This Will Teach Those Terrorists?

And where is your evidence of this Average?

Do you know the difference between anecdotal reference and empirical? Because you don’t demonstrate it very well.

And I didn’t state that the Average Palestinian wants anything regarding Israel…you did. Do you just do this all the time? Put words in people’s mouths and then argue with them?

I do believe the Average Palestinian wants to live in peace, but I didn’t qualify it beyond that.

I do know, and it is anecdotal, that there are many many Palestinians who get along just fine with Israelis and Jews because I work with both sides on a regular basis. But at least I’ll be the honest one of the two of us and admit that it is an anecdotal reference.

I’ll be looking forward to your excellent data charts showing how this “average Palestinian” is…since you are acting as an expert on the topic when you are obviously “misinformed” by your own biases.

NoBamaNoWay,

So you conclude all this from internet chats? Damn, no wonder…the Internet is filled with human mental shit. It isn’t exclusive to Arabs at all. Goddamn man, I read ignorant shit online all the time and wouldn’t think I should blame all the people from their cultural background for their misaligned bullshit.

If you have no scientific method about this, then stop saying Average Palestinians believe…and insert your view from the web…that is horseshit.

I read pretty hateful comments from Israelis and Jews. I even had a website I helped manage years back get hacked by Israeli supporters who wrote some pretty vile shit. But that doesn’t make them the voice of all Israelis or Jews. Only bigots think like that. That is a key sign if a prejudicial mind.

Now you switch your case from “average palestinian” to “average Arab” without any more evidence to back that up. Again, I think you should do us all a favor and just state what you believe should happen, and spend less time guessing at what Arabs believe or want based on reading Internet bullshit.

That’s my two sense.
“virtually NEVER see one saying that they are willing to live in peace with an Israeli state, you start to think that this may be representative of general arab opinion.”

The only problem with this thought though is that…just because you haven’t seen something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Many people have just pasted cooperative conversations between Palestinians and Israelis, did you ignore those too?

I have personally helped organize, promote, and performed in “concerts of peace” that had both Israeli and Palestinian musicians sitting side by side with me as we all played together. Do we simply not exist because you keep reading the hateful shit that validates your “anti-Arab” thoughts?

Look, I’m going to try and inroad here and say, I don’t gain shit by tearing you down and labeling you. But the fact that you are not only admitting that you are anti-Arab, and anti-Arab because of what you read on the internet….man…can we not see what is wrong with this picture?

I wish you well. I’m sorry we can’t engage in this conversation in less contentious manner, but I won’t be a PC asshole who can’t speak freely and I’m glad you did because you at least admit your bias.

I’m a bigot against bigots. I admit it. Guilty as charged. I’ve never really learned to have patience with bigots, and don’t really know how to have a meaningful dialogue with someone who has already counted out a portion of humanity as worthless trash. I grew up in the South where bigotry is around every single day, either as anti-Illegals, or anti-black, or anti-latino, or anti..something.

Assholes come in all shapes and colors, not just arab. I have worked for some Israeli assholes before…big time. That doesn’t justify me if I decide they are all assholes because I know that isn’t true.

I want Israelis to be able to live in Peace, not die in terror. I want them to be able to have a homeland. I’m not a zionist in the least, but I believe people should have a place that is home. I’m unwavering about that. But I’m equal in my desire that Palestinians have a home too. Two thoughts..one brain…not hard.

Good luck and thanks for your honesty. I’m being as brutally honest with you as I can. I hope you appreciate the frank discussion.

again, the exception does not disprove the rule. i visit arab language websites entirely randomly (usually randomly – sometimes i search for certain things). i might just search for “political discussion” (in arabic) and click on anything that is recent, and then i would stay on websites that have a fair amount of traffic (many of them have very little traffic).

anyway, when i first started reading them i really had no preconceptions about what i would find, but as i said, what i did find was an almost universal hard stance on israel, i.e., it has to go. it is possible that i could have somehow missed all the arab folks out there who would accept an israeli state in any way, shape, or form, but it seems hard to believe.

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/whoarewe.html

no I’m not a “liberal”.
I outgrew those categories long ago.

I still resist stereotyping, but largely because it is intellectually dishonest and prevents me from seeing moment to moment.

One can see patterns without having to cheat and insert memory in place of fact. Stereotypes draw from perverted memories instead of fact.

Yes, there are reality based generalizations that have their exceptions…Humans have two legs, two eyes, two arms…even though many don’t due to some reason or other…

But prejudice does not replace syllogistic thinking. Any thing that might be generalized one way may not be generalized in different settings.

In the basic syllogistic models we can divine the truth by mixing up the roles:
1 All humans are mortal
2. Aristotle is a human
3. Aristotle is a mortal.
but…
try it again
1. Human beings walk upright.
2. Steven Hawking is a human
3. Steven Hawking walks upright..
well..he doesn’t.

It breaks down in other circumstances.

And it is in this that I believe we must always be mindful about strategy and reality. When we conclude things a based on passed experiences we can eventually become unable to see the formation of prejudging, aka prejudice.

And since you listed descriptions of behavior you abhor…I agree with you about those being abhorrent behaviors. But I see those behaviors in many people who aren’t Arabs. I’ve been robbed by a Tibetan before! Tibetans are all peaceful right! And the fucker hated the Dalai Lama…I thought all Tibetans loved the Dalai Lama.
(note: the tibetan in question was living in a camp filled with despair and I would have given him the money anyway)

And you admit, thank you, that Sometimes Israel goes too far, and they should be condemned when they do…and that is what people are doing…they feel they over-corrected, and are condemning that overblown response. You have a different view about whether it is too much this time maybe, but there we go…difference of opinion again. And yet you agree that they do deserve to have their actions condemned when too far.

More agreement between us…we need to stop this or someone will think we could be friends.

I don’t believe there are “too many” Arabs who want this…because the numbers of Arabs who want this outweigh the nuclear threats and population resistance Israel could offer. Therefore, without actions to back it up, I cannot conclude that because loudmouth fanatics on the Arab side are so vocal and make for good TV, all Arabs feel the same way.

This lends to what is called in logic, “the Spotlight Fallacy”
This fallacy is committed when a generalization is made of the whole because of the media attention of a vocal few.

This happens a lot because the louder or more extreme the voice…the better news it can make and eventually people believe that voice might just represent the group it claims to come from. Yet it isn’t indicative of much outside loudmouth crap.

Thanks for your honesty and clarity about where you draw your opinion.

Again I know that exceptions don’t disprove the rule, but you haven’t demonstrated authority on Arabs. Even admitting you’ve never been to any of the Arab countries is enough for me because their culture doesn’t live on the Internet but in life.

There are many who don’t even have computers so how can their voice suddenly be reflected in internet posts?

And regarding the “into the sea”…I have Ariel Sharon on tape telling one of his military cabinet members that he didn’t care if they “pushed them into the sea”. I was stunned! I was really stunned.

It was an off the cuff comment made in anger after an attack and just at the start of a press conference where he was going to announce swift and decisive action…blah blah. But that he said this was, well, shocking.

Propaganda is a very interesting tool. Larry J can tell you that I’ve been very active in this blog creating videos and doing work to share a point of view. This is called Propaganda. I don’t subscribe to the idea that Propaganda is bad all though that is how we mostly relate to the word.
Pepsi ads are propaganda.

It is absolutely no surprise to me that Americans never hear voices of peace from Arab countries because how in the hell can you get a nation of notoriously narcissistic isolationists to go to war if you can’t get them to hate Arabs!

In order to get us to advocate for more war on Iraq or Syria or Libya, etc…you have to create the appearance of bad Arabs. This is basic propaganda. And what is worse…is there will be plenty of Arabs to lend to this image because assholes are everywhere.

I have worked with journalists for the last 7 or 8 years who traveled to Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, and Jordan, to cover all sorts of aspects of this cultural clash. My best friend is currently in Lebanon (today’s his birthday) doing radio for the UN and for smaller stations. I get reports back all the time from these friends and they differ highly from the mainstream news.

They don’t send back interpretations mind you, but raw video, raw audio interviews, and a network of people who have been doing this despite efforts to keep them from bringing in news.

While the rabid assholes here want us to believe Arabs want our blood to pour in the streets, it strikes me from watching hundreds of hours of videos from these countries, that they are actually heading towards a more dangerous path of consumerism and celebrity worship. Music CDs of rappers are huge in the Arab world these days. There are many who want to wear Nike and Air Jordans.

Now, I don’t know how many, but again, raw footage shot by my colleagues over the last decade reveal a very thick culture that cannot be sized up by internet posts, CNN news blips, and politician rhetoric. The world is so much bigger than this.

I too hope there is a sizable Arab majority who wants to have peace, but unlike you…I believe they are there and simply need us all to change the dialogue.

CheneyBushCo and others profit heavily off our hatred of Arabs. I don’t gain anything by doing so, either intellectually nor strategically.

Just speaking strategy only, no PC bullshit…we lost miserably by not being able to distinguish between Shia, Sunni, Sufi and Christian, when entering these countries. And that ignorance can be terminal.

Good strategy calls for knowing how to undermine the real enemy by not over-calculating their numbers or underestimating their numbers. It comes by not over-estimating their capabilities nor under-estimating their abilities. So simply strategically speaking, treating Palestinians this way, as all Hamas, isn’t going to ever help dethrone Hamas.

Again, thanks for your dialogue.

ok, one last thing; you are correct that what one reads on the internet does not represent the whole society. i am way ahead of you on that, but it seems to me that those arabs who are online (and from what i hear this is a small percentage) would tend to be younger, more educated, more affluent, and possibly even more liberal than the average arab. doesn’t that seem likely? so, it seems to me that the average joe on the street would probably view israel even less positively than these people. and you’re right about their consumer culture, etc., but i confine my observations mainly to political discussion pages, political sections of major newspapers, etc.

i also watch many arab TV broadcasts (on free-to-air satellite), and again, much hostility to israel, which is constantly being whipped up by repeated broadcasts of broken bodies being pulled out of wreckage, etc., – this is not to say that the REALITY of broken bodies doesn’t matter, but if US media did the same thing – showing up-close bloody american bodies from 911 or iraq/afghanistan, meanwhile playing martial music in the background and having Bush giving some hitleresque, spittle spraying rant against the people that did it, i suspect that you and i both would think that someone was trying to whip us into a frenzy of hatred against “the enemy” so we would go out and get even, and not pay any attention to what our own government was doing at home. this type of propaganda is standard fare on arab tv, and it works, just like the MSM sold america on the iraq war. regardless, of what the cause is, the average arab hates israel and wants to see it gone, IMO. it’s going to be an uphill battle to change that.

and btw, I don’t get my news from american propaganda. i NEVER watch american news. if i am going to watch TV news at all i usually watch aljazeera english, so i’m not sure who you’re directing that at. why do you think i bother to read what arabs have to say, if i was just going to take the MSM’s word on everything? and RE your journalist friends, well, i think i’m going to have to stereotype again – a lot of them are leftists and probably not inclined to be pro-israel.

lastly, realistically, if there was any remotely probable solution to this problem don’t you think they would have reached it by now, after 60 years? (i.e., let’s all get along…) look, the jews have moved on from far worse things that happened to them in WW2, and still the palestinians/arabs would rather destroy themselves than live in peace with isreal. you don’t see jews blowing up buses and pizza places in germany over what happened to them in WW2, do you? it is time for the arabs to move on, but they do not want to.

it’s been real. talk to you later.

NoBamaNoWay/tminu -

Thank you for breaking up truthtelling007′s seemingly endless diatribes.

It saddens me that you have done solid research and possess valuable skills on this subject, yet the blowhards keep trying to put us all to sleep.

truthtelling and the other endless ramblers are dull in every way, which is fair enough, but it requires so much scrolling to look for signs of intelligent life!

Mary,

Please spend a few moments educating yourself re: The Warsaw Ghetto, which you are so fond of frequently referring to as just like Palestine.

Anything else about you is of no concern to me, but please stop your horrific lies about the murders of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

Continue to insanely support a terrorist group that keeps women as property as you are so clearly possessed to do, but

Your lies are despicable.

You lay the blame for another USA terrorist attack at the feet of our country….for having open borders….which we have always had? Excuse me? Where is your outrage over the terrorists who will do such a thing? I cannot believe the crap I read here.

This is why I became a Republican this year for the first time. With all due respect to Ferd, who I enjoy very much, I can’t stand the America bashing anymore. Which seems to ALWAYS come from the left. When I am around my GOP friends, they are patriotic, hopeful and love America WARTS AND ALL. When I read all this nonsense from the left, it’s like Americans are nothing but pieces of crap who deserve to be blown off the planet with Israel. It’s rather disgusting and not really productive IMO.

Oh stop the melodrama. I was commenting about why there might be another attack. If you actually read what I wrote instead of having an emotional hissy-fit, you might get what I was actually saying.

We have done nothing to actually prevent such an attack except for creating another useless bureaucracy bent on ruining what was once a thriving airline industry. Moreover, one doesn’t stop such an attack by elminating basic Constitutional rights. The basics must be attended to first, which would, of necessity, include sealing our porous borders. You can make airlines as safe as you want but that is a miniscule accomplishment in the grand scheme of things. You might catch on terrorist while sifting through millions of bits of information culled from phone and internet activity. However, that is very little return for a huge investment in terms of money and lost rights.

Next time, instead of making a lot of asshat assumptions about a comment of mine, why don’t you ask for clarification? Oh, because you’re not interested in discussion, just ad hominems.

I cannot believe the crap I read here, indeed, troll.

You lay the blame for another USA terrorist attack at the feet of our country….for having open borders….which we have always had?

Yes I do because our elected officials have FAILED (screwed up, took their eye off the ball, acted busy but did nothing of substance) to:

1) Actively pursue the culprit behind 9/11 and
2) give us real security by doing the basics first.

Which part of FAILED do you not understand here?

Amen, Ferd. We’re very vulnerable to attack. Good to see your posts; I’ve missed your wit the past few days.

And MY point IS….we wouldn’t NEED TO secure our borders if the damn terrorist organizations didn’t exist…..you know, the groups that are supported on this site? THAT is WHY we will be attacked again…because Hamas, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah and their ILK exist and they hate us. That is where the ‘blame’ should solely lie. No terrorists to attack us? no need to secure our borders.

That’s not to say I don’t think our borders shouldn’t be secured. It’s to say the blame would lie with those who attack us.

I DID read your post:

however, it will only be because Democrats and Republicans failed to seal our borders after 9/11. Instead of trying to bring democracy to countries that neither want it nor us there, we should have applied corrective measures that had some hope of actually working. Feel-good measures like The Patriot Act and other such monstrosities certainly aren’t among such necessary corrections. I don’t think very many politicians get it. They like to look busy but think too highly of themselves to actually do something.

Amen, Ferd. We’re very vulnerable to attack. Good to see your posts; I’ve missed your wit the past few days.

Thank you, oowawa. I have been busy attending to work-related items recently and didn’t have time to join in on the discussions.

ferd

I don’t support open borders. Where did I say I support open borders?

I was making a point, apparently not clearly, that if we had another terrorist attack it wouldn’t be ONLY because we have open borders. THAT is not true. We would have another terrorist attack because the groups still exist and hate us. It wouldn’t be ONLY because of open borders. I lay the blame at the feet of those who choose to attack us. I support secure US borders.

I think that lazy azz ignorant Americans forget that we have the luxury of freedom to walk around without being bombed daily. I wonder what the wing nuts would do if WE lived that way? Would they still support Hamas, the PLO and terrorism against Israel?

You know, many Americans serve in the IDF. Why don’t you?

Here’s what happens to people who go to try to help Palestine:
http://www.rachelswords.org/2006/10/14/rachel-corrie-myths-and-facts/

Ferd, as I said…not directed towards you really. I just can’t stand hearing over and over that America is responsible for everything that goes wrong in the world. I’m proud of my country. Well, I WAS until the Fraudbama crap. Now I am just terrified about the next six months of my life.

corrections: acceptable to MANY….. Israel’s fault too

It’s completely unacceptable that ANY country lives like that and I think America owes it to the world to step in, stop this and prevent what could start WWIII. Of course I will get my ass handed to me for saying America should actually DO something to help others. Oh well.

I agree with your statement. The US can and should do more but it has to be as an objective mediator. There are real issues on both sides that need to be addressed. Can it be accomplished? I rather doubt it.

Ferd, I get the notion of being “objective,” however, I am just curious about what position of Hamas we would find supportable?

That’s what a good mediator would attempt to discern. Irrespective of who did what and when, there are two sides battling here, each for their own reasons. We need to find out those reasons and determine if there is any common ground to even start such mediation. Other than that, I don’t have any solutions.

They are nothing but murder machines from the day they are born.

Then there is no need to even make the attempt at mediation, imo. In this case, events will unfold in their due course.

Well, I wonder how much you would enjoy those rockets in YOUR back yard or in YOUR living room…….for YEARS on end. I suppose you would go and hug them and ask them what you could do to make them happy? THAT would be….convert to Islam or DIE. Your logic is just stupid.

Great comment Karma. The MSM stables need to be washed out.
I don’t know how the hell we are going to get decent media in this country, but it has to happen soon.
First they gave us the Iraq war and then Obama and now this crap.

I asked ‘geez….could you sound more like a neocon’….lol

I didn’t call you a neocon.

Can YOU read?

For someone who is so concerned about what labels are applied to you. You certainly have no probelms doing the same to others though.

Anyway, just like I was concerned about the Iraqi citizen when the US invaded, I am concerned for the Palestinian citizens. Why is that so hard to understand?

Just like I understand why some of the Iraqi citizens rose up and fought against our troops.

However, no one is claiming that someone with a rocket isn’t volunteering to die. Geez…when Larry posted several times a tactic to kill those volunteers. People like you went off the deep end that this was a pro-PLO, pro-Hama site.

Nevermind the fact that offering an example of how to kill a terrorist, isn’t being a terrorist sympathizer. But I do understand why they fight…because I have common sense and use it daily.

All these questions asked of what would you do if rockets landed?

Well, there is nothing wrong with asking, what would you do if an occupation force stole your home/farm?

Frankly, and I’ve said this before. I think Britain split apart Palestine to give the Middle East something to fight about. While the west stole the oil.

Under that theory, everyone there is a victim of a greedy plan to steal resources. So, I feel for them all. It isn’t their fault that both sides are set up to be target practice for the other

I am being consistant with my concern for all human life. And how those big money interests can have huge impacts on people’s lives.

In the US, big money, just picked a President, and ran off with what is left of the Treasury. Yes, I think we lucked out so far on what our citizens suffer verses the Israelis and Palestinians though.

No one went off the deep end you nut. I side with Israel as most people I know do. As I also pointed out in an article I posted. There is NO excuse for what has been done to Israel. And, quite frankly, I don’t consider Hamas “human life.” They are nothing but murdering, hate filled scum and I proudly stand against them. Also, no one has said this is a “pro PLO” or “pro Hamas” site. Another delusion by you and your so called progressive nonsense. Those of us who don’t agree with your crap have the right to do so and have expressed our thoughts. That’s why it’s AMERICA. And, like I said, if my father and how many other PATRIOTS didn’t fight against evil in WWII this would be a very different country. We can thank people like you who don’t take sides, and rant about all this humanity crap for that kind of patriotism disappearing. You made some really telling (idiotic IMO) comments about how “harmless” those rockets are that have been launched. ROFLMAO. What KIND of person SAYS something like that? That it’s OKAY as long as those rockets didn’t kill anyone. I pray for all of us that we don’t experience those “harmless” little rockets here in the US. But if we do, it’s thinking like yours, and excuses for terrorism, that will welcome it on us. And you can quit the Neocon crap. When people don’t join hands, sing Kumbaya and sympathize with terrorists it has nothing to do with party, etc. It has to do with being AMERICAN. Id you don’t like it, move to Cuba.

Ferd Berfle-

You stating the obvious:

Yes–had we not insisted on free elections (which Israel warned us against), Hamas would not be in power. Which part of that statement is giving you distinct difficulty?

Causes me NO difficulty.

I take exception with your fixation on making free elections the cause of Palestinian violence.

The UN supports free elections all over the Earth and condemns terrorist organizations.

You place blame on the US’s noble intentions for better treatment of Palestinians and improved relations in the ME through a free elections.

Obviously the US underestimated what utter pieces of shit a majority of Palestinian voters are.

I hold Hamas responsible for its own murderous acts.

I hold Hamas responsible for its despicable treatment of women and children.

You choose to blame me, “typical people like me”, and the US.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Yet again, more troll idiocy from LandOLincoln. I am a woman, for starters. And I think we’re all pretty clear on the IQ situation around here. As for the 16.7 thing? LMFAO…At the age of 16 I was a Sophomore in college, having started at 15. You? Thought so.

LandOLincoln…sigh…”babe?” WTF is up with THAT? Nah, I am in my 40′s but a lady never tells. And am I REALLY a “Rightwingnut?” How does that work when I am Pro-choice, Pro-gay-marriage, etc.? Hmmmm…maybe your fat mouth shouldn’t flap so much about your big IQ and all when you don’t know someone. ROFLMAO.

And I know a lot of jizzbrains who support Hamas and whine about Israel retaliating against the constant, daily assaults. Oh well.