Finkelstein, “Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.”

    “That Ben-Gurion’s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose…most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants…even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence.” Israeli author, Simha Flapan, “The Birth of Israel.”

    “[Ben-Gurion stated] ‘If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second – because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.’ In the wake of the Kristallnacht pogroms, Ben-Gurion commented that ‘the human conscience’ might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: ‘Zionism is in danger.’” Israeli historian, Tom Segev, “The Seventh Million.”

  • EWard

    Mort

    I agree with James Lewis in the American Thinker that Israel will not risk a ground war with Hamas. Syria, Iran, and Hezbollah pose far greater threats to Israel than Hamas.

    What is your point in constantly bringing up Cheney?